GM's don't know how to build around today's star PG's

[3ball]

You can't surround a star PG with too many bird-fed players - that gives them license to control all the playmaking and decision-making on the offensive end.. This turns the team into a predictable 1-playmaker team (or very few playmakers).... and 1-playmaker teams < multiple playmaker teams.

Instead of bird-fed players, a star PG should be surrounded by guys that don't need to be bird-fed and can playmake for themselves.

By surrounding the PG with guys that can playmake for themselves, this forces the point guard to FIT IN to his team, rather than RUN his team and be the focal point of the offense.

GM's should surround star PG's with guys like Dumars, Aguirre, James Edwards, Vinnie Johnson - guys that can create their own shot and playmake... The playmakers must outnumber the bird-fed guys (Rodman, John Salley, Laimbeer).

However, GM's **** it up by surrounding PG's with too many bird-fed players - for example, on the Clippers, they have more bird-fed guys (Redick, Deandre, Barnes, Hawes, Big Baby) than playmakers (Crawford, Blake).. CP3 is FORCED to make a much higher proportion of the plays and the team is forced to rely on him as the focal point of the offense.

But other than Magic (who legitimately played all 5 positions every game), no point guard has ever won a championship by being the focal point of their team's offense.. Before you say Isiah did - you're wrong - his offensive contribution to the team was the same as his teammates (his offensive win share was always equal with all his teammates, which definitively proves they contributed just as much on offense as he did).

CLIFFS: Today's GM's make a big mistake by surrounding guys like CP3 and Nash with too many bird-fed players, which gives these PG's license to control too much of the offense and be the focal point - this type of team where the playmaking responsibilities are undertaken mostly by the point guard can't win a championship.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Too bad the Clippers didn't get Pierce. He would be a great piece to close games instead of BG

[navy]

That's nice. Let me ask you this.

Which Point Guards have been on the same tier as the the players that have won titles since Magic?

Jordan
Hakeem
Shaq
Kobe
Lebron
Wade
Dirk
Duncan

You realize that one of these players has been in every finals for the past 25 years or so?

[Young X]

Those Pistons teams won because of their defense. They were the #1 ranked defense in the playoffs from '88-'90. Other than in '89 where they faced ridiculously weak competition, their offensive performance was mediocre.

[navy]

Those Pistons teams won because of their defense. They were the #1 ranked defense in the playoffs from '88-'90.
Chauncey Billups agrees.

[ImKobe]

You put a bunch of elite defenders and some god damn shooters around your scoring PGs and voila.

[Chadwin]

Warriors not winning a title this year then

book it

[oarabbus]

Jordan = bird fed offball player

[scm5]

That's nice. Let me ask you this.

Which Point Guards have been on the same tier as the the players that have won titles since Magic?

Jordan
Hakeem
Shaq
Kobe
Lebron
Wade
Dirk
Duncan

You realize that one of these players has been in every finals for the past 25 years or so?

All hate aside (hate the clips and cp3) I would have to say that CP3 is right up there with these players. He's been consistently great aside from some health issues.

This year is really the first year that I think another PG has a legit argument to being better than CP3 (Curry) which is pretty remarkable considering how many talented PG's there are in the league right now.

[navy]

All hate aside (hate the clips and cp3) I would have to say that CP3 is right up there with these players. He's been consistently great aside from some health issues.

This year is really the first year that I think another PG has a legit argument to being better than CP3 (Curry) which is pretty remarkable considering how many talented PG's there are in the league right now.
:biggums:

[3ball]

Jordan = bird fed offball player



:applause: .. Sure if you call this (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11064438&postcount=38) bird-fed:


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/cbaa451890b8e51a1e73d54f0a8e5bfd.gif

[3ball]

Along with the Pistons and Isiah, there have been two other championship teams where the point guard was a star player - 2004 Pistons with Billups, and the Spurs with Tony Parker.

Not surprisingly, those teams were ALSO built like Isiah's Pistons - with more playmakers (Ginobili, Kawhi, Diaw, Duncan) than bird-feeders.

The 2004 Pistons had also had more playmakers (Rip, Tyshaun Prince, Rasheed) than bird feeders (Ben Wallace) around their PG Chauncey Billups.

The only players that can win with more bird-feeders than playmakers are dominant NON-point guards such as MJ, Shaq, Dirk, Hakeem, etc.
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[stephanieg]

Yeah, it's funny when a PG makes a sick pass to a guy who can only shoot and then the defense recovers and the guy can't blow by the recovering player with a hard dribble or make any move of his own. The entire offense just dies.

[ninephive]

Along with the Pistons and Isiah, there have been two other championship teams where the point guard was a star player - 2004 Pistons with Billups, and the Spurs with Tony Parker.

Not surprisingly, those teams were ALSO built like Isiah's Pistons - with more playmakers (Ginobili, Kawhi, Diaw, Duncan) than bird-feeders.

The 2004 Pistons had also had more playmakers (Rip, Tyshaun Prince, Rasheed) than bird feeders (Ben Wallace) around their PG Chauncey Billups.

The only players that can win with more bird-feeders than playmakers are dominant NON-point guards such as MJ, Shaq, Dirk, Hakeem, etc.
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I think it's an almost-impossible task (to win a title with a PG as your best player). Almost all of them are very stoppable with a good defensive wing. The Spurs prove that theory every playoff run as they consistently limit those types of teams with guys like Bowen, Green, or Kawhi.

Miami even did it to Parker in 2013 with Lebron enough to pull it off in 7. Parker had just come off destroying the Grizzlies in the WCF (averaging 25/10/4/2 on 53% shooting) because they left Conley on him most of the series. Miami was smart enough to put Lebron on him, which limited him.

When you have a score-first PG like Parker or Billups, you have to keep the ball moving when they double and hedge your PG. Those teams by design are going to limit any one player's assist numbers (which is why Parker and Billups are sub-6 assist career players), but it opens up the court for easy buckets and did that for the Spurs to an even greater level in '14.

This is why guys like Rose, Lilliard, Curry, Westbrook, Irving, Harden, etc. haven't won a title. It's not that they're not talented enough to, but any one of those guys can be limited by a defensive wing...and if not...if they still get their 30/40, you better believe they're jacking up 25+ shots to do it.

[Prometheus]

You're contradicting the hell out of everything you ever said about LeBron in Miami. Cole, Chalmers, Wade, and LeBron all shared point guard duties. Those four and Bosh were call capable of making plays and creating shots for themselves and others. You even said it was better to have the point guard dominate the ball all game than to have four guys sharing that responsibility.

So you aren't going to make up your mind I guess? It will just be whatever you have to say at the moment to discredit anyone playing in the NBA today.

[3ball]

Those four and Bosh were call capable of making plays and creating shots for themselves and others.


You're misunderstanding - the point of the thread is that point guards need MORE playmaking teammates than bird-fed ones to win a championship - just like Isiah, Tony Parker, and Chauncey Billups - these are the only star PG's to win a championship and they all had more playmaking teammates than bird-fed ones.

Otoh, guys like CP3 and Nash have always had more bird-fed teammates than playmaking ones, so they are forced to undertake too much of the playmaking responsibility, which isn't a winning strategy for the team.. A point guard can't win by RUNNING the team, they can only win by fitting into the team, like Isiah, Chauncey, and Parker.

But this only applies to point guards - NON-point guards frequently win rings with more bird-fed guys than playmakers - see MJ, Shaq, Dirk, Hakeem, etc.. Due to their physical stature, these guys were simply capable of dominating far more than a point guard ever could and therefore could win with a bunch of bird-fed teammates (unlike point guards, who can't win with too many bird-fed teammates).





You even said it was better to have the point guard dominate the ball all game than to have four guys sharing that responsibility.


I never said that - that's the opposite of what I've always said.. have better reading comp
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[livinglegend]

You're misunderstanding - the point of the thread is that point guards need MORE playmaking teammates than bird-fed ones to win a championship - just like Isiah, Tony Parker, and Chauncey Billups - these are the only star PG's to win a championship and they all had more playmaking teammates than bird-fed ones.

Otoh, guys like CP3 and Nash have always had more bird-fed teammates than playmaking ones, so they are forced to undertake too much of the playmaking responsibility, which isn't a winning strategy for the team.

But this only applies to point guards - NON-point guards frequently win rings with more bird-fed guys than playmakers - see MJ, Shaq, Dirk, Hakeem, etc.. Due to their physical stature, these guys were simply capable of dominating far more than a point guard ever could.



I never said that - that's the opposite of what I've always said.. have better reading comp

It's easier said than done.
It's hard to find cheap players who are good shooters and who are also playmakers.
As far as Nash is concerned, I thought he had guys who could create for themselves: Joe Johson, Marion, Amare... They were not playmakers, but didn't necessarily need to be bird-feed.

[3ball]

Btw, it's a testament to a guy like Isiah, that he assimilated his game with his teammates so well..

In the playoffs, his WS/48 increased significantly, which showed that the way his team got better and matched the higher competition in the playoffs was by coalescing around their leader's game and getting more out of HIM..

Otoh, guys like Nash and CP3 are already making all the playmaking - their teams can't get better by having them dominate the ball and the decision-making more than they already were.. Not surprisingly, the WS/48 of these guys decreases significantly in the playoffs - that's what happens whan a point guard has too many bird-fed teammates and is forced to RUN his team, rather than fit into this team.
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