MJ > defender and impact than Shaq (for reference purposes)

[3ball]

.
On the defensive end, the ADVANTAGE a big man gives his team compared to a wing player depends on how their defensive impact compares to other centers, not wing players.

For example, Shaq's team realizes no ADVANTAGE when his defensive impact is matched or exceeded by the opposing center.. This happened more often for him than it happened for MJ/Pippen/Lebron, since they ranked at the TOP of their position defensively, while he didn't - Shaq only achieved three 2nd team all defense in 17 years (no 1st teams).. So on average, perennial 1st team defenders like MJ/Pippen/Lebron gave their team a bigger advantage in defensive impact over the opposing wing, then Shaq's advantage over the opposing center, which means they provided their team with a bigger defensive impact.

Here's an example - look at the Ray Allen vs. Jordan DPBM comparison (-1.3 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Ray's teammate, center Ervin Johnson vs. Shaq (2.6 to Shaq's 1.6).. Now who provided the greater defensive impact to their team?????. Again, Shaq's team realizes no ADVANTAGE from his defensive impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.

Btw, I used the defensive boxscore stat to measure defensive impact because the verbage "defensive box score" makes it easy to conceptualize the advantage in defensive impact that a player can provide.. But ANY stat/methodology could be used to measure defensive impact - the main point is that we know elite defenders provided their teams with a bigger advantage in defensive impact over their matchup, then Shaq provided over his.

And the same concept applies to ANY elite defensive player that ranks higher defensively at their position than Shaq, who was not an elite defensive center.

Now obviously, MJ, Pippen and Lebron probably DON'T provide their team with a greater defensive impact than guys like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo - those guys were elite at their position AS WELL, and likely held a greater advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pip/Lebron held over opposing wings... But not Shaq - Shaq was NOT an elite defender like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo, so he didn't have a larger advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pippen/Lebron have over opposing wings.

Shaq was lazy with poor work ethic and only made three 2nd team all defense in 17 years (no 1st teams).. Consequently, his teams were never great defensive teams - they ranked in the league's top 6 defensive teams only 1 time in 15 years thru his Miami days, and top 10 only 7 times in 15 years.

There's no guarantee that if you drafted Shaq over Jordan, your team would be better defensively - infact, it's the opposite - Shaq's teams were far worse defensively over the course of his career than Jordan's, even though Shaq had all-pro defenders Eddie Jones, Kobe, Wade and Horace Grant (in 1995 and 1996).

He also had Alonzo Mourning in 2006, who led the Heat bench (2.7 blocks in 20 minutes).. In 2001, his team had the 21st ranked defense despite being stacked defensively with all-pro defender Kobe and other solid defenders like Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, and Horace Grant (he started every game).



Shaq's all-defensive teammates:

Horace Grant 2
Eddie Jones 2
Kobe Bryant 5
Dwayne Wade 1
________________
4 teammates.. 10 times... 4 of 15 seasons with zero all-def teammates




MJ's all-defensive teammates:

Scottie Pippen 6
Horace Grant 1
Dennis Rodman 1
_________________
3 teammates... 8 times... 5 of 11 seasons with zero all-def teammates




Shaq's team's defensive ranks thru his Miami days:

1993 Orlando: 12*
1994 Orlando: 15
1995 Orlando: 13
1996 Orlando: 12
1997 Lakers: 8*
1998 Lakers: 11
1999 Lakers: 23
2000 Lakers: 1
2001 Lakers: 21
2002 Lakers: 7
2003 Lakers: 19
2004 Lakers: 8
2005 Miami: 6
2006 Miami: 9*
2007 Miami: 8*
_________________
11.5 average

(asterisk means no all-defensive players on team)



Jordan's team's defensive ranks as Bull

1985 Bulls: 20*
1987 Bulls: 11*
1988 Bulls: 3*
1989 Bulls: 11*
1990 Bulls: 19*
1991 Bulls: 7
1992 Bulls: 4
1993 Bulls: 7
1996 Bulls: 1
1997 Bulls: 4
1998 Bulls: 3
_______________
8.18 average



A couple caveats:

1) Shaq had Alonzo Mourning on his team leading the bench in 2006 - Alonzo averaged an amazing 2.7 blocks in 20 minutes per game.

2) Shaq had Horace Grant starting every game for Lakers in 2001, with averages of 9/7, not far off his career averages of 11/8.. I'm not saying Horace was the all-pro defender he was in 1995 and 1996 alongside Shaq, but he was still solid, and added to the Lakers' roster of solid defender like Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, and obviously all-pro defender Kobe.

3) People say Pippen > Kobe defensively - well apparently, not relative to his competition, as evidenced by Kobe's equivalent number of 1st team all-defensive selections - when evaluating things in basketball, "relative to the competition" is the name of the game.


Conclusion: Considering Shaq had all-defensive wing teammates his entire career (and frontcourt player Horace in Orlando), there's no excuse for Shaq NOT being the difference that drove teams to elite defensive status like Hakeem, Robinson, and Ewing's did... Instead, his teams were almost NEVER great defensive teams - they were top 6 in defense 1 in 15 years (thru his Miami days) and top 10 only 7 times in 15 years.. Shaq simply wasn't a great defender relative to the elite defenders at his position and vastly underachieved defensively... Furthermore, his lack of work ethic and lazy mentality permeated his teams.

Otoh, Jordan's teams were rated higher defensively his entire career, despite having less all-defensive teammates.. This shouldn't be surprising since Jordan gave his team a bigger defensive boxscore advantage at his position, than Shaq gave his team at his position - Jordan was the far superior defender relative to his peers than Shaq, and his far superior work ethic/mentality rubbed off on the entire team.
.

[lilteapot]

Anyone know the recent cause of 0balls' insecurity with regards to Shaq?

[Jameerthefear]

1-9

[scandisk_]

Anyone know the recent cause of 0balls' insecurity with regards to Shaq?

He's an undercover bran stan. Not even Blitz is that dense.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

:oldlol:

Listing all-defensive teams along with defensive ratings (team) are horrible barometers to measure individual impact.

[3ball]

:oldlol:

Listing all-defensive teams along with defensive ratings (team) are horrible barometers to measure individual impact.
You didn't read the main argument before the all-defensive team listings and DRtg rankings - the all-defense and defensive ratings are merely circumstantial evidence to support my main premise:


On average, MJ gave his team a bigger defensive boxscore advantage at his position, than Shaq gave his team at his position, and therefore had the greater defensive impact


Keep in mind - MJ didn't give his team a bigger defensive advantage over his matchup than Hakeem or Robinson did (who were ALSO the best defenders at their position), and therefore didn't provide his team with greater defensive impact than those guys, just like PG John Paxson didn't give his team a bigger defensive advantage over his matchup than say, SF Kawhi, and therefore didn't provide a bigger defensive impact than Kawhi - the logic is sound.. Read the main argument ABOVE the circumstantial evidence of DRtg and all-defensive team listings.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Your entire OP is pure conjecture. You're throwing around stats that you simply have zero grasp on. BPM? A cheap knockoff of RAPM except that it doesn't separate team from individual. Its a stat relying heavily on box score numbers which also derive from TEAM.

To top it off you list defensive teams (hey kobe) and team defensive ratings like they mean anything when gauging individual impact. :oldlol:

Give us a decent argument and we'll acknowledge it :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

Your entire OP is pure conjecture. You're throwing around stats that you simply have zero grasp on. BPM? A cheap knockoff of RAPM except that it doesn't separate team from individual. Its a stat relying heavily on box score numbers which also derive from TEAM.

To top it off you list defensive teams (hey kobe) and team defensive ratings like they mean anything when gauging individual impact.

Give us a decent argument and we'll acknowledge it


There's no definitive argument or methodology to gauge defensive impact, including RAPM.. And just so you know - i only used DBPM because the "box score" verbage illustrated my point clearly..

But it doesn't matter what metric we use to gauge defensive impact - the point being made is the same - on average, Jordan's advantage in defensive impact over his matchup at SG was bigger than Shaq's was at center, which means he had a greater defensive impact than Shaq..

This point is underscored by Shaq's far weaker defensive ranking relative to his peers, his higher number of all-pro defenders, and his lazy/inferior work ethic that permeated his teams - all of this resulted in his teams being ranked lower defensively than Jordan's for their entire careers.

Btw, I'm not looking "acknowledgement" from you guys - you're are far from authorities on anything basketball, nor would you acknowledge a good argument from me anyway.
.

[navy]

Anyone know the recent cause of 0balls' insecurity with regards to Shaq?
:oldlol:

[3ball]

:oldlol:


It might seem like insecurity, but it was just me perusing the stats.nba.com website, and realizing "wow, old man MJ carried a far bigger load (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=396923) during his last 2 championships than prime Shaq did from 2000-2002." (much higher proportion of scoring... and also scoring + assists)

then I also realized that MJ's advantage in defensive impact over his matchup at SG was far bigger than Shaq's was at center, which means he gave his team a greater defensive impact than Shaq.

All this made me be like


http://blogimages.thescore.com/tbj/files/2010/08/antoine-tbj01.gif

[LAZERUSS]

Those Bulls teams had Piipen/Grant, both ELITE world-class defenders, and then Pippen/Rodman/Harper...all three world-class defenders. Hell, Rodman gave Sahq all he could handle.

So, MJ had FAR more help on the defensive end.

Of course, all we need to know about MJ's help... with an injury-deimated roster, they went 55-27 without him, and were one horrifically blown call (I honestly think he was paid off) away from a Finals, in which they likely would have won.

BTW, how good a defender was Shaq?


In his 26 career H2H's with Ewing,

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=onealsh01

Shaq outscored him on average by a 28.7 ppg to 21.4 ppg margin, and outshot him by a .542 to .444 margin.


How about against David Robinson?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=onealsh01

Shaq outscored him in their 23 regular season H2H's, 26.1 ppg to 18.6 ppg, and outshot him by a .536 to .470 margin.

In their 17 post-season H2H's, the margins were 24.7 ppg to 9.6 ppg, and .523 to .451.


And how about the great Hakeem?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=onealsh01

20 regular season H2H's... 22.1 ppg to 18.4 ppg, and .544 to .447.
8 post-season H2H's... 28.8 ppg to 23.0 ppg, and .556 to .465.


And how about a PEAK 2000 Shaq vs Robinson, Ewing, and Hakeem...

He held Robinson to a .457 FG% , Hakeem to a .333, and Ewing to a .324 !


