If the Skyhook is so effective, how come PF / Centers don't use it in the current era

[Imtheman]

Now imagine Anthony Davis or another player adding it to their game, I just don't understand why players dont try at least.

[kennethgriffin]

rule changes/ zones/ big man position is dead/ layups or threes are the only things teams go for now

[Nick Young]

It's really hard to learn. Kareem was doing that move since he was a little kid. Centers today don't even have basic post skills and footwork down. How can you expect them to know how to do a consistent sky hook?

[Prometheus]

I use the sky hook all the time on the black top. It's too bad i'm < 6' tall. If I were a 7-footer, I could be one of the GOAT centers. Dead serious.

[Imtheman]

It's really hard to learn. Kareem was doing that move since he was a little kid. Centers today don't even have basic post skills and footwork down. How can you expect them to know how to do a consistent sky hook?
Because, you'd think they would practice it from youth since its very effective.

If I were a dad, I'd be trying to teach my son that move from the get go

[navy]

Kareem had the length size and touch to be able to pull it off consistently.

[gts]

Because it's not cool...

Still an effective shot, would be deadly in the right hands but high school kids don't want to put in the time to build a proper foundation that will pay benefits 5 years down the line

it's not just the sky hook, it's a lot of basic basketball skills that are not being instituted young enough

[UK2K]

Because it's not cool...

Still an effective shot, would be deadly in the right hands but high school kids don't want to put in the time to build a proper foundation that will pay benefits 5 years down the line

it's not just the sky hook, it's a lot of basic basketball skills that are not being instituted young enough
Exactly. Its not cool.

If Hibbert practiced 2000 sky hooks a day over the summer, you're telling me he couldn't go into next season dropping buckets with it?

[tpols]

Exactly. Its not cool.

If Hibbert practiced 2000 sky hooks a day over the summer, you're telling me he couldn't go into next season dropping buckets with it?

I think people underestimate the fluidity and coordination necessary to pull it off. hibbert has difficulty getting free for a two footed hook shot.. now we're gonna see him glide grac3fully across the lane and take off on one foot.. Kareem sky hook looks like a ballerina pose or something.. it takes an extreme level of full body coordination flexibility etc that most 7 foot clunkers don't have.

[swagga]

Exactly. Its not cool.

If Hibbert practiced 2000 sky hooks a day over the summer, you're telling me he couldn't go into next season dropping buckets with it?

he'd have to improve his footwork to get position first .... and here lies the problem... it's very hard to isolate the low post these days and refs are rarely calling help D strips as fouls, that's why you either have the FASTER layup, the SAFER dunk or the kickout. sad but true .

[swagga]

I think people underestimate the fluidity and coordination necessary to pull it off. hibbert has difficulty getting free for a two footed hook shot.. now we're gonna see him glide grac3fully across the lane and take off on one foot.. Kareem sky hook looks like a ballerina pose or something.. it takes an extreme level of full body coordination flexibility etc that most 7 foot clunkers don't have.

:applause:

[ZenMaster]

I think people underestimate the fluidity and coordination necessary to pull it off. hibbert has difficulty getting free for a two footed hook shot.. now we're gonna see him glide grac3fully across the lane and take off on one foot.. Kareem sky hook looks like a ballerina pose or something.. it takes an extreme level of full body coordination flexibility etc that most 7 foot clunkers don't have.

Well said. The rhetoric on this one particular move is very interesting. One the one hand it's a move used a lot by the highest scoring player of all time, so it has to be an incredibly effective move. On the other hand though, it's a shot only used consistently buy one player ever, so obviously it's one of the hardest moves of all time to master effeciently.

[Asukal]

I think people underestimate the fluidity and coordination necessary to pull it off. hibbert has difficulty getting free for a two footed hook shot.. now we're gonna see him glide grac3fully across the lane and take off on one foot.. Kareem sky hook looks like a ballerina pose or something.. it takes an extreme level of full body coordination flexibility etc that most 7 foot clunkers don't have.

^:applause:

Not to mention the level of consistency needed to make it effective every game. Kareem was truly one of a kind. :applause:

[SHAQisGOAT]

It's really hard to learn. Kareem was doing that move since he was a little kid. Centers today don't even have basic post skills and footwork down. How can you expect them to know how to do a consistent sky hook?

^This... Talk about it being cool or not and so on, but that above is the bottom line.

Kareem had it down to a science, developed it with both hands, plenty of range on it, he was also 7'2 and very athletic, knew how to protect the ball and release it at the peak of his jump, off of his fingertips... One of the main reasons he's the all-time leading scorer.

[DonDadda59]

rule changes/ zones/ big man position is dead/ layups or threes are the only things teams go for now

Grizzlies.

It takes a lot of skill, coordination, and fluidity/finesse to use the skyhook effectively. Most bigs don't have those tools. I saw Pau pull a nice sky hook in game 2. He's one of the few who have the ability.

[ClipperRevival]

It's an incredibly tough shot to master. The shot goes against the logic of how you should shoot (squared up to the basket, balanced, both feet under you, use two hands to shoot and follow through with your momentum taking you towards the basket). The skyhook goes against all of this. You are not squared up, you don't have both feet under you, you aren't balanced, your momentum is not towards the basket and you don't use two hands to shoot. There is a reason why only one man mastered this shot. It takes an incredible amount of skill, touch and coordination to pull off as a big man.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I think people underestimate the fluidity and coordination necessary to pull it off. hibbert has difficulty getting free for a two footed hook shot.. now we're gonna see him glide grac3fully across the lane and take off on one foot.. Kareem sky hook looks like a ballerina pose or something.. it takes an extreme level of full body coordination flexibility etc that most 7 foot clunkers don't have.

:applause:

[oarabbus]

Gonna re-post my response from the last time this topic was made:



I don't buy this shit "it's too hard to learn they just can't learn it" that everyone's talking about. It's HARD for a non-shooter to develop a 3 point shot. It's HARD to shoot excellent free throws. Plenty of things in basketball are hard yet people learn them all the time.

These are professional athletes being paid often upwards of $10 million. If you can't learn a ****ing sky hook for 10 mil you wouldn't be in the league.

