Lebron has been validating the greatness of Elgin Baylor this whole playoff run

[CavaliersFTW]

He's been taking shots in higher volume on lower efficiency but with more VARIETY and INSIDE presence than he's ever had in his entire career, all while beasting on rebounds and still finding the open man.

This is EXACTLY how Elgin Baylor played the game. Lebron, with his current post-up abilities that he's finally got down to a legitimate weapon against any smaller defender, and his already stellar finishing ability off drives against bigger players and good-enough ability to shoot from the perimeter looks just like when you watch film of Elgin.

Anyone doubt Elgin could play today? Look at Lebron this whole playoffs that's like the EXACT same player out there:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjNS_oYE92E

[RoundMoundOfReb]

0/8

[livinglegend]

He's been taking shots in higher volume on lower efficiency but with more VARIETY and INSIDE presence than he's ever had in his entire career, all while beasting on rebounds and still finding the open man.

This is EXACTLY how Elgin Baylor played the game. Lebron, with his current post-up abilities that he's finally got down to a legitimate weapon against any smaller defender, and his already stellar finishing ability off drives against bigger players and good-enough ability to shoot from the perimeter looks just like when you watch film of Elgin.

Anyone doubt Elgin could play today? Look at Lebron this whole playoffs that's like the EXACT same player out there:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjNS_oYE92E

:roll: :roll: :roll:
Not even close.
He looks like a d-league player compared to Lebron.

[CavaliersFTW]

:roll: :roll: :roll:
Not even close.
He looks like a d-league player compared to Lebron.
Sorry but the film (which you didn't even watch commenting so quicky) doesn't lie, the way Lebron can finally operate both inside and out, seamlessly back and forth to feel out the defense while being able to also pass from the inside or perimeter is just like Elgin.

The resemblance used to not be quite right... but now that Lebron is so ready willing and able to go inside and looks so confident inside their games similarity is shocking. Squint your eyes of highlights of Lebron this playoffs to how Elgin plays in those clips, it looks virtually identical where they like to be on the floor to catch entry passes, how often they like to post-up, how they pass, how they also can/do bring the ball up the floor and play as a guard, what moves they use in the post or from the perimeter etc.

[navy]

I sincerely hope Elgin Baylor didnt waste his career playing like this Cavs team.

[dreamwarrior]

Guy was a chucker. In two seasons he put up 43 and 46 shots a game. MJ's highest ever was 39 and Kobe's 37. Lebron this year's playoffs: 43.7

[LikeABosh]

Yea, just like Lebron, except shorter, smaller, less athletic, 1/10th of the passer, 1/10th the court presence and leader.

[riseagainst]

lebron is a much better player. Look at the Elgin's teammates, stacked but still couldnt win a single championship.
:lol

[IllegalD]

https://conddedeporte.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/baylorchamberlainwest.jpg

Played on this stacked SUPERTEAM, STILL NO RING. :lol

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Dude wasn't even the best player on his team for the majority of his career and still never won a ring.

[warriorfan]

He's been taking shots in higher volume on lower efficiency but with more VARIETY and INSIDE presence than he's ever had in his entire career, all while beasting on rebounds and still finding the open man.

This is EXACTLY how Elgin Baylor played the game. Lebron, with his current post-up abilities that he's finally got down to a legitimate weapon against any smaller defender, and his already stellar finishing ability off drives against bigger players and good-enough ability to shoot from the perimeter looks just like when you watch film of Elgin.

Anyone doubt Elgin could play today? Look at Lebron this whole playoffs that's like the EXACT same player out there:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjNS_oYE92E

LeBron has similar stats to Baylor with about 2/3rds of the possessions. :roll:

Baylor sucks, go home.

[3ball]

He's been taking shots in higher volume on lower efficiency but with more VARIETY and INSIDE presence than he's ever had in his entire career, all while beasting on rebounds and still finding the open man.

This is EXACTLY how Elgin Baylor played the game. Lebron, with his current post-up abilities that he's finally got down to a legitimate weapon against any smaller defender, and his already stellar finishing ability off drives against bigger players and good-enough ability to shoot from the perimeter looks just like when you watch film of Elgin.

Anyone doubt Elgin could play today? Look at Lebron this whole playoffs that's like the EXACT same player out there:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjNS_oYE92E



Truthfully, Lebron never makes a sophisticated one-dribble move like this... EVER... He simply doesn't have the skill:


http://www.gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/43d5cf02e36411e3b5d5b1e73b6f56f5.gif


Here's Kobe talking about the high sophistication of the move shown above:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8UXE7pDA_c&t=0m36s


Also, most people simply don't understand that when there's no 3-point line, there's no reason to slow it down and run offense to get good 3-point looks.. Instead, teams settled for contested 2-pointers, which allowed them to play much faster.. Guys don't need to be AS OPEN for 2-pointers, so you don't need to slow it down and run a bunch of offense to set up a good look.

People don't understand that: just because you play a faster pace, doesn't mean the shots are less contested - this is a hard concept for people to grasp, and most people won't.. They just don't understand how 2-point basketball plays..

