Kawhi Leonard #8, Blake Griffin #9. ESPN.

[Queen Sansa]

What. The. ****.

[fpliii]

ESPN's panel would take 7 guys over Leonard...? Seems like a lot.

[sdot_thadon]

Whoa:biggums:

[T_L_P]

That's overrating Kawhi.

Blake just put on an incredible Playoff performance (what was it, 25/15/8 or something insane in the Spurs series) while Kawhi relatively shit the bed.

Kawhi is just on the cusp of being a top 10 player, if not just there already.

[kennethgriffin]

That's overrating Kawhi.

Blake just put on an incredible Playoff performance (what was it, 25/15/8 or something insane in the Spurs series) while Kawhi relatively shit the bed.

Kawhi is just on the cusp of being a top 10 player, if not just there already.


kawhi carried your boi to a championship, won finals mvp, won defensive player of the year


and youre selling him out for a 3rd round virgin

[CurryOverLebron]

Kawhi 19 spots higher than Carmelo :eek:

[Fire Colangelo]

ESPN's panel would take 7 guys over Leonard...? Seems like a lot.

AD
LeBron
Durant
Westbrook
Harden
Curry
CP3
Griffin
Carmelo

That's 9 I'd take over Leonard.

Then you have guys like LMA, PG, Klay, Irving, etc who are all on Leonard's level.

At best you have Leonard at 10.....

[Jameerthefear]

ESPN needs to lay down the ****ing crack pipe

[KG215]

kawhi carried your boi to a championship, won finals mvp, won defensive player of the year


and youre selling him out for a 3rd round virgin

Playoff stats 2014:

Tim Duncan: 16.3 PPG, 9.2 RPG, 2.0 APG, 1.3 BPG, 57% TS, 21.1 PER, .204 WS/48, 3.2 WS

Kawhi Leonard: 14.3 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 1.7 APG, 1.7 SPG, 61% TS, 18.7 PER, .191 WS/48, 2.9 WS


How, exactly, did Leonard "carry" Duncan to a championship?

[GIF REACTION]

Originally Posted by kennethgriffinKG215

[kennethgriffin]

Playoff stats 2014:

Tim Duncan: 16.3 PPG, 9.2 RPG, 2.0 APG, 1.3 BPG, 57% TS, 21.1 PER, .204 WS/48, 3.2 WS

Kawhi Leonard: 14.3 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 1.7 APG, 1.7 SPG, 61% TS, 18.7 PER, .191 WS/48, 2.9 WS


How, exactly, did Leonard "carry" Duncan to a championship?


oh.. so its about playoff stats now and not just finals numbers



wouldn't have known that based on how people here have educated me on the kobe/shaq championship runs

[KG215]

oh.. so its about playoff stats now and not just finals numbers



wouldn't have known that based on how people here have educated me on the kobe/shaq championship runs
Right, you always try to argue the WCF is the real NBA Finals. If that as the case then, it's the case now, too.

2014 WCF Stats

Tim Duncan: 17.8 PPG, 10.2 RPG, 2.2 APG, 48% FG, 87% FT

Kawhi Leonard: 11.8 PPG, 5.5 RPG, 2.5 APG, 41% FG, 91% FT


So I ask you again, how, exactly, did Leonard carry Duncan to a championship in 2014?

[kennethgriffin]

Right, you always try to argue the WCF is the real NBA Finals. If that as the case then, it's the case now, too.

2014 WCF Stats

Tim Duncan: 17.8 PPG, 10.2 RPG, 2.2 APG, 48% FG, 87% FT

Kawhi Leonard: 11.8 PPG, 5.5 RPG, 2.5 APG, 41% FG, 91% FT


So I ask you again, how, exactly, did Leonard carry Duncan to a championship in 2014?


ok.. duncan has a legit 4.5 if kobe has a legit 5

this is your only out. better take it while its hot

[GIF REACTION]

kenneth has the best avatar on the forum

[ShawkFactory]

ok.. duncan has a legit 4.5 if kobe has a legit 5

this is your only out. better take it while its hot
What out? They both have 5 rings.

[Al Thornton]

for this regular season it's not that crazy. blake doesn't try on defense during the season and kawhi is the dpoy + a very good offensive player.

