LeBron James' NBA Finals runs come with an asterisk

[HOoopCityJones]

Says sbnation

http://www.sbnation.com/2015/4/22/8467163/lebron-james-nba-finals-eastern-conference-chart


LeBron James has been to four consecutive NBA Finals series and five in his career. That accurately suggests a high level of dominance over the Eastern Conference. After all, James is in just his 12th season. His five conference titles in 11 full years is a darn strong rate.

The ring bearers of the previous generation -- Kobe Bryant and Tim Duncan -- have seven and six conference banners, respectively. They've each had at least 17 full seasons. LeBron is on pace to pass those two legends within the next couple of years, assuming his success in the East playoffs continues.

Of course, LeBron has a long way to go to catch up where it really matters: Actual NBA championships. LeBron has two. Kobe and Duncan each earned five. And therein lies the rub. LeBron's teams have won the East in half of his seasons. But once there, their success rate plummets. That fact, plus what we know about the NBA's deep conference imbalance, leads me to question whether winning the East is actually much of an achievement at all, at least compared to winning the West.

As it turns out, making the Finals out of the West has been a much more difficult challenge in most of the past 15 years. This chart shows the average regular season scoring margin of teams that each conference's champ beat in the playoffs each year.


https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/wwK0VXzr6OgRpxoM_NyMNKg4jYQ=/800x0/filters:no_upscale%28%29/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3630560/Paths-to-the-Finals.0.png



For instance, last year the Heat and Spurs won their conferences. The Heat's number is an average of scoring margins of the teams they beat to get to the Finals (the Bobcats, Nets and Pacers) and the Spurs' number is an average of scoring margins of the teams they beat to get to the Finals (the Thunder, Blazers and Mavericks). The Heat's average East playoff opponent strength was +1.06. The Spurs' average West playoff opponent strength was +4.24.

When you run those numbers over the past 15 seasons, the West path to the Finals has been appreciably more difficult 11 times, the East path has been more difficult three times and it was essentially a push once. The exceptions to the norm: From 2009 through 2012, when the East had multiple strong contenders and the West was more deep than daunting. James' teams missed the Finals the two years the East's opposition was best.

A comparison of the average difficulty of making the Finals in each of the trips LeBron, Kobe and Duncan have made paints as stark a picture. (Note: we didn't include Duncan's first Finals berth in 1999 since that was a bizarre lockout season.)


https://cdn1.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/DTd63EvRSYxgtfhBTnEyTNJPV1A=/800x0/filters:no_upscale%28%29/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3630642/Finals-Paths.0.png



LeBron's been to the Finals very frequently. But the data shows that the path to the Finals in the East -- where LeBron has spent his entire career -- is almost always easier. So, while the Finals berths are an accomplishment, they are a lesser accomplishment than making the Finals out of the West, especially in the case of LeBron's fellow all-timers who have racked up banners in the tougher conference.

This isn't about diminishing LeBron's accomplishments. It's about putting them in the proper context.

Tim Duncan flirted with the Orlando Magic in 2000. How many Finals would he have made if he'd jumped ship? Ten? Kobe was drafted by the Charlotte Hornets in 1996. How many Finals would he have made if he hadn't been traded? Twelve?

Of course, Duncan and Kobe have traditionally had better supporting casts and coaches, and the basic numbers used here don't account for injuries to opponents that may overrate the difficulty of the Finals paths. There's a lot of context missing from this basic study.

But it's something to keep in mind when we consider the greatness of Kobe, Duncan and the other stars of the West. Their paths to glory have been a lot tougher than the paths of their Eastern contemporaries.


I know some of ya'll gonna hate me for this, but fucc you it was an interesting read. :confusedshrug:

[dh144498]

water is wet.

[Magic 32]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/duh.gif

[HOoopCityJones]

water is wet.

Considering the debates going on here the past few days, I just thought it was an interesting read to consider. Not really tryna break mold here, lol.

