2008 Celtics Vs 2012 Heat (both fully healthy)

[Rose'sACL]

Who wins in a 7 game series?

I am taking 2012 heat based on talent if bosh is healthy.

[ArbitraryWater]

You will hear alot of "if the Heat needed 7 against the 2012 Celtics, they will definitely not beat the 2008 Celtics" here.

[Droid101]

You will hear alot of "if the Heat needed 7 against the 2012 Celtics, they will definitely not beat the 2008 Celtics" here.
Which is absolutely true. 2008 Celtics easily.

[Rose'sACL]

Which is absolutely true. 2008 Celtics easily.
Heat were actually missing bosh unlike 2008 celtics who were not missing kg, allen or pierce when they got taken to 7 games against hawks and cavs.

[Ne 1]

Heat were actually missing bosh unlike 2008 celtics who were not missing kg, allen or pierce when they got taken to 7 games against hawks and cavs.

Just because a veteran, older team coasted on away games doesnt mean they wouldn't beat the Heat. Sure, they should have swept the Hawks and beaten the Cavs in 5-6 but they didnt, they dominated the regular season and looked more dominant in the ECFs and the Finlas but coasted, especially in the early rounds of the playoffs, they didn't show up in away games like they did at home because they knew they had the HCA. The '08 team had elite rebounding, 3pt shooting and major post presence in KG. None of that was the case in 2011 or 2012. Not to mention the bench, Cassell, House, Tony Allen, Posey, PJ Brown and Leon Powe... that's a nasty bench. One of the greatest defensive teams in the history of the league.

[Prime_Shaq]

2008 Celtics.

[Rose'sACL]

Just because a veteran, older team coasted on away games doesnt mean they wouldn't beat the Heat. Sure, they should have swept the Hawks and beaten the Cavs in 5-6 but they didnt, they dominated the regular season and looked more dominant in the ECFs and the Finlas but coasted, especially in the early rounds of the playoffs, they didn't show up in away games like they did at home because they knew they had the HCA. The '08 team had elite rebounding, 3pt shooting and major post presence in KG. None of that was the case in 2011 or 2012. Not to mention the bench, Cassell, House, Tony Allen, Posey, PJ Brown and Leon Powe... that's a nasty bench. One of the greatest defensive teams in the history of the league.

And what about 2012 heat?
LeBron>>pierce
Wade>Allen
Bosh<KG

Their defense was great but heat's defense wasn't too far behind while being better offensively.
I think the series would go to 7 games and 2012 heat would win.

[dubeta]

Well, LeBron took the 2008 Celtics to 7 games with a bunch of scrubs back then ....


I'd assume LeBron with Wade and Bosh would be enough to take them out



Just cause Kobe choked against them in the finals, doesnt make them invincible

[livinglegend]

Well, LeBron took the 2008 Celtics to 7 games with a bunch of scrubs back then ....


I'd assume LeBron with Wade and Bosh would be enough to take them out



Just cause Kobe choked against them in the finals, doesnt make them invincible
:roll: :roll: :roll:

Best response to this thread!

[ArbitraryWater]

Well, LeBron took the 2008 Celtics to 7 games with a bunch of scrubs back then ....


I'd assume LeBron with Wade and Bosh would be enough to take them out

oh shit, totally forgot that angle :lol

[LikeABosh]

Which is absolutely true. 2008 Celtics easily.
"(both fully healthy)"

[SouBeachTalents]

The 2011 Heat are the most dangerous version of them imo. You had a more flawed LeBron sure, but still had peak Wade with Bosh having big playoff series

[TheMarkMadsen]

oh shit, totally forgot that angle :lol

yeah probrably because that "cast of scrubs" somehow managed to overcome lebron shooting 8 for 42 through the first two games.. didn't have a game above 35% shooting until game 5.. shot 35% for the series with 5 turnovers per game and yet the CAVS still took the series to 7

[Black and White]

Celtics would win, it would be a great series though, I think our post presence is where we would win the series, truth and lbj would go at it, I just think our defence would hold fort against the Heat offense

[livinglegend]

yeah probrably because that "cast of scrubs" somehow managed to overcome lebron shooting 8 for 42 through the first two games.. didn't have a game above 35% shooting until game 5.. shot 35% for the series with 5 turnovers per game and yet the CAVS still took the series to 7

just shows how overrated those celtics were.
Healthy 2012 Heat shit on them.

:djparty

[livinglegend]

Celtics would win, it would be a great series though, I think our post presence is where we would win the series, truth and lbj would go at it, I just think our defence would hold fort against the Heat offense

What post presence? Perkins? :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Kvnzhangyay]

The 2011 Heat are the most dangerous version of them imo. You had a more flawed LeBron sure, but still had peak Wade with Bosh having big playoff series

Role players were much worse in '11

[Black and White]

What post presence? Perkins? :oldlol: :oldlol:

KG and don't think that Perk was the player that we see today, his value went further than stats

[livinglegend]

The 2011 Heat are the most dangerous version of them imo. You had a more flawed LeBron sure, but still had peak Wade with Bosh having big playoff series

They started Bibby/Arroyo and Joel/Igauskaus .


no

[livinglegend]

KG and don't think that Perk was the player that we see today, his value went further than stats

2012 Lebron was a better post player than KG.
Heat had more post presence with Wade and Lebron.

[unknowns8]

Just because a veteran, older team coasted on away games doesnt mean they wouldn't beat the Heat. Sure, they should have swept the Hawks and beaten the Cavs in 5-6 but they didnt, they dominated the regular season and looked more dominant in the ECFs and the Finlas but coasted, especially in the early rounds of the playoffs, they didn't show up in away games like they did at home because they knew they had the HCA. The '08 team had elite rebounding, 3pt shooting and major post presence in KG. None of that was the case in 2011 or 2012. Not to mention the bench, Cassell, House, Tony Allen, Posey, PJ Brown and Leon Powe... that's a nasty bench. One of the greatest defensive teams in the history of the league.