[LoneyROY7]

:coleman:

Doing my boy dirty.

[Jameerthefear]

for this regular season it's not that crazy. blake doesn't try on defense during the season and kawhi is the dpoy + a very good offensive player.
kawhi could never lead a team to 50+ wins like blake could though

[Lebronxrings]

ok.. duncan has a legit 4.5 if kobe has a legit 5

this is your only out. better take it while its hot
lol at no comeback so you resort to this pathetic bullshiet. you're such a bad poster.

[Spurs m8]

The Hand > T-Rex

[Genaro]

Are there people who still care for ESPN ranking?

[Lebronxrings]

the pop system continues to elevate role players:

duncan,parker,gino,now kawhi.

[feyki]

the pop system continues to elevate role players:

duncan,parker,gino,now kawhi.

Mindless :facepalm


Kawhi's ranking should be between 13-18 .

Lebron
Curry
Harden
Durant
Davis
CP3
West


Duncan
Butler
Marc
Wall
Aldridge

All of them above Kawhi

[Spurs m8]

the pop system continues to elevate role players:

duncan,parker,gino

Ah well, all HOF with a far greater record than 2/6

True Winners, none of this faux hero, loser shit

[Spurs m8]

Mindless :facepalm


Kawhi's ranking should be between 13-18 .

Lebron
Curry
Harden
Durant
Davis
CP3
West


Duncan
Butler
Marc
Wall
Aldridge

All of them above Kawhi

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[ProfessorMurder]

Taking Kawhi off of the Spurs would net more losses for his team than taking Blake off of the Clippers would for his team.

[kennethgriffin]

Mindless :facepalm


Kawhi's ranking should be between 13-18 .

Lebron
Curry
Harden
Durant
Davis
CP3
West


Duncan
Butler
Marc
Wall
Aldridge

All of them above Kawhi


i agree with everyone except the guys in bold


the only guy on sanantonio who can be argued over kawhi is their new addition LMA

[Spurs m8]

I feel like im missing something with West below CP...

[JellyBean]

ESPN needs to lay down the ****ing crack pipe


:oldlol: :applause:

[Nick Young]

What. The. ****.
one player wins titles. the other is a choke artist who can't play defense.

[Nick Young]

kawhi could never lead a team to 50+ wins like blake could though
He easily could if he had CP3 as his teammate at point guard.

[AnaheimLakers24]

Why would spurs fan be upset that hes so high? Oh right, its just duncan vampires :roll:

[Gotterdammerung]

4 years ago, Leonard was projected as a defensive & rebounding specialist, and an occasional scorer thanks to his athletic gifts.

Now, in 2015-16, Leonard will be the top offensive option on a team with LaMarcus Aldridge, and three legends in Parker, Ginobili and Duncan.

We all saw the full potential of Leonard in the last 3 games of the 2014 Finals, where he scored 23.7 ppg against the Miami Heat, despite taking only 11.7 shots per game. The majority of those shots were not assisted, mostly in the mid-range and tough shots in traffic.

During last season, despite eye and hand injuries, Leonard continued to improve: he became a weapon on the low block in iso situations with step-throughs, step backs & fadeaway jumpers, plus some hook shots. Averaging 18 ppg in 31 minutes on 52%FG 36%3FG and 80% FT.

It was going well until Game 5 of the first round in the 2015 playoffs. Leonard shot a miserable 29.5% and slumped to 14.3 a game.

Now, in the preseason, Leonard has increased his useage % to 31.5.

However, this is not to say that we've seen peak Leonard. Better ball handling, better at drawing fouls, improving passing and become an off-the-dribble elite shooter from 3FG. He still needs to learn how to create space for himself with ball handling, and mature his offensive game to something closer to the Beard.

I guess the ranking by ESPN is less about the past and more about the future. While we all saw peak Blake Griffin in the playoffs, we haven't seen the best of Leonard yet, and he's already a much better defender than Griffin. :cheers:

[bizil]

AD
LeBron
Durant
Westbrook
Harden
Curry
CP3
Griffin
Carmelo

That's 9 I'd take over Leonard.