The real reason is that the sky hook is only a viable move for a mobile 7 footer. The sky hook is not unstoppable if you're 6'3" or 6'6" or even 6'8". It's only unstoppable if you are pushing 7' tall. And it's not very useful most of the time if you aren't mobile. Young Dirk could have certainly perfected a skyhook when he was younger, but he decided to focus on shooting and his Dirk shot is arguably just as unstoppable as the skyhook. Nothing "magical" about the skyhook, other than Kareem was incredibly mobile and fluid and so he perfected that shot. He couldn't shoot for shit like Dirk can, but he could skyhook like a mf. Hakeem had a solid hook shot however he had so many other go to moves (particularly the dream shake) that it wasn't necessary to only do a skyhook. Shaq had the power and the footwork.

There's nothing magical about the skyhook that makes it "more unstoppable" than a MDE Shaq in the paint or a Dirk fadeaway, they are all unstoppable in the hands of a skilled giant.

[DonDadda59]

There's nothing magical about the skyhook that makes it "more unstoppable" than a MDE Shaq in the paint

That's my favorite shot in basketball.

the MDE Shaq.

Hard as f*ck to master.

[oarabbus]

That's my favorite shot in basketball.

the MDE Shaq.

Hard as f*ck to master.


:lol hah yeah I worded that strangely, you know what I mean though.

The Skyhook is no better than the Dirk Fadeaway - they're both equally unstoppbale.

[Nick Young]

Because, you'd think they would practice it from youth since its very effective.

If I were a dad, I'd be trying to teach my son that move from the get go
If they aren't even practicing basic footwork and post skills, they aren't going to be practicing any sky hooks. All NBA centers have to do these days is set hard screens and jump high. Basic skills are dying out. It's sad.

[Nick Young]

Exactly. Its not cool.

If Hibbert practiced 2000 sky hooks a day over the summer, you're telling me he couldn't go into next season dropping buckets with it?
You don't seem to understand. Kareem was so good at it because he practiced it non-stop from like the age of 13. He needed it because he was a short kid playing against taller older guys and it was the only way he could get a shot off against them. Then he became huge-but still had the sky hook he'd been practicing since he was a kid.

It's not a shot you can just consistently develop after a year or two of practicing it. It would take years and years.

Apart from Kareem, who can you think of that had a decent consistent sky hook?

[DonDadda59]

:lol hah yeah I worded that strangely, you know what I mean though.

The Skyhook is no better than the Dirk Fadeaway - they're both equally unstoppbale.

I don't believe you. Show me stats.

[tpols]

Gonna re-post my response from the last time this topic was made:



I don't buy this shit "it's too hard to learn they just can't learn it" that everyone's talking about. It's HARD for a non-shooter to develop a 3 point shot. It's HARD to shoot excellent free throws. Plenty of things in basketball are hard yet people learn them all the time.

These are professional athletes being paid often upwards of $10 million. If you can't learn a ****ing sky hook for 10 mil you wouldn't be in the league.

The real reason is that the sky hook is only a viable move for a mobile 7 footer. The sky hook is not unstoppable if you're 6'3" or 6'6" or even 6'8". It's only unstoppable if you are pushing 7' tall. And it's not very useful most of the time if you aren't mobile. Young Dirk could have certainly perfected a skyhook when he was younger, but he decided to focus on shooting and his Dirk shot is arguably just as unstoppable as the skyhook. Nothing "magical" about the skyhook, other than Kareem was incredibly mobile and fluid and so he perfected that shot. He couldn't shoot for shit like Dirk can, but he could skyhook like a mf. Hakeem had a solid hook shot however he had so many other go to moves (particularly the dream shake) that it wasn't necessary to only do a skyhook. Shaq had the power and the footwork.

There's nothing magical about the skyhook that makes it "more unstoppable" than a MDE Shaq in the paint or a Dirk fadeaway, they are all unstoppable in the hands of a skilled giant.

Free throw shooting.. 3s.. all what you mentioned.. players very rarely improve much once there in the league. For every example of an improvemeet we see 10 guys who never improve. "muscle memory" *cough Derrick rose* is pretty much set in stone by the time you're a fully grown 20 something year old. You either have the movement and feel or you dont. Doesn't matter h9w much you're paid. It's like teaching a new language to a 5 year old vs a 30 year old. The 5 year old when grown will always have a better grasp because he wasore maleable when he learned.

[Nick Young]

Gonna re-post my response from the last time this topic was made:



I don't buy this shit "it's too hard to learn they just can't learn it" that everyone's talking about. It's HARD for a non-shooter to develop a 3 point shot. It's HARD to shoot excellent free throws. Plenty of things in basketball are hard yet people learn them all the time.

These are professional athletes being paid often upwards of $10 million. If you can't learn a ****ing sky hook for 10 mil you wouldn't be in the league.

The real reason is that the sky hook is only a viable move for a mobile 7 footer. The sky hook is not unstoppable if you're 6'3" or 6'6" or even 6'8". It's only unstoppable if you are pushing 7' tall. And it's not very useful most of the time if you aren't mobile. Young Dirk could have certainly perfected a skyhook when he was younger, but he decided to focus on shooting and his Dirk shot is arguably just as unstoppable as the skyhook. Nothing "magical" about the skyhook, other than Kareem was incredibly mobile and fluid and so he perfected that shot. He couldn't shoot for shit like Dirk can, but he could skyhook like a mf. Hakeem had a solid hook shot however he had so many other go to moves (particularly the dream shake) that it wasn't necessary to only do a skyhook. Shaq had the power and the footwork.

There's nothing magical about the skyhook that makes it "more unstoppable" than a MDE Shaq in the paint or a Dirk fadeaway, they are all unstoppable in the hands of a skilled giant.
:facepalm
Go out to a hoop and shoot some skyhooks and come back and tell me it isn't hard to learn. THERE'S A REASON ONLY ONE MAN IN NBA HISTORY COULD DO IT CONSISTENTLY. HE INVENTED THE SHOT AND PRACTICED IT DILIGENTLY WITH BOTH HANDS FROM THE AGE OF 10 TO THE DAY HE RETIRED 20 YEARS AFTER ENTERING THE LEAGUE.

