LeBron's 5 consecutive finals apperences - unprecedented in the modern era

[mehyaM24]

we hear about the east being weak (it is..don't get me wrong), but its LITERALLY no weaker than the eastern conference of the early 2000s or the watered down 90s.

yes, i originally said it wasn't that impressive - but i've come to the conclusion that even i am spoiled by lebron's greatness. the best player in the game is doing something historical - winning a 60+ win atlanta hawks team without his best players who are allstar caliber, but WITH new york knicks' rejects - unreal..

now unlike most casual fans, i hate ring counting. its counter productive & generally void of any perspective. now that being said, IF lebron were to lead his team to a ring, and he were to play at a similar and/or even higher level, there will be goat talks - as there should be. you just don't beat one of the greatest teams (warriors are statistically one of the best teams of all-time relative to competition) with a cast equivalent to the bad news bears.

so yes, if lebron were to do that, he would be a consensus top 3 player. as he were to do 2 of the following things:

-win the city of cleveland a championship
-lead his team to victory against one of the greatest units ever

until the finals :applause:

[SpaceJammeR]

I too agree. I thought the cavs had no chance against the bulls and Atlanta with love out and kyrie injured. If they some how best the warriors there will be a lot of suicides.

[funnystuff]

If Bron beats the Warriors, :roll: @ what this board will become.

[COnDEMnED]

5 consecutive finals appearances doesn't sound that impressive when you jump from super friends to super friends 2.0. He'd probably get more credit for this finals if it was at least with the Heat (which that of itself was despicable).

Will people drool over 6 finals appearances in a row if he jumps ship after this season to join the Spurs as super friends 3.0 and they make it to the finals? Where do you draw the line?

[Fudge]

LeBron James.
Yes, I know.

[Young X]

It's both. Bron's greatness and the lack of competition in the east have to do with it. The same caliber of teams he has lost to in the finals are the teams he'd have to face in the the 1st 2 rounds if he played in the west most years.

And the 90's east was way better than it is now. Stop it.

[tmacattack33]

5 consecutive finals appearances doesn't sound that impressive when you jump from super friends to super friends 2.0. He'd probably get more credit for this finals if it was at least with the Heat (which that of itself was despicable).

Will people drool over 6 finals appearances in a row if he jumps ship after this season to join the Spurs as super friends 3.0 and they make it to the finals? Where do you draw the line?

If he goes to San Antonio, and then Leonard, Duncan, and Parker all get injured and he takes Patty Mills, Ginobli, and Diaw to the Finals then yes that will be just as impressive as this year.

[mehyaM24]

If Bron beats the Warriors, :roll: @ what this board will become.
the forum would be littered with naysayers trying to downplay lebron's greatness - but among the common fan, media, peers and analytic heads, the guy will be in the GOAT tier - and that's all that matters.

another finals appearance by itself is amazing when you consider its a NEW team that is plagued with injuries. a championship would be unheard of.

[COnDEMnED]

If he goes to San Antonio, and then Leonard, Duncan, and Parker all get injured and he takes Patty Mills, Ginobli, and Diaw to the Finals then yes that will be just as impressive as this year.
Trick question. Lebron would never ring chase in the western conference. Too much adversity.

[buddha]

but its LITERALLY no weaker than the eastern conference of the early 2000s or the watered down 90s.


if it was literally no weaker than there would have been an eastern super-team in the early 2000's comprised of 3 Team USA players.

for example if Vince Carter teamed up with Kevin Garnett and Allen Iverson in their primes like some other balding superstar, Carter would have gone to 5 straight finals in that era.

[Kingwillball]

if it was literally no weaker than there would have been an eastern super-team in the early 2000's comprised of 3 Team USA players.

for example if Vince Carter teamed up with Kevin Garnett and Allen Iverson in their primes like some other balding superstar, Carter would have gone to 5 straight finals in that era.

The Kobe stans disgust me seriously so much insecurity and hate for lebron anything to try to convince themselves lebron isn't the better player and will finish higher in all time lists.

[HOoopCityJones]

Dat collusion rate.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Top 1 GOAT.

[LeBird]

5 consecutive finals appearances doesn't sound that impressive when you jump from super friends to super friends 2.0. He'd probably get more credit for this finals if it was at least with the Heat (which that of itself was despicable).

