Bill Russell all known blocked shot data:

[CavaliersFTW]

135 games where blocked shot data exists, 8.1 blocks per game over said 135 games

(Click for High-Res)
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fRFgkADAK80/VkG0j3zRocI/AAAAAAAAHTA/swVybP9vvpE/s1280-Ic42/Russell%252520blocked%252520shots%252520135g.jpg (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fRFgkADAK80/VkG0j3zRocI/AAAAAAAAHTA/swVybP9vvpE/s0-Ic42/Russell%252520blocked%252520shots%252520135g.jpg)

[GIF REACTION]

What is that roughly pace adjusted for 2014-2015 NBA

[Gileraracer]

15 Steals, 24 Blocks.


Damn that era was weak :lol

[feyki]

I guess Bill's career block averages around between 3.5-4.5 . That's(records) probably his high's .

[Harison]

GOAT defender :bowdown:

[sdot_thadon]

Crazy. Hey cavs do you think they'd have as many blocks in this era? I think they had an advantage of sorts over modern bigmen in that regard. Offense was restricted in the way of calls and all.

*** those notes out to the side are from commentary or news stories?

[Psileas]

And these aren't even Matt's estimations, these are sourced figures. :bowdown:

Same thing can be done with Wilt's blocks.

[CavaliersFTW]

And these aren't even Matt's estimations, these are sourced figures. :bowdown:

Same thing can be done with Wilt's blocks.
Yes, 112 games where blocked shot data exists, 8.8 blocks per game over said 112 games

(Click for High-Res)
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-tTIVEWsAP14/VkFK-IE7GHI/AAAAAAAAHSo/n_u04_ScpoQ/s1280-Ic42/Wilt%252520blocked%252520shots.jpg (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-tTIVEWsAP14/VkFK-IE7GHI/AAAAAAAAHSo/n_u04_ScpoQ/s0-Ic42/Wilt%252520blocked%252520shots.jpg)

[STATUTORY]

what would it be if we adjusted talent for 2014-2015 NBA?

[sd3035]

what would it be if we adjusted talent for 2014-2015 NBA?

zero because he wouldn't make it to the NBA

[ShaqTwizzle]

do you think they'd have as many blocks in this era?

:biggums:

Don't be silly.
The league was far less athletic back then.
Long jumpers were far less common and shooters on average had slower releases with many guys still employed set shots.
Offensive schemes were also less advanced and the pace was much, much, much higher meaning many more shots were being taken.

Russell would rarely be having 8+ block games in the modern era.
I would guess that his Peak block numbers would be Hakeemish so he'd max out around 4-5 bpg.

Probably less now (3-4) since the league is more perimiter oriented then it was in the late 80's / early 90's and less physical.

Looking back in time no one has averaged 4+ block per game since 1994 when Mutombo did it and it isn't like we haven't had plenty of super athletic and talented shot-blockers around from 95-now.

I still consider Russell a GOAT defender & leader so I do think he'd be one of the top players today in overall impact.
He'd be great in any era.

[CavaliersFTW]

Here is some official blocked shot data from other players of the Russell / Wilt era:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: (3.5 - 4.1bpg from '74 to '80)
Nate Thurmond: (2.9 bpg in '74)
Elvin Hayes: (3.0 bpg in '74)
Elmore Smith: (4.9 bpg in '74)
LeRoy Ellis: (1.1 bpg in '74)
Willis Reed: (1.1 bpg in '74 - on less than 30 minutes)
Dave Cowens: (1.3 bpg in '74)
Bob Lanier: (3.0 bpg in '74)
Otto Moore: (1.7 bpg in '76 - on less than 30 minutes)
Wes Unseld: (0.9 bpg in '74)
Artis Gilmore in the ABA: (5.0 bpg in '72, 3.1 and 3.4 '73-'74)
Zelmo Beaty in the ABA: (1.0 bpg in '72)

Even a few of the more prolific ones such as Jabbar, Elmore Smith and Artis Gilmore (all in the 4-5 range at some point) weren't close to Wilt or Russell

[Gileraracer]

I can only imagine how funny it was for Bill and Wilt to block all those midgets in the sixties :lol

[STATUTORY]

Here is some official blocked shot data from other players of the Russell / Wilt era:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: (3.5 - 4.1bpg from '74 to '80)
Nate Thurmond: (2.9 bpg in '74)
Elvin Hayes: (3.0 bpg in '74)
Elmore Smith: (4.9 bpg in '74)
LeRoy Ellis: (1.1 bpg in '74)
Willis Reed: (1.1 bpg in '74 - on less than 30 minutes)
Dave Cowens: (1.3 bpg in '74)
Bob Lanier: (3.0 bpg in '74)
Otto Moore: (1.7 bpg in '76 - on less than 30 minutes)
Wes Unseld: (0.9 bpg in '74)
Artis Gilmore in the ABA: (5.0 bpg in '72, 3.1 and 3.4 '73-'74)
Zelmo Beaty in the ABA: (1.0 bpg in '72)

Even a few of the more prolific ones such as Jabbar, Elmore Smith and Artis Gilmore (all in the 4-5 range at some point) weren't close to Wilt or Russell

those are data from the 70s... in the OP you showed numbers from the 50s...

how are these the same era?

[ShaqTwizzle]

those are data from the 70s... in the OP you showed numbers from the 50s...

how are these the same era?

They aren't and that makes the comparison unfair.

[CavaliersFTW]

those are data from the 70s... in the OP you showed numbers from the 50s...

how are these the same era?
All of those players overlap with Wilt, some with Russell - and from the closest periods of time to their era.

It's what some might consider relevant additional data. It's okay this isn't your kind of thread so I don't expect you to understand.