The other day I contemplated what it would be like on ISH forums if the NBA removing the 3-point line as an experiment for like, a month... This forum would blow up with disbelief about how different and tougher the game is... Posters would be like "so-and-so has the skill to make it" and "so-and-so doesn't."... People would be amazed because they're ignorant about the game, just like they're amazed that Lebron is finding MORE success by ignoring efficiency, and focusing on raw production instead (my advice for him last year).. It's surprising to them because they don't understand the game.. If Elgin played today, people would be amazed the same way.
.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Very similar players in many respects...Bron has more range and power, Baylor has more creativity around the basket. Hang time too.

I think at this point LeBron is clearly the better, and more impactful player though.

[ArbitraryWater]

Elgin realized too late that it was Jerry's team, chucked them out of a few titles... no coincedence they started their 33 game winning streak the exact day he retires, lol.

[CavaliersFTW]

Elgin realized too late that it was Jerry's team, chucked them out of a few titles... no coincedence they started their 33 game winning streak the exact day he retires, lol.
Incorrect.

[3ball]

http://estaticos.marca.com/imagenes/2014/11/24/baloncesto/nba/noticias/1416806232_extras_noticia_foton_7_0.jpg


Very similar players in many respects...Bron has more range and power, Baylor has more creativity around the basket. Hang time too.

I think at this point LeBron is clearly the better, and more impactful player though.


Elgin averaged 39 PPG and 19 RPG while playing the guys you see above (Wilt and Russell) for 30% of his games (14 times per year each)... So you're being biased by recency without having seen Elgin...

only 8 teams in entire league, so elgin played the equivalent of the Spurs or Warriors for a huge chunk of this games... Can you imagine Lebron having to play the Warriors and Spurs for 30% of his games?...

Bron's stats wouldn't be nearly as high if he had to play the best teams that often (of course, his stats wouldn't be nearly as high playing with no 3-point line either, although pace would help out somewhat... but his efficiency would be horrible - worse than Elgin's because Bron can't shoot from mid-range, whereas Elgin was an elite mid-range shotmaker.
.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Elgin averaged 39 PPG and 19 RPG while playing the guys you see above (Wilt and Russell) for 30% of his games (14 times per year each)... So you're being biased by recency without having seen Elgin...

only 8 teams in entire league, so elgin played the equivalent of the Spurs or Warriors for a huge chunk of this games... Can you imagine Lebron having to play the Warriors and Spurs for 30% of his games?...

Bron's stats wouldn't be nearly as high if he had to play the best teams that often (of course, his stats wouldn't be nearly as high playing with no 3-point line either, although pace would help out somewhat... but his efficiency would be horrible - worse than Elgin's because Bron can't shoot from mid-range, whereas Elgin was an elite mid-range shotmaker.
.

Are you that delusional? :roll:

Elgin's great yeah, but you really think Lebron couldn't play in that era? Go watch footage from that era youngblood and get educated on the past.

[3ball]

Are you that delusional? :roll:


I never said Lebron couldn't play in that era - I said that based on the stats, I'm not sure he'd be MORE impactful than Elgin...

So how is that delusional?

Elgin averaged 38.3 PPG and 18.6 RPG while playing Russell's GOAT stacked team and Wilt's team 18 times per season, or 20% of the games (I overstated initially in saying 30% - that was off the top of my head).

Lebron is not averaging 38/19 on all 2-pointers... Simply impossible.

[Psileas]

LeBron has similar stats to Baylor with about 2/3rds of the possessions. :roll:

Baylor sucks, go home.

And while holding the ball like twice as much. GTFO.

[Kvnzhangyay]

I never said Lebron couldn't play in that era - I said that based on the stats, I'm not sure he'd be MORE impactful than Elgin...

So how is that delusional?

Elgin averaged 38.3 PPG and 18.6 RPG while playing Russell's GOAT stacked team and Wilt's team 18 times per season, or 20% of the games (I overstated initially in saying 30% - that was off the top of my head).

Lebron is not averaging 38/19 on all 2-pointers... Simply impossible.

And Wilt averaged 50/26 that season

[K Xerxes]

Elgin averaged 39 PPG and 19 RPG while playing the guys you see above (Wilt and Russell) for 30% of his games (14 times per year each)... So you're being biased by recency without having seen Elgin...

only 8 teams in entire league, so elgin played the equivalent of the Spurs or Warriors for a huge chunk of this games... Can you imagine Lebron having to play the Warriors and Spurs for 30% of his games?...

Bron's stats wouldn't be nearly as high if he had to play the best teams that often (of course, his stats wouldn't be nearly as high playing with no 3-point line either, although pace would help out somewhat... but his efficiency would be horrible - worse than Elgin's because Bron can't shoot from mid-range, whereas Elgin was an elite mid-range shotmaker.
.

LeBron would be a different player in that era, as would Elgin in this era. As would Michael. As would Kareem. Players grow up only in the era and the rules they were born in. It is impossible to know how different players would be if they were in different eras. But you are a moron if you think LeBron wouldn't be an ATG in any era.

You hold unrealistic expectations of LeBron because of the weak spacing era you believe he plays in. In other words, no matter what LeBron does, you will be unimpressed. And if LeBron has a bad game, you will be the first to denigrate him because he should do better. It's your prerogative to hold this view of course, but don't expect the rest of us to tag along regardless of the amount of times you spam your arguments. Some of us can appreciate greatness when we see it.

[3ball]

http://www.gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/fff1a20b4e594578b8e91389fb73ab1f.gif


And while holding the ball like twice as much. GTFO.



Let me know when you see Lebron head fake... Lebron doesn't head fake... I've seen him do it literally once in his entire career..

Some of the most basic skills and fundamentals are missing from his game, which is why he is susceptible to getting completely shut down in this prime for a pathetic 17 PPG in 2011 Finals...

Lebron has THE CAPACITY within him for that to happen... Elgin did not.

And my god... Lebron can't shoot... What was he last game, 11-34?.. You DO realize that Lebron can't make either of the mid-range shots shown above?.. Those would be highly uncomfortable shots for him... Elgin's scoring repertoire >>>>> :confusedshrug:

[Rocketswin2013]

Elgin averaged 39 PPG and 19 RPG while playing the guys you see above (Wilt and Russell) for 30% of his games (14 times per year each)... So you're being biased by recency without having seen Elgin...

only 8 teams in entire league, so elgin played the equivalent of the Spurs or Warriors for a huge chunk of this games... Can you imagine Lebron having to play the Warriors and Spurs for 30% of his games?...

Bron's stats wouldn't be nearly as high if he had to play the best teams that often (of course, his stats wouldn't be nearly as high playing with no 3-point line either, although pace would help out somewhat... but his efficiency would be horrible - worse than Elgin's because Bron can't shoot from mid-range, whereas Elgin was an elite mid-range shotmaker.
.
LeBron has practically developed literally everything on his game at some point or another. You don't think he could put in hours in summers and adapt to the midrange jumpshooting? The Guy became an elite spot up 3-point shooter and post-up player after single, seperate summers. You're a ****ing dunce.

[LAZERUSS]

LeBron has similar stats to Baylor with about 2/3rds of the possessions. :roll:

Baylor sucks, go home.

You really have to get off of this "possession" nonsense. It's not about possessions, it's about shot attempts.

In the '95 Finals, on a team that averaged 86 FGAs, Hakeem averaged 29 FGAs per game. And in a post-season that shot an eFG% of .504, he shot .488. So, yes, he averaged 32.8 ppg, but on a lower efficiency and a HUGE percent of his team's overall FGAs (34%!)

Compare that with Wilt's '64 Finals, and in a supposedly much higher-paced era. Chamberlains' Warriors averaged 97 FGAs per game in that series, and Wilt took 24 FGAs of them (25%), in a series in which he averaged 29.2 ppg, and on a .517 eFG% in a post-season NBA that shot an eFG% of .420. (As a side-note, Russell shot .386, and his teammates shot .408. Wilt's teammates collectively shot .345.)

Notice something there. Chamberlain scored nearly as much, on considerably less FGAs, and on a higher FG%...and MUCH HIGHER when compared to the post-season league average eFG%.

So, move Wilt to the '95 Finals, give him 29 FGAs per game, and on an eFG% of .517, and he would have averaged 35.0 ppg. BUT, increase Wilt's eFG% of .517, in a post-season NBA that shot .420, to Hakeem's .504, and Chamberlain would have shot an eye-popping .620 from the field. So, a '64 Wilt, taking 29 FGAs in the '95 Finals, but on an FG% of .620 (instead of Hakeem's .488) would have scored 40 ppg.


BTW, have you ever noticed that the more FGAs a player takes, generally, the lower his FG%. In Hakeem's highest scoring regular season, he averaged 27.8 ppg on a .517 FG%. In his highest FG% season, he shot .538, and averaged 20.6 ppg. How about David Robinson? In the season in which he led the league in ppg, he averaged 29.8 ppg, on a .507 FG%. In his highest FG% season, he averaged 25.6 ppg on a .552 FG%. MJ averaged 37.1 ppg on a .482 FG%. In his highest FG% season, he averaged 31.5 ppg on a .539 FG%. You can generally go right down the list, and of course there are always exceptions, but generally the more you shoot, the lower your FG%.

And, this is interesting, as well. Remember KAJ's '72 season, when he averaged 34.8 ppg on 25 FGAs? In that same post-season, he averaged 29 FGAs per game, and scored 28.9 ppg. The more he shot, the much worse he shot. Of course, he was going up against Thurmond and Wilt in that post-season, as well. BUT, then again, Chamberlain faced Russell EIGHT TIMES in his post-season career, and Thurmond in THREE more.

[warriorfan]

You really have to get off of this "possession" nonsense. It's not about possessions, it's about shot attempts.

In the '95 Finals, on a team that averaged 86 FGAs, Hakeem averaged 29 FGAs per game. And in a post-season that shot an eFG% of .504, he shot .488. So, yes, he averaged 32.8 ppg, but on a lower efficiency and a HUGE percent of his team's overall FGAs (34%!)

Compare that with Wilt's '64 Finals, and in a supposedly much higher-paced era. Chamberlains' Warriors averaged 97 FGAs per game in that series, and Wilt took 24 FGAs of them (25%), in a series in which he averaged 29.2 ppg, and on a .517 eFG% in a post-season NBA that shot an eFG% of .420. (As a side-note, Russell shot .386, and his teammates shot .408. Wilt's teammates collectively shot .345.)

Notice something there. Chamberlain scored nearly as much, on considerably less FGAs, and on a higher FG%...and MUCH HIGHER when compared to the post-season league average eFG%.

