Pippen: In 1173 games, (49) 30+ games and (5) 40+ games.

[ClipperRevival]

And in the nearly 2 seasons when he had his own team in 1993-94 and 1994-95, he had (18) 30+ pt games and (1) 40+ pt game. He was 27 and 28 and dead in his prime for those two seasons.

These numbers simply prove that Pip was a great 2nd fiddle star who never had the iso scoring game to carry an offense every night. There are tiers for scorers. At the top are the guys who face the double every night and still dominate. Pip seldom faced the double and i can't imagine how much worse his offensive numbers would be had he attracted such attention. Don't get me wrong, Pip is one of the best all around performers ever but he was never an alpha scorer. I know there are some in here who always say he was. But he wasn't. It's not about pace or opportunity or anything else. He just wasn't. Again, Pip is an all time great performer but i do get annoyed with people trying to prop up his offensive game as if it was all these circumstances that prevented him from scoring more. You warrant the touches in the NBA.

[3ball]

agreed.. and it should be mentioned that pip's shot was b-r-o-k-e

you guys think lebron's shot is broke.

well lebron is curry from 3-point range and jordan from midrange compared to pip

[oarabbus]

And in the nearly 2 seasons when he had his own team in 1993-94 and 1994-95, he had (18) 30+ pt games and (1) 40+ pt game. He was 27 and 28 and dead in his prime for those two seasons.

These numbers simply prove that Pip was a great 2nd fiddle star who never had the iso scoring game to carry an offense every night. There are tiers for scorers. At the top are the guys who face the double every night and still dominate. Pip seldom faced the double and i can't imagine how much worse his offensive numbers would be had he attracted such attention. Don't get me wrong, Pip is one of the best all around performers ever but he was never an alpha scorer. I know there are some in here who always say he was. But he wasn't. It's not about pace or opportunity or anything else. He just wasn't. Again, Pip is an all time great performer but i do get annoyed with people trying to prop up his offensive game as if it was all these circumstances that prevented him from scoring more. You warrant the touches in the NBA.

People describe Kevin Love (and KG) the same way as the bold.


Either way you are right, Pippen was a great scorer but not THE alpha go to scorer, just didn't have it in him.

[kennethgriffin]

pippen played with a guy that attempted 25 shots a game

so...

[Smoke117]

This entire thread was literally made to try and upset me...I'm not sure why I should be anything else but flattered...that i'm this in your heads that you have to make threads about my argument...lol. I mean...I know I'm good at ruffling feathers...but shit...all this for me? You shouldn't have! I snooze through this kind of blatant laughable trolling. It's not just that I know more about basketball than you...it's that I can be fumble you ****ing mongoloids into making you do what I want.

[ClipperRevival]

Here's a quick tidbit. MJ, at the age of 39, scored 51 points. Pip's best over his entire career was 47. As a matter of fact, MJ had more 40+ point games (8) as a Wizard at the age of 38-40 than Pip's entire career.

[ClipperRevival]

This entire thread was literally made to try and upset me...I'm not sure why I should be anything else but flattered...that i'm this in your heads that you have to make threads about my argument...lol. I mean...I know I'm good at ruffling feathers...but shit...all this for me? You shouldn't have! I snooze through this kind of blatant laughable trolling. It's not just that I know more about basketball than you...it's that I can be fumble you ****ing mongoloids into making you do what I want.

Actually, this has been bothering me for a while with people overrating Pip's offensive game. But you did inspire me to actually look up the numbers.

[3ball]

pippen played with a guy that attempted 25 shots a game

so...
Pip was #1 option in 1994, but only averaged 22 ppg..

He's a 22 ppg #1 option, which is far from elite as scorers go.

[dubeta]

All I know is that he led the Bulls to practically the same record while MJ cowardly ran away from the Team in 1993, 55 wins and a bad call away from 4-peating without Jordan





All NBA 1st Team

All- Defensive 1st Team

Top 5 in MVP Voting




Pippen without Jordan >>>> Jordan without Pippen

[dhsilv]

Here's a quick tidbit. MJ, at the age of 39, scored 51 points. Pip's best over his entire career was 47. As a matter of fact, MJ had more 40+ point games (8) as a Wizard at the age of 38-40 than Pip's entire career.

And MJ scoring 51 was stupid then, scoring is just grossly over valued.

[3ball]

MJ scored at least 10 ppg more than Pip in every playoff series for their entire careers (except two when MJ scored 8 ppg and 5 ppg more).

No one in history has scored that much more than their 2nd option in the playoffs

[Jameerthefear]

All I know is that he led the Bulls to practically the same record while MJ cowardly ran away from the Team in 1993, 55 wins and a bad call away from 4-peating without Jordan





All NBA 1st Team

All- Defensive 1st Team

Top 5 in MVP Voting




Pippen without Jordan >>>> Jordan without Pippen
this. We can NEVER forget 1-9

[ClipperRevival]

All I know is that he led the Bulls to practically the same record while MJ cowardly ran away from the Team in 1993, 55 wins and a bad call away from 4-peating without Jordan





All NBA 1st Team

All- Defensive 1st Team

Top 5 in MVP Voting




Pippen without Jordan >>>> Jordan without Pippen

Lol. Being eliminated in the semis is one bad call away from 4 peating? So all these years CP3 was that close but we just didn't know it? Of course you don't mention them adding Kukoc, Kerr and Longley huh? Not to mention, MJ was the difference from a semis eliminated team to an all time great level 3 peat champ huh?

[DoctorP]

And in the nearly 2 seasons when he had his own team in 1993-94 and 1994-95, he had (18) 30+ pt games and (1) 40+ pt game. He was 27 and 28 and dead in his prime for those two seasons.

These numbers simply prove that Pip was a great 2nd fiddle star who never had the iso scoring game to carry an offense every night. There are tiers for scorers. At the top are the guys who face the double every night and still dominate. Pip seldom faced the double and i can't imagine how much worse his offensive numbers would be had he attracted such attention. Don't get me wrong, Pip is one of the best all around performers ever but he was never an alpha scorer. I know there are some in here who always say he was. But he wasn't. It's not about pace or opportunity or anything else. He just wasn't. Again, Pip is an all time great performer but i do get annoyed with people trying to prop up his offensive game as if it was all these circumstances that prevented him from scoring more. You warrant the touches in the NBA.

Yeah, but that's why he was an ideal second option.

[dubeta]

Bulls with MJ and Pippen won 57 games in 1993


But with only Pippen they won 55 games in 1994





How was Pippen able to make do with Jordan's absence, how did Pippen cover Jordan's scoring absence?



There are two options

1) Pippen is a far better scorer than OP is letting us on about, and thus was able to fully replicate Jordan's offensive impact without him, leading to the same win total

Or


2) Jordan's scoring had little impact on the game, and thus even Jordan's scoring absence results in the same overall team success, highlighting Jordan's lack of impact with his scoring.


Which one is it?

[3ball]

.
This was the consensus about Pippen:



Shaquille O'Neal:

"You did okay, but MJ did most of the work"

"Remember I WAS BATMAN YOU WAS ROBIN , I was PUFFY YOU WAS MASE"

"See what happens when Michael Jordan ain't protecting you, you lose a 17 pt lead in the fourth quarter." (referring to 2000 WCF Game 7)



Bill Laimbeer:


"We didn't even think about Scottie Pippen. It was Michael Jordan and the Jordannaires - and you can't win championships like that with only 1 player."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h07m33s



JERRY KRAUSE, Bulls GM:

[indent][I]

[dubeta]

Lol. Being eliminated in the semis is one bad call away from 4 peating? So all these years CP3 was that close but we just didn't know it? Of course you don't mention them adding Kukoc, Kerr and Longley huh? Not to mention, MJ was the difference from a semis eliminated team to an all time great level 3 peat champ huh?

1994 Bulls also dealt with a ton of injuries if I recall correctly , Pippen was the only star on that team.


Bottom line, if the refs don't call that bogus foul on Pippen, they win the ring that year as well.

[3ball]

Yeah, but that's why he was an ideal second option.


not really...

his offense was often anemic.. he would literally disappear like he did in 1996 Finals (15 ppg on 34%) or 1998 Finals (15 ppg on 41%, including 8 and 6 points in final 2 games).

overall, he averaged 17/7/5 on 40.8% during 1996-1998 playoffs (2nd three-peat).

that is NOT ideal offense for a 2nd option.. good thing the Bulls had the goat scorer

[ClipperRevival]

Yeah, but that's why he was an ideal second option.

Exactly. That's all i'm saying. Let's see Pip for what he was. Not what he could've or should've been.

[3ball]

But with only Pippen they won 55 games in 1994


3-peat chemistry will get ANY team to the 2nd Round with marginal talent - and that's exactly what happened in 1994.

Furthermore, the 94' Bulls weren't going to rebound from their 2nd Round defeat and do better the next year - they were a 2nd Round team PERMANENTLY without Jordan, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.

Obviously, the gap between permanent 2nd Round team and 3-peat dynasty is utterly massive.

[Smoke117]

3-peat chemistry will get ANY team to the 2nd Round with marginal talent - and that's exactly what happened in 1994.

Furthermore, the 94' Bulls weren't going to rebound from their 2nd Round defeat and do better the next year - they were a 2nd Round team PERMANENTLY without Jordan, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.

Obviously, the gap between permanent 2nd Round team and 3-peat dynasty is utterly massive.

So any team can lose the best player in the world and still be screwed out of an ECF berth by a bullshit call? Tell me more, mate.

[3ball]

Exactly. That's all i'm saying. Let's see Pip for what he was. Not what he could've or should've been.
If Pippen was an ideal 2nd option scoring-wise, then MJ wouldn't have needed to score so much.

He wouldn't have needed to score 10 ppg more than Pippen for every playoff series of their careers (except two, where MJ scored 8 ppg and 5 ppg more)

Are you saying that Pip's 17/7/5 on 40.8% during 1996-1998 playoffs was ideal for a 2nd option?

Are you saying that Pip's frequent DISAPPEARANCE on offense was ideal, such as his 15 ppg on 34% in 1996 Finals, or his 15 ppg on 41% in 1998 Finals (including 8 and 6 points in final 2 games)???
.

[Horatio33]

And in the nearly 2 seasons when he had his own team in 1993-94 and 1994-95, he had (18) 30+ pt games and (1) 40+ pt game. He was 27 and 28 and dead in his prime for those two seasons.

These numbers simply prove that Pip was a great 2nd fiddle star who never had the iso scoring game to carry an offense every night. There are tiers for scorers. At the top are the guys who face the double every night and still dominate. Pip seldom faced the double and i can't imagine how much worse his offensive numbers would be had he attracted such attention. Don't get me wrong, Pip is one of the best all around performers ever but he was never an alpha scorer. I know there are some in here who always say he was. But he wasn't. It's not about pace or opportunity or anything else. He just wasn't. Again, Pip is an all time great performer but i do get annoyed with people trying to prop up his offensive game as if it was all these circumstances that prevented him from scoring more. You warrant the touches in the NBA.


Isn't this the most obvious post ever. Pippen was the perfect 2nd fiddle.

[3ball]

So any team can lose the best player in the world and still be screwed out of an ECF berth by a bullshit call? Tell me more, mate.
that post explained it well enough..

it's not my fault if you don't know what chemistry and teamwork is, and therefore can't appreciate 3-peat caliber chemistry and teamwork.

also, the "if this.. if that" doesn't work, because the Bulls were a Kukoc walk-off away from going down 0-3 and likely being swept.

but the kukoc walk-off saved the team from embarrassment without MJ, and if they had gotten swept, the miracle shot likely saved Pip from being traded.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Bulls with MJ and Pippen won 57 games in 1993


But with only Pippen they won 55 games in 1994





How was Pippen able to make do with Jordan's absence, how did Pippen cover Jordan's scoring absence?


Uhhh, because it was PIPPEN HIMSELF along with Grant who had subpar years in 1993, which iss what caused the Bulls to "only" win 57 games. Pippen admitted that he doggedd it that regular season due to fatigue from the Dream Team. The next season, you had Pippen and Grant performing up to their 1992 levels (when the Bulls won 67 games), plus they added some scoring/passing punch in Kukoc and role players, plus playing against teams who underestimated them, plus playing in a (to that time) nearly historically weak league (league-wide ORtg dropped nearly 2 points between 1993 and 1994) along with 6 years of championship experience, chemistry, an equal opportunity offensive system and GOAT coaching.

I love how no one wants to compare the '94 Bulls to the 67 wwin '92 Bulls when it was Pippen and Grant who caused the '93 Bulls to have such a relatively poor record to begin with.

[OldSchoolBBall]

So any team can lose the best player in the world and still be screwed out of an ECF berth by a bullshit call? Tell me more, mate.

That call would not have guaranteed them an ECF berth. Try again. Those Bulls likely don't even get past the first round had the Cavs been healthy.

[3ball]

.
Let's recount a few of Pippen's many chokes:


1990 ECF Game 7: 2 points.. 1-10 FG

1994 ECSF Game 3: sits out final possession in a complete failure of leadership and his brain

1996 Finals: 15 ppg on a WOAT 34%

1998 Finals: 15 ppg on 41%, including 8 points and 6 points in final 2 games


For every playoff series of Pip's career, MJ scored at least 10 ppg more than him, except twice when MJ scored 8 ppg and 5 ppg more... No 2nd option in history was THAT far behind his #1 option.

[3ball]

Pip was ideal 2nd option


Not scoring-wise - if Pippen was an ideal 2nd option scoring-wise, then MJ wouldn't need to score so much.

MJ wouldn't need to score 10 ppg more than Pippen for every playoff series of their careers (except two, where MJ scored 8 ppg and 5 ppg more)

Also, are you saying that Pip's 17/7/5 on 40.8% during 1996-1998 playoffs was ideal for a 2nd option?

Are you saying that Pip's frequent DISAPPEARANCE on offense was ideal, such as his 15 ppg on 34% in 1996 Finals, or his 15 ppg on 41% in 1998 Finals (including 8 and 6 points in final 2 games)???

[Smoke117]

That call would not have guaranteed them an ECF berth. Try again. Those Bulls likely don't even get past the first round had the Cavs been healthy.

Riddle me this, riddle me that...are you even a Bulls fan?

[3ball]

Riddle me this, riddle me that...are you even a Bulls fan?
it should be mentioned that pip's shot was b-r-o-k-e

like, you guys think lebron's shot is broke.

well lebron is curry from 3-point range and jordan from midrange compared to pip

[3ball]

That call would not have guaranteed them an ECF berth. Try again. Those Bulls likely don't even get past the first round had the Cavs been healthy.
Very true..

And the 94' Bulls weren't going to rebound from their early round defeat and do better the next year - they were a 1st Round team PERMANENTLY without Jordan, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.

Obviously, the gap between permanent 1st Round team and 3-peat dynasty is utterly massive.
.

[3ball]

.
Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor


.
........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997.... 36.0..... 40.1..... 37.7..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998.... 36.3..... 42.1..... 39.7..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)


PIPPEN 1997..... 24.7..... 22.2..... 24.6..... 25.6....... 25.1...... 26.4
PIPPEN 1998..... 24.1..... 19.7..... 21.9..... 15.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)....... 22.1...... 14.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)



There's a couple ways to look at this data.

You can either say that "wow, MJ's proportion of the team's 4th quarter points was twice as much as Pippen.. MJ carried the heaviest load."

Or, you can say "wow, MJ and Pip scored 75% of their team's 4th quarter points (in 1997) - they had no help and were a top-heavy team.. MJ carried the heaviest load".

Either way, the result is the same - MJ's goat and carried the GOAT load... Btw, Pippen was AIDS in the 4th during 1998 playoffs and Finals - MJ did everything.

[dhsilv]

Uhhh, because it was PIPPEN HIMSELF along with Grant who had subpar years in 1993, which iss what caused the Bulls to "only" win 57 games. Pippen admitted that he doggedd it that regular season due to fatigue from the Dream Team. The next season, you had Pippen and Grant performing up to their 1992 levels (when the Bulls won 67 games), plus they added some scoring/passing punch in Kukoc and role players, plus playing against teams who underestimated them, plus playing in a (to that time) nearly historically weak league (league-wide ORtg dropped nearly 2 points between 1993 and 1994) along with 6 years of championship experience, chemistry, an equal opportunity offensive system and GOAT coaching.

I love how no one wants to compare the '94 Bulls to the 67 wwin '92 Bulls when it was Pippen and Grant who caused the '93 Bulls to have such a relatively poor record to begin with.

We're still talking a 12 game drop and the bulls really didnt add anything close to a legit starting shooting guard to that team. Pippen played absolutely amazing defense when Jordan left.

Pippen is imo the guy I MOST want to see real plus minus data on and why I hope and pray some day some professor puts all his grad students into watching every damn 90's nba game and charting the play by play so we can get that data!

I fully believe Pippen would shock people on those kinds of stats because he was just absurdly valuable in so many ways that the box score will never adequately capture.

[Dragonyeuw]

Uhhh, because it was PIPPEN HIMSELF along with Grant who had subpar years in 1993, which iss what caused the Bulls to "only" win 57 games. Pippen admitted that he doggedd it that regular season due to fatigue from the Dream Team. The next season, you had Pippen and Grant performing up to their 1992 levels (when the Bulls won 67 games), plus they added some scoring/passing punch in Kukoc and role players, plus playing against teams who underestimated them, plus playing in a (to that time) nearly historically weak league (league-wide ORtg dropped nearly 2 points between 1993 and 1994) along with 6 years of championship experience, chemistry, an equal opportunity offensive system and GOAT coaching.

I love how no one wants to compare the '94 Bulls to the 67 wwin '92 Bulls when it was Pippen and Grant who caused the '93 Bulls to have such a relatively poor record to begin with.

Because it kills their argument, granted the 94 Bulls probably could have won 60+ had Pippen and Grant not missed 10+ games that year. But still, its rarely mentioned that Pippen's production dropped off in 93 from the prior year, specifically in scoring there was a 14 point difference between MJ (32.6) and Pip(18.6).

The 93 team was more about pacing themselves for that third title run, and as defending champs would have everyone gunning for them. The 94 team pretty much maxed out, and expectations were clearly lower, I doubt everyone was gunning for them like the 93 team with Jordan. Still, without MJ they had a championship poise that made them largely overachieve. But a second round exit is about the best that team could reasonably hope for, bad call or not. Hypothetically with an MJ still in his prime, Pippen and Grant in theirs, with the additions of Kukoc, Longley etc, that team easily wins the championship and may have been arguably the best of those Bulls title teams, 96 team included.

So comparing 57 vs 55 wins between the teams without context has always been a flawed weapon for the MJ detractors to use to diminish his impact.

[sdot_thadon]

See, I don't understand this. Pippen was the ultimate 2nd option, not even approached by anyone else ever except perhaps young kobe. Why Jordanaires have this eternal mission of trashing all of Mjs teammates is beyond me. They want to overstate the already sizable gap between Mj and pip as players, not give any credit to his contributions and basically disrespect a legend constantly. No matter how you fellas spin this bullshit, it can't add to Mjs career of take away from scotties. It already happened and was documented. Pippen was the 2nd best perimeter player in the league for most of the 90s. So either that pippen guy was pretty great, or..... Mj had shit competition on the perimeter during the 90s?

[Dragonyeuw]

Why Jordanaires have this eternal mission of trashing all of Mjs teammates is beyond me. They want to overstate the already sizable gap between Mj and pip as players, not give any credit to his contributions and basically disrespect a legend constantly.

On the flipside, you have your MJ haters who blindly scream 1-9 and 57 vs 55 wins to discredit MJ. You seem reasonable enough to see that the door swings both ways. The only MJ fan I see who goes out of his way to discredit Pip is 3ball. The rest of the MJ/Bulls fans I feel respect what Pippen brought to the table, even while acknowledging MJ as the catalyst for those squads. It is possible to give the two of them their just due.

[3ball]

See, I don't understand this. Pippen was the ultimate 2nd option


Not scoring-wise - if Pippen was an "ultimate" 2nd option scoring-wise, then MJ wouldn't need to score so much.

MJ wouldn't need to score 10 ppg more than Pippen for every playoff series of their careers (except two, where MJ scored 8 ppg and 5 ppg more).. No one has ever scored this much more than their 2nd option for every playoff series of their careers - it's pretty ridiculous.

Pippen only averaged 17/7/5 on 40.8% during 1996-1998 playoffs - this included his WOAT Finals performances in 1996 (15 ppg on 34%) and 1998 (8 and 6 points in final 2 games.. 15 ppg on 41% overall)... This is far from the "ultimate 2nd option".





As a 2nd option, Pippen isn't even approached by anyone else ever except perhaps young kobe.


Ridiculous - how about Kareem, Magic, Penny, McHale, Worthy, Dr. J in 1983, Stockton, just to name a few.

Heck, how about 2011 prime Wade, who averaged 26 ppg in playoffs and 27 ppg in Finals?

There are many more - again, Pippen averaged 17/7/5 on 40.8% in 1996-1998 playoffs, which is far from a best-ever 2nd option, especially when that includes two WOAT Finals.





Pippen was the 2nd best perimeter player in the league for most of the 90s.


More bullshit... Payton, Stockton, Drexler, Penny, Hill, Dominique and King were all better at various points in the 90's.
.

[sdot_thadon]

On the flipside, you have your MJ haters who blindly scream 1-9 and 57 vs 55 wins to discredit MJ. You seem reasonable enough to see that the door swings both ways. The only MJ fan I see who goes out of his way to discredit Pip is 3ball. The rest of the MJ/Bulls fans I feel respect what Pippen brought to the table, even while acknowledging MJ as the catalyst for those squads. It is possible to give the two of them their just due.
Understood, the trolls that do that are basically counter trolling the 2 for 6 stuff, this place is a cesspool at times unfortunately. But you guys already know ahead of time those kids don't know what happened back then. The only time it's worth referring to that is when people act as if Mj was a one man traveling circus winning rings with the 3 stooges. It's more shameful to me that adults who watched it live supposedly need to warp the facts. It's more damaging than helpful to how the new generation who didn't get to watch them perceive Mj and his legacy. I saw it happen with wilt during Mjs time. These guy just need to keep it real.

[sdot_thadon]

Not scoring-wise - if Pippen was an "ultimate" 2nd option scoring-wise, then MJ wouldn't need to score so much.

MJ wouldn't need to score 10 ppg more than Pippen for every playoff series of their careers (except two, where MJ scored 8 ppg and 5 ppg more).. No one has ever scored this much more than their 2nd option for every playoff series of their careers - it's pretty ridiculous.

Pippen only averaged 17/7/5 on 40.8% during 1996-1998 playoffs - this included his WOAT Finals performances in 1996 (15 ppg on 34%) and 1998 (8 and 6 points in final 2 games.. 15 ppg on 41% overall)... This is far from the "ultimate 2nd option".



Ridiculous - how about Kareem, Magic, Penny, McHale, Worthy, Dr. J in 1983, Stockton, just to name a few.

Heck, how about 2011 prime Wade, who averaged 26 ppg in playoffs and 27 ppg in Finals?

There are many more - again, Pippen averaged 17/7/5 on 40.8% in 1996-1998 playoffs, which is far from a best-ever 2nd option, especially when that includes two WOAT Finals.



More bullshit... Payton, Stockton, Drexler, Penny, Hill, Dominique and King were all better at various points in the 90's.
Quit crying dude. Mj didn't "have" to score that much, he demanded to. None of those 2nd options you named has the same utility, or could impact the games as hugely without shots as pippen. So in terms of compatibility he is unapproached. And your list of 90s guys better than pippen? :oldlol: none of them were as good over the entire 90s.

Gp: pretty close at times as a number one option compared to a no. 2. Ridiculous
Stockton: underrated generally but couldn't impact the overall game the way scottie did.
Drexler: past prime for most of the 90s. Was already declining when he got here in 95.
Penny: one of my favorite players ever but nah.
Hill: was on a trajectory to be better than scottie and even could say had better seasons than scottie.....as a no.1 vs. A no. 2 option.
Dominique: past prime for how much of the 90s bro?
King: :biggums:

2nd 3peat the only guy you could menation was hill, with the caveat that most of us knew scottie could do similar if not better than what grant was doing with his own team. See: 1994.

[3ball]

The only MJ fan I see who goes out of his way to discredit Pip is 3ball.


Show me specifically where I'm unreasonable in trashing Pippen.

When I trash Pippen, I do so with facts, because there are MANY when it comes to Pippen.. I post his shitty stats... I post the plethora of quotes from other players who feel the same way I do... I post the biggest-ever gap between his 2nd option stats and Jordan's first option stats.. I post about his many chokes.

These are all facts that I accentuate to prove he wasn't anywhere NEAR other 2nd options like Kareem, Magic, McHale, Dr. J, Kobe, and many more.

And the only thing I ever say about 1994, is that the Bulls were a 2nd Round team without MJ, and a 3-peat dynasty with MJ.

What's wrong with that?... It's the exact truth - that was MJ's impact - it couldn't be more clear-cut... Tell me where I'm wrong.
.

[kennethgriffin]

Pip was #1 option in 1994, but only averaged 22 ppg..

He's a 22 ppg #1 option, which is far from elite as scorers go.



yet people on here say duncans better than kobe with his best scoring season being some 22ppg shit



and pippens an even better on ball defender than duncan


funny how we let 1 guy slide for not putting up great scoring numbers due to his defensive impact but not others

[3ball]

King: :biggums:


BERNARD. KING 1991: 28/5/5.. all-star
SCOTTIE PIPPEN 1991: 18/7/6.. not all-star

[Yoshio]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qd6Aq1FeyA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJmT8b0z6lQ

[Dragonyeuw]

Show me specifically where I'm unreasonable in trashing Pippen.

When I trash Pippen, I do so with facts, because there are MANY when it comes to Pippen.. I post his shitty stats... I post the plethora of quotes from other players who feel the same way I do... I post the biggest-ever gap between his 2nd option stats and Jordan's first option stats.. I post about his many chokes.

These are all facts that I accentuate to prove he wasn't anywhere NEAR other 2nd options like Kareem, Magic, McHale, Dr. J, Kobe, and many more.

And the only thing I ever say about 1994, is that the Bulls were a 2nd Round team without MJ, and a 3-peat dynasty with MJ.

What's wrong with that?... It's the exact truth - that was MJ's impact - it couldn't be more clear-cut... Tell me where I'm wrong.
.

On the flipside, you have your MJ haters who blindly scream 1-9 and 57 vs 55 wins to discredit MJ. The only MJ fan I see who goes out of his way to discredit Pip is 3ball. The rest of the MJ/Bulls fans I feel respect what Pippen brought to the table, even while acknowledging MJ as the catalyst for those squads. It is possible to give the two of them their just due.

[sdot_thadon]

BERNARD. KING 1991: 28/5/5.. all-star
SCOTTIE PIPPEN 1991: 18/7/6.. not all-star
Sure, at 23.6 fga per game to 14.1......

I saw I you paste post a chuck daly quote on scottie, why not post what he had to say about him In 92?
[QUOTE]I remember talking to the late Chuck Daly after that 1992 Dream Team and Daly raving about Pippen. Daly said he knew Pippen was a potential MVP candidate type player, but said Pippen was the best player on the 1992 team.

[LAZERUSS]

I won't take the time to look it up, but I doubt that Bill Russell had as many 40+ point games as Pippen did.

Pippen was a WORLD-CLASS defender, an excellent passer, a solid scorer, and overall, could lead a team to 55+ wins.

In fact, with LESS help than MJ had before Pippen arrived, Pippen was able to single-handedly take the '95 Bulls to a 34-31 record. MJ never had a winning record without Pippen.

[Angel Face]

Pip was a great complimentary player. Greatest sidekick imo. Never been a great 1st option. The reason Bulls won 55 games despite MJ playing baseball was because of team chemistry due to threepeating, same situation as the Wariiors right now. The Warriors doesn't have the most stacked team in the league, doesn't have the biggest names in the league, but they're playing well with each other.

[NBASTATMAN]

Still a great player.... More of a team player that is why he never scored big.... Im sure he could have scored 50 if he went for it

[necya]

just read the first page :face palm there is no hope for those guys

[riseagainst]

agreed, without Pippen, Jordan wouldn't have won 6. Pippen is a top 50 all time player in his own right. Jordan did not make Pippen.

[sd3035]

The Bulls were only two games worse, and had a better defensive rating without Ordan

Pippen was clearly the catalyst for their success

Pip :applause: :applause: :applause:

[ShawkFactory]

The Bulls were only two games worse, and had a better defensive rating without Ordan

Pippen was clearly the catalyst for their success

Pip :applause: :applause: :applause:
Why do you remove the J?

[3ball]

Why do you remove the J?



He's annoyed that Jordan was a better shooter from midrange and inside 20 feet than his idol Steph Curry:


.....................MJ 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)...................Cur ry 2015 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)............ Curry 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/) (<--- THESE ARE LINKS!!)

5-9 ft.......... 49.2%, 126 fga........... 40.3%, 72 fga.......... 53.1%, 32 fga

10-14 ft....... 51.5%, 466 fga........... 52.9%, 85 fga.......... 52.2%, 23 fga

15-19 ft....... 49.5%, 594 fga........... 43.9%, 132 fga........ 41.7%, 48 fga



Overall midrange % (all shots inside the 3-point line but outside the paint)

JORDAN 1997: 49.3%, 1202 fga

CURRY.. 2015: 41.1%, 285 fga
CURRY.. 2016: 45.1%, 82 fga

LEBRON 2015: 37.0%, 343 fga
LEBRON 2016: 31.9%, 119 fga


Anyone who disagrees that MJ is a better shooter than Curry inside 20 feet or from midrange must explain why Curry shoots far worse percentage inside 20 feet and from midrange... :hammerhead:

[dubeta]

Bottom line: Pippen was better than Jordan. Just ask Madonna

[3ball]

The Bulls were only two games worse without MJ


Only 2 games worse without MJ???... That's laughable - they fell from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd round team.. That's a massive drop-off... 3-peat dynasty to ordinary team... Yikes

3-peat chemistry will get ANY team to the 2nd Round with marginal talent - and that's exactly what happened in 1994.

Furthermore, the Bulls weren't going to rebound from their 2nd Round defeat and do better the next year - they were a 2nd Round team PERMANENTLY without Jordan, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.

Obviously, the gap between permanent 2nd Round team (or worse) and 3-peat dynasty is utterly massive.





The Bulls and had a better defensive rating in 1994


So did the entire league - but relative to the competition, the Bulls were better defensively in 1993 (4th in league) than they were in 1994 (6th).

But here's what you're forgetting - the Bulls were 14th in the league offensively in 1994 (106 ORtg), but were #1 all-time with Jordan (113 to 115 ORtg from 1991-1993).

Normally when a team improves that much offensively, it comes at the expense of their defense because teams have a FINITE (fixed or limited) amount of energy to expend at both ends..

But as I just showed, the Bulls defense was better with Jordan, despite their massive offensive improvement.. This was the impact of MJ - he enabled a two-way team - goat offense, with no drop-off defensively.

[Da_Realist]

Why do you remove the J?

Childish

[OnFire]

Pip was #1 option in 1994, but only averaged 22 ppg..

He's a 22 ppg #1 option, which is far from elite as scorers go.

Yeap he's so bad he'd have a max contract off that in 2016 and be top 12 in scoring... trash i guess.

He'd be ahead of Melo, Kawhi, Butler, Wiggins, Klay, etc to name a few. trash.

[feyki]

Scoring probably most overrated stat in people sense .

[90sgoat]

It's good you use stats, but anyone who watched Pippen knew he was a poor shooter. He could hit open 3s but could not create a jumpshot or barely hit one midrange. He was a slasher, post player and open court. Half court game was suspect.

[Da_Realist]

In fact, with LESS help than MJ had before Pippen arrived, Pippen was able to single-handedly take the '95 Bulls to a 34-31 record. MJ never had a winning record without Pippen.

Please explain...

[Smoke117]

Because it kills their argument, granted the 94 Bulls probably could have won 60+ had Pippen and Grant not missed 10+ games that year. But still, its rarely mentioned that Pippen's production dropped off in 93 from the prior year, specifically in scoring there was a 14 point difference between MJ (32.6) and Pip(18.6).

The 93 team was more about pacing themselves for that third title run, and as defending champs would have everyone gunning for them. The 94 team pretty much maxed out, and expectations were clearly lower, I doubt everyone was gunning for them like the 93 team with Jordan. Still, without MJ they had a championship poise that made them largely overachieve. But a second round exit is about the best that team could reasonably hope for, bad call or not. Hypothetically with an MJ still in his prime, Pippen and Grant in theirs, with the additions of Kukoc, Longley etc, that team easily wins the championship and may have been arguably the best of those Bulls title teams, 96 team included.

So comparing 57 vs 55 wins between the teams without context has always been a flawed weapon for the MJ detractors to use to diminish his impact.

You know what else is hardly mentioned? The fact that Scottie was playing through a severe ankle sprain through a good part of that season.

[Bankaii]

Playing along side a guy taking 23-24 FGA per game may be the reason for that.

He never had an opportunity to become a flat out scorer.

Scoring had become vastly overrated anyway.

[OnFire]

Never in my life before stumbling upon InsideHoops had i ever seen so many people, or even any that i can recall really, downplaying their team. Until then it was all "We're #1, we have the best 1-5, our team has way better players."... the loser mentality on Insidehoops is "all our players suck, but look how well we did anyway".. this is some weak ass sauce.

[SexSymbol]

He was never that good of a scorer to average 25 ppg consistently, and his scoring was pretty easily shut down if needed to from another team.

[Smoke117]

I won't take the time to look it up, but I doubt that Bill Russell had as many 40+ point games as Pippen did.

Pippen was a WORLD-CLASS defender, an excellent passer, a solid scorer, and overall, could lead a team to 55+ wins.

In fact, with LESS help than MJ had before Pippen arrived, Pippen was able to single-handedly take the '95 Bulls to a 34-31 record. MJ never had a winning record without Pippen.

The Bulls were 2nd in defense that season...look at that overall line up...how was it possible? Scottie Pippen had the most dominant defensive season by a perimeter player of all time. He CARRIED that bulls team to a winning record that they shouldn't have even had after losing both Michael and Horace. I also love how everyone mentions how Jordan turned that 95 Bulls team around...without mentioning the fact that they were 8-2 in the 10 previous games before he even came back.

[Smoke117]

Still a great player.... More of a team player that is why he never scored big.... Im sure he could have scored 50 if he went for it

Easily. He dropped 43 in a 91 game in 31 minutes.

[Smoke117]

Yeap he's so bad he'd have a max contract off that in 2016 and be top 12 in scoring... trash i guess.

He'd be ahead of Melo, Kawhi, Butler, Wiggins, Klay, etc to name a few. trash.

The funniest thing about what he's blabbering on about is that the Bulls SLOWED DOWN THE OFFENSE and went defensive. Also to note...Tex Winters has said that the 94 bulls ran the triangle better than any other team EVER. Scottie could have easily averaged more than 22ppg...he was putting that up on 49% in a slow down offense...but he couldn't score? lol. The reason the Bulls were even successful was because Scottie was such a high IQ player and realized that him taking 20+ shots and going out to get his wasn't going to get wins. He's literally the most unselfish player of all time when you add the talent and skill he had. You got a clown like Antoine Walker averaging 23ppg on 21 shots and then you have a guy like Scottie who sacrificed personal glory for the team...

[Smoke117]

Scottie Pippen is actually the perfect guy to use if you want to separate those who know basketball...from those that don't. If you want to downplay his contributions...you just don't understand basketball, period.

[Round Mound]

Scottie Pippen is actually the perfect guy to use if you want to separate those who know basketball...from those that don't. If you want to downplay his contributions...you just don't understand basketball, period.

:applause:

[Da_Realist]

The funniest thing about what he's blabbering on about is that the Bulls SLOWED DOWN THE OFFENSE and went defensive. Also to note...Tex Winters has said that the 94 bulls ran the triangle better than any other team EVER. Scottie could have easily averaged more than 22ppg...he was putting that up on 49% in a slow down offense...but he couldn't score? lol. The reason the Bulls were even successful was because Scottie was such a high IQ player and realized that him taking 20+ shots and going out to get his wasn't going to get wins. He's literally the most unselfish player of all time when you add the talent and skill he had. You got a clown like Antoine Walker averaging 23ppg on 21 shots and then you have a guy like Scottie who sacrificed personal glory for the team...

To be fair... that was Scottie's game. That's how he wanted to play and that's how he was the most productive. It's not a sacrifice if that's how he wanted to play anyway.

The 94 Bulls ran the triangle to perfection because they HAD to. It was the only way they could score consistently enough and it played into their star's wheelhouse. There was no temptation to play any other way.

[Smoke117]

To be fair... that was Scottie's game. That's how he wanted to play and that's how he was the most productive. It's not a sacrifice if that's how he wanted to play anyway.

The 94 Bulls ran the triangle to perfection because they HAD to. It was the only way they could score consistently enough and it played into their star's wheelhouse. There was no temptation to play any other way.

Tex Winters had criticisms for every player he coached alongside Phil...BUT SCOTTIE. Michael, Kobe, Shaq...he critiqued...SCOTTIE was the one sole player that he never had any criticism to give because he was the one player that did EVERYTHING RIGHT. He's also on paper saying that he wasn't sure that Jordan didn't need Pippen more than Pippen needed Jordan.

[Da_Realist]

Tex Winters had criticisms for every player he coached alongside Phil...BUT SCOTTIE. Michael, Kobe, Shaq...he critiqued...SCOTTIE was the one sole player that he never had any criticism to give because he was the one player that did EVERYTHING RIGHT. He's also on paper saying that he wasn't sure that Jordan didn't need Pippen more than Pippen needed Jordan.

Sure. Jack of all trades... I'm not denying that he's a great player but his offense had limits. That's why he had to do everything right. He had to maximize everything else.

About the critiques... MJ, Kobe, Shaq were all on a higher level so expectations for them were higher as well. Plus, when you are as talented as those three, you want to step out of the offense and display your creativity. It's natural.

This is also why Tex said Jordan needed Pippen more than Pippen needed Jordan. MJ had GOAT level expectations that couldn't be fulfilled if he didn't have a quality team. Pippen didn't need MJ like MJ needed Pippen because MJ was expected to win titles while dominating the league. Pippen never had those expectations. He could quietly have a good game and go home. People would talk about how he led his teams to 55 wins or he had great all around stats or he was a beast defensively. He didn't need MJ to do that. But MJ was expected to dominate while winning titles in order to compete with the other great players he was being compared to.

[ClipperRevival]

Lol at Pip fans getting all defensive. This was expected. I only made this thread to make one simple point. If you don't get the point, move along.

[Smoke117]

Lol at Pip fans getting all defensive. This was expected. I only made this thread to make one simple point. If you don't get the point, move along.

A guy with a Michael Jordan avatar thinks Scottie Pippen's contributions to the Bulls championship are overrated...noooooo...really? Tell me more.

[Milbuck]

Pippen in today's era would be a worse defensive Tony Allen with slightly better passing. Can't believe Jordan won 6 rings with that dude as his #2.

[juju151111]

What was Mj record before Pippen arrived back in 98. Mj was 35 with a messed up wrist and Rodman decling going off the rails.

[3ball]

.

Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor


.
........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997.... 36.0..... 40.1..... 37.7..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998.... 36.3..... 42.1..... 39.7..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)


PIPPEN 1997..... 24.7..... 22.2..... 24.6..... 25.6....... 25.1...... 26.4
PIPPEN 1998..... 24.1..... 19.7..... 21.9..... 15.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)....... 22.1...... 14.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)


LEBRON 2009.... 35.0..... 39.3..... 41.5..... 42.4
LEBRON 2010.... 34.6..... 44.4..... 32.6..... 40.3
LEBRON 2011.... 32.0..... 32.8..... 28.1..... 30.7...... 21.4...... 14.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2010-11&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
LEBRON 2012.... 34.2..... 33.8..... 34.5..... 34.9...... 30.0...... 33.3
LEBRON 2013.... 32.1..... 32.1..... 30.6..... 36.0...... 29.3...... 39.1
LEBRON 2014.... 33.1..... 38.2..... 35.3..... 32.1...... 39.6...... 29.5
LEBRON 2015.... 30.1..... 38.9..... 35.0..... 42.4...... 40.0...... 44.5
LEBRON 2016.... 33.4..... 40.9

CURRY 2015..... 29.9..... 36.2...... 33.4..... 36.6...... 29.3...... 40.6
CURRY 2016..... 35.1..... 40.7


This data shows Pippen's contribution was a small fraction of MJ's, while Lebron and Curry don't compare either.

This is the best proof that MJ carried the heaviest load.

[dhsilv]

Sure. Jack of all trades... I'm not denying that he's a great player but his offense had limits. That's why he had to do everything right. He had to maximize everything else.

About the critiques... MJ, Kobe, Shaq were all on a higher level so expectations for them were higher as well. Plus, when you are as talented as those three, you want to step out of the offense and display your creativity. It's natural.

This is also why Tex said Jordan needed Pippen more than Pippen needed Jordan. MJ had GOAT level expectations that couldn't be fulfilled if he didn't have a quality team. Pippen didn't need MJ like MJ needed Pippen because MJ was expected to win titles while dominating the league. Pippen never had those expectations. He could quietly have a good game and go home. People would talk about how he led his teams to 55 wins or he had great all around stats or he was a beast defensively. He didn't need MJ to do that. But MJ was expected to dominate while winning titles in order to compete with the other great players he was being compared to.

Basically MJ's ego forced him to find the one guy in the history of the game who could play with him and make him better? That is what you're implying...

[sd3035]

This data shows Pippen's contribution was a small fraction of MJ's, while Lebron and Curry don't compare either.

This is the best proof that MJ carried the heaviest load.

not according to Madonna

[LAZERUSS]

This data shows Pippen's contribution was a small fraction of MJ's, while Lebron and Curry don't compare either.

This is the best proof that MJ carried the heaviest load.

All of which doesn't diminish the fact that, overall, Pippen was a GREAT player (and most lists have him between top-30 to top-50 all-time.)

[3ball]

not according to Madonna
I realize why I have zero responses on that data - it's ether.

it ends the argument of who carried the biggest load.

[Smoke117]

I realize why I have zero responses on that data - it's ether.

it ends the argument of who carried the biggest load.

Pretty sure Madonna can end that argument too...

[tmacattack33]

Slightly surprising, but not really.

Pippen was not a great first option scorer, but he was a good first option once you took into consideration his passing skills as well.

And of course his defense was the best part about his game, and he was a good rebounder too.

[3ball]

.
KEMP.. 1996 RS: 19.6 ppg.. 11.4 rpg.. 2.1 apg.. 1.2 spg.. 1.6 bpg.. 56.1 fg.. 63.1 ts
PIPPEN 1996 RS: 19.4 ppg... 6.4 rpg.. 5.9 apg.. 1.7 spg.. 0.7 bpg.. 46.3 fg.. 55.1 ts

KEMP.. 1996 PO: 20.9 ppg.. 10.4 rpg.. 1.5 apg.. 1.4 spg.. 2.0 bpg.. 57.0 fg.. 64.0 ts
PIPPEN 1996 PO: 16.9 ppg... 8.5 rpg.. 5.9 apg.. 2.6 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 39.0 fg.. 47.3 ts


KEMP.. 1996 FINALS: 23.3 ppg.. 10.0 rpg.. 2.2 apg.. 1.3 spg.. 2.0 bpg.. 55.1 fg.. 63.3 ts
PIPPEN 1996 FINALS: 15.7 ppg... 8.2 rpg.. 5.3 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 1.3 bpg.. 34.3 fg.. 42.9 ts
.

[Smoke117]

Slightly surprising, but not really.

Pippen was not a great first option scorer, but he was a good first option once you took into consideration his passing skills as well.

And of course his defense was the best part about his game, and he was a good rebounder too.

It has nothing to do with that...he was just unselfish to a fault. Again...Antoine Walker averaged 23.4ppg...more than Pippen ever did. The problem? He was launching up 21.2 shots a game to do it. There has and there will always be guys who are so unselfish that their numbers don't tell the true story. Rasheed Wallace is another one...he could have easily been averaging 22-25ppg for an entire decade if he wanted to, but being a good team player meant more to him than personal glory. Antoine Walker is the reverse side of this coin...a guy who was never good enough to be taking all the shots he took, but whose ego was ridiculous.

I also don't know why I have to keep explaining the fact that Scottie played in an offense (the triangle) that wasn't geared towards his game at all. Shawn Marion averaged 21.8ppg on .525% on the run and gun offense of the Suns in 2006...is there anyone who can seriously say Scottie wouldn't do better than that? I can't think anyone believes Marion is as talented or skilled as Pippen offensively.

[3ball]

.
KEMP.. 1996 RS: 19.6 ppg.. 11.4 rpg.. 2.1 apg.. 1.2 spg.. 1.6 bpg.. 56.1 fg.. 63.1 ts
PIPPEN 1996 RS: 19.4 ppg... 6.4 rpg.. 5.9 apg.. 1.7 spg.. 0.7 bpg.. 46.3 fg.. 55.1 ts

KEMP.. 1996 PO: 20.9 ppg.. 10.4 rpg.. 1.5 apg.. 1.4 spg.. 2.0 bpg.. 57.0 fg.. 64.0 ts
PIPPEN 1996 PO: 16.9 ppg... 8.5 rpg.. 5.9 apg.. 2.6 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 39.0 fg.. 47.3 ts


KEMP.. 1996 FINALS: 23.3 ppg.. 10.0 rpg.. 2.2 apg.. 1.3 spg.. 2.0 bpg.. 55.1 fg.. 63.3 ts
PIPPEN 1996 FINALS: 15.7 ppg... 8.2 rpg.. 5.3 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 1.3 bpg.. 34.3 fg.. 42.9 ts
.
Is it even possible for a player to be considered a "good" scorer with stats like that?