Then you have guys like LMA, PG, Klay, Irving, etc who are all on Leonard's level.

At best you have Leonard at 10.....

I agree! I gotta admit, Leonard is becoming one of the most overrated players I've seen in a while. He HASN'T proved to be an alpha dog scoring SF yet. He also isn't a point forward kind of SF. He's a great defender and a very good to great rebounding SF. But in MY OPINION, that isn't TRUE top 10 quality material. At best he's number 10. But more likely in the top 13-15 range. But Leonard is still growing as a player, so in the future he could evolve into a true top 10 kind of player. But as of now, its a BORDERLINE case at best.

[Lebron23]

ESPN Sucks. I bet my @$$. Kawhi cannot carry a team once duncan, parker, and ginobili retired.

And Blake Griffin > Kaway Leonard in the playoffs.

[Spurs m8]

ESPN Sucks. I bet my @$$. Kawhi cannot carry a team once duncan, parker, and ginobili retired.

And Blake Griffin > Kaway Leonard in the playoffs.

I'd take the one with the FMVP and multiple WCF and Finals appearances, over the repeated choke artist who can't get past Round 2 - even with the supposed GOAT PG.

TBH

But of course you're salty at the LeBron killer tbh
And spare me the junk time LeBron stat padding.

Cheers

[Lebron23]

I'd take the one with the FMVP and multiple WCF and Finals appearances, over the repeated choke artist who can't get past Round 2 - even with the supposed GOAT GP.

TBH

But of course you're salty at the LeBron killer tbh
And spare me the junk time LeBron stat padding.

Cheers


What LeBron Killer?? LeBron averaged 29 ppg on 60 FG% against him in the 2014 NBA Finals.

His teammates out played LeBron's teammates. He'll be another Rondo once the big 3 is gone.

[Spurs m8]

What LeBron Killer?? LeBron averaged 29 ppg on 60 FG% against him in the 2014 NBA Finals.

His teammates out played LeBron's teammates. He'll be another Rondo once the big 3 is gone.

Yep, see i said it, i knew you'd play the stupid kunt card.

Stat padding when games are over and Kawhis off the court doesn't mean shit, theres a reason LeBron and the Heat were embarrassed and then dismantled after that series tbh

[ArbitraryWater]

Kawhi could no doubt be the 4th best after Bron/KD/AD

[bizil]

ESPN Sucks. I bet my @$$. Kawhi cannot carry a team once duncan, parker, and ginobili retired.

And Blake Griffin > Kaway Leonard in the playoffs.

That's the thing about Leonard! I think if u are a top 10 player in the world, u gotta be able to be an alpha dog. And CARRY A TEAM! If u aren't that kind of player, u gotta be like a Bill Russell, Pippen, or a Jason Kidd to be in the top 10. Guys who are GREAT at defending, passing, and rebounding for their positions. And ALSO be very good scorers. Leonard ISNT on the level of guys like Russ, Pip, and Kidd. LET ALONE guys like Durant, Bron, Curry, Westbrook, and Blake.

[bigkingsfan]

First they overate Kobe and now this? Come on ESPN

[Lebron23]

Yep, see i said it, i knew you'd play the stupid kunt card.

Stat padding when games are over and Kawhis off the court doesn't mean shit, theres a reason LeBron and the Heat were embarrassed and then dismantled after that series tbh


The Clippers embarrassed the Spurs last season. You stupid jerk off. And Blake Griffin was the best player in that series.

I expect another first round exit from the Spurs this year. Duncan would be 40 yrs.old at the start of the playoffs. And father time is going to beat his @$$.

[Smoke117]

We've known Leonard was overrated for awhile now.

[Lebron23]

We've known Leonard was overrated for awhile now.


He's like a young Rajon Rondo that he plays on a very good team, and it hides his weaknesses.

[bluechox2]

a role player is one thing...espn thinks hes a superstar..:lol retards

[Lebron23]

I want to see a rematch in the 2016 NBA Playoffs.