BTW, perimeter defenders have nowhere near the defensive impact that elite defensive centers have.

Case closed.

[lilteapot]

MJ got crossed by someone way bigger and slower than him :lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NwgNLW9ASQ

[3ball]

Those Bulls teams had Piipen/Grant, both ELITE world-class defenders, and then Pippen/Rodman...all world-class defenders.

So, MJ had FAR more help on the defensive end.


^^^ Not true - Shaq had Horace Grant in Orlando for 2 years (1995 and 1996), and those were the 2 years Horace was all-nba defender.

Then he had all-nba defender Eddie Jones, Kobe and Horace Grant in LA.. And then Wade and Alonzo in Miami.





BTW, how good a defender was Shaq?


He wasn't an elite defender at the center position - he only made three 2nd team all-defense in his 17-year career (no 1st teams) and his teams were almost never great defensive teams..

His teams were only top 6 in defense once in his entire career, and top 10 in defense 7 times in 15 years (thru his Miami days).

Otoh, Jordan WAS an elite defender at his position (the best), so he gave his team a bigger defensive boxscore advantage at his position, than Shaq gave his team at his position - as an example, look at the Ray Allen vs. Jordan DBPM comparison (-1.3 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Ray's teammate, C Ervin Johnson vs. Shaq (2.6 to Shaq's 1.6).. This type of discrepancy exists for nearly every team in the league.

Btw, it doesn't matter what metric we use to measure defensive impact - the point is the same - on average, Jordan's advantage in defensive impact over his matchup at SG was bigger than Shaq's was at center, which means he had a greater defensive impact than Shaq..





perimeter defenders have nowhere near the defensive impact that elite defensive centers have.


Shaq was NOT an elite defender at his position - so on average, Jordan's advantage in defensive impact over the opposing SG was bigger than Shaq's was at center, which means he had a greater defensive impact than Shaq.

Otoh, Hakeem and Robinson > defenders than MJ because those guys WERE the best defensive players at their position just like Jordan was, and their defensive boxscore advantage over other centers was likely bigger than Jordan's advantage over other SG's..

So if you replaced Jordan with Hakeem or Robinson, the Bulls would be a better defensive team.. But not Shaq - since he WASN'T an elite defender at his position like Jordan, his defensive boxscore advantage over the opposing center was less than the advantage Jordan had over the opposing SG, which means Jordan was giving his team a bigger defensive impact.

Similarly, we know SF Kawhi is > defender than PG John Paxson, because Kawhi's advantage in defensive impact over the opposing SF was bigger than Paxson's was at PG (and obviously Paxson was at a deficit most nights vs. the opposing PG's defensive impact).

Jordan's greater impact is seen by the RESULTS - Shaq's teams were far worse defensively over the course of his career than Jordan's, even when Shaq had the same kind of defensive help - Horace Grant, Eddie Jones, Kobe, Wade, and Alonzo Mourning - all-nba defenders.
.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Lakers Horace Grant was like 70% of the Bulls Horace Grant Jordan had. Unfair comparison. Heck, they bought back Grant in 2004 but at that point he was washed out. He was a good rebounder/plus defender with a good midrange system. He was better than Samaki Walker as a player and he was far more knowledgeable about the Triangle.

[3ball]

Lakers Horace Grant was like 70% of the Bulls Horace Grant Jordan had. Unfair comparison. Heck, they bought back Grant in 2004 but at that point he was washed out. He was a good rebounder/plus defender with a good midrange system. He was better than Samaki Walker as a player and he was far more knowledgeable about the Triangle.


You're forgetting that Shaq had PRIME, all-defense Horace Grant in Orlando - those were the 2 years Horace made all-defense (he only made it one year in Chicago - re-read the OP).

Then Shaq had all-defensive 1st teamer Kobe in LA.

And all-nba defender Wade in Miami... He also had Alonzo leading the Miami bench with 2.7 blocks per game in 20 minutes - it's a massive luxury to have a deluxe, HOF center like that coming off your bench.

[HenryGarfunkle]

Just awful.

You're not even amusing anymore. This is just cringe material. :facepalm

Kill yourself

[3ball]

Just awful.

You're not even amusing anymore. This is just cringe material. :facepalm

Kill yourself
You're just not smart enough to understand the point I'm making.

It makes no sense to compare the defensive impact of centers and guards directly, because they aren't matched up in the games.

Centers are matched up with other centers, and therefore the only thing that matters is how great their edge is over the opposing center... If their edge is smaller than the edge the SG has over the opposing SG, then the SG has the bigger impact.

In Shaq's case, he wasn't an elite defensive center along the likes of Robinson, Hakeem, Dikembe, Alonzo, etc... But Jordan was the best defensive SG in the league - therefore, Jordan gave his team a bigger advantage in defensive impact vs. the opposing SG, than Shaq did vs. the opposing center.

[Boogey]

BTW, perimeter defenders have nowhere near the defensive impact that elite defensive centers have.

Case closed.isnt that common knowledge?

[AirBonner]

I wonder what the lakers record would of been without shaq :lol

[Rocketswin2013]

You're just not smart enough to understand the point I'm making.

It makes no sense to compare the defensive impact of centers and guards directly, because they aren't matched up in the games.

Centers are matched up with other centers, and therefore the only thing that matters is how great their edge is over the opposing center... If their edge is smaller than the edge the SG has over the opposing SG, then the SG has the bigger impact.

In Shaq's case, he wasn't an elite defensive center along the likes of Robinson, Hakeem, Dikembe, Alonzo, etc... But Jordan was the best defensive SG in the league - therefore, Jordan gave his team a bigger advantage in defensive impact vs. the opposing SG, than Shaq did vs. the opposing center.
what the **** are you talking about 3ball? you do realize it's defense vs. offense not defense vs. defense.

Mutumbo's defensive ability means nothing when Shaq is protecting the rim, and destroying him, which is what Shaq did a lot of in his best years.

if whatever you are saying makes sense, you are doing a terrible job in explaining it.

[3ball]

what the **** are you talking about 3ball? you do realize it's defense vs. offense not defense vs. defense.

Mutumbo's defensive ability means nothing when Shaq is protecting the rim, and destroying him, which is what Shaq did a lot of in his best years.

if whatever you are saying makes sense, you are doing a terrible job in explaining it.


What good is Shaq's "destroying" on defense if Mutombo is "destroying" even more?

Shaq's defensive impact is inferior to Mutombo's.

But Jordan's is far superior to Abdul-Rauf's.

Therefore, Jordan is providing greater defensive impact to his team, than Shaq is to his..

There's a reason Shaq's teams were only top 6 in defense once in 15 years (thru his Miami days).

[AirBonner]

What good is Shaq's "destroying" on defense if Mutombo is "destroying" even more?

Shaq's defensive impact is inferior to Mutombo's.

But Jordan's is far superior to Abdul-Rauf's.

Therefore, Jordan is providing greater defensive impact to his team, than Shaq is to his..

There's a reason Shaq's teams were only top 6 in defense once in 15 years (thru his Miami days).
The Bulls were one bad call away to making the finals without his superior defensive impact :lol

[LAZERUSS]

^^^ Not true - Shaq had Horace Grant in Orlando for 2 years (1995 and 1996), and those were the 2 years Horace was all-nba defender.

And guess what...

Grant DESTROYED Jordan's Bulls in the '95 ECSF's. AND, had he not been injured in game one of the '96 ECF's, he likely would have been enough to help Shaq pummel the Bulls in that series. AS it was, the Bulls HAD to get an all-world defensive PF, in Rodman, to even get back to the ECF's in '96. And as we witnessed, when Shaq was killing the Bull's helpless centers...in came RODMAN to the rescue. And that was ONLY because Grant, in was injured in game one of that series.

Grant's defense >>>>> MJ's.

There was a reason why MJ went 1-9 in his first 10 playoff games (and was destroyed by an elite defender in Mongrief in one of them)...he didn't have all-world defensive anchors like Pippen, Grant, nor Rodman. And he desperately needed them in his from '96 thru '98, when he couldn't shoot worth shit in his Finals. THEY saved his sorry ass.

Once again...MJ had, BY FAR, the greatest supporting casts in the very watered down 90's. That could challenge for titles without him.

Now, move on to something that you actually have knowledge of, and quit pestering the more intelligent posters on this forum.

[LAZERUSS]

What good is Shaq's "destroying" on defense if Mutombo is "destroying" even more?

Shaq's defensive impact is inferior to Mutombo's.

But Jordan's is far superior to Abdul-Rauf's.

Therefore, Jordan is providing greater defensive impact to his team, than Shaq is to his..

There's a reason Shaq's teams were only top 6 in defense once in 15 years (thru his Miami days).

Maybe you better re-watch the '01 Finals. Shaq just BRUTALIZED Motumbo. Oh, and he not only scored at will against him, he outrebounded him, AND, he outblocked him.

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, in the few times in his post-season career that Jordan actually faced an elite defender, he was destroyed by Mongrief ;..and in the '96 Finals, after Karl FINALLY put Payton on him...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2014/08/21/how-putting-gary-payton-on-michael-jordan-sooner-could-have-changed-the-1996-nba-finals/


Not to pick at old scab, Seattle residents, but you have to wonder how Seattle would’ve fared had Payton defended Jordan the entire series. Just look at Jordan’s numbers:

First three games: 31 points, 46 fg%, 50 3fg%, 12.3 FTA.
Last three games: 23.7 points, 36.7 fg%, 11.1 3fg% 10 FTA.

[AirBonner]

Shaq wasn't an elite defender at his position!

Also, understand that centers are matched up with other centers, and therefore the only thing that matters is how great their edge in defensive impact is over the opposing center... If their edge is smaller than the edge the SG has over the opposing SG, then the SG provided the bigger defensive impact to his team.

Unlike Jordan, Shaq wasn't an elite defender at his position (along the likes of Robinson, Hakeem, Dikembe, Alonzo, etc).. So on average, Jordan gave his team a bigger advantage in defensive impact vs. the opposing SG, than Shaq did vs. the opposing center.

As an example, look at the Ray Allen vs. Jordan DBPM comparison (-1.3 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Ray's teammate, C Ervin Johnson vs. Shaq (2.6 to Shaq's 1.6)..

Who provided the greater defensive impact to their team??.. Now obviously, if this WERE an elite defensive center like Hakeem instead of Shaq, then Hakeem would likely provide the greater impact.. But again, Shaq was NOT an elite defender at his position like Jordan was, hence Jordan having the bigger advantage in defensive impact in his matchup.