If it was an easy shot to learn, more people would be shooting it as it's virtually an unblockable shot coming from a 7 footer.

From wiki:

According to Abdul-Jabbar, he learned the move in fifth grade after practicing with the Mikan Drill and soon learned to value it, as it was "the only shot I could use that didn't get smashed back in my face."[46]

Difference between MDE Shaq and Skyhook Kareem-Shaq had skill don't get me wrong but he combined that with freak of nature power and athleticism. He had amazing footwork and was a great passer too. No bigman will ever match prime Shaq. He was MDE but for how long? He didn't last long at the top. I'm a huge Shaq fan but his peak was short.

Kareem was an effective scorer in the league for his entire 20 year NBA career. No, he was never as dominant as Shaq but he was more consistent for a lot longer. A low impact shot like the sky hook would extend your career if you're a bigman by years! Yes more bigmen should learn it but that would require years of dedication and most centers are just happy jumping high and setting screens and scoring the occassional alleyoop and open court dunk.

[CakeorDeath]

Honestly, the C position these days just baffles me. Seems like a lot of those guys are blessed with incredible physical gifts and immeasurable potential as a result, but they never get better. For example, how the hell are guys like Dwight, DJ, and Hibbert still just great defenders that base their offense entirely on lobs and putbacks? If I were those guys, I'd be in the gym hours upon hours a day turning my face up game within 15 feet into money. Could you imagine what those guys would be if they had LaMarcus Aldridge's mid-range game?

[Genaro]

Honestly, the C position these days just baffles me. Seems like a lot of those guys are blessed with incredible physical gifts and immeasurable potential as a result, but they never get better. For example, how the hell are guys like Dwight, DJ, and Hibbert still just great defenders that base their offense entirely on lobs and putbacks? If I were those guys, I'd be in the gym hours upon hours a day turning my face up game within 15 feet into money. Could you imagine what those guys would be if they had LaMarcus Aldridge's mid-range game?
I think D12 worked a lot on his game and improved, he just wasn't that good off as people thought he could be.

[CavaliersFTW]

Well said. The rhetoric on this one particular move is very interesting. One the one hand it's a move used a lot by the highest scoring player of all time, so it has to be an incredibly effective move. On the other hand though, it's a shot only used consistently buy one player ever, so obviously it's one of the hardest moves of all time to master effeciently.
MANY players used it with incredible effectiveness, many of them HOFers not just one.

Neil Johnston, Cliff Hagan, Bob Lanier, Bill McGill, even Artis Gilmore to name but a few had a consistent hook shot that very much resembled and had similar mechanics to Kareem's sky hook and were all very difficult to defend due to the nature of the shot. A skyhook by the way, is just a derivative of the Mikan drill. It's the Mikan drill (a layup/hook, taken from a stationary position off a simple turn in pivot/foot). It's stupidly simple. But practiced and polished to the degree that it can be taken and made with consistency further out than just right next to the hoop.

This is different from running hooks and jump hooks occasionally taken by some wing players today that get labeled a "skyhook" for who knows why, the announcers just seem to call every hook a skyhook today. But anyways hook shots are actually more common today than people think. I see Kevin Love take hook shots all the time, for example. Montejunas or w/e from Houston is a good hook shooter. Dwight takes jump hooks though usually he's on the run and they look fairly ugly. Problem is, some of these guys are not 7 foot 2 freaks and can't always get as deep and stable a position necessary to deliver the shot with Kareem-like effectiveness, nor do they release from as high. Other guys, like Dwight, simply don't seem to look as fluid and practiced. You need to be a big 7 footer first, to create a career out of that shot in the mold of Kareem. Otherwise you won't get as many opportunities to take it (like Love, he just doesn't always get a chance to shoot it because he can't get in position as often). Then you need to practice the shit out of the Mikan drill - like, for a lifetime as was the case with Kareem and many of the other great Hook shooters. A hook shot, is nearly impossible to block face-up. Less a chance of getting blocked even than a fade-away shot, and it's got much less moving parts therefore should be able to be made with more consistency if practiced as much.

I present to you guys, Bill McGill one of the most polished hook shooters there ever was, even though he didn't make the same impact in the professional ranks as Kareem due to health problems and such.
https://youtu.be/vKSlB0y4HPM?t=14s

He was about 6 foot 9 (prob without shoes mind you, so "6-10" type of guy today). And Wilt couldn't block his hook. So that means IMO, in the hands of players down to about 6 foot 9, if they really worked at that shot it could still be quite a difficult to touch weapon. Just look at how simple and good that shot looks, just like a pure jump shot you can easily admire a pure looking hook shot.

[CavaliersFTW]

:lol hah yeah I worded that strangely, you know what I mean though.

The Skyhook is no better than the Dirk Fadeaway - they're both equally unstoppbale.
A Bill Russell type of player would say no, he'd say a fadeaway is easier to block than a hook shot. Though, to be fair a Bill Russell type of player is not in the league at the moment.

But the other thing that needs to be pointed out here, is by nature a fade-away shot is not a fundamentally sound shot, MJ even points this out in one of his old school shooting videos. It's a shot where you distance yourself from the basket mid-flight and it all just sort of goes against the grain of fundamentals (makes it more difficult to follow your shot, etc) and just has many moving parts as you're entire body is flying backwards when the shot is released. Dirk and many players practice/d the fadeaway and carve/d careers out of it, heck Wilt Chamberlain did as the most dominant volume scorer during his peak ever, and also one of the most efficient scorers at a time too.

But technically speaking, that skyhook is simpler, and more fundamentally sound on paper. In theory, in the hands of a tall player it SHOULD be more reliable, not just more difficult to block which is what some people get too fixated on. We're talking small percentages of a difference here, but by subtracting the number of moving parts in the shot in theory with equal practice this small different should mean any shooting coach should be teaching a hook shot to a blank slate student of the game vs a fade-away.

Kareem was freakishly tall since childhood. So he was being taught to play in the post and learned that the hook shot was working from him at a very early age. A lot of the guys that are big today, might not have been brought up the same way. We're in the like-mike era. The fade-away is what's in. It is a much more fun-to-take shot let's be real. Wilt hated the hook shot, said it was ugly. Took fade-aways. Then guys like Elvin Hayes came and kept taking them, then MJ, then Kobe/Dirk on down the line. The hook shot has fallen out of fashion but I honestly don't believe it's because it's less effective or more difficult either. But I also still don't necessarily believe shots like the fall-away are "just as good". I think, at least on paper or in theory, the hook shot still does make more sense to take/learn/practice than a fadeaway. Like I said even MJ himself has said it's not a fundamentally sound/simple shot to take. Where as the hook shot is.

[Dr.J4ever]

MANY players used it with incredible effectiveness, many of them HOFers not just one.

Neil Johnston, Cliff Hagan, Bob Lanier, Bill McGill, even Artis Gilmore to name but a few had a consistent hook shot that very much resembled and had similar mechanics to Kareem's sky hook and were all very difficult to defend due to the nature of the shot. A skyhook by the way, is just a derivative of the Mikan drill. It's the Mikan drill (a layup/hook, taken from a stationary position off a simple turn in pivot/foot). It's stupidly simple. But practiced and polished to the degree that it can be taken and made with consistency further out than just right next to the hoop.

This is different from running hooks and jump hooks occasionally taken by some wing players today that get labeled a "skyhook" for who knows why, the announcers just seem to call every hook a skyhook today. But anyways hook shots are actually more common today than people think. I see Kevin Love take hook shots all the time, for example. Montejunas or w/e from Houston is a good hook shooter. Dwight takes jump hooks though usually he's on the run and they look fairly ugly. Problem is, some of these guys are not 7 foot 2 freaks and can't always get as deep and stable a position necessary to deliver the shot with Kareem-like effectiveness, nor do they release from as high. Other guys, like Dwight, simply don't seem to look as fluid and practiced. You need to be a big 7 footer first, to create a career out of that shot in the mold of Kareem. Otherwise you won't get as many opportunities to take it (like Love, he just doesn't always get a chance to shoot it because he can't get in position as often). Then you need to practice the shit out of the Mikan drill - like, for a lifetime as was the case with Kareem and many of the other great Hook shooters. A hook shot, is nearly impossible to block face-up. Less a chance of getting blocked even than a fade-away shot, and it's got much less moving parts therefore should be able to be made with more consistency if practiced as much.

I present to you guys, Bill McGill one of the most polished hook shooters there ever was, even though he didn't make the same impact in the professional ranks as Kareem due to health problems and such.
https://youtu.be/vKSlB0y4HPM?t=14s

He was about 6 foot 9 (prob without shoes mind you, so "6-10" type of guy today). And Wilt couldn't block his hook. So that means IMO, in the hands of players down to about 6 foot 9, if they really worked at that shot it could still be quite a difficult to touch weapon. Just look at how simple and good that shot looks, just like a pure jump shot you can easily admire a pure looking hook shot.

This.

There are no Skyhooks shot today. It's not a jump hook. Even I could could shoot jump hooks on the post.

Kaj's legendary Skyhook was unique. It was released at the very peak of his outstretched hand, and it was released with a very high arc that made it impossible to block. 76er history is replete with nightmares due to that shot. Kaj's accuracy was stunning with that shot, and I suspect he was even more accurate with that shot in the early 80s than during the 70s.

Some have disagreed with me here. When I watched clips of a young Kareem during his athletic peak in the early 70s, he seemed to have more moves and relied on the Skyhook less. During the early 80s, it seemed like 80% of Kareem's post moves were with the Skyhook. Meaning he got better with the shot as he got older.

To the question as to why no one seems to be, at the very least, trying to emulate it, it's a difficult shot to master. It's a shame too because that shot would stand in any era against any defense.

[CavaliersFTW]

:facepalm
Go out to a hoop and shoot some skyhooks and come back and tell me it isn't hard to learn. THERE'S A REASON ONLY ONE MAN IN NBA HISTORY COULD DO IT CONSISTENTLY. HE INVENTED THE SHOT AND PRACTICED IT DILIGENTLY WITH BOTH HANDS FROM THE AGE OF 10 TO THE DAY HE RETIRED 20 YEARS AFTER ENTERING THE LEAGUE.

If it was an easy shot to learn, more people would be shooting it as it's virtually an unblockable shot coming from a 7 footer.

From wiki:


Difference between MDE Shaq and Skyhook Kareem-Shaq had skill don't get me wrong but he combined that with freak of nature power and athleticism. He had amazing footwork and was a great passer too. No bigman will ever match prime Shaq. He was MDE but for how long? He didn't last long at the top. I'm a huge Shaq fan but his peak was short.

Kareem was an effective scorer in the league for his entire 20 year NBA career. No, he was never as dominant as Shaq but he was more consistent for a lot longer. A low impact shot like the sky hook would extend your career if you're a bigman by years! Yes more bigmen should learn it but that would require years of dedication and most centers are just happy jumping high and setting screens and scoring the occassional alleyoop and open court dunk.
People were doing "Kareem's" skyhook during, and before when Kareem played though. You might be right about the points you're trying to make but I just want to point out he's def not the only player to have made a career out of shooting hooks like he shot them. He's just the most recently-retired player to have done it with such marked success. He didn't invent it, it was a very well established simple fundamental shot before he played the game - it's just a Mikan drill layup - practiced further and further out, it's really that simple and many players were doing it with success from the 50's through to the early to mid 1980's though the number of players coming into the league practicing that shot seemed to become gradually less and less until he was sort of the last prominent player to be making a career out of that shot.

[oarabbus]

:facepalm
Go out to a hoop and shoot some skyhooks and come back and tell me it isn't hard to learn. THERE'S A REASON ONLY ONE MAN IN NBA HISTORY COULD DO IT CONSISTENTLY. HE INVENTED THE SHOT AND PRACTICED IT DILIGENTLY WITH BOTH HANDS FROM THE AGE OF 10 TO THE DAY HE RETIRED 20 YEARS AFTER ENTERING THE LEAGUE.

If it was an easy shot to learn, more people would be shooting it as it's virtually an unblockable shot coming from a 7 footer.




To be quite honest my hook shot is a hell of a lot better than my fadeaway personally. I'm not tall enough to have it be unguardable but I can do jump, running, baby, sky hooks much, much better than I can shoot a fadeaway. Dream shakes aren't easy to do either, neither are floaters or runners. The average person could do a skyhook probably with more ease than they could replicate Hakeem or Kevin McHale (granted they wouldn't be 7' tall).

Y'all are talking about the skyhook like you need to get a PhD, jump into the hyperbolic time chamber with Goku, train for centuries, then learn how to summon a ****ing demon who can bestow the dark energy necessary to perform the skyhook. It's not like KAreem was the ONLY person to have ever done the skyhook effectively, you know this right?

No one does the Rick Barry granny free throw either. I suppose if it was an easy shot to learn, more people would be shooting it as it's virtually guaranteed >90% ft right?



Montejunas or w/e from Houston is a good hook shooter. Dwight takes jump hooks though usually he's on the run and they look fairly ugly. Problem is, some of these guys are not 7 foot 2 freaks and can't always get as deep and stable a position necessary to deliver the shot with Kareem-like effectiveness, nor do they release from as high. Other guys, like Dwight, simply don't seem to look as fluid and practiced. You need to be a big 7 footer first, to create a career out of that shot in the mold of Kareem. Otherwise you won't get as many opportunities to take it (like Love, he just doesn't always get a chance to shoot it because he can't get in position as often). Then you need to practice the shit out of the Mikan drill - like, for a lifetime as was the case with Kareem and many of the other great Hook shooters. A hook shot, is nearly impossible to block face-up. Less a chance of getting blocked even than a fade-away shot, and it's got much less moving parts therefore should be able to be made with more consistency if practiced as much.

Cavs, go back and read my post you had an issue with. I'm saying exactly this. I'm not sure exactly where we're disagreeing here.

edit: you disagreed about my assessment about skyhook vs. Dirk fadeaway. Fair enough. But anyway if you see what I wrote, this was my main point. There's no ancient lore you must study before becoming a monk and opening your 3rd eye in order to learn the Skyhook. As much as people try to act like basketball is a ****ing RPG on the playstation and the Skyhook is the ultimate ability to learn, it's just another move and for me personally is not as difficult to learn as post move footwork. It's simply only devastatingly effective if you are a 7 footer and MOBILE which very few people are. Gasol - not mobile enough. LeBron (not that he's good at it) not tall enough. There's nothing magical about this move.

[CavaliersFTW]

To be quite honest my hook shot is a hell of a lot better than my fadeaway personally. I'm not tall enough to have it be effective but I can do jump, running, baby hooks much better than I can shoot a fadeaway. Dream shakes aren't easy to do either. The average person could do a skyhook probably with more ease than they could replicate Kevin McHale (granted they wouldn't be 7' tall).

Y'all are talking about the skyhook like you need to get a PhD, jump into the hyperbolic time chamber with Goku, train for centuries, then learn how to summon a ****ing demon. It's not like KAreem was the ONLY person to have ever done the skyhook effectively.

No one does the Rick Barry granny free throw either. I suppose if it was an easy shot to learn, more people would be shooting it as it's virtually guaranteed >90% ft right?
I honestly think granny shot free throws and hook shots from the post aren't taken because kids just don't want to take them. Then they grow up, and it sort of becomes too late to try them.

It's how their grandpa's and great grandpa's shot. Heck, underhand free throws is called even worse, a "granny" shot. I think it's honestly that simple. As a kid, let's say brand new to the sport, vulnerable to shame and bullying, can you honestly imagine taking an underhand shot in front of your teammates, coach, and opponent? How about trying an old fashioned black and white era hook shot?

I mean, from the earliest of ages, they really are shots that are likely to get you mocked. A good player would know, take the highest percentage shot. But by the time your mind has matured to realize that, you've already had years of practicing normal free throws, and normal looking jump shots. It almost becomes too late to try and develop the muscle memory for underhand shots and hooks.

[oarabbus]

I honestly think granny shot free throws and hook shots from the post aren't taken because kids just don't want to take them. Then they grow up, and it sort of becomes too late to try them.

It's how their grandpa's and great grandpa's shot. Heck, underhand free throws is called even worse, a "granny" shot. I think it's honestly that simple. As a kid, let's say brand new to the sport, vulnerable to shame and bullying, can you honestly imagine taking an underhand shot in front of your teammates, coach, and opponent? How about trying an old fashioned black and white era hook shot?

I mean, from the earliest of ages, they really are shots that are likely to get you mocked. A good player would know, take the highest percentage shot. But by the time your mind has matured to realize that, you've already had years of practicing normal free throws, and normal looking jump shots. It almost becomes too late to try and develop the muscle memory for underhand shots and hooks.


I agree with the granny shot for sure. Looks dumb and lame as shit.

But I never understood why everyone mocks the skyhook if Kareem isn't doing it. Maybe not as much as a crossover but I always thought hooks in general looked cool :lol

Anyway, the skyhook being out of style is the biggest reason it isnt used today plus the physical requirements to have a dominant one. Only a few players use the bank shot and it too is extremely effective, but out of style.

[Dr.J4ever]

This.

There are no Skyhooks shot today. It's not a jump hook. Even I could could shoot jump hooks on the post.

Kaj's legendary Skyhook was unique. It was released at the very peak of his outstretched hand, and it was released with a very high arc that made it impossible to block. 76er history is replete with nightmares due to that shot. Kaj's accuracy was stunning with that shot, and I suspect he was even more accurate with that shot in the early 80s than during the 70s.

Some have disagreed with me here. When I watched clips of a young Kareem during his athletic peak in the early 70s, he seemed to have more moves and relied on the Skyhook less. During the early 80s, it seemed like 80% of Kareem's post moves were with the Skyhook. Meaning he got better with the shot as he got older.

