How Weak is This Era

[HighFlyer23]

In terms of stars and superstars?

[KNOW1EDGE]

2/5

[Fallen Angel]

2nd Greatest SF of All-Time in his prime
The Greatest PF of All-Time on the way out
2nd Greatest SG of All-Time on the way out
4th Greatest SG of All-Time on the way out
One of the Greatest Scorers of All-Time is in his prime and is paired with the one of the Most Ferocious PGs of All-Time
Greatest Shooting Backcourt of All-Time in their prime
Greatest Player of All-Time to never make the Conference Finals
Leading the 3rd Best Team in the League w/o an All-Star averaging 27/7/6 makes you a MVP Runner-Up

[imdaman99]

If you weren't an MJ fan, wouldn't you think the 90s were a weak era? How many all time great teams did the Bulls beat? The Pistons on their way down? Still, I miss the 90s Knicks :(

[raprap]

:facepalm

[Straight_Ballin]

When players like Tristain Thompson are max salary players, you know you have a weak era.

The supposed best player is covered by role players who win finals MVP and make the "best in the league" shoot just 29% outside the free throw line.

Weak laughable era.

[aj1987]

Another of these weak era threads?

Superstars: LeBron, KD, WB, CP3, Curry, AD, Blake, Harden, DMC, Melo, Dwight, and PG.

Fringe superstars: Love, Lillard, LMA, Irving, and Wall.

Elite level players: Wade, Klay, Gasol, Kawhi, Buckets, Rose, Bosh, DeAndre.

I'm pretty sure that I'm forgetting a bunch of others as well.



When players like Tristain Thompson are max salary players, you know you have a weak era.

The supposed best player is covered by role players who win finals MVP and make the "best in the league" shoot just 29% outside the free throw line.

Weak laughable era.
Why do you keep watching and melting down about the "laughable" era though? You should probably stick to watching and jerking off to MJ highlights.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Only thing missing today are Big Men... The game itself is played at a pretty high level, in my opinion.

[raprap]

Only thing missing today are Big Men... The game itself is played at a pretty high level, in my opinion.
Yep. Team basketball has been amazing for the past few years.

[Lebronxrings]

wish i had a time machine so i could place austin rivers 20 years back and make him MJs rival.

[SouBeachTalents]

wish i had a time machine so i could place austin rivers 20 years back and make him MJs rival.

You think that'd be able to match the LeBron/Iggy rivalry?

[poido123]

If you weren't an MJ fan, wouldn't you think the 90s were a weak era? How many all time great teams did the Bulls beat? The Pistons on their way down? Still, I miss the 90s Knicks :(


What? Plenty of good teams and definitely rivals as the deepest pool of talent the league has seen.


Many of which form the top 50 ever to play.

[poido123]

When players like Tristain Thompson are max salary players, you know you have a weak era.

The supposed best player is covered by role players who win finals MVP and make the "best in the league" shoot just 29% outside the free throw line.

Weak laughable era.



That rat poison.

How can you recover from a post like this? Can't believe someone is trying :roll: :roll:

[sd3035]

When players like Tristain Thompson are max salary players, you know you have a weak era.

The supposed best player is covered by role players who win finals MVP and make the "best in the league" shoot just 29% outside the free throw line.

Weak laughable era.


ouch, as a lebron fan, that truthful statement really stings

[DonDadda59]

wish i had a time machine so i could place austin rivers 20 years back and make him MJs rival.

Where are the FLOPS, Pauk? :rant

[Cold soul]

Yep. Team basketball has been amazing for the past few years.

No doubt it has best team basketball I have seen myself in long time.

[3ball]

No doubt it has best team basketball I have seen myself in long time.



I wouldn't overrate it - today's 3-point shooting and the resulting spacing allows better ball movement, whereas it's harder for ball movement to have an effect when there's no spacing like in previous eras.

Back when players were all bunched up and much closer together, it took more skill to make a nice passing, teamwork play.. Otoh, today's neatly spaced-out court makes ball movement it easier.


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-21-2015/BoJwNo.gif

[Gileraracer]

The so called best player in the world can't shoot the ball once he's more than 5ft away from the basket, has no footwork, travels and flops his way to the finals. So year, it's pretty weak.

[bdreason]

NBA has never been in better shape. I'm not a huge fan of the defensive rules that turn every teams offense into a clone of one another, and relegates bigs to shooting jumpers and playing high P&R... but everything else in the league is thriving.

[iamgine]

Well we can't make prediction for future stars (AD, Cousins, etc)

But in the past 10 years:

- Prime Duncan, Kobe, Lebron. That's 3 of top 10 GOAT arguably.
- Arguably greatest shooter ever in Curry
- Arguable Top 20 players ever in Garnett, Nowitzki, Wade.

So I think this era can stand toe to toe with any other.

[Soundwave]

I don't think any era has been "weak" since the Bad Boys Pistons.

They basically were the last true basketball revolution with their physical defensive tactics that changed the game and have led to the 90s Bulls D, which then led to the Riley 90s Knicks, which then led to Spurs/Pistons of the 2000s and the super low scoring of that era which leads right into today's game.

The Pistons basically ended the 70s/80s free wheeling all offence/all the time and created the concept of a championship team that was defence first.

The main area I would say today's game is weak is with big men. Definitely a huge drop in quality there though.

[3ball]

But in the past 10 years:

- Prime Duncan, Kobe, Lebron. That's 3 of top 10 GOAT arguably.
- Arguably greatest shooter ever in Curry
- Arguable Top 20 players ever in Garnett, Nowitzki, Wade.

So I think this era can stand toe to toe with any other.


You really want to put that up against the 80's or 90's?

80's: Magic, Bird, Jordan, Kareem are top 10... Dr. J, Moses, Isiah top 20

90's: Jordan, Hakeem are top 10.. Shaq, Robinson, Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Stockton top 20.

[StephHamann]

You really want to put that up against the 80's or 90's?

80's: Magic, Bird, Jordan, Kareem are top 10... Dr. J, Moses, Isiah top 20

90's: Jordan, Hakeem are top 10.. Shaq, Robinson, Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Stockton top 20.

Stockton and Ewing are not top 20, what are you smoking?

[dhsilv]

You really want to put that up against the 80's or 90's?

80's: Magic, Bird, Jordan, Kareem are top 10... Dr. J, Moses, Isiah top 20

90's: Jordan, Hakeem are top 10.. Shaq, Robinson, Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Stockton top 20.

Iffy on that hakeem top 10 comment, you're not calling shaq top 20 in 1999.

If we had 20 years back to look at this era, it would be a no brainer that this was a better time in basketball. There are more teams and the talent is deeper than ever. Benches more and more have absurd amounts of talent. Sadly I have a feeling t hings are TOO good and we'll be seeing more expansion to bring things back down to the 90's, hopefully we don't water it down to the 2000's though.

[Fallen Angel]

You really want to put that up against the 80's or 90's?

80's: Magic, Bird, Jordan, Kareem are top 10... Dr. J, Moses, Isiah top 20

90's: Jordan, Hakeem are top 10.. Shaq, Robinson, Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Stockton top 20.
Kareem averaged 20/7/2 in the 80's, which was probably the peak time of offensive freedom. Dr. J was always a negative impact player during the 80's when you look at RAPM.

Just from the last decade:

Lebron- Top 2 SF of All-Time
Duncan- Greatest PF of All-Time
Kobe- Top 2 SG of All-Time
Wade- Top 4 SG of All-Time
CP3- Top 50 Player of All-Time
Durant- Top 50 Player of All-Time
Nash- Top 50 Player of All-Time
Kidd- Top 50 Player of All-Time
Pierce- Top 50 Player of All-Time
Allen- Top 50 Player of All-Time
Howard- All-Time Great Rim Protector
Nowitzki- 7th All-Time in Career Points
Garnett- All-Time Great Defender

Then you get to Tier 2/Young Stars like: Chris Bosh, Pau Gasol, Russell Westbrook, James Harden, Derrick Rose, Blake Griffin, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Tracy McGrady, Yao Ming, Amare Stoudimire, Lamarcus Aldridge, Anthony Davis, Allen Iverson, John Wall, Stephen Curry, Carmelo Anthony, Rajon Rondo, and Vince Carter.

[jayfan]

You really want to put that up against the 80's or 90's?

80's: Magic, Bird, Jordan, Kareem are top 10... Dr. J, Moses, Isiah top 20

90's: Jordan, Hakeem are top 10.. Shaq, Robinson, Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Stockton top 20.

Isiah top 20 in the 80's? He's definitely top 10. Maybe top 5.






.

[90sgoat]

Stockton and Ewing are not top 20, what are you smoking?

The all time leader in assists and steals is not top 20, the Dream Team member Stockton? Not to mention those stats likely won't be broken for a very long time, maybe never.

This era is the weakest I have ever seen that is for sure, though the early 00s come close.

This era only has Karl Malone = Lebron, no Bird, Magic, Wilt, MJ, Kareem etc.

Only Karl Malone.

Wow!:lol

[3ball]

Iffy on that hakeem top 10 comment, you're not calling shaq top 20 in 1999.


A previous poster said Duncan is top 10 - that's iffy... He also said Lebron is top 10... That's ridiculous.

Also, Shaq was voted top 50 in 1996, so I'm very comfortable putting him at top 20 in 1999.





There are more teams and the talent is deeper than ever. Benches more and more have absurd amounts of talent.


You just didn't watch in the 80's or 90's, so you're not familiar with the middle-class of players, which was far deeper back then.

Scorers had a wider range of skill back then.. Otoh, other than 3-point shooting, today's spacing has reduced the skill today's players need to acquire, so today's middle-class is filled with 3-and-D robots - guys like Danny Green and Morrow who wouldn't make the league back in 1985 or 1995.

[dhsilv]

Kareem averaged 20/7/2 in the 80's, which was probably the peak time of offensive freedom. Dr. J was always a negative impact player during the 80's when you look at RAPM.

Just from the last decade:

Lebron- Top 2 SF of All-Time
Duncan- Greatest PF of All-Time
Kobe- Top 2 SG of All-Time
Wade- Top 4 SG of All-Time
CP3- Top 50 Player of All-Time
Durant- Top 50 Player of All-Time
Nash- Top 50 Player of All-Time
Kidd- Top 50 Player of All-Time
Pierce- Top 50 Player of All-Time
Allen- Top 50 Player of All-Time
Howard- All-Time Great Rim Protector
Nowitzki- 7th All-Time in Career Points
Garnett- All-Time Great Defender

Then you get to Tier 2/Young Stars like: Chris Bosh, Pau Gasol, Russell Westbrook, James Harden, Derrick Rose, Blake Griffin, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Tracy McGrady, Yao Ming, Amare Stoudimire, Lamarcus Aldridge, Anthony Davis, Allen Iverson, John Wall, Stephen Curry, Carmelo Anthony, Rajon Rondo, and Vince Carter.

You're kinda merging the 00's and 10's and using a few guys who were already allstars in the 90's (and I"m not talking 99). Just pointing out that it's hard to look at an era in the middle of it, and to be honest this decade is going to be seen as vastly better than the 00's assuming we don't get expansion.

[dhsilv]

A previous poster said Duncan is top 10 - that's iffy... He also said Lebron is top 10... That's ridiculous.

Also, Shaq was voted top 50 in 1996, so I'm very comfortable putting him at top 20 in 1999.



You just didn't watch in the 80's or 90's, so you're not familiar with the middle-class of players, which was far deeper back then.

Scorers had a wider range of skill back then.. Otoh, other than 3-point shooting, today's spacing has reduced the skill today's players need to acquire, so today's middle-class is filled with 3-and-D robots - guys like Danny Green and Morrow who wouldn't make the league back in 1985 or 1995.

The gap between top 50 and 20 especially 20 years ago is HUGE.

There is no debate by anyone I've seen ANYWHERE on Duncan's place in the top 10. The idea that Lebron isn't top 10 while an open debate is flipping absurd. I truly struggle to even watch him play, he defines boring, unimaginative, and a generally can't stand his personality, but not top 10? That's impossible to argue with a straight face.

I've seen plent of 90's basketball and a good bit of 80's. The league right now is very much like the 80's which was MUCH deeper per team than the 90's which got crippled imo by expansion. However I think you perhaps made a perfect case for this era.

Guys like Green are what make today's game better. We have specialists! Until you have that in sports, you're generally watching a sport that isn't very mature and is generally lacking in depth. When you have a league of generalists, you can move pieces around easier but the final product is simply not as good.

[Fallen Angel]

It's not fair to compare a half of a decade to whole decades.

[feyki]

Superstars and super teams.

[90sgoat]

Guys like Green are what make today's game better. We have specialists!

Specialists =| One dimensional role players.

Danny Green is not more of a specialist than Steve Kerr.

Where is the Rodman or Mutombos of this era?

Where is a 5'3'' point guard who is so good at passing he can he offset his lack of height?

Where is the tough, hardcore garbage man power forward like Dale Davis who rebounds, blocks out and block shots?

Where is the 7'6'' block shotting monster who is not even the tallest in the league?

Which specialists in this era? The only one is the cookie cutter 3 point shooter. Such a poor era of no diversity. Every game looks exactly the same. High pick and roll, penetrate, kick to 3. Over and over and over.

And by the way, as far as 3 point specialists go, the 90s had Chris Mullin, Reggie Miller, Dale Ellis, Glen Rice, Michael Finley, Dell Curry, Sam Perkins and many more, you just don't know them because you didn't watch them.

[KevinNYC]

If you weren't an MJ fan, wouldn't you think the 90s were a weak era?

They were.

[KevinNYC]

No doubt it has best team basketball I have seen myself in long time.

Some really nice stuff. That Spurs team that Oklahoma came back on, was really amazing and they went out early.

[3ball]

Just from the last decade:

Lebron
Duncan
Kobe
Wade
CP3
Durant
Nash
Pierce
Allen
Howard
Nowitzki
Garnett

Then you get to Tier 2/Young Stars like: Chris Bosh, Pau Gasol, Russell Westbrook, James Harden, Derrick Rose, Blake Griffin, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Tracy McGrady, Yao Ming, Amare Stoudimire, Lamarcus Aldridge, Anthony Davis, Allen Iverson, John Wall, Stephen Curry, Carmelo Anthony, Rajon Rondo, and Vince Carter.


2010's........... 1990's

Lebron.......... Jordan
Duncan......... Hakeem
Kobe............ Shaq
Wade............ Drexler
CP3.............. Payton
Durant......... Karl Malone
Nash............. Stockton
Kidd.............. Penny
Pierce........... Grant Hill
Allen............. R Miller
Howard.......... Mourning
Nowitzki......... Pippen
Garnett.......... D Robinson


Plus tier 2: Kevin Johnson, Mitch Richmond, Tim Hardaway, Latrell Sprewell, Chris Mullin, Vin Baker, Derrick Coleman, Chris Webber, Rod Strickland, Dikembe Mutombo, Terry Porter, Shawn Kemp


2010's........... 1980's

Lebron.......... Magic
Duncan......... Moses Malone
Kobe............ Bird
Wade.......... Barkely
CP3.............. Isiah
Durant.......... Dominique
Nash............ Stockton
Kidd............. Worthy
Pierce.......... King
Allen............ Dumars
Howard......... Ewing
Nowitzki.........McHale
Garnett.......... Kareem


Sidney Moncrief, Adrian Dantley, Alvin Robertson, Ronaldo Blackman, Ralph Sampson, Dr. J, Alex English, Fat Lever, Dennis Johnson, Artis Gilmore, Brad Daughtery

[3ball]

Shaq was voted top 50 in 1996, but the gap between top 50 and 20 is HUGE.


Who said Shaq was #50??... Shaq was ahead of Walton, Parish and others... The only reason you'd automatically assume Shaq was #50 is because you're biased.





Lebron defines boring, unimaginative, and a generally can't stand his personality, but not top 10? But it's impossible to argue Lebron isn't top 10 with a straight face.


He's 2/6 in the Finals - that's 2/6 against the West - so he only makes 2 Finals in his entire career in the West - that's why actually WINNING the Finals is important, because it proves you would've made the Finals in the other conference.





the 90's which got crippled imo by expansion.


There are 30 teams now, just like the 90's, so it's no different - the top 450 players make the league just like before.

Unfortunately, many fans think that when expansion happened in the 90's, the NBA started picking up bums up off the street... That's ignorant... They started sourcing more from overseas and the CBA/USBL - up until 2001, the NBA's official developmental league was the CBA (the NBA formed the D-league in 2001, which replaced the CBA as the NBA's official feeder system).

So don't be dumb and think that the NBA started picking up bums off the street - all the new players were PROFESSIONALS, just like they are today.





Guys like Green are what make today's game better. We have specialists!


Previous eras had specialists too, but they had a wider range of specialists - there were post players, midrange shooters and off-ball specialists... Not just 3-point specialists.. :rolleyes:
.

[Jameerthefear]

2010's........... 1990's

Lebron.......... Jordan
Duncan......... Hakeem
Kobe............ Shaq
Wade............ Drexler
CP3.............. Payton
Durant......... Karl Malone
Nash............. Stockton
Kidd.............. Penny
Pierce........... Grant Hill
Allen............. R Miller
Howard.......... Mourning
Nowitzki......... Pippen
Garnett.......... D Robinson


Plus tier 2: Kevin Johnson, Mitch Richmond, Tim Hardaway, Latrell Sprewell, Chris Mullin, Vin Baker, Derrick Coleman, Chris Webber, Rod Strickland, Dikembe Mutombo, Terry Porter, Shawn Kemp


2010's........... 1980's

Lebron.......... Magic
Duncan......... Moses Malone
Kobe............ Bird
Wade.......... Barkely
CP3.............. Isiah
Durant.......... Dominique
Nash............ Stockton
Kidd............. Worthy
Pierce.......... King
Allen............ Dumars
Howard......... Ewing
Nowitzki.........McHale
Garnett.......... Kareem


Sidney Moncrief, Adrian Dantley, Alvin Robertson, Ronaldo Blackman, Ralph Sampson, Dr. J, Alex English, Fat Lever, Dennis Johnson, Artis Gilmore, Brad Daughtery
2010 is arguably better... especially if you put Shaq on the 10's

[3ball]

2010 is arguably better... especially if you put Shaq on the 10's
the only matchup i like for 2010 is nowitski > pippen... maybe wade > drexler.. that's about it... 1990's wins everything else.

also, shaq can't be in 2010's because he wasn't shit in the 2010's - he averaged like 11 ppg... whereas he was a beast all 8 years he played in the 90's.

[BoutPractice]

2008-2013 was a very strong half decade for the NBA as a whole. Superteams helped, especially the fact that they were in the East.

Overall I'd say it was stronger than 2003-2008, and most likely stronger than 1998-2003 as well (the West was something else but even the best of the East sucked).

The two past years in comparison have been a bit underwhelming... you can see this is something of a transition period, where one of the great generations is dying, another is starting its decline, and the latest one hasn't fully arrived yet.

[Jameerthefear]

the only matchup i like for 2010 is nowitski > pippen... maybe wade > drexler.. that's about it... 1990's wins everything else.

also, shaq can't be in 2010's because he wasn't shit in the 2010's - he averaged like 11 ppg... whereas he was a beast all 8 years he played in the 90's.
what? are you talking about players drafted in the 90's? Kobe, Shaq, Garnett and others best years were in the 2000s

Not to mention you're comparing some full careers to guys who aren't done yet like durant. and we're only 1/2 way through the 2010s...

Duncan > Hakeem
Wade > Drexler
CP3 = Payton (I'll give u this one, but it's arguable)
Durant will probably be > Malone
Nash = Stockton
Allen > Reggie Miller
Howard > Mourning
Dirk > Pippen
Garnett > D-Rob (arguable)

[Dbrog]

It's most certainly a weak era IMO. Reminds me a lot of the mid-late 70s where you just never knew who would win each year cause there weren't standouts. I mean, we have oldmen legends dominating their successors right now which is just sad. I'm not saying it doesn't make for exciting basketball though. As others have said, team ball is great right now. Interior defense is definitely poor compared to the 2000s but this is likely due to the lack of quality bigs in the league now. Perimeter play is probably at an alltime high though. The amount of elite guards is pretty staggering.

[iamgine]

You really want to put that up against the 80's or 90's?

80's: Magic, Bird, Jordan, Kareem are top 10... Dr. J, Moses, Isiah top 20

90's: Jordan, Hakeem are top 10.. Shaq, Robinson, Malone, Barkley top 20.
Well lets see:

00's: Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Lebron top 10.. KG, Nowitzki top 20.

As I said, toe to toe.

[Hey Yo]

the only matchup i like for 2010 is nowitski > pippen... maybe wade > drexler.. that's about it... 1990's wins everything else.

also, shaq can't be in 2010's because he wasn't shit in the 2010's - he averaged like 11 ppg... whereas he was a beast all 8 years he played in the 90's.
Yet..... in the past when you've listed the great help LeBron had on the 2009-10 Cavs team, Shaq is always listed.

[20Four]

what? are you talking about players drafted in the 90's? Kobe, Shaq, Garnett and others best years were in the 2000s

Not to mention you're comparing some full careers to guys who aren't done yet like durant. and we're only 1/2 way through the 2010s...

Duncan > Hakeem
Wade > Drexler
CP3 = Payton (I'll give u this one, but it's arguable)
Durant will probably be > Malone
Nash = Stockton
Allen > Reggie Miller
Howard > Mourning
Dirk > Pippen
Garnett > D-Rob (arguable)

:roll: :roll:

[Showtime80']

Simple reason why the league sucks today aside from the gimmicky 3-point or bust soft offenses that permeate the league in that there NO RIVALRIES!!!

Like Kevin McHale said one time "the game was at its best when we all hated each other

The 80's had a perfect blend of superstars, second tear stars, style of play, all time stacked teams and RIVALRIES!!! That can't be matched by ANY other time period in NBA history! Without rivalries you have what the other poster said, the 1970's with ho hum teams taking turns at the title with no real memorable effect after the fact!

The 90's were weak because it was basically the 80's guys kicking the crap out of the new school generation who didn't step up to the plate to meet the talent fundamentals or general basketball acumen to meet the challenge! Shaq, Penny, Payton, Garnett, Iverson, Mourning, Kemp, Kobe all took turns bending over and letting the OLDER 80's players CLOBBER THEM!!! Go watch the 1997 and 1998 Lakers Jazz playoff matchups for an example of this and see and old core of Malone, Stockton and Hornacek SCHOOL athletic monsters like Eddie Jones, Van Exel, Kobe and Shaq! DESTRUCTION!

The 80's produced the greatest generation of players that DOMINATED THE league for 20 years. No other generation can claim that!

[Hey Yo]

Simple reason why the league sucks today aside from the gimmicky 3-point or bust soft offenses that permeate the league in that there NO RIVALRIES!!!

Like Kevin McHale said one time "the game was at its best when we all hated each other

The 80's had a perfect blend of superstars, second tear stars, style of play, all time stacked teams and RIVALRIES!!! That can't be matched by ANY other time period in NBA history! Without rivalries you have what the other poster said, the 1970's with ho hum teams taking turns at the title with no real memorable effect after the fact!

The 90's were weak because it was basically the 80's guys kicking the crap out of the new school generation who didn't step up to the plate to meet the talent fundamentals or general basketball acumen to meet the challenge! Shaq, Penny, Payton, Garnett, Iverson, Mourning, Kemp, Kobe all took turns bending over and letting the OLDER 80's players CLOBBER THEM!!! Go watch the 1997 and 1998 Lakers Jazz playoff matchups for an example of this and see and old core of Malone, Stockton and Hornacek SCHOOL athletic monsters like Eddie Jones, Van Exel, Kobe and Shaq! DESTRUCTION!

The 80's produced the greatest generation of players that DOMINATED THE league for 20 years. No other generation can claim that!
Free Agency is the reason why there are less rivalries today compared to the 80's. Back then...the name on the front of the jersey is what players hated. To where now it's more about the name on the back and a few superstars playing H2H trying to better the other.

[BoutPractice]

It's logical, and almost expected, for players drafted in a particular decade to dominate the next one.

Nothing special about the 80s here. For example, every title team in the 00s but one was led by a 90s draftee... meanwhile LeBron only started winning titles in the 10s.

[Showtime80']

BS!!! The 90's guys didn't do crap in the decade they were drafted!!!

The 80's guys pushed aside the 70's superstars in their decade and then took turns sodomizing the 90's generation as well!! With Jordan, Stockton, Malone, Hakeem, Drexler, Robinson, Barkley, Pippen, Rodman, Ewing, Reggie etc... If Magic and Bird had been healthy they would've crapped on them too!

Shaq who was the greatest dominant force the league has seen, even while having GREAT TEAMS himself got CLOBBERED by Hakeem, Drexler, Stockton, Malone, Jordan and Pippen in FOUR SUCCESSIVE YEARS to the tune of 1-16!!!! In the playoffs!!!!

The 80's collection of players were they greatest of all time. The current crop of posers aren't even the third or fourth best. Sorry for the people that have to live through it!

[BoutPractice]

Although we're getting slightly pedantic here, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Julius Erving, Moses Malone, and of course Kareem all come from the 1970s.

So in effect, 80s players dominated the 90s (well, mostly Jordan), and 70s players the 80s.

[Sarcastic]

Only thing missing today are Big Men... The game itself is played at a pretty high level, in my opinion.

That's a pretty big thing to be missing.

[Showtime80']

Magic and Larry's rookie season was the 1980 Season my friend, they didn't play one single season in the 1970's! I'll give you Doc and Moses but in the end they got thee clocks cleaned by Magic and Larry more times than the other way around!

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

That's a pretty big thing to be missing.

Yes, if you actually took that in a literal sense.

[3ball]

Yet..... in the past when you've listed the great help LeBron had on the 2009-10 Cavs team, Shaq is always listed.


Because I'm comparing Lebron's supporting cast to MJ's in 1989 - Cartwright and Shaq were both 4th options:

4TH OPTION

Shaquille O'Neal: 12/7 on 57%.. 1.2 blk
Bill Cartwright:... 12/7 on 48%.. 0.5 blk


3RD OPTION:

All-Star Mo Williams:... 16/3/5 on 44%,
2nd Year Horace Grant: 12/9/2 on 51%


2ND OPTION

Veteran Antawn Jamison: 16/8/2 on 49%
2nd Year Scottie Pippen:. 14/6/4 on 48%


So Lebron's 2010 Cavs had the advantage at the 2nd thru 4th options, and also every other spot:

Varejao 9/8 vs. Craig Hodges 10/3
Delonte 9/4 vs. Sam Vincent 9/5

Hickson (9/5), Zydrunas (7/5), Parker (7/3)......... Paxson (7/3), Sellers (6/3)


The Bulls weaker cast is part of the reason MJ's 32.5/8.0/8.0 on 54% only garnered 47 wins in 1989, while Lebron's inferior 29.7/7.3/8.6 on 50% got the Cavs 61 wins in 2010... MJ faced superior competition as well, which was also huge factor.
.

[dh144498]

Because I'm comparing Lebron's supporting cast to MJ's in 1989 - Cartwright and Shaq were both 4th options:

4TH OPTION

Shaquille O'Neal: 12/7 on 57%.. 1.2 blk
Bill Cartwright:... 12/7 on 48%.. 0.5 blk


3RD OPTION:

All-Star Mo Williams:... 16/3/5 on 44%,
2nd Year Horace Grant: 12/9/2 on 51%


2ND OPTION

Veteran Antawn Jamison: 16/8/2 on 49%
2nd Year Scottie Pippen:. 14/6/4 on 48%


So Lebron's 2010 Cavs had the advantage at the 2nd thru 4th options, and also every other spot:

Varejao 9/8 vs. Craig Hodges 10/3
Delonte 9/4 vs. Sam Vincent 9/5

Hickson (9/5), Zydrunas (7/5), Parker (7/3)......... Paxson (7/3), Sellers (6/3)


The Bulls weaker cast is part of the reason MJ's 32.5/8.0/8.0 on 54% only garnered 47 wins in 1989, while Lebron's inferior 29.7/7.3/8.6 on 50% got the Cavs 61 wins in 2010... MJ faced superior competition as well, which was also huge factor.
.


let's not forget pace and possessions
:no:

lebron's 2010 per 100 possessions:
40-10-11.5

MJ's 1989 per 100 possessions:
40-10-10

they have very similar stats.
MJ's slightly more valuable than Lebron that year but it's very close.

[aj1987]

BS!!! The 90's guys didn't do crap in the decade they were drafted!!!

The 80's guys pushed aside the 70's superstars in their decade and then took turns sodomizing the 90's generation as well!! With Jordan, Stockton, Malone, Hakeem, Drexler, Robinson, Barkley, Pippen, Rodman, Ewing, Reggie etc... If Magic and Bird had been healthy they would've crapped on them too!

Shaq who was the greatest dominant force the league has seen, even while having GREAT TEAMS himself got CLOBBERED by Hakeem, Drexler, Stockton, Malone, Jordan and Pippen in FOUR SUCCESSIVE YEARS to the tune of 1-16!!!! In the playoffs!!!!

The 80's collection of players were they greatest of all time. The current crop of posers aren't even the third or fourth best. Sorry for the people that have to live through it!
http://i.imgur.com/4GxOc4V.jpg

[3ball]

let's not forget pace and possessions
:no:

lebron's 2010 per 100 possessions:
40-10-11.5

MJ's 1989 per 100 possessions:
40-10-10

they have very similar stats.
MJ's slightly more valuable than Lebron that year but it's very close.
Right, but the point is that Lebron won 19 and 14 more games in 2009 and 2010 despite putting up the same stats.

Lebron's higher win total despite having the same stats is explained by him having a superior supporting cast and playing far weaker competition.

[dh144498]

Right, but the point is that Lebron won 19 and 14 more games in 2009 and 2010 despite putting up the same stats.

Lebron's higher win total despite having the same stats is explained by him having a superior supporting cast and playing far weaker competition.

i agree with the weaker competition, but his supporting cast ain't that much better, certainly not enough to win 14-19 more games. Weaker competition? yeah for sure.

[MEB2kDeez]

Free Agency is the reason why there are less rivalries today compared to the 80's. Back then...the name on the front of the jersey is what players hated. To where now it's more about the name on the back and a few superstars playing H2H trying to better the other.
Preach, players have freedom with FA, so they think hell why feud when we can potentially team up, get rings, and win lol.

Times are just different now too, even though I'd enjoy rivalries.

[Sarcastic]

i agree with the weaker competition, but his supporting cast ain't that much better, certainly not enough to win 14-19 more games. Weaker competition? yeah for sure.


Well Jordan had more win shares and a higher VORP, so those wins had to come from someone.

[GimmeThat]

even if I wrote out every single player's ranking, by position and over all on a yearly basis. all while factoring in players from previous eras to note out each gap and provide the formula on how each and every player may team up together in order to oust their competition.

people will still watch basketball and call it a good product.


some may attribute it to the teamwork aspect
even combine it with skills to diversify the elements

but it's really just the repetition of combustion with selected elements
with containment, of the discovery of contaminant, and necessary forms

'the state of matter'

[3ball]

i agree Lebron faced weaker competition




And keep in mind that Lebron's competition in the 2010 East was the same as 2007 East - both years were far weaker than what MJ faced in 1989 - here's a comparison of MJ's 1989 vs Lebron's 2007:


Bigger Overachievement: Jordan's 1989 Playoff Run vs. Lebron's 2007


Jordan's Bulls were 47-25 and the 6 seed.
Lebron's Cavs were 50-32 and the 2 seed.


1st Round Jordan: CLE...(#3 seed, 57-25, #2 ranked defense... 40.0.. 6.0.. 8.1.. 51.8% FG)
1st Round Lebron: WSH (#7 seed, 41-41, #28 ranked defense.. 27.0.. 8.5.. 7.5.. 42.5% FG)

2nd Round Jordan: NYK (#2 seed, 52-30, #10 ranked defense... 35.5.. 9.5.. 8.3.. 55.0% FG)
2nd Round Lebron: NJN (#6 seed, 41-41, #15 ranked defense... 24.7.. 7.3.. 8.5.. 42.3% FG)

Conf. Finals Jordan: DET (#1 seed, 62-30, #3 ranked defense... 30.0.. 5.5.. 6.5.. 46.0% FG)
Conf. Finals Lebron: DET (#1 seed, 53-29, #7 ranked defense... 25.7.. 9.1.. 8.5.. 44.9% FG)


NO COMPARISON..

[Bankaii]

MJ faced weaker competition.

[3ball]

MJ faced weaker competition.



Factually false, as verified by ESPN (your god):


https://a.thumbs.redditmedia.com/9lezeXPnksBqScKND55F1Ewuenk1HdMDpsFC_vpawj8.jpg

[Bankaii]

Factually false, as verified by ESPN (your god):


https://a.thumbs.redditmedia.com/9lezeXPnksBqScKND55F1Ewuenk1HdMDpsFC_vpawj8.jpg
Haven't watched ESPN in years dumbass. Funny how you call them my god then use their stats.

But from this I see Kove faced harder competition. Kobe>Jordan.
Thanks 3Ball.

[dhsilv]

Specialists =| One dimensional role players.

Danny Green is not more of a specialist than Steve Kerr.

Where is the Rodman or Mutombos of this era?

Where is a 5'3'' point guard who is so good at passing he can he offset his lack of height?

Where is the tough, hardcore garbage man power forward like Dale Davis who rebounds, blocks out and block shots?

Where is the 7'6'' block shotting monster who is not even the tallest in the league?

Which specialists in this era? The only one is the cookie cutter 3 point shooter. Such a poor era of no diversity. Every game looks exactly the same. High pick and roll, penetrate, kick to 3. Over and over and over.

And by the way, as far as 3 point specialists go, the 90s had Chris Mullin, Reggie Miller, Dale Ellis, Glen Rice, Michael Finley, Dell Curry, Sam Perkins and many more, you just don't know them because you didn't watch them.


:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :hammerhead: :hammerhead: :hammerhead:

Yeah...cause I'm 12 and never saw or heard of freaking Reggie Miller. You seriously just have to be kidding me already. Go watch a Memphis game and see about all that 3 point shooting....

[dhsilv]

Who said Shaq was #50??... Shaq was ahead of Walton, Parish and others... The only reason you'd automatically assume Shaq was #50 is because you're biased.



He's 2/6 in the Finals - that's 2/6 against the West - so he only makes 2 Finals in his entire career in the West - that's why actually WINNING the Finals is important, because it proves you would've made the Finals in the other conference.



There are 30 teams now, just like the 90's, so it's no different - the top 450 players make the league just like before.

Unfortunately, many fans think that when expansion happened in the 90's, the NBA started picking up bums up off the street... That's ignorant... They started sourcing more from overseas and the CBA/USBL - up until 2001, the NBA's official developmental league was the CBA (the NBA formed the D-league in 2001, which replaced the CBA as the NBA's official feeder system).

So don't be dumb and think that the NBA started picking up bums off the street - all the new players were PROFESSIONALS, just like they are today.



Previous eras had specialists too, but they had a wider range of specialists - there were post players, midrange shooters and off-ball specialists... Not just 3-point specialists.. :rolleyes:
.

The top 50 list that the nba put out did not rank players. Thus we conclude all players were ranked 50th for our purposes. Bias has nothing to do with anything about that one. Given his career to that point, it was CLEAR he was a forecasted player or a last man in.

Lebron has two titles, bird has what 3? Wilt has 2. West has how many? Moses? Oscar? Hakeem? The ring argument might be fun to use if we're talking MJ vs. Lebron, but it doesn't pass the rest when we're talking top 10 and all of these guys who people make claim to being top 10 are basically in the same group as Lebron.

As for expansion the big moves STARTED in the late 80's where the league in 88 and 89 added 4 additional teams. Then added 2 more teams right before Jordan's return, a total of 6 new teams.

We went from 23 teams at the start of the 80's (mavs were an 80 addition so 22 at the end of the 70's) and by 96 we have 29. That is more than a 25% growth in teams.

It takes time for expansion teams to grow and develop and for the nba to bring in pro level talent. It doesn't just happen the next day, thus it watered the game down. The game has more than fully recovered, but it wasn't over night.

[aj1987]

He's 2/6 in the Finals - that's 2/6 against the West - so he only makes 2 Finals in his entire career in the West - that's why actually WINNING the Finals is important, because it proves you would've made the Finals in the other conference.
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

According to your "logic", Malone would never make a Finals in the East, Ewing wouldn't make the Finals in the West, KD wouldn't make the Finals in the East, Miller wouldn't make the Finals in the West, etc..

:facepalm

[3ball]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

According to your "logic", Malone would never make a Finals in the East, Ewing wouldn't make the Finals in the West, KD wouldn't make the Finals in the East, Miller wouldn't make the Finals in the West, etc..

:facepalm
That's right... You got it... The nba champion is the Finals representative in their conference, which precludes the losing Finals team from making the Finals if they had been in that conference.. how would the Jazz win the East in 1997 and 1998 with the Bulls in their conference?

Again, that's why merely making the Finals means nothing - everyone knows the Finals loser wouldn't make the Finals if they were in the other conference - the NBA champion is the team that makes the Finals in their conference.
.

[aj1987]

That's right... You got it... The nba champion is the Finals representative in their conference, which precludes losing Finals teams from making the Finals if they had been in the other conference.

Again, that's why merely making the Finals means nothing - everyone knows the Finals loser wouldn't make the Finals if they were in the other conference - the NBA champion is the team that makes the Finals in their conference.
:facepalm :facepalm

Why do I even bother?

[Papaya Petee]

:facepalm :facepalm

Why do I even bother?
I don't understand why you guys reply to that idiot.


Thats the worst ****ing logic I have EVER seen in my life.

[3ball]

I don't understand why you guys reply to that idiot.


Thats the worst ****ing logic I have EVER seen in my life.
What's wrong with it - how can a losing Finals team make the Finals in the other conference?

[aj1987]

What's wrong with it - how can a losing Finals team make the Finals in the other conference?
I'll try one last time... sigh!

You just can't take and EC team and put it in the WC. 12 of the 15 All-NBA players this past season were from the WC. 8 of the 10 All-Defensive players were from the WC as well. There's a talent disparity between the EC and WC. If an EC superstar goes to the WC, he's gonna be on one of the stacked AF WC teams.

Imagine LeBron on the Spurs, Warriors, Clippers, or the Rockets. All 4 teams are super stacked and 2 of them have ELITE coaches.

[3ball]

I'll try one last time... sigh!

You just can't take and EC team and put it in the WC. 12 of the 15 All-NBA players this past season were from the WC. 8 of the 10 All-Defensive players were from the WC as well. There's a talent disparity between the EC and WC. If an EC superstar goes to the WC, he's gonna be on one of the stacked AF WC teams.

Imagine LeBron on the Spurs, Warriors, Clippers, or the Rockets. All 4 teams are super stacked and 2 of them have ELITE coaches.
We're not talking about Lebron individually being in the West - we're talking about this TEAM not making the Finals if they were in the West - if all of Lebron's TEAMS had been in the West, Lebron would've only made 2 Finals in his entire career - 2012 and 2013 with his Heat super-teams.

Regarding him individually - i agree - he would run to the most stacked squad in the West, but his ball-dominant style would still crater his teammates' APG and assist % (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841) and the team's assist frequency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446)..

The lower assist capacity of the team would lead to the same predictability and resulting underachievement we're accustomed to from Lebron's teams.. His teams always look great on paper, but it never plays out as well as expected - the suboptimal chemistry fostered by Lebron's ball-dominance prevents the team from playing equal opportunity and the best brand of basketball, which allows equal or less-talented opponents to pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

[aj1987]

We're not talking about Lebron individually being in the West - we're talking about this TEAM not making the Finals if they were in the West - if all of Lebron's TEAMS had been in the West, Lebron would've only made 2 Finals in his entire career - 2012 and 2013 with his Heat super-teams.

Just no, you ****ing dense mother****er. He would be on a talented team. Once again, I'll post it and change it slightly for your retarded cherrypicking ass:

You just can't take an EC team and put it in the WC. 12 of the 15 All-NBA players this past season were from the WC. 8 of the 10 All-Defensive players were from the WC as well. There's a talent disparity between the EC and WC. If an EC superstar goes to the WC, he's gonna be on one of the stacked AF WC teams. You just can't MOVE teams like that. Teams are built for matchups in their respective conferences and teams usually worry about the FIRST 3 rounds, more than the Finals.

Imagine LeBron on the Spurs, Warriors, Clippers, or the Rockets. All 4 teams are super stacked and 2 of them have ELITE coaches.


Regarding him individually - i agree - he would run to the most stacked squad in the West, but his ball-dominant style would still crater his teammates' APG and assist % (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841) and the team's assist frequency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446)..

The lower assist capacity of the team would lead to the same predictability and resulting underachievement we're accustomed to from Lebron's teams.. His teams always look great on paper, but it never plays out as well as expected - the suboptimal chemistry fostered by Lebron's ball-dominance prevents the team from playing equal opportunity and the best brand of basketball, which allows equal or less-talented opponents to pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).
How did MJ ball do before the emergence of Pippen? Not even one Finals.

[dhsilv]

Just no, you ****ing dense mother****er. He would be on a talented team. Once again, I'll post it and change it slightly for your retarded cherrypicking ass:

You just can't take an EC team and put it in the WC. 12 of the 15 All-NBA players this past season were from the WC. 8 of the 10 All-Defensive players were from the WC as well. There's a talent disparity between the EC and WC. If an EC superstar goes to the WC, he's gonna be on one of the stacked AF WC teams. You just can't MOVE teams like that. Teams are built for matchups in their respective conferences and teams usually worry about the FIRST 3 rounds, more than the Finals.

Imagine LeBron on the Spurs, Warriors, Clippers, or the Rockets. All 4 teams are super stacked and 2 of them have ELITE coaches.


How did MJ ball do before the emergence of Pippen? Not even one Finals.

You really think the east teams are built to beat eachother? Or that there's THAT big a difference in how you build a team between the conferences? There's a talent gap because there's a talent gap.

That said this whole argument between both of you seems like insanity to even be a part of, so I'm running off now.

[aj1987]

You really think the east teams are built to beat eachother? Or that there's THAT big a difference in how you build a team between the conferences? There's a talent gap because there's a talent gap.

That said this whole argument between both of you seems like insanity to even be a part of, so I'm running off now.
I was actually using LeBron's teams as an example. If you actually read my entire post, I DID point out the talent disparity between the two teams.

You just can't take an EC team and put it in the WC. 12 of the 15 All-NBA players this past season were from the WC. 8 of the 10 All-Defensive players were from the WC as well. There's a talent disparity between the EC and WC. If an EC superstar goes to the WC, he's gonna be on one of the stacked AF WC teams. You just can't MOVE teams like that.

From my earlier post. Do you people not read entire posts?

[90sgoat]

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :hammerhead: :hammerhead: :hammerhead:

Yeah...cause I'm 12 and never saw or heard of freaking Reggie Miller. You seriously just have to be kidding me already. Go watch a Memphis game and see about all that 3 point shooting....

Memphis is maybe the only team in the league to still play inside-out, Chicago did too, and they are a fan favorite because of it. Also quite successful doing so, despite that Marc Gasol and even Pau Gasol and not even close to being as good as the Admiral, Ewing, Shaq, Hakeem etc.

Al Jefferson scores at will in the post and he is a fraction as talented as the centers of before.

[AnaheimLakers24]

Fake heat fans still getting riled up over 2/6

Wade sucks

[3ball]

It takes time for expansion teams to grow and develop and for the nba to bring in pro level talent. It doesn't just happen the next day, thus it watered the game down. The game has more than fully recovered, but it wasn't over night.


This is an outright lie - every expansion player was already a professional basketball player.

Most of the same pro leagues that exist today, also existed back then.. You seem to think overseas pro leagues are a recent development.. They've been around since before you were born.. And again, the CBA was the NBA's official domestic feeder system, which was was replaced by the D-league in 2001.

When expansion happened in the late 80's and early 90's, those expansion players were ALL PROS... They weren't bums off the street like young fans think - there were 30 teams, just like today, so the top 450 professionals in the world made the league back then, just like today.

EDIT to this post: As it turns out, virtually ALL of the expansion players were already NBA players - each NBA team "protected" 8 players, and the remaining players were available for the expansion draft... The expansion teams would pick 1 or 2 players from each NBA team in the expansion draft.
.

[Blue&Orange]

No doubt it has best team basketball I have seen myself in long time.
You follow basket since when six months ago?. Game today is one ballhogger and rest standing still behind the 3 point line, and three after three after three. Sometimes i wonder if i'm watching a game of basketball or a 3 point contest.

[dhsilv]

I was actually using LeBron's teams as an example. If you actually read my entire post, I DID point out the talent disparity between the two teams.

You just can't take an EC team and put it in the WC. 12 of the 15 All-NBA players this past season were from the WC. 8 of the 10 All-Defensive players were from the WC as well. There's a talent disparity between the EC and WC. If an EC superstar goes to the WC, he's gonna be on one of the stacked AF WC teams. You just can't MOVE teams like that.

From my earlier post. Do you people not read entire posts?

I read that. I do not understand the part in bold above. Why can't you move them? Is the whole point not to do JUST THAT? You might have to walk back to the beggining for me. I'll fully admit sometimes I'm a bit slow on the uptake, I still have no idea what a "stan" is for example. I'm new with how this board works, but the logic and the point you're aiming for perhaps is being missed by me?

[dhsilv]

Memphis is maybe the only team in the league to still play inside-out, Chicago did too, and they are a fan favorite because of it. Also quite successful doing so, despite that Marc Gasol and even Pau Gasol and not even close to being as good as the Admiral, Ewing, Shaq, Hakeem etc.

Al Jefferson scores at will in the post and he is a fraction as talented as the centers of before.

Oh man SOOOOOOOOOOOOO disagree on Jefferson. He'd be an all time great in a different era. His low post game is SO good that he's able to use it today. I truly believe the rules changes would greatly impact ALL of the all time greats in the modern game. Now lets talk football for a second.

So basketball and football have a common concept. You want to dominate the middle! In football you want to be able to run up the middle and in basketball and you want to shoot shots at the rim. The problem is defenses do not want to let that happen. Hell it's the same in chess (aren't all things in life ultimately explained with chess?).

Anyway one of the big things that happened in football is this spread offense stuff, all this passing crap (3 point shooting). What it did was it pulled the defense away from the middle, allowing the offense to strike the middle. Both the NBA and NFL seemed to like that play style so the rules have been made to favor that. Remember 20 seconds of barkley backing guys down in the 90's? It was awful to watch but damn he was good at it, double team him or he's going to score and if you double he's going to hit an open man. Same with football, if you don't protect the deep ball you'll lose. But doing that opens the middle.

The nba hasn't been as extreme as the nfl with rules changes so my hope is as team build to counter the 3 point shooting spacing that we see teams go big and attack the middle again, but the inside in the nba today is much more physical than people give it credit for. Slashers are treated like a little princess but big get away with a LOT, just not close lines. It will take some pretty skilled and or super freaky shaq like guys to move the needle, but if you're watching what philly is doing, I think we'll see teams build themselves around the counter super big team model.

Sadly I think fans are missing that rules have hurt the post player and have moved us this way a long with zones making it easier to turn a "soft" double into a "hard" double since the ball goes into a player who is already being soft doubled.

[dhsilv]

This is an outright lie - every expansion player was already a professional basketball player.

Most of the same pro leagues that exist today, also existed back then.. You seem to think overseas pro leagues are a recent development.. They've been around since before you were born.. And again, the CBA was the NBA's official domestic feeder system, which was was replaced by the D-league in 2001.

When expansion happened in the late 80's and early 90's, those expansion players were ALL PROS... They weren't bums off the street like young fans think - there were 30 teams, just like today, so the top 450 professionals in the world made the league back then, just like today.

EDIT to this post: As it turns out, virtually ALL of the expansion players were already NBA players - each NBA team "protected" 8 players, and the remaining players were available for the expansion draft... The expansion teams would pick 1 or 2 players from each NBA team in the expansion draft.
.

I've already corrected you before.

Though you're right, they were likely "pro" players but they were not as the same level as the guys before ( always exceptions).

[90sgoat]

Oh man SOOOOOOOOOOOOO disagree on Jefferson. He'd be an all time great in a different era. His low post game is SO good that he's able to use it today. I truly believe the rules changes would greatly impact ALL of the all time greats in the modern game. Now lets talk football for a second.

So basketball and football have a common concept. You want to dominate the middle! In football you want to be able to run up the middle and in basketball and you want to shoot shots at the rim. The problem is defenses do not want to let that happen. Hell it's the same in chess (aren't all things in life ultimately explained with chess?).

Anyway one of the big things that happened in football is this spread offense stuff, all this passing crap (3 point shooting). What it did was it pulled the defense away from the middle, allowing the offense to strike the middle. Both the NBA and NFL seemed to like that play style so the rules have been made to favor that. Remember 20 seconds of barkley backing guys down in the 90's? It was awful to watch but damn he was good at it, double team him or he's going to score and if you double he's going to hit an open man. Same with football, if you don't protect the deep ball you'll lose. But doing that opens the middle.

The nba hasn't been as extreme as the nfl with rules changes so my hope is as team build to counter the 3 point shooting spacing that we see teams go big and attack the middle again, but the inside in the nba today is much more physical than people give it credit for. Slashers are treated like a little princess but big get away with a LOT, just not close lines. It will take some pretty skilled and or super freaky shaq like guys to move the needle, but if you're watching what philly is doing, I think we'll see teams build themselves around the counter super big team model.

Sadly I think fans are missing that rules have hurt the post player and have moved us this way a long with zones making it easier to turn a "soft" double into a "hard" double since the ball goes into a player who is already being soft doubled.

Nah man.

Jefferson first. The man does have a smooth offensive game, I will give you that, he could likely get a couple more points in the 90s if he was the focal of some bad team. However, he is still vastly inferior to the Admiral, Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq, Timmy. People tend to think these guys only scored close to the rim, while Ewing, Admiral and Hakeem were skilled outside scorers. Ewing and Hakeem hit jumpers all night long. They would do just fine. Look at DeMarcus Cousins, also a skilled big man, no problems racking up points there either.

As for the efficiency of the 3 point shot, one of the major mistakes is thinking it is the spacing or the 3 point shot efficiency that created this strategy. It absolutely is not. What allows this strategy is the complete removal of hand check and the touch fouls on penetrating players.

I also want to stress that players today get away with blatant illegal screens, you know the semi screens where they change direction in mid screen? Those are NOT legal screens in the 90s.

This added with that you literally are not allowed to lay a finger on a guard means that it is very, very easy to create penetration and because the NBA removed the ability to paint camp, the help has to come from somewhere else, at which point there is an open man either directly from 3 or through a swing pass.

It's formulaic as hell and it can only be done because the rules so extremely blatantly favor penetration at the top. THAT and not the 3 point shot efficiency increase is why this is favored over low post play.

With the extremely unbalanced rules, you almost have to.

If the NBA wants a more balanced game then it isn't about the 3 point line but about how you are allowed to defend penetration.

[FreezingTsmoove]

what? are you talking about players drafted in the 90's? Kobe, Shaq, Garnett and others best years were in the 2000s

Not to mention you're comparing some full careers to guys who aren't done yet like durant. and we're only 1/2 way through the 2010s...

Duncan > Hakeem
Wade > Drexler
CP3 = Payton (I'll give u this one, but it's arguable)
Durant will probably be > Malone
Nash = Stockton
Allen > Reggie Miller
Howard > Mourning
Dirk > Pippen
Garnett > D-Rob (arguable)

:oldlol: :applause:

[dhsilv]

Nah man.

Jefferson first. The man does have a smooth offensive game, I will give you that, he could likely get a couple more points in the 90s if he was the focal of some bad team. However, he is still vastly inferior to the Admiral, Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq, Timmy. People tend to think these guys only scored close to the rim, while Ewing, Admiral and Hakeem were skilled outside scorers. Ewing and Hakeem hit jumpers all night long. They would do just fine. Look at DeMarcus Cousins, also a skilled big man, no problems racking up points there either.

As for the efficiency of the 3 point shot, one of the major mistakes is thinking it is the spacing or the 3 point shot efficiency that created this strategy. It absolutely is not. What allows this strategy is the complete removal of hand check and the touch fouls on penetrating players.

I also want to stress that players today get away with blatant illegal screens, you know the semi screens where they change direction in mid screen? Those are NOT legal screens in the 90s.

This added with that you literally are not allowed to lay a finger on a guard means that it is very, very easy to create penetration and because the NBA removed the ability to paint camp, the help has to come from somewhere else, at which point there is an open man either directly from 3 or through a swing pass.

It's formulaic as hell and it can only be done because the rules so extremely blatantly favor penetration at the top. THAT and not the 3 point shot efficiency increase is why this is favored over low post play.

With the extremely unbalanced rules, you almost have to.

If the NBA wants a more balanced game then it isn't about the 3 point line but about how you are allowed to defend penetration.

First my point was the rules have made it better for shooters and guards. I think we agree here? yes?

Second they let hell go on down low and going down low means you pass on the play we have. AKA Jefferson's offense is way under valued. That said I said Jefferson would be an all time great. You listed other all time greats who I didn't say he'd be better than. I'm not saying he's top 10 all time, that's way too hard to figure out and I think cousins is better than him, but I went with jefferson because of that. He isn't THAT great to day, but in an era of different or lack of defense and his offensive post plays, man that dude would be a top 3-5 center the 80's or back. The 90's was a bit better with centers imo, and a few too many had j's.

[Hey Yo]

There's only one Jefferson.


http://i.ytimg.com/vi/oOSalcHVXnU/hqdefault.jpg

[dhsilv]

https://blogofbourbon.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/dsc04837.jpg
There's only one Jefferson.


http://i.ytimg.com/vi/oOSalcHVXnU/hqdefault.jpg

in search of!

[Hey Yo]

in search of!
Earth Wind and Fire tickets

[Funktion]

in search of!

first he gonna shit, then he gonna kill us

http://thumbnails66.imagebam.com/20670/930d3c206692995.gif

[dhsilv]

http://thumbnails66.imagebam.com/20670/930d3c206692995.gif

I too enjoy boobs....