:applause: :applause:

EDIT: just to say the 2008 Celtics would win the series 4-1 easily

[Rose'sACL]

KG and don't think that Perk was the player that we see today, his value went further than stats
i don't count kg as real post presence. He settled for way too many mid range jumpers which is why i rate 2012 heat as the better team than 2008 celtics. Your big man should be able to bang in the post like duncan could and still can for short stretches. KG can't back his man down much. Duncan gave heat so much problem because he would just overpower heat's big men.

The little problem heat had on offense was when bosh was not playing otherwise they were a beast on offense while playing on a slow pace.
Celtics always used to struggle for short stretches on offense.

[unknowns8]

2012 Lebron was a better post player than KG.
Heat had more post presence with Wade and Lebron.


:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

[Droid101]

2012 Lebron was a better post player than KG.
Heat had more post presence with Wade and Lebron.
:roll:

Holy shit the delusion.

[SouBeachTalents]

Role players were much worse in '11


They started Bibby/Arroyo and Joel/Igauskaus .


no

I realize the role players and other starters were worse, but neither of the championship teams came close to dominating the playoffs as the 2011 Heat did. Rolled through the first 3 rounds of the playoffs on a 12-3 run, against their most legit East playoff competition to boot, and if LeBron plays up to snuff in the Finals they beat the Mavs in 4-5 games. The 2012 & 2013 Heat were much more vulnerable during their playoff runs

[Sharmer]

Some important facts for consideration, the Celtic's were a first-year team that won 66 games. They were also a team that played better progressively during the Playoffs. They comprehensively beat the Lakers in 08, and came very close in 10, when losing in the 4th after being up 13 points. I think they are far superior to any of the Heat teams.

[Rose'sACL]

:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:
that is true. he is talking about "back your man down" type of physical post play, not KG's post play which was based on jump shots.

Hibbert and Duncan gave heat the most problem because they have the physical tools to do it even though hibbert is shit. I think 2012 heat match up very well with 2008 celtics.

[ArbitraryWater]

The 2011 Heat are the most dangerous version of them imo. You had a more flawed LeBron sure, but still had peak Wade with Bosh having big playoff series

yea, 2011 Heat would shred alot of champions & teams of the past.. their best version.

[livinglegend]

I realize the role players and other starters were worse, but neither of the championship teams came close to dominating the playoffs as the 2011 Heat did. Rolled through the first 3 rounds of the playoffs on a 12-3 run, against their most legit East playoff competition to boot, and if LeBron plays up to snuff in the Finals they beat the Mavs in 4-5 games. The 2012 & 2013 Heat were much more vulnerable during their playoff runs

That's because 2012 Heat wasn't healthy.
They dominated OKC when healthy.

[Rose'sACL]

I realize the role players and other starters were worse, but neither of the championship teams came close to dominating the playoffs as the 2011 Heat did. Rolled through the first 3 rounds of the playoffs on a 12-3 run, against their most legit East playoff competition to boot, and if LeBron plays up to snuff in the Finals they beat the Mavs in 4-5 games. The 2012 & 2013 Heat were much more vulnerable during their playoff runs
that is because bosh was hurt during pacers and celtics series. bosh was the guy who got lane open leading to better more efficient offense.
2012 heat would defeat 2011 heat in 6 games.

[livinglegend]

that is true. he is talking about "back your man down" type of physical post play, not KG's post play which was based on jump shots.

Hibbert and Duncan gave heat the most problem because they have the physical tools to do it even though hibbert is shit. I think 2012 heat match up very well with 2008 celtics.

I'm pretty sure Lebron scored more from the post than KG did.
Do you know where I could find those stats?

[Rose'sACL]

I'm pretty sure Lebron scored more from the post than KG did.
Do you know where I could find those stats?
no idea but lebron scored pretty much all of his points in the paint in 2012 playoffs as it was his goal that season. You can read about it in a zach lowe article on grantland.

[Suguru101]

I realize the role players and other starters were worse, but neither of the championship teams came close to dominating the playoffs as the 2011 Heat did. Rolled through the first 3 rounds of the playoffs on a 12-3 run, against their most legit East playoff competition to boot, and if LeBron plays up to snuff in the Finals they beat the Mavs in 4-5 games. The 2012 & 2013 Heat were much more vulnerable during their playoff runs

This argument needs to be thrown out. "IF" LeBron plays up to snuff?

He didn't have a post game, his head wasn't in the right place. You can't just say the 2011 were better "IF" LeBron plays up to his standards, LeBron was a worse and more vulnerable player in 2011 than he was in 2012.

Also, Shane Battier, healthier Miller/Haslem, better Chalmers and having Norris Cole >>> Arroyo/Bibby/Dampier/Anthony.

Small ball also >

[livinglegend]

no idea but lebron scored pretty much all of his points in the paint in 2012 playoffs as it was his goal that season. You can read about it in a zach lowe article on grantland.

yeah, and Wade scored a lot from the post against Pacers.
They were both great from the post in 2012.
I just need stats to back up my point.
I didn't find it on bballreference, so I am done searching.

[SouBeachTalents]

This argument needs to be thrown out. "IF" LeBron plays up to snuff?

He didn't have a post game, his head wasn't in the right place. You can't just say the 2011 were better "IF" LeBron plays up to his standards, LeBron was a worse and more vulnerable player in 2011 than he was in 2012.

Also, Shane Battier, healthier Miller/Haslem, better Chalmers and having Norris Cole >>> Arroyo/Bibby/Dampier/Anthony.

Small ball also >

I don't argue that, I agree LeBron was a better player in 2012 & 2013, but if you're going to pretend LeBron didn't underperform at historic and shocking levels in the 2011 Finals, then I'm not sure what else to argue. He played like dogshit in the Finals and the Heat STILL almost won the title.

So yes, if the LeBron that was averaging 26 ppg and locking down the MVP in the first 3 rounds of the playoffs plays up to that level, or even just a notch or two below, the Heat beat the Mavs rather easily

[ArbitraryWater]

2011-2013 Heat are all pretty close.. but the value of having 2 top 3 players on one team is HUGE... and rare. Think the 2001 Lakers.
The 2001 Lakers lost 0 games until the finals, the 2011 Heat lost 3, against tougher competition (either the Bulls or Celtics were better than any 2001 West team besides LAL, Blazers had peaked the year before, Kings would peak the subsequent year, Spurs were all Duncan).

And they looked REALLY dominant against the Mavs, until they crumbled with a 15 point lead and 6 minutes left in game 2. I was so damn hopeless when I watched that live lol.. my friend was a Heat fan but more of a casual, he tried to cheer me up like 'it will be okay dude', then the comeback started and I couldn't believe it until it was over... suddenly I was the happy one lol, I took it alot more serious than he did though.

[livinglegend]

I don't argue that, I agree LeBron was a better player in 2012 & 2013, but if you're going to pretend LeBron didn't underperform at historic and shocking levels in the 2011 Finals, then I'm not sure what else to argue. He played like dogshit in the Finals and the Heat STILL almost won the title.

So yes, if the LeBron that was averaging 26 ppg and locking down the MVP in the first 3 rounds of the playoffs plays up to that level, or even just a notch or two below, the Heat beat the Mavs rather easily

Let's stick to the actual situation instead of hypotheticals.
Based on their actual play, 2012 Lebron > 2011 Lebron.
2011 Wade > 2012 Wade
2012 Bosh = 2011 Bosh
2011 role players <<<< 2012 role players

[Rose'sACL]

I don't argue that, I agree LeBron was a better player in 2012 & 2013, but if you're going to pretend LeBron didn't underperform at historic and shocking levels in the 2011 Finals, then I'm not sure what else to argue. He played like dogshit in the Finals and the Heat STILL almost won the title.

So yes, if the LeBron that was averaging 26 ppg and locking down the MVP in the first 3 rounds of the playoffs plays up to that level, or even just a notch or two below, the Heat beat the Mavs rather easily
heat would have lost in 5 games against thunder if lebron played like he played against mavs in 2011 finals.

2012 finals durant> 2011 finals dirk.

[catch24]

2008 Celtics.

How close it would be? Not entirely sure. Wade/Bosh/LeBron all healthy would be a tough trio to stop. For sure. But the Celtics' defense is one I trust - the SAME team who held Kobe, LeBron and Wade below league average efficiency.

[Rose'sACL]

2008 Celtics.

How close it would be? Not entirely sure. Wade/Bosh/LeBron all healthy would be a tough trio to stop. For sure. But the Celtics' defense is one I trust - the SAME team who held Kobe, LeBron and Wade below league average efficiency.
2012 heat's defense wasn't much worse.

[Black and White]

2012 Lebron was a better post player than KG.
Heat had more post presence with Wade and Lebron.

LeBron that year was focused on efficiency, so I don't deny that he would have probably score more, what I meant by that post was our frontcourt > the Heats.

Not going to deny though, it would be a tough series

[catch24]

2012 heat's defense wasn't much worse.

Both teams' offenses are closer than their respective defenses.

An anchor like KG in the middle...with Posey and Allen (Tony) on the wing? That's a scary trio if healthy.

[dubeta]

Give LeBron any player who can average 17+ ppg and he beats the 2008 Celtics, rather easily I must say

[livinglegend]

LeBron that year was focused on efficiency, so I don't deny that he would have probably score more, what I meant by that post was our frontcourt > the Heats.

Not going to deny though, it would be a tough series

No.
Lebron/Battier/Bosh > Pierce/Garnett/Perkins

[Rose'sACL]

Both teams' offenses are closer than their respective defenses.

An anchor like KG in the middle...with Posey and Allen (Tony) on the wing? That's a scary trio if healthy.
Actually no. their defenses are closer than you think. their offenses are also not as close as you think. Go check.

[Black and White]

No.
Lebron/Battier/Bosh > Pierce/Garnett/Perkins

I disagree with you, no point arguing it really because we won't get anywhere, and the Celtics role players > the Heats,

If this finals was anything to go by, you would know how important that is.

[Milbuck]

And they looked REALLY dominant against the Mavs, until they crumbled with a 15 point lead and 6 minutes left in game 2. I was so damn hopeless when I watched that live lol.. my friend was a Heat fan but more of a casual, he tried to cheer me up like 'it will be okay dude', then the comeback started and I couldn't believe it until it was over... suddenly I was the happy one lol, I took it alot more serious than he did though.
Dude, the Mavs suck now. You don't have to pretend you're a fan anymore.

[Suguru101]

I don't argue that, I agree LeBron was a better player in 2012 & 2013, but if you're going to pretend LeBron didn't underperform at historic and shocking levels in the 2011 Finals, then I'm not sure what else to argue. He played like dogshit in the Finals and the Heat STILL almost won the title.

So yes, if the LeBron that was averaging 26 ppg and locking down the MVP in the first 3 rounds of the playoffs plays up to that level, or even just a notch or two below, the Heat beat the Mavs rather easily

He didn't just underperform for no ****ing reason. He underperformed because of the way the Dallas defense was set up, because of their schemes and zones, and because he didn't have a post up game to counter that kind of defense.

So you can't just hypothetically re-roll the dice and think LeBron would solve everything the Dallas defense threw at him just because. He didn't have the skill set to do it. Would he do better? Maybe.

But he wouldn't magically play to his normal level. That team, with prime Tyson Chandler at center, still defensively great Shawn Marion, and a Zone scheme that shifted to other stuff through out the game to confuse LeBron, was well equipped to handle 2011 LeBron's game.

And i didn't even mention that they wouldn't beat Dallas, i'm talking about you saying they are better than a 2012 Heat team that had a Peak LeBron (29-11-7), 23-6-4 Wade, and instead of Mike Bibby and a limping Haslem/Miller, a scrub Chalmers, and the corpse of Ilgauskas... had Shane Battier, who allowed them to play small ball, healthy Haslem/ok Miller, 25 points in a Finals game Chalmers, and Norris Cole.