[kennethgriffin]

the best part about lebron fans saying leonard is overrated... is that the guy basically stole lebrons title and FMVP out from under him.. then won an award lebron still has never claimed in his career. even with all his bullsh*t hype about defending all 5 positions


i agree that leonard is a bit overrated... but so is lebron



if you asked me who i'd rather have on my team going forward. i'd take kawhi

[dubeta]

the best part about lebron fans saying leonard is overrated... is that the guy basically stole lebrons title and FMVP out from under him


i agree that leonard is a bit overrated... but so is lebron



if you asked me who i'd rather have on my team going forward. i'd take kawhi


Kobe's the 100th best player in the league. :roll: :roll:

[Lebron23]

Kobe's the 100th best player in the league. :roll: :roll:


Lebron James and LeBron James Jr > Kobe. I hope LeBron James Jr. pulls a Kobe in his rookie season, and demanded to play on a very good team.

[kennethgriffin]

Kobe's the 100th best player in the league. :roll: :roll:


no he isnt... thats just what espn is predicting he'd contribute to his total season production


i'd say theyre about right. i see him playing around 40 games and retiring


but when hes on the court and healthy dude can still ball like a top 10 player at his age


i see him averaging around 22/5/5 on 44%


but his body will give out

[r0drig0lac]

Best perimeter defender in the world, and only guy in the top 10 with the combination of more rare prizes basketball (FMVP and DPOY) .. to me it looks good.

[kennethgriffin]

Lebron James and LeBron James Jr > Kobe. I hope LeBron James Jr. pulls a Kobe in his rookie season, and demanded to play on a very good team.


even if kobe had the pull to force his way to LA for their starting center. ( which he didnt )

kobe got there before shaq. and the 1995 lakers had magic johnson retiring ... so an average team loses their starting center and point guard. but kobes ring chasing of some sort?

and even if shaq went there before kobe did ( which he didnt ) ... wtf did shaq prove? he got swept or missed the playoffs every year before that season since 1993


and to take it one step further. the last thing a rookie wants to do is come off the bench or sacrifice his career stats. they wanna stat pad and get paid right away...


kobe went to LA because jerry west thought he was a 1 in a generation type player and kobe showed interest in them due to his childhood being magic and his favorite team being the lakers


kobe didnt have nearly enough value as a rookie to pull such strings. since he wasnt even a top 10 pick



BUT... if all the negatives are correct and kobe was infact the true mastermind behind it all. and saw something in a raw version of shaq that cried in sweep after sweep after sweep.... then he truly is the greatest visionary of our time and the real brains behind all of jerry wests moves during his tenure with the los angeles lakers.


and thus. making kobe. the most pivotal piece in laker history. if he wasnt already






http://i.imgur.com/3LQ2kCc.gif

[Spurs m8]

The Clippers embarrassed the Spurs last season. You stupid jerk off. And Blake Griffin was the best player in that series.

I expect another first round exit from the Spurs this year. Duncan would be 40 yrs.old at the start of the playoffs. And father time is going to beat his @$$.

lmfao what a naive post

LeBron fans are always gonna hate Kawhi.

Cop it..bitches

[Smoke117]

even if kobe had the pull to force his way to LA for their starting center. ( which he didnt )



Just stop...it's common knowledge Kobe forced his way there.

[Tking714]

Kawhi is 10x better than Blake on defense. Blake skills are redundant on his own team. He needs to be manning the paint on both ends of the floor not trying to get lebron-ish stats

Blake's still a beast, but Kawhi is a true lockdown defender if i've ever seen one

[Tking714]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hnZ_knty6s

Kawhi will make anyone look like they can't even dribble

[dubeta]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hnZ_knty6s

Kawhi will make anyone look like they can't even dribble

LOL, hes not even a better defender than LeBron

stop it.

[Tking714]

LOL, hes not even a better defender than LeBron

stop it.

way better than Lebron on defense. Man to man, hedging, rotating over. He covers so many holes in that defense that's why he's always on the floor.

You're gonna take Blakes sloppy ass 20 ppg with suspect handles and less than 1 block and steal per game? No thanks

[dhsilv]

Kobe's the 100th best player in the league. :roll: :roll:

Yeah, ESPN looked bad there. I mean he's really going to JUMP 160 players and move up into the top 100? At his age? Oh well, the 93 I always viewed as kinda a life time achievement award for the guy.

[Spurs m8]

Bit of denial in this thread, I love it!!

SUCK IT UP

[rmt]

Leonard has had a very strange career. He's got a FMVP and DPOY but has yet to go to an all-star game or all-nba. He's proven he can play at a very high level in the most pressure packed situations (2 Finals) but hasn't had to carry a team during the regular season. His potential is off-the-charts, but he hasn't gone through the normal progression of most stars who have to do heavy lifting before getting the awards/honors.

For him, I guess, it's been a dream career - able to grow and develop but without the usual pressure because of the team he plays on. I look forward to how Pop is gonna integrate LMA and give Leonard more responsibility on the offensive end.

[LoneyROY7]

A guy who's best season last year amounted to 16/7/2 is better than one of the most dynamic overall players in the league?

:yaohappy:

The guy rides Pop and Duncan coattails to an NBA Finals, plays DECENT, gets a very fortunate Finals MVP and now he's a superstar? **** outta here.

[Lebron23]

A guy who's best season last year amounted to 16/7/2 is better than one of the most dynamic overall players in the league?

:yaohappy:

The guy rides Pop and Duncan coattails to an NBA Finals, plays DECENT, gets a very fortunate Finals MVP and now he's a superstar? **** outta here.


I am waiting for you to posts in this thread. I must admit that Griffin is my 2nd favorite player in the league.

Last year he had a break out performance in the playoffs.

[LoneyROY7]

I am waiting for you to posts in this thread. I must admit that Griffin is my 2nd favorite player in the league.

Last year he had a break out performance in the playoffs.

Blake has a lot of similarities to Bron, honestly. It's made me really appreciate what LeBron does night in/night out.

[Lebron23]

Blake has a lot of similarities to Bron, honestly. It's made me really appreciate what LeBron does night in/night out.


Blake is a beast. I expect another break out performance in the regular season.

[Kblaze8855]

Its getting the feel of the time when people were saying Manu was better than Tmac and Kobe. Not quite the same level of "Wtf..."ness since Leonards defensive advantage means he probably is a better total player than Blake...

They just dont usually care to look at it that way.

If hes better than Shawn Marion is it like...by a lot? Marion was a notch behind as a defender....but just as versatile. He was guarding 2-5 Tmac and Yao...ive seen it). Top rebounder. Elite athlete. Big blocks and steals guy. 18-22ppg. More of a finisher but Leonard isnt just...creating that many shots himself. Id say hes currently the 3rd or 4th best straight up scorer on his team even if he leads it(you shouldnt need it explained how that happens). Leonard has a prettier shot bu Marion did at one point shoot 39% on 4.5 attempts a night so he could shoot...it just didnt look good.

They are at least...on a similar level right? Leonard if he got Shawns crazy minutes would do similar numbers I expect. Leonard doing 24 a game over 3 nights doesnt mean thats his likely night in night out performance on his own team. Marion in 06 without Amare did 3 months of 24/12, 24/14, and 25/10...bit larger sample size than 3 games.

And people harp on it being the finals....watch those games. He was hardly 13 in 30 seconds Tmac. One of those big games his second field goal was a putback dunk to make it like a 25 point lead.

He played well in the final 3 games after I think 9 and 8 points the first two? He did what he had to do...played great D....and make his good lookss. But he wasnt what anyone would call dominating.

Hes been like a held down Shawn Marion. I like when he takes guards into the post...gets good position and calls for the ball. Quick on the turnaround like some of the 80s wings were. Good ability to fake the 3 and blow by. Hes a more skilled scorer than Marion was...dont get me wrong on that. But hes not exactly...just...better.

If someone is offended...give me a more appropriate player.

We have Horry(who had a similar or better 95 finals than Leonard had in 14...look into it..he had 11/10 with a playoff record 7 steals and 2 blocks in his worst game)....Derek Mckey...guys like that.

Leonard/Marion/Bobby Jones next notch up.

Whats the step up from that?

Worthy, Pippen, Paul Pierce, and Grant Hill? Something like that? We saying hes closer to that than Marion and Bobby Jones?

If so lets compromise....

Lets say he goes on to be Dave Debusschere. 8 time all star, 2 time champ, 6 time all D(would be more but they didnt have the all D team his whole career). Hall of fame. 50 greatest. Could shoot, rebound, and defend. Was one of the few player coaches. Widely respected in his day as one of the toughest players in the sport.

Am I just slapping Leonard in the face to say hes maybe the next Dave D?

Great....really great...but not...era defining?

Does he strike you as someone who is gonna come up quickly in a discussion of his eras elite players? I feel like Blake...might.

Granted a lot of that is defense not getting the love it should.

Im sure plenty of people would have taken Dave Debusschere over Elvin Hayes.

[BasedTom]

spurms bias from e!spn, what else is new

[All Net]

Wow kawhi getting mad overrated

Let's see if he can prove it

[feyki]

Its getting the feel of the time when people were saying Manu was better than Tmac and Kobe. Not quite the same level of "Wtf..."ness since Leonards defensive advantage means he probably is a better total player than Blake...

They just dont usually care to look at it that way.

If hes better than Shawn Marion is it like...by a lot? Marion was a notch behind as a defender....but just as versatile. He was guarding 2-5 Tmac and Yao...ive seen it). Top rebounder. Elite athlete. Big blocks and steals guy. 18-22ppg. More of a finisher but Leonard isnt just...creating that many shots himself. Id say hes currently the 3rd or 4th best straight up scorer on his team even if he leads it(you shouldnt need it explained how that happens). Leonard has a prettier shot bu Marion did at one point shoot 39% on 4.5 attempts a night so he could shoot...it just didnt look good.

They are at least...on a similar level right? Leonard if he got Shawns crazy minutes would do similar numbers I expect. Leonard doing 24 a game over 3 nights doesnt mean thats his likely night in night out performance on his own team. Marion in 06 without Amare did 3 months of 24/12, 24/14, and 25/10...bit larger sample size than 3 games.

And people harp on it being the finals....watch those games. He was hardly 13 in 30 seconds Tmac. One of those big games his second field goal was a putback dunk to make it like a 25 point lead.

He played well in the final 3 games after I think 9 and 8 points the first two? He did what he had to do...played great D....and make his good lookss. But he wasnt what anyone would call dominating.

Hes been like a held down Shawn Marion. I like when he takes guards into the post...gets good position and calls for the ball. Quick on the turnaround like some of the 80s wings were. Good ability to fake the 3 and blow by. Hes a more skilled scorer than Marion was...dont get me wrong on that. But hes not exactly...just...better.

If someone is offended...give me a more appropriate player.

We have Horry(who had a similar or better 95 finals than Leonard had in 14...look into it..he had 11/10 with a playoff record 7 steals and 2 blocks in his worst game)....Derek Mckey...guys like that.

Leonard/Marion/Bobby Jones next notch up.

Whats the step up from that?

Worthy, Pippen, Paul Pierce, and Grant Hill? Something like that? We saying hes closer to that than Marion and Bobby Jones?

If so lets compromise....

Lets say he goes on to be Dave Debusschere. 8 time all star, 2 time champ, 6 time all D(would be more but they didnt have the all D team his whole career). Hall of fame. 50 greatest. Could shoot, rebound, and defend. Was one of the few player coaches. Widely respected in his day as one of the toughest players in the sport.

Am I just slapping Leonard in the face to say hes maybe the next Dave D?

Great....really great...but not...era defining?

Does he strike you as someone who is gonna come up quickly in a discussion of his eras elite players? I feel like Blake...might.

Granted a lot of that is defense not getting the love it should.

Im sure plenty of people would have taken Dave Debusschere over Elvin Hayes.

Marion was great offensive player at his prime. Kawhi is different player to Marion .

[HurricaneKid]

Look, a thread in which IH neglects to recognize the importance of defense.

Shocking.

There isn't a person in this thread that could bring the ball up the court on Kawhi. He is, at the VERY LEAST, the best wing defender since Pippin.

[Kblaze8855]

that's a bit much. Nobody is at the very least superior to Bowen, Tony Allen, and prime Ron Artest.

Hes a great defender he's not a once every 30 years defender.

[#number6ix#]

Kwahi is a good player but he can't carry a team every night there for is not a top 10 player... I'll take jimmy butler over Kwahi right now

[Mass Debator]

Wished Kawhi left SA so he could be exposed. Great all-star caliber player, but not a #1 option. He's in the perfect situation for his abilities.

PG13 > Kawhi

[sd3035]

Leonard had the great fortune of being matched up with Lebald in the finals

[DMAVS41]

It depends on how you think about this.

If it's between Griffin and Leonard on a bad team that needs to be carried? The answer is of course Griffin.

But I'm not sure that is the best way to determine true value of a player.

Do we really want to put a lot of weight on how good guys would be on terrible teams? Not so sure.

I think it's far more interesting and far more reflective of what kind of player a guy is playing on a contending type team....or at least a team capable of winning around 50.

Is what Griffin gives the Clippers more valuable than what Leonard gives the Spurs? I really don't know...I'd tend to maybe value what Leonard brings in the playoffs more while valuing what Griffin brings in the regular season more.

He played pretty bad in those last 2 games, but the playoffs against the Clippers gave us a glimpse of just how productive Leonard could be while brining truly elite wing defense...

So, as always, it depends on what people value and what people are looking at. For me...I really only care about what I think is best suited to win games in the playoffs. So I rank Leonard pretty high...certainly higher than most. Outside of the top 4 guys or so....Leonard is right there for me.

[ArbitraryWater]

Wow kawhi getting mad overrated

Let's see if he can prove it

:oldlol: :facepalm

At least try to make an opinion like kblaze

[Tking714]

Its getting the feel of the time when people were saying Manu was better than Tmac and Kobe. Not quite the same level of "Wtf..."ness since Leonards defensive advantage means he probably is a better total player than Blake...

They just dont usually care to look at it that way.

If hes better than Shawn Marion is it like...by a lot? Marion was a notch behind as a defender....but just as versatile. He was guarding 2-5 Tmac and Yao...ive seen it). Top rebounder. Elite athlete. Big blocks and steals guy. 18-22ppg. More of a finisher but Leonard isnt just...creating that many shots himself. Id say hes currently the 3rd or 4th best straight up scorer on his team even if he leads it(you shouldnt need it explained how that happens). Leonard has a prettier shot bu Marion did at one point shoot 39% on 4.5 attempts a night so he could shoot...it just didnt look good.

They are at least...on a similar level right? Leonard if he got Shawns crazy minutes would do similar numbers I expect. Leonard doing 24 a game over 3 nights doesnt mean thats his likely night in night out performance on his own team. Marion in 06 without Amare did 3 months of 24/12, 24/14, and 25/10...bit larger sample size than 3 games.

And people harp on it being the finals....watch those games. He was hardly 13 in 30 seconds Tmac. One of those big games his second field goal was a putback dunk to make it like a 25 point lead.

He played well in the final 3 games after I think 9 and 8 points the first two? He did what he had to do...played great D....and make his good lookss. But he wasnt what anyone would call dominating.

Hes been like a held down Shawn Marion. I like when he takes guards into the post...gets good position and calls for the ball. Quick on the turnaround like some of the 80s wings were. Good ability to fake the 3 and blow by. Hes a more skilled scorer than Marion was...dont get me wrong on that. But hes not exactly...just...better.

If someone is offended...give me a more appropriate player.

We have Horry(who had a similar or better 95 finals than Leonard had in 14...look into it..he had 11/10 with a playoff record 7 steals and 2 blocks in his worst game)....Derek Mckey...guys like that.

Leonard/Marion/Bobby Jones next notch up.

Whats the step up from that?

Worthy, Pippen, Paul Pierce, and Grant Hill? Something like that? We saying hes closer to that than Marion and Bobby Jones?

If so lets compromise....

Lets say he goes on to be Dave Debusschere. 8 time all star, 2 time champ, 6 time all D(would be more but they didnt have the all D team his whole career). Hall of fame. 50 greatest. Could shoot, rebound, and defend. Was one of the few player coaches. Widely respected in his day as one of the toughest players in the sport.

Am I just slapping Leonard in the face to say hes maybe the next Dave D?

Great....really great...but not...era defining?

Does he strike you as someone who is gonna come up quickly in a discussion of his eras elite players? I feel like Blake...might.

Granted a lot of that is defense not getting the love it should.

Im sure plenty of people would have taken Dave Debusschere over Elvin Hayes.

I can agree with this. But Blake is neither on the level of Pierce, Pippen, Hill, Worthy. Not yet no. At most I'd say Kawhi and him are same tier and around Marion sounds exactly right.

[GabeIsGone]

:banana: Haters gonna hate. :banana:
http://memecrunch.com/meme/3TB1Q/kawhi-me-a-river/image.png

[dhsilv]

Look, a thread in which IH neglects to recognize the importance of defense.

Shocking.

There isn't a person in this thread that could bring the ball up the court on Kawhi. He is, at the VERY LEAST, the best wing defender since Pippin.

Tony Allen????

[dhsilv]

It depends on how you think about this.

If it's between Griffin and Leonard on a bad team that needs to be carried? The answer is of course Griffin.

But I'm not sure that is the best way to determine true value of a player.

Do we really want to put a lot of weight on how good guys would be on terrible teams? Not so sure.

I think it's far more interesting and far more reflective of what kind of player a guy is playing on a contending type team....or at least a team capable of winning around 50.

Is what Griffin gives the Clippers more valuable than what Leonard gives the Spurs? I really don't know...I'd tend to maybe value what Leonard brings in the playoffs more while valuing what Griffin brings in the regular season more.

He played pretty bad in those last 2 games, but the playoffs against the Clippers gave us a glimpse of just how productive Leonard could be while brining truly elite wing defense...

So, as always, it depends on what people value and what people are looking at. For me...I really only care about what I think is best suited to win games in the playoffs. So I rank Leonard pretty high...certainly higher than most. Outside of the top 4 guys or so....Leonard is right there for me.

Blake and it's not really close on who gives more based on history.

A vote for Leonard is that he's going to make a jump on the offensive end. He showed signs the second half of last year, but never really put it together. If he can legit add the ability to be a play maker and a go to scorer (even as a second option) then we have a conversation. It seems a LOT of people really truly believe he's going to be a 20 point a game scorer this year.

[rmt]

It depends on how you think about this.

If it's between Griffin and Leonard on a bad team that needs to be carried? The answer is of course Griffin.

But I'm not sure that is the best way to determine true value of a player.

Do we really want to put a lot of weight on how good guys would be on terrible teams? Not so sure.

I think it's far more interesting and far more reflective of what kind of player a guy is playing on a contending type team....or at least a team capable of winning around 50.

Is what Griffin gives the Clippers more valuable than what Leonard gives the Spurs? I really don't know...I'd tend to maybe value what Leonard brings in the playoffs more while valuing what Griffin brings in the regular season more.

He played pretty bad in those last 2 games, but the playoffs against the Clippers gave us a glimpse of just how productive Leonard could be while brining truly elite wing defense...

So, as always, it depends on what people value and what people are looking at. For me...I really only care about what I think is best suited to win games in the playoffs. So I rank Leonard pretty high...certainly higher than most. Outside of the top 4 guys or so....Leonard is right there for me.

It's hard to compare the value of two so very different players.

For Leonard, defense is such a large part of his value and against the Clippers, there really was no one for him to guard (and NO, he should not be defending Chris Paul - he's too large to defend him and is terrible going around screens. Danny Green was the correct defender). But in a series vs Lebron/Durant/Carmelo, he is invaluable - not many players can keep up with them.

On the offensive side, Leonard's been brought along slowly - he's nowhere near (on that end) the elite defender that he is. The potential is there but so far, that's all it is - potential - he hasn't proved that he can carry a team offensively for any stretch of time.

So, I would choose Blake who is proven (in the regular season). I was very impressed with both Blake and especially Paul. I didn't think they had what it takes to beat a veteran team like the Spurs. Paul was spectacular in that 7th game. Of course, if Pop had chosen to play Parker 10 minutes less and Mills 10 minutes more, things might have been different. I suspect he thought that they just didn't have it in them (too long a run - 2 Finals + RS) as evidenced by that last game of the season when they just couldn't muster a win for the #2 seed.