Btw, it doesn't matter what metric we use here to measure defensive impact - the point is the same - on average, Jordan's advantage in defensive impact over the opposing SG was bigger than Shaq's was at center, which means he had a greater defensive impact for this team than Shaq.
Jordan didn't have the biggest defensive impact on his own team. There you go again ignoring his teammates.

[K Xerxes]

It's a curious argument. Hypothetically, if the league was full of James Harden type perimeter players and Ben Wallace type big men, a decent to good perimeter defender like John Wall would be considered a better defender than say a Duncan or Garnett. Once again it's absurd logical gymnastics

[3ball]

he was destroyed by Mongrief in every facet of the game...and in the '96 Finals, after Karl FINALLY put Payton on him...


You're citing exceptions to the rule, which makes my point.

On average, Jordan was a far superior defender compared to opposing SG's, than Shaq was compared to opposing centers.

Btw, Jordan wasn't destroyed by Moncrief - Moncrief averaged 26/5/5 on a highly abnormal 73% ts with his stacked squad.. But rookie Jordan carried the far bigger load and averaged 29/6/9 on 57% ts, and that was his very first playoff series where he was facing the 2-time defending DPOY (Moncrief).

In 1996, Payton was in desperation mode, while Jordan was relaxing in garbage time - he knew the series was over after getting the Bulls a 3-0 lead by averaging 31 ppg on 46%... The Jordan/Payton matchup would've gone differently if they were matched up from the start of the series - and it surely wouldn't have turned a blowout 3-0 lead into a Sonics victory.





BTW, in the few times in his post-season career that Jordan actually faced an elite defender


MJ faced a ton of elite defenders, including the combination of Dumars/Rodman each playoffs from 1988-1991, when averaged 30/6/6 on 50%.
.

[pastis]

3ball is Michael Jordan. That would explain his narcisstic behavior.

Hey, Michael:


























































































































































1-9 :yaohappy:

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

[3ball]

Isn't it common knowledge that elite centers provide greater defensive impact than perimeter players?


Shaq wasn't an elite defender at his position!

Also, understand that centers are matched up with other centers, and therefore the only thing that matters is how great their edge in defensive impact is over the opposing center... If their edge is smaller than the edge the SG has over the opposing SG, then the SG provided the bigger defensive impact to his team.

Unlike Jordan, Shaq wasn't an elite defender at his position (along the likes of Robinson, Hakeem, Dikembe, Alonzo, etc).. So on average, Jordan gave his team a bigger advantage in defensive impact vs. the opposing SG, than Shaq did vs. the opposing center.

As an example, look at the Ray Allen vs. Jordan DBPM comparison (-1.3 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Ray's teammate, C Ervin Johnson vs. Shaq (2.6 to Shaq's 1.6)..

Who provided the greater defensive impact to their team??.. Now obviously, if this WERE an elite defensive center like Hakeem instead of Shaq, then Hakeem would likely provide the greater impact.. But again, Shaq was NOT an elite defender at his position like Jordan was, hence Jordan having the bigger advantage in defensive impact in his matchup.

Btw, it doesn't matter what metric we use here to measure defensive impact - the point is the same - on average, Jordan's advantage in defensive impact over the opposing SG was bigger than Shaq's was at center, which means provided his team with greater defensive impact than Shaq.

[3ball]

It's a curious argument. Hypothetically, if the league was full of James Harden type perimeter players and Ben Wallace type big men, a decent to good perimeter defender like John Wall would be considered a better defender than say a Duncan or Garnett. Once again it's absurd logical gymnastics


That isn't absurd - think about what you just said.

If all the league's perimeter defenders were James Harden or JJ Redicks on defense, a Jimmy Butler or Tony Allen-type defender would allow their team's perimeter defense to be amazingly better relative to all the other teams..

Otoh, everyone's frontcourt defense would be more of a wash by comparison, so Duncan and Wallace wouldn't be providing as big of a value-add impact to their teams as Butler does for his.

And btw, we aren't comparing Jordan to Wallace or Duncan.. We're comparing Jordan to Shaq, who was NOT an elite defender on the level of Wallace or Duncan.. It's Shaq's NON-elite status that allowed Jordan to have a larger advantage over his matchup most nights than Shaq did.. And just look at the results - Shaq's teams were almost never that good defensively and worse than Jordan's for their entire careers.
.

[AirBonner]

Shaq wasn't an elite defender at his position!

Also, understand that centers are matched up with other centers, and therefore the only thing that matters is how great their edge in defensive impact is over the opposing center... If their edge is smaller than the edge the SG has over the opposing SG, then the SG provided the bigger defensive impact to his team.

Unlike Jordan, Shaq wasn't an elite defender at his position (along the likes of Robinson, Hakeem, Dikembe, Alonzo, etc).. So on average, Jordan gave his team a bigger advantage in defensive impact vs. the opposing SG, than Shaq did vs. the opposing center.

As an example, look at the Ray Allen vs. Jordan DBPM comparison (-1.3 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Ray's teammate, C Ervin Johnson vs. Shaq (2.6 to Shaq's 1.6)..

Who provided the greater defensive impact to their team??.. Now obviously, if this WERE an elite defensive center like Hakeem instead of Shaq, then Hakeem would likely provide the greater impact.. But again, Shaq was NOT an elite defender at his position like Jordan was, hence Jordan having the bigger advantage in defensive impact in his matchup.

Btw, it doesn't matter what metric we use here to measure defensive impact - the point is the same - on average, Jordan's advantage in defensive impact over the opposing SG was bigger than Shaq's was at center, which means provided his team with greater defensive impact than Shaq.
Jordan was arguably the 3rd best defender on his team

[3ball]

Jordan was arguably the 3rd best defender on his team
Grant only made one 2nd team all-defensive team on the Bulls (1993).. Also, even though Grant/Pippen were good individual defenders, they didn't galvanize the entire team to raise the level of their play... That was Jordan's role as the primary leader of the team.

And that's one of the reasons Shaq's teams weren't great defensive teams - his laziness and lack of work ethic permeated the team and caused himself personally to underachieve defensively.

Btw, Rodman was 34-36 years old when he joined Bulls and he didn't make any all defense teams in 1997 or 1998.. He wasn't even a starter anymore in 1998 playoffs and averaged 4/8 in entire 1997 playoffs and 1998 Finals.

His last good year was 1996.. After that, he was the same washed up garbage he was for the 1999 Lakers, but no one noticed because the Bulls were 3-peating

[Smoke117]

1-9

[jlip]

Weren't the '94 Bulls a better defensive team than the '93 Bulls?

[3ball]

Weren't the '94 Bulls a better defensive team than the '93 Bulls?


No - the Bulls' DRtg in 1994 (6th) wasn't any better relative to the league than the first 3-peat (7th, 4th, 7th).. Accordingly, the massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due entirely to the absence of MJ's goat offense (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12082990&postcount=185), which caused their ORtg to crater from #1 all-time (during the 3-peat) to 14th in the league in 1994.

Keep in mind that teams have a finite amount of energy to expend on both ends - shifts in performance/effort on one side normally take away from the other side.. But even though the Bulls offense fell off a cliff in 1994 and they focused more on defense, their defense didn't improve relative to the league because they were missing their best defender (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s).

Otoh, the presence of MJ gave the Bulls the highest ORtg's of all time.. But this GOAT improvement on offense didn't come at the expense of defense like it would for most teams.. His presence enabled a TWO-WAY team, which isn't surprising, since he's the goat two-way player according to Popovich (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11875095&postcount=46).

So imagine Kawhi Leonard (as Popovich references), with the capability of scoring 15 more ppg.. That's Jordan... That's the GOAT.

[AirBonner]

No - the Bulls' DRtg in 1994 (6th) wasn't any better relative to the league than the first 3-peat (7th, 4th, 7th).. Accordingly, the massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due entirely to the absence of MJ's goat offense (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12082990&postcount=185), which caused their ORtg to crater from #1 all-time (during the 3-peat) to 14th in the league in 1994.

Keep in mind that teams have a finite amount of energy to expend on both ends - shifts in performance/effort on one side normally take away from the other side.. But even though the Bulls offense fell off a cliff in 1994 and they focused more on defense, their defense didn't improve relative to the league because they were missing their best defender (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s).

Otoh, the presence of MJ gave the Bulls the highest ORtg's of all time.. But this GOAT improvement on offense didn't come at the expense of defense like it would for most teams.. His presence enabled a TWO-WAY team, which isn't surprising, since he's the goat two-way player according to Popovich (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11875095&postcount=46).

So imagine Kawhi Leonard (as Popovich references), with the capability of scoring 15 more ppg.. That's Jordan... That's the GOAT.
You posted this in another thread. Why make a thread with the same bs copy and pastes?

[Duffy Pratt]

Weren't the '94 Bulls a better defensive team than the '93 Bulls?

94 Bulls gave up five fewer points per game. They were 6th in the league, as opposed to 7th. So by either objective, or relative, standards, they were a better defensive team in 94 than 93.

The real absurdity of 3Balls argument is this. He is saying that if Tony Allen gets hurt, that increases LaMarcus Aldridge's defensive impact.

[LAZERUSS]

94 Bulls gave up five fewer points per game. They were 6th in the league, as opposed to 7th. So by either objective, or relative, standards, they were a better defensive team in 94 than 93.

The real absurdity of 3Balls argument is this. He is saying that if Tony Allen gets hurt, that increases LaMarcus Aldridge's defensive impact.

You obviously haven't read the Book of Goofball, have you?

Here is how it works...

Using his advanced math system...

The '93 Bulls allowed 98.9 ppg and had a defensive rating of 106.1

The '94 Bulls allowed 94.9 ppg and had a defenisve rating of 102.7

That means that the '93 Bulls were a better defensive team.

Or... 2 - 2 = 4.



Of course, using reality and it was..."the PETE MYERS effect." . The '94 Bulls were a better defensive team because they replaced a defensive liability with a defensive stopper.

[TommyGriffin]

Shaq was a huge liability in pick and roll situations.

[3ball]

Shaq was a huge liability in pick and roll situations.


Which brings up another point - today's 3-point shooters and incessant, high screen rolls bring defenders out to the perimeter - big men don't stand in the paint on defense like they used to, which would hurt Shaq a lot - shaq's big ass taking up space in the lane was the #1 reason for any impact he had defensively in his era.

And obviously, Shaq was a massive liability in screen-roll situations (like you said), which has become the staple of every team's offense - so clearly, in TODAY'S era, his defensive impact would even more underwhelming than it was when he played.

Btw, every single thing I've said about MJ having superior defensive impact than Shaq applies to Pippen too - just like MJ, Pippen was ALSO the best defender at his position, and therefore gave his team a bigger advantage in defensive impact vs. the opposing SF, than Shaq did vs. the opposing center.
.

[3ball]

The '93 Bulls allowed 98.9 ppg and had a defensive rating of 106.1

The '94 Bulls allowed 94.9 ppg and had a defenisve rating of 102.7

That means that the '93 Bulls were a better defensive team.


^^^ The above is junior high-level acumen - who cares if the Bulls allowed less points in 1994 with lower DRtg, IF THE REST OF THE LEAGUE DID TOO (league ppg declined from 105.3 to 101.5 - and DRtg declined from 108.0 to 106.3)... That's why the Bulls ranking relative to the rest of the league is what matters.

So again - the data is irrefutable - the Bulls' defensive ranking in 1994 (6th) wasn't any better relative to the league than the first 3-peat (7th, 4th, 7th).. Accordingly, the massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due entirely to the absence of MJ's goat offense (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12082990&postcount=185), which caused their ORtg to crater from #1 all-time (during the 3-peat) to 14th in the league in 1994.
.

[Lebron23]

http://outsidethehype.com/wp-content/gallery/greatest_intro/shaqvsjordan.jpg

[AirBonner]

http://images.complex.com/complex/image/upload/t_article_image/cwcffq9foazqbjqegqii.jpg
:pimp:

[3ball]

http://outsidethehype.com/wp-content/gallery/greatest_intro/shaqvsjordan.jpg



http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-10-2015/LfHlds.gif

[3ball]

The '93 Bulls allowed 98.9 ppg and had a defensive rating of 106.1

The '94 Bulls allowed 94.9 ppg and had a defenisve rating of 102.7

That means that the '93 Bulls were a better defensive team.


^^^ This is junior high-level competence - who cares if the Bulls allowed less points in 1994 with lower DRtg, IF THE REST OF THE LEAGUE DID TOO (league ppg declined from 105.3 to 101.5 - and DRtg declined from 108.0 to 106.3).

If Jordan had been there in 1994, the Bulls' ppg-allowed and drtg would've declined commensurately with the rest of the league - ppg-allowed wouldn't have gone UP with Jordan, when the rest of the league was going down.. That's why the Bulls ranking relative to the rest of the league is what matters.

So again - the Bulls' defensive ranking in 1994 (6th) wasn't any better relative to the league than the first 3-peat (7th, 4th, 7th).. Accordingly, the massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due entirely to the absence of MJ's goat offense (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12082990&postcount=185), which caused their ORtg to crater from #1 all-time (during the 3-peat) to 14th in the league in 1994..
.

[3ball]

And as far as their defense, as your assesment, how impactful could Jordan have been defensively if the Bulls didn't miss a beat statistically?


In 1994, the Bulls' lack of statistical change on defense relative to the league shouldn't make you think that Jordan didn't improve the Bulls capacity on defense - it should make you scratch your head to find PLAUSIBLE reasons for their unchanged status relative to the league.

You wouldn't have to look that far for good reasons - the 1993 Bulls were half-assing the regular season and waiting for the playoffs before turning it on, which they did by beating two teams with superior records (60+ win Knicks and Suns)... Otoh, the 1994 Bulls couldn't afford to half-ass it and played extremely hard the entire season.

But despite exerting far more effort, the impact of Jordan's absence was obvious because their defensive ranking (6th) was barely any better relative to the league than 1993 (7th) and essentially unchanged compared to 1992/1991 (4th, 7th).. Accordingly, the massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due almost entirely to the absence of MJ's goat offense (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12082990&postcount=185), which caused their ORtg to crater from #1 all-time (during the 3-peat) to 14th in the league in 1994.

[3ball]

Lebron might ALSO have greater defensive impact than Shaq, based on the same logic I used for Jordan..

Again, Shaq's team realizes no ADVANTAGE from his rim-protecting impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.. Since Lebron likely ranks higher among SF's defensively than Shaq did among centers, he similarly provides his team with a greater advantage in defensive impact over the opposing SF, than Shaq does over the opposing center, meaning Lebron has greater defensive impact than Shaq.

Here's an example of the concept that could apply to Lebron - look at the Ray Allen vs. Jordan DBPM comparison (-1.3 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Ray's teammate, C Ervin Johnson vs. Shaq (2.6 to Shaq's 1.6).. Now who provided the greater defensive impact to their team??.. Shaq's team realizes no advantage from his rim-protecting impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.

Btw, I used the defensive boxscore stat to measure defensive impact because the verbage "defensive box score" makes it easy to conceptualize the advantage in defensive impact a player can provide.. But ANY stat/methodology could be used to measure defensive impact - the point is that we know elite defenders provided their teams with a bigger advantage in defensive impact over their matchup, then Shaq provided over his.

And the same concept applies to Pippen, or ANY elite defensive player that ranks higher defensively at their position than Shaq, who was not an elite defensive center.

Now obviously, MJ, Pippen and Lebron probably DON'T provide their team with a greater defensive impact than guys like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo - those guys were elite at their position AS WELL, and likely held a greater advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers... But not Shaq - he was lazy with poor work ethic and only made three 2nd team all defense in 17 years (no 1st teams).. Consequently, his teams were never great defensive teams (ranked in top 6 once in 15 years, thru his Miami days).
.

[Dr Hawk]

Lebron might ALSO have greater defensive impact than Shaq, based on the same logic I used for Jordan.. Lebron likely ranks higher among SF's defensively, than Shaq did among centers.. So he might similarly provide his team with a greater defensive boxscore advantage over the opposing SF, than Shaq does over the opposing center, meaning Lebron has greater defensive impact than Shaq.

Here's an example of the concept that could apply to Lebron - look at the Ray Allen vs. Jordan DBPM comparison (-1.3 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Ray's teammate, C Ervin Johnson vs. Shaq (2.6 to Shaq's 1.6).. Now who provided the greater defensive impact to their team??.. Shaq's team realizes no advantage from his rim-protecting impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.

Btw, I used the defensive boxscore stat to measure defensive impact because the verbage "defensive box score" makes it easy to conceptualize the advantage in defensive impact a player can provide.. But ANY stat/methodology could be used to measure defensive impact - the point is that we know elite defenders provided their teams with a bigger advantage in defensive impact over their matchup, then Shaq provided over his.

And the same concept applies to Pippen, or ANY elite defensive player that ranks higher defensively at their position than Shaq, who was not an elite defensive center.

Now obviously, MJ, Pippen and Lebron probably DON'T provide their team with a greater defensive impact than guys like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo - those guys were elite at their position AS WELL, and likely held a greater advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers... But not Shaq - he was lazy with poor work ethic and only made three 2nd team all defense in 17 years (no 1st teams).. Consequently, his teams were never great defensive teams (ranked in top 6 once in 15 years, thru his Miami days).

We are talking about PEAK Shaq here. 2000 Lakers were the best defensive team in the entire league, led by peak Shaq

[3ball]

We are talking about PEAK Shaq here. 2000 Lakers were the best defensive team in the entire league, led by peak Shaq


Who said we're talking peak Shaq?.. It doesn't say that anywhere

(I think you're confusing this thread to the other thread, where we showed (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=396923) that old MJ carried a bigger offensive load to win rings in 97' & 98', than prime Shaq from 00'-02').

But in this thread, we're talking about their entire careers (well, the OP says Jordan as a Bull and Shaq's career thru his Miami days).

And the ultimate objective is simple - we already know MJ carried the greater load offensively, and now we're proving he had a greater impact defensively as well (along with Pippen, Lebron, and any elite defender at their position had a bigger impact than non-elite defender Shaq).

Btw, 2000 was the only year of Shaq's career (thru his Miami days, so 15 years) where his team was top 6 defensively - his teams were basically never great def teams, which underscores the point being made itt.

[Dr Hawk]

Wrong thread then, my bad.

I agree Jordan was overall, throughout his career, a more impactful defender than Shaq, but peak Shaq was a better defender than 97-98' Jordan.

Sorry for that last off-topic

[3ball]

Wrong thread then, my bad.

I agree Jordan was overall, throughout his career, a more impactful defender than Shaq, but peak Shaq was a better defender than 97-98' Jordan.

Sorry for that last off-topic


Only in 2000 - in 2001, the Lakers had the 21st ranked defense in the league..

2000 was the only year Shaq's team had a top 6 defense in his entire career.. And Shaq's teams only had a top 10 defense 7 out of 15 years (thru his Miami days)..

But yeah, he nutted up for 1 year in 2000 and gave a full-out effort.. That was his first year with Phil.. But after that, it was back to the same old Shaq - they dropped to 21st in league in 2001.

It's interesting because 2000 was also the only year his OFFENSIVE load (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=396923) was close to old man Jordan's 1997/1998 load (still not matching it)... But just like his defense, his offensive load fell off a cliff in 2001 and 2002 compared to 2000, particularly in the 4th quarters.

[AirBonner]

you have to cherry pick just to make a case :roll:

[3ball]

you have to cherry pick just to make a case :roll:
You should read the previous posts before commenting - dr. hawk said mj had the greater defensive impact than shaq throughout his career, except for shaq's prime vs. MJ's 1997/1998.

I responded by saying only Shaq's 2000 defense was better than MJ's 1997/1998, since the Lakers' defense dropped to 21st in 2001.

2000 was the only year Shaq's team had a top 6 defense (they were #1 that year)..

It's interesting because 2000 was ALSO the only year his OFFENSIVE load (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=396923) was close to old man Jordan's 1997/1998 load (still not matching it)... But just like his defense, his offensive load fell off a cliff in 2001 and 2002 compared to 2000, particularly in the 4th quarters.

[AirBonner]

You should read the previous posts before commenting - dr. hawk said mj had the greater defensive impact than shaq throughout his career, except for shaq's prime vs. MJ's 1997/1998.

I responded by saying only Shaq's 2000 defense was better than MJ's 1997/1998, since the Lakers' defense dropped to 21st in 2001.

2000 was the only year Shaq's team had a top 6 defense (they were #1 that year)..

It's interesting because 2000 was ALSO the only year his OFFENSIVE load (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=396923) was close to old man Jordan's 1997/1998 load (still not matching it)... But just like his defense, his offensive load fell off a cliff in 2001 and 2002 compared to 2000, particularly in the 4th quarters.
If Jordan was truly better you wouldn't feel the need to do this absurd comparison. You are threatened by Shaq. He is clearly better.