F out of here with that bull shit. 2012 Heat are better than the 2011 ever could be. They would small ball the **** out of them. And 2011 LeBron would probably get defended by Mario ****ing Chalmers and he wouldn't have a post game to do shit against it.

[livinglegend]

I disagree with you, no point arguing it really because we won't get anywhere, and the Celtics role players > the Heats,

If this finals was anything to go by, you would know how important that is.

You right about the bold part.
We are both talking in hypotheticals.
We could say all the shit we want.

[dubeta]

He didn't just underperform for no ****ing reason. He underperformed because of the way the Dallas defense was set up, because of their schemes and zones, and because he didn't have a post up game to counter that kind of defense.

So you can't just hypothetically re-roll the dice and think LeBron would solve everything the Dallas defense threw at him just because. He didn't have the skill set to do it. Would he do better? Maybe.

But he wouldn't magically play to his normal level. That team, with prime Tyson Chandler at center, still defensively great Shawn Marion, and a Zone scheme that shifted to other stuff through out the game to confuse LeBron, was well equipped to handle 2011 LeBron's game.

And i didn't even mention that they wouldn't beat Dallas, i'm talking about you saying they are better than a 2012 Heat team that had a Peak LeBron (29-11-7), 23-6-4 Wade, and instead of Mike Bibby and a limping Haslem/Miller, a scrub Chalmers, and the corpse of Ilgauskas... had Shane Battier, who allowed them to play small ball, healthy Haslem/ok Miller, 25 points in a Finals game Chalmers, and Norris Cole.

F out of here with that bull shit. 2012 Heat are better than the 2011 ever could be. They would small ball the **** out of them. And 2011 LeBron would probably get defended by Mario ****ing Chalmers and he wouldn't have a post game to do shit against it.


This, Dallas played to LeBrons weaknesses, trapped him, and made Wade and Bosh try to beat them.

[ArbitraryWater]

I disagree with you, no point arguing it really because we won't get anywhere, and the Celtics role players > the Heats,

If this finals was anything to go by, you would know how important that is.

How could you possibly disagree?

LeBron >>> Pierce
Wade >> Allen
KG >> Bosh

[Suguru101]

2011-2013 Heat are all pretty close.. but the value of having 2 top 3 players on one team is HUGE... and rare. Think the 2001 Lakers.
The 2001 Lakers lost 0 games until the finals, the 2011 Heat lost 3, against tougher competition (either the Bulls or Celtics were better than any 2001 West team besides LAL, Blazers had peaked the year before, Kings would peak the subsequent year, Spurs were all Duncan).

And they looked REALLY dominant against the Mavs, until they crumbled with a 15 point lead and 6 minutes left in game 2. I was so damn hopeless when I watched that live lol.. my friend was a Heat fan but more of a casual, he tried to cheer me up like 'it will be okay dude', then the comeback started and I couldn't believe it until it was over... suddenly I was the happy one lol, I took it alot more serious than he did though.

2011 Wade: 26-6-5
2012 Wade: 23-6-4

Meanwhile, Shane Battier allowed the Heat to play small ball, and the other role players were better than Bibby and Ilgauskas. But that isn't enough to make up a 3 point difference...

Oh, never mind that 2012 LeBron shits on 2011 LeBron.

God. ****ing. Damn.

Why do i even bother. :facepalm

[ArbitraryWater]

yea yea, small ball okay.. the difference between 2011 and 2012 Wade is quite a noticeable one, and no matter how many times you say it, I don't think the great Mavs defense with their schemes was the reason for LeBron's choke... Stevenson n Marion, I'm sure, got into his head very well, but it felt more so like the circumstances of the first season..

how do you explain the 2011 Heat beating superior East competition in more dominant fashion than the 2012 and 2013 Heat?

[livinglegend]

2011 Wade: 26-6-5
2012 Wade: 23-6-4

Meanwhile, Shane Battier allowed the Heat to play small ball, and the other role players were better than Bibby and Ilgauskas. But that isn't enough to make up a 3 point difference...

Oh, never mind that 2012 LeBron shits on 2011 LeBron.

God. ****ing. Damn.

Why do i even bother. :facepalm

Good post
:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[catch24]

Actually no. their defenses are closer than you think. their offenses are also not as close as you think. Go check.

You cannot compare a full year of data to that of a lockout season...if that's what you mean by "checking".

When both squads are healthy, the Celtics have a better defense and system in place to run their principles (Thibs was still their assistant coach). Not really sure how they're close in that regard, but whatever.

[livinglegend]

yea yea, small ball okay.. the difference between 2011 and 2012 Wade is quite a noticeable one, and no matter how many times you say it, I don't think the great Mavs defense with their schemes was the reason for LeBron's choke... Stevenson n Marion, I'm sure, got into his head very well, but it felt more so like the circumstances of the first season..

how do you explain the 2011 Heat beating superior East competition in more dominant fashion than the 2012 and 2013 Heat?

Injured Bosh in 2012

[Black and White]

How could you possibly disagree?

LeBron >>> Pierce
Wade >> Allen
KG >> Bosh

Our role players >>>>>>

[livinglegend]

You cannot compare a full season of data to that of a lockout season...if that's what you mean by "checking".

When both squads are healthy, the Celtics have a better defense and system in place to run their principles (Thibs was still their assistant coach). Not really sure how they're close in that regard.

So basically, you want us to take your words over actual numbers?

[Indian guy]

A first-year Heat team took care of a still-very good Celtics team in 2011 with relative ease. Beat 'em the following year too with no Bosh for 5 games. So I'll go with the team that's actually beaten them multiple times, but it'll be fun to see the vociferous "Heat most stacked EVER!!!!11" crowd, again, pick against Miami when pitted against a former champion. It's such a pathetic dilemma for them :oldlol:. I have never, ever seen Miami actually get picked in a series against a former team. Never. Yet these are the same people who'll turn around and do anything and everything to devalue LeBron's 2 rings by playing the "unfairly stacked" card. Losers.

[Black and White]

You right about the bold part.
We are both talking in hypotheticals.
We could say all the shit we want.

The whole thread is a hypothetical, but its still cool to think about, this was one of the matchups I always wanted to see.

[ArbitraryWater]

A first-year Heat team took care of a still-very good Celtics team in 2011 with relative ease. Beat 'em the following year too with no Bosh for 5 games. So I'll go with the team that's actually beaten them multiple times, but it'll be fun to see the vociferous "Heat most stacked EVER!!!!11" crowd, again, pick against Miami when pitted against a former champion. It's such a pathetic dilemma for them :oldlol:. I have never, ever seen Miami actually get picked in a series against a former team. Never. Yet these are the same people who'll turn around and do anything and everything to devalue LeBron's 2 rings by playing the "unfairly stacked" card. Losers.

bingo

yeah, 2010-2012 C's were all on some similar level

[Rose'sACL]

yea yea, small ball okay.. the difference between 2011 and 2012 Wade is quite a noticeable one, and no matter how many times you say it, I don't think the great Mavs defense with their schemes was the reason for LeBron's choke... Stevenson n Marion, I'm sure, got into his head very well, but it felt more so like the circumstances of the first season..

how do you explain the 2011 Heat beating superior East competition in more dominant fashion than the 2012 and 2013 Heat?
because heat were playing without bosh against pacers and most of the series against celtics.
Are you like most posters on this forum who think that coaches are idiots for placing high value on stretch 4s? Love and bosh get a big out of the paint. This isn't the 80s/90s, your 4 needs to be a good shooter to make the lane even a little open now.

[brownmamba00]

Who's guarding KG tho? Shane battier?

[catch24]

So basically, you want us to take your words over actual numbers?

I'm simply asking that you apply context to a shortened season where there are less games...thus less data

The fact you guys want to draw parallels using DRTG and ORTG over the course of 4-5 seasons? Flawed in and of itself.

[livinglegend]

Our role players >>>>>>

You are underrating Heat's role players.
Battier, Miller, Chalmers, Haslem, Cole is not that bad

[FKAri]

2008 Celtics

[livinglegend]

I'm simply asking that you apply context to a shortened season where there are less games...thus less data to compare.

The fact you guys want to draw parrells using DRTG and ORTG over the course of a 4 or 5 seasons? Flawed in and of itself.

66 games is not that much less.

[livinglegend]

Who's guarding KG tho? Shane battier?

Bosh

[Rose'sACL]

I'm simply asking that you apply context to a shortened season where there are less games...thus less data

The fact you guys want to draw parallels using DRTG and ORTG over the course of 4 or 5 seasons? Flawed in and of itself.
there are enough games for any data if the season has 50+ games. that is not a 20 game season.


Who's guarding KG tho? Shane battier?
bosh. He is just the type of big bosh excels at defending.

[catch24]

66 games is not that much less.

It's enough to sway these statistics. A team playing 14 more games than the other is sort of a big deal... lol

[unknowns8]

that is true. he is talking about "back your man down" type of physical post play, not KG's post play which was based on jump shots.

Hibbert and Duncan gave heat the most problem because they have the physical tools to do it even though hibbert is shit. I think 2012 heat match up very well with 2008 celtics.


you honestly think Lebrons one singular post move i.e backing his man down is a better move and makes Lebron a better post player than KG and his plethora of post moves... :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:


when it comes to offensive work in the post, KG is King when compared to James the pauper

[livinglegend]

It's enough to sway these statistics. A team playing 14 more games than the other is sort of a big deal... lol

no it's not.
By 66 games, we all had a good idea of each team's offensive ratings and defensive ratings this year. They didn't change much after that.

[ArbitraryWater]

It's enough to sway these statistics. A team playing 14 more games than the other is sort of a big deal... lol

16, but if anything the Heat were on their way to a better record.

[Suguru101]

bingo

yeah, 2010-2012 C's were all on some similar level

My dude, are you forgetting about Rondo injuring/breaking his arm in the 2nd game of the 2011 series against the Heat? We're going to act like that didn't make them easier? No? Or did you conveniently forget about that?

Or did you also forget about Bosh being injured for 5 games of the Boston series?

So the superior opponents that the 2011 Heat faced come down to... 2011 Bulls. Because the Celtics had a one arm Rondo. And the 2012 Celtics > 2011 Bulls.

Oh and, if you believe the difference between 26-6-5 Wade vs 23-6-4 Wade is big enough to make up the Heat leaving their "my turn, your turn" offense, for a pace and space small ball with Shane Battier and LeBron as their forwards... and the better role players that 2012 had...

Well. 45-15-5.

45-15-5.

The guy who did that was on the 2012 team.

The guy who scored 8 points in a Finals game was on the 2011 team.

I know who i'd rather have, and that makes a bigger difference than the 3 point, 1 assists difference between the two Wades.

[Rose'sACL]

It's enough to sway these statistics. A team playing 14 more games than the other is sort of a big deal... lol
no, it isn't when you consider that these games were very close to each other which makes up for the toll 16 extra games take on your body.

[livinglegend]

you honestly think Lebrons one singular post move i.e backing his man down is a better move and makes Lebron a better post player than KG and his plethora of post moves... :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:


when it comes to offensive work in the post, KG is King when compared to James the pauper

Post their post scoring.
I'm pretty sure Lebron scored more on better efficiency in 2012.
Also, 2008 KG used 1 post move 90% of the time : turnaround jumper

[dubeta]

Post their post scoring.
I'm pretty sure Lebron scored more on better efficiency in 2012.
Also, 2008 KG used 1 post move 90% of the time : turnaround jumper

this.