So, move Wilt to the '95 Finals, give him 29 FGAs per game, and on an eFG% of .517, and he would have averaged 35.0 ppg. BUT, increase Wilt's eFG% of .517, in a post-season NBA that shot .420, to Hakeem's .504, and Chamberlain would have shot an eye-popping .620 from the field. So, a '64 Wilt, taking 29 FGAs in the '95 Finals, but on an FG% of .620 (instead of Hakeem's .488) would have scored 40 ppg.


BTW, have you ever noticed that the more FGAs a player takes, generally, the lower his FG%. In Hakeem's highest scoring regular season, he averaged 27.8 ppg on a .517 FG%. In his highest FG% season, he shot .538, and averaged 20.6 ppg. How about David Robinson? In the season in which he led the league in ppg, he averaged 29.8 ppg, on a .507 FG%. In his highest FG% season, he averaged 25.6 ppg on a .552 FG%. MJ averaged 37.1 ppg on a .482 FG%. In his highest FG% season, he averaged 31.5 ppg on a .539 FG%. You can generally go right down the list, and of course there are always exceptions, but generally the more you shoot, the lower your FG%.

And, this is interesting, as well. Remember KAJ's '72 season, when he averaged 34.8 ppg on 25 FGAs? In that same post-season, he averaged 29 FGAs per game, and scored 28.9 ppg. The more he shot, the much worse he shot. Of course, he was going up against Thurmond and Wilt in that post-season, as well. BUT, then again, Chamberlain faced Russell EIGHT TIMES in his post-season career, and Thurmond in THREE more.

TLDR, if you have 30 percent more possessions that is 30 percent more opportunities, if you didn't use those opportunities to gain extra shot attempts then that is your fault.

[CavaliersFTW]

TLDR, if you have 30 percent more possessions that is 30 percent more opportunities, if you didn't use those opportunities to gain extra shot attempts then that is your fault.
Your superstar gets whatever touches he needs to do his thing on offense, particularly if he's the most efficient scorer/best option/and a good passer on the floor. If there are fewer possessions, your teams Wayne Hightower is gonna sacrifice touches not your teams Wilt Chamberlain.

:hammerhead:

[LAZERUSS]

As for Baylor's 38.3 ppg. It came in a season in which he played in 48 out of his team's 80 games. He also took FAR more shots that season, 33.1 FGAs per game, than at any other time in his career.

In his highest scoring FULL TIME season, he averaged 34.8 ppg on 29.7 FGAs. I have long maintained that a full-time Baylor would never have approached 38.3 ppg,

It's interesting, too, that for those that claim that Baylor averaged 38.3 ppg in Wilt's 50.4 ppg season, and again, in 48 games...that Wilt had three stretches that season, of 53 ppg in 14 straight games, then 54 ppg in another 14 game stretch, and then... 70.2 ppg in a five straight game run. So, in three runs, covering 33 games, Chamberlain averaged 55 ppg. Add in his first 16 straight games in his next season (62-63), when he was averaging 53 ppg, and you have a span of 49 games, all within a very small timeframe, of about 54 ppg.

[LAZERUSS]

TLDR, if you have 30 percent more possessions that is 30 percent more opportunities, if you didn't use those opportunities to gain extra shot attempts then that is your fault.

Take the time to read it son.

And no, 30% more possessions does not equate into 30% more shot attempts. If that were the case, how come that, aside from Wilt, the next highest FGAs full-time season, IN the Wilt era, was at 29.7 FGAs? Or that a shot-jacking Rick Barry averaged 35.6 ppg (the highest non-Wilt full-time ppg average in the Chamberlain era BTW)...was on 28.7 FGAs and in 40.7 mpg...in a supposedly much higher paced era. BTW, that came in a season in which the NBA averaged 117 ppg. Nearly ten years later, in the 74-75 season, in a league that averaged 102.6 ppg, Barry averaged 30.6 ppg on 27.7 FGAs and in 40.4 mpg. How come? How come nearly the same shot attempts in a much loweer "paced" era?

Think about that. In MJ's highest scoring season, he played 40.0 mpg, averaged 37.1 ppg, and guess what...he took 27.8 FGAs per game, in a league that averaged 110 ppg. How about Kobe in a season in which the NBA averaged 97.0 ppg? He played 41.0 mpg, averaged 35.4 ppg, and guess what...on 27.2 FGAs per game.

How come? How come, aside from WILT...that NO ON ELSE ever averaged over 29.7 FGAs per game? How come a Kareem, who played FOUR years IN the Wilt-era, and had staggering FG%'s...and playing 44 mpg...never took more than 25 FGAs per game?

Don't you think that if "pace" or "possessions" would be the sole reason for FGAs, that the greats of any era would have taken 40?

It simply doesn't work that way.

We are seeing Lebron taking 36 FGAs in his first two games of the Finals...and guess what, he is shooting .402 from the field. How come?

[warriorfan]

More possessions means more shots. More shots means more points, more misses, more rebounds... you get the picture. Without an understanding of that pace, many of the other statistics become meaningless.

[CavaliersFTW]

More possessions means more shots. More shots means more points, more misses, more rebounds... you get the picture. Without an understanding of that pace, many of the other statistics become meaningless.
And without an understanding of who your teams best player is, if the games pace has "less possessions" you failing to get the ball into the hands of that best player is going to be your own undoing :lol

If a guy like Elgin played a game with a slower pace, you best believe he's still going to carry the teams scoring load. He'll still get his touches. The guys around him will be the ones who sacrifice first.