[Cleverness]

edit: didn't notice that it was only the "path to the finals" which only includes 3 teams in the East

yeah, it is easier in the East.

[livinglegend]

Average scoring margin?
How exactly did they calculate that?
The article is not clear.

It's also interesting to see that Kobe had an easier finals run than the east winner in 2009 and 2010.

[HOoopCityJones]

Average scoring margin?
How exactly did they calculate that?
The article is not clear.

Basic math skills I suppose.

[livinglegend]

Basic math skills I suppose.

what exactly is the average scoring margin?

[HOoopCityJones]

Some more perspective on supporting casts.


I crunched the data and found an important footnote to LeBron James' five career NBA Finals appearances (including four straight). His path to the championship series went through much weaker teams than his contemporaries with lots of Finals trips (Tim Duncan and Kobe Bryant). This is an important piece of context when touting LeBron's dominance of the East. The East has largely been shallow and, compared to the West, weak during LeBron's reign.

Here's another important piece of context.

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/v9YqB4l0MNPcwG1zzF6yCWMzY64=/800x0/filters:no_upscale%28%29/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3670544/Supporting-casts.0.png



As noted, the data is from the valuable Basketball-Reference.com. If you go back through Duncan's Finals teams and subtract Duncan's Win Shares from the team total, you're left with -- on average -- a 49-win team. That's really quite good!

The same applies to Michael Jordan. (The numbers say that if you remove Jordan from the famous 72-win Bulls squad you'd still have a 55-27 squad. He had a really amazing supporting cast.) Kobe's average supporting cast during his seven Finals runs was equivalent to a 45-37 team, which is rather solid. He has a great deal of variance, though; his 2000 team would have won 54 games without him, while his 2004 team was roughly a 40-win team.

But LeBron's supporting casts have consistently been weaker than those of his Finals-heavy contemporaries. Two squads -- the 2014 Heat and 2007 Cavaliers -- would have had losing records without LeBron according to this method. Overall, LeBron's teams during his five Finals runs are barely above-average squads without him. To put it another way: None of them would be 50-win squads without him. Each of the other stars considered here have at least one 50-win supporting cast on the list, and Duncan has four.

Of course, those other guys had a higher success rate in the Finals. Duncan is 5-1 in the Finals. Jordan was 6-0. Kobe has gone 5-2. LeBron is currently 2-3. Context is everything. LeBron typically had an easier route to the Finals, but he was almost always carrying a thoroughly mediocre supporting cast with him. Even though Duncan and Kobe faced tougher paths, they usually had a lot more help to get there. Everything is relative.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Which is why many put asterisks under his ring count. Forget the lockout which in and of itself was shoddy (injuries), but 2013 might have been an even WORSE conference than 2015 which is saying something. Bucks, Rose-less Bulls, and the Pacers? Horrific.

SBNation is on point, but not saying anything new regarding the other finals appearances.

[livinglegend]

Does anyone know what's average scoring margin?
Where does it exactly come from?
It's good to see graphs and try to give them meanings, but what's the point of them if we don't know where exactly they come from.

[mehyaM24]

did lebron-led teams NOT beat the best west teams in 2012 & 2013?

i agree that the EC is weak. has been for a while. but do people seriously think miami don't make the finals those seasons? LOL

[dh144498]

It's also interesting to see that Kobe had an easier finals run than the east winner in 2009 and 2010.

It's a point to make that the winners of the East those 2 years were also not the favorites to make the finals.

[livinglegend]

Which is why many put asterisks under his ring count. Forget the lockout which in and of itself was shoddy (injuries), but 2013 might have been an even WORSE conference than 2015 which is saying something. Bucks, Rose-less Bulls, and the Pacers? Horrific.

SBNation is on point, but not saying anything new regarding the other finals appearances.

SBNation also said Lebron had a worse supporting cast.
Easier path, worse supporting cast. It evens out.

[lilteapot]

Who cares, eventually he has to beat the best team coming out of the Western Conference and he's done that twice. Nobody cares about the way he got there.

[livinglegend]

It's a point to make that the winners of the East those 2 years were also not the favorites to make the finals.

All of this discussion is pointless until someone tells us what exactly is scoring margin and how exactly it's calculated.

[Hey Yo]

Of course, Duncan and Kobe have traditionally had better supporting casts and coaches, and the basic numbers used here don't account for injuries to opponents that may overrate the difficulty of the Finals paths. There's a lot of context missing from this basic study.
eot

btw, the quote below is hilarious from the author of the article. Writes it as if it was Kobe's team for his first 3 rings.


Kobe's average supporting cast during his seven Finals runs was equivalent to a 45-37 team, which is rather solid.

[jlip]

Isn't some version of this thread created at least 3 times a day?

[24-Inch_Chrome]

This shit doesn't deserve a new response. From another thread:


East is weaker than the West. No disputes that.

This talk of "asterisks" is ridiculous though, so many championships could be slapped with asterisks for a wide variety of reasons (weak conference, refs, key injuries to opponents, etc.). There's no point in opening that can of worms, a ring is a ring is a ring, at least as far as the validity of a title.

Just leave it alone, the autistic children who seriously want to add asterisks can continue living in their delusional worlds and everyone else can carry on without seeing the NBA forum clogged up with the same crap every day.


Isn't some version of this thread created at least 3 times a day?

Yup. Shit posting at its finest.

[SouBeachTalents]

Then Magic's Finals runs need to come with an asterisk too. Seriously, look at his road to the Finals in '84, '85, and '87, with extremely stacked teams to boot

[Foster5k]

So, basically without LeBron, the East wouldn't have any championships for the past 7 years? That actually makes LeBron look even better. The savior of the East.

[lilteapot]

Then Magic's Finals runs need to come with an asterisk too. Seriously, look at his road to the Finals in '84, '85, and '87, with extremely stacked teams to boot
All this proves is that nobody will care about how Lebron got his titles, the only thing people remember is that he won them.

[ImKobe]

Bran stans avoiding this thread like the plague :kobe:

[Hey Yo]

The author of the article ought to do the same study on Magic and Bird of the 80's. People would then see that Bird would stay in the top 10 while Magic would drop to the top 20.

[HOoopCityJones]

This shit doesn't deserve a new response. From another thread:



Just leave it alone, the autistic children who seriously want to add asterisks can continue living in their delusional worlds and everyone else can carry on without seeing the NBA forum clogged up with the same crap every day.



Yup. Shit posting at its finest.

Some of you ni99as is blatantly ass hurt. :biggums:

No one told you to read or post here, from the title you should've known what this would be about.

BtW I don't think any of Bron's rings come with an Asterisk. Winning is winning.

But the break down was an interesting read.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Some of you ni99as is blatantly ass hurt. :biggums:

No one told you to read or post here, from the title you should've known what this would be about.

BtW I don't think any of Bron's rings come with an Asterisk. Winning is winning.

But the break down was an interesting read.

These threads shouldn't exist. They're created multiple times/day and contribute nothing to this forum, just clog up the front page. No one denies that the Eastern Conference is worse. Posting that it is time and time again despite no one arguing the contrary is 3ball-esque.

If this was the first time that argument had come up it wouldn't have received much vitriol but I'm tired of seeing the same crap every day.

[iTare]

What about n*ggas like wilt and russell? wasn't their road to the finals a much easier one too? cmon now fellas

[HOoopCityJones]

These threads shouldn't exist. They're created multiple times/day and contribute nothing to this forum, just clog up the front page. No one denies that the Eastern Conference is worse. Posting that it is time and time again despite no one arguing the contrary is 3ball-esque.

If this was the first time that argument had come up it wouldn't have received much vitriol but I'm tired of seeing the same crap every day.

Bruh get over yourself, if you wanted to talk real Basketball without bias the last place you'd be is here. This is literally the worst forum on the net when it comes to objective discussions.

Same threads are made everyday regardless of this one , it'll be buried under same bullshit within hours. Hell, way worse than this :confusedshrug:


Kenneth and the LBJ stans are probably plotting something as we speak.

I told you why I posted this, it wasn't to troll , you just got mad.

[livinglegend]

Bruh get over yourself, if you wanted to talk real Basketball without bias the last place you'd be is here. This is literally the worst forum on the net when it comes to objective discussions.

Same threads are made everyday regardless of this one , it'll be buried under same bullshit within hours. Hell, way worse than this :confusedshrug:


Kenneth and the LBJ stans are probably plotting something as we speak.

I told you why I posted this, it wasn't to troll , you just got mad.

I think the article you posted could be a good topic of discussion.
But you are refusing to answer my questions.
Is it because you don't know the answer?

[HOoopCityJones]

I think the article you posted could be a good topic of discussion.
But you are refusing to answer my questions.
Is it because you don't know the answer?

More to do with the fact that you're irrelevant.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Bruh get over yourself, if you wanted to talk real Basketball without bias the last place you'd be is here. This is literally the worst forum on the net when it comes to objective discussions.

Same threads are made everyday regardless of this one , it'll be buried under same bullshit within hours. Hell, way worse than this :confusedshrug:


Kenneth and the LBJ stans are probably plotting something as we speak.

I told you why I posted this, it wasn't to troll , you just got mad.

To be fair, I'm more irritated with the idea than with you. It's incessant on these forums and is a fairly weak and sensationalist argument that I've seen too many times to respond to properly.

Hopefully kenneth/others of his ilk and the Bron stans kill each other off.

[livinglegend]

More to do with the fact that you're irrelevant.

It's a legit question.
What's the point of discussing something you don't know what it really is, where it comes from?
It seems to me you just posted this article to troll.
You don't even really know what's it's talking about.
You say it's interessing, but you can't even answer a basic question about it.

[tmacattack33]

1. If the Eastern Conference was so bad, how come the Cavs in 2011 were at the bottom of the conference (yes, even before the injuries and trades)?


2. If the Eastern Conference was so bad, how come the Heat in 2015 were in the bottom half of the conference (yes, before the Bosh injury)?



Anyway, yes, the Eastern Conference has been bad. But Lebron's supporting casts (except in 2011 and 2013) were much weaker than any of Duncan's supporting casts were.

[Indian guy]

Which is why many put asterisks under his ring count.

This ****ing idiot :rolleyes:. The only people who I've seen undermine LeBron's rings are those who were already bitter/insecure of his success and trolled non-stop concerning him. Mainly Kobe and MJ/Bulls fans, who have zero credibility when it comes to him because of their obvious agenda. LeBron's been consensus top 10 in everyone's list for at least a couple of seasons now. That wouldn't be the case if "many" considered his rings asterisked.


Forget the lockout which in and of itself was shoddy (injuries)

Besides Rose going down(a player whose team LeBron owns), what other big-name player got injured in 2012? Especially one LeBron faced in the playoffs? I can't think of one. If anything, it was Miami who suffered a major injury to one of their top players(Bosh) in the playoffs, which almost cost them the title.


but 2013 might have been an even WORSE conference than 2015 which is saying something. Bucks, Rose-less Bulls, and the Pacers? Horrific.

The same Pacers who took them to 7 games and won 60+ games the following season? Besides, if Miami was such a lightweight that was fortunate enough to play in the weaker conference, makes you wonder how 2 powerhouses from the West in OKC and SAS lost to them. At the end of the day, you still have to beat the best from the other conference in a 7 game series. There are no flukes in the NBA. The best team always wins.

It's just pathetic how many fan-bases LeBron has shook that they have to resort to blatant trolling when it comes to his success.

[HOoopCityJones]

To be fair, I'm more irritated with the idea than with you. It's incessant on these forums and is a fairly weak and sensationalist argument that I've seen too many times to respond to properly.

Hopefully kenneth/others of his ilk and the Bron stans kill each other off.

I think this forum can be great at times man, you have people knowledgeable about the Retro days, like CavsFTW and LAZERUS, you got Kblaze coming into to solo a thread with wisdom every now and then , Jabbar being a God, RBA stanning the **** outta the Cavs. MarkMadsen, Gts, Droid, tpols, Cold Soul and the rest of the Laker faithful. (the real ones, not the trolls) and even The Knicks fans are good for a laugh every now and then.

[livinglegend]

1. If the Eastern Conference was so bad, how come the Cavs in 2011 were at the bottom of the conference (yes, even before the injuries and trades)?


2. If the Eastern Conference was so bad, how come the Heat in 2015 were in the bottom half of the conference (yes, before the Bosh injury)?



Anyway, yes, the Eastern Conference has been bad. But Lebron's supporting casts (except in 2011 and 2013) were much weaker than any of Duncan's supporting casts were.

Do you know what's average scoring margin?
If yes, how exactly does it determine the difficulty of a path to championship?

[24-Inch_Chrome]

You're right that this forum can be great. There are a lot of great posters, it's just unfortunate to see them marginalized in terms of volume compared to troll threads/posters.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

LOL at Indian dork calling anyone out. Bulls fan turned LeBron super-zealot. :oldlol:

[livinglegend]

If it is what I think it is ( the scoring margin average):

This year's cavs would have a more difficult road of the finals than GSW:

Cavs would be : +8.6
Warriors: 7.4

:biggums:

[JZ600]

No fkin shit the east is hella easy
But lebrons supporting cast is slightly overall weaker than the other greats like kobe duncan
And put lebron on any team in the west top 8... Instant favorites

[Wade's Rings]

The same Pacers who took them to 7 games and won 60+ games the following season? Besides, if Miami was such a lightweight that was fortunate enough to play in the weaker conference, makes you wonder how 2 powerhouses from the West in OKC and SAS lost to them. At the end of the day, you still have to beat the best from the other conference in a 7 game series. There are no flukes in the NBA. The best team always wins.

It's just pathetic how many fan-bases LeBron has shook that they have to resort to blatant trolling when it comes to his success.

The Hawks took the Celtics to 7 Games in 2008 I guess they were a great team. The Pacers won 56 Games last year not 60+.

Just because you beat a Western Conference Team doesn't mean you beat the best team from the Conference. It's a game of matchups and how Stars show up to play. If the 2006 Heat played the 2006 Spurs they lose that year.

Most NBA Champions are lucky in some way. The Best Team doesn't always win.
2011 Mavs won with Bron choking.
2009 Lakers didn't face the Celtics because KG got hurt.
2008 Celtics didn't face a fully healthy Lakers.
Hell even this years Warriors didn't face a fully healthy Memphis Squad.

There are lots of examples of injuries happening and champions benefiting from that. The beat team doesn't always win.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Then Magic's Finals runs need to come with an asterisk too.
True, but you gotta consider sample size, and the fact he faced better teams throughout (Suns, Blazers, Jazz, Mavs etc).

Besides LeBron's over the top fanbase, not many people take his titles seriously. They're more like pity rings. Teaming up with arguably the best player at the time, and a top 5 PF to make a super squad in an already crappy conference? Yeah it counts for something, but how much credit does he really get for stacking the deck against meek competition?

I still have him as a top 5 perimeter talent, and borderline top 10 player :confusedshrug:

[Wade's Rings]

True, but you gotta consider sample size, and the fact he faced better teams throughout (Suns, Blazers, Jazz, Mavs etc).

Besides LeBron's over the top fanbase, not many people take his titles seriously. They're more like pity rings. Teaming up with arguably the best player at the time, and a top 5 PF to make a super squad in an already crappy conference? Yeah it counts for something, but how much credit does he really get for stacking the deck against meek competition?

I still have him as a top 5 perimeter talent, and borderline top 10 player :confusedshrug:

The 2009-2011 East wasn't that weak.

2009
The Celtics won 61 Game, Cavs won 66, and the Magic won 59 Games. Plus the East had a winning record against the West that year. 3 Contenders that year.

2010
Cavs won 61 Games and the Celtics were much deeper than their 50 Wins. Celtics had injuries, etc. 3 Contenders this year again.

2011
Bulls had the Best record in the League. 3 more 50+ win teams in Miami, Boston, and Orlando. 4 Contenders this year(3 depending on how you see Orlando).

[Indian guy]

Besides LeBron's over the top fanbase, not many people take his titles seriously.

A sweeping statement with absolutely 0 basis in reality. Again, besides completely shook, agenda driven fanbases(Kobe/MJ/LA/Bulls fans), who would've undermined LeBron's rings irregardless of how they were achieved, who's not taking LeBron's rings seriously? How does he enjoy the reputation that he does if his accomplishments weren't taken seriously? You're trolling and need to stop.


Teaming up with arguably the best player at the time and a top 5 PF to make a super squad in an already crappy conference?

Yeah, if only their production in '12 and '13 actually matched the titles you've given them. And if only Miami didn't have a sub-.500 record with Wade and Bosh in the lineup together this season.

On a side note, it has always amused me how the biggest suck-ups of LeBron's "stacked" supporting cast to undermine his success are also the ones who have never, ever picked Miami when pitted against any former champion or even non-champion. It's such a contradictory dilemma for them :oldlol:


Yeah sure they count, but how much credit does he really get for stacking the deck against weak competition? :oldlol:

Considering the comfortable spot he enjoys in everybody's top 10, I'd say getting credit has been a non-issue for him.

[Wade's Rings]

Yeah, if only their production in '12 and '13 actually matched the titles you've given them. And if only Miami didn't have a sub-.500 record with Wade and Bosh in the lineup together this season.

In 2012 Wade was guarded by Paul George and doubled teamed all series long vs the Celtics. So the Pacers put their best Perimeter Defender on Wade and Wade got doubled. Lebron definitely benefited from that. Wade was still Top 5 that year IMO.

In 2013 Wade didn't play great the 1st 3 Rounds but he didn't have too. The Bulls & Bucks weren't legitimate threats and he played as well as was needed against them. He stepped up in the Finals and won them Game 4 and was big in Game 7.

Why are you comparing 2015 Wade to 2012 & 2013 Wade? Wade's Man Defense and Help Defense was much more Elite those years and He could play more minutes. 2012 Wade could arguably lead a team on his own as well(with a good enough supporting cast).

[Blue&Orange]

did lebron-led teams NOT beat the best west teams in 2012 & 2013?

i agree that the EC is weak. has been for a while. but do people seriously think miami don't make the finals those seasons? LOL
Yes Lebron with the "it's going to be easy team" the never done before 3 max players team beat two western teams, first with the help of the refs, second Ray Allen.

LOL indeed.

[ArbitraryWater]

True, but you gotta consider sample size, and the fact he faced better teams throughout (Suns, Blazers, Jazz, Mavs etc).

Besides LeBron's over the top fanbase, not many people take his titles seriously. They're more like pity rings. Teaming up with arguably the best player at the time, and a top 5 PF to make a super squad in an already crappy conference? Yeah it counts for something, but how much credit does he really get for stacking the deck against meek competition?

I still have him as a top 5 perimeter talent, and borderline top 10 player :confusedshrug:

damn since when you this retarded :biggums: :lol

[Miller for 3]

Imo, in Lebron's playoff career he is 1-7. Only the 2007 Spurs, 2008 Celtics, 2009 Magic, 2010 Celtics, 2011 Mavs, 2013 Spurs, and 2014 were above average teams that Lebron played. Lockout year doesn't count, and every team Lebron's team has beat was either hurt, terrible, tanking, or not trying

[plowking]

So the 2013 run doesn't take into account Bosh's injury?

And the other data shows Bron's teams were generally a lot worse off without him?

So what is the problem here? About to beat a 60 win team, and he beat the Bulls who would have made it to the second round out West anyway. People act like the Bulls were some easy feat, but they were a few minutes away from being down 3-1 to those Bulls. Now in hindsight it was easy...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

damn since when you this retarded :biggums: :lol
I don't speak broken english. Come again, young foreigner?

[Smoke117]

Notice how it's only Kobe dick suckers that are so shook up that they have to make this kind of thread? No actual real basketball fan ever makes a bullshit thread like this...because we don't have agendas. Hoopbitch doing damage control...lol. *smirk*

[eliteballer]

:bowdown:

[3ball]

Says sbnation

http://www.sbnation.com/2015/4/22/8467163/lebron-james-nba-finals-eastern-conference-chart



LeBron James has been to four consecutive NBA Finals series and five in his career. That accurately suggests a high level of dominance over the Eastern Conference. After all, James is in just his 12th season. His five conference titles in 11 full years is a darn strong rate.

The ring bearers of the previous generation -- Kobe Bryant and Tim Duncan -- have seven and six conference banners, respectively. They've each had at least 17 full seasons. LeBron is on pace to pass those two legends within the next couple of years, assuming his success in the East playoffs continues.

Of course, LeBron has a long way to go to catch up where it really matters: Actual NBA championships. LeBron has two. Kobe and Duncan each earned five. And therein lies the rub. LeBron's teams have won the East in half of his seasons. But once there, their success rate plummets. That fact, plus what we know about the NBA's deep conference imbalance, leads me to question whether winning the East is actually much of an achievement at all, at least compared to winning the West.

As it turns out, making the Finals out of the West has been a much more difficult challenge in most of the past 15 years. This chart shows the average regular season scoring margin of teams that each conference's champ beat in the playoffs each year.




https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/wwK0VXzr6OgRpxoM_NyMNKg4jYQ=/800x0/filters:no_upscale%28%29/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3630560/Paths-to-the-Finals.0.png



For instance, last year the Heat and Spurs won their conferences. The Heat's number is an average of scoring margins of the teams they beat to get to the Finals (the Bobcats, Nets and Pacers) and the Spurs' number is an average of scoring margins of the teams they beat to get to the Finals (the Thunder, Blazers and Mavericks). The Heat's average East playoff opponent strength was +1.06. The Spurs' average West playoff opponent strength was +4.24.

When you run those numbers over the past 15 seasons, the West path to the Finals has been appreciably more difficult 11 times, the East path has been more difficult three times and it was essentially a push once. The exceptions to the norm: From 2009 through 2012, when the East had multiple strong contenders and the West was more deep than daunting. James' teams missed the Finals the two years the East's opposition was best.

A comparison of the average difficulty of making the Finals in each of the trips LeBron, Kobe and Duncan have made paints as stark a picture. (Note: we didn't include Duncan's first Finals berth in 1999 since that was a bizarre lockout season.)


https://cdn1.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/DTd63EvRSYxgtfhBTnEyTNJPV1A=/800x0/filters:no_upscale%28%29/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3630642/Finals-Paths.0.png



LeBron's been to the Finals very frequently. But the data shows that the path to the Finals in the East -- where LeBron has spent his entire career -- is almost always easier. So, while the Finals berths are an accomplishment, they are a lesser accomplishment than making the Finals out of the West, especially in the case of LeBron's fellow all-timers who have racked up banners in the tougher conference.

This isn't about diminishing LeBron's accomplishments. It's about putting them in the proper context.

Tim Duncan flirted with the Orlando Magic in 2000. How many Finals would he have made if he'd jumped ship? Ten? Kobe was drafted by the Charlotte Hornets in 1996. How many Finals would he have made if he hadn't been traded? Twelve?

Of course, Duncan and Kobe have traditionally had better supporting casts and coaches, and the basic numbers used here don't account for injuries to opponents that may overrate the difficulty of the Finals paths. There's a lot of context missing from this basic study.

But it's something to keep in mind when we consider the greatness of Kobe, Duncan and the other stars of the West. Their paths to glory have been a lot tougher than the paths of their Eastern contemporaries.





I know some of ya'll gonna hate me for this, but fucc you it was an interesting read. :confusedshrug:
Proof gonna proof

And backed up by missing the playoffs in the West... :applause:

We now know that his Finals appearances mean little - the OP stats prove it along with actual events (missing playoffs in West)

[sdot_thadon]

Op was 1000% correct it should come with an asterisk:

Lebron 8 straight trips to the nba finals*


*= only replicated by the Boston celtics who actually made 10 straight from 58-66

aka 1 man dynasty.

[SpaceJam2]

Op was 1000% correct it should come with an asterisk:

Lebron 8 straight trips to the nba finals*


*= only replicated by the Boston celtics who actually made 10 straight from 58-66

aka 1 man dynasty.


Shut. It. Down. :applause:

Lol at only 3 in a row :lol

[34-24 Footwork]

Lol. Vicious bump :pimp:

[34-24 Footwork]

Notice how it's only Kobe dick suckers that are so shook up that they have to make this kind of thread? No actual real basketball fan ever makes a bullshit thread like this...because we don't have agendas. Hoopbitch doing damage control...lol. *smirk*

A few years later, the data checks out, COMPLETELY :eek:

I personally never thought he'd come out West to validate it, though.

[bullettooth]

Shut. It. Down. :applause:

Lol at only 3 in a row :lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RWvcuVKHa0

[Celtics 1825]

Imo, in Lebron's playoff career he is 1-7. Only the 2007 Spurs, 2008 Celtics, 2009 Magic, 2010 Celtics, 2011 Mavs, 2013 Spurs, and 2014 were above average teams that Lebron played. Lockout year doesn't count, and every team Lebron's team has beat was either hurt, terrible, tanking, or not trying
The team with the greatest record in NBA history wasn't above average??

[RRR3]

The team with the greatest record in NBA history wasn't above average??
They weren’t trying, obviously.

[GimmeThat]

here's the solution, if your team utilizes more than a 7-man rotation, you're stacked, and if you don't utilize a rotation of 7+, then average scoring margin means nothing

and the analogy, in the competition of the 200IM, having 2 of the worlds best breast stroke swimmer on your team won't mean anything, because the second one isn't going to participate

as if the Miami Heat didn't win the 2006 NBA championship

as to whether or not basketball is a rhythm sport and players need to be conditioned in order to perform. All stars are nightmares to specialists

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The team with the greatest record in NBA history wasn't above average??

Curry, Iggy, and Bogut were objectively hurt.

It's a shame that Curry isn't bitchmade enough to show up at a press conference with a leg brace like other people.

[ArbitraryWater]

Curry, Iggy, and Bogut were objectively hurt.

It's a shame that Curry isn't bitchmade enough to show up at a press conference with a leg brace like other people.

Nothing objectively hurt about Curry. Curry was objectively hurt a month+ before.

Bogut was objectively hurt for the Warriors.

Love and Irving were objectively hurt for the Cavaliers.

Backfire.

:lebronamazed:

[34-24 Footwork]

2008- Phantom Elbow

2018- Broken Hand for 4 games

2019- Groin injury (that only became serious when Pelicans weren't trading AD)

[ArbitraryWater]

2008- Phantom Elbow

2018- Broken Hand for 4 games

2019- Groin injury (that only became serious when Pelicans weren't trading AD)

https://media0.giphy.com/media/3ohjUQ81edgmV8Gu40/giphy.gif

[eliteballer]

:eek: