08 Celtics BARELY beat the 08 Cavs

[Akhenaten]

with BRAWN shooting 36% with 5TPG, THE worst playoff series by a TOP 15 GOAT player in the history of the NBA and the Celtics got pushed to 7 Games.

Game 1 BRAWN went 2-18, 12 points, 10 TO's and the Cavs lost by FOUR!!:wtf:

FOUR!!

If BRAWN makes 3 more FG's that game (which would have still been a horrifically bad game), the Celtics lose that series.

SO PLEASE stop with this silly notion that the 08 Celts were some sort of unstoppable worldbeating type team they were not.

[Harison]

They were coasting, Celtics were one of few teams who could turn it on at will, and they did.

Nobody is saying that Cs '08 were "unstoppable worldbeating team", but they were one of the best champions in recent decade.

[Ne 1]

I remember Kobe and LeBron both noting that the Boston '08 Boston defense was some of the most overpowing they had ever faced in their post game pressers after their respective teams losing the series. They both remarked just how stifling they were and how much space they took away.

[stephanieg]

I remember one of the early games the Cavs started to pull away in the 2nd quarter and then Rondo saved the day by hitting multiple threes in a row. Meanwhile, Ray Allen was putting up bricks for days. Was that one of the series where KG went into his tiger stance? I know he did that a couple times.

Was it game 7 when LeBron could've won or tied the game near the end but blew a pretty wide open layup on the break? Cavs got killed by PJ Brown...

[Akhenaten]

They were coasting, Celtics were one of few teams who could turn it on at will, and they did.

Nobody is saying that Cs '08 were "unstoppable worldbeating team", but they were one of the best champions in recent decade.

Shoot they certainly act like it, like 90% of folks are saying they would summarily dismiss the 2001-2014 Heat because the Heat for example went 7 games with a worn down 12 Celtics.

If just doesn't make sense to me, they demote the Heat team's greatness based on something like that but casually brush aside the 08 Celtics going 7 games with a 47 win Hawk team a weak azz Cle team with it's best player played like absolute DOGCHIT :confusedshrug:

Even you brush off them going 7 games as them "just coasting", the hell is that? that's bullcrap that's what that is.

This is a team that STRUGGLED to avg 80 points, GREAT defensive team but VERY beatable.

[TheMarkMadsen]

wow bran costing his team an opportunity to win the title

what's new

[Akhenaten]

I remember one of the early games the Cavs started to pull away in the 2nd quarter and then Rondo saved the day by hitting multiple threes in a row. Meanwhile, Ray Allen was putting up bricks for days. Was that one of the series where KG went into his tiger stance? I know he did that a couple times.

Was it game 7 when LeBron could've won or tied the game near the end but blew a pretty wide open layup on the break? Cavs got killed by PJ Brown...

It was a half court set and it was game one, that was BRAWN's worst playoff game of his career 2-18, 12 points, 10 TO's. The Cavs lost by four with as you said BRAWN having a chance to win the game but missed a bunny, that's how close the great 08 Celtics came to losing to a SHIT Cavs team.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdeqTcdauyU

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

If anything it shows how underrated those teams surrounded by LeBron were. Guy was shooting a putrid percentage, and overall, having an historically AWFUL series, yet his team were still in these games and took the C's to 7 games...

It can be argued that Boston played down to their competition, something I would say was partially true, but matchups play a big part here as well.

[TheMarkMadsen]

^^

great point

so did Lebron have help or not bran stans??

Shoots 35% for the series with 5 turnovers per game

8-42 through games 1 and 2 :roll: :roll:

his team still took the series to 7

"no help"

[pegasus]

If anything it shows how underrated those teams surrounded by LeBron were. Guy was shooting a putrid percentage, and overall, having an historically AWFUL series, yet his team were still in these games and took the C's to 7 games...

It can be argued that Boston played down to their competition, something I would say was partially true, but matchups play a big part here as well.
Yup. Cavs in 08, 09, and 10 were a great defensive and rebounding team that could stay in games even when their best offensive player was shitting the bed.

[SouBeachTalents]

Not to take anything away from the Cavs, but if we're being honest, Pierce & Allen played like complete dogshit those first 4 games as well

Pierce: 13/5/4 on 35%
Allen: 10/4/3 33%

That definitely helped level the playing field and helped somewhat offset LeBron playing horribly as well

[Braincells]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB-bN-RkJLM

[jbryan1984]

Yeah I remember that. It was almost like that should of been the ECF that year. Boston had this new team that everyone thought would win from the start but the Cavs had made the finals the year before with LeBron carrying a lackluster roster. Now, we had made some big trades at the deadline a few months earlier. We got Ben Wallace, West, Wally Szberbiak. So, while there still wasn't a clear cut #2 option, these guys seemed better than what LeBron carried before. Wallace was still pretty good defensively, Wally was lights out from 3 and West was one of the better scoring bench guards at the time. I really thought we had a chance when it went to game 7. That was also the series where LeBron told his mom to sit her ass down.

[Akhenaten]

Craziest thing about this series for me is it really illustrates the power of the media because ALL anyone remembers about this series is that BRAWN and Pierce had an epic duel in Gm 7.

NO ONE and I do mean NO ONE remembers that dude had the worst playoff series for an all time great ever. No one remembers 2-18 12 points, 10 TO's, no one remembers him shooting 36% FG and avg 5 TO's.

Not even the most virulent Lebron haters and Kobe stans seem to be aware of just how putrid this guy was in this series. You see the one Kobestan in here damn near soiled him self cause he got some new ammo :oldlol:

It goes to show you it's ALL about narratives man, nobody gives a crap about the details. This is why Lebron came to Miami because he understood history wouldnt remember the decision and him colluding etc. all that will be remembered is that he is a champion.