To the question as to why no one seems to be, at the very least, trying to emulate it, it's a difficult shot to master. It's a shame too because that shot would stand in any era against any defense.

The difference between a jump hook and a skyhook was the arc.

[CavaliersFTW]

To be quite honest my hook shot is a hell of a lot better than my fadeaway personally. I'm not tall enough to have it be unguardable but I can do jump, running, baby, sky hooks much, much better than I can shoot a fadeaway. Dream shakes aren't easy to do either. The average person could do a skyhook probably with more ease than they could replicate Hakeem or Kevin McHale (granted they wouldn't be 7' tall).

Y'all are talking about the skyhook like you need to get a PhD, jump into the hyperbolic time chamber with Goku, train for centuries, then learn how to summon a ****ing demon who can bestow the dark energy necessary to perform the skyhook. It's not like KAreem was the ONLY person to have ever done the skyhook effectively, you know this right?

No one does the Rick Barry granny free throw either. I suppose if it was an easy shot to learn, more people would be shooting it as it's virtually guaranteed >90% ft right?




Cavs, go back and read my post you had an issue with. I'm saying exactly this. I'm not sure exactly where we're disagreeing here.

edit: you disagreed about my assessment about skyhook vs. Dirk fadeaway. Fair enough. But anyway if you see what I wrote, this was my main point. There's no ancient lore you must stuy before becoming a monk and opening your 3rd eye in order to learn the Skyhook as much as people try to act like basketball is a ****ing RPG on the playstation and the Skyhook is the ultimate ability to learn. It's simply only devastatingly effective if you are a 7 footer and MOBILE which very few people are. Gasol - not mobile enough. LeBron (not that he's good at it) not tall enough. There's nothing magical about this move.
I agree that there's nothing mystic about it.

I'm not even positive you need to be super coordinated though. I think it could just be as simple as practice practice practice just like free throws. I think a guy like Gasol could shoot a great skyhook or hook shot but I'm not sure he practices it like Kareem did I don't think hardly any player in the game at the moment does. Gasol looks no less coordinated to me, than say, Neil Johnston or George Mikan and they made a career out of hooks:

Neil Johnston, running hook:
https://youtu.be/xrSvm7vx8uk?t=27s

Mikan, out of the pivot:
https://youtu.be/xrSvm7vx8uk?t=41s

Also as far as height I saw you mentioned height, and I did too but I think even if a player doesn't sort of make a career out of shooting hooks, a hook can be deadly in the hands of any player of any height trying to not get blocked by a guy in front of them. It's basically like shooting a high floater - just a solid tool if practiced to shoot over someone bigger than you.

Check cousy's left handed running hook here (I've seen a guard take this shot this season too and it was replayed as a highlight, the announcers erroneously called it a "skyhook" though - this is a running hook):
https://youtu.be/Tj8q6c0zGhw?t=36s

Magic shot hooks too, he was 6-7 and 1/2 without shoes.

Cliff Hagan, made a career shooting a gorgeous hook he was about 6-4 without shoes I think. Here Bob Pettit feeds him a shot.
https://youtu.be/EFTY-6sk3iA?t=10m28s

You probably have to be careful with matchups though and accustomed to shooting with your back to the basket, of course, it's a shot if taken from the pivot you generally take when you can confidently "post up" against your matchup (usually if you have a strength advantage of some sort). But it could be effective in the hands of anyone, the bigger your bag of tricks the better I'd think. This is how Kevin Love uses the hook, it's just one of his go to types of shots.

You could be right about the coordination thing it just might not be a shot for everyone. Maybe a fluidity and elevation thing, I'm not sure, I will say for example Bob Pettit came into the NBA taking hook shots, and he said Bill Russell caught his hook (not mentioned if it was face-up or a weak-side block) and that he retired it from the NBA from there on out. He then made a career out of jump shots. That was his choice. Maybe he telegraphed his hooks, maybe there is such a thing as a slow uncoordinated looking hook that the defense can read, so maybe you're right maybe you have to have a bit of elevation and coordination or just really understand your matchups or something to really pull it off. This is Bob Pettit's hook btw, that he claims did not work for him (though his shorter teammate Cliff Hagan still used his to great effectiveness until he retired in 1965)
https://youtu.be/EFTY-6sk3iA?t=3m17s

[julizaver]

Shaq's father forced him to shot hundred sky hooks a day, but after that the big boy abondened the shot as not bein cool (sky hook was not part of hip hop basketball culture). However in one of his All-Star appearances he made a sky hook to honor KAJ, who was sitting in the stands.

Skyhook is effective weapon for 7 footers who had good coordination and had practiced the shot at young age. I doubt that someone at 20 or even 18 could developed effective hook shot (let's called it effective if you shoot around 0.500) if he start from zero. The hook shot should come natural with the hand movement and that's why it was so gracefull at the hands of KAJ. With his 7ft 2' light but athletic frame he could avoid the power contact with stronger guys in the post. Skyhook is not the type of shot for a player like Shaq, it is better to use his 340-350 body to forced his way to the basket and wear his opponents down.

[Nick Young]

People were doing "Kareem's" skyhook during, and before when Kareem played though. You might be right about the points you're trying to make but I just want to point out he's def not the only player to have made a career out of shooting hooks like he shot them. He's just the most recently-retired player to have done it with such marked success. He didn't invent it, it was a very well established simple fundamental shot before he played the game - it's just a Mikan drill layup - practiced further and further out, it's really that simple and many players were doing it with success from the 50's through to the early to mid 1980's though the number of players coming into the league practicing that shot seemed to become gradually less and less until he was sort of the last prominent player to be making a career out of that shot.
Kareem did it the most consistently and effectively. Others busted it out as part of their repertoire, for KAJ it was his bread and butter. Sky hook and jump hook are different. Loads of big men today like the Gasols and Cousins have a decent hook shot going. Shaq had a great hook shot. Hakeem did too. Sky hook is different.

[jstern]

Shaq has talked about it. Basically said that he does a baby hook because the regular one doesn't look cool. Something to that effect.

[Nick Young]

I honestly think granny shot free throws and hook shots from the post aren't taken because kids just don't want to take them. Then they grow up, and it sort of becomes too late to try them.

It's how their grandpa's and great grandpa's shot. Heck, underhand free throws is called even worse, a "granny" shot. I think it's honestly that simple. As a kid, let's say brand new to the sport, vulnerable to shame and bullying, can you honestly imagine taking an underhand shot in front of your teammates, coach, and opponent? How about trying an old fashioned black and white era hook shot?

I mean, from the earliest of ages, they really are shots that are likely to get you mocked. A good player would know, take the highest percentage shot. But by the time your mind has matured to realize that, you've already had years of practicing normal free throws, and normal looking jump shots. It almost becomes too late to try and develop the muscle memory for underhand shots and hooks.
Hook shots aren't mocked and I don't think they look uncool. I used to play semi-competitively up until the age of 13 and we were always taught hook shots by coaches. Lots of players still shoot hook shots, it's Pau Gasol's go-to move. Sky hook is not a normal basic hook shot.
https://38.media.tumblr.com/ad9e54f921b48e1249a2f644f2eda199/tumblr_ndbc59HxmR1sdydefo1_400.gif
http://media.giphy.com/media/vTUqXBbRhVRSM/giphy.gif
You can hit that shot consistently while guarded by a decent defender, oarabbus?

[iznogood]

A jump hook is simply a better shot in most of the situations.

First of all, it has 2 counter moves and sky hook has none. Second of all, the player is shooting of two feet and, more stable and absorbs the contact better.

There are situations where a sky hook would be more appropriate, for example when a player is driving to the middle from the wing for a dunk or a layup, doesn't get in front of his man or doesn't have time/place for a jump stop.

A good player should master and use both. I agree with the posters who stated it's simply a thing of practice.

[SHAQisGOAT]

The Skyhook is no better than the Dirk Fadeaway - they're both equally unstoppbale.

Just no...
Not saying Dirk's fader (been done by plenty of players way before him though) isn't a major weapon, one of the best "moves" you'll see, brought him plenty of success too... but no, the skyhook(Kareem's) is the greatest go-to/scoring move in basketball history.

Hakeem's dream-shake (done before him too) or Dirk's fadeaway, for example, are not as effective and don't allow for the same type of longevity.

Yea, Kareem was a terrific athlete who always took care of his body very well, and went into his older playing years without any major injury but one of the biggest reasons for his GOAT longevity is the skyhook.
He was even better at it as he got older, using it more and more as he couldn't do the same type of "things" he could in his younger years.

There's a reason why Jabbar was still dropping 23 PPG on 56% FG at 38 years old; why he could still kill players like Hakeem, Eaton, Ewing or Sampson in the low-block at an advanced age; why he could still pull GOAT Finals series in his late 30's... Ofc he was much more than just the skyhook, even at that stage, but that move is one of the main reasons for that, more in those years...
Now show me Dirk being able to do similar things off of his fadeaways, or Hakeem with the shake and whanot. Not even at their peaks I would choose them over peak Kareem in terms of scoring, and even then the skyhook was Jabbar's main weapon (again, even him being much more than that, not only scoring-wise).

And don't give me none of that about playing with Magic, for those Lakers and such. Yes, everyone would benefit a lot from playing with a great PG like Johnson or a great team like the showtime Lakers but most of Kareem's points came in half-court, post-up situations, especially at that point; even Magic or Riley said that when the showtime-type offense wasn't working, they'd just slow it down and drop it to Kareem down-low.

And no, it's not easy to master, at least in Kareem's "fashion"... There's a reason why only he did it quite like that, with that impact and success at that rate.
Also gotta realize that he practiced it and used it constantly since he was a child. Obviously, it helps a ton that he was 7'2, a great athlete, very talented with great work ethic.
Dude like Magic already had a sweet hook before he got into the league, and Kareem then taugh the nuances/technique of his skyhook, and even being a 6'8 PG, Magic could never do it like Kareem or with the same type of success, call it.

[That_Admiral]

:applause: great post

[SpanishACB]

A Bill Russell type of player would say no, he'd say a fadeaway is easier to block than a hook shot. Though, to be fair a Bill Russell type of player is not in the league at the moment.



Dirk's fade can't be blocked though, he jumps on one leg and puts the other all the way up creating space

when was he ever blocked doing his shot?

[blablabla]

Dirks shooting coach said that he and dirk have been working on the skyhook for years and ge still isn't confident enough to use it. Thats how difficult it is

[senelcoolidge]

Most of the big men that come into the league are raw. They lack footwork and a post game. Instead of coming into the league mature, they are coming in with little to no game and learning as pros. Just the regular hook shot is very effective as a big man. Kind of sad that you don't even see that in today's game. It's all dunks or being a stretch big man now.

[Psileas]

Dirk's fade can't be blocked though, he jumps on one leg and puts the other all the way up creating space

when was he ever blocked doing his shot?

I don't know how many times Dirk or Kareem have been blocked performing their go to moves, but I'll say, due to the degree of difficulty, it's easier to make a player struggle from the field by shooting fade-aways than sky-hooks. As it has been mentioned, a fade-away isn't nearly as natural and as efficient a shot and shouldn't be any normally guarded player's #1 option. When guarded, the shooter's hand has more free room to operate when he performs the hook, which is why I'd rather have Dirk shoot guarded fade-aways on me than Kareem shoot guarded sky-hooks.



You could be right about the coordination thing it just might not be a shot for everyone. Maybe a fluidity and elevation thing, I'm not sure, I will say for example Bob Pettit came into the NBA taking hook shots, and he said Bill Russell caught his hook (not mentioned if it was face-up or a weak-side block) and that he retired it from the NBA from there on out. He then made a career out of jump shots. That was his choice. Maybe he telegraphed his hooks, maybe there is such a thing as a slow uncoordinated looking hook that the defense can read, so maybe you're right maybe you have to have a bit of elevation and coordination or just really understand your matchups or something to really pull it off. This is Bob Pettit's hook btw, that he claims did not work for him (though his shorter teammate Cliff Hagan still used his to great effectiveness until he retired in 1965)

I've heard Russell was also the reason Neil Johnston faded into obscurity, although I think it has more to do with injuries rather than a single player, who, skills-wise alone, was miles ahead of everyone else defensively - it's not as if, when Russell began doing his thing, players all of a sudden figured Johnston out and rendered him obsolete.

[julizaver]

Dirk's fade can't be blocked though, he jumps on one leg and puts the other all the way up creating space

when was he ever blocked doing his shot?

First of all - every star player got blocked, even when doing their thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2dEsxT6uog

Anyway Dirk's shot is almost ublockable - to blocked it you shall have it all: the anticipation, timing and athletism as the case in the video above.

But it is a Power Forward move, while the hook is more suitable for true bigs. I don't know if someone has researched, but the best jump shooters in the game shoot their jumpers with 0.400 efficeincy or closed to - and with some easy baskets layups and dunks their percentage goes to the 0.500 mark.

[jongib369]

he'd have to improve his footwork to get position first .... and here lies the problem... it's very hard to isolate the low post these days and refs are rarely calling help D strips as fouls, that's why you either have the FASTER layup, the SAFER dunk or the kickout. sad but true .

Then why have I seen someone like Al Jefferson almost Isolate freely? Against some of the leagues best defenses? By the time help came he had already made his move or passed out. If one of these boys practiced it, they'd bee able to read the D and know when they can put one up. Or, pass it out.

[jongib369]

Shaq's father forced him to shot hundred sky hooks a day, but after that the big boy abondened the shot as not bein cool (sky hook was not part of hip hop basketball culture). However in one of his All-Star appearances he made a sky hook to honor KAJ, who was sitting in the stands.

Skyhook is effective weapon for 7 footers who had good coordination and had practiced the shot at young age. I doubt that someone at 20 or even 18 could developed effective hook shot (let's called it effective if you shoot around 0.500) if he start from zero. The hook shot should come natural with the hand movement and that's why it was so gracefull at the hands of KAJ. With his 7ft 2' light but athletic frame he could avoid the power contact with stronger guys in the post. Skyhook is not the type of shot for a player like Shaq, it is better to use his 340-350 body to forced his way to the basket and wear his opponents down.
I'd like to see that

[jstern]

I've tried, and tried to learn Kareem's hook shot, but it's just too hard. I do a lot of fade aways, and sometimes it clicks in so natural and perfectly, and I can't get a similar feeling for the hook.

Anway, 3ball should do a thread about how the Jordan fade away is the most unstoppable move in NBA history. Just for the gifs.

[Nick Young]

Dirks shooting coach said that he and dirk have been working on the skyhook for years and ge still isn't confident enough to use it. Thats how difficult it is
Yep. If Dirk can't do it after years of practice with one of the best shooting coaches in the world, you can't expect the uncoordinated Dwight Howards of the world to be able to pull it off.

Kareem was only so good at it because he was practicing it religiously since he was 10. It is a very high degree of difficulty shot, as easy as KAJ makes it look.

I'm only 6 feet tall but my game involves lots of hook shots. Hooks are relatively easy shots to hit. The skyhook is a completely different story! It is not a regular basic hook shot. It involves a quick spin and jump where you're going away from the basket! It is not a natural shot to take. Hitting it wideopen is one thing. Hitting it consistently with a hand in your face and a guy trying to force you off the block is another.

[jongib369]

Yep. If Dirk can't do it after years of practice with one of the best shooting coaches in the world, you can't expect the uncoordinated Dwight Howards of the world to be able to pull it off.

Kareem was only so good at it because he was practicing it religiously since he was 10. It is a very high degree of difficulty shot, as easy as KAJ makes it look.

I'm only 6 feet tall but my game involves lots of hook shots. Hooks are relatively easy shots to hit. The skyhook is a completely different story! It is not a regular basic hook shot. It involves a quick spin and jump where you're going away from the basket! It is not a natural shot to take. Hitting it wideopen is one thing. Hitting it consistently with a hand in your face and a guy trying to force you off the block is another.
Honestly, I think they were being sarcastic. They were laughing about it

[iznogood]

Yep. If Dirk can't do it after years of practice with one of the best shooting coaches in the world, you can't expect the uncoordinated Dwight Howards of the world to be able to pull it off.

I'm only 6 feet tall but my game involves lots of hook shots. Hooks are relatively easy shots to hit. The skyhook is a completely different story! It is not a regular basic hook shot. It involves a quick spin and jump where you're going away from the basket! It is not a natural shot to take. Hitting it wideopen is one thing. Hitting it consistently with a hand in your face and a guy trying to force you off the block is another

So are you saying that all the players who did it back in the days were more coordinated?

The fact that Dirk doesn't take that shot despite all the practice doesn't mean it's too difficult for him to learn or to perform it consistently. It just means he's not comfortable enough with it to rely on it in game time situation, which is pretty understandable for somebody like Dirk who started out as a perimeter player.

Also, where did you get that definition of skyhook from? This is the first time I heard it necessarily involves a spin as well.

[choppermagic]

The skyhook was devastating because it was used by someone who (1) was extremely coordinated, balanced, mentally tough (didnt rush things), strong, agile, and of course, 7'2" with long arms. It took him years to master it and he could launch it from different spots and with both hands. Unstoppable.

Other players dont all have this combination of skills and mind set as well as the dedication it takes to master it. It's too bad because even a decent center can make good use of the shot, if not to the tune of 38k points.

edit- i would also like to add that yes, the league is favored to perimeter players right now, but if a big man phenom came into the league, i think the NBA would shift back in order to capitalize on what's popular. If a 21 year old Shaq came around, the NBA would be stupid not to open up the big man game again for the sake of ratings.

[Nick Young]

If young Shaq was around now he'd be putting up 40/20 a game at 60% shooting.

[Derka]

People who don't think its cool...I don't get that.

A well-executed skyhook is a thing of pure beauty and the fact that so few players can effectively master it, to me, is a sign of how special and devastating a move it is. Everything about how big men play in the post has changed since those days, though.