[3ball]

you have to cherry pick


I don't cherry pick.

It isn't cherry-picking to compare the larger load that old MJ carried during his 1997 and 1998 championship runs to Shaq's 2000-2002 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12099386&postcount=151), or Lebron's 2012 & 2013 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12095171&postcount=1) runs.

It isn't cherry-picking to compare overall stats for prime vs. prime (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12055910&postcount=35) - Jordan's 6-year prime (1988-1993) to Lebron's 6-year prime (2009-2014).

It isn't cherry-picking to compare their stats thru 30 years old (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12055983&postcount=42), or their entire careers (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12056271&postcount=57).

It isn't cherry-picking to compare the higher proportion of team points that old MJ scored in 1997 and 1998 than every year of Lebron's entire career (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12056041&postcount=48).
.

[3ball]

If Jordan was truly better you wouldn't feel the need to do this absurd comparison. You are threatened by Shaq. He is clearly better.
Keep in mind that Lebron probably ALSO has greater defensive impact than Shaq, based on the same logic I used for Jordan..

Again, Shaq's team realizes no ADVANTAGE from his rim-protecting impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.. Since Lebron likely ranks higher among SF's defensively than Shaq did among centers, he similarly provides his team with a greater advantage in defensive impact over the opposing SF, than Shaq does over the opposing center, meaning Lebron has greater defensive impact than Shaq.

Here's an example of the concept that could apply to Lebron - look at the Ray Allen vs. Jordan DBPM comparison (-1.3 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Ray's teammate, C Ervin Johnson vs. Shaq (2.6 to Shaq's 1.6).. Now who provided the greater defensive impact to their team??.. Shaq's team realizes no advantage from his rim-protecting impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.

Btw, I used the defensive boxscore stat to measure defensive impact because the verbage "defensive box score" makes it easy to conceptualize the advantage in defensive impact a player can provide.. But ANY stat/methodology could be used to measure defensive impact - the point is that we know elite defenders provided their teams with a bigger advantage in defensive impact over their matchup, then Shaq provided over his.

And the same concept applies to Pippen, or ANY elite defensive player that ranks higher defensively at their position than Shaq, who was not an elite defensive center.

Now obviously, MJ, Pippen and Lebron probably DON'T provide their team with a greater defensive impact than guys like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo - those guys were elite at their position AS WELL, and likely held a greater advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers... But not Shaq - he was lazy with poor work ethic and only made three 2nd team all defense in 17 years (no 1st teams).. Consequently, his teams were never great defensive teams (ranked in top 6 once in 15 years, thru his Miami days).
.

[Smoke117]

MJ's impact defensively was never close to Shaqs at his best. The big aristotle was always lazy as shit, but when he put forth the effort...he was one of the most impactful defensive players of all time. Jordan was never close to Shaq at this peak defensively...take your bullshit nonsense and do us all a favor and kill yourself 3ball. Why can't anyone actually know about baskeball on this ****ing piece of garbage forum? Jesus ****ing christ...

[Duffy Pratt]

Once again you are saying that if Tony Allen gets hurt, that increases LaMarcus Aldridge's defensive impact.

[3ball]

MJ's impact defensively was never close to Shaqs at his best. The big aristotle was always lazy as shit, but when he put forth the effort...he was one of the most impactful defensive players of all time. Jordan was never close to Shaq at this peak defensively...take your bullshit nonsense and do us all a favor and kill yourself 3ball. Why can't anyone actually know about baskeball on this ****ing piece of garbage forum? Jesus ****ing christ...


2000 was the only season Shaq's team was a top 6 defense.. They were ranked 21st defensively in 2001, which was also his prime and he had 1st team all-defense Kobe, and solid defenders in Fisher, Horry and Fox to help.. So don't tell me prime Shaq was this amazing defender - that's bullshit - his teams were never great defensive teams except that one year in 2000.

Shaq isn't an elite defender just because you prefer to think he is... There's a reason his teams were never great defensive teams and he only got three 2nd team all defense selections in his 17 season career (no 1st teams).. Other than Phil's first season coaching the Lakers (2000) where he was motivated to give a good effort, Shaq wasn't an elite defensive center.
.

[3ball]

If Jordan was truly better you wouldn't feel the need to do this absurd comparison. You are threatened by Shaq. He is clearly better.


No, I just know that people have a massive misconception when comparing the defensive impact of players who play different positions, and I feel the need to explain the proper way to look at it.

Lebron might ALSO have greater defensive impact than Shaq, based on the same logic I used for Jordan..

Again, Shaq's team realizes no ADVANTAGE from his rim-protecting impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.. Since Lebron likely ranks higher among SF's defensively than Shaq did among centers, he similarly provides his team with a greater advantage in defensive impact over the opposing SF, than Shaq does over the opposing center, meaning Lebron has greater defensive impact than Shaq.

Here's an example of the concept that could apply to Lebron - look at the Ray Allen vs. Jordan DBPM comparison (-1.3 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Ray's teammate, C Ervin Johnson vs. Shaq (2.6 to Shaq's 1.6).. Now who provided the greater defensive impact to their team??.. Shaq's team realizes no advantage from his rim-protecting impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.

Btw, I used the defensive boxscore stat to measure defensive impact because the verbage "defensive box score" makes it easy to conceptualize the advantage in defensive impact a player can provide.. But ANY stat/methodology could be used to measure defensive impact - the point is that we know elite defenders provided their teams with a bigger advantage in defensive impact over their matchup, then Shaq provided over his.

And the same concept applies to Pippen, or ANY elite defensive player that ranks higher defensively at their position than Shaq, who was not an elite defensive center.

Now obviously, MJ, Pippen and Lebron probably DON'T provide their team with a greater defensive impact than guys like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo - those guys were elite at their position AS WELL, and likely held a greater advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers... But not Shaq - he was lazy with poor work ethic and only made three 2nd team all defense in 17 years (no 1st teams).. Consequently, his teams were never great defensive teams (ranked in top 6 once in 15 years, thru his Miami days).

[3ball]

Once again you are saying that if Tony Allen gets hurt, that increases LaMarcus Aldridge's defensive impact.


You're aren't understanding the point being made - Shaq or Aldridge's team realizes no ADVANTAGE from their rim-protecting impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.

If Tony Allen gets hurt and doesn't play vs. Spurs, LaMarcus still has the same advantage (or disadvantage) in defensive impact AGAINST HIS MATCHUP AT CENTER that he had when Tony Allen was healthy - so Aldridge is giving the Spurs the same defensive impact as before..

But the difference is that now his unchanged impact could be less than the impact his SG gives the team, since the SG now has an advantage in defensive impact over Allen's replacement (since Allen's replacement is presumably a worse defender).

I hope that explains it... Now re-read the OP with your (hopefully) new understanding in mind..

[Duffy Pratt]

You're aren't understanding the point being made - Shaq or Aldridge's team realizes no ADVANTAGE from their rim-protecting impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.

If Tony Allen gets hurt and doesn't play vs. Spurs, LaMarcus still has the same advantage (or disadvantage) in defensive impact AGAINST HIS MATCHUP AT CENTER that he had when Tony Allen was healthy - so Aldridge is giving the Spurs the same defensive impact as before..

But the difference is that now his unchanged impact could be less than the impact his SG gives the team, since the SG now has an advantage in defensive impact over Allen's replacement (since Allen's replacement is presumably a worse defender).

I hope that explains it... Now re-read the OP with your (hopefully) new understanding in mind..

OK, so you are saying that if I want to compare the defensive dominance of Klay Thompson and LaMarcus Aldridge, Klay Thomspon's dominance increases when Tony Allen gets hurt. It's still ridiculous.

[3ball]

OK, so you are saying that if I want to compare the defensive dominance of Klay Thompson and LaMarcus Aldridge, Klay Thomspon's dominance increases when Tony Allen gets hurt. It's still ridiculous.
Klay's team realizes no ADVANTAGE from his defense anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's SG, like it is with Allen.

But with Allen hurt, Klay's team now DOES realize an advantage from Klay's defense, because Klay's defensive impact now exceeds the impact of Allen's replacement (who is presumably a much worse defender than Allen)..

With Klay now giving his team an advantage in defensive impact at the SG position, his impact could exceed whatever static/unchanged impact Aldridge gave his team at the PF position.

[LAZERUSS]

OK, so you are saying that if I want to compare the defensive dominance of Klay Thompson and LaMarcus Aldridge, Klay Thomspon's dominance increases when Tony Allen gets hurt. It's still ridiculous.

You can't win the argument when the argument involves the genius of Goofball math...

"2 - 2 = 4"

He will plaster this topic with page-after-page of ridiculous hypotheses. and meaningless gifs...none of which proves anything. And he will keep rehashing them over-and-over.

As for the topic...a 2000 Shaq was more dominant offensively and defensively than an old Jordan. No amount of shit that he throws against the fan is going to change it.

In fact, Shaq's 2000 season, including his post-season, and Finals, ranks as probably greater than a peak Jordan's best season. No one could stop Shaq, and all they could do was foul him. And he was just murdering his opposing centers at both ends of the floor, all while running away as the rpg and blocks leader in the post-season.

And he was just as dominant in his 2001 season, especially his 2001 post-season, when he destroyed the Robinson-Duncan Spurs, and then Mutombo in the Finals, )(BTW, not only scoring at will against him...albeit just steamrolling him...but outrebounding and outblocking him)...in a post-season run of 15-1.

A peak Shaq > a peak Jordan

[tpols]

OP's argument does make sense..

Shaq sat out and coasted regular seasons, and his defensive impact was lazy inconsistent.. would be hilarious to see what a team like todays warriors would do to him in PnR's.


Shaq could be a monster when he wanted, but most of the time didnt really give effort on defense. Hilarious because posters like smoke KILL Kobe for that.. but for Shaq its "oh but when he put forth the effort" nice contradiction.

[Duffy Pratt]

Let me put it this way. If two players defensive impact can cancel each other out. It's because they both have some defensive impact, and that impact is equal. Thus, there is such a thing as defensive impact without looking at the weight of the impact relative to position.

Given that, its entirely possible for centers to have a greater defensive impact than guards, without regard to position. Let's put it this way. In their time, Russell, Wilt, and Nate Thurmund were the three best defensive centers in the league. If you were building a team and thinking only about defense, would you rather have one of these guys, or would you rather have Havlicek, who was probably the best defensive small forward at the same time. If you answer that you would, for defensive purposes take Havlicek over Thurmond then you are insane, even though Havlicek was the number one defensive small forward, and Thurmond only the third best center (in a league of eight, remember).

[LAZERUSS]

Let me put it this way. If two players defensive impact can cancel each other out. It's because they both have some defensive impact, and that impact is equal. Thus, there is such a thing as defensive impact without looking at the weight of the impact relative to position.

Given that, its entirely possible for centers to have a greater defensive impact than guards, without regard to position. Let's put it this way. In their time, Russell, Wilt, and Nate Thurmund were the three best defensive centers in the league. If you were building a team and thinking only about defense, would you rather have one of these guys, or would you rather have Havlicek, who was probably the best defensive small forward at the same time. If you answer that you would, for defensive purposes take Havlicek over Thurmond then you are insane, even though Havlicek was the number one defensive small forward, and Thurmond only the third best center (in a league of eight, remember).

I find it fascinating that Goofball minimizes Shaq's defense, when he was just slaughtering HOF centers at BOTH ends of the floor in his career. And in his 2000 season, he held Robinson to a .457 FG%; Hakeem to a .333 FG%; and Ewing to a .324 FG%.

Oh, and over the course of his entire career, he just shelled those three.

But, his defensive impact wasn't as great as Jordan's?

[retaxis]

3ball never even watched MJ. This is why he always talks stats but never the game cos he never seen the RS!!! he is a pu$$y boy.

Also hey 3ball, you taught all the boys here how to fail uni and stay at home the next 5 years researching someones stats who u have never seen play irl. Just when i think stalker is the closest to human excrement imaginable, here comes a new sludgy excrement who is even more reliable

[tpols]

Let me put it this way. If two players defensive impact can cancel each other out. It's because they both have some defensive impact, and that impact is equal. Thus, there is such a thing as defensive impact without looking at the weight of the impact relative to position.

Given that, its entirely possible for centers to have a greater defensive impact than guards, without regard to position. Let's put it this way. In their time, Russell, Wilt, and Nate Thurmund were the three best defensive centers in the league. If you were building a team and thinking only about defense, would you rather have one of these guys, or would you rather have Havlicek, who was probably the best defensive small forward at the same time. If you answer that you would, for defensive purposes take Havlicek over Thurmond then you are insane, even though Havlicek was the number one defensive small forward, and Thurmond only the third best center (in a league of eight, remember).

But this example doesnt make sense because Shaq wasnt on the defensive level of a russell, wilt, thurmond.. You'd have to use an average to below average ranked center to make that point.. in which case it might be wiser to take havlicek.


You want the best defensive pieces at every level.. A center is of course preferable to a guard for defensive purposes given equal defensive ranking, but why would you want an average center defender over an elite guard defender? The Center is average in the area. You can replace that value fairly easily. The guard cant be replaced as easily because he outranks most every player at his position in defense. Simple opportunity cost, and basic logic.

[LAZERUSS]

But this example doesnt make sense because Shaq wasnt on the defensive level of a russell, wilt, thurmond.. You'd have to use an average to below average ranked center to make that point.. in which case it might be wiser to take havlicek.


You want the best defensive pieces at every level.. A center is of course preferable to a guard for defensive purposes given equal defensive ranking, but why would you want an average center defender over an elite guard defender? The Center is average in the area. You can replace that value fairly easily. The guard cant be replaced as easily because he outranks most every player at his position in defense. Simple opportunity cost, and basic logic.

Well, to be fair to Shaq, the OP is using Shaq's 2000 season, in which he was second team all-NBA, and led the Lakers to the top defense in the league.

BTW, Shaq noticeably increased his defense in the post-season. Particularly when Phil would put him on Duncan in 4th quarters in their H2H's from '01 to '04. Duncan couldn't hit a shot to save his life in those quarters, including his lone series win in '03.

[tpols]

Well, to be fair to Shaq, the OP is using Shaq's 2000 season, in which he was second team all-NBA, and led the Lakers to the top defense in the league.

BTW, Shaq noticeably increased his defense in the post-season. Particularly when Phil would put him on Duncan in 4th quarters in their H2H's from '01 to '04. Duncan couldn't hit a shot to save his life in those quarters, including his lone series win in '03.

I think shaq was a good defender, great peak defender, but isnt MJ considered GOAT level guard defender? comparatively MJ would be better for your team... especially career wise

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I think shaq was a good defender, great peak defender, but isnt MJ considered GOAT level guard defender? comparatively MJ would be better for your team... especially career wise

I don't think anybody disagrees. 3ball's logic, or lack there of, is the de facto argument here. Dude is basically suggesting that because Mutombo was a better defender than Shaq during the 2001 finals, Kobe is thereby a greater defender. No context and just totally ignores matchups per position. :oldlol:

Not sure if he's trolling but its literally one of the worst arguments I've seen constructed here.

[Duffy Pratt]

But this example doesnt make sense because Shaq wasnt on the defensive level of a russell, wilt, thurmond.. You'd have to use an average to below average ranked center to make that point.. in which case it might be wiser to take havlicek.


You want the best defensive pieces at every level.. A center is of course preferable to a guard for defensive purposes given equal defensive ranking, but why would you want an average center defender over an elite guard defender? The Center is average in the area. You can replace that value fairly easily. The guard cant be replaced as easily because he outranks most every player at his position in defense. Simple opportunity cost, and basic logic.

In the real world, you would look at the actual defensive impact of each player, and how it would fit into your team as it was presently constituted. I am not arguing at all about Shaq's defense. I am simply saying that the contrived method being used is ridiculous and counter-intuitive. Until recently, a decent center had more defensive impact than any guard. It's not too different than comparing the offensive dominance of a quarterback and a tight end.

By the way, in today's league, since the centers all suck and the three point shot is dominating, a good perimeter defender is worth much, much more than it used to be.

[Duffy Pratt]

I think shaq was a good defender, great peak defender, but isnt MJ considered GOAT level guard defender? comparatively MJ would be better for your team... especially career wise

Walt Frazier.

[tpols]

It's not too different than comparing the offensive dominance of a quarterback and a tight end.
.

thats a good analogy.

Lets put it this way, would you rather have Tony Romo or Gronk? Thats what this is...

[LAZERUSS]

I think shaq was a good defender, great peak defender, but isnt MJ considered GOAT level guard defender? comparatively MJ would be better for your team... especially career wise

I don't think anyone here is arguing who had the greater career, in any area.

But I don't see an old Jordan having any case over a peak Shaq in ANY area. Shaq's offensive dominance in 2000 went far beyond his numbers. Like a prime Chamberlain, he was constantly doubled-tripled, and swarmed; as well as taking a beating, and often with the official looking the other way.

Granted, Shaq got away with a ton, too, but overall, he was probably fouled far more often, than what he got away with.

Personally, I would take his 2001 post-season over his 2000 playoff run, too. He wiped the floor with the Robinson-Duncan tandem, and shut Duncan down in the 4th quarters, and then proceeded to just crush Mutombo in the Finals (granted a 35 year old Dikembe, but he did win DPOY, and was the rpg leader.)

Again, MJ's career was greater than Shaq's, but in terms of peak, I honestly would take Shaq's 99-00 and 00-01 seasons over any of Jordan's.

[3ball]

Given that, its entirely possible for centers to have a greater defensive impact than guards, without regard to position. Let's put it this way. In their time, Russell, Wilt, and Nate Thurmund were the three best defensive centers in the league. If you were building a team and thinking only about defense, would you rather have one of these guys, or would you rather have Havlicek, who was probably the best defensive small forward at the same time.


Your assessment doesn't work because it forgets what my entire point is BASED on:

SHAQ... IS... NOT... AN... ELITE... DEFENDER (like Wilt, Bellamy, Hakeem, Robinson, Mutombo, etc.)

so he didn't have a larger advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pippen/Lebron have over opposing wings.

Again - Shaq's team realizes no ADVANTAGE from his rim-protecting impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.. And on average, MJ/Pippen/Lebron gave their teams a bigger advantage in defensive impact at their positions, than Shaq gave his team at his position.

I specifically stated this in the OP, but you either didn't read it or understand it:






Now obviously, MJ, Pippen and Lebron probably DON'T provide their team with a greater defensive impact than guys like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo - those guys were elite at their position AS WELL, and likely held a greater advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pip/Lebron held over opposing wings.

But not Shaq - Shaq was NOT an elite defender like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo, so he didn't have a larger advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pippen/Lebron have over opposing wings.

[Duffy Pratt]

Your assessment doesn't work because it forgets what my entire point is BASED on:

SHAQ... IS... NOT... AN... ELITE... DEFENDER (like Wilt, Bellamy, Hakeem, Robinson, Mutombo, etc.)

so he didn't have a larger advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pippen/Lebron have over opposing wings.

Again - Shaq's team realizes no ADVANTAGE from his rim-protecting impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.. And on average, MJ/Pippen/Lebron gave their teams a bigger advantage in defensive impact at their positions, than Shaq gave his team at his position.

I specifically stated this in the OP, but you either didn't read it or understand it:





Shaq is one of 16 centers to have been all-defense three or more times (first or second team). When he wanted to, he was an absolute beast on defense. By the way, Wes Unseld never made the all defense squad. I suppose he wasn't elite either.

The main thing you fail to understand is that impact is not equal to advantage. It is possible for the overall quality of defense in the league to get better or worse. It's not just a relative measure. And it's possible for one position to absolutely be more important on defense than another. Nor only possible, but ordinarily the case.

[3ball]

.
Centers have a bigger defensive impact when compared directly to guards, but the advantage they give their team depends on how their defensive impact compares to other CENTERS, not guards..

Shaq's team realizes no advantage when his defensive impact is matched or exceeded by the opposing center..

This happened more often for him than it happened for MJ/Pip/Lebron, since they ranked at the TOP defensively at their position, and he didn't - so on average, they gave their team a bigger advantage in defensive impact over the opposing wing, then Shaq's advantage over the opposing center, which means they provided the bigger defensive impact for their team.

Now obviously, MJ, Pippen and Lebron probably DON'T provide their team with a greater defensive impact than guys like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo - those guys were elite at their position AS WELL, and likely held a greater advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pip/Lebron held over opposing wings... But not Shaq - Shaq was NOT an elite defender like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo, so he didn't have a larger advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pippen/Lebron have over opposing wings.

Not surprisingly, Shaq's teams weren't great defensive teams, while Jordan's were.
.

[sdot_thadon]

Why try so hard to twist things? Shaq was 7ft, 300 plus. Mj was 6'6, 220ish. Shaq could clog the paint, he was effective just being there. Sure you can say MJ was more elite defensively at his position, but be realistic. Bigs impact>>>smalls defensively. Someone already showed you shaqs numbers vs elite guys. He had a pretty great impact on them.

[dunksby]

3ball posts from a mental asylum, they only let him do it so he doesn't get violent.

[sdot_thadon]

3ball posts from a mental asylum, they only let him do it so he doesn't get violent.
I'd be afraid for Mj if this cats was ever anywhere near him.

[3ball]

Why try so hard to twist things? Shaq was 7ft, 300 plus. Mj was 6'6, 220ish. Shaq could clog the paint, he was effective just being there. Sure you can say MJ was more elite defensively at his position, but be realistic. Bigs impact>>>smalls defensively. Someone already showed you shaqs numbers vs elite guys. He had a pretty great impact on them.


Centers have a bigger defensive impact when compared directly to guards, but the advantage they give their team depends on how their defensive impact compares to other CENTERS, not guards. .

Comparing their head-to-head stats are irrelevant - it's about comparing Shaq's overall defensive impact to their overall defensive impact.. Elite defensive centers like Hakeem/Robinson/Ewing all had great defensive teams most years, while Shaq's teams were never great defensive teams..

Ultimately, Shaq's team realizes no advantage when his defensive impact is matched or exceeded by the opposing center..

This happened more often for him than it happened for MJ/Pip/Lebron, since they ranked at the TOP defensively at their position, and he didn't - so on average, they gave their team a bigger advantage in defensive impact over the opposing wing, then Shaq's advantage over the opposing center, which means they provided the bigger defensive impact for their team.

Now obviously, MJ, Pippen and Lebron probably DON'T provide their team with a greater defensive impact than guys like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo - those guys were elite at their position AS WELL, and likely held a greater advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pip/Lebron held over opposing wings... But not Shaq - Shaq was NOT an elite defender like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo, so he didn't have a larger advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pippen/Lebron have over opposing wings.
.

[LAZERUSS]

Shaq's team realizes no advantage when his impact is matched or exceeded by the opposing center..


Oh really???

So when Shaq is routinely badly outscoring, and dumping 30+ points, on 60% shooting, while outrebounding, and outblocking...

while holding his opposing centers to 40% shooting...

guys like Hakeem, Robinson, and Ewing...

that is not considered a defensive advantage?

[3ball]

So when Shaq is routinely badly outscoring, and dumping 30+ points, on 60% shooting, while outrebounding, and outblocking...

while holding his opposing centers to 40% shooting...

guys like Hakeem, Robinson, and Ewing...

that is not considered a defensive advantage?


I'm looking at the head-to-head matchups right now on bballref, and Shaq didn't hold those guys to 40% shooting - Hakeem averaged 33/12/6 on 49% in 1995 Finals, and Hakeem/Ewing/Robinson all shot 45-50% against him for their careers.

But comparing their head-to-head stats are irrelevant anyway - it's about comparing Shaq's overall defensive impact to their overall defensive impact.. Elite defensive centers like Hakeem/Robinson/Ewing all had great defensive teams most years, while Shaq's teams were never great defensive teams..

Ultimately, Shaq's team realizes no advantage when his defensive impact is matched or exceeded by the opposing center.. This happened more often for him than it happened for MJ/Pip/Lebron, since they ranked at the TOP defensively at their position, and he didn't - so on average, they gave their team a bigger advantage in defensive impact over the opposing wing, then Shaq's advantage over the opposing center, which means they provided the bigger defensive impact for their team..

Obviously, centers have a bigger defensive impact when compared directly to guards, but the advantage they give their team depends on how their defensive impact compares to other CENTERS, not guards.

Here's an example - look at the Ray Allen vs. Jordan DBPM comparison (-1.3 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Ray's teammate, C Ervin Johnson vs. Shaq (2.6 to Shaq's 1.6).. Now who provided the greater defensive impact to their team??.. Shaq's team realizes no advantage from his defensive impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.

Now obviously, MJ, Pippen and Lebron probably DON'T provide their team with a greater defensive impact than guys like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo - those guys were elite at their position AS WELL, and likely held a greater advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pip/Lebron held over opposing wings... But not Shaq - Shaq was NOT an elite defender like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo, so he didn't have a larger advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pippen/Lebron have over opposing wings.

[LAZERUSS]

I'm looking at the head-to-head matchups right now on bballref, and Shaq didn't hold those guys to 40% shooting - Hakeem averaged 33/12/6 on 49% in 1995 Finals, and Ewing/Robinson both shot 45-50% against him for their careers.

But comparing their head-to-head stats are irrelevant anyway - it's about comparing Shaq's overall defensive impact to their overall defensive impact.. Elite defensive centers like Hakeem/Robinson/Ewing all had great defensive teams most years, while Shaq's teams were never great defensive teams..

Ultimately, Shaq's team realizes no advantage when his defensive impact is matched or exceeded by the opposing center.. This happened more often for him than it happened for MJ/Pip/Lebron, since they ranked at the TOP defensively at their position, and he didn't - so on average, they gave their team a bigger advantage in defensive impact over the opposing wing, then Shaq's advantage over the opposing center, which means they provided the bigger defensive impact for their team.

Here's an example - look at the Ray Allen vs. Jordan DBPM comparison (-1.3 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Ray's teammate, C Ervin Johnson vs. Shaq (2.6 to Shaq's 1.6).. Now who provided the greater defensive impact to their team??.. Shaq's team realizes no advantage from his defensive impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.

Now obviously, MJ, Pippen and Lebron probably DON'T provide their team with a greater defensive impact than guys like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo - those guys were elite at their position AS WELL, and likely held a greater advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pip/Lebron held over opposing wings... But not Shaq - Shaq was NOT an elite defender like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo, so he didn't have a larger advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pippen/Lebron have over opposing wings.

Shaq SLAUGHTERED those guys over his CAREER.
I have posted the numbers before, and it was overwhelming, both regular season and post-season.

As for 2000...

In his H2H's...Shaq held Robinson to a .457 FG%; Hakeem to a .333 FG%; and Ewing to a .324 FG%.

Again, over the course of their careers, Shaq just ANNIHILATED all three of them.

Furthermore, in the Spurs-Laker series from '01 thru '04, Jackson used to put Shaq on Duncan in the 4th quarters. I won't take the time to dig up the numbers now, but Duncan probably shot a cumulative .400 or so in those 4th quarters.

Shaq was a true FORCE against POST-UP centers. At BOTH ends.

[3ball]

As usual Lazeruss, you're missing the point and have tunnel vision on something irrelevant instead (H2H stats).

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

[3ball]

The main thing you fail to understand is that impact is not equal to advantage.


Centers have a bigger defensive impact when compared directly to guards, but the advantage they give their team depends on how their impact compares to other CENTERS, not guards. .

Shaq's team realizes no advantage when his impact is matched or exceeded by the opposing center..

This happened more often for him than it happened for MJ/Pip/Lebron, since they ranked at the TOP defensively at their position, and he didn't - so on average, they gave their team a bigger advantage in defensive impact over the opposing wing, then Shaq's advantage over the opposing center, which means they provided the bigger defensive impact for their team.





And it's possible for one position to absolutely be more important on defense than another.


Again, centers have a bigger defensive impact when compared directly to guards, but the advantage they give their team depends on how their impact compares to other CENTERS, not guards..

Shaq's team realizes no advantage when his impact is matched or exceeded by the opposing center..

This happened more often for him than it happened for MJ/Pip/Lebron, since they ranked at the TOP defensively at their position, and he didn't - so on average, they gave their team a bigger advantage in defensive impact over the opposing wing, then Shaq's advantage over the opposing center, which means they provided the bigger defensive impact for their team.





Shaq is one of 16 centers to have been all-defense three or more times (first or second team).


Guys like Robinson, Hakeem, Alonzo, Mutombo - they were considered elite defensive centers - Shaq was never considered on these guys' level defensively.

Also, Shaq's three 2nd team all-defense selections is nowhere NEAR Jordan (or Pippen or Lebron), and that's the basis for the point we're making here.





When he wanted to, he was an absolute beast on defense. By the way, Wes Unseld never made the all defense squad. I suppose he wasn't elite either.


He was only motivated during Phil's first year in 2000.. But in 2001, Shaq's team was ranked 21st ranked defensively, even though he had 1st team defender Kobe, along with solid defenders Horace Grant, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, and others.

Overall, Shaq's teams were top 6 in defense only 1 time in 15 years thru his Miami days.. And they were top 10 only 7 times in 15 years.. His teams simply were not good defensive teams.

So he couldn't have been a "beast" like you want - like many people, you've created that false perception because Shaq's sheer size biases your opinion and/or you're conflating his 1 good year (2000) with all the other bad years.

Btw, I have no idea about Wes Unseld except that his career high blocks (0.9) and career average (0.6) was less than Jordan's.





It is possible for the overall quality of defense in the league to get better or worse. It's not just a relative measure.


i ONLY consider defensive ranking relative to the league - that's how I always do it - I could give 2 bird shits about numerical value of DRtg.

The only thing that matters is how his teams ranked defensively relative to the league - and they didn't rank well - they were only top 6 once in 15 years thru his Miami days, and top 10 only 7 times).

[3ball]

Shaq SLAUGHTERED those guys over his CAREER.
I have posted the numbers before, and it was overwhelming, both regular season and post-season.

Furthermore, in the Spurs-Laker series from '01 thru '04, Jackson used to put Shaq on Duncan in the 4th quarters. I won't take the time to dig up the numbers now, but Duncan probably shot a cumulative .400 or so in those 4th quarters.


Comparing head-to-head stats is irrelevant - elite defensive centers like Hakeem/Robinson/Ewing had great defensive teams nearly every year, while Shaq almost never did - so their overall defensive impact was greater, regardless of the H2H matchup.

Ultimately, Shaq's team realizes no advantage when his overall defensive impact is matched or exceeded by the opposing center.. This happened more often for him than it happened for MJ/Pip/Lebron, since they ranked at the TOP defensively at their position, and he didn't - so on average, they gave their team a bigger advantage in defensive impact over the opposing wing, then Shaq's advantage over the opposing center, which means they provided the bigger defensive impact for their team..

Obviously, centers have a bigger defensive impact when compared directly to guards, but the advantage they give their team depends on how their defensive impact compares to other CENTERS, not guards.

Here's an example - look at the Ray Allen vs. Jordan DBPM comparison (-1.3 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Ray's teammate, C Ervin Johnson vs. Shaq (2.6 to Shaq's 1.6).. Now who provided the greater defensive impact to their team??.. Shaq's team realizes no advantage from his defensive impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.

Now obviously, MJ, Pippen and Lebron probably DON'T provide their team with a greater defensive impact than guys like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo - those guys were elite at their position AS WELL, and likely held a greater advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pip/Lebron held over opposing wings... But not Shaq - Shaq was NOT an elite defender like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo, so he didn't have a larger advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pippen/Lebron have over opposing wings.

[LAZERUSS]

Comparing head-to-head stats is irrelevant - elite defensive centers like Hakeem/Robinson/Ewing had great defensive teams nearly every year, while Shaq almost never did - so their overall defensive impact was greater, regardless of the H2H matchup.

Ultimately, Shaq's team realizes no advantage when his overall defensive impact is matched or exceeded by the opposing center.. This happened more often for him than it happened for MJ/Pip/Lebron, since they ranked at the TOP defensively at their position, and he didn't - so on average, they gave their team a bigger advantage in defensive impact over the opposing wing, then Shaq's advantage over the opposing center, which means they provided the bigger defensive impact for their team..

Obviously, centers have a bigger defensive impact when compared directly to guards, but the advantage they give their team depends on how their defensive impact compares to other CENTERS, not guards.

Here's an example - look at the Ray Allen vs. Jordan DBPM comparison (-1.3 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Ray's teammate, C Ervin Johnson vs. Shaq (2.6 to Shaq's 1.6).. Now who provided the greater defensive impact to their team??.. Shaq's team realizes no advantage from his defensive impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.

Now obviously, MJ, Pippen and Lebron probably DON'T provide their team with a greater defensive impact than guys like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo - those guys were elite at their position AS WELL, and likely held a greater advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pip/Lebron held over opposing wings... But not Shaq - Shaq was NOT an elite defender like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo, so he didn't have a larger advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pippen/Lebron have over opposing wings.

And I don't give a damn about TEAM rankings, either.

Wilt played with some horrible defensive supporting casts in his career, so in some year's his TEAM rankings were not elite. He was STILL and ELITE defensive force his ENTIRE career, though.

And do you think that MJ was the ONLY reason why the Bulls were ranked as high as they were? Hell no...they had ELITE defenders all over those rosters...some of them very under-rated (like Harper.)

Sorry, but Shaq's defensive dominance was NOT tied to his TEAM's defensive rankings.

And yes, he was a DOMINANT force against Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, and other's his entire career. You mentioned their career H2H FG%'s (and Shaq was MILES better)...all three of those guys were WELL BELOW their career FG%'s. It was no coincidence.

And then, he destroyed those ELITE defensive centers when he was on the offensive end, as well. Their impact against Shaq's TEAM's were FAR less than against the rest of the league.

[3ball]

And I don't give a damn about TEAM rankings, either.

Wilt played with some horrible defensive supporting casts in his career, so in some year's his TEAM rankings were not elite. He was STILL and ELITE defensive force his ENTIRE career, though.

And do you think that MJ was the ONLY reason why the Bulls were ranked as high as they were? Hell no...they had ELITE defenders all over those rosters...some of them very under-rated (like Harper.)

Sorry, but Shaq's defensive dominance was NOT tied to his TEAM's defensive rankings.



But Shaq didn't - unlike Wilt, Shaq played with great defenders, more than MJ did:


Shaq's all-defensive teammates:

Horace Grant 2
Eddie Jones 2
Kobe Bryant 5
Dwayne Wade 1
________________
4 teammates.. 10 times... 4 of 15 seasons with zero all-def teammates



MJ's all-defensive teammates:

Scottie Pippen 6
Horace Grant 1
Dennis Rodman 1
_________________
3 teammates... 8 times... 5 of 11 seasons with zero all-def teammates



And Shaq's Laker teams were stacked defensively - in addition to 1st team all defense Kobe, he had solid defenders Horace Grant, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox and others.

Even though Shaq had more all-defensive teammates than Jordan, his teams were far worse defensively, which proves his defensive impact was not elite.

Shaq's teams were top SIX in defense only 1 time in 15 years (thru his Miami days) and top TEN only 7 times in 15 years.. This is why Shaq himself only made three 2nd team all defensive teams in his 17-year career (no 1st teams) - his defensive impact was simply not elite.

Btw, in addition to his Laker teams being stacked defensively, so were his Miami teams - Shaq had all-pro defender Wade, and also Alonzo Mourning, who led the Heat bench with an amazing 2.7 blocks in 20 minutes...

In Orlando, he had all-pro defender Horace Grant, and solid defenders Penny and Donald Royal.
.

[LAZERUSS]

But Shaq didn't - unlike Wilt, Shaq played with great defenders, more than MJ did:


Shaq's all-defensive teammates:

Horace Grant 2
Eddie Jones 2
Kobe Bryant 5
Dwayne Wade 1
________________
4 teammates.. 10 times... 4 of 15 seasons with zero all-def teammates



MJ's all-defensive teammates:

Scottie Pippen 6
Horace Grant 1
Dennis Rodman 1
_________________
3 teammates... 8 times... 5 of 11 seasons with zero all-def teammates



Even though Shaq had more all-defensive teammates than Jordan, his teams were far worse defensively, which proves his defensive impact was not elite.

Shaq's teams were top SIX in defense only 1 time in 15 years (thru his Miami days) and top TEN only 7 times in 15 years.. This is why Shaq himself only made three 2nd team all defensive teams in his 17-year career (no 1st teams) - his defensive impact was simply not elite.

Btw, his Laker teams were stacked defensively - in addition to 1st team all defense Kobe, he had solid defenders Horace Grant, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox and others.

His Miami teams were stacked defensively too - in addition to all-pro defender Wade, Shaq had Alonzo Mourning, who led the Heat bench with an amazing 2.7 blocks in 20 minutes...

In Orlando, he had all-pro defender Horace Grant, and solid defenders Penny and Donald Royal.

Whatever.

No one is claiming that Shaq was on MJ's level defensively.

[3ball]

Whatever.

No one is claiming that Shaq was on MJ's level defensively.


So why we arguing if you agree

[LAZERUSS]

So why we arguing if you agree

Well, if I have read your posts on this specific topic correctly, even you are agreeing that Shaq was elite defensively in 2000.

And no, I wouldn't take an old MJ over a 2000 Shaq defensively, nor offensively for that matter.

Career's? MJ had a greater career, and was a better defender.

[3ball]

.
.........Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4) <---- these are links to nba.com data
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)


SHAQ 2000....... 35.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 39.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 38.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 43.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2001....... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 38.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 35.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 26.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2002....... 33.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 35.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 25.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 28.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)




.......Percentages of team points + assists while player was on floor


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 57.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 63.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 64.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 84.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 73.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 91.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 54.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 53.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 59.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 76.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 58.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 69.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)


SHAQ 2000....... 53.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 59.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 55.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 48.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 64.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2001....... 52.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 56.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 54.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 57.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 59.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2002....... 51.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 51.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 44.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 55.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 54.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)

[3ball]

Well, if I have read your posts on this specific topic correctly, even you are agreeing that Shaq was elite defensively in 2000.


Agreed, Shaq was elite defensively in 2000 - Phil's first year was the only year he was motivated with a good work ethic, which resulted in the Lakers having the league's #1 defense..

But after he got that first championship, he went back to his old ways - in 2001, Shaq's team was ranked 21st ranked defensively, even though he had 1st team defender Kobe, along with solid defenders Horace Grant, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, and others.





And no, I wouldn't take an old MJ from 1997/1998 over a 2000 Shaq defensively


Agreed, for 2000 specifically.

But I would take old MJ over 2001 Shaq, when the Lakers had the 21st ranked defensive team, despite having 1st team defender Kobe, along with solid defenders Horace Grant, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, and others.





And I wouldn't take old MJ over 2000 Shaq offensively either.


We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

I believe that when a player has a much higher proportion of his team's points and assists while winning a championship, they are the superior offensive player.

And it's clear-cut, statistical fact that old MJ did this - his percentage of points and assists was much higher in 1997 and 1998, then Shaq's in 2000 (see previous post, #98).





Career's? MJ had a greater career, and was a better defender.


Agreed

[LAZERUSS]

Agreed, Shaq was elite defensively in 2000 - Phil's first year was the only year he was motivated with a good work ethic, which resulted in the Lakers having the league's #1 defense..

But after he got that first championship, he went back to his old ways - in 2001, Shaq's team was ranked 21st ranked defensively, even though he had 1st team defender Kobe, along with solid defenders Horace Grant, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, and others.



Agreed, for 2000 specifically.

But I would take old MJ over 2001 Shaq, when the Lakers had the 21st ranked defensive team, despite having 1st team defender Kobe, along with solid defenders Horace Grant, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, and others.



We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

I believe that when a player has a much higher proportion of his team's points and assists while winning a championship, they are the superior offensive player.

And it's clear-cut, statistical fact that old MJ did this - his percentage of points and assists was much higher in 1997 and 1998, then Shaq's in 2000 (see previous post, #98).



Agreed

For once...

:cheers:

[3ball]

For once...

:cheers:


Glad we finally agree on something (the contents of the last post).

Btw, in 1997 and 1998, not only did MJ have a higher proportion of his team's points, and also pts + ast then Shaq did in 2000 (shown at bottom), but MJ did so on equal efficiency to Shaq:


JORDAN 1997 REG SEAS: 56.5 ts... 121 ORtg
O'NEAL. 2000 REG SEAS: 57.8 ts... 115 ORtg

JORDAN 1998 PLAYOFFS: 54.5 ts... 117 ORtg
O'NEAL. 2000 PLAYOFFS: 55.6 ts... 114 ORtg




.....................Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4) <---- these are links to nba.com data
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
O'NEAL. 2000... 35.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 39.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 38.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 43.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)



....................Percentages of team points + assists while player was on floor


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 57.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 63.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 64.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 84.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 73.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 91.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 54.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 53.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 59.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 76.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 58.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 69.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
O'NEAL. 2000... 53.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 59.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 49.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 55.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 48.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 64.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)