[dubeta]

Lol LeBron ended up playing better against the 2008 Celtics than Kobe did that year. Chalk another L for OP

[Akhenaten]

Lol LeBron ended up playing better against the 2008 Celtics than Kobe did that year. Chalk another L for OP


The thread's more about the 08 Celtics than it is Lebron, I was just using Lebron to underscore just how overrated that 08 Celtics team was. Because if he could play that poorly with a pretty avg cast and still come that close to winning that how great was that Boston team really?


Still how did BRAWN play better than Kobe, he shot 36% and turned it over 5 times a game, Kobe played poorly but BRAWN was just STINKY.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

Let's be real here - if KG never blew out his knee Kobe would only have 3 titles still

[BrownEye007]

Yeah I remember that. It was almost like that should of been the ECF that year. Boston had this new team that everyone thought would win from the start but the Cavs had made the finals the year before with LeBron carrying a lackluster roster. Now, we had made some big trades at the deadline a few months earlier. We got Ben Wallace, West, Wally Szberbiak. So, while there still wasn't a clear cut #2 option, these guys seemed better than what LeBron carried before. Wallace was still pretty good defensively, Wally was lights out from 3 and West was one of the better scoring bench guards at the time. I really thought we had a chance when it went to game 7. That was also the series where LeBron told his mom to sit her ass down. I agree with most of what you said here but I can't recall wally ever being good on the Cavs with the exception of maybe a few games. I had time to watch almost every Cavs game back then too.

[tpols]

Lebron played that bad because of boston.. that's why they were so great. Their defense. They would do the same thing to superstars of today.



Plus Cleveland supporting cast once again wildly underrated to keep them in the series despite bron.

[DMAVS41]

Lebron played that bad because of boston.. that's why they were so great. Their defense. They would do the same thing to superstars of today.



Plus Cleveland supporting cast once again wildly underrated to keep them in the series despite bron.


True, but it kind of cuts both ways. Lebron was damn good over those last 3 games. Cavs lost 2 of them...

That 08 team was just another example of a good, but not great supporting cast. It's not a championship caliber supporting cast by pretty much any definition.

Doesn't change the fact that Lebron was abysmal the first 2 games of that series....but Lebron playing like shit early on doesn't change the fact that a team heavily relying on West, Wally, Gibson, and Joe Smith isn't a championship caliber.

[Droid101]

Let's be real here - if KG never blew out his knee Kobe would only have 3 titles still
And if LeBron wasn't the biggest choker/quitter of all time, KG and Pierce would have 0. So, you win some, you lose some.

[G0ATbe]

8-42 through games 1 and 2 :roll: :roll:

his team still took the series to 7

"no help":roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[ArbitraryWater]

I remember Kobe and LeBron both noting that the Boston '08 Boston defense was some of the most overpowing they had ever faced in their post game pressers after their respective teams losing the series. They both remarked just how stifling they were and how much space they took away.

This, between all the hate from the KB/Bron camps, god damn, watching those seres', those defenses from the Celtics were absolutely crushing with their schemes against the individual superstars, Bron n' Kobe.

Even in that game 7 when LeBron killed them, the defense was monstrous.

[tpols]

True, but it kind of cuts both ways. Lebron was damn good over those last 3 games. Cavs lost 2 of them...

That 08 team was just another example of a good, but not great supporting cast. It's not a championship caliber supporting cast by pretty much any definition.

Doesn't change the fact that Lebron was abysmal the first 2 games of that series....but Lebron playing like shit early on doesn't change the fact that a team heavily relying on West, Wally, Gibson, and Joe Smith isn't a championship caliber.

It wasn't championship calibre.. prolly would've flopped at some point but to keep them in games and extend series like that... you really can't ask for more help in that series


It's like what you say about rose.. terrible numbers and efficiency from the star yet his team was in every game. Cavs made the games tight like the bulls plus they even won 3 of them with bron playing that way.. while roses only managed 1 win.

[DMAVS41]

It wasn't championship calibre.. prolly would've flopped at some point but to keep them in games and extend series like that... you really can't ask for more help.


It's like what you say about rose.. terrible numbers and efficiency from the star yet his team was in every game. Cavs made the games tight plus they even won 3 of them with bron playing that way.. while roses only managed 1 win.

Sure, in that series, potentially....Lebron had enough help to win.

But it's not a championship caliber roster and absolutely nowhere near as good as the 11 Bulls supporting cast. I'm assuming you agree with this...or are you actually saying the 11 Bulls and 08 Cavs are comparable?

And Lebron's series was significantly better as well...and remember...Lebron does much more than Rose on the court. Lebron's impact isn't nearly as closely tied to scoring and scoring efficiency like Rose's is.

[Ne 1]

Let's be real here - if KG never blew out his knee Kobe would only have 3 titles still

The Lakers won both games vs Boston before KG went down in '09, so there's that. I can just as easily say the Lakers would have 3-peated and Kobe would have 6 rings if Ariza and Bynum didn't get injured.

Speculation is fun.

[ArbitraryWater]

The 2008 Cavaliers were 0-7 without LeBron... I advise you to read through LeBron's season log, in 75 games there is only ONE statistically bad game LeBron had that his team won in. :lol

[tpols]

Sure, in that series, potentially....Lebron had enough help to win.

But it's not a championship caliber roster and absolutely nowhere near as good as the 11 Bulls supporting cast. I'm assuming you agree with this...or are you actually saying the 11 Bulls and 08 Cavs are comparable?

And Lebron's series was significantly better as well...and remember...Lebron does much more than Rose on the court. Lebron's impact isn't nearly as closely tied to scoring and scoring efficiency like Rose's is.

Bulls cast was slightly better but both in the same exact mold. Great defense, rebounding.. one star penetrating breaking the defense down so offensive rebounders could crash the glass and playing a drawn out game.

Disagree on the lebron doing everything better.. as if to make some differentiation between terrible and god awful or something..he got one more assist and 2 more boards per game. Bron wasn't an elite defender in 08 either so it's not like there was some big gap there.. both played like shit against great defenses keying in on them and had a group of hustlers to pick up slack where it was left.

[Cleverness]

Not to take anything away from the Cavs, but if we're being honest, Pierce & Allen played like complete dogshit those first 4 games as well

Pierce: 13/5/4 on 35%
Allen: 10/4/3 33%

That definitely helped level the playing field and helped somewhat offset LeBron playing horribly as well

:eek:

[DMAVS41]

Bulls cast was slightly better but both in the same exact mold. Great defense, rebounding.. one star penetrating breaking the defense down so offensive rebounders could crash the glass and playing a drawn out game.

Disagree on the lebron doing everything better.. he got one more assist and 2 more boards per game. Bron wasn't an elite defender in 08 either so it's not like there was some big gap there.. both played like shit and had a group of hustlers to pick up slack where it was left.


Nah....slightly better?

The Bulls won 61 games (16 more games) and were the top ranked defense and 11th ranked offense.

Cavs won 45 games (16 less games) and were the 11th ranked defense and 20th ranked offense.

Slightly better? :no:

Now, as for the play in the two series in question?

Lebron 27/6/8 48% TS....96 ortg....98 drtg

Rose 23/4/7 44% TS....93 ortg....107 drtg

I also never said Lebron does "everything better"...talk about a straw man. I said Lebron does more on the court and his impact isn't as closely tied to scoring as Rose's is. Which, you know, is just a fact....

Again...just no. Wrong again.

[tpols]

Bulls won more regular season games for a few reasons.. eastern conference trending up in the cavs case strength wise while trending down in roses especially with the dilution of depth due to the collusion.. Rose going bonkers with revolving door of teammates.. having an unreal clutch season..

Both had great defensive and rebounding supporting casts completely devoid of offensive talent. Both supporting casts gave their star help at the most critical time against their hardest competition.. hell brons team even extended it further.

Just... wrong. So wrong.so so so wrongg

[ArbitraryWater]

Bulls won more regular season games for a few reasons.. eastern conference trending up in the cavs case strength wise while trending down in roses especially with the dilution of depth due to the collusion.. Rose going bonkers with revolving door of teammates.. having an unreal clutch season..

Both had great defensive and rebounding supporting casts completely devoid of offensive talent. Both supporting casts gave their star help at the most critical time against their hardest competition.. hell brons team even extended it further.

Just... wrong. So wrong.

:oldlol:

If you're trying to say they had similar help, you're basically saying 2011 Rose > 2008 LeBron, you realize that, right?

Just.... wrong. So wrong.

[Akhenaten]

Lebron played that bad because of boston.. that's why they were so great. Their defense. They would do the same thing to superstars of today.



No doubt about it, didnt help that BRAWN had no one to take the pressure off offensively even though Delonte played pretty well, my point that Boston team isn't nearly as great as most of you make it out to be.

Reason being that for as great as they were defensively they were pretty mediocre on O, they beat that Cleveland team avg 80 ppg for the series. Now, while that Cleveland team played excellent defense 80 points is pretty putrid, if they play the 11 Heat, 15 Warriors, 12 Heat, 13 Heat, 14 Spurs etc. 80 PPG AINT GON CUT IT PERIOD.

you can hold the 08 Hawks, 08 Cavs etc to under 80 ppg not happening with the teams I mentioned above. I cant imagine a scenario where they beat those teams.

[tpols]

:oldlol:

If you're trying to say they had similar help, you're basically saying 2011 Rose > 2008 LeBron, you realize that, right?

Just.... wrong. So wrong.

Regular season? Rose was on some all time carrying shit with rat tag in and out group just like bron except in an even more diluted conference.

I don't have enough L's to hand out so you will have to wait for yours.:D

[DMAVS41]

Bulls won more regular season games for a few reasons.. eastern conference trending up in the cavs case strength wise while trending down in roses especially with the dilution of depth due to the collusion.. Rose going bonkers with revolving door of teammates.. having an unreal clutch season..

Both had great defensive and rebounding supporting casts completely devoid of offensive talent. Both supporting casts gave their star help at the most critical time against their hardest competition.. hell brons team even extended it further.

Just... wrong. So wrong.so so so wrongg


Well....no real response at all.

So they had similar help....yet one team had the best defense in the league and the other couldn't crack the top 10.


Bulls without Rose on the court? +6.1 points per 100
Cavs without Lebron on the court? -8.5 points per 100


You used to be a decent poster man, but now you are just awful. Just give it up.

[ArbitraryWater]

Regular season? Rose was on some all time carrying shit with rat tag in and out group just like bron except in an even more diluted conference.

I don't have enough L's to hand out so you will have to wait for yours.:D

I dont see any huge difference between those conferences... and why would LeBron's postseason give him a significant edge here?

Just come out, follow through with your logic and say 2011 Rose > 2008 LeBron

[DMAVS41]

Regular season? Rose was on some all time carrying shit with rat tag in and out group just like bron except in an even more diluted conference.

I don't have enough L's to hand out so you will have to wait for yours.:D

Just going to keep posting this:

Bulls without Rose on the court? +6.1 points per 100
Cavs without Lebron on the court? -8.5 points per 100


:roll:

[tpols]

Just going to keep posting this:

Bulls without Rose on the court? +6.1 points per 100
Cavs without Lebron on the court? -8.5 points per 100


:roll:

Better bench.. cool.

I like to evaluate the other 80% of help too.. ya know, the starters?

You can't explain anything out.. a contextless number is all your reduced to. Can't refute both were defensive and rebounding specialist supporting casts with similar voids of offensive talent. Can't refute brons stepped up just as much if not more when he needed them too.Can't refute taking yet another L

[DMAVS41]

Better bench.. cool.

I like to evaluate the other 80% of help too.. ya know, the starters?

You can't explain anything out.. a contextless number is all your reduced to. Can't refute both were defensive and rebounding specialist supporting casts with similar voids of offensive talent. Can't refute brons stepped up just as much if not more when he needed them too.Can't refute taking yet another L


That isn't just bench. It's about how a team performs when a player is off the court...that doesn't mean it's all bench players. Starters play with non starters all the time...you get that right?

I can refute everything...the Cavs weren't even a great defensive team you idiot. They were great on the glass, but they weren't this beast of a team on defense. I don't know what the **** you are talking about...and neither do you.

To add to that...the Cavs defense roughly stayed the same with Lebron off the court. When Rose left...the defense got much better.


Want to evaluate how the starters did?

Okay....

With Rose on the court? +8.8 points per 100
With Lebron on the court? +2.4 points per 100

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


Absolutely nothing supports those two teams as being similar at all in strength.

16 less wins...way worse on both sides of the ball. Way worse scoring differential with best player on and off the court...etc.

[tpols]

That isn't just bench. It's about how a team performs when a player is off the court...that doesn't mean it's all bench players. Starters play with non starters all the time...you get that right?

I can refute everything...the Cavs weren't even a great defensive team you idiot. They were great on the glass, but they weren't this beast of a team on defense. I don't know what the **** you are talking about...and neither do you.

To add to that...the Cavs defense roughly stayed the same with Lebron off the court. When Rose left...the defense got much better.


Want to evaluate how the starters did?

Okay....

With Rose on the court? +8.8 points per 100
With Lebron on the court? +2.4 points per 100

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


Absolutely nothing supports those two teams as being similar at all in strength.

16 less wins...way worse on both sides of the ball. Way worse scoring differential with best player on and off the court...etc.

So rose got more out his cast than bron did.. raised his teammates games. Had Keith bogans starting every game as his backcourt mate. A guy you never heard of before that and haven't heard of since. Front court decimated.. ancient Kurt Thomas starting half the season.

But rose contextually stepped.. outplayed most other stars, won a bunch of close games by himself and kept the team together through all the injuries and changes.


And then got less help against his toughest competition.. oh well.

[ArbitraryWater]

tpols you've lost it.. try to mark off legit stats as simply 'oh better bench doe who cares'...

[DMAVS41]

So rose got more out his cast than bron did.. raised his teammates games. Had Keith bogans starting every game as his backcourt mate. A guy you never heard of before that and haven't heard of since. Front court decimated.. ancient Kurt Thomas starting half the season.

But rose contextually stepped.. outplayed most other stars, won a bunch of close games by himself and kept the team together through all the injuries and changes.


And then got less help against his toughest competition.. oh well.

So your take away is that Rose was worth roughly 16 more wins and 6 points per 100 possessions more than Lebron?

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

NBA RAPM....the number you love to use

11 Rose ....2.2
08 Lebron....6.4

Lebron was 5th in the league
Rose was 42nd in the league

Take that L

[tpols]

tpols you've lost it.. try to mark off legit stats as simply 'oh better bench doe who cares'...

Rose played all but 10 minutes a game.. it's a sliver of the action.. it's very nice to have a capable bench, but it's not some :roll: worthy thing to post. It's like 20% of meaningful action maybe less if you count what bench is doing in blowouts. But that's dmavs for ya

[Jacks3]

They were coasting, Celtics were one of few teams who could turn it on at will, and they did.

.
:oldlol:

[tpols]

If you go by wins in the regular season for help 09 and 10 lebron had massive amounts of help. Thing is that defensive and rebounding help doesn't translate well to the playoffs.

Wanna talk wins for help.. what was kobes help on the early 2000 lakers when he was winning less rs games than roses team did? Is Kurt Thomas lol Deng and Carlos boozer worth a prime shaq? lol..

What was dirks help in 07 when his team won even more than roses?

This argument will work for you about as well as posting some more bench stats



So your take away is that Rose was worth roughly 6 points per 100 possessions more than Lebron?


It used to be "hey man, who do you think was better that season?" Now basketball convo is the above...

:facepalm

[Magic 32]

The 2008 Cavaliers were 0-7 without LeBron... I advise you to read through LeBron's season log, in 75 games there is only ONE statistically bad game LeBron had that his team won in. :lol

Easy to explain.

Lebron refuse to run a system, so his teams always fall apart without him.

[ArbitraryWater]

Easy to explain.

Lebron refuse to run a system, so his teams always fall apart without him.

http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah306/MaleRuler/GIFs/7Jv3cYV_zpstyyohof3.gif (http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/MaleRuler/media/GIFs/7Jv3cYV_zpstyyohof3.gif.html)

[DMAVS41]

If you go by wins in the regular season for help 09 and 10 lebron had massive amounts of help. Thing is that defensive and rebounding help doesn't translate well to the playoffs.

Wanna talk wins for help.. what was kobes help on the early 2000 lakers when he was winning less rs games than roses team did? Is Kurt Thomas lol Deng and Carlos boozer worth a prime shaq? lol..