Will people drool over 6 finals appearances in a row if he jumps ship after this season to join the Spurs as super friends 3.0 and they make it to the finals? Where do you draw the line?

First name how many players have gone to 5 straight finals. Then while you're at it, let us know their team strength relative to the league.

Ironically, Lebron's done it with the least help.

[ArbitraryWater]

ah, I see I convinced you :cheers:

[Blue&Orange]

we hear about the east being weak (it is..don't get me wrong), but its LITERALLY no weaker than the eastern conference of the early 2000s or the watered down 90s.
:roll: :lol :oldlol: :roll:

no really


:roll: :lol :oldlol: :roll:

[sekachu]

we hear about the east being weak (it is..don't get me wrong), but its LITERALLY no weaker than the eastern conference of the early 2000s or the watered down 90s.

yes, i originally said it wasn't that impressive - but i've come to the conclusion that even i am spoiled by lebron's greatness. the best player in the game is doing something historical - winning a 60+ win atlanta hawks team without his best players who are allstar caliber, but WITH new york knicks' rejects - unreal..

now unlike most casual fans, i hate ring counting. its counter productive & generally void of any perspective. now that being said, IF lebron were to lead his team to a ring, and he were to play at a similar and/or even higher level, there will be goat talks - as there should be. you just don't beat one of the greatest teams (warriors are statistically one of the best teams of all-time relative to competition) with a cast equivalent to the bad news bears.

so yes, if lebron were to do that, he would be a consensus top 3 player. as he were to do 2 of the following things:

-win the city of cleveland a championship
-lead his team to victory against one of the greatest units ever

until the finals :applause:


The 90s have knick, pacer, heat, magic as a long term stable competitive teams against the bulls. There are no such teams in the last 10 years in the east that lebron has to play against.

[Mr Feeny]

The 90s have knick, pacer, heat, magic as a long term stable competitive teams against the bulls. There are no such teams in the last 10 years in the east that lebron has to play against.I'm starting to think he's 11 years old. Don't talk about the 90's Pacers. This kid wasn't even around to watch the mid 2000's Pistons, never mind anything a decade earlier.

[Ne 1]

http://oi62.tinypic.com/3160lk4.jpg






LeBron James' NBA Finals runs come with an asterisk


As much as LeBron James has accomplished in his career, he's had one important handicap: The Eastern Conference.



http://www.sbnation.com/2015/4/22/8467163/lebron-james-nba-finals-eastern-conference-chart



What's the worst thing about the East?

http://espn.go.com/blog/marc-stein/post/_/id/521/lamenting-the-leastern-conference

Marc Stein: For me it's the fact we've been calling it the Leastern Conference since Michael Jordan won his last title with the Bulls. It's not a good enough line to use for 15 years straight, but the East has continued to be considerably thinner/weaker/pick-your-adjective than the West in virtually every season since MJ left the Bulls in the summer of 1998. Simply astounding.

[Mr Feeny]

http://oi62.tinypic.com/3160lk4.jpg







As much as LeBron James has accomplished in his career, he's had one important handicap: The Eastern Conference.



What's the worst thing about the East?

http://espn.go.com/blog/marc-stein/post/_/id/521/lamenting-the-leastern-conference

.

In other words Lebron lead his team to 5 straight finals as the man (6 total) and Kobe could only do it a measly twice :eek:

[Ne 1]

In other words Lebron lead his team to 5 straight finals as the man (6 total) and Kobe could only do it a measly twice :eek:
3 straight Finals in the Finals in the West twice (2000-2002) (2008-2010) >>>> 5 straight Finals in the JV league

[ImKobe]

In other words Lebron lead his team to 5 straight finals as the man (6 total) and Kobe could only do it a measly twice :eek:

2001 - Kobe easily best player, 32/7/6 on 51% first 3 rounds, 11-0 record with 4 straight road games vs Kings & Spurs

2004 - Shaq was clearly the 2nd option, more efficient than Kobe but nevertheless a 2nd option

2008-10, I don't think I need to say anything here...30/6/6 for 3 straight Finals runs, very dominant in all 3 Conference Finals appearances, his best Playoff series.

Kobe led 5 teams to the Finals as the man, plus in 2000 he led the team in 4 categories with a 25/12/7/4 blocks game in Game 7, 2002 he averaged 31/11/6 on 44/68/91 shooting in Games 6 & 7 vs Sacramento in the WCF

Kobe's entire body of work shits on Lebron's, sorry.

[ArbitraryWater]

I remember ImKobe saying Kobe was a great sidekick in 2001.. then it was he carried an equal share in the first 3 rounds, then he was co-MVP, then he was the best player of the entire run, and now he is "easily the best player"...

the story changes decades after it happened :oldlol:

Avoiding Shaq being so damn superior to Kobe in 2004, he now says "Kobe was the first option".. tee-hee ImKobe, who cares, Shaq absolutely shitted on Kobe in 2004.

[Ne 1]

2001 - Kobe easily best player, 32/7/6 on 51% first 3 rounds, 11-0 record with 4 straight road games vs Kings & Spurs


Spurs Western Conference Finals:

http://oi57.tinypic.com/2m4t4jn.jpg

[Ne 1]

I remember ImKobe saying Kobe was a great sidekick in 2001.. then it was he carried an equal share in the first 3 rounds, then he was co-MVP, then he was the best player of the entire run, and now he is "easily the best player"...


Either way, it was far more of a two headed monster L.A. in 2001/2002 and much closer to Co-MVPs than just Shaq and his little side-kick Robin aka Kobe Bryant as detractors of Kobe like to believe. The problem is some people with an agenda like to put a qualifier on Kobe's rings he won with Shaq and just write them off as "side-kick rings" and that's diminishing what he actually was.

[plowking]

Either way, it was far more of a two headed monster L.A. in 2001/2002 and much closer to Co-MVPs than just Shaq and his little side-kick Robin aka Kobe Bryant as detractors of Kobe like to believe. The problem is some people with an agenda like to put a qualifier on Kobe's rings he won with Shaq and just write them off as "side-kick rings" and that's diminishing what he actually was.

It wasn't though.

Shaq was clearly better. He was higher every year they won the title in the MVP race. He won FMVP in every year they won the title.

The only year that was close to true is 00-01.

[Mr Feeny]

It wasn't though.

Shaq was clearly better. He was higher every year they won the title in the MVP race. He won FMVP in every year they won the title.

The only year that was close to true is 00-01.

Shhh don't talk sense. Let him believe what he wants.

[Ne 1]

It wasn't though.

Shaq was clearly better. He was higher every year they won the title in the MVP race. He won FMVP in every year they won the title.

The only year that was close to true is 00-01.

Well the consensus was that Shaq was the best player in the league, but if you're going to try to use that to discredit Kobe, then you have to take into account the consensus was also that Kobe was a top 2-3 player in his own right starting around the '01 playoffs, so it shouldn't even matter that he was playing with someone who was slightly better at the time. Heck, nobody seems to care that Magic won with Kareem, Magic is considered to be a 5x champion and nobody puts a qualifier on any of his rings even though Magic only won 2 rings as the undisputed best player on the team. Kobe was actually much closer to Shaq in 2001 and 2002 than Magic was to Kareem in 1980, yet all 5 of his rings "count" but only 2 of Kobe's rings "count." :oldlol:

Also simply saying Shaq was the FMVP every year as some kind of indicator that Kobe doesn't deserve credit for those championships is disingenuous. During the 3-peat he put up 21/5/4, 29/7/6, 27/6/5. That's on par with or better than some "1 option" rings.

[HOoopCityJones]

Even Scottie Pippen could rack up Finals appearances if you drop him in the weak East of the last 15 years, in his prime.

[ArbitraryWater]

Kobe had it alot easier in the West from 2008-2010, not sure he can make it through consecutive series' of Celtics/Cavs/Magic.. obviously we know he wouldn't stod a chance with the teams Bron/Wade had.

But this I find more interesting.. put prime Kobe on those Heat teams, can he beat the Celtics/Bulls in 2011? Perhaps... not sure he can co-exist with Wade.
2012 well we know he isn't reaching that level Bron played at for 3 straight series' to barely scrap by and become the first team ever to win 3 series when down, 2013, he can't deliver that all-around game, shutting down West/PG, scoring, rebounding so pretty easy no, and 2014 he isn't gonna make the finals with a bunch of guys heading into retirement, dropping an efficient 49, etc. so another pretty easy no.

[HOoopCityJones]

Kobe had it alot easier in the West from 2008-2010, not sure he can make it through consecutive series' of Celtics/Cavs/Magic.. obviously we know he wouldn't stod a chance with the teams Bron/Wade had.

But this I find more interesting.. put prime Kobe on those Heat teams, can he beat the Celtics/Bulls in 2011? Perhaps... not sure he can co-exist with Wade.
2012 well we know he isn't reaching that level Bron played at for 3 straight series' to barely scrap by and become the first team ever to win 3 series when down, 2013, he can't deliver that all-around game, shutting down West/PG, scoring, rebounding so pretty easy no, and 2014 he isn't gonna make the finals with a bunch of guys heading into retirement, dropping an efficient 49, etc. so another pretty easy no.


:roll:

[Mr Feeny]

:roll:

It's true, though. He'd have gone out in the semis.

[HOoopCityJones]

It's true, though. He'd have gone out in the semis.

You're an idiot, Kobe couldn't best the Two Teams he beat for his 4th and 5th title? Just because Bron folded?

Even dumber than I thought Feeny/Aw.

[ArbitraryWater]

:roll:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You're an idiot, Kobe couldn't best the Two Teams he beat for his 4th and 5th title? Just because Bron folded?

Even dumber than I thought Feeny/Aw.
Yikes. AW/Feeny getting absolutely lit up in here.

Hey boys, do you see your shadow running after you? :lol

[ArbitraryWater]

Feeny, breh, what do we do? :lol

thought about recording my laughter rn... this shit serious. thread was about to fall off a cliff, only one interested in this alt talk da mighty one

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Wanna give another shoutout. That was an absolute viscous ether from HOoopCityJones.

Good work boss :pimp:

[ArbitraryWater]

Wanna give another shoutout. That was an absolute viscous ether from HOoopCityJones.

Good work boss :pimp:

:oldlol:

lov you breh.. PM me so we can exchange some personal info, maybe skyping so we can actually get to know each other besides this playful shit?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

:oldlol:

lov you breh.. PM me so we can exchange some personal info, maybe skyping so we can actually get to know each other besides this playful shit?
:cheers:

In due time, young foreigner. We gotta get past 2nd base before anything.

[ArbitraryWater]

:cheers:

In due time, young foreigner. We gotta get past 2nd base before anything.

never got this whole base shit but we'll make it there :banana:

[sportjames23]

I remember ImKobe saying Kobe was a great sidekick in 2001.. then it was he carried an equal share in the first 3 rounds, then he was co-MVP, then he was the best player of the entire run, and now he is "easily the best player"...

the story changes decades after it happened :oldlol:

Avoiding Shaq being so damn superior to Kobe in 2004, he now says "Kobe was the first option".. tee-hee ImKobe, who cares, Shaq absolutely shitted on Kobe in 2004.


LOL, you noticed that, too, huh?

[ArbitraryWater]

LOL, you noticed that, too, huh?

im smart like that nikka

[Mr Feeny]

Feeny, breh, what do we do? :lol

thought about recording my laughter rn... this shit serious. thread was about to fall off a cliff, only one interested in this alt talk da mighty one

I'm unsure why we, specifically, are supposed to be alts:oldlol:
Do we have the same posting patterns? Yeah mate. I've laughed out loud several times. Whatever Kobe stans wanna believe :cheers:

[stanlove1111]

3 straight Finals in the Finals in the West twice (2000-2002) (2008-2010) >>>> 5 straight Finals in the JV league



There is no doubt that Lebron at his best or even near his best is a much better and more valuble to a team player then Kobe. Its silly to even argue the point anymore. One thing that sums up Kobe vs Lebron that takes all the nonesense out of it like whether they played in the West or East and things like that is the 2008 playoffs.

Lebron at 23 years old and far from his best carried a really weak team to the 7th game against the Celtics and the series could have gone either way. Kobe in the same year at 29 and right in his prime and with a much better team around him then Lebron got blown out in 6 games by this same Celtic team. It makes total sense to me because thats how much more valuable to a team Lebron was then Kobe.

Team Lebron up with prime Shaq and you don't need refs going to jail or huge comebacks in 4th quarters to win titles or even go to the finals.

[PickernRoller]

If Bron beats the Warriors, :roll: @ what this board will become.

Keep begging the lord for that.... 10 reps a day.

[ImKobe]

I remember ImKobe saying Kobe was a great sidekick in 2001.. then it was he carried an equal share in the first 3 rounds, then he was co-MVP, then he was the best player of the entire run, and now he is "easily the best player"...

the story changes decades after it happened :oldlol:

Avoiding Shaq being so damn superior to Kobe in 2004, he now says "Kobe was the first option".. tee-hee ImKobe, who cares, Shaq absolutely shitted on Kobe in 2004.

Who took more shots? Who was ahead of who in regular season MVP ranking since the 2002-03 season?

Just because Shaq was more efficient as a 2nd option doesn't mean he was the leader of the team...he was 32 and averaged 20 ppg and took 13 shots a game in the first 3 rounds

Kobe averaged 25 points a game and took 20 shots a game the first 3 rounds

"so damn superior"

There's no denying that Kobe was terrible in the 3 road games against Detroit, but he did win the only Finals game for LA in Game 2 :confusedshrug:

And what we do know is Kobe also came off knee surgery and re-injured his shoulder in the WCF with that reverse dunk on KG and his numbers were down all season, he was busy dealing with the court case, remember that 42-point game vs Spurs, where Kobe came into the Arena straight out of court?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3Wb9fSzefk

I don't recall calling Kobe a "great" sidekick in the first 3 rounds of the 2001 Playoffs. Averaging 32/7/6 and taking 23 shots a game is not something a sidekick does. That's 1st option numbers. Shaq took 21 shots a game.

[aj1987]

Are we ignoring the FACT that Shaq put up 30/15/3 on 55% through the first 3 rounds, while commanding doubles and trips on almost every play, leaving Kobe wide open?

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Are we ignoring the FACT that Shaq put up 30/15/3 on 55% through the first 3 rounds, while commanding doubles and trips on almost every play, leaving Kobe wide open?

We're not, he will. That or we'll get to see a hilarious attempt to spin it into something pro-Kobe. :oldlol:

[Magic 32]

while commanding doubles and trips on almost every play, leaving Kobe wide open?

Can you show me those wide open shots?

[Ne 1]

Can you show me those wide open shots?
People like to say Shaq made the game easier for Kobe because he was getting double teamed. I find this hilarious because Kobe would also draw double teams too and made the game easier for Shaq as well. How many times have we seen highlights from that era of Kobe penetrating into the paint drawing a second defender then dropping the ball into Shaqs hands for an open power slam? People always brings this up as if Kobe was just getting spoon feed open shots. Teams weren't playing off of Kobe to double Shaq, the double teams came from the other positions more often than not. If anything, Kobe directly created for Shaq more with his penetration. Kobe's points didn't come easily, and he provided more than just scoring. Kobe was the best SG in the league ... you don't think defensive schemes weren't being drawn up to focus on the best perimeter scorer/player in the game back then? You don't think teams were worrying about Kobe? Do people really think that teams doubled off of Kobe Bryant off all players? Maybe if they got a rotation wrong and tried to help one pass away. Even in 2000, teams would much rather double off of guys like Ron Harper and AC Green.

[Hey Yo]

Well the consensus was that Shaq was the best player in the league, but if you're going to try to use that to discredit Kobe, then you have to take into account the consensus was also that Kobe was a top 2-3 player in his own right starting around the '01 playoffs, so it shouldn't even matter that he was playing with someone who was slightly better at the time. Heck, nobody seems to care that Magic won with Kareem, Magic is considered to be a 5x champion and nobody puts a qualifier on any of his rings even though Magic only won 2 rings as the undisputed best player on the team. Kobe was actually much closer to Shaq in 2001 and 2002 than Magic was to Kareem in 1980, yet all 5 of his rings "count" but only 2 of Kobe's rings "count." :oldlol:

Also simply saying Shaq was the FMVP every year as some kind of indicator that Kobe doesn't deserve credit for those championships is disingenuous. During the 3-peat he put up 21/5/4, 29/7/6, 27/6/5. That's on par with or better than some "1 option" rings.
But 1st options putting up those numbers in the Finals are/were seeing much more intense defense thrown at them than what Kobe was seeing.

It's safe to say, while Shaq was there, Kobe saw more single coverage than double. That's the difference between first and second options.

[PickernRoller]

But 1st options putting up those numbers in the Finals are/were seeing much more intense defense thrown at them than what Kobe was seeing.

It's safe to say, while Shaq was there, Kobe saw more single coverage than double. That's the difference between first and second options.

So Lebron is 0/6 then? We're talking about the guy (Lebron) that the Spurs dared to shoot jumpers here.... such a joke. Every argument falls apart in seconds.

5/6>2/6 and Lebron fans will have to come accustomed to dealing with that. Top 15 is not something to be ashamed off. He's just not Top 10, nor better than Kobe for that matter - the gap is clear.

[Ne 1]

Kobe detractors love to say how Shaq commanding defensive attention opened up the game for Kobe but Kobe's pick and rolls also caused the big men to go back. Kobe slashing through the defense broke teams down so they were unable to get back to Shaq. If they couldn't get back, its a problem. Kobe creates for Shaq directly with his penetration and nobody got the ball to Shaq better than Kobe did. Kobe's clutch ability and ability to consistently take over in 4th quarters also helped Shaq tremendously. Defenders stayed on Shaq AND Kobe normally double-teams preferred to leave one of the other Lakers role players open for obvious reasons. Shaq didn't draw Kobe's defenders away or sacrifice his game for Kobe. Kobe did it for Shaq by venturing into the paint and being enough of a threat to draw Shaq's man off him. Shaq didn't play on the perimeter to draw off Kobe's man. Kobe would draw the defense and dish it to Shaq for the slam.

[HylianNightmare]

3 straight chips in Cleveland and he's the goat not just beating the warriors this year

[HOoopCityJones]

The notion Kobe never attracted double Teams and it was all Shaq is hilarious.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

5/6>2/6

:applause:

[coin24]

The level of ring chasing, colluding and team stacking in ones prime is unprecedented..
Fu*king pathetic really. Only outdone by his baby di.ck stans trying to tell us LeBald is the goat:lol

[Spurs5Rings2014]

The level of ring chasing, colluding and team stacking in ones prime is unprecedented..
Fu*king pathetic really. Only outdone by his baby di.ck stans trying to tell us LeBald is the goat:lol

I think the fact that him, another top 5 player and a top 10 (or whatever you wanna rank Bosh's 24/11 at) joined forces all in their prime, and this is an important one, all from the same conference (thus weakening it considerably) isn't taken into consideration by these stans is quite telling. Makes me almost believe they're trolling. Then you add to that, him leaving that roster once it started to fade, joining up with a 26/12/4 guy and 21/6 young promising talent as well making it even worse. You can even dump on top of that two 4th overall picks in Dion Waiters and Tristan Thompson, Waiters getting you some nice pieces, Thompson emerging as a fantastic player in his own right along with great pieces at a very low cost due to a bad GM in Jackson. All this considered in a historically weak conference that continues to be so due to all the top players joining up on one team or leaving to go out west (Howard). Ray Allen, the GOAT shooter at the time, who was originally a part of the first big 3, going to the Heat so that it now had 4 HOF'ers was enough to win another chip. Shooters out the wazoo on that roster signing for peanuts then a lot of those same shooters followig to Cleveland. I mean, all LeBron fans have to do is look at all of this objectively from others' eyes and it's easy to see just how silly it all is.

[guy]

It is correct that hating on Lebron too much for getting to the finals and losing isn't logical. At the same time, people shouldn't be glamorizing the fact that he gets to the Finals from the weaker conference anyway. It doesn't necessarily mean his team was the 2nd best team. And even if it did, why are we celebrating that? And where does it stop? Should we be celebrating 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc. place as well?

[Ne 1]

Kobe detractors love to say how Shaq commanding defensive attention opened up the game for Kobe but Kobe's pick and rolls also caused the big men to go back. Kobe slashing through the defense broke teams down so they were unable to get back to Shaq. If they couldn't get back, its a problem. Kobe creates for Shaq directly with his penetration and nobody got the ball to Shaq better than Kobe did. Kobe's clutch ability and ability to consistently take over in 4th quarters also helped Shaq tremendously. Defenders stayed on Shaq AND Kobe normally double-teams preferred to leave one of the other Lakers role players open for obvious reasons. Shaq didn't draw Kobe's defenders away or sacrifice his game for Kobe. Kobe did it for Shaq by venturing into the paint and being enough of a threat to draw Shaq's man off him. Shaq didn't play on the perimeter to draw off Kobe's man. Kobe would draw the defense and dish it to Shaq for the slam.



People like to say Shaq made the game easier for Kobe because he was getting double teamed. I find this hilarious because Kobe would also draw double teams too and made the game easier for Shaq as well. How many times have we seen highlights from that era of Kobe penetrating into the paint drawing a second defender then dropping the ball into Shaqs hands for an open power slam? People always brings this up as if Kobe was just getting spoon feed open shots. Teams weren't playing off of Kobe to double Shaq, the double teams came from the other positions more often than not. If anything, Kobe directly created for Shaq more with his penetration. Kobe's points didn't come easily, and he provided more than just scoring. Kobe was the best SG in the league ... you don't think defensive schemes weren't being drawn up to focus on the best perimeter scorer/player in the game back then? You don't think teams were worrying about Kobe? Do people really think that teams doubled off of Kobe Bryant off all players? Maybe if they got a rotation wrong and tried to help one pass away. Even in 2000, teams would much rather double off of guys like Ron Harper and AC Green.

Paging Hey Yo

[TheBigVeto]

Well the consensus was that Shaq was the best player in the league, but if you're going to try to use that to discredit Kobe, then you have to take into account the consensus was also that Kobe was a top 2-3 player in his own right starting around the '01 playoffs, so it shouldn't even matter that he was playing with someone who was slightly better at the time. Heck, nobody seems to care that Magic won with Kareem, Magic is considered to be a 5x champion and nobody puts a qualifier on any of his rings even though Magic only won 2 rings as the undisputed best player on the team. Kobe was actually much closer to Shaq in 2001 and 2002 than Magic was to Kareem in 1980, yet all 5 of his rings "count" but only 2 of Kobe's rings "count." :oldlol:

Also simply saying Shaq was the FMVP every year as some kind of indicator that Kobe doesn't deserve credit for those championships is disingenuous. During the 3-peat he put up 21/5/4, 29/7/6, 27/6/5. That's on par with or better than some "1 option" rings.

Magic is the same as Kobe. Taking undeserved credits for those 'rings'. Those rings didn't count for Kobe and Magic.

[oh the horror]

I think the fact that him, another top 5 player and a top 10 (or whatever you wanna rank Bosh's 24/11 at) joined forces all in their prime, and this is an important one, all from the same conference (thus weakening it considerably) isn't taken into consideration by these stans is quite telling. Makes me almost believe they're trolling. Then you add to that, him leaving that roster once it started to fade, joining up with a 26/12/4 guy and 21/6 young promising talent as well making it even worse. You can even dump on top of that two 4th overall picks in Dion Waiters and Tristan Thompson, Waiters getting you some nice pieces, Thompson emerging as a fantastic player in his own right along with great pieces at a very low cost due to a bad GM in Jackson. All this considered in a historically weak conference that continues to be so due to all the top players joining up on one team or leaving to go out west (Howard). Ray Allen, the GOAT shooter at the time, who was originally a part of the first big 3, going to the Heat so that it now had 4 HOF'ers was enough to win another chip. Shooters out the wazoo on that roster signing for peanuts then a lot of those same shooters followig to Cleveland. I mean, all LeBron fans have to do is look at all of this objectively from others' eyes and it's easy to see just how silly it all is.






Look, at the end of the day he's winning. We can all say what we want but he's figured out a formula for relatively easier roads to hardware and he's still playing them games and coming home with victories.

WITH THAT SAID however, everything you just posted IS apart of his legacy as well and when taken in context has to be considered along with the victories. The path to glory and the status of being a legend and all of that sports talk mumbo jumbo also has to do with the path taken and the context in which how it was done.


So yeah folks, all of what is said here is also being looked at.

[OG LeeTSkeeT]

wont mean shit when he can't execute in the finals while the first 2 won were on a stacked ring chasing team.