[brownmamba00]

KG punked Pau back in 08 made him look useless same would happen with Bosh...and then boston can throw guys like Tony Allen at LeBron so he wouldn't be getting in the lane so easily like he did with KD on him.

That Boston front court depth would make the difference tho...if Boston has HCA they take that series in 6 or 7...it would be close.

[catch24]

no, it isn't when you consider that these games were very close to each other which makes up for the toll 16 extra games take on your body.

16 more games...is still 16 more games. How can you say it isn't "large enough" of a sample to change ratings?

Depending on the leagues parody, a team can go from the #1 seed out of the playoff hunt all together.

I really can't believe you guys are debating this. :biggums:

[Rose'sACL]

you honestly think Lebrons one singular post move i.e backing his man down is a better move and makes Lebron a better post player than KG and his plethora of post moves... :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:


when it comes to offensive work in the post, KG is King when compared to James the pauper
i posted about the type of post game that gave bosh problems. KG's post game was never that physical. Bosh was/is a very good defender until he is physically overpowered in the post by another big.
KG's post game would still work but will not give bosh problems like even 2013 duncan did who was way older than 2008 KG. Duncan developed mid range jumper but always killed the heat with his physical play against bosh. Bosh is a great defender if you are running PnR or taking jumpers out of the post.

go ahead and ask some knowledgeable fans the type of post player KG was.

[Rose'sACL]

16 more games...is still 16 more games. How can you say it isn't "large enough" of a sample to change ratings?

Depending on the leagues parody, a team can go from the #1 seed out of the playoff hunt all together.

I really can't believe you guys are debating this. :biggums:
it is. if anything, heat would have been better in a longer more spaced out season considering wade's knees.

[livinglegend]

KG punked Pau back in 08 made him look useless same would happen with Bosh...and then boston can throw guys like Tony Allen at LeBron so he wouldn't be getting in the lane so easily like he did with KD on him.

That Boston front court depth would make the difference tho...if Boston has HCA they take that series in 6 or 7...it would be close tho.

Tony Allen has never been good at defending Lebron.

[brownmamba00]

Tony Allen has never been good at defending Lebron.
Bullshit

[Rose'sACL]

Tony Allen has never been good at defending Lebron.
This. Pierce always guarded lebron even against those cavs teams. Allen is too undersized to guard 2012 lebron who had a post game.

[ArbitraryWater]

16 more games...is still 16 more games. How can you say it isn't "large enough" of a sample to change ratings?

Depending on the leagues parody, a team can go from the #1 seed out of the playoff hunt all together.

I really can't believe you guys are debating this. :biggums:

16 games is pretty irrelevant though.. I mean, what do you think will happen? Like I said, if anything, the Heat were getting in their groove at that time... who are we to say in what direction those stats would sway in the remainding games?

A team could go from #1 seed to lottery (ridiculous), then it could also go from lottery to #1 seed... :confusedshrug: no reason in diminishing it.

[livinglegend]

Bullshit

Bullshit

[Rose'sACL]

Bullshit
why doesn't he guard lebron even now when memphis plays cavs or when memphis played heat? since 2012, you have to get a good sized defender to stop lebron from backing his defender to the basket.
Go ahead and watch 2013 playoffs, he was backing down paul george as soon as hibbert used to move even a little away from the basket and paul george is stronger than tony allen. Hell, he backed down kawhi 3 times in a row in 2014 finals when spurs tried to go 1-on-1 against lebron with tim on the bench.

[Black and White]

You are underrating Heat's role players.
Battier, Miller, Chalmers, Haslem, Cole is not that bad

Not denying that they are solid role players, ours were just better, and the Celtics got better as the postseason went on.

[Rose'sACL]

Not denying that they are solid role players, ours were just better, and the Celtics got better as the postseason went on.
so did heat. they defeated 2012 OKC in 5 which was a better team than 2008 lakers. Bosh's injury was the only thing that made them look a little beatable in earlier rounds.

2012 playoffs durant > 2008 playoffs kobe.

i think durant since 2011 has been the best wing scorer since Jordan. Bad series for him is 45% shooting while scoring 30 ppg.

[brownmamba00]

why doesn't he guard lebron even now when memphis plays cavs or when memphis played heat? since 2012, you have to get a good sized defender to stop lebron from backing his defender to the basket.
Go ahead and watch 2013 playoffs, he was backing down paul george as soon as hibbert used to move even a little away from the basket and paul george is stronger than tony allen. Hell, he backed down kawhi 3 times in a row in 2014 finals when spurs tried to go 1-on-1 against lebron with tim on the bench.
Because he's old now...I guess yall never watched that Cavs Boston series in '10 because all I remember is TA getting right in LeBron's grill everytime forcing him to put the ball on the floor and go in the post where LeBron wasn't comfortable... he turned the ball over shit load of times with TA on him. I'm not making this up watch that series again because I don't see how relevant Paul George is in this discussion.

LeBron would still get his but it wouldn't be as easy like in the 2012 finals with KD and Sefolosha on him.

[Black and White]

so did heat. they defeated 2012 OKC in 5 which was a better team than 2008 lakers. Bosh's injury was the only thing that made them look a little beatable in earlier rounds.

2012 playoffs durant > 2008 playoffs kobe.

i think durant since 2011 has been the best wing scorer since Jordan. Bad series for him is 45% shooting while scoring 30 ppg.

Durant is an amazing scorer, but as most people know, he wasn't as engaged in the finals as he should have been, he was taking entire quarters off, that OKC team was very inexperienced, and it showed.

[livinglegend]

Because he's old now...I guess yall never watched that Cavs Boston series in '10 because all I remember is TA getting right in LeBron's grill everytime forcing him to put the ball on the floor and go in the post where LeBron wasn't comfortable... he turned the ball over shit load of times with TA on him. I'm not making this up watch that series again because I don't see how relevant Paul George is in this discussion.

LeBron would still get his but it wouldn't be as easy like in the 2012 finals with KD and Sefolosha on him.

2012 Lebron had a post game.
2010 Lebron didn't.
And Tony Allen is still a world class defender. Stop acting like he's done.

[livinglegend]

Not denying that they are solid role players, ours were just better, and the Celtics got better as the postseason went on.

I don't know if they were better, but they were surely not'' >>>>>>>>'' better.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Celtics in 6

[Rose'sACL]

Durant is an amazing scorer, but as most people know, he wasn't as engaged in the finals as he should have been, he was taking entire quarters off, that OKC team was very inexperienced, and it showed.
he was playing great. Harden was thunder's best play-maker and heat's defense focused on shutting him down. It was more like OKC was outmatched by the type of offense heat ran plus their defense. People forget that Spurs looked unbeatable until thunder took them down. Spurs were very experienced too.

Heat could play at any pace they wanted unlike the celtics.

2008 lakers didn't defend like heat on the perimeter. durant would have scored 35 ppg against 2008 lakers.
Put 2013 finals duncan on 2008 celtics and 2008 celtics would defeat 2012 heat even though 2008 KG was better than 2013 duncan but heat only had problem against big men who were physically dominating in the post and elite rim protectors at the same time.

[catch24]

16 games is pretty irrelevant though.. I mean, what do you think will happen? Like I said, if anything, the Heat were getting in their groove at that time... who are we to say in what direction those stats would sway in the remainding games?

A team could go from #1 seed to lottery (ridiculous), then it could also go from lottery to #1 seed... :confusedshrug: no reason in diminishing it.

Yup. I've said that it's pretty dumb to compare them by way of stats. We honestly don't know WHAT would happen in those 16 games, but in a statistical comparison, especially one in the regular-season, drawing a H2H conclusion from a lockout year to a full one that includes pre-season and training camp...doesn't make a lot of sense.

[DaSeba5]

It would be a good series, but 2008 Celtics.

Miami never played up to their potential tbh. 2011 was their best year in terms of the big 3 where Wade was still a super star with LeBron and Bosh. But their role players sucked and then LeBron choked. Then in 2012 their role players were a lot better, but Bosh got hurt and Wade started to shown signs of decline (although he was still a star). They finally hit their groove in 2013 (although the shooters got cold in the playoffs). Then in 2014 they fell off on defense.

My point is the Celtics had more chemistry and hit their groove quicker. It took Miami at least 2 years to play somewhat up to their potential. 2012 was still largely on LeBron's monster playoff run and him developing a post game.

[SamuraiSWISH]

My ranking on champs since '08:

2008 Celtics
2012 Heat
2014 Spurs
2013 Heat
2009 Lakers
2010 Lakers
2015 Warriors
2011 Mavericks

My ranking on Finals competition:

2011 Heat
2010 Celtics
2012 Thunder
2013 Spurs
2008 Lakers
2015 Cavs
2014 Heat
2009 Magic

Ranking Kobe, and LeBron's Finals comp since '08:

2008 Celtics
2010 Celtics
2014 Spurs
2012 Thunder
2013 Spurs
2015 Warriors
2011 Mavericks
2009 Magic

[Harison]

Celtics '08. Better defense, more versatile and cohesive offense, better team chemistry, better bench. I would say better coaching too, Doc is overrated, but he is better than Spo nonetheless.

[VIntageNOvel]

Celtic in 4, 6 if Leref showing up

[Mr. Jabbar]

celtics. any team facing lebald in the finals has the upper hand, easy money.

[Jameerthefear]

My ranking on champs since '08:

2008 Celtics
2012 Heat
2014 Spurs
2013 Heat
2009 Lakers
2010 Lakers
2015 Warriors
2011 Mavericks

My ranking on Finals competition:

2011 Heat
2010 Celtics
2012 Thunder
2013 Spurs
2008 Lakers
2015 Cavs
2014 Heat
2009 Magic

Ranking Kobe, and LeBron's Finals comp since '08:

2008 Celtics
2010 Celtics
2014 Spurs
2012 Thunder
2013 Spurs
2015 Warriors
2011 Mavericks
2009 Magic
how are the '09 magic that low?

[SamuraiSWISH]

how are the '09 magic that low?
Quite easily the worst Finals team since 2008. Kind of obvious too.

[Heavincent]

2012 playoffs durant > 2008 playoffs kobe.


LOL no.

[Jameerthefear]

Quite easily the worst Finals team since 2008. Kind of obvious too.
no. that's dumb

[tpols]

he was playing great.

Stop bsing bro.. Durant got tossed by bron.. part offensive foul, part being way too weak to even compete. Either way it was brons ability to run through durant after game 1 that blew it wide open.

That's his weakness. Too soft. Why he got locked up by 6'3 tony allen and even pushed around by 5'11 paul..


08 kobe was in a different stratosphere as a player.. no weaknesses in that year.

[RightTwoCensor]

2012 Heat almost lost to the 2012 Celtics and were significantly worse than the 2008 Celtics, especially on defense. I'd 08 Celtics in 5 or 6 games.

They can't guard KG. They can't contain Ray Allen. They can't stop Paul Pierce in the 4th Quarter.

[Magic 32]

Well, LeBron took the 2008 Celtics to 7 games with a bunch of scrubs back then ....


http://gifs.gifbin.com/092009/1253886001_office-no.gif

http://s4.postimg.org/oa2h60259/ghdfghghfghdfgh.png

[Ne 1]

no. that's dumb
I know you're a Magic fan, but you have to admit he's right. That Orlando team was pretty bad outside of Dwight, especially without their All-Star PG who was injured. The Cavs should have beat them. That '09 Magic were an aberration, the main reasons why they made it that far was because the Celtics were defanged by the time the playoffs rolled around without KG.

[aj1987]

My ranking on champs since '08:

2008 Celtics
2012 Heat
2014 Spurs
2013 Heat
2015 Warriors
2009 Lakers
2010 Lakers
2011 Mavericks

My ranking on Finals competition:

2011 Heat
2010 Celtics
2012 Thunder
2013 Spurs
2008 Lakers
2015 Cavs
2014 Heat
2009 Magic

Ranking Kobe, and LeBron's Finals comp since '08:

2014 Spurs
2008 Celtics
2015 Warriors
2010 Celtics
2012 Thunder
2013 Spurs
2011 Mavericks
2009 Magic
FTFY.

[ArbitraryWater]

My ranking on champs since '08:

2008 Celtics
2012 Heat
2014 Spurs
2013 Heat
2009 Lakers
2010 Lakers
2015 Warriors
2011 Mavericks

My ranking on Finals competition:

2011 Heat
2010 Celtics
2012 Thunder
2013 Spurs
2008 Lakers
2015 Cavs
2014 Heat
2009 Magic

Ranking Kobe, and LeBron's Finals comp since '08:

2008 Celtics
2010 Celtics
2014 Spurs
2012 Thunder
2013 Spurs
2015 Warriors
2011 Mavericks
2009 Magic

My ranking on champs since '08:

2014 Spurs
2008 Celtics
2012 Heat
2009 Lakers
2013 Heat/2010 Lakers
2015 Warriors
2011 Mavericks

My ranking on Finals competition:

2011 Heat
2012 Thunder
2013 Spurs
2010 Celtics
2008 Lakers
2015 Cavs (healthy they wouldn't be under 'competition')
2014 Heat
2009 Magic

Ranking Kobe, and LeBron's Finals comp since '08:

2014 Spurs
2008 Celtics
2013 Spurs
2012 Thunder
2010 Celtics
2015 Warriors
2011 Mavericks
2009 Magic

[LikeABosh]

2013 Heat was their best squad. 27 in a row when fully healthy

[Megabox!]

2012 Heat almost lost to the 2012 Celtics and were significantly worse than the 2008 Celtics, especially on defense. I'd 08 Celtics in 5 or 6 games.

They can't guard KG. They can't contain Ray Allen. They can't stop Paul Pierce in the 4th Quarter.
Bosh wasn't even playing til about game 5 and he wasn't fully himself until game 7. And that 08' Celtic team got pushed to 7 games by the Hawks and Cavs, I think the Heat win in 6 or 7 when fully healthy

[Akhenaten]

http://gifs.gifbin.com/092009/1253886001_office-no.gif

http://s4.postimg.org/oa2h60259/ghdfghghfghdfgh.png


This bolsters the argument that the 08 Celtics weren't all that great, if you get pushed to 7 games by a team who's best player shot 36% for the series and avg 5 TO's:confusedshrug:

08 Celtics offense was very mediocre
If Lebron doesn't have THE worst series by a top 20 GOAT player the Cavs win that series.

I mean he was 2-18 with 10 TO's in Game 1:eek:
and the Cavs lost by FOUR!!:wtf:

[Megabox!]

My dude, are you forgetting about Rondo injuring/breaking his arm in the 2nd game of the 2011 series against the Heat? We're going to act like that didn't make them easier? No? Or did you conveniently forget about that?

Or did you also forget about Bosh being injured for 5 games of the Boston series?

So the superior opponents that the 2011 Heat faced come down to... 2011 Bulls. Because the Celtics had a one arm Rondo. And the 2012 Celtics > 2011 Bulls.

Oh and, if you believe the difference between 26-6-5 Wade vs 23-6-4 Wade is big enough to make up the Heat leaving their "my turn, your turn" offense, for a pace and space small ball with Shane Battier and LeBron as their forwards... and the better role players that 2012 had...

Well. 45-15-5.

45-15-5.

The guy who did that was on the 2012 team.

The guy who scored 8 points in a Finals game was on the 2011 team.

I know who i'd rather have, and that makes a bigger difference than the 3 point, 1 assists difference between the two Wades.
:applause:

[Papaya Petee]

celtics. any team facing lebald in the finals has the upper hand, easy money.
Youve heard it here first folks.

The Celtics and Heat would play each other in the NBA Finals :hammerhead: retard

[red1]

Youve heard it here first folks.

The Celtics and Heat would play each other in the NBA Finals :hammerhead: retard
:roll: jabbar is a single cell organism and that cell is NOT a brain cell

[LA_Showtime]

Thanks for bringing up Finals-related PTSD.

2008 Celtics, and I don't even think it's that close.

[SamuraiSWISH]

My ranking on champs since '08:

2014 Spurs
2008 Celtics
Disagree. 2008 Celtics are better. Underrated. And these 2011 - 2014 Spurs teams overrated.

And don't you think that old AF '14 Spurs team, the same team as the 2013 club that lost to the 2013 Heat, with a further regressed Wade ... wouldn't get beat by the healthier, more motivated 2012 Heat team with better role players, and better production from Wade? Come on.

Let's not overrate the 2014 Spurs just because they beat a banged up, burnt out, complacent Miami team.


2015 Cavs (healthy they wouldn't be under 'competition')
Agreed.

2015 Warriors are just flat out overrated after viewing this year's playoffs, Finals and overall competition faced. Taken to 6 games, should've been 7 games at least, or a series loss period, had LeBron been remotely clutch or consistent with his scoring.

But all that struggle from Golden State against a Cleveland team missing their next two best players ... and LeBron shooting an abysmal 39 - 40% for the series. All-time great? Hell Nah.

[Jameerthefear]

I know you're a Magic fan, but you have to admit he's right. That Orlando team was pretty bad outside of Dwight, especially without their All-Star PG who was injured. The Cavs should have beat them. That '09 Magic were an aberration, the main reasons why they made it that far was because the Celtics were defanged by the time the playoffs rolled around without KG.
"the cavs should have beat them"
they lost in 6
that magic team would be even more successful in today's league.

[SamuraiSWISH]

"the cavs should have beat them"
they lost in 6
And got molly whopped in 5 by Kobe's Lakers? The Magic beat the Cavs because Mo Williams went MIA in the playoffs, and especially the conference finals. Oh, and the best team in the East that season (Boston) was ravaged by an injury to their best player.