What was dirks help in 07 when his team won even more than roses?

This argument will work for you about as well as posting some more bench stats





It used to be "hey man, who do you think was better that season?" Now basketball convo is the above...

:facepalm


Just take the L...the teams aren't comparable.

Those old conversations were terrible because of people like you. It's nice to have real evidence to show you how stupid your opinion is here.

If we were at the barber shop...you'd be allowed to go on holding the idiotic opinion that the teams are comparable...which they clearly aren't.

:no:

[tpols]

If we were in a barbershop you'd be laughed out for spouting per 100 bench numbers like a robot instead of holding a normal conversation and articulating your points with words. :lol

[DMAVS41]

If we were in a barbershop you'd be laughed out for spouting per 100 bench numbers like a robot instead of holding a normal conversation. :lol

The normal conversation is easy.

You want to have that?

Lebron is clearly better than Rose.

The Bulls supporting cast was way better than the Cavs supporting cast.

Thibs is a better coach than Mike Brown.

The Bulls won 16 more games and were better on both sides of the ball.


You see all that and say what? Nah?

GTFO...

[Da Hammer]

So nobody gonna bring up the fact that the 37-45 Atlanta Hawks took those same Celtics to 7 games???????? :coleman: :coleman: :coleman:

[tpols]

The normal conversation is easy.

You want to have that?

Lebron is clearly better than Rose.

The Bulls supporting cast was way better than the Cavs supporting cast.

Thibs is a better coach than Mike Brown.

The Bulls won 16 more games and were better on both sides of the ball.


You see all that and say what? Nah?

GTFO...

Thibs and Mike brown are both defensive and rebounding motivators with little offensive creativity. Thibs just got fired for his rigid style

Lebron regular seasons for regular season was not better.. in general he is but rose was amazing that rs.

Both flamed out in the playoffs against great defenses while leading one man army offensive casts and facing a big 3 each.

Their situations and performances are extremely similar.. I even admitted roses help was a little better but explained that they were the same type of help.. defensive and rebounding with little offensive support. And even that wasn't enough for you lol

Rose led his team to more wins and got further in the playoffs because a) his conference was more diluted and he faced easier opponents earlier in the playoffs and b) his rs contextually was the same or better.You couldn't accept that because you have an unhealthy obsession with winning Internet arguments.. I might too but damn you're on another level.


You're just a psycho when it comes to rose.. that's all it is. In retrospect I shouldn't have brought him up since it detracted from the point of the thread although it was a valid comparison.. I guess I knew what I was doing though.

[ArbitraryWater]

tpols honestly just told someone they'd have an obsession with Rose while declaring Rose a better player than 2008 LeBron, and in the mean time getting his agenda in his 'argument' (2011 East more diluted doe, meaning when LeBron made the finals the conference was more diluted, but the finals opponent Kobe had in 2008 came from a less diluted one, lol), and disregarding stats he previouly held in high regards.

[DMAVS41]

Thibs and Mike brown are both defensive and rebounding motivators with little offensive creativity. Thibs just got fired for his rigid style

Lebron regular seasons for regular season was not better.. in general he is but rose was amazing that rs.

Both flamed out in the playoffs against great defenses while leading one man army offensive casts and facing a big 3 each.

Their situations and performances are extremely similar.. I even admitted roses was a little better but explained that they were the same type of help.. defensive and rebounding with little offensive support.

Rose led his team to more wins and got further in the playoffs because a) his conference was more diluted and he faced easier opponents earlier in the playoffs and b) his rs contextually was the same or better.You couldn't accept that because you have an unhealthy obsession with winning Internet arguments.. I might too but damn you're on another level.


You're just a psycho when it comes to rose.. that's all it is. In retrospect I shouldn't have brought him up since it detracted from the point of the thread although it was a valid comparison.. I guess I knew what I was doing though.

It's not a valid comparison.

I've given you all the data.

The only thing that is comparable is the rebounding.

The Bulls had a far better defense....what the **** are you talking about? Forget the actual other stuff.

Just on the defense alone it's not comparable.

Deng, Noah, Boozer, ...I'd take every single one of those guys over the 2nd best player on the Cavs. Which is who by the way? Probably Big Z?

It's just not comparable.

You say they are comparable on defense....yet one team is the best defense in the league....and the other is the 11th best.

How is that comparable?

You Rose stans always talk about injuries...have you looked at the Cavs roster in 08? Riddled with guys not playing a ton...some via injuries...some via trade.

You just don't know shit about the game man....

You say they are comparable on offense? Yet Deng and Boozer are clearly better offensively than anyone that Cavs had at that point in their careers.

Even worse....every single metric out there paints Lebron as the clear cut better player than Rose (can't believe you are debating this) in the regular season.

It's not even close.

Just give up on talking ball...you are reaching absurd levels of stupidity.

First it's Tony Allen in 08 on the Celtics being like Iggy....:facepalm
Then it's the 15 Cavs better without Love and Irving....:facepalm :facepalm
Now it's the 08 Cavs were on par with the 11 Bulls in help...:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Just give it up. :wtf:

[tpols]

tpols honestly just told someone they'd have an obsession with Rose while declaring Rose a better player than 2008 LeBron, and in the mean time getting his agenda in his 'argument' (2011 East more diluted doe, meaning when LeBron made the finals the conference was more diluted, but the finals opponent Kobe had in 2008 came from a less diluted one, lol), and disregarding stats he previouly held in high regards.

Why would me saying their situations are very similar make me obsessed with rose? Both great rs's.. both knocked out by big 3s with great defenses in the playoffs.. compared their similarities said bron had a little less help..

And I have you guys responding to me within a minute after hours gap in responses.