[warriorfan]

And without an understanding of who your teams best player is, if the games pace has "less possessions" you failing to get the ball into the hands of that best player is going to be your own undoing :lol

If a guy like Elgin played a game with a slower pace, you best believe he's still going to carry the teams scoring load. He'll still get his touches. The guys around him will be the ones who sacrifice first.


If a guy like LeBron played a game with a faster pace, you best believe he is going to get more touches.

[LAZERUSS]

More possessions means more shots. More shots means more points, more misses, more rebounds... you get the picture. Without an understanding of that pace, many of the other statistics become meaningless.

Yep...that's why aside from Wilt, EVERY era tops out at 35 ppg max in scoring. Even in the highly efficient MJ era, and the snail-paced mid 00's. Just a year ago...Durant...playing 39 mpg...and taking 21 FGAs per game... 32.0 ppg. Oscar in his highest scoring season, playing 45 mpg... 31.4 ppg on guess what...22 FGAs per game.

How come? If it were so easy to score more with more shots, how come Durant, Lebron, and your boy Curry...only take around 20?

Lebron in his highest scoring season... 31.4 ppg on 23 FGAs in 43 mpg. In his most efficient season (.567 FG%)...27.1 ppg, on 17.6 FGAs, and in 38 mpg. Yet...in these Finals... 42 ppg on 36 FGAs and on ... yep... a .402 FG%.

If Lebron could average 27 ppg on 18 FGAs, shouldn't he be averaging 54 ppg on 36?

[warriorfan]

Yep...that's why aside from Wilt, EVERY era tops out at 35 ppg max in scoring. Even in the highly efficient MJ era, and the snail-paced mid 00's. Just a year ago...Durant...playing 39 mpg...and taking 21 FGAs per game... 32.0 ppg. Oscar in his highest scoring season, playing 45 mpg... 31.4 ppg on guess what...22 FGAs per game.

How come? If it were so easy to score more with more shots, how come Durant, Lebron, and your boy Curry...only take around 20?

Lebron in his highest scoring season... 31.4 ppg on 23 FGAs in 43 mpg. In his most efficient season (.567 FG%)...27.1 ppg, on 17.6 FGAs, and in 38 mpg. Yet...in these Finals... 42 ppg on 36 FGAs and on ... yep... a .402 FG%.

If Lebron could average 27 ppg on 18 FGAs, shouldn't he be averaging 54 ppg on 36?

Everyone except Wilt maxed out at 35 ppg because everyone except Wilt sucked compared to modern players...

[CavaliersFTW]

If a guy like LeBron played a game with a faster pace, you best believe he is going to get more touches.
Sorry, not if Jerry West and Wilt Chamberlain, or Jerry West and Gail Goodrich and Rudy LaRusso are his teammates.

When the pace is higher, and the league is smaller, the other good scorers and playmakers will get their shots too.

Expand the league to 30 teams, and slow the pace, and then you get the high usage rates.

[LAZERUSS]

Everyone except Wilt maxed out at 35 ppg because everyone except Wilt sucked compared to modern players...

Kareem played IN the Wilt era. A PEAK KAJ STRUGGLED FAR more against Nate Thurmond, than a 38-40 year old Kareem did against a 23-25 year old Hakeem.

Put a 23 year old Kareem up against a 39 year old Hakeem, and he would have averaged 60 ppg, and probably on a .700 FG%.

[CavaliersFTW]

Everyone except Wilt maxed out at 35 ppg because everyone except Wilt sucked compared to modern players...
Does this also apply to the 1980's because some of those Wilt era players also happened to play in the Bird/Magic/MJ era.

What an annoying little detail.

[warriorfan]

Does this also apply to the 1980's because some of those Wilt era players also happened to play in the Bird/Magic/MJ era.

What an annoying little detail.

:biggums:

[warriorfan]

Sorry, not if Jerry West and Wilt Chamberlain, or Jerry West and Gail Goodrich and Rudy LaRusso are his teammates.

When the pace is higher, and the league is smaller, the other good scorers and playmakers will get their shots too.

Expand the league to 30 teams, and slow the pace, and then you get the high usage rates.

Uhh yeah he is. LeBron is bigger, faster, and stronger then anyone on that Laker team. You think LeBron would average the same amount of rebounds with 30% more possessions? LeBron would get to more rebounds and thrive in the fast break oriented opportunities, he would murder the league.

[LAZERUSS]

:biggums:

You haven't given one of my posts a legitimate answer.

Why doesn't Lebron, Durant, and Curry take 36 FGAs per game every game. Obviously it can be done, because in a very slow-paced Finals, Lebron is taking them.

[warriorfan]

You haven't given one of my posts a legitimate answer.

Why doesn't Lebron, Durant, and Curry take 36 FGAs per game every game. Obviously it can be done, because in a very slow-paced Finals, Lebron is taking them.


It's hard to take 36 FGA's in today's slower pace... In the 60's it would be much easier.

Way to ether yourself bro :wtf:

[LAZERUSS]

Uhh yeah he is. LeBron is bigger, faster, and stronger then anyone on that Laker team. You think LeBron would average the same amount of rebounds with 30% more possessions? LeBron would get to more rebounds and thrive in the fast break oriented opportunities, he would murder the league.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

In a league with zero spacing, he, and no one else is taking 23 ft shots. And he is not driving the lane nearly as easily in what would amount to be a forest.

Sorry, but, just no. Not a chance in hell.

Would he get 25 FGAs per game? Easily. Would he shoot 50%? NO WAY. He would be shooting like he is now.

Much different game in the 60's.

Rebounding is the ONLY area in which stats were "inflated." Assists were HARDER to come by. Scoring came on much lower efficiencies. The greats of that era, including Kareem, capped out at about 25-29 FGAs per game, and most took considerably less.

[CavaliersFTW]

Uhh yeah he is. LeBron is bigger, faster, and stronger then anyone on that Laker team. You think LeBron would average the same amount of rebounds with 30% more possessions? LeBron would get to more rebounds and thrive in the fast break oriented opportunities, he would murder the league.
Rebounds = / = points and assists

Now you're talking about a different subject. More available rebounds, sure he'll get more rebounds.

No 3 point shot and all the spacing and shot selection trends that go with it? Hand checking and strict dribbling rules, and the sense of urgency when handling the ball that comes with it? No "no-charge zone" and all the implications that has on players that like to drive?

I mean... there is no such thing as a linear pace adjustment, the game was just different back then, there's plenty of things that are going to affect his production in a negative way. Rebounds are one that would likely go up, but his offense would likely stay the same in terms of volume, though his efficiency would likely go down. And yes, his teammates are going to get theirs, his relative usage would go down.

[warriorfan]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

In a league with zero spacing, he, and no one else is taking 23 ft shots. And he is not driving the lane nearly as easily in what would amount to be a forest.

Sorry, but, just no. Not a chance in hell.

Would he get 25 FGAs per game? Easily. Would he shoot 50%? NO WAY. He would be shooting like he is now.

Much different game in the 60's.

Rebounding is the ONLY area in which stats were "inflated." Assists were HARDER to come by. Scoring came on much lower efficiencies. The greats of that era, including Kareem, capped out at about 25-29 FGAs per game, and most took considerably less.


Rebounds = / = points and assists

Now you're talking about a different subject. More available rebounds, sure he'll get more rebounds.

No 3 point shot and all the spacing and shot selection trends that go with it? Hand checking and strict dribbling rules, and the sense of urgency when handling the ball that comes with it? No "no-charge zone" and all the implications that has on players that like to drive?

I mean... there is no such thing as a linear pace adjustment, the game was just different back then, there's plenty of things that are going to affect his production in a negative way. Rebounds are one that would likely go up, but his offense would likely stay the same in terms of volume, though his efficiency would likely go down. And yes, his teammates are going to get theirs, his relative usage would go down.

Ok so we are making some progress with you guys admitting LeBron would have more rebounds. You mention clogged lanes like a forest but if you watch a 1960's game you will see that the majority of it is transition offense...guess who is one of the GOAT transitional offense players of all time? LeBron. He would feast in this environment regardless of the 30% extra possessions to gain extra stats. But with those extra possessions his stats would make even Wilt envious.

[LAZERUSS]

It's hard to take 36 FGA's in today's slower pace... In the 60's it would be much easier.

Way to ether yourself bro :wtf:

REALLY? How come a PEAK Kareem took 25 FGAs? And a PEAK Kareem capped out at 29 FGAs in his post-season?

And yet a 38-39 year old Kareem averaged 32 ppg on a .630 FG% against Hakeem in TEN STRAIGHT games, including THREE of 40+, and a high of 46 (on 21-30 shooting...and guess what..in only 37 minutes?

You want to know something interesting about that? A PEAK Kareem faced an aging full-time Thurmond in 35 H2H's, and his HIGH game was... 34 points. Oh, and overall in those 35 games... a .447 FG%!

How come? How come in a considerably higher-paced era, Kareem could only reach 30+, five times against Thurmond, and yet in 10 H2H's with Hakeem, a 38-39 did it SIX times...and on staggering FG%'s?

[warriorfan]

REALLY? How come a PEAK Kareem took 25 FGAs? And a PEAK Kareem capped out at 29 FGAs in his post-season?

And yet a 38-39 year old Kareem averaged 32 ppg on a .630 FG% against Hakeem in TEN STRAIGHT games, including THREE of 40+, and a high of 46 (on 21-30 shooting...and guess what..in only 37 minutes?

You want to know something interesting about that? A PEAK Kareem faced an aging full-time Thurmond in 35 H2H's, and his HIGH game was... 34 points. Oh, and overall in those 35 games... a .447 FG%!

How come? How come in a considerably higher-paced era, Kareem could only reach 30+, five times against Thurmond, and yet in 10 H2H's with Hakeem, a 38-39 did it SIX times...and on staggering FG%'s?

Because PEAK Kareem can't run the floor like LeBron James. Once again LeBron is one of the GOATs when it comes to transition offense. Kareem and LeBron are as different of players as you could compare.

[LAZERUSS]

Ok so we are making some progress with you guys admitting LeBron would have more rebounds. You mention clogged lanes like a forest but if you watch a 1960's game you will see that the majority of it is transition offense...guess who is one of the GOAT transitional offense players of all time? LeBron. He would feast in this environment regardless of the 30% extra possessions to gain extra stats. But with those extra possessions his stats would make even Wilt envious.

The majority was transition offense? Sorry son, you are dead wrong. Why did the early 60's shoot about .420 then? And don't me this nonsense about poor shooting. The league shot a higher FT% in 1959, than they did THIS year.

Lebron would get 35 ppg, no doubt, but on "Baylor-like" efficiency. Kobe would too, as would Michael. Kobe and MJ could probably hit 40+, but on just horrific shooting.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Is there any way in hell MJ, Kobe or LeBron spend the majority of their careers as the 2nd best player on their teams and don't win at least 1 ring?

[LAZERUSS]

Because PEAK Kareem can't run the floor like LeBron James. Once again LeBron is one of the GOATs when it comes to transition offense. Kareem and LeBron are as different of players as you could compare.

Maybe CavsFan or JLIP can find the article, but in the late 60's or early 70's, Kareem was invited to a Packers training camp, and they had the players run something like 300 yards. Now GB had Travis Williams and Dave Hampton at the time, (Williams was a college sprint champion), and guess who won?

Kareem was among the fastest players in the league.

And if James "can run the floor" why is shooting .402 in this year's Finals? And how come HE is WALKING the ball up on nearly every possession?

Do some real research and get back to me.

[LAZERUSS]

Is there any way in hell MJ, Kobe or LeBron spend the majority of their careers as the 2nd best player on their teams and don't win at least 1 ring?

Probably not of they faced the equivalent of the 60's Celtics. 5-9 HOFers on EVERY roster.

We'll see if Lebron can get one against the Warriors this year. If he does, then I believe. If not.,..nope not against the greatest Dynasty in NBA history.

BTW, Baylor's teams lost several close game seven's against that Dynasty.

[warriorfan]

The majority was transition offense? Sorry son, you are dead wrong. Why did the early 60's shoot about .420 then? And don't me this nonsense about poor shooting. The league shot a higher FT% in 1959, than they did THIS year.

Lebron would get 35 ppg, no doubt, but on "Baylor-like" efficiency. Kobe would too, as would Michael. Kobe and MJ could probably hit 40+, but on just horrific shooting.


"1959 had better shooters because of higher FT"

:roll: :roll: :roll:


You have lost your mind. Yeah cause taking free throws is the same as taking in game shots like off the dribble pull ups or jump shots while people are contesting...


major :biggums:

[warriorfan]

Maybe CavsFan or JLIP can find the article, but in the late 60's or early 70's, Kareem was invited to a Packers training camp, and they had the players run something like 300 yards. Now GB had Travis Williams and Dave Hampton at the time, (Williams was a college sprint champion), and guess who won?

Kareem was among the fastest players in the league.

And if James "can run the floor" why is shooting .402 in this year's Finals? And how come HE is WALKING the ball up on nearly every possession?

Do some real research and get back to me.


Who cares if young Kareem was fast. He wasn't as fast, strong, quick, and agile as LeBron.

[LAZERUSS]

"1959 had better shooters because of higher FT"

:roll: :roll: :roll:


You have lost your mind. Yeah cause taking free throws is the same as taking in game shots like off the dribble pull ups or jump shots while people are contesting...


major :biggums:

Contesting?

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Good one.

BTW, put these modern players in the 60's, and they wouldn't get the ball past half court. PALMING was enforced. Go ahead and look up that rule. The HAND can NEVER go below the equator. Today's players CARRY it.

GTFO.

[LAZERUSS]

Who cares if young Kareem was fast. He wasn't as fast, strong, quick, and agile as LeBron.

Neither is anyone in today's league.

Yet...all you see him do in this year's Finals? WALK the ball up the floor.

How come?

[CavaliersFTW]

Who cares if young Kareem was fast. He wasn't as fast, strong, quick, and agile as LeBron.
Better rebounder, better scorer with the most unstoppable shot in history, better shot blocker, even freakier athletic attributes due to his size and verticality.

Saying Kareem is a better player than LeBron is not a stretch. They play different positions, but I'm pretty sure most GM's pick the most dominant big men all-time to start teams over the most dominant guards and forwards.

[LAZERUSS]

Better rebounder, better scorer with the most unstoppable shot in history, better shot blocker, even freakier athletic attributes due to his size and verticality.

Saying Kareem is a better player than LeBron is not a stretch. They play different positions, but I'm pretty sure most GM's pick the most dominant big men all-time to start teams over the most dominant guards and forwards.


WITHOUT question.

[warriorfan]

Better rebounder, better scorer with the most unstoppable shot in history, better shot blocker, even freakier athletic attributes due to his size and verticality.

Saying Kareem is a better player than LeBron is not a stretch. They play different positions, but I'm pretty sure most GM's pick the most dominant big men all-time to start teams over the most dominant guards and forwards.

I never said Kareem is a better player. I said LeBron is a better athlete, ballhandler, playmaker that would help him thrive in the high paced offenses of the 60's and 70's.

[CavaliersFTW]

I never said Kareem is a better player. I said LeBron is a better athlete, ballhandler, playmaker that would help him thrive in the high paced offenses of the 60's and 70's.
I wonder if Lebron would be a better ball handler if he wasn't allowed to palm the ball. He dribbles off his feet and/or just loses his handle a lot even when he's not under pressure can you imagine if he wasn't allowed to scoop his live dribble mistakes up all the time? Damn.

[warriorfan]

I wonder if Lebron would be a better ball handler if he wasn't allowed to palm the ball. He dribbles off his feet and/or just loses his handle a lot even when he's not under pressure can you imagine if he wasn't allowed to scoop his live dribble mistakes up all the time? Damn.


"LeBron wouldn't be able to dribble the ball in the 1960's."


:biggums:

[LAZERUSS]

I never said Kareem is a better player. I said LeBron is a better athlete, ballhandler, playmaker that would help him thrive in the high paced offenses of the 60's and 70's.


You have already put down the players of the 60's, and yet, now you are changing your mind?

Why didn't Kareem, who at age 39, was capable of going 21-30 in 37 minutes against a 24 year old Hakeem...average 30 FGAs and 46 ppg in the late 60's and early 70's?

BTW, Hakeem wasn't the only HOF center that would play in the 90's, that he annihilated. At age 39, he had one game against Ewing of 40 points, on 15-22 shooting, all while holding Patrick to 9 points on 3-17 shooting.

And then, how do explain an aging Thurmond just castrating a PEAK Kareem's offense, and in 35 games?

[inclinerator]

ok dantheman

[warriorfan]

You have already put down the players of the 60's, and yet, now you are changing your mind?

Why didn't Kareem, who at age 39, was capable of going 21-30 in 37 minutes against a 24 year old Hakeem...average 30 FGAs and 46 ppg in the late 60's and early 70's?

BTW, Hakeem wasn't the only HOF center that would play in the 90's, that he annihilated. At age 39, he had one game against Ewing of 40 points, on 15-22 shooting, all while holding Patrick to 9 points on 3-17 shooting.

And then, how do explain an aging Thurmond just castrating a PEAK Kareem's offense, and in 35 games?


Why do you keep bringing up Centers while talking about LeBron?

[LAZERUSS]

Why do you keep bringing up Centers while talking about LeBron?

What about Lebron? Yes, he is a once-in-a-generational great. But, he is not facing any better brand of basketball today, than what was played in the 60's and 70's. Different, yes. Better, no.

Have you watched footage of Dr. J, who was playing college ball in the 60's. Take a moment and read up on Gus Johnson. Havlicek was drafted by the NFL. Rick Barry was a great athlete, and look no further than his son, Brent Barry, who won a slam-dunk contest. Watch footage of Pistol Pete. If a 6-3 Rubio can start in the NBA, than Maravich would be a force.

In the 70's, Bob McAdoo had a similar skill-set as Durant, and in one season, playing 42 mpg, in an NBA that averaged 102.6 ppg, he averaged 34.5 ppg.

If you think the 60's and 70's were filled with nerds, you are dead wrong.

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, Lebron would have been great in the 60's and 70's. Same with Duncan, KG, MJ, Shaq, Kobe, Durant, and other's.

Same with the greats of the 60's and 70's (and 80's and 90's)...they would be great today, as well.

Their numbers would change, of course, but to blindly claim that Lebron would average 50 ppg in the 60's, would be the equivalent of claiming that Wilt would average 50 ppg in this era. We are seeing what happens when Lebron takes 36 FGAs, and it isn't close to 50 ppg.

[warriorfan]

What about Lebron? Yes, he is a once-in-a-generational great. But, he is not facing any better brand of basketball today, than what was played in the 60's and 70's. Different, yes. Better, no.

Have you watched footage of Dr. J, who was playing college ball in the 60's. Take a moment and read up on Gus Johnson. Havlicek was drafted by the NFL. Rick Barry was a great athlete, and look no further than his son, Brent Barry, who won a slam-dunk contest. Watch footage of Pistol Pete. If a 6-3 Rubio can start in the NBA, than Maravich would be a force.

In the 70's, Bob McAdoo had a similar skill-set as Durant, and in one season, playing 42 mpg, in an NBA that averaged 102.6 ppg, he averaged 34.5 ppg.

If you think the 60's and 70's were filled with nerds, you are dead wrong.

Don't bring up Rick and Brent Barry up as in the same league of athleticism as LeBron. Dr J was very athletic of course but still not as fast and strong as LBJ. Gus Johnson was an impressive physical specimine but he was not as big or skilled as LBJ.

I don't think 60's and 70's were filled with stiffs. I do think that LBJ is the best athlete in the league today, and he would be the best athlete in the league in the 60's only maybe 2nd to Wilt.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Baylor's getting disrespected man..he led the playoffs in scoring 4 times, how many players have done that? Looking at the modern great scorers, Kobe 3x, Durant 3, Lebron 2, AI 2, Tmac 2, Shaq 1. Baylor made it to the Finals 3 of those times too so it's not like he was Tmac repping a high ppg in the first round. Only MJ (10), KAJ and Gervin (5) led the playoffs in scoring more than Baylor.

[plowking]

Nah. He's been validating his own greatness.

[aj1987]

:roll:

'60's... :roll:

[sundizz]

You are comparing a 6'5 225 lb player with decently good athleticism to a top 3 physical specimen that has ever graced the hardwood. A 6'8 255+ lb man with breakneck speed, running back level agility, and the sort of touch that makes every layup look easy.

Lol.

There truly is no comparison. Lebron would of had people just bouncing off him in that era.

I watched that ridiculous boring and long clip and saw nothing that comes even close to the ridiculous level of speed and explosion Bron has. Elgin scores way more off skill than any superb physical advantage from most of those clips. Bron is a freight train that you have to foul to even try and stop once he gets a step.