Jordan was a worse 1st option than...

[kennethgriffin]

http://i66.tinypic.com/25smy4k.jpg


all time guard scoring champion

all time guard single game scoring champion

[Straight_Ballin]

The guy watched MJ tape all day and mimiced his game after him and he still was worse at every aspect of the game than MJ other than 3 point shooting, and that's only because MJ never bothered to work on his 3 point shot. :sleeping

[3ball]

.
..............Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor


.
........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997.... 36.0..... 40.1..... 37.7..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998.... 36.3..... 42.1..... 39.7..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)


PIPPEN 1997..... 24.7..... 22.2..... 24.6..... 25.6....... 25.1...... 26.4
PIPPEN 1998..... 24.1..... 19.7..... 21.9..... 15.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)....... 22.1...... 14.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)


LEBRON 2009.... 35.0..... 39.3..... 41.5..... 42.4
LEBRON 2010.... 34.6..... 44.4..... 32.6..... 40.3
LEBRON 2011.... 32.0..... 32.8..... 28.1..... 30.7...... 21.4...... 14.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2010-11&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
LEBRON 2012.... 34.2..... 33.8..... 34.5..... 34.9...... 30.0...... 33.3
LEBRON 2013.... 32.1..... 32.1..... 30.6..... 36.0...... 29.3...... 39.1
LEBRON 2014.... 33.1..... 38.2..... 35.3..... 32.1...... 39.6...... 29.5
LEBRON 2015.... 30.1..... 38.9..... 35.0..... 42.4...... 40.0...... 44.5
LEBRON 2016.... 33.4..... 40.9

CURRY 2015..... 29.9..... 36.2...... 33.4..... 36.6...... 29.3...... 40.6
CURRY 2016..... 35.1..... 40.7



HEY KENNETH - Should I add Kobe to this list to see how he compares?... I will eventually (too lazy right now)...

But I was messing around earlier, and I can tell you that Kobe's high is 41% in 2003 playoffs 4th quarter (we know 2003 was his athletic peak)... Other than that, he's in the 30's and even 20's... That doesn't compare to MJ

[kennethgriffin]

.
..............Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor


.
........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997.... 36.0..... 40.1..... 37.7..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998.... 36.3..... 42.1..... 39.7..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)


PIPPEN 1997..... 24.7..... 22.2..... 24.6..... 25.6....... 25.1...... 26.4
PIPPEN 1998..... 24.1..... 19.7..... 21.9..... 15.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)....... 22.1...... 14.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)


LEBRON 2009.... 35.0..... 39.3..... 41.5..... 42.4
LEBRON 2010.... 34.6..... 44.4..... 32.6..... 40.3
LEBRON 2011.... 32.0..... 32.8..... 28.1..... 30.7...... 21.4...... 14.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2010-11&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
LEBRON 2012.... 34.2..... 33.8..... 34.5..... 34.9...... 30.0...... 33.3
LEBRON 2013.... 32.1..... 32.1..... 30.6..... 36.0...... 29.3...... 39.1
LEBRON 2014.... 33.1..... 38.2..... 35.3..... 32.1...... 39.6...... 29.5
LEBRON 2015.... 30.1..... 38.9..... 35.0..... 42.4...... 40.0...... 44.5
LEBRON 2016.... 33.4..... 40.9

CURRY 2015..... 29.9..... 36.2...... 33.4..... 36.6...... 29.3...... 40.6
CURRY 2016..... 35.1..... 40.7



HEY KENNETH - Should I add Kobe to this list to see how he compares?... I will eventually (too lazy right now)...

But I was messing around earlier, and I can tell you that Kobe's high is 41% in 2003 playoffs 4th quarter (we know 2003 was his athletic peak)... Other than that, he's in the 30's and even 20's... That doesn't compare to MJ



dude... when wilt played in a system that required him to pass he averaged like 13ppg


he was more than capable of doing more than that. but systems enable people to do different things



kobe took 4 less shots per game than jordan throughout his career. this is the only reason kobes ppg isnt identical to jordans


if kobe played on a defensive minded team his entire career in which his 2nd option was happy averaging 16ppg.. then believe me.. kobe would have had those extra 4 shots a game and at 1.30 points per shot ( the same as jordan ) he would have had the same averages


the fact is... when both guys are given the same oppotunities. kobe does greater things offensively

jordans 4 quarter record is 61... kobe had 62 after 3 quarters


its obvious kobe is the greater and more dangerous scorer

[Asukal]

It's ok kenneth, your knowledge isn't quite there yet just like kobe. :rolleyes:

[kennethgriffin]

It's ok kenneth, your knowledge isn't quite there yet just like kobe. :rolleyes:


so why is everything kobe has on MJ null and void but the things jordan has on kobe are all that matters



:lol


are we gonna lie to ourselves and say if kobe started in 1985 on chicago and went through the exact same situations that he wouldnt also had 6-7 rings and a 30ppg average


however.. give jordan kobes situation and i doubt jordan ever comes close to 81 points... or 62 in three quarters vs the WCF champs... or passing kobes all time total points


fact is ... kobe can be like mike. but mike cant be like kobe

[Straight_Ballin]

Kobe tried to be like Mike. He tried so hard but he came up short.

[kennethgriffin]

jordans accomplishments are situational


any of the 10 greatest players ever could have stepped into that chicago team and won 6 titles while beating out pippen for finals mvp every time


thats all im saying


kobes biggest moments were not situational.. only kobe could do them

[kennethgriffin]

Kobe tried to be like Mike. He tried so hard but he came up short.


why does kobe have to do all the things jordan did. why didnt jordan do all the things kobe did before kobe did them

its a 2 way street

jordan doesnt have to get 33K+ points. but kobe has to average 30ppg for his career


doesnt make sense

[Asukal]

so why is everything kobe has on MJ null and void but the things jordan has on kobe are all that matters



:lol


are we gonna lie to ourselves and say if kobe started in 1985 on chicago and went through the exact same situations that he wouldnt also had 6-7 rings and a 30ppg average


however.. give jordan kobes situation and i doubt jordan ever comes close to 81 points... or 62 in three quarters vs the WCF champs... or passing kobes all time total points


fact is ... kobe can be like mike. but mike cant be like kobe

LOL at the bolded. Stop lying to yourself Kenneth. You know full well kobe isn't quite there when it comes to the Jordan comparison. :oldlol:

[dubeta]

Boiled down:



2/5





Kobe has 2 FMVPs to 5 rings


He has the career of a second option/role player



He was never a 1st option

[kennethgriffin]

LOL at the bolded. Stop lying to yourself Kenneth. You know full well kobe isn't quite there when it comes to the Jordan comparison. :oldlol:



and jordan isnt quite there when it comes to a kobe comparison


both did some things better


i'l say it again. why does kobe have to do everything jordan did but jordan didnt have to do the things kobe did that jordan could never dream of


its bullshit

[kennethgriffin]

Boiled down:



2/5





Kobe has 2 FMVPs to 5 rings


He has the career of a second option/role player



He was never a 1st option


yeah and kobe on the bulls would win finals mvp every single time... so?


jordan on the lakers with 2000-2002 shaq might lose all 3 fmvps to shaq


so?

[deja vu]

Imagine if Jordan had Shaq as a 2nd option my oh my he would have won more than 6 titles.

[Asukal]

and jordan isnt quite there when it comes to a kobe comparison


both did some things better


i'l say it again. why does kobe have to do everything jordan did but jordan didnt have to do the things kobe did that jordan could never dream of


its bullshit

So you want Jordan to:
- win 5 rings instead of 6
- win 2 FMVPs instead of 6 FMVPs
- win 1 scoring title instead of 10
- never win a DPOY
- never win ROY
- score 81 points in 1 game instead of average 30ppg for his WHOLE career

:biggums:
WTF are you smoking son?
:biggums:

Even kobe knows he isn't on the same level. You want me to post clips where he said MJ is the greatest? How can you not accept reality? You must be in love with kobe or something... :kobe:

[Dr Hawk]

Jordan is the best 1st option of all-time. Give him a championship caliber team and he will win the ring for you. Only player that can say that. Pistons 04, Celtics 08, Kobe's big failures, not to talk about '11 epic failure

[kennethgriffin]

Imagine if Jordan had Shaq as a 2nd option my oh my he would have won more than 6 titles.


Peak shaq is 1st option though

Jordan would have 3 rings as the 2nd guy

And kobe on chicago would have all his rings as the fmvp



Thats the upside and the downfall of having a guy you gotta throw the ball into cause hes a big man and in his absolute prime when youre a 21,22,23 year old

[kennethgriffin]

So you want Jordan to:
- win 5 rings instead of 6
- win 2 FMVPs instead of 6 FMVPs
- win 1 scoring title instead of 10
- never win a DPOY
- never win ROY
- score 81 points in 1 game instead of average 30ppg for his WHOLE career

:biggums:
WTF are you smoking son?
:biggums:

Even kobe knows he isn't on the same level. You want me to post clips where he said MJ is the greatest? How can you not accept reality? You must be in love with kobe or something... :kobe:


Why couldnt jordan get 81 points

Why couldnt jordan get 62 in 3 quarters

Why couldnt jordan his 12 threes in a game

Why couldnt jordan get 4 consecutive 50+ point games

Why couldnt jordan beat 24 teams with 50+ wins

Why couldnt jordan make 11 first team all nbas

Why couldnt jordan get 30000 points and 6000 assists

Why couldnt jordan keep the all time guard scoring title

Why couldnt jordan win 2 titles without a top 50 player all time

Why couldnt jordan get a winning record without a top 50 player all time

Why couldnt jordan make the nba from highschool and dominate the playoffs at age 22 as his teams overall winshares leader during the greatest post season run of all time



Like i said... kobe didnt do some things jordan did. And jordan didnt do some things kobe did


But why is it kobe MUST do all these things jordans known for?

Why cant kobe gain ground with his own big time moments

Why are the things jordans known for the end all be all


Thats my point

[ShaqTwizzle]

Thats the upside and the downfall of having a guy you gotta throw the ball into cause hes a big man and in his absolute prime when youre a 21,22,23 year old

This is nonsense.

Shaq allowed Kobe (once he was fully developed) to handle the ball & shoot like a 1st option while facing far less defensive attention/double teams then a normal 1st option would face.

Playoffs
01-02 Kobe : 22.5 FGA / 8.5 FTA
08-10 Kobe : 22.4 FGA / 8.6 FTA

When Kobe actually performed well (01) he put up stats that easily rivaled what he did later in his career as the man.

Jordan (who was more efficient then Kobe) could have easily mustered 30+ / 6 / 6 type lines alongside the big fella.

Maybe he loses out on some FMVP's but in terms of stats he'd be fine.

[kennethgriffin]

This is nonsense.

Shaq allowed Kobe (once he was fully developed) to handle the ball & shoot like a 1st option while facing far less defensive attention/double teams then a normal 1st option would face.

Playoffs
01-02 Kobe : 22.5 FGA / 8.5 FTA
08-10 Kobe : 22.4 FGA / 8.6 FTA

When Kobe actually performed well (01) he put up stats that easily rivaled what he did later in his career as the man.

Jordan (who was more efficient then Kobe) could have easily mustered 30+ / 6 / 6 type lines alongside the big fella.

Maybe he loses out on some FMVP's but in terms of stats he'd be fine.


i'd admit that shaq let kobe get his during the 1st 3 rounds of 2001 and 2002. but we all know how stubborn shaq was during the finals and wanting kobe to know shaq was the lead dog... even though both guys could have taken turns winning finals mvp...

[ShaqTwizzle]

i'd admit that shaq let kobe get his during the 1st 3 rounds of 2001 and 2002. but we all know how stubborn shaq was during the finals and wanting kobe to know shaq was the lead dog... even though both guys could have taken turns winning finals mvp...

Well Kobe in 2002 averaged 27 / 6 / 5.3 on 62%TS against the #1 defense.
So... that performance alone was much better then his 08 or 10 Finals performances and honestly might even be better then his 2009 performance when you factor in the basically 10% difference in efficiency + fewer TOV's.
______

In the 2001 Finals he was at 50%TS despite Shaq doing his wrecking ball thing so... I see no reason to think he would have been well suited to be given even more shot attempts when he wasn't converting his actual number at a good rate.

Plus his overall number of shot attempts in that series was only slightly lower then his number in 2010 and basically equal with his attempts in 2008 so... even as "the man" he wasn't usually shooting that much more in the Finals.
________

So I really don't think Shaq held him back from putting up greater numbers.
He played well but he was still young while Shaq was a monster at his absolute zenith.

[kennethgriffin]

Well Kobe in 2002 averaged 27 / 6 / 5.3 on 62%TS against the #1 defense.
So... that performance alone was much better then his 08 or 10 Finals performances and honestly might even be better then his 2009 performance when you factor in the basically 10% difference in efficiency + fewer TOV's.
______

In the 2001 Finals he was at 50%TS despite Shaq doing his wrecking ball thing so... I see no reason to think he would have been well suited to be given even more shot attempts when he wasn't converting his actual number at a good rate.

Plus his overall number of shot attempts in that series was only slightly lower then his number in 2010 and basically equal with his attempts in 2008 so... even as "the man" he wasn't usually shooting that much more in the Finals.
________

So I really don't think Shaq held him back from putting up greater numbers.
He played well but he was still young while Shaq was a monster at his absolute zenith.


yes or no

if shaq wanted to. could he have let kobe be finals mvp in 2001 and 2002 without hindering the lakers chances vs philly and jersey

[MMM]

80's Kobe ain't kobe though
because there was no MJ to imitate

[kennethgriffin]

80's Kobe ain't kobe though
because there was no MJ to imitate


you do realize jordan stole all his moves from other guys right?


if kobe didnt emulate jordan he still would have gotten all he needed from dr J, Bird, west, maravich, barry, Baylor etc... heck even wilt had the fadeaway jumper down back in the 60s

[Dr Hawk]

you do realize jordan stole all his moves from other guys right?


if kobe didnt emulate jordan he still would have gotten all he needed from dr J, Bird, west, maravich, barry, Baylor etc... heck even wilt had the fadeaway jumper down back in the 60s

Admit that 80's Kobe wouldn't be 00's Kobe. That'sa fact. He would be a different player

[ShawkFactory]

jordans accomplishments are situational


any of the 10 greatest players ever could have stepped into that chicago team and won 6 titles while beating out pippen for finals mvp every time


thats all im saying


kobes biggest moments were not situational.. only kobe could do them
Only Kobe could win 3 titles with Shaq? Pretty sure Jordan could have done that :lol

And Wade for that matter.

[MMM]

you do realize jordan stole all his moves from other guys right?


if kobe didnt emulate jordan he still would have gotten all he needed from dr J, Bird, west, maravich, barry, Baylor etc... heck even wilt had the fadeaway jumper down back in the 60s

Kobe didn't just copy moves though and it was imitating MJ's mentality and personality that contributed to winning more so than stealing some moves.

[ISHGoat]

Why are you guys still responding to this loser?

[Asukal]

But why is it kobe MUST do all these things jordans known for?

Why cant kobe gain ground with his own big time moments

Why are the things jordans known for the end all be all


Thats my point

Because what Jordan did is much greater than all these things kobe are known for.

Who cares about 81 if you got 10 scoring titles?

Who cares about consecutive 50 point games in the regular season if you average 40 ppg in the FINALS?

Who cares about 62 points in 3 quarters if you score 63 in a playoff game against one of the GOAT teams?

Who cares about 12 threes in a game when you hit 6 threes in a half of a FINAL's game?

Jordan is the epitome of sustained excellence, Kobe is a one night stand.

Get that to your thick skull son. :whatever:

6/6 with 6 FMVPs >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5/7 with 2 FMVPs :hammerhead:

[stalkerforlife]

Kobe's the most skilled player of all time...i'll give you that.

And that's irrefutable.

[DrakeTheSnake]

Kobe couldn't hold Jordan's nuts, but he'd pay for the opportunity to try.

[#number6ix#]

Neither one of them could win shit without Phil Jackson/Tex Winters

[SouBeachTalents]

It's funny that one has 6 titles as 1st option, and one has 2

[JohnMax]

Kobe's scoring outbursts all come in the regular season. He couldn't do score as well as Jordan in the playoffs.