34% for an entire series??... When has anyone ever shot that bad?... Who did Pippen think he was??... 2016 Kobe?

That's the only guy that has ever shot that badly... And honestly, I bet today's version of Kobe can STILL (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11977764&postcount=29) shatter Pip's ankles.

[AintNoSunshine]

90's are known for a lack of great scorers anyway. Jordan faced sht competition.

[3ball]

90's are known for a lack of great scorers anyway. Jordan faced sht competition.


.
The wings from MJ's era match today's era man-for-man and are better overall:


...2000-2014.................1984-1998

Kobe Bryant.............. Michael Jordan
LeBron James............ Magic Johnson
Kevin Durant............. Larry Bird
Dwayne Wade........... Clyde Drexler
Russell Westbrook..... Gary Payton
Tracey McGrady........ Dominique Wilkins
James Harden........... Grant Hill
Kawhi Leonard.......... Scottie Pippen
Paul Pierce............... Adrian Dantley
Carmelo Anthony....... Alex English
Vince Carter............. James Worthy
Allen Iverson............ Penny Hardaway
Jason Kidd................ Jason Kidd


Honorable Mention 1984-1998: Doctor J, Dennis Rodman, Reggie Lewis, Reggie Miller, Sidney Moncrief, Joe Dumars, Eddie Jones, Mitch Richmond, Alvin Robertson, Detlef Schrempf, Dennis Johnson, Latrell Sprewell, Ronaldo Blackman, Fat Lever, Glen Rice, Chris Mullin, Kiki Vandeweghe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0ZCbZq8wWg), Jamaal Mashburn, Glenn Robinson

Honorable Mention 2000-2014: Ron Artest, Shawn Marion, Andre Igouodala, Ray Allen, Paul George, Manu Ginobili, Brandon Roy, Klay Thompson, Jimmy Butler, Joe Johnson, Rip Hamilton, Gilbert Arenas, Michael Redd, Draymond Green, Peja Stojakovic, Antawn Jamison, Luol Deng, Rashard Lewis



And we already know the bigs were WAY better.. So try again bud.

[ClipperRevival]

It has nothing to do with that...he was just unselfish to a fault. Again...Antoine Walker averaged 23.4ppg...more than Pippen ever did. The problem? He was launching up 21.2 shots a game to do it. There has and there will always be guys who are so unselfish that their numbers don't tell the true story. Rasheed Wallace is another one...he could have easily been averaging 22-25ppg for an entire decade if he wanted to, but being a good team player meant more to him than personal glory. Antoine Walker is the reverse side of this coin...a guy who was never good enough to be taking all the shots he took, but whose ego was ridiculous.

I also don't know why I have to keep explaining the fact that Scottie played in an offense (the triangle) that wasn't geared towards his game at all. Shawn Marion averaged 21.8ppg on .525% on the run and gun offense of the Suns in 2006...is there anyone who can seriously say Scottie wouldn't do better than that? I can't think anyone believes Marion is as talented or skilled as Pippen offensively.

Jesus Christ man. The more you make these type of Pip excuse type posts, the worse you make yourself look. The guy simply didn't have "the man" type offensive game. It had absolutely nothing to do with circumstances, being unselfish, the system or anything else. Why can't you get this through your thick head?

I am not here to bash the guy. He is one of the best all around players ever and anyone who questions this is an idiot. But come on, he simply didn't have the offensive game to carry an offense and take over games offensively. There is a reason why he MJ faced hard doubles and he didn't. There is a reason why he only topped 30+ points 49 times in 1137 games. Accept the guy for what he was (which is an all time great 2nd fiddle star) instead of making excuses for what he was't (alpha dog scorer). Just be objective.

[AintNoSunshine]

.
The wings from MJ's era match today's era man-for-man and are better overall:


...2000-2014.................1984-1998

Kobe Bryant.............. Michael Jordan
LeBron James............ Magic Johnson
Kevin Durant............. Larry Bird
Dwayne Wade........... Clyde Drexler
Russell Westbrook..... Gary Payton
Tracey McGrady........ Dominique Wilkins
James Harden........... Grant Hill
Kawhi Leonard.......... Scottie Pippen
Paul Pierce............... Adrian Dantley
Carmelo Anthony....... Alex English
Vince Carter............. James Worthy
Allen Iverson............ Penny Hardaway
Jason Kidd................ Jason Kidd


Honorable Mention 1984-1998: Doctor J, Dennis Rodman, Reggie Lewis, Reggie Miller, Sidney Moncrief, Joe Dumars, Eddie Jones, Mitch Richmond, Alvin Robertson, Detlef Schrempf, Dennis Johnson, Latrell Sprewell, Ronaldo Blackman, Fat Lever, Glen Rice, Chris Mullin, Kiki Vandeweghe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0ZCbZq8wWg), Jamaal Mashburn, Glenn Robinson

Honorable Mention 2000-2014: Ron Artest, Shawn Marion, Andre Igouodala, Ray Allen, Paul George, Manu Ginobili, Brandon Roy, Klay Thompson, Jimmy Butler, Joe Johnson, Rip Hamilton, Gilbert Arenas, Michael Redd, Draymond Green, Peja Stojakovic, Antawn Jamison, Luol Deng, Rashard Lewis



And we already know the bigs were WAY better.. So try again bud.


Dude, except for Kobe=Jordan, and Jason Kidd=Jason Kidd, none of the 90's guys you listed were better scorers than their 00-15's counterparts.:oldlol:

You just helped me proof my point. Thanks I guess?:oldlol:

[Straight_Ballin]

On the flipside, you have your MJ haters who blindly scream 1-9 and 57 vs 55 wins to discredit MJ. You seem reasonable enough to see that the door swings both ways. The only MJ fan I see who goes out of his way to discredit Pip is 3ball. The rest of the MJ/Bulls fans I feel respect what Pippen brought to the table, even while acknowledging MJ as the catalyst for those squads. It is possible to give the two of them their just due.

Are we going to pretend that Jordan didn't mold Pippen? That he didn't make him practace and work out at MJ's house before the Bulls actual practice? That Pippen didn't have to cover GOAT MJ in practice all the time? This is all well documented. What more was expected of MJ to make Pippen better? He did as much as he could to help pippen improve without hurting his own training regimen. Never before has there ever been a man so damn dead set on winning that he gave up valuable days of his life to make a teammate become as good as he possibly could.

The result?

6/6 finals perfection

GOAT impact and I watched it all happen live.

[3ball]

.

The wings from MJ's era match today's era man-for-man and are better overall:


...2000-2014.................1984-1998

Kobe Bryant.............. Michael Jordan
LeBron James............ Magic Johnson
Kevin Durant............. Larry Bird
Dwayne Wade........... Clyde Drexler
Russell Westbrook..... Gary Payton
Tracey McGrady........ Dominique Wilkins
James Harden........... Grant Hill
Kawhi Leonard.......... Scottie Pippen
Paul Pierce............... Adrian Dantley
Carmelo Anthony....... Alex English
Vince Carter............. James Worthy
Allen Iverson............ Penny Hardaway
Jason Kidd................ Jason Kidd


Honorable Mention 1984-1998: Doctor J, Dennis Rodman, Reggie Lewis, Reggie Miller, Sidney Moncrief, Joe Dumars, Eddie Jones, Mitch Richmond, Alvin Robertson, Detlef Schrempf, Dennis Johnson, Latrell Sprewell, Ronaldo Blackman, Fat Lever, Glen Rice, Chris Mullin, Kiki Vandeweghe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0ZCbZq8wWg), Jamaal Mashburn, Glenn Robinson

Honorable Mention 2000-2014: Ron Artest, Shawn Marion, Andre Igouodala, Ray Allen, Paul George, Manu Ginobili, Brandon Roy, Klay Thompson, Jimmy Butler, Joe Johnson, Rip Hamilton, Gilbert Arenas, Michael Redd, Draymond Green, Peja Stojakovic, Antawn Jamison, Luol Deng, Rashard Lewis


And we already know the bigs were WAY better.. So try again bud.


I bolded the guys I think are better...

(I actually don't think Lebron > Magic, or Vince > Worthy, but I wanted to come up with a list people would agree with, and I know Lebron and Vince are very popular.)

Regarding Payton vs. Westrook - Payton was 1st team All-NBA in 1998 and 2001, while Westbrook has never been 1st team... Westbrook is also a worse defender and inefficient chucker - the new Iverson.

If you put Payton alongside Durant, that Thunder team is MUCH better - they'd be true contenders.. Ditto on 2-time first team all-nba Penny.
.

[deja vu]

Pippen was a good scorer, just not on the level of all-time great scorers like MJ, Kobe, Wade, LeBron, etc.

He just wasn't offensively skilled enough to be one

Doesn't matter because he's probably the greatest perimeter defender of all time.

Anybody would want a Pippen on their team. He'd most likely be a max player nowadays.

[3ball]

Doesn't matter because he's probably the greatest perimeter defender of all time.



Pippen was more of a roamer than a lockdown individual defender - he couldn't handle quick wings with good handle like Hill or Kobe:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/NZrhCv.gif



Here's Kobe shaking his head after breaking Pippen BADLY in 99' - Pippen is joke to him:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/DtKoPr.gif..



But just a few months earlier, 35-year old Jordan had no problem stuffing Kobe's crossover in 98' ASG:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/EStPHq.gif



Here's another one - Pippen can't handle Grant off-the-dribble - he can't stay in front:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-09-2015/5FXjSn.gif



But MJ can - he stays in front of Grant every step of the way and forces wild shot:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/n1LWjI.gif


The reason MJ was so much better defending quick ballhandlers like Hill, Kobe or Westbrook is because he was a 2-guard, and was the frequently the primary, all-game defender on quick point guards.

For example, MJ was matched up against Gary Payton from the TIP-OFF in Game 3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meL62CUehuw&t=0m48s) and Game 5 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFiqeJcgXfg) of the NBA Finals and was the main defender throughout the game..

MJ was also the main defender and matched up from the tip-off against Isiah Thomas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9MfhFFE7fc&t=0m28s) and Rod Strickland (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3JqY3CECW8).. And we all know he was matched up from tip-off against Magic, when he guarded Magic for 14 of 20 quarters (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713075&postcount=45) (70%) in the 1991 Finals.

MJ's far greater experience playing quick ballhandling guards and his superior athleticism made him a better perimeter defender than Pippen..

Btw, Pippen's inferior defense isn't only shown by the eye test - the stats prove it too - virtually every decent wing in the league went off for HUGE games on Pippen - 35, 40, and 50 point games - whereas MJ rarely gave up a big game to anyone.
.

[feyki]

Dude, except for Kobe=Jordan, and Jason Kidd=Jason Kidd, none of the 90's guys you listed were better scorers than their 00-15's counterparts.:oldlol:

You just helped me proof my point. Thanks I guess?:oldlol:

Wilkins=Tmac , English=Melo , Dantley=Pierce too imo .

[hitmanyr2k]

The Bulls were only two games worse, and had a better defensive rating without Ordan

Pippen was clearly the catalyst for their success

Pip :applause: :applause: :applause:

Even better was the '95 season. No Jordan, no Horace, no credible PF or center and a SF anchors that team to the 2nd best defense in the league leading in just about every statistical category. He was clearly the catalyst for their defense as Phil Jackson states on more than one occassion.

"His greatest strength was his knowledge of how things worked on the defensive end of the floor,” he said. “Scottie was the voice of our team—figuratively and literally, as he did a lot of the talking and kept our team on the same page. When he wasn’t at the top of the key harassing a guard as a special assignment, he was on the backside of our defense talking his teammates through different situations, whether it was a double team, trap or some other important aspect. Because of that, he was very vital to the run that we made."


"The other thing that I remember probably most about Scottie was a sequence which he had to direct the defense. Scottie was our voice on defense. He had, as you can tell, a tremendous voice. He has a deep resonating voice that could be heard on the court. And he also had the ability to talk to his teammates, and send them and direct them. But we had to trap Stockton when he got over half court, and try to get the ball out of his hands. And he had to come from the farthest place on the court to trap with either Steve Kerr if he was guarding Stockton, or Ronnie Harper if he was guarding Stockton, so we could get the ball out of his hands. And then he had to get back to the other side of the court once Stockton got the ball out of his hands. I can remember him calling and directing the team during those situations. Those are the things that made Scottie not only a great player, but also a great team leader that was so important to our basketball club"

[Dragonyeuw]

Are we going to pretend that Jordan didn't mold Pippen? That he didn't make him practace and work out at MJ's house before the Bulls actual practice? That Pippen didn't have to cover GOAT MJ in practice all the time? This is all well documented. What more was expected of MJ to make Pippen better? He did as much as he could to help pippen improve without hurting his own training regimen. Never before has there ever been a man so damn dead set on winning that he gave up valuable days of his life to make a teammate become as good as he possibly could.

T

Are you going to pretend that I suggested otherwise? Regardless of the extent of what impact MJ had on Pippen, the point is Pippen was a valuable part of the Bulls championship teams. Are you going to pretend he wasn't?

[sdot_thadon]

Pippen was more of a roamer than a lockdown individual defender - he couldn't handle quick wings with good handle like Hill or Kobe:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/NZrhCv.gif



Here's Kobe shaking his head after breaking Pippen BADLY in 99' - Pippen is joke to him:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/DtKoPr.gif..



But just a few months earlier, 35-year old Jordan had no problem stuffing Kobe's crossover in 98' ASG:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/EStPHq.gif



Here's another one - Pippen can't handle Grant off-the-dribble - he can't stay in front:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-09-2015/5FXjSn.gif



But MJ can - he stays in front of Grant every step of the way and forces wild shot:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/n1LWjI.gif


The reason MJ was so much better defending quick ballhandlers like Hill, Kobe or Westbrook is because he was a 2-guard, and was the frequently the primary, all-game defender on quick point guards.

For example, MJ was matched up against Gary Payton from the TIP-OFF in Game 3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meL62CUehuw&t=0m48s) and Game 5 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFiqeJcgXfg) of the NBA Finals and was the main defender throughout the game..

MJ was also the main defender and matched up from the tip-off against Isiah Thomas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9MfhFFE7fc&t=0m28s) and Rod Strickland (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3JqY3CECW8).. And we all know he was matched up from tip-off against Magic, when he guarded Magic for 14 of 20 quarters (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713075&postcount=45) (70%) in the 1991 Finals.

MJ's far greater experience playing quick ballhandling guards and his superior athleticism made him a better perimeter defender than Pippen..

Btw, Pippen's inferior defense isn't only shown by the eye test - the stats prove it too - virtually every decent wing in the league went off for HUGE games on Pippen - 35, 40, and 50 point games - whereas MJ rarely gave up a big game to anyone.
.
You should really consider taking another 10-15 to think through your posts man, maybe even an hour if the gears don't turn fast enough. You get pretty close to good thoughts but never see them through enough to know if they stand on their own or not. There's a reason all of your posts get thrashed within the 1st or 2nd reply.

Your Lil gif collection is nice if not cherry picked as always. I'll just poke one hole in it this time. The grant hill gifs are pretty misleading. The one where scottie is guarding him is a blow by in open space. There's no back line of the defense help wise and the paint is miraculously empty, a phenomenon you told me didn't occur before the lebron era. Mj guarding him with a man attempting a pick nearby, which hill rejects only giving the option of going left. Also Mj doesn't stop hill, helps comes and is ultimately what stops him. Without the help rotating over hill gets all the way to the basket with Mj on him. Not the same situation whatsoever. Nice try though.:coleman: