Didn't Wilt & KAJ's eras overlap?

[Inferno]

I'm not an oldie so correct me if I'm wrong, but how can people bash on Wilt for playing in a weak era when he probably matched up against prime(?) Kareem a few times in the tail end of his career? :confusedshrug:

How are his h2h stats against Kareem?

[SouBeachTalents]

They were in the league together for 4 seasons, Kareem played for 16 seasons after Wilt retired

[Inferno]

They were in the league together for 4 seasons, Kareem played for 16 seasons after Wilt retired

Ah, so if an old, past his prime Wilt managed to put up decent stats against a young Kareem, wouldn't the arguments of him only being good in a weak era be invalid?

[SouBeachTalents]

Ah, so if an old, past his prime Wilt managed to put up decent stats against a young Kareem, wouldn't the arguments of him only being good in a weak era be invalid?

I think the '70's, especially the mid to late '70's is the weakest era of the shot clock era

[FKAri]

I think the '70's, especially the mid to late '70's is the weakest era of the shot clock era

Yup.

People were too busy getting laid instead of working on their game :oldlol:

[Sarcastic]

I think the '70's, especially the mid to late '70's is the weakest era of the shot clock era

That also coincides with KAJ's best years, and some people think he has a claim to GOAT.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

That also coincides with KAJ's best years, and some people think he has a claim to GOAT.

I've been arguing this for a while now, but KAJ racked up almost all his MVP's in the 70's, which is the weakest era of the shot clock era. Not only that, but he managed to win a single ring in that era with the 2nd GOAT PG. Didn't win another ring until the 80's when the GOAT PG joined his team. Then he won a single ring as the man throughout their 5 titles. In the 70's he was losing with HCA to people outside the top 20. He didn't even have to face any other top 10 players that whole time other than a few seasons against the corpse of Wilt. All of that of course is never taken into account when evaluating his ATG status and he is almost consensus top 2 all time.

[GIF REACTION]

I've been arguing this for a while now, but KAJ racked up almost all his MVP's in the 70's, which is the weakest era of the shot clock era. Not only that, but he managed to win a single ring in that era with the 2nd GOAT PG. Didn't win another ring until the 80's when the GOAT PG joined his team. Then he won a single ring as the man throughout their 5 titles. In the 70's he was losing with HCA to people outside the top 20. He didn't even have to face any other top 10 players that whole time other than a few seasons against the corpse of Wilt. All of that of course is never taken into account when evaluating his ATG status and he is almost consensus top 2 all time.
Hater Troll.

The 70's was actually a stronger era than the 90's.

REAL Hand-checking. Way more physical.

[TripleA]

didn't old ass Kareem clown Hakeem and Ewing so couldn't prime wilt compete with them. :bowdown:

[julizaver]

I'm not an oldie so correct me if I'm wrong, but how can people bash on Wilt for playing in a weak era when he probably matched up against prime(?) Kareem a few times in the tail end of his career? :confusedshrug:

How are his h2h stats against Kareem?

Here is their H2H game by game stats:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=170340

For the first 11 games their stats were almost equal - then in 1972 Wilt completely abondoned scoring (as in 1967 he cut his scoring and become more of a team all around player) and became concentrated solely on defense and anchored Lakers to 33 game winning streak and title. While Kareem in 1972 was at his scoring peak and NBA best player. And while Wilt was still an elite player at 36, he was obviosly not the same player who won 3 consecutive MVPs in 1965-68.

[julizaver]

Ah, so if an old, past his prime Wilt managed to put up decent stats against a young Kareem, wouldn't the arguments of him only being good in a weak era be invalid?

Yes of course, player like Kareem would beast in the curent era. He was tall, athletic (his 70s version) and skillful. He had not only the hook, but he scored on every possible way, jump shots, lay ups, tap ins, dunks, left hooks, turnaround jump shots.
And in my opinion a prime Wilt (let's say circa 1965-1968) would outplay prime Kareem ... who had troubles scoring vs old past his prime Wilt. It will not be one sided but I would give the edge to prime Wilt - the most dominant ever.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I watched every era bball live: 60s-70s = weak era

[stephanieg]

Kareem would obliterate the current NBA. Unlike some other bigs who rely on out muscling guys, Kareem's finesse game wouldn't be punished by the soft modern rules and whistle happy refs. Guys like Shaq and Moses would be sitting on the bench after five minutes. I remember watching old Shaq and thinking it was hilarious how the refs treated him like a red headed step child whenever he tried to make a move.

[salwan]

russell > wilt > KAJ > hakeem

you're welcome :pimp:

[julizaver]

russell > wilt > KAJ > hakeem

you're welcome :pimp:

Wilt>Kareem and Russell >Shaq

[LAZERUSS]

Yes of course, player like Kareem would beast in the curent era. He was tall, athletic (his 70s version) and skillful. He had not only the hook, but he scored on every possible way, jump shots, lay ups, tap ins, dunks, left hooks, turnaround jump shots.
And in my opinion a prime Wilt (let's say circa 1965-1968) would outplay prime Kareem ... who had troubles scoring vs old past his prime Wilt. It will not be one sided but I would give the edge to prime Wilt - the most dominant ever.


I have said it before, but aside from FT shooting, there was not ONE area in which Kareem was better than a prime Chamberlain. And even in FT shooting, it must be mentioned that Wilt averaged 432 MADE FTs per season in his career...Kareem... 335.

Wilt was simply a considerably better scorer; more efficient from the field (and had Wilt had the luxury of playing in the defenseless 80's, he might have had seasons in the .800 range); a much better rebounder; a considerably better passer (again...the man led the league in assists, and has seasons of 8.3 apg and 7.8 apg); a much better shot-blocker (in Wilt's last season he blocked 5.4 shots per game...Kareem played that year, and the next year he blocked 3.5: and a much defensive force (hell, in his LAST two seasons he was voted First-Team All-Defense over Kareem.)

Wilt> Kareem . And by a solid margin.

[Pointguard]

Here is their H2H game by game stats:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=170340

For the first 11 games their stats were almost equal - then in 1972 Wilt completely abondoned scoring (as in 1967 he cut his scoring and become more of a team all around player) and became concentrated solely on defense and anchored Lakers to 33 game winning streak and title. While Kareem in 1972 was at his scoring peak and NBA best player. And while Wilt was still an elite player at 36, he was obviosly not the same player who won 3 consecutive MVPs in 1965-68.
And this was with Kareem admitting he played with an extra energy for Wilt. Another thing to consider was that prime Wilt loved to run and was very active. Kareem had major problems with Malone because of his activity level. Wilt was one of the most active front court players ever. And Wilt was one of the few that could ever block the sky hook, and was able to do so after losing a step, a major injury, and at the tail end of his career.

[The Iron Fist]

I've been arguing this for a while now, but KAJ racked up almost all his MVP's in the 70's, which is the weakest era of the shot clock era. Not only that, but he managed to win a single ring in that era with the 2nd GOAT PG. Didn't win another ring until the 80's when the GOAT PG joined his team. Then he won a single ring as the man throughout their 5 titles. In the 70's he was losing with HCA to people outside the top 20. He didn't even have to face any other top 10 players that whole time other than a few seasons against the corpse of Wilt. All of that of course is never taken into account when evaluating his ATG status and he is almost consensus top 2 all time.
Kareem played against at least 30 of the greatest players of all time. GFY.

[LAZERUSS]

And this was with Kareem admitting he played with an extra energy for Wilt. Another thing to consider was that prime Wilt loved to run and was very active. Kareem had major problems with Malone because of his activity level. Wilt was one of the most active front court players ever. And Wilt was one of the few that could ever block the sky hook, and was able to do so after losing a step, a major injury, and at the tail end of his career.


And in the ONE game in which Wilt faced Kareem before his knee injury...he wiped the floor with Kareem.

He oustcored him, 25-23; outrebounded him, 25-20; outassisted him, 5-2; outblocked him, 3-2 (including TWO sky-hooks); and outshot him from the field, 9-14 to 9-21.

Granted, this was a rookie Kareem, but this was also nowhere near a peak Chamberlain, either.

[HighFlyer23]

Shaq and Hakeem are the two best centers

[LAZERUSS]

Shaq and Hakeem are the two best centers

After Wilt, KAJ, and Russell, of course.

But thanks for pointing out how good they were.

:cheers:

[dankok8]

And in the ONE game in which Wilt faced Kareem before his knee injury...he wiped the floor with Kareem.

He oustcored him, 25-23; outrebounded him, 25-20; outassisted him, 5-2; outblocked him, 3-2 (including TWO sky-hooks); and outshot him from the field, 9-14 to 9-21.

Granted, this was a rookie Kareem, but this was also nowhere near a peak Chamberlain, either.

Actually this LA times article claims that the battle was an individual draw. I don't think your take that "Wilt wiped the floor with Kareem" is accurate.



October 24, 1969
Chamberlain Edges Lew, Guides Lakers' Victory
LOS ANGELES (AP)-The individual battle might be termed a draw with each man praising the other, but in the end it was the over-all firepower of the Los Angeles Lakers that beat an inexperienced Milwaukee Buck team.

Lew Alcindor. the million dollar rookie of the Bucks, lost his third game since high school Friday night when Wilt Chamberlain, the greatest scorer in NBA history, led the Lakers to a 123-112 victory. Chamberlain scored 25 points and grabbed 25 rebounds but Alcindor, the 7-foot-1 3/4 rookie, made his presence felt with 23 points and 20 rebounds.
It was a game of muscle under the boards.

"I thought he was more physical against me than I was against him." Chamberlain said after the game. "He's very strong, very quick and moves very well with the ball. I don't really think he surprised me at all."

"It was more physical than It was in our first three games," Lew said. "It was the first time I've played against Wilt for real and he taught me a few things."

But Lew taught a few things to Wilt, too. Using his flat hook shot and leaning toward the basket. Alcindor scored 12 first-half points and Chamberlain, facing a man taller than himself for the first time in a while, had a bit of trouble blocking shots.

After Wilt finally did block a couple of Lew's attempts, the Buck rookie began
faking the hook shot. When Wilt went up to block them. Alcindor would
turn the other way and score an easy layup.

But in the second half. Chamberlain scored 18 points and using a balanced attack, with Elgin Baylor. Jerry West and rookie guard Willie McCarter scoring freely, the Lakers broke the game open in the fourth period.

"I thought Wilt played one of his really fine games," said Larry Costello. the Buck rookie coach. "Our offense let us down tonight because they (the Lakers) were sagging on Lew. Somebody had to be open but we weren't hitting the open man."

Milwaukee held a 60-54 halftime lead, but the Lakers rallied for an 11-point margin in the fourth quarter. When the Bucks closed to 105-102, Elgin Baylor got hot and hit for six straight baskets to put the game out of reach. Baylor's 26 points was high for Los Angeles. Flynn Robinson of Milwaukee led all scorers with 33 points.

[LAZERUSS]

Actually this LA times article claims that the battle was an individual draw. I don't think your take that "Wilt wiped the floor with Kareem" is accurate.

And yet...he did badly outplay him in EVERY facet of that game. Just as it was the consensus in their '71 WCF's...when a PEAK Kareem (Alcindor) faced a past-his-prime Wilt, only a year removed from major knee surgery, and in the worst season of his career...


Game 5 April 18, 1971

Bucks Await Championship Series
Wilt Wins 7-Foot Battle But Loses 7-Game Set
By BOB GREENE
Associated Press Sports Writer

MILWAUKEE — Wilt Chamberlain captured the battle of the seven-footers,
but soaring "Captain Marvel" powered t he Milwaukee Bucks to the Western
Conference title yesterday in the National Basketball Association playoffs.
The Bucks, 116-98 winners over the Los Angeles Lakers, now will take on
the Eastern Conference champions Wednesday night in the opening game of the best-of-7 championship series.

Milwaukee's opponent will be the winner of tonight's battle between
the New York Knicks and the Baltimore Bullets. The Bullets deadlocked their
semifinal series against the Knicks with a 113-96 victory
Sunday, forcing a seventh game in New York tonight

"Captain Marvel" is Greg Smith, the Bucks' 6 foot-5 forward
who is considered long on defense but short on offense.
Against the Lakers Sunday, he paced the Bucks with 22 points,
leading Milwaukee's well-balanced scoring attack.

"This is the first time I've led a team in scoring since I was in
high school," said Smith, a three year NBA veteran.
"That's seven years since I've been the high scorer."

While 7-2 Lew Alcindor and 7-1 Chamberlain battled, Smith
sneaked in time and again for crucial rebounds or vital points.
Because of foul trouble, he played only 23 minutes, less
than one-half of the game.

Chamberlain, the veteran Laker center, continued his dominance
outscoring the Bucks' center, 23-20, and blocked six shots
while Alcindor slapped away three would-be baskets.

Four times, Chamberlain knocked away an Alcindor field
goal attempt, and twice Alcindor did the same on Chamberlain's
shots.

In the rebounding battle, Alcindor finished with 15 and
Chamberlain 12.

Bob Dandridge added 20 points to Milwaukee's total.
High for Los Angeles was Happy Hairston with 27.
With their first conference crown in hand, the Bucks
immediately turned to their next goal, the NBA championship.
"We want the Knicks," said Robertson. "We have something
to prove. If we beat Baltimore, everyone will say the Knicks
were the best team, they lost because of injuries."

Alcindor agreed. "We want to be the best," he
said, "and we want to do it by beating the champions.


Can you imagine what a PEAK Chamberlain would have done against this PEAK Kareem?

[dankok8]

And yet...he did badly outplay him in EVERY facet of that game. Just as it was the consensus in their '71 WCF's...when a PEAK Kareem (Alcindor) faced a past-his-prime Wilt, only a year removed from major knee surgery, and in the worst season of his career...



Can you imagine what a PEAK Chamberlain would have done against this PEAK Kareem?

I'm not sure I agree that peak Wilt would destroy a peak Kareem.

You see this was the best particular match-up between the two men from a strength perspective. Wilt was >300 lbs and Kareem was 230 lbs so Wllt could outmuscle him in some games. A peak Wilt in 1967 was faster laterally and more durable but he wasn't as strong and weighed around 270 lbs. Meanwhile a widely accepted peak Kareem in 1977 was around 260 lbs. I think Wilt was no doubt much stronger still but he wouldn't be able to push him around as much.

It's also worth noting that Kareem held Wilt to very low FG% compared to his averages as vice versa. Wilt shot just 56.0% against Kareem in the regular season and just 47.8% in the playoffs. Meanwhile Wilt shot well over 60% against the rest of the league.

Honestly I think a match-up between the two of them would turn into a defensive slugfest as it usually was. Both men would score 30 ppg but at <50% shooting, Wilt would outrebound Kareem slightly... It would be close.

[LAZERUSS]

I'm not sure I agree that peak Wilt would destroy a peak Kareem.

You see this was the best particular match-up between the two men from a strength perspective. Wilt was >300 lbs and Kareem was 230 lbs so Wllt could outmuscle him in some games. A peak Wilt in 1967 was faster laterally and more durable but he wasn't as strong and weighed around 270 lbs. Meanwhile a widely accepted peak Kareem in 1977 was around 260 lbs. I think Wilt was no doubt much stronger still but he wouldn't be able to push him around as much.

It's also worth noting that Kareem held Wilt to very low FG% compared to his averages as vice versa. Wilt shot just 53.7% against Kareem in the regular season and just 47.8% in the playoffs. Meanwhile Wilt shot well over 60% against the rest of the league.

Honestly I think a match-up between the two of them would turn into a defensive slugfest as it usually was. Both men would score 30 ppg but at <50% shooting, Wilt would outrebound Kareem slightly... It would be close.

I disagree, but ...

:cheers: