Hand-checking is alive and well....

[Im Still Ballin]

I'm seeing it in EVERY play-off game so far.

I don't want to hear jordan jockers bring this up anymore. The myth has been destroyed.

The toughest defense has been played post 2001-, when illegal defense was abolished and full zones were made legal. The combination of no Illegal defense and hand-checking has proved to throw the balance in the defenses favor.

[SourSamCassell]

Agreed,

It's like this. I'm sitting here watching the NBA playoffs and all I'm seeing is hand-checks on the perimeter. You are spot on with this thread

[Im Still Ballin]

It's a no brainer really

They expect us to think they can use an Illegal defense no call argument when it applies exactly the same for hand-checking!

Only.... Hand-checking is an interpretation and Illegal defense was a 2000 word rule book with a strict set of guidelines which boiled down to an easy to understand set of parameters...

[3ball]

.
:confusedshrug: .. But the hand-check and physicality ban is IN the rules and always will be.. Here's the NBA officially stating how the rule changes accomplished their objective of incresasing dribble-penetration - this is from the source, so it's not subjective opinion, just like Bill Gates vision for Microsoft was never considered subjective opinion:

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html


NBA.COM: Since the hand-checking rule was interpreted differently beginning in the 2004-05 season, the game has opened up. Players are penetrating and the floor is spread. As a result, scoring has risen every season. Was this anticipated back in 2004?

STU JACKSON: Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots -- having more time to shoot -- they tend to make more of them.


NBA.COM: Shooting percentages have risen since 2004-05 regardless of location -- at-the-rim shots, short- and deep-mid range and 3-pointers. Does this surprise you, especially the higher percentages from 3-point range?

STU JACKSON: It doesn't. With the rule and interpretation changes, it has become more difficult for defenders to defend penetration, cover the entire floor on defensive rotations and recover to shooters. With more dribble penetration, ball handlers are getting more opportunities at the rim.


NBA.COM: From an Xs and Os perspective, how have coaches adjusted to a more wide-open game? What have they done differently?

STU JACKSON: Coaches have utilized more space on the floor so to create more room for dribble penetration, two-man pick-and-roll basketball and dribble exchanges on the perimeter.


NBA.COM: When you watch the game today, does it closely resemble an international game or are there still distinct differences in the style of play?

STU JACKSON: Our game does more closely resemble an international game in terms of the style of play than it used to. However, there are distinct differences in the international game vs. the NBA game. The international game utilizes a pure zone defense (as opposed to the defensive three-second rule), which allows frontcourt players to stand in the middle of the lane and discourage cutting, passing and dribble penetration.

[Im Still Ballin]

.
Here's the NBA officially stating how the rule changes accomplished their objective of incresasing dribble-penetration - this is from the source, so it's not subjective opinion, just like Bill Gates vision for Microsoft was never considered subjective opinion:

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html


NBA.COM: Since the hand-checking rule was interpreted differently beginning in the 2004-05 season, the game has opened up. Players are penetrating and the floor is spread. As a result, scoring has risen every season. Was this anticipated back in 2004?

STU JACKSON: Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots -- having more time to shoot -- they tend to make more of them.


NBA.COM: Shooting percentages have risen since 2004-05 regardless of location -- at-the-rim shots, short- and deep-mid range and 3-pointers. Does this surprise you, especially the higher percentages from 3-point range?

STU JACKSON: It doesn't. With the rule and interpretation changes, it has become more difficult for defenders to defend penetration, cover the entire floor on defensive rotations and recover to shooters. With more dribble penetration, ball handlers are getting more opportunities at the rim.


NBA.COM: From an Xs and Os perspective, how have coaches adjusted to a more wide-open game? What have they done differently?

STU JACKSON: Coaches have utilized more space on the floor so to create more room for dribble penetration, two-man pick-and-roll basketball and dribble exchanges on the perimeter.


NBA.COM: When you watch the game today, does it closely resemble an international game or are there still distinct differences in the style of play?

STU JACKSON: Our game does more closely resemble an international game in terms of the style of play than it used to. However, there are distinct differences in the international game vs. the NBA game. The international game utilizes a pure zone defense (as opposed to the defensive three-second rule), which allows frontcourt players to stand in the middle of the lane and discourage cutting, passing and dribble penetration.
http://media.giphy.com/media/gGh4I6osbjyRa/giphy.gif

[SourSamCassell]

Ha ha! Got him son!

3ball get that weak shit out of here

[GIF REACTION]

https://33.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lry2ymLdj01r1m5qho1_500.gif

[3ball]

Ha ha! Got him son!


The ban on hand-checking and physicality is IN the rules - it is illegal to hand-check - no amount of delusions will change this fact son.

The league is soft as charmin - this is the consensus - EVERYONE thinks so.. :cheers:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=183958
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=370166

[Im Still Ballin]

Illegal defense WAS in the rulebooks. No amount of delusion will change this fact son.

You and that dumbass don better get your story straight because I'm seeing a shit load of contradictions

[SourSamCassell]

Illegal defense WAS in the rulebooks. No amount of delusion will change this fact son.

You and that dumbass don better get your story straight because I'm seeing a shit load of contradictions
Holy shit

HOLY SHIT

Shut it down

SHUT IT DOWN

3ball just got KILLED

http://www.picgifs.com/reaction-gifs/reaction-gifs/omg/omg079.gif

[GIF REACTION]

Illegal defense WAS in the rulebooks. No amount of delusion will change this fact son.

You and that dumbass don better get your story straight because I'm seeing a shit load of contradictions
http://media2.giphy.com/media/O2vD3pJRnaTVm/giphy.gif

[aj1987]

You guys are gonna break 3ball and it ain't gonna be pleasant. :oldlol:

[SourSamCassell]

This 3ball guy sounds like a broken record and I've only been here for a week or so!

[warriorfan]

im still beta stop making forum accounts all day and go get laid

[SourSamCassell]

im still beta stop making forum accounts all day and go get laid
http://img.pandawhale.com/post-41349-jonah-hill-oscars-cut-it-out-g-w5Tc.gif

[SourSamCassell]

3ball did you watch any of the Cleveland-Boston games?

I made a thread about it during game 4,very scrappy affair... How can you deny it when we all saw it?

Im Still Ballin makes a good point here

[3ball]

Illegal defense WAS in the rulebooks. No amount of delusion will change this fact son.


Illegal defense allowed legal hand-checking, various other legal physicality, and legal paint-camping.

Otoh, today's zones are only allowed outside the paint - inside the paint, defenders must stay within armslength of their man or vacate the paint, per the ban on paint-camping (defensive 3 seconds rule).. Of course, hand-checking and various other physicality is banned as well.

[Im Still Ballin]

Retard logic
:oldlol:

[Im Still Ballin]

Don't make me get the GIFs out, dweeb

[3ball]

Don't make me get the GIFs out, dweeb
What GIF's??

You don't have any GIF's of paint camping you dumbass.. :roll: :roll:

You gotta play in a tough era for that: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10866426&postcount=105

[Prometheus]

DAMN 3ball you need to step. your. shit. up.

[3ball]

DAMN 3ball you need to step. your. shit. up.


Here you go, just for you - the NBA now has more definitive ball-dominance data: The data (http://stats.nba.com/league/player/shots/#!/?sectionName=Touch%20Time%20Range&section=TouchTimeRange&range=Touch%206%2B%20Seconds&sort=FGA_FREQUENCY&dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) shows Lebron ranks 8th in the NBA's new dominance measure, defined as: "percentage of points scored with greater than 6 seconds of touch time"

37.5% of Lebron's points are scored by taking longer than 6 seconds (8th in entire league) - he and Harden were the only non-PG's in the top 50.. :eek:

Despite Lebron enjoying maximum opportunity to accumulate assists by playing point guard, MJ still got higher assist averages in the playoffs and Finals thru age 30 while playing off (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11064438&postcount=38)-ball.. Since MJ got more assists despite playing off-ball, that means he's the better passer, especially considering he was also undertaking a 25% higher scoring load in the playoffs (34 PPG to Lebron's 28 PPG) and massive 50% higher in the Finals (36 PPG to 24 PPG) all on better efficiency.

Also, MJ was a better passer at Lebron's own game - as a ball-dominating, point guard.. Despite Lebron's entire career as a ball-dominator and point guard (giving him maximum opportunity to accumulate assists), Lebron has never come anywhere near the 30/9/11 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-345-sum:pgl_basic) MJ put up during his 24-game stretch at PG, which included a stretch of 10 triple-doubles in 11 games.

MJ's point guard numbers were so ridiculous and so much better than anything Lebron or any other non-point guard has ever done, that it can't be chalked up as anomalous - that's clearly what MJ's production was as a point guard.

CLIFFS: MJ was a better passer while playing off-ball (higher assist averages thru age 30 in playoffs and Finals) AND he was better as a ball-dominant point guard (GOAT 30/9/11 run at PG).
.

[JebronLames]

Here you go, just for you - the NBA now has more definitive ball-dominance data: The data (http://stats.nba.com/league/player/shots/#!/?sectionName=Touch%20Time%20Range&section=TouchTimeRange&range=Touch%206%2B%20Seconds&sort=FGA_FREQUENCY&dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) shows Lebron ranks 8th in the league's new, clear-cut ball-dominance stat, defined as: "percentage of points scored with greater than 6 seconds of touch time"

37.5% of Lebron's points are scored by taking longer than 6 seconds (8th in entire league) - he and Harden were the only non-PG's in the top 50.. :eek:

MJ's higher assist numbers in the playoffs and Finals thru age 30 while playing a far more successful/superior OFF (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11064438&postcount=38)-ball brand of basketball mean he's the better passer, especially considering MJ was undertaking a 25% higher scoring load in the playoffs (34 PPG to 28 PPG) and 50% higher in the Finals (36 PPG to 24 PPG) all on better efficiency.

Also, MJ was a better passer at Lebron's own game - as a ball-dominating, point guard.. Despite Lebron's entire career as a ball-dominator and point guard (giving him maximum opportunity to accumulate assists), Lebron has never come anywhere near the 30/9/11 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-345-sum:pgl_basic) MJ put up during his 24-game stretch at PG, which included a stretch of 10 triple-doubles in 11 games.

MJ's point guard numbers were so ridiculous and so much better than anything Lebron or any other non-point guard has ever done, that it can't be chalked up as anomalous - that's clearly what MJ's production was as a point guard.
LeBron would be dropping 32/10/12 on better efficiency if he played in that era.

[3ball]

LeBron would be dropping 32/10/12 on better efficiency if he played in that era.


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/e026bdb37635f1d39f79bf0ad068f961.gif


Lebron wouldn't have anyone spreading the floor for him in previous eras..

The subsequent no-spacing would cause much smaller driving, passing, and cutting lanes than Lebron is used to seeing.. And with legal paint campers further clogging the lane, the paint would simply be closed on many more possessions - the perpetual glut in the paint would frequently force Lebron into the same mid-range game MJ is forced into above.

The only difference is that Lebron's worst percentage shot and achilles heel is his mid-range.. Otoh, both Jerry West (all-time shooter) and Ron Artest (DPOY) say MJ was the greatest jumpshooter in the game (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11291111&postcount=65).

[Sarcastic]

If they hand check, how can they shade?

[3ball]

If they hand check, how can they shade?


Hand-checking used on the player who has the ball.

But your post implies that you think man-to-man defenders can't play off their man - this is the simple ignorance of basic basketball rules.. Man-to-man defenders have been taught since the very beginnings of basketball to play off their man - it's considered bad man-to-man defense to hug your man.. A cursory eye test confirms that previous era defenders played off their man every possession as would be expected with man-to-man defense.

This is common knowledge by anyone who knows basic basketball rules or played on any level.. But furthermore, Rule 2a (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of Illegal Defense Guidelines says "weakside defenders may remain in the inside lane for 2.9 seconds", which permits defenders to sag all the way back into the paint for 2.9 seconds when their man is behind the corner or sideline 3-point line.

Again, this is nothing new - man-to-man defense has always allowed defenders to sag off their man - check out the defensive setup on MJ's last shot vs. Utah (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qeGR96SGzA) - Stockton, Hornacek and Malone are sagging off 3-point shooters and standing on the edge of the paint - that's the standard setup today and in all previous eras since the inception of the 3-point line.. And again, defenders can sag all the way into the paint for 2.9 seconds when their man is behind the corner or sideline 3-point line.

Of course, we already know that previous era defenses shaded big-time on screen rolls (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=358589&page=8).

[jimmybball]

I'm seeing it in EVERY play-off game so far.

I don't want to hear jordan jockers bring this up anymore. The myth has been destroyed.

The toughest defense has been played post 2001-, when illegal defense was abolished and full zones were made legal. The combination of no Illegal defense and hand-checking has proved to throw the balance in the defenses favor.

Evidence?

[Droid101]

3ball, hold this L:

[quote=Zach Lowe]WINNER: The Situational Superstar

We have one conception of a superstar max player

[Im Still Ballin]

Killing them softly Droid.

In before don posts some irrelevant articles

[Im Still Ballin]

"Bu-bu-bu-bu handchecking!"

Shit's clear as day

It is harder for elite players to score today

[Im Still Ballin]

I killed that myth weeks ago, especially when it came to posting up. Rule changes haven't done shit to low post games in the NBA. In fact with spacing it's gotten easier.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11106605&postcount=42

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11103793&postcount=30
You missed the point

It is harder now because there is no illegal defense

Nowdays sure we have better shooting, but that doesn't mean that players have to be like glue on the 3pt line. A defender can sag off a shooter and provide help defense on the iso possession. Players have become very effective at closing out. In the illegal defense days this defender couldn't sag off for long or he would be in violation of illegal defense. Point being, an individual can isolate on the wing, his teammates clear out and get a quality 1 on 1 play without hassle... This is the 90's in a nutshell. Today defenses don't have their hands tied behind their backs; they can adjust to the isolation play in a TEAM defense concept... Regardless of spacing via 3pt shooting, teams today can afford to sag off them because defenders have become very good rotators and good at closing out.

[Blue&Orange]

It is harder now because there is no illegal defense

How many times have you been owned and buried under this avalanche of facts that left you chocking and gagging like a $5 hooker? You're like those homeless nutjobs that preach about the end of the world.

[Im Still Ballin]

So you're calling Zach Lowe an idiot?

Lol.

[Blue&Orange]

So you're calling Zach Lowe an idiot?

Lol.
do you realize you just called yourself an idiot? :roll:

[Poetry]

I'm seeing it in EVERY play-off game so far.

I haven't seen it. What series are you talking about?

[GIF REACTION]

:biggums:

Zach Lowe is a casual fan - he has no reason to be any more knowledgeable than you or I.. The NBA's official statements are the only thing that we know is accurate - this is from the source and creator of the new rules, so it can't be considered subjective opinion, just like Bill Gates' vision for Microsoft was never considered subjective opinion:

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html


NBA.COM: Since the hand-checking rule was interpreted differently beginning in the 2004-05 season, the game has opened up. Players are penetrating and the floor is spread. As a result, scoring has risen every season. Was this anticipated back in 2004?

STU JACKSON: Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots -- having more time to shoot -- they tend to make more of them.


NBA.COM: Shooting percentages have risen since 2004-05 regardless of location -- at-the-rim shots, short- and deep-mid range and 3-pointers. Does this surprise you, especially the higher percentages from 3-point range?

STU JACKSON: It doesn't. With the rule and interpretation changes, it has become more difficult for defenders to defend penetration, cover the entire floor on defensive rotations and recover to shooters. With more dribble penetration, ball handlers are getting more opportunities at the rim.


NBA.COM: From an Xs and Os perspective, how have coaches adjusted to a more wide-open game? What have they done differently?

STU JACKSON: Coaches have utilized more space on the floor so to create more room for dribble penetration, two-man pick-and-roll basketball and dribble exchanges on the perimeter.


NBA.COM: When you watch the game today, does it closely resemble an international game or are there still distinct differences in the style of play?

STU JACKSON: Our game does more closely resemble an international game in terms of the style of play than it used to. However, there are distinct differences in the international game vs. the NBA game. The international game utilizes a pure zone defense (as opposed to the defensive three-second rule), which allows frontcourt players to stand in the middle of the lane and discourage cutting, passing and dribble penetration.
http://img.pandawhale.com/post-41349-jonah-hill-oscars-cut-it-out-g-w5Tc.gif

[3ball]

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-41349-jonah-hill-oscars-cut-it-out-g-w5Tc.gif
I know, bro - those darn facts.. So annoying

[3ball]

I've only been here for a week or so!


So you're a new fan.. that's great.

[SourSamCassell]

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-41349-jonah-hill-oscars-cut-it-out-g-w5Tc.gif

[3ball]

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-41349-jonah-hill-oscars-cut-it-out-g-w5Tc.gif
I know, bro - those darn facts.. So annoying

[3ball]

I've only been here for a week or so!


Welcome new fan!!!.. It's important to remember that the skill needed to play basketball in no-spacing was much higher, which produced superior players.

With no spacing in previous eras, the option of running offense to shift the spaced-out defenders and get an open shot wasn't available, so players had to settle for contested shots more often.. When teams don't run as much offense and settle for contested shots instead, pace and shot volume increase.

The volume shooting associated with 2-pointer basketball and the wider repertoires needed to navigate defenders in closer proximity enabled previous era wings to put more pressure on defenders than today's wings - higher volume and wider repertoires meant previous eras wings were more of a threat to have a big game than today's 3-and-D players.

Otoh, today's game requires a slower pace - the spacing necessitates running more offense to shift the spaced-out defenders and set up open 3-point looks.. Also, smaller offensive repertoires are necessary for the wider lanes provided by 3-point shooting and spacing-out environments.. Naturally, it's not surprise that today's 3-and-D wings are less of a threat to go off for a big game and pose less of a threat individually to the defense.. Again, this is in contrast to the more diverse mid-range games (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11188520&postcount=37) of previous eras, which enabled repeated contested shots and therefore less time-consuming offense.
.

[oarabbus]

Jordan would have been a role player with today's defenses. Like OJ Mayo, or maybe a non-retarded JR Smith.

[DonDadda59]

Jordan would have been a role player with today's defenses. Like OJ Mayo, or maybe a non-retarded JR Smith.

Or Kobe in the Jordan era.

[JohnFreeman]

Welcome back brother

[Im Still Ballin]

Welcome back brother
Cheers brother

[Im Still Ballin]

This Wizards game is hand-check central!

[Eric Cartman]

This Wizards game is hand-check central!

Can you provide evidence of this?

Will be waiting