What does that say about your mad levels how much youre waiting lol?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

tpols rustling Bran jimmies.. :lol

Regardless of who you compare them to AND how good you think they are, the Cavs teams from 08-10 are underrated AF. :confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

tpols rustling Bran jimmies.. :lol

Regardless of who you compare them to AND how good you think they are, the Cavs teams from 08-10 are underrated AF. :confusedshrug:

How do you define under-rated?

The 08 Cavs were a team of:

West
Big Z
Wally
Givson
Wallace
Joe Smith
Andy

Seems to me that someone that compares them to a legit title contending team is the one off base.

So a 45 win Cavs team that couldn't do shit the second Lebron leaves the court is under-rated as ****? Who is rating them?

Calling them not a contender is under rating them?

Please....

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

How do you define under-rated?

The 08 Cavs were a team of:

West
Big Z
Wally
Givson
Wallace
Joe Smith
Andy

Seems to me that someone that compares them to a legit title contending team is the one off base.

So a 45 win Cavs team that couldn't do shit the second Lebron leaves the court is under-rated as ****? Who is rating them?

Calling them not a contender is under rating them?

Please....

I think they're underrated when people claim he played with shit...when LeBron himself played like ass, and despite that, taking the BEST team to a 7th game.

BTW those on/off court stats don't tell us whether other starters are on the floor or not...they're not very relevant tbh

[DMAVS41]

I think they're underrated when people claim he played with shit...when LeBron himself played like ass, and despite that, taking the BEST team to a 7th game.

BTW those on/off court stats don't tell us whether other starters are on the floor or not...they're not very relevant tbh

Yea...I agree....they weren't complete shit.


Actually those on/off stats are relevant. It tells you how the team was able to perform without Lebron/Rose on the court.

I've never understood this...it doesn't matter if other starters are still out there or it's all bench...it's about how good a team is with and without their star player.

And it's a very telling number when evaluating supporting casts. Very rarely is a great supporting cast going to have a huge negative scoring differential without 1 player...even if it's top heavy on talent like Shaq/Kobe or Lebron/Wade/Bosh. It can happen no doubt, but it's very rare...and the 08 Cavs aren't one of those examples. They just weren't good enough even with Lebron out there....they only had a plus 2.4 scoring differential with Lebron...that just isn't a great team. It's average help at best...

The fact that the Bulls were much better both with Rose on the court and without Rose on the court than the Cavs were with/without Lebron is extremely telling.

Your assertion doesn't make sense.

[ArbitraryWater]

I think they're underrated when people claim he played with shit...when LeBron himself played like ass, and despite that, taking the BEST team to a 7th game.

BTW those on/off court stats don't tell us whether other starters are on the floor or not...they're not very relevant tbh

How do you explain that team going 0-7 without LeBron? The massive drop off once he leaves the court?

It's really not hard to see that was mediocre help, at best... capable defenses and zero offensive threats.

Who was the best player on the 37 win Hawks? Was that team now also not pretty bad?

[DMAVS41]

How do you explain that team going 0-7 without LeBron? The massive drop off once he leaves the court?

It's really not hard to see that was mediocre help, at best... capable defenses and zero offensive threats.

Who was the best player on the 37 win Hawks? Was that team now also not pretty bad?

Yea...I don't get this.

It doesn't matter if it's starters or bench.

It's a great stat for looking at supporting cast help. How does a team perform with and without it's star player?

The Bulls killed teams both with and without Rose....

Just look at with Lebron and with Rose if you want....the Bulls were way better. They outscored teams by close to 9 points per 100 while the Cavs outscored teams by less than 3 or whatever it was.

They actually think Rose is roughly 6 points better per 100 possessions than Lebron? That that was the difference in these "similar" teams? Rose? :facepalm

Even for tpols....that is absurdly dumb.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yea...I agree....they weren't complete shit.


Actually those on/off stats are relevant. It tells you how the team was able to perform without Lebron/Rose on the court.

I'm not gonna say that LeBron's Cleveland teams were top heavy or anything, but they've always been reliant on their starters. So in this case, we only get valid info depending on whether the starters were playing.

Simple on/off stats are practically rendered useless here.


The fact that the Bulls were much better both with Rose on the court and without Rose on the court than the Cavs were with/without Lebron is extremely telling.

Your assertion doesn't make sense.

The Bulls comparison is between you and tpols. I'm not saying Rose's help is or wasn't better, but the way you're arguing and using these stats leaves too much room for error.

[knicksman]

They were having first time jitters just like gsw this season. We all knew what bos is capable once the pressure is off like what they did in 2010 with a better cle and bran.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

How do you explain that team going 0-7 without LeBron? The massive drop off once he leaves the court?

It's really not hard to see that was mediocre help, at best... capable defenses and zero offensive threats.

Who was the best player on the 37 win Hawks? Was that team now also not pretty bad?

Atlanta had dozens of injuries in the regular season, and actually had all of their starters healthy in the playoffs. So that 37 win stuff is peanut butter and jelly. Fluff if you will.

I think the Cavs' strong suit was their defense and rebounding. Not a great cast by any means, just better than average though. Not sure why people on here are acting like LeBron played with Kwame Brown and Smush Parker. :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

Using on/off stats with one of the best starters, on a team that's top heavy and relies heavily on their starters won't tell you anything.

I'm not gonna say that LeBron's Cleveland teams were top heavy or anything, but they've always been reliant on their starters. So in this case, we only get valid info depending on whether the starters were playing.

Simple on/off stats are practically rendered useless here.



The Bulls comparison is between you and tpols. I'm not saying Rose's help is or wasn't better, but the way you're arguing and using these stats leaves too much room for error.

Don't follow your logic. Of course context is needed, but on/off stats are a pretty good indicator of help.

See...if the Cavs were actually great with Lebron...but were still shit without him...I'd factor that in.

But they weren't very good with him....and were terrible without him.

That is a lot different.

Context is always needed...hence why you don't just look at only one thing.


A perfect example of this is the 11 Mavs. They were -5.4 points per 100 without Dirk...so okay...we look at that and one might say they weren't a good supporting cast on their own....and there is some truth to that.

However, when you look at it and see that the Mavs raped teams to the tune of 10.6 points per 100 with Dirk on the court....you realize that while they weren't great without Dirk...the pieces all fit together very well with him out there.

See? Context.

With Rose in 11...they were great both with and without. Good evidence it was rock solid help.

In 08...the Cavs were barely above break even with Lebron....and really poor without him. Good evidence his help wasn't very good.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Don't follow your logic. Of course context is needed, but on/off stats are a pretty good indicator of help.

See...if the Cavs were actually great with Lebron...but were still shit without him...I'd factor that in.

But you're missing the point.

LeBron's off/on court stats could include bench players. Look at the names you just listed. That's not a very deep team...by any means.

I want to know how well the Cavs' core did. The guys who actually rebounded and played defense. Without that, it's a stat that doesn't tell me anything. Or at least anything I didn't already know.


With Rose in 11...they were great both with and without. Good evidence it was rock solid help.

I'm not comparing LeBron to Rose here, or the differences in help.

I think we can all agree from top to bottom, the Bulls were superior. Does tpols disagree with that or something?


In 08...the Cavs were barely above break even with Lebron....and really poor without him. Good evidence his help wasn't very good.

That also tells us that with LeBron on the court, even while playing like absolute trash, his teams were still competing (and took the best team to a 7th game). Was it with him on the court? Yeah...but I never said that without him they'd be good or great. Again that was never my argument.

[DMAVS41]

But you're missing the point.

LeBron's off/on court stats could include bench players. Look at the names you just listed. That's not a very deep team...by any means.

I want to know how well the Cavs' core did. The guys who actually rebounded and played defense. Without that, it's a stat that doesn't tell me anything. Or at least anything I didn't already know.



I'm not comparing LeBron to Rose here, or the differences in help.

I think we can all agree from top to bottom, the Bulls were superior. Does tpols disagree with that or something?



That also tells us that with LeBron on the court, even while playing like absolute trash, his teams were still competing (and took the best team to a 7th game). Was it with him on the court? Yeah...but I never said that without him they'd be good or great. Again that was never my argument.


I'm just not following you here. On/off doesn't matter for what you are talking about. It's about how a team actually performs with and with the player in question.

How well did the core do? They did enough to win 45 games and barely outscore teams on the whole....you still have to play bench guys in the playoffs...

I get your point, but lets not act like the Cavs "core" was anything more than average players.

If you look at that team...45 wins...not great with lebron...pretty poor without him. then just look at the individual talent...it's blatantly obvious it wasn't a very good team.

And you are talking about a playoff series....and at that...really like 4 games max. That isn't enough to extrapolate a bunch of reliable conclusions.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'm just not following you here. On/off doesn't matter for what you are talking about. It's about how a team actually performs with and with the player in question.

Off the court stats don't include bench players' production?

News to me.


How well did the core do? They did enough to win 45 games and barely outscore teams on the whole....you still have to play bench guys in the playoffs...

If you look at that team...45 wins...not great with lebron...pretty poor without him. then just look at the individual talent...it's blatantly obvious it wasn't a very good team.


I assume you're talking about Wallace/West/Varejao/Szczerbiak...because those guys missed a substantial amount of time in the regular season, while Wallace and Szczerbiak came midway thru a trade. Their "45 games" won does them a huge disservice.

I preach context all the time, and applying it here is no different.


And you are talking about a playoff series....and at that...really like 4 games max. That isn't enough to extrapolate a bunch of reliable conclusions.

Well that isn't including the team they beat before Boston. But yeah. More than enough of a sample to judge how good they were post trades/when healthy.

[ArbitraryWater]

Atlanta had dozens of injuries in the regular season, and actually had all of their starters healthy in the playoffs. So that 37 win stuff is peanut butter and jelly. Fluff if you will.

I think the Cavs' strong suit was their defense and rebounding. Not a great cast by any means, just better than average though. Not sure why people on here are acting like LeBron played with Kwame Brown and Smush Parker. :oldlol:

I'm sure LeBron would have loved to play with Odom, a nice 2nd option.. Brown and Smush get clowned alot, probably too much due to their names.. statistically Smush was alot better than any guard help LeBron had the past 2 finals (Wade was dog shit in 2014, and when you actually erase his game 4+game 5 late stat padding, his stats ****ing resemble those of Smush), main factor is, these guys weren't out there bricking shot after shot... knew their role, remained efficient with limited touches, Brown was also one of the better post defenders... Smush's 06 line actually ready very nicely.

Also, to your other posts, lets not act like Szerbiak and a broken down Wallace were world beaters here :oldlol:

I think the on/off shows its validity in the fact that the team couldn't win a single game out of 7 without LeBron, no? :confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

Off the court stats don't include bench players' production?

News to me.



I assume you're talking about Wallace/West/Varejao/Szczerbiak...because those guys missed a substantial amount of time in the regular season, while Wallace and Szczerbiak came midway thru a trade. Their "45 games" won does them a huge disservice.

I preach context all the time, and applying it here is no different.



Well that isn't including the team they beat before Boston. But yeah. More than enough of a sample to judge how good they were post trades/when healthy.


What do you mean it doesn't include bench?

It simply shows you how a team performs with and without a player...it's of course not the end all be all.

You make it sound like a didn't just write a response to you detailing how you have to look at each individual situation...

And I earlier brought up the injuries/trades...

I earlier also said that, in the Boston series, Lebron "potentially" had ehough help to win that series. I'd probably just say "he did" have enough help, but Boston was clearly playing down to their opponents at that time.

Also not sure about the Wizards series mention. I'd expect a Lebron led team of that caliber to win in 6.

Just don't see any other way but to get to a spot of saying that Cavs team was a good, but not great supporting cast...that wasn't championship caliber.

While also saying Lebron played a terrible first 2 games, really good last 3 games, but overall a poor series.

I just can't move off that knowing the evidence and the value of the individual players on that team....

I know you aren't doing it, but comparing that team to the Bulls...or Lebron's overall performance in that series to Rose in 11...just no.

Lebron clearly had worse help on both sides of the ball...and also clearly faced a much tougher defense to boot. Just not comparable supporting casts at all.

Which is what this really was about....I never once said the 08 Cavs were a terrible team with Lebron or Lebron didn't have a chance to beat the Celtics with them.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

What do you mean it doesn't include bench?

It simply shows you how a team performs with and without a player...it's of course not the end all be all.

I earlier also said that, in the Boston series, Lebron "potentially" had ehough help to win that series. I'd probably just say "he did" have enough help, but Boston was clearly playing down to their opponents at that time.

I know you aren't doing it, but comparing that team to the Bulls...or Lebron's overall performance in that series to Rose in 11...just no.

Lebron clearly had worse help on both sides of the ball...and also clearly faced a much tougher defense to boot. Just not comparable supporting casts at all.

Which is what this really was about....I never once said the 08 Cavs were a terrible team with Lebron or Lebron didn't have a chance to beat the Celtics with them.

That's fairly obvious.

What I'm saying is while using these stats, wouldn't we be remiss not to point out their sustained injuries, trades, and lack of depth...something the Cavs have always had issues with?

Seems like you're keen on using this on/off stuff, but refuse to apply context with it. :confusedshrug:

I can agree that LeBron "potentially" had enough help, and that Boston probably took them as lightweight. I would also agree with the Bulls being a far better team. As for Rose and LeBron? Hell, I'd take the 2006 version over 2011 Rose even. :oldlol:

BTW my first post wasn't addressing you specifically. Was just kinda throwing it out there...

[DMAVS41]

That's fairly obvious.

What I'm saying is while using these on/off court stats, wouldn't we be remiss not to point out their sustained injuries, trades, and lack of depth...something the Cavs have always had issues with?

Seems like you're keen on using this on/off stuff, but refuse to apply context with it. :confusedshrug:

I can agree that LeBron "potentially" had enough help, and that Boston probably took them as lightweight. I would also agree with the Bulls being the far better team. As for Rose and LeBron? Hell, I'd take the 2006 version over 2011 Rose even. :oldlol

My first post wasn't addressing you specifically BTW. Was just kinda throwing it out there...


Yea...I think we agree here.

I wasn't solely using on/off anyway...and I brought up the injuries as well. But I'm also not going crazy over a team of players like the 08 Cavs had...they weren't anything other than an alright supporting cast.

I feel like this is getting confused because of that Bulls comparison. I have no issue with someone saying the 08 Cavs weren't a team full of scrubs with no chance to win....because I don't think that at all.

What I do think, however, is that they were nowhere near as good as the 11 Bulls for a variety of reasons.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'm sure LeBron would have loved to play with Odom, a nice 2nd option.. Brown and Smush get clowned alot, probably too much due to their names.. statistically Smush was alot better than any guard help LeBron had the past 2 finals (Wade was dog shit in 2014, and when you actually erase his game 4+game 5 late stat padding, his stats ****ing resemble those of Smush), main factor is, these guys weren't out there bricking shot after shot... knew their role, remained efficient with limited touches, Brown was also one of the better post defenders... Smush's 06 line actually ready very nicely.

He really wasn't. There's a reason why after the Heat picked up his contract, he spent the rest of his basketball career in China. The guy is a scrub and a complete headcase. Kwame "don't pass me the ball because I'm afraid I'll lose it" Brown in the same boat with him.

For your sake, I hope a statistical comparison between Smush and Wade is just that...because Wade's knowledge and intangibles absolutely shit on him. Most people would take a hobbled, one-legged Wade over that clown. :oldlol:


Also, to your other posts, lets not act like Szerbiak and a broken down Wallace were world beaters here :oldlol:

Both healthy in the playoffs, and both more than enough to take the Celtics to a close 7th game despite LeBron stinking like a smelly diaper.


I think the on/off shows its validity in the fact that the team couldn't win a single game out of 7 without LeBron, no? :confusedshrug:

Read the last post I just sent to DMAVS. Long as we use some kinda perspective, then I guess it's alright? You guys don't seem to be doing that though.

:confusedshrug:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yea...I think we agree here.

I wasn't solely using on/off anyway...and I brought up the injuries as well. But I'm also not going crazy over a team of players like the 08 Cavs had...they weren't anything other than an alright supporting cast.

I feel like this is getting confused because of that Bulls comparison. I have no issue with someone saying the 08 Cavs weren't a team full of scrubs with no chance to win....because I don't think that at all.

What I do think, however, is that they were nowhere near as good as the 11 Bulls for a variety of reasons.

We agree more than you think, my friend. :cheers:

[DMAVS41]

We agree more than you think, my friend. :cheers:

Yea, but you are fun to argue with because you make sense and offer valid points.

:cheers: