Which of ISH's top 11 of all time would you pick LAST to start a franchise with?

[SouBeachTalents]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Magic Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Tim Duncan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Lebron James

[Quickening]

Kobe of course...

[Prime_Shaq]

Pains me to say, but probably Kobe or Hakeem

[Killbot]

I'd say the city.

[ISHGoat]

With knowledge of how their careers play out, there are probably 25 players I'd pick over Kobe, including everyone on that list.

The reason Kobe is a top10-top15 GOAT is because of CIRCUMSTANCE. Not because of his overwhelming IMPACT ala MJ, Lebron, Shaq, Kareem, etc.

[Smoke117]

Kobe, obviously. Primeshaq did you just say Kobe or Hakeem? How can you possibly make a case for Kobe to start a team over Hakeem who is the greatest modern defensive player of all time while being an great offensive player, too? You can't. It's going to be infinitely easier to build around Hakeem than it is Kobe. You are already killing two birds with one stone...a 1st option and an anchor for your defense.

[Jameerthefear]

Kobe Bryant.

[feyki]

Shaq .

[Prime_Shaq]

Kobe, obviously. Primeshaq did you just say Kobe or Hakeem? How can you possibly make a case for Kobe to start a team over Hakeem who is the greatest modern defensive player of all time while being an great offensive player, too? You can't. It's going to be infinitely easier to build around Hakeem than it is Kobe. You are already killing two birds with one stone...a 1st option and an anchor for your defense.
Yeah he's a great individual player for me but his playoff record for most part of his prime was pretty lackluster

[Smoke117]

Yeah he's a great individual player for me but his playoff record for most part of his prime was pretty lackluster

...his teams for the most part of his prime were lackluster...nobody can do it alone. That 1994 team is one of the weakest championship teams ever and they got it done because of how dominant he was.

[Prime_Shaq]

...his teams for the most part of his prime were lackluster...nobody can do it alone. That 1994 team is one of the weakest championship teams ever and they got it done because of how dominant he was.
Well it would seem we already have a consensus answer here :lol

[LAZERUSS]

Easily Hakeem.

Hell, I wouldn't think twice in taking Moses over him.

[ArbitraryWater]

Since when did ISH have a top 11?

Anyway, pretty sure the whole point of the list is that the Greatest / Nr.1 is the one you'd start your franchise with, and 11 the least one..

Such a played out discussion.

[AnaheimLakers24]

If i want to win rings, than lesmalldick

[Sakkreth]

Kobe. Least impact. Btw that voting was rigged.

[Kawhi]

KoMe.

[tobethdope]

lebold or kobe, by miles...

[Akrazotile]

Why is Kobe even in ISH's top 11??

Makes this board look terrible.

[T_L_P]

Kobe Bryant.

[Harison]

I think even Kobe would pick himself in this thread :(

[StephHamann]

Shaq

left Orlando in shambles like a little bitch

[imdaman99]

Depends. Do I want him winning ring(s) for my team or do I want him going elsewhere for rings?

What is the bottom line for a franchise? Is it championships or ticket sales or jersey sales?

3 out of those 11 players won rings for some other franchise and none for the franchise that drafted him.

As a Knicks fan, I couldn't care less about how many rings someone wins for another team...I would be happy seeing 1 :(

[Cold soul]

Hakeem for me. Lol at people picking Kobe.

[HOoopCityJones]

LOL @ picking Kobe.

Ya have fuccing short memories or are retarded.

[Akrazotile]

LOL @ picking Kobe.

Ya have fuccing short memories or are retarded.


The issue is the other guys on that list have SIZE that Kobe just cant compete with. Im not talking about height necessarily, but those other players are just LARGE in ways Kobe cant really compare to. Based on that alone hes ranked much further down, somewhere around jeff hornacek and earl boykins.

[HOoopCityJones]

The issue is the other guys on that list have SIZE that Kobe just cant compete with. Im not talking about height necessarily, but those other players are just LARGE in ways Kobe cant really compare to. Based on that alone hes ranked much further down, somewhere around jeff hornacek and earl boykins.

I'll take Kobe's scoring, playmaking and defense in his prime over size anyday. Outside of Shaq, Kareem, and maybe Wilt. I'm taking Kobe over any big.

[FKAri]

Lebron, Magic, or Bill Russell. Not because they're not great but because it's harder to build around those guys. Last among them? Bill Russell.

Actually quite easily, Bill Russell. Not nearly as good as the rest. "Great" player but not one of the best.

[Noyze]

Not being a Kobe hater at all but if you look at that list all of them make more of an impact, especially if you're trying to build a franchise. So you gotta pick Kobe last.

Laughing at people picking Hakeem, arguably the greatest defensive player of all time and a near dominant scorer. I mean the dude is nothing but positive for your team as he doesn't even need the ball to make a huge impact on the game.


Lebron, Magic, or Bill Russell. Not because they're not great but because it's harder to build around those guys. Last among them? Bill Russell.

Actually quite easily, Bill Russell. Not nearly as good as the rest. "Great" player but not one of the best.

A guard is harder to build around then a forward. That's a fact

[Cold soul]

I'll take Kobe's scoring, playmaking and defense in his prime over size anyday. Outside of Shaq, Kareem, and maybe Wilt. I'm taking Kobe over any big.

I'll take Kobe over Wilt too big of big stage chocker. Kobe the superior winner.

[feyki]

Easily Hakeem.

Hell, I wouldn't think twice in taking Moses over him.

He is best defender of all time , not named Bill Russell . And He has great offence . Most versatile center ever .

[ArbitraryWater]

The issue is the other guys on that list have SIZE that Kobe just cant compete with. Im not talking about height necessarily, but those other players are just LARGE in ways Kobe cant really compare to. Based on that alone hes ranked much further down, somewhere around jeff hornacek and earl boykins.

:roll:


I'll take Kobe over Wilt too big of big stage chocker. Kobe the superior winner.

Kobe doesn't even begin to be close to the player Wilt is :oldlol:

[Fudge]

Not even because I don't like the guy, but EASILY Kobe.

There's really no other correct answer.

[TheMan]

Easily Hakeem.

Hell, I wouldn't think twice in taking Moses over him.
The underrating of Hakeem, SMH

If anything, Bill Russell should be it, or Kobe.

[FreezingTsmoove]

Shaq because its a given thats hes going to leave

Lol at people saying Hakeem. The all time leader in blocked shots, one of the best defensive anchors of all time, great leadership, loyalty, and you can run your teams offense through the post

[mehyaM24]

wilt is probably first.

his lack of playoff success is alarming. his numbers dramatically 'dipped' in all categories.

kobe would be second. probably the least efficient of the group, and his leadership is very questionable.

jordan would be third. of all those players, he had the worst playoff start (1-9) and didn't win a series until pippen was drafted and became the bulls' LEAD playmaker and defender. like kobe, his leadership is poor.

[LAZERUSS]

He is best defender of all time , not named Bill Russell . And He has great offence . Most versatile center ever .

:roll: :roll: :roll:

A 39 year old Kareem was just ANNIHILATING a 24 year old Hakeem. He was ROUTINELY hanging 40+ point games on his sorry ass.

Meanwhile, a PEAK Kareem's HIGH game against a full-time (and fading) Thurmond was 34 points. BTW, in 23 career H2H's with Hakeem, KAJ shot .607 from the field. In his 35 career H2H's with Nate... a .447.

And Thurmond wasn't the defensive force that Chamberlain was. In fact, a prime Wilt was probably the equal of a prime Russell.

[Genaro]

Bill Russell. Guy would be a DeAndre Jordan in today's game.

[Wade's Rings]

:roll:



Kobe doesn't even begin to be close to the player Wilt is :oldlol:

I don't get it. What makes Wilt so great that a guy like Kobe isn't close to the player he is? The records while playing in a pace inflated era and statpadding for some numbers?

[LAZERUSS]

wilt is probably first.

his lack of playoff success is alarming. his numbers dramatically 'dipped' in all categories.

kobe would be second. probably the least efficient of the group, and his leadership is very questionable.

jordan would be third. of all those players, he had the worst playoff start (1-9) and didn't win a series until pippen was drafted and became the bulls' LEAD playmaker and defender. like kobe, his leadership is poor.

Give me your list of players, in their primes, who AVERAGED a 30-27-5-8 and shot about 10% above the post-season league eFG% average....all while just demolishing their HOF peers.

[mehyaM24]

Give me your list of players, in their primes, who AVERAGED a 30-27-5-8 and shot about 10% above the post-season league eFG% average....all while just demolishing their HOF peers.

or i can just link you his numbers in the regular-season vs playoffs.

the year wilt averaged 50ppg, his prime, he averaged just half of that in the postseason. :lol

[LAZERUSS]

or i can just link you his numbers in the regular-season vs playoffs.

the year wilt averaged 50ppg, his prime, he averaged just half of that in the postseason. :lol

Yep....all the way down to 35 ppg.

BTW, in that same season, he averaged 40 ppg against Russell in their regular season H2H's, and declined all the way down to 34 ppg in the ECF's. A massive drop.

Of course, Shaq's scoring and efficiency dropped in the post-season against the Robinson Spurs; MJ's dropped against the Bad Boys (particularly the 88-90 Pistons); Bird's took a sharp dive against the Lakers; and KAJ's dropped like a lead balloon against Wilt and Thurmond in the playoffs.

[Dr Hawk]

Bill Russell, no doubt. He is not in my Top10. Maybe in my Top20

[ShaqTwizzle]

Kobe or Wilt

[Dr Hawk]

Chamberlain with a proper coach could have been a lock for the Top3.

[LAZERUSS]

Kobe or Wilt

Just for your benefit...


Wilt actually played in 37 "elimination games",...games where either his team faced elimination, or could have clinched the series:

1. W: 53-22-2, 24-42 FG/FGA

2. W: 50-35-2, 22-42

3. L: 26-24-0, 8-18

4. L: 33-23-1, 13-29

5. W: 56-35-1, 22-48

6. W: 32-21-1, 12-29

7. L: 22-22-3, 7-15

8. W: 39-30-?, 19-29

9. L: 30-27-2, 12-28

10. W: 38-26-5, 14-22, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

11. W: 30-26-4, 13-22, 13 blks (Triple-Double)

12. L: 30-32-2, 12-15

13. L: 46-34-?, 19-34

14. W: 18-27-9, 7-14

15. W: 29-36-13, 10-16, 7 blks (Triple-Double)

16. W: 24-23-4, 8-13

17. W: 25-27-3, 10-19

18. L: 28-30-7, 11-21

19. L: 20-27-8, 6-21

20. L: 14-34-5, 4-9

21. W: 11-25-1, 5-9

22. W: 16-29-3, 5-11, 16 blks (Triple-Double)

23. L: 8-18-4, 1-5

24. L: 18-27-3, 7-8

25. W: 36-14-3, 12-20

26. W: 12-26-11, 4-11, 11 blks (Quad-Double)

27. W: 30-27-6, 11-18, 11 blks (Triple-Double)

28. W: 45-27-3, 20-27

29. L: 21-24-4, 10-16

30. W: 25-19-9, 7-12

31. L: 23-12-4, 10-21

32. W: 8-31-8, 4-6

33. W: 20-24-2, 8-12, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

34. W: 24-29-4, 10-14, 8 blks

35. W: 21-28-4, 10-17, 8 blks

36. W: 5-22-7, 2-2

37. L: 23-21-3, 9-16


W-L : 24-13

Here were Wilt's averages in those 37 games:

29.5 ppg

26.1 rpg

4.2 apg (missing one game)

.546 FG% (in post-seasons that shot about .440 on average in that span.)

Keep in mind that 24 of those 37 games came after his "scoring seasons" (59-60 thru 65-66)

[mehyaM24]

Yep....all the way down to 35 ppg.

exactly.

just as i said, a dramatic DOWNWARD spiral when it counted most. wilt was a great player - but not a GOAT caliber player e.g. russell & kareem.

btw, of all the top 10 candidates, i see his game suffering the most today.

[LAZERUSS]

exactly.

just as i said, a dramatic downward spiral when it counted most. great player - but not a GOAT caliber player e.g. russell & kareem.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Again...give me your list of GOATs that AVERAGED a 30-27-5-8 (while shooting a full 10% above the post-season league eFG%)...in their PRIMES...

and with 67% of those games coming against the likes of Russell and Thurmond-level defenders.

[feyki]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

A 39 year old Kareem was just ANNIHILATING a 24 year old Hakeem. He was ROUTINELY hanging 40+ point games on his sorry ass.

Meanwhile, a PEAK Kareem's HIGH game against a full-time (and fading) Thurmond was 34 points. BTW, in 23 career H2H's with Hakeem, KAJ shot .607 from the field. In his 35 career H2H's with Nate... a .447.

And Thurmond wasn't the defensive force that Chamberlain was. In fact, a prime Wilt was probably the equal of a prime Russell.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1986-nba-western-conference-finals-rockets-vs-lakers.html

This one , 23 years old Hakeem vs 38 years old Kareem at most important area .

Nate Thurmond probably best man to man defender in centers at nba history .

Wilt better rim ptotector than Hakeem , Wilt also better rim protector than Bill . But Hakeem more versatile defender than Wilt . And Hakeem has higher margin than Wilt at defensive side for me .

Kareem select Thurmond for his most difficult opponent . 1973 playoffs , nightmare for Kareem. And his worst playoffs performances .

Shooting percentage more about era than opponent . 70's tougher defensive era than 80's , so far .

And like i said , Hakeem is best defender of all time , not named Bill Russell .

[mehyaM24]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Again...give me your list of GOATs that AVERAGED a 30-27-5-8 (while shooting a full 10% above the post-season league eFG%)...in their PRIMES...

and with 67% of those games coming against the likes of Russell and Thurmond-level defenders.

why?

i just posted prime wilt's stat line where he averaged 50ppg in the regular-season, and 15 ppg less in the playoffs.

how about you find another player who had a 15ppg dropoff in the postseason?
(hint: you wont find one :lol)

[GoSpursGo1984]

Lol the Kobe haters coming out of the woodwork. Kobe has won Championships with two different completely different set of players with the only other great players he has played with is Shaq and Gasol. Some of these other players have had a lot better players to play with.

[outbreak]

Kobe out of those guys and wtf is he even doing at 8.

[outbreak]

Lol the Kobe haters coming out of the woodwork. Kobe has won Championships with two different completely different set of players with the only other great players he has played with is Shaq and Gasol. Some of these other players have had a lot better players to play with.
Yeah but all the other guys on the list are guys I'd rather build around from scratch.

[Fallen Angel]

Bill Russell

[Fallen Angel]

Russell probably isn't even Top 50 in all-time talent, he's a great defender who is well accomplished.

I could name 15-20 big men I'd take over him.

[ShaqTwizzle]

Lol the Kobe haters coming out of the woodwork. Kobe has won Championships with two different completely different set of players with the only other great players he has played with is Shaq and Gasol. Some of these other players have had a lot better players to play with.

Kobe winning those 2 Rings from 09-10 was indeed impressive but no more impressive then Hakeem's stretch from 93-95 which also ended with 2 Rings.
Infact it was probably less impressive then that Hakeem stretch given his weaker competition and stronger casts.

He also won as Shaq's sidekick but I mean c'mon.
You let a young Hakeem play with an equally talented perimeter star (91-93 Jordan) and you don't think he'd easily 3peat aswell?

Not like Kobe was super dominant during the 3peat outside of their 01 run.
-
00 Kobe : 21 / 4.6-apg on 52%TS
02 Kobe : 26 / 4.4-apg on 49%TS (pre-Finals)

[Dr Hawk]

Russell probably isn't even Top 50 in all-time talent, he's a great defender who is well accomplished.

I could name 15-20 big men I'd take over him.

This

[feyki]

Russell probably isn't even Top 50 in all-time talent, he's a great defender who is well accomplished.

I could name 15-20 big men I'd take over him.

He is greatest defender of all time and he has great playmaking . He also has 23-27-6 with %60 TS and goat defensive performances in nba finals a lot of times .

[ShaqTwizzle]

Let us not underrate Russell.
Defensively he was like Peak Hakeem on steroids.
He would probably be a top rebounder in any era also.

In terms of leadership ability and will to win he was above the Jordan/Bird level.
Everything he did was so his club would have a better chance of winning.
His intensity level was off the charts. He would throw up before every game.

Sure his questionable offensive ability might limit his overall impact in the modern league but I think its possible that he'd be an MVP candidate just based on his extreme non-offensive strengths and intangibles.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wilt

[LAZERUSS]

why?

i just posted prime wilt's stat line where he averaged 50ppg in the regular-season, and 15 ppg less in the playoffs.

how about you find another player who had a 15ppg dropoff in the postseason?
(hint: you wont find one :lol)

Find me another player who averaged 50 ppg in a regular season. (Hint: you won't find one.) :roll: :roll: :roll:

[feyki]

Wilt

Why?

[pastis]

Kobe Bryant or Bill Russel or Wilt

[Cocaine80s]

As a laker fan i would even say Kobe unfortunately

[Fallen Angel]

He is greatest defender of all time and he has great playmaking . He also has 23-27-6 with %60 TS and goat defensive performances in nba finals a lot of times .
That's in a different era with lesser talented players. I'm sure Robert Parish could put up similar or better stats in Russell's era.

[Akrazotile]

As a laker fan i would even say Kobe unfortunately


Honestly, Im kobes biggest stan on this site, and there are dozens of players Id rather start a team with :(

[ShaqTwizzle]

Why?

What is so alluring about Wilt?

Offensively his playoff stats are pretty mediocre even when compared against Hakeem's.

Defensively he was good but no better then Shaq.

He only won a single title during his Prime (67) and he arguably choked away two other "gimme" titles by badly under-performing.
His own teammate won FMVP in one of those series.

Had a poor mental approach to the game for most/much of his career and was the ultimate stat-padder.

Wilt was a GOAT athlete in one of the least athletic eras and he was an amazing rebounder.
Offensively though he had some real weaknesses that often got exposed against better competition/defenders and mentally he had some issues.

[feyki]

That's in a different era with lesser talented players. I'm sure Robert Parish could put up similar or better stats in Russell's era.

Parish could perfect fit for 60's . He has rebounding and defence . Probably , He averages 12-22-2 at 60's ; if he played at 60's . But doesn't matter for me. I create the My Paralell Universe and run them on the my mind :oldlol: .

Parish hasn't playmaking,defence,scoring and rebounding as Russell .

[game3524]

Wilt.

[feyki]

What is so alluring about Wilt?

Offensively his playoff stats are pretty mediocre even when compared against Hakeem's.

Defensively he was good but no better then Shaq.

He only won a single title during his Prime (67) and he arguably choked away two other "gimme" titles by badly under-performing.
His own teammate won FMVP in one of those series.

Had a poor mental approach to the game for most/much of his career and was the ultimate stat-padder.

Wilt was a GOAT athlete in one of the least athletic eras and he was an amazing rebounder.
Offensively though he had some real weaknesses that often got exposed against better competition/defenders and mentally he had some issues.

Do you really think Shaq better on defence than Wilt?

Prime Wilt better on offence(scoring,ast,shooting),rebounding and defence than Shaq when adjusting the numbers .

Don't judge with his 69-73 era . He was at his 32-36 . 64-68 Wilt has goat prime at nba history .

[game3524]

Do you really think Shaq better on defence than Wilt?

Prime Wilt better on offence(scoring,ast,shooting),rebounding and defence than Shaq when adjusting the numbers .

Don't judge with his 69-73 era . He was at his 32-36 . 64-68 Wilt has goat prime at nba history .

Wilt may have been better on offense in the regular season, but Shaq generally played his best when it mattered. Both wouldn't be my top choices due to Shaq being lazy and Wilt being extremely selfish. But I am taking Shaq over Wilt if I am starting a team, he just a more reliable foundation piece on a championship team.

[ShaqTwizzle]

Do you really think Shaq better on defence than Wilt?

Not better. Equal.
They were both dominant interior defenders who weren't great at perimeter defense.
Wilt played defense alot like Shaq did.


Prime Wilt better on offence(scoring,ast,shooting)

No.
Kareem or Shaq's offensive numbers across the board in the playoffs are far, far better then Wilt's.
Even Hakeem has better numbers on that end (in the playoffs).

And if you make minor adjustments for pace or minutes Wilt's Prime offensive playoff numbers are closer to David Robinson's then they are to Kareem or Shaqs.

Playoff stats (p42 min) (g = games)

Wilt (1960-66) (52g) : 29-ppg on 52%TS
D-Rob (90-96) (53g) : 26-ppg on 56%TS


rebounding

Yes.
Though different era so we can't say for sure what his rebounding numbers would be like today.
I do currently think he was a better rebounder then any of the other GOAT C's.

[Kawhi]

LOL @ picking Kobe.

Ya have fuccing short memories or are retarded.
You have no clue. It's much harder to build around a guard rather than a big. The only one who can go against bigs is Michael Jordan. KoMe Bryant =/= Michael Jordan.

[stalkerforlife]

LMAO @ having to resort to a "top 11" to include Bran.

Remember all the discussions, on the internet and TV, about who the top 11 of all time are? Me either. :lol

[DaRkJaWs]

First of all, I'm going to deduct 3 years from both Lebron and Kobe to account for what should have been their college career. So my question is, which is worse, 1999-2008 Kobe or 2006-2015 Lebron? The smarter answer is Lebron, but I'd take Kobe...remember that until lebron's 2011-2012 year he never really learned how to play off ball...everything relied on him. So a lot of his stats from 2006-2011 are stat padded as fock. They're actually closer than the official stats would indicate, or even their playstyle (because they are very different players).

that then brings Hakeem into the picture...would I start with Hakeem or Lebron...and I'd probably have to go with Lebron, so Hakeem is the player I'd start with last.

just FYI, anyone who picked anyone other than these three players is a loser, a pos, and a dumb fock. Seriously, get a focking clue kids :coleman:

[feyki]

Wilt may have been better on offense in the regular season, but Shaq generally played his best when it mattered. Both wouldn't be my top choices due to Shaq being lazy and Wilt being extremely selfish. But I am taking Shaq over Wilt if I am starting a team, he just a more reliable foundation piece on a championship team.

Wilt more versatile player than Shaq . He could everything on the court . And beside of Young Wilt , He always been clearly better defensive and playmaker player than Shaq . And If you can build big franchise-championship level team , i choose Wilt .



Not better. Equal.
They were both dominant interior defenders who weren't great at perimeter defense.
Wilt played defense alot like Shaq did.



No.
Kareem or Shaq's offensive numbers across the board in the playoffs are far, far better then Wilt's.
Even Hakeem has better numbers on that end (in the playoffs).

And if you make minor adjustments for pace or minutes Wilt's Prime offensive playoff numbers are closer to David Robinson's then they are to Kareem or Shaqs.

Playoff stats (p42 min) (g = games)

Wilt (1960-66) (52g) : 29-ppg on 52%TS
D-Rob (90-96) (53g) : 26-ppg on 56%TS



Yes.
Though different era so we can't say for sure what his rebounding numbers would be like today.
I do currently think he was a better rebounder then any of the other GOAT C's.


Peak to peak ;

64 Wilt numbers to be 26 pts , 17 rib , 3 ast , %61 TS on offensive side when adjusting the numbers to 2000 Shaq

67 Wilt numbers to be 16 pts , 18 rib , 7.2 ast , %59.5 TS

And Wilt has on ball defence as Kareem . Wilt probably 1-1.5 stl , 4-5 blk level player on defensive side at 100 poss . Shaq 0.5 stl , 3 blk .

Shaq clearly better scorer for me but Wilt has defending,rebounding,playmaking and shooting above Shaq .

[Angel Face]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Magic Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Tim Duncan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Lebron James

Almost the same list as mine, there are days where I put Tim Duncan ahead of Kobe and vice - versa. Those 2 are hard to rank. Last to pick is Lebron followed by Wilt. These 2 have the talent but always came up short on the biggest stage. Then Shaq, dominant but lacks loyalty.

Knowing how most of these guys career turns out. MJ for me is the clear cut choice to start a franchise with.

Without having any idea on what their careers will be, Hakeem. Too skilled for a big man.

[Harison]

Anyone mentioning Russell doesnt understand the game of basketball.

[ArbitraryWater]

LMAO @ having to resort to a "top 11" to include Bran.

Remember all the discussions, on the internet and TV, about who the top 11 of all time are? Me either. :lol

you realize thats not numbered, right? ISH doesn't have a top 11 nor would LeBron be below Hakeem.. unless OP went full retard which I doubt.

[ralph_i_el]

Kobe or Russell

[rmt]

Kobe

[stalkerforlife]

you realize thats not numbered, right? ISH doesn't have a top 11 nor would LeBron be below Hakeem.. unless OP went full retard which I doubt.

That's the official top 11 of ISH.

OFFICIAL.

There was a vote.

Now make your excuses.

[catch24]

Unless you're Michael Jordan, people are going to build around bigs first.

So that means which perimeter players you would build around LAST. And that's a tough question. Many would say Kobe because of his attitude (berating teammates, lack of accountability etc), but others would say LeBron (shrinks during big moments, bad finals record, etc).

Depending on your TEAM makeup, I think you'd be satisfied with either player.

[HOoopCityJones]

I'll take Kobe over any Big that isn't Shaq or Kareem.

[DaOldLion]

Not like Kobe was super dominant during the 3peat outside of their 01 run.
-
00 Kobe : 21 / 4.6-apg on 52%TS
02 Kobe : 26 / 4.4-apg on 49%TS (pre-Finals)


this is the type of retarted kobe hater logic that makes ish unbearable

you post two sets of inconsistent criteria..

you leave in the finals for 00 because it brings his averages down and then leave out the 02 finals because it brings his averages up if you left in the finals :facepalm :facepalm

anyways, Shaq.. no work ethic, had problems with teammates almost everywhere he went in his prime and played on like 7 different teams..

it would be much easier to build around Kobe than Shaq..

is it easier to find a Pau Gasol or is it easier to find a Dwayne Wade or Kobe Bryant?

yeah exactly..

[rmt]

That's the official top 11 of ISH.

OFFICIAL.

There was a vote.

Now make your excuses.

Please link to this vote. I seriously doubt any recent list that has Kobe over Duncan.

[DaOldLion]

Unless you're Michael Jordan, people are going to build around bigs first.

So that means which perimeter players you would build around LAST. And that's a tough question. Many would say Kobe because of his attitude (berating teammates, lack of accountability etc), but others would say LeBron (shrinks during big moments, bad finals record, etc).

Depending on your TEAM makeup, I think you'd be satisfied with either player.

Shaq fought with Penny and Kobe, showed signs of jelously when Wade took over, wasn't accountable at all (skipping off season surgery and getting it instead during the season)

with Shaq you have to find two of the top 4 SG ever or you don't win anything..

with Kobe you need a 18 & 10 big as your second option..

one of those is easier to find than the other when building around your superstar

[SamuraiSWISH]

Shaq fought with Penny and Kobe, showed signs of jelously when Wade took over, wasn't accountable at all (skipping off season surgery and getting it instead during the season)

with Shaq you have to find two of the top 4 SG ever or you don't win anything..

with Kobe you need a 18 & 10 big as your second option..

one of those is easier to find than the other when building around your superstar
Very good points

I'd say Shaq, Wilt or Russell as my last picks

[stalkerforlife]

Please link to this vote. I seriously doubt any recent list that has Kobe over Duncan.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=353428

Here's one...and there's many, many more.

How the hell you think Duncan is easily better than Kobe is pure stupidity.

Kobe was the player of the decade in Duncan's prime according to many, many sites and polls.

[Cold soul]

I'll take Kobe over any Big that isn't Shaq or Kareem.

Yeah same I'll take Kobe over Lebron as well.

[game3524]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=353428

Here's one...and there's many, many more.

How the hell you think Duncan is easily better than Kobe is pure stupidity.

Kobe was the player of the decade in Duncan's prime according to many, many sites and polls.

There has been alot of revisionist history regarding Duncan due to the Spurs 2014 championship.

Kobe is generally regarded as the best player of his era, by fellow players and sports media. Duncan being the best seems to be something that is said on forums like ISH and Realgm.

[TomBrady]

Kobe Bryant.

[iTare]

Lmao @ Kobetards getting mad. Don't take it to heart. He's still better than everyone else. Just not those 10.

[rmt]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=353428

Here's one...and there's many, many more.

How the hell you think Duncan is easily better than Kobe is pure stupidity.

Kobe was the player of the decade in Duncan's prime according to many, many sites and polls.

That is NOT what you stated:


That's the official top 11 of ISH.

OFFICIAL.

There was a vote.

Of course, any ESPN is going to list Kobe (because of popularity) higher than Duncan. ISH, I hope, is a little more knowledgeable and discerning. Show me your recent ISH vote that has Kobe over Duncan.

[Mr. Jabbar]

LOL @ picking Kobe.

Ya have fuccing short memories or are retarded.

I speak for the whole bran family (I was their leader for some time), when I say BOTH.

[FKAri]

Anyone mentioning Russell doesnt understand the game of basketball.

Anyone not mentioning Russell has never seen him play

[PsychoBe]

There has been alot of revisionist history regarding Duncan due to the Spurs 2014 championship.

Kobe is generally regarded as the best player of his era, by fellow players and sports media. Duncan being the best seems to be something that is said on forums like ISH and Realgm.

this. i dont feel the need to defend kobe from blatant trolls. if anyone seriously wants to know why refusing to build around kobe is the obviously wrong choice then i'll gladly clarify but other than that, players, commentators and coaches will always rank kobe as the greatest laker ever and the greatest player of his generation (and of the 2000's).

magic, russell, and wilt are players i'd never pick if forced to draft them.

bran, hakeem, shaq, and duncan i'd be on the fence about.

bird, kobe, jordan, and kareem would be a definite for me.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Shaq fought with Penny and Kobe, showed signs of jelously when Wade took over, wasn't accountable at all (skipping off season surgery and getting it instead during the season).

Kobe needed better teams and played worse competition than Shaq to win his titles as 'lead alpha'.

Nobody that isn't a moron would draft Bean over Shaq.

[PsychoBe]

Kobe needed better teams and played worse competition than Shaq to win his titles as 'lead alpha'.

Nobody that isn't a moron would draft Bean over Shaq.

get the fvck outta here :roll: :roll: :roll:

shaq had penny, wade, and kobe all in their primes and you want to say that kobe played with better teams?

and he didn't go against any "worse" competition that's a horrific myth.

nobody would draft a big that needed all-time great sg's to carry him, because those are hard to come by. when shaq had all-stars eddie jones and nick van-exel while kobe was on the bench? no rings.

[JT123]

get the fvck outta here :roll: :roll: :roll:

shaq had penny, wade, and kobe all in their primes and you want to say that kobe played with better teams?

and he didn't go against any "worse" competition that's a horrific myth.

nobody would draft a big that needed all-time great sg's to carry him, because those are hard to come by. when shaq had all-star eddie jones and kobe was on the bench? no rings.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

get the fvck outta here :roll: :roll: :roll:

shaq had penny, wade, and kobe all in their primes and you want to say that kobe played with better teams?

and he didn't go against any "worse" competition that's a horrific myth.

nobody would draft a big that needed all-time great sg's to carry him, because those are hard to come by. when shaq had all-stars eddie jones and nick van-exel while kobe was on the bench? no rings.

For title contenders? Shaq played with less talent (1995 / 2000) and played better competition than Kobe did for his 'alpha rings'.

And :oldlol: at this idiot saying his guards carried him.

Eddie Jones averaged 15ppg on 41%FG vs the Jazz
Kobe averaged 10ppg on 37%FG vs the Jazz
NVE averaged 9ppg on 28%FG vs the Jazz

Carried? LMAO!

[DaOldLion]

Kobe needed better teams and played worse competition than Shaq to win his titles as 'lead alpha'.

Nobody that isn't a moron would draft Bean over Shaq.

regardless if any of that is true or not (because its not) how can you overlook the fact that Shaq beefed with Penny AND Kobe two all nba superstars who he was winning with, making finals etc..

it isn't like he beefed with a really good player because their team wasn't achieving enough success like Pippen and Barkley did.. nope.. he was making finals and winning rings and still had beef with two of his best teammates ever which got so bad he ended up leaving town TWICE

[DaOldLion]

For title contenders? Shaq played with less talent (1995 / 2000) and played better competition than Kobe did for his 'alpha rings'.

And :oldlol: at this idiot saying his guards carried him.

Eddie Jones averaged 15ppg on 41%FG vs the Jazz
Kobe averaged 10ppg on 37%FG vs the Jazz
NVE averaged 9ppg on 28%FG vs the Jazz

Carried? LMAO!

since when was eddie jones and NVE all time great guards? that is what the poster said.. all time great guards.. and teenage Kobe wasn't a great guard either

??

[DaOldLion]

when building around a player

you want loyalty.. Shaq has none

you want somebody who works hard.. Shaq pushed back off season surgery to get in during the season instead

you want somebody who is reliable.. Shaq has two seasons of 80+ games..

you want somebody easy to build around.. How much better can you build around Shaq than those Magic teams.. and drafting a Penny isn't easy, getting a Kobe isn't easy, getting a Wade isn't easy

[PsychoBe]

For title contenders? Shaq played with less talent (1995 / 2000) and played better competition than Kobe did for his 'alpha rings'.

And :oldlol: at this idiot saying his guards carried him.

Eddie Jones averaged 15ppg on 41%FG vs the Jazz
Kobe averaged 10ppg on 37%FG vs the Jazz
NVE averaged 9ppg on 28%FG vs the Jazz

Carried? LMAO!

you just proved my point :roll: :roll: :roll:

shaq without all-time great guards = no rings.

kobe without shaq = 2

shaq without kobe = 1

shaq without a great guard = 0

why draft a player that needs so much help just to be successful?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

regardless if any of that is true or not (because its not) how can you overlook the fact that Shaq beefed with Penny AND Kobe two all nba superstars who he was winning with, making finals etc..

it isn't like he beefed with a really good player because their team wasn't achieving enough success like Pippen and Barkley did.. nope.. he was making finals and winning rings and still had beef with two of his best teammates ever which got so bad he ended up leaving town TWICE

I can overlook it when Kobe has needed stacked teams (both players and coach) his ENTIRE career...just to get a deep playoff run in.

Hell, overlooking Shaq's discretions are easy when Kobe is visibly a worse player.


since when was eddie jones and NVE all time great guards? that is what the poster said.. all time great guards.. and teenage Kobe wasn't a great guard either

??

The poster I quoted claimed Shaq had those "all-stars" yet "still lost".

Look at those all-stars' production in the most important series of that playoff run.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

you just proved my point :roll: :roll: :roll:

shaq without all-time great guards = no rings.

kobe without shaq = 2

shaq without kobe = 1

shaq without a great guard = 0

why draft a player that needs so much help just to be successful?

And yet Shaq is still the better player :confusedshrug:

Tell us what Kobe has done without a HOF bigman and arguably the GOAT coach.

[PsychoBe]

And yet Shaq is still the better player :confusedshrug:

Tell us what Kobe has done without a HOF bigman and arguably the GOAT coach.

he went to 3 straight finals without a hof bigman :facepalm

then you're probably gonna say "gasol is a hof" which is a stretch but okay let me ask you this: would gasol have went to the hof if he never got traded to the lakers and played with kobe?

if the answer is "no" (which it is) then you have to concede that kobe made him who he is.

[DaOldLion]

I can overlook it when Kobe has needed stacked teams (both players and coach) just to get a deep playoff run.

Hell, overlooking Shaq's discretion are easy when Kobe is visibly a worse player.

:roll: yeaaahhh.. remind me of the time Shaq took a bunch of scrubs deep into the playoffs?

lets look at Shaq's playoff appearances where he played more than 10 playoff games.. this was in 95, 96, 98, 00,01,02,03, 04, 05, 06

95 = first team all nba guard beside him

96 = first team all nba guard beside him

98 = 3 all star guards

00 = first team all nba defensive guard (also 2nd team all nba)

01 = 2nd team all nba defensive guard (also 2nd team all nba)

02 = first team all nba guard (also 2nd team all nba)

03 = top 5 MVP candidate guard who is also first team all nba and defense

04 = first team all nba guard, first team all nba d

05 = 2nd team all nba guard

06 = 2nd team all nba guard who won FMVP


so yeah which one of those teams wasn't stacked..??

and just to fully destroy that point

Kobe in 08 made the finals with get this.. no all stars and no all nba team players beside him.. so it looks Kobe demonstrated that he could do more with less.. he also didn't need an all nba first team defender/ first team all nba player beside him to make 3 straight finals like Shaq did with Kobe.. so there goes that :oldlol:

[JT123]

Kobe stans never fail to amaze with their infinite levels of stupidity.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

he went to 3 straight finals without a hof bigman :facepalm

then you're probably gonna say "gasol is a hof" which is a stretch but okay let me ask you this: would gasol have went to the hof if he never got traded to the lakers and played with kobe?

if the answer is "no" (which it is) then you have to concede that kobe made him who he is.

First of all, that's not a "stretch" whatsoever.

Gasol will be a HOFer just like Phil is arguably the greatest coach of all-time, something you conveniently ignored.

Take the L, apostle. :pimp:


:roll: yeaaahhh.. remind me of the time Shaq took a bunch of scrubs deep into the playoffs?

lets look at Shaq's playoff appearances where he played more than 10 playoff games.. this was in 95, 96, 98, 00,01,02,03, 04, 05, 06

Kobe in 08 made the finals with get this.. no all stars and no all nba team players beside him.. so it looks Kobe demonstrated that he could do more with less.. he also didn't need an all nba first team defender/ first team all nba player beside him to make 3 straight finals like Shaq did with Kobe.. so there goes that :oldlol:

I won't quote the rest of your post, because I never claimed Shaq carried scrubs to the playoffs. You literally typed all of that bullshyt for something I never suggested. :oldlol:

Far as the bold goes, you're right, instead Bean had a HOF Gasol and one of the greatest coaches ever in professional basketball.

On the other hand, Shaq took an Orlando team to the finals without any HOFers. Players or coach.

Hold the L your boy was given above. :cheers:

[feyki]

:roll: yeaaahhh.. remind me of the time Shaq took a bunch of scrubs deep into the playoffs?

lets look at Shaq's playoff appearances where he played more than 10 playoff games.. this was in 95, 96, 98, 00,01,02,03, 04, 05, 06

95 = first team all nba guard beside him

96 = first team all nba guard beside him

98 = 3 all star guards

00 = first team all nba defensive guard (also 2nd team all nba)

01 = 2nd team all nba defensive guard (also 2nd team all nba)

02 = first team all nba guard (also 2nd team all nba)

03 = top 5 MVP candidate guard who is also first team all nba and defense

04 = first team all nba guard, first team all nba d

05 = 2nd team all nba guard

06 = 2nd team all nba guard who won FMVP


so yeah which one of those teams wasn't stacked..??

and just to fully destroy that point

Kobe in 08 made the finals with get this.. no all stars and no all nba team players beside him.. so it looks Kobe demonstrated that he could do more with less.. he also didn't need an all nba first team defender/ first team all nba player beside him to make 3 straight finals like Shaq did with Kobe.. so there goes that :oldlol:


:rockon: :rockon:

Shaq easily worst player on the group .

[DaOldLion]

I won't quote the rest of your post, because I never claimed Shaq carried scrubs to the playoffs. You literally typed all of that bullshyt for something I never suggested. :oldlol:

Far as the bold goes, you're right, instead Bean had a HOF Gasol and one of the greatest coaches ever in professional basketball.

On the other hand, Shaq took an Orlando team to the finals without any HOFers. Players or coach.

Hold the L your boy was given above. :cheers:


I never claimed Shaq carried scrubs to the playoffs.

no but you did say this


I can overlook it when Kobe has needed stacked teams (both players and coach) his ENTIRE career...just to get a deep playoff run in.

Hell, overlooking Shaq's discretions are easy when Kobe is visibly a worse player.



you're clearly implying that Kobe had stacked teams for his playoff runs while Shaq did not, as you count that against Kobe but don't hold it against Shaq


Far as the bold goes, you're right, instead Bean had a HOF Gasol and one of the greatest coaches ever in professional basketball.

Yeah I am right, Shaq played with 3 of the greatest guards of his generation and 2 of the 3 best guards of all time,

while Kobe had 3rd team all nba Pau Gasol Shaq had three different sets of first team all nba guards beside him dumbass :oldlol:


and one of the greatest coaches ever in professional basketball.

and remind me who Shaq has as coach for all of his rings again? Are you really using the coach argument against Kobe when Shaq had the exact same coach + another ATG coach in Riley :oldlol:


This argument is honestly hilarious how bad it is

"Kobe had Pau".. yeah well Shaq had Penny, Kobe, Wade and then played with Nash, Lebron and the big 3 celtics to finish off his career

"Kobe had PJ".. and so did Shaq, plus another ATG coach in Riley

"Kobe never had deep playoff runs without a stacked team"... Shaq played with 2 of the greatest SG's ever and still won less than Kobe, and made less finals than Kobe.. Kobe has 3 straight finals with Pau Gasol as his 2nd best player..

Made the 08 finals with no other all stars or all nba players.. Shaq never did that..

Kobe's 2nd best player = 3rd team all nba forward Gasol

Shaq's 2nd best players = 1st team Kobe. 1st team Penny, FMVP Wade


Here's the L, I'm sure you know what to do with it....

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

no but you did say this



you're clearly implying that Kobe had stacked teams for his playoff runs while Shaq did not, as you count that against Kobe but don't hold it against Shaq.

Please read carefully. Word for word, I said that Kobe needed a HOF big-man and GOAT caliber coach JUST to get deep into the playoffs.

Shaq needed...well, he didn't need either a HOF coach or HOF player.

Get it?


Yeah I am right, Shaq played with 3 of the greatest guards of his generation and 2 of the 3 best guards of all time,

while Kobe had 3rd team all nba Pau Gasol Shaq had three different sets of first team all nba guards beside him dumbass :oldlol:


and remind me who Shaq has as coach for all of his rings again? Are you really using the coach argument against Kobe when Shaq had the exact same coach + another ATG coach in Riley :oldlol:

Remind us who coached a third year Shaq in the finals?

I'll give you a hint: It wasn't PJax or Riley, or anywhere near a GOAT caliber coach. :oldlol:

I would tell you Shaq didn't need other HOF players like Kobe did in 2008, but that would be me telling you the SAME thing I did when shredding an earlier post of yours. :oldlol:


Shaq played with 2 of the greatest SG's ever and still won less than Kobe, and made less finals than Kobe.. Kobe has 3 straight finals with Pau Gasol as his 2nd best player.

Here I am repeating myself...

Shaq took his team to the finals without a HOF player or coach.
Can you say the same thing about Kobe?

What's that? Yeah, didn't think so.

Keep the L, you deserve it.

[LAZERUSS]

Not better. Equal.
They were both dominant interior defenders who weren't great at perimeter defense.
Wilt played defense alot like Shaq did.



No.
Kareem or Shaq's offensive numbers across the board in the playoffs are far, far better then Wilt's.
Even Hakeem has better numbers on that end (in the playoffs).

And if you make minor adjustments for pace or minutes Wilt's Prime offensive playoff numbers are closer to David Robinson's then they are to Kareem or Shaqs.

Playoff stats (p42 min) (g = games)

Wilt (1960-66) (52g) : 29-ppg on 52%TS
D-Rob (90-96) (53g) : 26-ppg on 56%TS



Yes.
Though different era so we can't say for sure what his rebounding numbers would be like today.
I do currently think he was a better rebounder then any of the other GOAT C's.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Comparing D-Rob's run with Chamberlain's.

Give me the list of CENTERS that Robinson faced in his post-season run from '90 thru '96.

I'll help you. Aside from Hakeem, not ONE even decent center. As for his one matchup with a true HOF center...well, we all know how that one went, don't we?

Meanwhile, in Wilt's 52 playoff games from '60 thru '66, he faced RUSSELL in...here it comes... 30 of them!

As for TS%:

Chamberlain played in post-seasons that shot a TS% of around .460 to .480.
For example, in his '64 playoff run, Wilt had a TS% of .543 in a post-season that had a TS% of about .470.

Furthermore, Wilt's EFFECTIVE TS% was about a full 2% higher than his actual TS%. In Chamberlain's era, the FT shooting rules were different, with bonus shots, so even though he was often credited with going 2-3 in a FT shooting situation, he was effectively shooting 2-2.

Of course, Wilt SLAUGHTERED his peers on the glass his entire post-season career. In his 29 playoff series he was never outrebounded by an opposing center even ONCE. And he was only outrebounded at all in one (and by a 21.0 to 20.0 rpg margin.) BUT, when he faced that same player, Jerry Lucas, as a starting CENTER, he murdered him by a 23.2 to 9.8 rpg margin.

And while Hakeem leveled D-Rob in their '95 playoff series, how about Wilt in his '65 EDF's against RUSSELL? In their seven game series, Chamberlain outscored Russell, 30.1 ppg to 15.6 ppg; outrebounded Russell, 31.4 rpg to 25.2 rpg; outshot Russell from the field, .555 to .447; and even outshot Russell from the LINE, .583 to .472. Oh, and he outblocked Russell in their known blocks, 35-22. Overall, Wilt's eFG% was a staggering +13% higher than the post-season league average in that series (.555 to .429.) And his TS% of .565 was nearly 10% higher than the post-season league average (.470)!

How about Wilt's '64 WDF's against Zelmo Beaty, who would go on to be a multiple AS?

38.6 ppg, 23.0 rpg, and a .559 FG% (in a post-season that shot an eFG% of .420.)

As you can see, when a prime Wilt faced a merely GOOD center, he ANNIHILATED them. Hell, he was CRUSHING HOFers like Russell, Thurmond, Reed, and Bellamy in those years (and even up to his '67 regular and post-seasons.)

Finally... got to love that ppg/42. Wilt gets punished for being capable of paying 48 mpg, while Robinson gets rewarded for barely averaging 40 mpg in his prime stretch.

Please, take your "comparison" and throw it in the trash where it belongs.

[La Frescobaldi]

Wilt may have been better on offense in the regular season, but Shaq generally played his best when it mattered. Both wouldn't be my top choices due to Shaq being lazy and Wilt being extremely selfish. But I am taking Shaq over Wilt if I am starting a team, he just a more reliable foundation piece on a championship team.


Just so you know; O'Neal got swept six times in the playoffs. Worst playoff record of any ATG and it really isn't very close. Even Jordan pre-Pippen/Jackson/Winter didn't do as bad as O'Neal.

[LAZERUSS]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1986-nba-western-conference-finals-rockets-vs-lakers.html

This one , 23 years old Hakeem vs 38 years old Kareem at most important area .

Nate Thurmond probably best man to man defender in centers at nba history .

Wilt better rim ptotector than Hakeem , Wilt also better rim protector than Bill . But Hakeem more versatile defender than Wilt . And Hakeem has higher margin than Wilt at defensive side for me .

Kareem select Thurmond for his most difficult opponent . 1973 playoffs , nightmare for Kareem. And his worst playoffs performances .

Shooting percentage more about era than opponent . 70's tougher defensive era than 80's , so far .

And like i said , Hakeem is best defender of all time , not named Bill Russell .

First of all, your '86 WCF's was incorrect. Kareem was defended by, and defended, SAMPSON, not Hakeem. Why? Because KAJ absolutely DESTROYED Hakeem in their H2H's.

SAMPSON did a good job of defending the 39 year old Kareem in that series, albeit, it was basically based on one poor game by Kareem.

You want to see what a 39 year old actually did against HAKEEM?

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2013/09/13/20130803-kareem-vs-rockets.nba/

Here was the post-game write up in the LA Times:

https://news.google.ca/newspapers?id=GQ4QAAAAIBAJ&sjid=nYsDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2074,1339920&hl=en

Fitch was ripped for allowing Hakeem to be bludgeoned.

Incidently, in their first 10 H2H's, a 38-39 year Kareem AVERAGED 32 ppg on a staggering .630 FG% against Hakeem. Included were games of 40, 43, and that 46 point explosion. BTW, that 46 point game came on 70% shooting and in only 37 minutes. He probably could have shelled Hakeem with a 60 point game had he played a full 48.

Then, think what a PEAK Kareem, age 23+ would have carpet bombed Hakeem with.

BTW, after Sampson was injured in '87, a 40 year old Kareem outscored a 25 year old Hakeem in their four H2H's, and outshot him by...get this... a .567 to .403 margin.


As for Wilt's defense...

a prime Wilt was a MONSTER all over the court defensively. If you read game recaps, and watch the limited footage of their 60's playoff H2H's, while Boston was doubling and tripling Wilt on the defensive end, Chamberlain was blocking jump shots by Sam Jones, and altering shots from Tommy Heinsohn and company at his defensive end.

Maybe you were not aware of this, but in his first H2H game with Walt Bellamy, who had an outstanding jump shot with 15+ foot range, and was averaging 30 ppg before that meeting...Wilt BLOCKED Bellamy's first NINE shots. BTW, he outscored Bells in that game, 52-14.

But, how about a 35 year old Wilt in the '72 Finals. His opposing center was Jerry Lucas, who may have had the best range of any player in his era. In the first half of the first game of that series, Lucas went 9-11 from the field...with most all of those shots coming from close to 25 feet away. Wilt went out on him, and held him to a .457 FG% the rest of the series (including a clinching game five of 5-14)...all while hauling in 23.2 rpg, and blocking 7.4 shots per game in that series.

How good was Wilt's man-to-man defense in the post-season?

In the '68 playoffs, he held Bellamy to a .421 FG%...the same Bellamy who had shot .541 during the regular season.

How about a past-his-peak Chamberlain, going up against a PEAK Kareem in '71 and '72?

In '71, Kareem shot .577 against the NBA. Against Wilt in the '71 WCF's... .481.

In '72, Kareem shot .574 against the NBA. Against Chamberlain in the '72 WCF's... .457. Oh, in the last four pivotal games of that series... a .414. BTW, Wilt was knocking the "unblockable" sky hook all over the gym in that series.

For comparision sake...a PEAK Kareem faced a past-his-prime Chamberlain in 27 of their 28 career H2H's (and was wiped out by a prime Wilt in their one H2H before Wilt blew out his knee)...and he shot .464 against Chamberlain in those 28 H2H's (and only .434 in their last ten overall.)

A 38-41 year old Kareem faced a 23-26 year old Hakeem in 23 career H2H's, an shot ... .607 from the floor against him.

[LAZERUSS]

Just so you know; O'Neal got swept six times in the playoffs. Worst playoff record of any ATG and it really isn't very close. Even Jordan pre-Pippen/Jackson/Winter didn't do as bad as O'Neal.

Meanwhile, Chamberlain's TEAMS, lost FOUR game SEVEN's to Russell's CELTICS, by a combined NINE points (margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points.)

Wilt was a few points away from FOUR more rings. Throw in his '70 Finals, when his team lost another game seven, and he was close to FIVE rings.

[Bosnian Sajo]

Easily Hakeem.

Hell, I wouldn't think twice in taking Moses over him.

Dumbest comment in this thread, Hakeem is arguably the easiest to build around after KAJ.





I would say probably Russell with Lebron right after him. Kobe isn't the BEST team player, but when he is in a good situation with players he likes, the results are pretty (09, 10).

[feyki]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Comparing D-Rob's run with Chamberlain's.

Give me the list of CENTERS that Robinson faced in his post-season run from '90 thru '96.

I'll help you. Aside from Hakeem, not ONE even decent center. As for his one matchup with a true HOF center...well, we all know how that one went, don't we?

Meanwhile, in Wilt's 52 playoff games from '60 thru '66, he faced RUSSELL in...here it comes... 30 of them!

As for TS%:

Chamberlain played in post-seasons that shot a TS% of around .460 to .480.
For example, in his '64 playoff run, Wilt had a TS% of .543 in a post-season that had a TS% of about .470.

Furthermore, Wilt's EFFECTIVE TS% was about a full 2% higher than his actual TS%. In Chamberlain's era, the FT shooting rules were different, with bonus shots, so even though he was often credited with going 2-3 in a FT shooting situation, he was effectively shooting 2-2.

Of course, Wilt SLAUGHTERED his peers on the glass his entire post-season career. In his 29 playoff series he was never outrebounded by an opposing center even ONCE. And he was only outrebounded at all in one (and by a 21.0 to 20.0 rpg margin.) BUT, when he faced that same player, Jerry Lucas, as a starting CENTER, he murdered him by a 23.2 to 9.8 rpg margin.

And while Hakeem leveled D-Rob in their '95 playoff series, how about Wilt in his '65 EDF's against RUSSELL? In their seven game series, Chamberlain outscored Russell, 30.1 ppg to 15.6 ppg; outrebounded Russell, 31.4 rpg to 25.2 rpg; outshot Russell from the field, .555 to .447; and even outshot Russell from the LINE, .583 to .472. Oh, and he outblocked Russell in their known blocks, 35-22. Overall, Wilt's eFG% was a staggering +13% higher than the post-season league average in that series (.555 to .429.) And his TS% of .565 was nearly 10% higher than the post-season league average (.470)!

How about Wilt's '64 WDF's against Zelmo Beaty, who would go on to be a multiple AS?

38.6 ppg, 23.0 rpg, and a .559 FG% (in a post-season that shot an eFG% of .420.)

As you can see, when a prime Wilt faced a merely GOOD center, he ANNIHILATED them. Hell, he was CRUSHING HOFers like Russell, Thurmond, Reed, and Bellamy in those years (and even up to his '67 regular and post-seasons.)

Finally... got to love that ppg/42. Wilt gets punished for being capable of paying 48 mpg, while Robinson gets rewarded for barely averaging 40 mpg in his prime stretch.

Please, take your "comparison" and throw it in the trash where it belongs.

Remember , How get Wilt success ? That's like Russell's ways .

More points isn't meaning better player .



First of all, your '86 WCF's was incorrect. Kareem was defended by, and defended, SAMPSON, not Hakeem. Why? Because KAJ absolutely DESTROYED Hakeem in their H2H's.

SAMPSON did a good job of defending the 39 year old Kareem in that series, albeit, it was basically based on one poor game by Kareem.

You want to see what a 39 year old actually did against HAKEEM?

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2013/09/13/20130803-kareem-vs-rockets.nba/

Here was the post-game write up in the LA Times:

https://news.google.ca/newspapers?id=GQ4QAAAAIBAJ&sjid=nYsDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2074,1339920&hl=en

Fitch was ripped for allowing Hakeem to be bludgeoned.

Incidently, in their first 10 H2H's, a 38-39 year Kareem AVERAGED 32 ppg on a staggering .630 FG% against Hakeem. Included were games of 40, 43, and that 46 point explosion. BTW, that 46 point game came on 70% shooting and in only 37 minutes. He probably could have shelled Hakeem with a 60 point game had he played a full 48.

Then, think what a PEAK Kareem, age 23+ would have carpet bombed Hakeem with.

BTW, after Sampson was injured in '87, a 40 year old Kareem outscored a 25 year old Hakeem in their four H2H's, and outshot him by...get this... a .567 to .403 margin.


As for Wilt's defense...

a prime Wilt was a MONSTER all over the court defensively. If you read game recaps, and watch the limited footage of their 60's playoff H2H's, while Boston was doubling and tripling Wilt on the defensive end, Chamberlain was blocking jump shots by Sam Jones, and altering shots from Tommy Heinsohn and company at his defensive end.

Maybe you were not aware of this, but in his first H2H game with Walt Bellamy, who had an outstanding jump shot with 15+ foot range, and was averaging 30 ppg before that meeting...Wilt BLOCKED Bellamy's first NINE shots. BTW, he outscored Bells in that game, 52-14.

But, how about a 35 year old Wilt in the '72 Finals. His opposing center was Jerry Lucas, who may have had the best range of any player in his era. In the first half of the first game of that series, Lucas went 9-11 from the field...with most all of those shots coming from close to 25 feet away. Wilt went out on him, and held him to a .457 FG% the rest of the series (including a clinching game five of 5-14)...all while hauling in 23.2 rpg, and blocking 7.4 shots per game in that series.

How good was Wilt's man-to-man defense in the post-season?

In the '68 playoffs, he held Bellamy to a .421 FG%...the same Bellamy who had shot .541 during the regular season.

How about a past-his-peak Chamberlain, going up against a PEAK Kareem in '71 and '72?

In '71, Kareem shot .577 against the NBA. Against Wilt in the '71 WCF's... .481.

In '72, Kareem shot .574 against the NBA. Against Chamberlain in the '72 WCF's... .457. Oh, in the last four pivotal games of that series... a .414. BTW, Wilt was knocking the "unblockable" sky hook all over the gym in that series.

For comparision sake...a PEAK Kareem faced a past-his-prime Chamberlain in 27 of their 28 career H2H's (and was wiped out by a prime Wilt in their one H2H before Wilt blew out his knee)...and he shot .464 against Chamberlain in those 28 H2H's (and only .434 in their last ten overall.)

A 38-41 year old Kareem faced a 23-26 year old Hakeem in 23 career H2H's, an shot ... .607 from the floor against him.

I said that , Wilt better rim protector than Hakeem but Hakeem more versatile defender than Wilt . Wilt also better on man to man defence , like your said . This looks like Garnett vs Shaq comparison on defence . Garnett better defensive player above Shaq for me . Don't underestimate on ball and help defence .

[LAZERUSS]

Dumbest comment in this thread, Hakeem is arguably the easiest to build around after KAJ.





I would say probably Russell with Lebron right after him. Kobe isn't the BEST team player, but when he is in a good situation with players he likes, the results are pretty (09, 10).

Hakeem is MASSIVELY over-rated.

The man was knocked out in the FIRST ROUND... EIGHT times!

His '94 title run came in a season in which the best player in the league took the year off. And his 58-24 Rockets wins came against teams with less talent than what he had. Hell, he didn't face a legitimate center until the Finals. True, he outplayed a fading Ewing in the Finals, but keep in mind that Patrick's surrounding talent was no better than Hakeem's. And his Rocket's eked out a game seven win in a series in which they were outscored.

His '95 run was aided by exceptional teammates. Again, he badly outplayed D-Rob in four of their six H2H's, but at BEST, he played a young Shaq to a draw in the Finals. Oh, and his teammates badly outplayed Shaq's in that series.

Here is all you need to know about Hakeem...

He won ONE MVP, in a season in which MJ took the year off.

He came in second, ONCE.

He came in 4th, TWICE.

That's it. FOUR times in his 18 season career in which he was even considered a Top-4 player in the league.

He was voted in the Top-10, ten times in his 18 seasons...or roughly HALF the time he was even considered a Top-10 player in his own era.

The man never led a team to more than 58 wins, and rarely even 50 wins. He built up his playoff stats with first round blowout losses. Overall, nowhere near the level that the other Top-10 candidates played at.

[LAZERUSS]

Remember , How get Wilt success ? That's like Russell's ways .

More points isn't meaning better player .




I said that , Wilt better rim protector than Hakeem but Hakeem more versatile defender than Wilt . Wilt also better on man to man defence , like your said . This looks like Garnett vs Shaq comparison on defence . Garnett better defensive player above Shaq for me . Don't underestimate on ball and help defence .

John Wooden summed up the Wilt-Russell rivalry best. Had those two swapped rosters, and coaches, and it would have been Wilt holding all those rings.

As for total domination...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I9jddU8eNWrI8MMOPs_0l58WnjFNADvF4iIcu0Sfz7A/edit?pli=1#gid=0

There wasn't an area in which Russell was even CLOSE to Chamberlain. Wilt badly outscored, outrebounded, and outshot Russell. And a more balanced Chamberlain was light years better in passing, as well. Hell, Wilt cleaned Russell's clock in H2H shot-blocking, as well.


Wilt's defense was easily Top-2 all-time. But how about a Chamberlain at age 36, and in his LAST season...


Chamberlain, at age 36, and in his LAST season vs the best centers in the league:


Vs. Cowens in 4 H2H's:

Cowens: 31.3 ppg, 19.8 rpg, .454 FG%

Wilt: 14.3 ppg, 14.5 rpg, .588 FG%



vs. Reed in 3 regular season H2H's:

Reed: 12.0 ppg, 10.0 rpg, .471 FG%

Wilt: 6.3 ppg, 23.3 rpg, .529 FG%

vs. Reed in 5 Finals' H2H's:

Reed: 16.4 ppg, 9.2 rpg, .493 FG%

Wilt: 11.6 ppg, 18.6 rpg, .525 FG%


vs. Bellamy in 4 H2H's:

Bellamy: 17.0 ppg, 18.0 rpg ( 2 known games), .400 FG% (2 known game)

Wilt: 9.8 ppg, 20.5 rpg, .593 FG%


vs. Unseld in 4 H2H's:

Unseld: 12.8 ppg, 15.3 rpg, .481 FG%

Wilt: 12.8 ppg, 20.8 rpg, .769 FG%


vs. McAdoo in 4 H2H's:

McAdoo: 16.8 ppg, 8.8 rpg, .450 FG% (3 known games)

Wilt: 20.5 ppg, 21.3 rpg, .850 FG%


vs. Thurmond in 7 regular season H2H's:

Thurmond: 12.3 ppg, 21.6 rpg, .315 FG%

Wilt: 5.1 ppg, 16.6 rpg, .684 FG%

vs. Thurmond in 5 playoff H2H's:

Thurmond: 15.8 ppg, 17.2 rpg, .373 FG%

Wilt: 7.0 ppg, 23.6 rpg, .611 FG%


vs. Lanier in 6 H2H's:

Lanier: 21.2 ppg, 13.4 rpg (5 known games), .374 FG% (5 known games)

Wilt: 19.8 ppg, 16.3 rpg, .764 FG%



vs. Kareem in 6 H2H's:

Kareem: 29.5 ppg, 17.8 rpg, .450 FG%

Wilt: 11.0 ppg, 16.0 rpg, .737 FG%

[DaOldLion]

Please read carefully. Word for word, I said that Kobe needed a HOF big-man and GOAT caliber coach JUST to get deep into the playoffs.

Shaq needed...well, he didn't need either a HOF coach or HOF player.

Get it?





Remind us who coached a third year Shaq in the finals?

I'll give you a hint: It wasn't PJax or Riley, or anywhere near a GOAT caliber coach. :oldlol:

I would tell you Shaq didn't need other HOF players like Kobe did in 2008, but that would be me telling you the SAME thing I did when shredding an earlier post of yours. :oldlol:



Here I am repeating myself...

Shaq took his team to the finals without a HOF player or coach.
Can you say the same thing about Kobe?

What's that? Yeah, didn't think so.

Keep the L, you deserve it.



Please read carefully. Word for word, I said that Kobe needed a HOF big-man and GOAT caliber coach JUST to get deep into the playoffs.

Shaq needed...well, he didn't need either a HOF coach or HOF player.

Get it?

this is incredibly disingenuous and its pathetic that you're grasping onto this terrible argument you keep making..

how many long playoff runs did Shaq have without an all nba guard beside him? The only reason Penny Hardaway isn't a HOF is because of injuries, he was playing at a HOF level when Shaq was playing with him though..

in fact THE YEAR ORLANDO MADE THE FINALS PENNY WAS FIRST TEAM ALL NBA WHILE SHAQ WAS SECOND TEAM ALL NBA and the only other time he had long playoff runs was when he had 2 of the 3 GOAT shooting guards beside him

Hold that L :roll:



Shaq took his team to the finals without a HOF player or coach.
Can you say the same thing about Kobe?

again I'll repeat myself because you seem like you have a hard time understanding this simple fact.. Kobe and Wade are 2/3 GOAT shooting guards and the only time Shaq won anything was when he played with them..

and the most pathetic thing about your argument for "Shaq didn't have a HOF player" is that you are relying on the fact that Penny got injured years later cutting his career short, if he doesn't get injured he's easily HOF..

and here's the kicker.. you are grasping on to that for your entire argument.. yet when they made the finals in 95


Penny was first team all nba and Shaq wasn't :roll:



Remind us who coached a third year Shaq in the finals?

Remind us who was the only Orlando Magic player to make the all nba first team that year...?



Shaq has never taken a team full of 0 all stars and 0 all nba players to a finals like Kobe has, that's a fact.

Shaq didn't GET CLOSE to winning as much without Kobe as Kobe did without Shaq and that's a fact

Shaq only had long playoff runs while playing with 2 of the GOAT shooting guards or a FIRST TEAM all nba player.. that's a fact


Kobe never played with anything more than a 3rd team all nba big after Shaq, compared to the 2 different sets of all nba first team guards Shaq plabyed with without Kobe that's a fact

Shaq was 2nd team all nba when they made the finals in 95, Penny was first team all nba.. that's a fact


Kobe never played on a team where his "sidekick" finished higher on the all nba team than he did.. that's a fact


your argument just got torn to shreds again.. it's over..

[ArbitraryWater]

:rockon: :rockon:

Shaq easily worst player on the group .

:facepalm

Shaq absolutely shits all over Duncan, over most guys on here.

[La Frescobaldi]

Dumbest comment in this thread, Hakeem is arguably the easiest to build around after KAJ.


I would say probably Russell with Lebron right after him. Kobe isn't the BEST team player, but when he is in a good situation with players he likes, the results are pretty (09, 10).

It's not dumb at all actually. Moses was easily the greater player in the late '70s and early '80s. Malone was the best player in the league for about 5 or 6 years and it was not simply because of the 3 MVPs. He was scorching everybody bad.
Olajuwon never separated himself from the rest of the NBA the way Moses Malone did. Never.

[game3524]

Hakeem is MASSIVELY over-rated.

The man was knocked out in the FIRST ROUND... EIGHT times!

His '94 title run came in a season in which the best player in the league took the year off. And his 58-24 Rockets wins came against teams with less talent than what he had. Hell, he didn't face a legitimate center until the Finals. True, he outplayed a fading Ewing in the Finals, but keep in mind that Patrick's surrounding talent was no better than Hakeem's. And his Rocket's eked out a game seven win in a series in which they were outscored.

His '95 run was aided by exceptional teammates. Again, he badly outplayed D-Rob in four of their six H2H's, but at BEST, he played a young Shaq to a draw in the Finals. Oh, and his teammates badly outplayed Shaq's in that series.

Here is all you need to know about Hakeem...

He won ONE MVP, in a season in which MJ took the year off.

He came in second, ONCE.

He came in 4th, TWICE.

That's it. FOUR times in his 18 season career in which he was even considered a Top-4 player in the league.

He was voted in the Top-10, ten times in his 18 seasons...or roughly HALF the time he was even considered a Top-10 player in his own era.

The man never led a team to more than 58 wins, and rarely even 50 wins. He built up his playoff stats with first round blowout losses. Overall, nowhere near the level that the other Top-10 candidates played at.

This.

The way people talk about Hakeem around here, you would think he won 5-6 titles like Duncan, Magic, and MJ.

For the majority of his prime, he was seen in the same light as Chuck, Malone, Robinson etc. He was never in the top tier with the likes of Michael and Magic.

[feyki]

John Wooden summed up the Wilt-Russell rivalry best. Had those two swapped rosters, and coaches, and it would have been Wilt holding all those rings.

As for total domination...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I9jddU8eNWrI8MMOPs_0l58WnjFNADvF4iIcu0Sfz7A/edit?pli=1#gid=0

There wasn't an area in which Russell was even CLOSE to Chamberlain. Wilt badly outscored, outrebounded, and outshot Russell. And a more balanced Chamberlain was light years better in passing, as well. Hell, Wilt cleaned Russell's clock in H2H shot-blocking, as well.


Wilt's defense was easily Top-2 all-time. But how about a Chamberlain at age 36, and in his LAST season...

Remember , How get Wilt success? With 35 points or 15-25 points? Russell focus on defence , playmaking and been much more make team better than Wilt at between 60-65 . Wilt has blocks and rebound by small margin but Celtics nearly allowed 10 points less than Warriors . That's Russell effect on defence .


22-25-6 with goat defence > 35-27-2

[game3524]

this is incredibly disingenuous and its pathetic that you're grasping onto this terrible argument you keep making..

how many long playoff runs did Shaq have without an all nba guard beside him? The only reason Penny Hardaway isn't a HOF is because of injuries, he was playing at a HOF level when Shaq was playing with him though..

in fact THE YEAR ORLANDO MADE THE FINALS PENNY WAS FIRST TEAM ALL NBA WHILE SHAQ WAS SECOND TEAM ALL NBA and the only other time he had long playoff runs was when he had 2 of the 3 GOAT shooting guards beside him

Hold that L :roll:




again I'll repeat myself because you seem like you have a hard time understanding this simple fact.. Kobe and Wade are 2/3 GOAT shooting guards and the only time Shaq won anything was when he played with them..

and the most pathetic thing about your argument for "Shaq didn't have a HOF player" is that you are relying on the fact that Penny got injured years later cutting his career short, if he doesn't get injured he's easily HOF..

and here's the kicker.. you are grasping on to that for your entire argument.. yet when they made the finals in 95


Penny was first team all nba and Shaq wasn't :roll:




Remind us who was the only Orlando Magic player to make the all nba first team that year...?



Shaq has never taken a team full of 0 all stars and 0 all nba players to a finals like Kobe has, that's a fact.

Shaq didn't GET CLOSE to winning as much without Kobe as Kobe did without Shaq and that's a fact

Shaq only had long playoff runs while playing with 2 of the GOAT shooting guards or a FIRST TEAM all nba player.. that's a fact


Kobe never played with anything more than a 3rd team all nba big after Shaq, compared to the 2 different sets of all nba first team guards Shaq plabyed with without Kobe that's a fact

Shaq was 2nd team all nba when they made the finals in 95, Penny was first team all nba.. that's a fact


Kobe never played on a team where his "sidekick" finished higher on the all nba team than he did.. that's a fact


your argument just got torn to shreds again.. it's over..

The HOF argument is also stupid since Penny like goes to the HOF if he doesn't blowout his knee.

[SugarHill]

LAZ with another Hakeem tirade. You only hate him because deep down (probably not even that deep since it's so blatant) you know Hakeem was by far more skilled than Wilt

[feyki]

:facepalm

Shaq absolutely shits all over Duncan, over most guys on here.


Duncan vs Shaq playoff H2H from 1999-2003. Despite Shaq having more rings, he was severely outplayed by Timmy D during Shaq's absolute prime.

19 games

Duncan

27 PPG 56 TS%
13 Rebounds
4.3 Assists
2.5 Blocks


Shaq

24 PPG 53.6 TS%
13 Rebounds
2.6 Assists
2.3 Blocks


How can we say Shaq is definitely > Tim Duncan with the above being the case? If anything Tim Duncan > Shaq or at least they're equal.

That's like Russell vs Wilt . I f you pick scoring or be show player above total impacts , yes you could pick Shaq and Wilt .

Wilt has different career than Shaq , cause he learned mentality of the game from Bill Russell .

[ArbitraryWater]

That's like Russell vs Wilt . I f you pick scoring or be show player above total impacts , yes you could pick Shaq and Wilt .

Wilt has different career than Shaq , cause he learned mentality of the game from Bill Russell .

No, thats not like Russell and Wilt, but Shaq does have one thing in common with Wilt, he too shits on Duncan as a player.

Shaq has one of the more perfect playoff resumes there are, besides 2003 Duncan, any Shaq version from 1995-1998 and 2000-2002 beats him handily.

1999 is the worst season/series of Shaq's prime, never got into shape (lockout).

In '01, Shaq's Lakers beat the Spurs by a margin of 22 ppg. Where Duncan was shooting late 3's when the game was over to natch 40, or have back to back no shows in Los Angeles, Shaq averaged 27/13, outscoring Duncan and outrebounding both the Twin Towers (he had to deal with BOTH).

In 2002, not sure if you are aware, Shaq played with a finger, wrist and ankle injury... any time Shaq WAS on Duncan, he limited him, Duncan shot in the 30's in the 4th quarter for the series, he was equally ineffective in 2004 (later).

In 2003 he was pretty much the only Laker doing work with 25/14/4/3 on 56% shooting, he'd had outscored Duncan once more with equal FGA (Kobe chucking).

In 2004 Shaq shot 64% on Duncan and grabbed 15 rpg (later destroyed DET).

Defense is Duncan's winning card, but the offensive end isn't even close. Shaq is the most dominant ever, and he STILL led the 2000 Lakers to #1 defensively (2nd in DPOTY), and dominated the 2001 Playoffs defensively.

Ultimately, Shaq was dominant for a good 13 seasons, and there's nothing Duncan can do about being better than him, ever... he has a better shot with Hakeem, although even there he was inferior at their peaks and 2-3 year prime seasons.

Even in 2003 GM's still had Shaq as BITW.

[feyki]

No, thats not like Russell and Wilt, but Shaq does have one thing in common with Wilt, he too shits on Duncan as a player.

Shaq has one of the more perfect playoff resumes there are, besides 2003 Duncan, any Shaq version from 1995-1998 and 2000-2002 beats him handily.

1999 is the worst season/series of Shaq's prime, never got into shape (lockout).

In '01, Shaq's Lakers beat the Spurs by a margin of 22 ppg. Where Duncan was shooting late 3's when the game was over to natch 40, or have back to back no shows in Los Angeles, Shaq averaged 27/13, outscoring Duncan and outrebounding both the Twin Towers (he had to deal with BOTH).

In 2002, not sure if you are aware, Shaq played with a finger, wrist and ankle injury... any time Shaq WAS on Duncan, he limited him, Duncan shot in the 30's in the 4th quarter for the series, he was equally ineffective in 2004 (later).

In 2003 he was pretty much the only Laker doing work with 25/14/4/3 on 56% shooting, he'd had outscored Duncan once more with equal FGA (Kobe chucking).

In 2004 Shaq shot 64% on Duncan and grabbed 15 rpg (later destroyed DET).

Defense is Duncan's winning card, but the offensive end isn't even close. Shaq is the most dominant ever, and he STILL led the 2000 Lakers to #1 defensively (2nd in DPOTY), and dominated the 2001 Playoffs defensively.

Ultimately, Shaq was dominant for a good 13 seasons, and there's nothing Duncan can do about being better than him, ever... he has a better shot with Hakeem, although even there he was inferior at their peaks and 2-3 year prime seasons.

Even in 2003 GM's still had Shaq as BITW.

Duncan with Kobe = 0 Ring Shaq . And Duncan individually better than Shaq at h2h playoffs .

I don't need your subjective arguements . Get truth and give objective arguements to people .

[ArbitraryWater]

Duncan with Kobe = 0 Ring Shaq . And Duncan individually better than Shaq at h2h playoffs .

I don't need your subjective arguements . Get truth and give objective arguements to people .

Andddd lame response is lame, if you want to troll, don't waste my time replying to some good detailed posts with shitty one liners, especially ones shitty grammar.

Grab a dictionary, have at it.

[JT123]

Kobe, and by a WIDE margin. Pretty much every poster in here has said the same thing other than his biggest stans :lol

[Megabox!]

Kobe isn't the BEST team player, but when he is in a good situation with players he likes, the results are pretty (09, 10).
This can literally be applied to the very person you said you wouldn't pick, Lebron

[Megabox!]

Tough question, all of them are damn good. But I'd have to go with Russell on this one.

[La Frescobaldi]

That's like Russell vs Wilt . I f you pick scoring or be show player above total impacts , yes you could pick Shaq and Wilt .

Wilt has different career than Shaq , cause he learned mentality of the game from Bill Russell .

This couldn't be more wrong if you worked at being wrong.

[jstern]

this is incredibly disingenuous and its pathetic that you're grasping onto this terrible argument you keep making..

how many long playoff runs did Shaq have without an all nba guard beside him? The only reason Penny Hardaway isn't a HOF is because of injuries, he was playing at a HOF level when Shaq was playing with him though..

in fact THE YEAR ORLANDO MADE THE FINALS PENNY WAS FIRST TEAM ALL NBA WHILE SHAQ WAS SECOND TEAM ALL NBA and the only other time he had long playoff runs was when he had 2 of the 3 GOAT shooting guards beside him

Hold that L :roll:




again I'll repeat myself because you seem like you have a hard time understanding this simple fact.. Kobe and Wade are 2/3 GOAT shooting guards and the only time Shaq won anything was when he played with them..

and the most pathetic thing about your argument for "Shaq didn't have a HOF player" is that you are relying on the fact that Penny got injured years later cutting his career short, if he doesn't get injured he's easily HOF..

and here's the kicker.. you are grasping on to that for your entire argument.. yet when they made the finals in 95


Penny was first team all nba and Shaq wasn't :roll:




Remind us who was the only Orlando Magic player to make the all nba first team that year...?



Shaq has never taken a team full of 0 all stars and 0 all nba players to a finals like Kobe has, that's a fact.

Shaq didn't GET CLOSE to winning as much without Kobe as Kobe did without Shaq and that's a fact

Shaq only had long playoff runs while playing with 2 of the GOAT shooting guards or a FIRST TEAM all nba player.. that's a fact


Kobe never played with anything more than a 3rd team all nba big after Shaq, compared to the 2 different sets of all nba first team guards Shaq plabyed with without Kobe that's a fact

Shaq was 2nd team all nba when they made the finals in 95, Penny was first team all nba.. that's a fact


Kobe never played on a team where his "sidekick" finished higher on the all nba team than he did.. that's a fact


your argument just got torn to shreds again.. it's over..

Did not read your post, was just scrolling down and so the loud bold letters. And it sounded like one of those black and white, simple fanboy arguments that only takes one or two factors into account.

The point is, Shaq and Penny do not play the same position. And while Penny was in the NBA first Team when Jordan was retired, he wasn't the best player on his team. Shaq was.