[Psileas]

Here is some official blocked shot data from other players of the Russell / Wilt era:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: (3.5 - 4.1bpg from '74 to '80)
Nate Thurmond: (2.9 bpg in '74)
Elvin Hayes: (3.0 bpg in '74)
Elmore Smith: (4.9 bpg in '74)
LeRoy Ellis: (1.1 bpg in '74)
Willis Reed: (1.1 bpg in '74 - on less than 30 minutes)
Dave Cowens: (1.3 bpg in '74)
Bob Lanier: (3.0 bpg in '74)
Otto Moore: (1.7 bpg in '76 - on less than 30 minutes)
Wes Unseld: (0.9 bpg in '74)
Artis Gilmore in the ABA: (5.0 bpg in '72, 3.1 and 3.4 '73-'74)
Zelmo Beaty in the ABA: (1.0 bpg in '72)

Even a few of the more prolific ones such as Jabbar, Elmore Smith and Artis Gilmore (all in the 4-5 range at some point) weren't close to Wilt or Russell

Also: Wilt in 1973, as it has been told multiple times, has been credited with 5.5 bpg in his last season (league leader) and, as far as I remember, according to the same source, Elmore Smith was at a total of 300 blocks in the same season. So, this can shut up the "midget era"/"50's stats" propagandists.

[STATUTORY]

All of those players overlap with Wilt, some with Russell - and from the closest periods of time to their era.

It's what some might consider relevant additional data. It's okay this isn't your kind of thread so I don't expect you to understand.

The idea that datapoints 2 decades apart, before and after integration, are comparable is laughable. The only people who would consider this relevant are agenda driven posters like yourself.

Stick to making hype videos on youtube, statistical analysis isn't really your forte.

[ShaqTwizzle]

Wilt in 1973 has been credited with 5.5 bpg

Credited by who?
Who tracked his blocks that season?
We have his blocks data for all or most of his games?
Who tracked the data? Does the league confirm their legitimacy?

Many questions.

[ShaqTwizzle]

The idea that datapoints 2 decades apart, before and after integration, are comparable is laughable.

The league was like 10% black in the early 60's I believe.
By the late 70's it was 60-70%.

Huge difference.
There were many other significant changes also.

[CavaliersFTW]

The idea that datapoints 2 decades apart, before and after integration, are comparable is laughable. The only people who would consider this relevant are agenda driven posters like yourself.

Stick to making hype videos on youtube, statistical analysis isn't really your forte.
Bill Russell played until 1969

When guys like Reed, Unseld, Hayes, Beaty, Ellis, Moore, Thurmond etc on that list were also in the league some like Beaty and Ellis, Thurmond already experienced veterans themselves by that point.

3 months after Russell won an NBA championship Jabbar was in the league. What is all this 2 decades apart nonsense.

[feyki]

Adjusting the numbers to the present ..

Wilt ;

Poss,

(100/120) x (40/46)
TmPoss Min

= %72


Defensive rating ,

0.95/1.05

= %90

0.72 x 0.90 = 0.65

0.65 x 8.8 = 5.72


Bill ;

Poss ,

(100/115) x (40/44)
TmPoss. Min

= %79



Defensive rating ,

0.95/1.05

= %90


0.79 x 0.90 = 0.71

0.71 x 8.1 = 5.75

[Psileas]

Credited by who?

The LA Times.


Who tracked his blocks that season?

I wish I knew the name of the author. Although I'm pretty sure you wouldn't really care even if I did.


We have his blocks data for all or most of his games?

They gave specific total seasonal numbers in more more than 1 occasion during the season, so, I'm pretty sure they counted them.


Who tracked the data? Does the league confirm their legitimacy?

The league won't ever be willing to confirm the legitimacy of anything it hasn't tracked itself. Whether or not these stats are legitimate regardless of what the NBA claims in another story. Bear in mind, however, that adding up the existing game by game reports of Wilt's blocked shot data from that specific season, we get to an average higher than his reported 5.5.

[CavaliersFTW]

Adjusting the numbers to the present ..

Wilt ;

Poss,

(100/120) x (40/46)
TmPoss Min

= %72


Defensive rating ,

0.95/1.05

= %90

0.72 x 0.90 = 0.65

0.65 x 8.8 = 5.72


Bill ;

Poss ,

(100/115) x (40/44)
TmPoss. Min

= %79



Defensive rating ,

0.95/1.05

= %90


0.79 x 0.90 = 0.71

0.71 x 8.1 = 5.75
Without even looking at w/e formula you tried to use something isn't right when you come up with a higher number for Russell who had less blocks than Wilt.

[ShaqTwizzle]

I wish I knew the name of the author. Although I'm pretty sure you wouldn't really care even if I did.


That is sort of a rude response.
Yes I would care and I would see the article myself if possible.


They gave specific total seasonal numbers in more more than 1 occasion during the season, so, I'm pretty sure they counted them.


Ok.


Whether or not these stats are legitimate regardless of what the NBA claims in another story.

Agreed.


Bear in mind, however, that adding up the existing game by game reports of Wilt's blocked shot data from that specific season, we get to an average higher than his reported 5.5.

How much relevence that might have depends on how many games make up that sample and if we feel the sources of the information are legit/accurate.

I am not saying it is impossible especially considering his inflated minutes but I wouldn't bet on it and it doesn't mean he could replicate those numbers in more modern eras.

If guys like Hakeem & Robinson weren't getting 5+ in more modern times Wilt certainly wouldn't either.

[Psileas]

Without even looking at w/e formula you tried to use something isn't right when you come up with a higher number for Russell who had less blocks than Wilt.

He gave Wilt's era more possessions than Russell's. It should have been the other way round, imo, except if the late 50's had less possessions than the early 70's.

[CavaliersFTW]

That is sort of a rude response.
Yes I would care and I would see the article myself if possible.



Ok.



Agreed.



How much relevence that might have depends on how many games make up that sample and if we feel the sources of the information are legit/accurate.

I am not saying it is impossible especially considering his inflated minutes but I wouldn't bet on it and it doesn't mean he could replicate those numbers in more modern eras.

If guys like Hakeem & Robinson weren't getting 5+ in more modern times Wilt certainly wouldn't either.
Nobody scored more than 70 points in the 1960's outside of the legendary Elgin Baylor who had an outlier season due to military service.

If Elgin can't score more than 71 points Wilt certainly wouldn't either.

- a flaw when comparing outliers is we always try to normalize them -

[ShaqTwizzle]

Nobody scored more than 70 points in the 1960's outside of the legendary Elgin Baylor who had an outlier season due to military service.

If Elgin can't score more than 71 points Wilt certainly wouldn't either.

- a flaw when comparing outliers is we always try to normalize them -

Comparing counting numbers from one era to the next is illogical for many obvious reasons.
If you can't see that or disagree with that then you are simply delusional/wrong.

Therefore if was one was to speculate on how many blocks a guy like Russell might accumulate in the modern era the best way of doing that would be to find a player who best compares to him and see what he did.
Hakeem in my opinion is the best comparison for a modern day Russell in terms of physical size/build/athletic ability and defensive IQ.

The idea that Russell would achieve a considerably higher total of blocks then Hakeem in the modern era doesn't make much sense to me.
What exactly would allow him to achieve that?
Greater physical gifts? Nope.
Better defensive IQ? Maybe but certainly not by much.

The point is you can't compare counting numbers from one era to the next especially if one of the eras is the 60's (especially the early 60's) when the league was still early in its development, had only just barely implemented the shot-clock, was considerably less athletic overall and ran at an insane pace.

We can only speculate on how many bpg Wilt or Russell might have in any recent era.
Any counting numbers tracked from their time in that specific stat are nearly worthless in that regard.

[Psileas]

That is sort of a rude response.
Yes I would care and I would see the article myself if possible.

Ok, it was such an answer because most posters here don't ask these kinds of questions because they really care about researching a topic, but because they just want to corner the writer when his writings don't agree with their opinion/agenda. Maybe I was too abrupt here.


How much relevence that might have depends on how many games make up that sample and if we feel the sources of the information are legit/accurate.

I am not saying it is impossible especially considering his inflated minutes but I wouldn't bet on it and it doesn't mean he could replicate those numbers in more modern eras.

If guys like Hakeem & Robinson weren't getting 5+ in more modern times Wilt certainly wouldn't either.

The sample is around 17 games, 1/5 of the season. His averages in these games came at 7.5 bpg.
I don't know how they would be translated in today's era, but Wilt was reportedly still way ahead of anyone else in a league including Kareem, Thurmond and Elmore Smith, so I won't be making any case for "inflated stats", at least not as inflated as some believe. It also doesn't make any sense to me to put any player as a perceived ceiling to Wilt or to anybody else who hasn't played in the same era. What if Wilt had a comparable or even a little better knack for blocking shots than Hakeem or Robinson, coupled with the fact that he was taller and bigger than both? These 2 weren't even the consistent annual leaders in their own leagues, sometimes finding themselves below inferior defenders. Manute Bol's block numbers annihilate both of these guys' numbers just by him being incredibly long (one of the very few players to be longer than Wilt), with a good defensive instinct, while, however, weighing less than 220 pounds.

[CavaliersFTW]

Comparing counting numbers from one era to the next is illogical for many obvious reasons.
If you can't see that or disagree with that then you are simply delusional/wrong.

Therefore if was one was to speculate on how many blocks a guy like Russell might accumulate in the modern era the best way of doing that would be to find a player who best compares to him and see what he did.
Hakeem in my opinion is the best comparison for a modern day Russell in terms of physical size/build/athletic ability and defensive IQ.

The idea that Russell would achieve a considerably higher total of blocks then Hakeem in the modern era doesn't make much sense to me.
What exactly would allow him to achieve that?
Greater physical gifts? Nope.
Better defensive IQ? Maybe but certainly not by much.

The point is you can't compare counting numbers from one era to the next especially if one of the eras is the 60's (especially the early 60's) when the league was still early in its development, had only just barely implemented the shot-clock, was considerably less athletic overall and ran at an insane pace.

We can only speculate on how many bpg Wilt or Russell might have in any recent era.
Any counting numbers tracked from their time in that specific stat are nearly worthless in that regard.
Russell was an Olympic tier high jumper with flexibility like this:

Was Hakeem?

http://old.bpsd.org/ims/Tech_Ed/8th%20Grade/Webpages_10-11/4th9weeks/PD8/mastovich.alec/images/russell%203.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-SrnpVC1Qu9M/VZoaJ_lWrGI/AAAAAAAAGnM/5M_HqsFUYqM/s800-Ic42/Bill%252520Russell%252520blocking%252520a%252520sh ot.jpg

And he had the timing to block fall away jumpers... from a player the size and athleticism of Wilt. Fallaways by nature are not supposed to be easy to block.

Russell was very physically gifted as a shot blocker.

As was Wilt. They COULD just be outliers. Maybe they aren't. But I'm not ruling that out. No other players exceeded 5 blocks per game in the 1970's decade ABA or NBA. Except Wilt. And Russell in the late 60's was still doing just as much work as Wilt on those blocks. How come even Kareem didn't get close.

[feyki]

:roll:
Without even looking at w/e formula you tried to use something isn't right when you come up with a higher number for Russell who had less blocks than Wilt.

Wilt played more minutes and more defensive possesions . I adjusted that .

Edit;

I check the stats and Bill's team played 126 poss per game at between 60-68 , Wilt's teams played 124.5 poss per game at between 60-68 .

So ..

Wilt's block numbers to be 5.51 .

Bill's block numbers to be 5.25 .

My fault , sorry.

[CavaliersFTW]

Wilt played more minutes and more defensive possesions . I adjusted that .
If Wilt played for Phil Jackson he'd have played every minute of every game. Wonder what his stats would have been then.

[ShaqTwizzle]

Russell was an Olympic tier high jumper with flexibility like this:

Was Hakeem?


Young Hakeem was absolutely a freakish athlete with amazing flexibility.
I am assuming you've watched video of young Hakeem so you should agree/know that.


And he had the timing to block fall away jumpers...

Hakeem had great timing also.


Russell was very physically gifted as a shot blocker.

Agreed of course but so was Hakeem in very similar ways.
I think they are remarkably similar from a physical standpoint and that is no insult to either of them.

Anyway you and especially Psleias (sorry spelling) made some good points.
I appreciate that.

[CavaliersFTW]

Young Hakeem was absolutely a freakish athlete with amazing flexibility.
I am assuming you've watched video of young Hakeem so you should agree/know that.



Hakeem had great timing also.



Agreed of course but so was Hakeem in very similar ways.
I think they are remarkably similar from a physical standpoint and that is no insult to either of them.

Anyway you and especially Psleias (sorry spelling) made some good points.
I appreciate that.
I think Russell looks like he has greater length/flexibility/quicker timing than Hakeem on the defensive end. IE better physical tools at least when it comes to blocking shots this is from what I've seen of both of them. I think Hakeem was a physically stronger player than Russell and was far more fluid and explosive an athlete on the offensive end. Again though, how could I really quantify any of that. I'll just say that I for one definitely won't rule out the possibility that Russell and Wilt could be outliers in blocking shots. And so, I perssonally don't try to 'normalize' I just look at their stats compared with others of their era or nearest to their eras.

[longhornfan1234]

15 Steals, 24 Blocks.


Damn that era was weak :lol


Very weak. That's literally impossible to get in today's league.

[Psileas]

Very weak. That's literally impossible to get in today's league.

37 points in a quarter in any era? No way, only in a very weak era would such crap happen.

[LAZERUSS]

A couple of years ago Serge Ibaka averaged 3.7 bpg in only 27.2 mpg.

Had he been able to sustain that level for 40 mpg, and he would have averaged 5.4 bpg.

According to Harvey Pollack, Wilt had entire seasons of 10+ bpg.

Even adjusting for "pace", and Wilt likely would have seasons of 6+ bpg in the current era.

[feyki]

A couple of years ago Serge Ibaka averaged 3.7 bpg in only 27.2 mpg.

Had he been able to sustain that level for 40 mpg, and he would have averaged 5.4 bpg.

According to Harvey Pollack, Wilt had entire seasons of 10+ bpg.

Even adjusting for "pace", and Wilt likely would have seasons of 6+ bpg in the current era.


Also: Wilt in 1973, as it has been told multiple times, has been credited with 5.5 bpg in his last season (league leader) and, as far as I remember, according to the same source, Elmore Smith was at a total of 300 blocks in the same season. So, this can shut up the "midget era"/"50's stats" propagandists.


Wilt played in 100 defensive possesions at 72-73 season.

Pace is 97 , defrat 1.05 , most min 39 at last season .

72-73 lg defrat is .99 , 72-73 lakers defrat is .93

(0.93 + 0.99 ) / 2 = 0.96

0.96/1.05 = 0.91

(39/48) x 97 = 79

79 / 100 = 0.79

0.79 x 0.91 = 0.72


And ..

0.72 x 5.5 = 3.96

At "last year" s dynamics .

[riseagainst]

zero because he wouldn't make it to the NBA

:lol

[swagga]

Here is some official blocked shot data from other players of the Russell / Wilt era:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: (3.5 - 4.1bpg from '74 to '80)
Nate Thurmond: (2.9 bpg in '74)
Elvin Hayes: (3.0 bpg in '74)
Elmore Smith: (4.9 bpg in '74)
LeRoy Ellis: (1.1 bpg in '74)
Willis Reed: (1.1 bpg in '74 - on less than 30 minutes)
Dave Cowens: (1.3 bpg in '74)
Bob Lanier: (3.0 bpg in '74)
Otto Moore: (1.7 bpg in '76 - on less than 30 minutes)
Wes Unseld: (0.9 bpg in '74)
Artis Gilmore in the ABA: (5.0 bpg in '72, 3.1 and 3.4 '73-'74)
Zelmo Beaty in the ABA: (1.0 bpg in '72)

Even a few of the more prolific ones such as Jabbar, Elmore Smith and Artis Gilmore (all in the 4-5 range at some point) weren't close to Wilt or Russell

you forgot ewing and olajuwon. they too played with the guys in russell/wilt era, so they must also be from the same era. Dwight howard might be a stretch but add him too. :rolleyes:

[dunksby]

From the footage available it is evident that goal tending wasn't called strictly though.

[Achilleas]

you forget something no 3points,so more shots in the paint and more chance to get blocks,now they shot 25 3p per game and i don't think they can block them easy.
in 60s and 70s there was a 3sec defensive rule ;

[feyki]

you forget something no 3points,so more shots in the paint and more chance to get blocks,now they shot 25 3p per game and i don't think they can block them easy.
in 60s and 70s there was a 3sec defensive rule ;

More spacing , more freedom on offence ; defence is more difficult at today's . But other point ; offence is more difficult at 60's .

[longhornfan1234]

37 points in a quarter in any era? No way, only in a very weak era would such crap happen.


That's much different than getting 15 steals and 25 blocks in one game :roll: :roll: .

[PHILA]

Russell was the shot blocking master, seeing as he often would recover it himself and outlet. That is if he didn't block it directly to the guard to start the fast break. He didn't swat it as hard as possible like others, usually it was just a simple flick of the wrist. All it took was a deflection. Plus he always kept his hands up on defense while jumping. This is real "verticality", not like those Roy Hibbert fouls.

Below we can see how he keeps his arms up when defending after a fake, both in a practice drill and in playoff competition vs. Willis Reed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cxnVdpVm4o&t=2m59s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v9_aiXvoSc&t=17m44s



Now this is his signature block. Excellent reflexes for a 6'10 center to deflect the shot of Hal Greer who was a very quick player with a fast shot release.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v9_aiXvoSc&t=12m49s



http://i.imgur.com/UzgVU.png

http://i.imgur.com/3h691.png

http://i.imgur.com/ju2qS.png

[AirFederer]

Kind of coincideltal that these "outliers" both played way back when the NBA was a busch league, as Wilt himself called it.

http://cdn.gossiponthis.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/bill-russell-yawn.gif

[ShaqTwizzle]

Kind of coincideltal that these "outliers" both played way back when the NBA was a busch league, as Wilt himself called it.

http://cdn.gossiponthis.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/bill-russell-yawn.gif

I know.
Put a guy like Ibaka back in the early 60's and he could probably average 10 blocks per game.

You can't compare rebounds/blocks from back then to now.
You just can't.
It was a completely different league in so many respects.

Not to say that Wilt & Russell wouldn't be blocking tons of shots today but Wilt probably wouldn't block considerably more shots then Shaq did and Russell probably wouldn't block much more then Hakeem did.

Its just far, far harder to accumulate blocks in the modern era then it was back then.
They don't come easy anymore.
As I said earlier no one has averaged 4+ blocks since 1994 that is over 20 years ago and it isn't like we haven't had some ultra athletic amazing blockers from 95-now. We've had plenty...
But Wilt & Russell are gonna come in and average 6+ blocks per game... no way.

[CavaliersFTW]

Kind of coincideltal that these "outliers" both played way back when the NBA was a busch league, as Wilt himself called it.

http://cdn.gossiponthis.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/bill-russell-yawn.gif
I would call Steph Curry, LeBron, or Durant outliers at various facets of the game and they play today.

I would call Michael Jordan, Barkley, etc outliers at various facets of the game and they played in the 1980's and 90's

I would call Magic Johnson an outlier, and he played in the 80's.

Dr. J, etc etc etc

These are players who's abilities or special talents you don't try to "normalize" based on what other players have done for a given time. They just do what they do in a special way. I'm not strictly talking numbers. I'm just saying there's no way to quantify how they play when you leap era's but their play certainly isn't going to just become "normal" stats where whatever special outlying gifts they had line up along with others of their time. Magic is always going to be able to run and dribble with superior coordination to other 6-9 players. Curry is always going to be a "wtf" status shooter. I think Bill Russell and Wilt might be outlier shot blockers. I don't know that they are, I just think they are based on that data and their film and how it compares to their other contemporaries who were not exactly inept at blocking shots.

You generally have a lot of animosity towards me, do you think what I'm saying is unreasonable?

[CavaliersFTW]

I know.
Put a guy like Ibaka back in the early 60's and he could probably average 10 blocks per game.

You can't compare rebounds/blocks from back then to now.
You just can't.
It was a completely different league in so many respects.

Not to say that Wilt & Russell wouldn't be blocking tons of shots today but Wilt probably wouldn't block considerably more shots then Shaq did and Russell probably wouldn't block much more then Hakeem did.

Its just far, far harder to accumulate blocks in the modern era then it was back then.
They don't come easy anymore.
As I said earlier no one has averaged 4+ blocks since 1994 that is over 20 years ago and it isn't like we haven't had some ultra athletic amazing blockers from 95-now. We've had plenty...
But Wilt & Russell are gonna come in and average 6+ blocks per game... no way.
See my above post, I honestly don't think it's unreasonable.

Two outlier small forwards in the entire history of the game are playing right now in the '10's in LeBron and Durant and perhaps the best shooter off the dribble the game has EVER seen in Curry.

Why couldn't two outlier shot blocking centers have played in the 1960's? Their numbers, reputation, and film compared with other all-time-great contemporaries certainly seems to suggest even in the company of other great players they were outliers.

[juju151111]

See my above post, I honestly don't think it's unreasonable.

Two outlier small forwards in the entire history of the game are playing right now in the '10's in LeBron and Durant and perhaps the best shooter off the dribble the game has EVER seen in Curry.

Why couldn't two outlier shot blocking centers have played in the 1960's? Their numbers, reputation, and film compared with other all-time-great contemporaries certainly seems to suggest even in the company of other great players they were outliers.
The pace and guard is the reason. Late 50s and 60s i don't think wings were has good has today (I do think the Bigs were has good through). I think the averge wing player is better then the average wing player back then.

[CavaliersFTW]

Russell was the shot blocking master, seeing as he often would recover it himself and outlet. That is if he didn't block it directly to the guard to start the fast break. He didn't swat it as hard as possible like others, usually it was just a simple flick of the wrist. All it took was a deflection. Plus he always kept his hands up on defense while jumping. This is real "verticality", not like those Roy Hibbert fouls.

Below we can see how he keeps his arms up when defending after a fake, both in a practice drill and in playoff competition vs. Willis Reed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cxnVdpVm4o&t=2m59s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v9_aiXvoSc&t=17m44s



Now this is his signature block. Excellent reflexes for a 6'10 center to deflect the shot of Hal Greer who was a very quick player with a fast shot release.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v9_aiXvoSc&t=12m49s



http://i.imgur.com/UzgVU.png

http://i.imgur.com/3h691.png

http://i.imgur.com/ju2qS.png
And Greer is falling away.

Fall aways by nature are not supposed to be blocked - the their core they are a shot intended to move away from shot blockers and are inherently more difficult and so a calculated risk - all for the purpose of not getting blocked. Russell even got Wilt's fall aways. I've seen two examples on film, and there are a few pictures out there of him getting it. Takes incredibly quick reflexes and some goat tier anticipation to stuff a 7 footers fade away jump shot.

[ShaqTwizzle]

See my above post, I honestly don't think it's unreasonable.

Two outlier small forwards in the entire history of the game are playing right now in the '10's in LeBron and Durant and perhaps the best shooter off the dribble the game has EVER seen in Curry.

Why couldn't two outlier shot blocking centers have played in the 1960's? Their numbers, reputation, and film compared with other all-time-great contemporaries certainly seems to suggest even in the company of other great players they were outliers.

I just think that objectively you can make a whole laundry list of truly logical reasons why hyper athletic shot-blocking bigs would have a much easier time accumulating blocks back in the 60's then they would today.
I don't think there is anything dishonest about that.

That doesn't mean that Wilt & Russ wouldn't be amazing blockers today but it does call into question the idea that they'd be huge outliers in the modern era when compared to the best of the best.

I think the differences are so significant that it makes any speculation hard.
It is almost as bad when it comes to rebounding.

I have no problem if you've watched film and truly believe that they have something that none of the modern guys or the best blockers from the last 20 years have had and so they would still be incredible outliers averaging 5-6+ in an era when no one reached 4 but personally I don't lean that way as of now.

I could be wrong but we'll never know.
Speculation is all we can ever have when it comes to that.

You mentioned Curry but I don't think that is an apples to apples comparison.
Can you make a long list of logical reasons for why it would be harder for current Curry to make 3pt shots in the 80's or 90's? assuming he had a good coach who designed an offense around his shooting ability (like Indiana did for Reggie Miller).

[ShaqTwizzle]

I would like to see the block totals for the entire league since they started tracking them.

I don't know if that data is readily available somewhere but I bet overall block totals have slowly & steadily gone down over the years.

[CavaliersFTW]

I would like to see the block totals for the entire league since they started tracking them.

I don't know if that data is readily available somewhere but I bet overall block totals have slowly & steadily gone down over the years.
They have not gone slowly and steadily down over the years:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/blk_per_g_top_10.html

Which is why I'm inclined to believe Wilt and Russell could be outliers.

Guys who played in their era or in seasons immediately following them leading the league in blocked shots weren't also blocking freak numbers. Their contemporaries were blocking the same numbers players block today, or in the '00's, 90's, or in the 80's can output.

[STATUTORY]

I would like to see the block totals for the entire league since they started tracking them.

I don't know if that data is readily available somewhere but I bet overall block totals have slowly & steadily gone down over the years.

I would guess not. The number of blocks per game is probably relatively steady even if the quality or talent of league has increased significantly. The reason is that an unathletic white guy is not gonna block more shots even if he's playing against another unathletic white guy. The reason that Russell/Wilt are such outliers is because they were athletic players playing against relatively unathletic opponents

[AirFederer]

I would call Steph Curry, LeBron, or Durant outliers at various facets of the game and they play today.

I would call Michael Jordan, Barkley, etc outliers at various facets of the game and they played in the 1980's and 90's

I would call Magic Johnson an outlier, and he played in the 80's.

Dr. J, etc etc etc

These are players who's abilities or special talents you don't try to "normalize" based on what other players have done for a given time. They just do what they do in a special way. I'm not strictly talking numbers. I'm just saying there's no way to quantify how they play when you leap era's but their play certainly isn't going to just become "normal" stats where whatever special outlying gifts they had line up along with others of their time. Magic is always going to be able to run and dribble with superior coordination to other 6-9 players. Curry is always going to be a "wtf" status shooter. I think Bill Russell and Wilt might be outlier shot blockers. I don't know that they are, I just think they are based on that data and their film and how it compares to their other contemporaries who were not exactly inept at blocking shots.

You generally have a lot of animosity towards me, do you think what I'm saying is unreasonable?


Animosity? :lol :cheers:
Not saying Wilt and Russ wouldn`t be great shot blockers today, but to say that they are the best ever, based on stats from that era, just no.
I`ve always recognized both as ATGs.

[CavaliersFTW]

I would guess not. The number of blocks per game is probably relatively steady even if the quality or talent of league has increased significantly. The reason is that an unathletic white guy is not gonna block more shots even if he's playing against another unathletic white guy. The reason that Russell/Wilt are such outliers is because they were athletic players playing against relatively unathletic opponents
Such as:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH8tpl04EDI

[STATUTORY]

Such as:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH8tpl04EDI

I mean we know about guys like Bellamy, but can you also compile some footage for the random white dudes he's swatting for half of that video? How does that guy compare with players today? The point is about average quality of league, outliers are just that, outliers.

[CavaliersFTW]

I mean we know about guys like Bellamy, but can you also compile some footage for the random white dudes he's swatting for half of that video? How does that guy compare with players today? The point is about average quality of league, outliers are just that, outliers.
I don't see any 'random white guys'? I see players whom I can identify by name.

Maybe try learning the players names from that era. That way you can mention their name, and we can talk about footage and career accolades, size, athleticism or basketball abilities they had. Be specific.

Did you know Russell blocked Bellamy's first 6 shots in their initial head to head?

Did you know Wilt blocked his first 9 shots in their initial head to head?

Those are pretty prolific numbers for the guy getting swatted to be the antithesis of a short white guy.

[LAZERUSS]

I don't see any 'random white guys'? I see players whom I can identify by name.

Maybe try learning the players names from that era. That way you can mention their name, and we can talk about footage and career accolades, size, athleticism or basketball abilities they had. Be specific.

Did you know Russell blocked Bellamy's first 6 shots in their initial head to head?

Did you know Wilt blocked his first 9 shots in their initial head to head?

Those are pretty prolific numbers for the guy getting swatted to be the antithesis of a short white guy.

And a 35 year old Wilt had a known 15 blocks against a peak Kareem in the '72 WCF's, and you can be certain that the majority of those were against the "unblockable" sky-hook.

And speaking of "white guys", how does this 6-7 3/4 clown lead the league in rpg, and with 15.2 rpg in less than 36 mpg?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7TnbhJr8iY


And yet, we are supposed to believe a Wilt, at 7-1+, 290+, with a 7-8 wingspan, and likely a 40" vertical, with enormous strength...would struggle in today's NBA??????

[julizaver]

Here is some official blocked shot data from other players of the Russell / Wilt era:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: (3.5 - 4.1bpg from '74 to '80)
Nate Thurmond: (2.9 bpg in '74)
Elvin Hayes: (3.0 bpg in '74)
Elmore Smith: (4.9 bpg in '74)
LeRoy Ellis: (1.1 bpg in '74)
Willis Reed: (1.1 bpg in '74 - on less than 30 minutes)
Dave Cowens: (1.3 bpg in '74)
Bob Lanier: (3.0 bpg in '74)
Otto Moore: (1.7 bpg in '76 - on less than 30 minutes)
Wes Unseld: (0.9 bpg in '74)
Artis Gilmore in the ABA: (5.0 bpg in '72, 3.1 and 3.4 '73-'74)
Zelmo Beaty in the ABA: (1.0 bpg in '72)

Even a few of the more prolific ones such as Jabbar, Elmore Smith and Artis Gilmore (all in the 4-5 range at some point) weren't close to Wilt or Russell

Even though not officially counted (Wilt's blocks) when you searching archive newspapers you will find that Wilt Chamberlain was superior shotblocker to the Kareem, Artis and Smith by opponents testimony and unofficial numbers. In his last season Wilt was blocking around 5.5 blocks per game. And blocked 70 shots in the first 10 postseason games.
And you can see that in the mid 80s older Kareem and Gilmore used to block more than 2 blocks per game, where a young Hakeem was blocking around 3 per game. And that Hakeem at 35 and 36 blocked around 2.5 per game at the late 90s. Dikembe Mutombo at his prime was equal to Hakeem and had high seasons of 4+ blocks as Hakeem. That Mutombo was blocking almost 2 per game at 37 during 2004.
Anyone could make a conclusion of his own based on that data.
About the topic - probably Wilt blocked more shots, but Russell not far behind as it can be seen in the numbers you posted.

[LAZERUSS]

There seems to be this perception that Russell's blocks were kept in play, while Chamberlain was swatting shots into the seats.

There are a TON of Wilt's blocks on YouTube, and the vast majority of them were kept in play.

[Psileas]

That's much different than getting 15 steals and 25 blocks in one game :roll: :roll: .

Shaq had a 28 rebound, 15 block game in 36 mins in another apparently weak era. A few seasons before, Hakeem was posting a QD, then the league took it back, then Hakeem posted another, just for the hell of it.
Weak era confirmed and there's nothing you can do to change this. :applause:

[kshutts1]

Shaq had a 28 rebound, 15 block game in 36 mins in another apparently weak era. A few seasons before, Hakeem was posting a QD, then the league took it back, then Hakeem posted another, just for the hell of it.
Weak era confirmed and there's nothing you can do to change this. :applause:
I knew about the QD.. who doesn't? But he had one taken back? Any info/link on that game?

[kshutts1]

It bugs me that a lot of people, whether hating or just struggle to comprehend greatness, try to compare Wilt and Russell to today's bigs, and vice versa, when it comes to statistical feats.

They are completely different eras, and most of us that appreciate the older players do not believe they could accomplish the same feats today, but rather that they are among the best players ever, and would be no matter what era they played.

Of course Deandre Jordan and Ibaka would tear it up with rebounding back then, and maybe with blocks. But they weren't there, and didn't do it. Russell and Wilt did. Give credit where it's due.

[Psileas]

I knew about the QD.. who doesn't? But he had one taken back? Any info/link on that game?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199003030HOU.html
http://mentalfloss.com/article/27922/hakeem-olajuwons-phantom-quadruple-double

[inclinerator]

couldnt u goal tend back then? dwight would have averaged 7 blocks

[LAZERUSS]

couldnt u goal tend back then? dwight would have averaged 7 blocks

Goal tending was illegal at both ends before Wilt came into the NBA.

BTW, HOF stats maven Harvey Pollack had seasonal estimates with Wilt blocking 10+ shots per game.

[Duffy Pratt]

They have not gone slowly and steadily down over the years:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/blk_per_g_top_10.html

Which is why I'm inclined to believe Wilt and Russell could be outliers.

Guys who played in their era or in seasons immediately following them leading the league in blocked shots weren't also blocking freak numbers. Their contemporaries were blocking the same numbers players block today, or in the '00's, 90's, or in the 80's can output.

Check the team average blocks, instead of the individual leaders.

From 1981 to 1990, team average blocks ranged from a low of 415 in 1990 to a high of 459 in 1983. Over the last ten years, team average blocks have ranged from a low of 336 to a high of 421. In the earlier sample, the low was an outlier with most seasons averaging between 435 and 440. In the last ten years, both the low and high are outliers, and all but one year is below 400, most between 385 and 399.

In general, it looks like shot blocking has fallen off a little more than 10% since the 80s. The stats for the 70s, pre-merger are lower than the 80s, ranging from 349 to 416. Shot blocking took off with the merger.

[HighFlyer23]

Lol what a joke of an era

The infancy if the game

[feyki]

Lol what a joke of an era

The infancy if the game

What a joke of a comment !

[Nuff Said]

A lot of the blocks I've seen from wilt were goaltending. I wonder how many shots they truly blocked.

[CavaliersFTW]

A lot of the blocks I've seen from wilt were goaltending. I wonder how many shots they truly blocked.
How do you know the clips you saw weren't whistled appropriately as goal tending?

IE - not counted towards his statistics :hammerhead:

[LAZERUSS]

A lot of the blocks I've seen from wilt were goaltending. I wonder how many shots they truly blocked.

Actually, I could argue that there were probably far more questionable goal tending calls against Wilt in his career, than actual goal tends.

[dunksby]

Actually, I could argue that there were probably far more questionable goal tending calls against Wilt in his career, than actual goal tends.
Of course, goal tending wasn't called strictly back then, and Wilt took a lot more shots than he blocked so it's natural.

[CavaliersFTW]

Of course, goal tending wasn't called strictly back then, and Wilt took a lot more shots than he blocked so it's natural.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXLvZg_HEKg

Film doesn't agree with you.

I think you guys get hung up on watching Wilt highlights that for a different purpose had deliberately included goaltending plays (to show how high he got... not to show goaltending was any more or less likely to be called)... you know those plays were actually whistled as goal tends accordingly right? It's no ones fault but your own for assuming they weren't and failing to consider the alternative.

Watch that film. Kareem gets tagged with 2 goal tends immediately. As was typical on goaltending plays.

[dunksby]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXLvZg_HEKg

Film doesn't agree with you.

I think you guys get hung up on watching Wilt highlights that for a different purpose had deliberately included goaltending plays (to show how high he got... not to show goaltending was any more or less likely to be called)... you know those plays were actually whistled as goal tends accordingly right? It's no ones fault but your own for assuming they weren't and failing to consider the alternative.

Watch that film. Kareem gets tagged with 2 goal tends immediately. As was typical on goaltending plays.
Refs call traveling in today's game but not strictly, same case with goal tending in those days.

[CavaliersFTW]

Refs call traveling in today's game but not strictly, same case with goal tending in those days.
You came up with that hypothesis out of thin air, actually not thin air i'd guess it's from bias against statistics of players and/or fans that post here about that era and/or the 'highlights' where goal tends were deliberately shown.

But it's not the case.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEM6bgTQqec

If you goal tended, you were likely to get tagged with goal tending plain and simple. The rule appears to be the same then and now.

[feyki]

I adjust the numbers to 75 possesions and 1.06 poss ratings ;

Wilt - 0.85 Steals , 5.05 Blocks

Bill - 3.45 Steals(If we don't count the 15 steals game , steals numbers to be 2.45) , 4.85 Blocks

[LAZERUSS]

I adjust the numbers to 75 possesions and 1.06 poss ratings ;

Wilt - 0.85 Steals , 5.05 Blocks

Bill - 3.45 Steals(If we don't count the 15 steals game , steals numbers to be 2.45) , 4.85 Blocks

If Whiteside can average 4.5 bpg in only 29 mpg, I don't see a problem with a Wilt, who was taller, longer, faster, stronger, and likely more athletic...with much greater endurance, being capable of 6+ bpg in today's NBA.

[feyki]

If Whiteside can average 4.5 bpg in only 29 mpg, I don't see a problem with a Wilt, who was taller, longer, faster, stronger, and likely more athletic...with much greater endurance, being capable of 6+ bpg in today's NBA.

Whiteside played just 1/3 of the season . Whiteside averaged 4.15 blocks on 75 possesions at last season .

And Whiteside has same wingspan as Wilt .

Gobert and Whiteside only have elite physicality like Bill,Wilt,Kareem at now .

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

135 games where blocked shot data exists, 8.1 blocks per game over said 135 games

(Click for High-Res)
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fRFgkADAK80/VkG0j3zRocI/AAAAAAAAHTA/swVybP9vvpE/s1280-Ic42/Russell%252520blocked%252520shots%252520135g.jpg (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fRFgkADAK80/VkG0j3zRocI/AAAAAAAAHTA/swVybP9vvpE/s0-Ic42/Russell%252520blocked%252520shots%252520135g.jpg)

Do you think he had a quintiple double in his career?

only people that coulda gotten it are wilt and russel. thats about it.

[LAZERUSS]

Do you think he had a quintiple double in his career?

only people that coulda gotten it are wilt and russel. thats about it.

There are some "estimates" out there which give Chamberlain a "quin-double."

Not sure how accurate they are, though.

For instance, in his known 53-32-14 game (on 24-29 FG/FGA BTW), there is an estimated 24 blocks and 11 steals.

In any case, I would suspect that a prime Wilt ('66 thru '68) possibly had some.

[LAZERUSS]

Whiteside played just 1/3 of the season . Whiteside averaged 4.15 blocks on 75 possesions at last season .

And Whiteside has same wingspan as Wilt .

Gobert and Whiteside only have elite physicality like Bill,Wilt,Kareem at now .

Not really arguing with you. However, there are those that scoff at Wilt's blocked shots, and what he would achieve in today's NBA.

BTW, Ibaka averaged something like 3.65 bpg and in only 27 mpg a few years ago, as well.

In any case, a prime Chamberlain, with his height, length, speed, and leaping ability, and probably playing at least 42 mpg in the current NBA, would likely be capable of close to 6 bpg.

[feyki]

Not really arguing with you. However, there are those that scoff at Wilt's blocked shots, and what he would achieve in today's NBA.

BTW, Ibaka averaged something like 3.65 bpg and in only 27 mpg a few years ago, as well.

In any case, a prime Chamberlain, with his height, length, speed, and leaping ability, and probably playing at least 42 mpg in the current NBA, would likely be capable of close to 6 bpg.

Ibaka's 2012 season blocks numbers to be 4.97 when adjusting the 75 poss .

2013 - 3.59

2014 - 2.98

42 mpg means 89 possesions in todays pace . 89/75 x 5.05 = 5.99

Ibaka's 2012 blocks numbers is interesting . Very interesting .

[LAZERUSS]

Ibaka's 2012 season blocks numbers to be 4.97 when adjusting the 75 poss .

2013 - 3.59

2014 - 2.98

42 mpg means 89 possesions in todays pace . 89/75 x 5.05 = 5.99

Ibaka's 2012 blocks numbers is interesting . Very interesting .

Your math is probably right on.

Of course the "Wilt-bashers" (and you are not one of them BTW) will claim "weak era."

Yep...Chamberlain was only blocking 5-10 shots per game in an era with players like Lanier, Bellamy, Thurmond, Kareem, and even Gilmore in their limited H2H.

[feyki]

Your math is probably right on.

Of course the "Wilt-bashers" (and you are not one of them BTW) will claim "weak era."

Yep...Chamberlain was only blocking 5-10 shots per game in an era with players like Lanier, Bellamy, Thurmond, Kareem, and even Gilmore in their limited H2H.

:cheers: :cheers:

[LAZERUSS]

:cheers: :cheers:

:cheers: :cheers: