Lebron's style LOOKS more like a PG, but everything else says MJ was better passer

[3ball]

1. Stats


Considering Lebron's bread and butter is a predictable drive-and-kick, it's not surprising that his basic repertoire and style achieves lower assist averages in the playoffs (when the competition moves up to the higher level).


PLAYOFF AVERAGES THRU 30 YRS OLD:

Jordan: 35 PPG / 7 APG / 50% FG
Lebron: 28 PPG / 6 APG / 48% FG


FINALS AVERAGES THRU 30 YRS OLD:

Jordan: 36 PPG / 8 APG / 50% FG
Lebron: 24 PPG / 6 APG / 46% FG

Source: basketball-reference.com



2. Role on Team


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/8ff2fe647c23fed5cb0e19f034d75277.gif

As the aforementioned stats show, Jordan carried 25% more scoring burden in the playoffs and 50% more in the Finals - it's a testament to his superior skill that he still averages more assists and less turnovers than Lebron.. That should end the argument right there.. But there's more.

Lebron and Harden are the only wings in the league that dominate the ball more than point guards, even the ones on their own team.. This season, Lebron happens to be splitting PG duties with Kyrie - but normally, Lebron is always his team's point guard, like when he played with Chalmers and Mo Williams.. Even though Lebron has played point guard his entire career, he's never averaged anywhere near the 11 assists, or the all-round numbers MJ averaged the one time (http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games) he got to play point guard.

Jordan's stats at point guard over the 24 games (31/9/11/51 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-346-sum:pgl_basic)) were so ridiculous and so much better than Lebron has ever done, that they can't be explained away by statistical variance - those stats simply prove Jordan was the better passing point guard.. And we already know he was the better off-ball passer, which are passes made without using a point-guard-style, live dribble (shown in GIF above).

Of course, most people have a shallow view of the game, and in their mind, they only think of good passing coming from someone with a live-dribble, like a point guard.. This is the main reason Lebron's passing gets overrated.. But this is simple delusions - his assist averages are FAR from elite for a ball-dominator - elite would be guys like Magic, Nash, CP3, Isiah, Stockton, etc., who literally average twice the assists of Lebron.



3. Spacing Era

Passing is easier in this era because spacing creates wider lanes for easier passing.. Additionally, the NBA changed the rules with the specific intent of making passing easier - the NBA officially stated (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html) they opened up the lane with defensive 3 seconds and made drive-and-kicks more frequent with the penetration-easing hand-check ban.

A cursory glance at old footage shows that previous eras had far smaller passing and driving lanes lanes.. It's easy to see how much closer proximity defenders used to be - the lack of spacing in previous eras forced players to thread needles (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=355658&page=44) much more than today's game.. Less spacing makes for tougher passing.. That's common knowledge.
.

[BigNBAfan]

http://matthewlpowers.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/tldr.jpg

[ralph_i_el]

MJ wasn't even good

[ImKobe]

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/cd/cd0b72eee4bad1780c96e445719e8b1a7b25542aa665b53b71 ff4e6438119dfd.jpg

[pauk]

Why go after just Lebron, i mean with that logic why not go ahead and say he possessed better passing ability than say Magic aswell including everybody else who were better than Jordan at that... or excuse me not better... nobody could have possibly been better than Jordan at anything.... especially that damned Lebron, argh, hate that guy!

Why not create a thread where you explain how he is a better rebounder than Rodman aswell or something.... You are creative, think of something...

Is it to much? I dont think so... you already said Jordan is as good of a shooter as Reggie Miller, Ray Allen and such so i mean you might aswell step your game up....

[ImKobe]

Why go after just Lebron, i mean with that logic why not go ahead and say he possessed better passing ability than say Magic aswell including everybody else who were better than Jordan at that... or excuse me not better... nobody could have possibly been better than Jordan at anything.... especially that damned Lebron, argh, hate that guy!

Why not create a thread where you explain how he is a better rebounder than Rodman aswell or something.... You are creative, think of something...

Is it to much? I dont think so... you already said Jordan is as good of a shooter as Reggie Miller, Ray Allen and such so i mean you might aswell step your game up....

Jordan is also the GOAT shot blocker

[Trollsmasher]

A single gif:roll:

You slippin' fvckboi:lol

[navy]

You never stop huh? :roll:

[plowking]

MJ wasn't even good

This.

[Kvnzhangyay]

when you have to spend so much time making a stupid argument over and over again its generally wrong.

obviously true things don't need to be argued

[Prometheus]

3. Spacing Era

Passing is easier in this era because spacing creates wider lanes for easier passing.. Additionally, the NBA changed the rules with the specific intent of making passing easier - the NBA officially stated (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html) they opened up the lane with defensive 3 seconds and made drive-and-kicks more frequent with the penetration-easing hand-check ban.

A cursory glance at old footage shows that previous eras had far smaller passing and driving lanes lanes.. It's easy to see how much closer proximity defenders used to be - the lack of spacing in previous eras forced players to thread needles (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=355658&page=44) much more than today's game.. Less spacing makes for tougher passing.. That's common knowledge.
.

This conjecture is not supported by the stats: http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ast_per_g_top_10.html, which show that the league-leaders in assists were averaging higher APG in the '80s and '90s than they do today. This could be rationalized in a number of ways, but there's no need to analyze it. The numbers simply prove that you're wrong.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Lebron is the best passing small forward in NBA History.

http://i.imgur.com/EcrY5dt.gif

http://www.chinapost.com.tw/news_images/20110219/p09d.jpg

[L.A.Showtime]

Of course MJ was better. 3ball with another "duh" thread. He puts more work into obvious threads than anybody.

[L.A.Showtime]

Lebron is the best passing small forward in NBA History.

:oldlol:

[Lebron23]

http://i.imgur.com/EcrY5dt.gif

http://www.chinapost.com.tw/news_images/20110219/p09d.jpg


http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/12377693/lebron-james-6136th-career-assist-breaks-scottie-pippen-record

[IMObjective]

Why go after just Lebron, i mean with that logic why not go ahead and say he possessed better passing ability than say Magic aswell including everybody else who were better than Jordan at that... or excuse me not better... nobody could have possibly been better than Jordan at anything.... especially that damned Lebron, argh, hate that guy!

Why not create a thread where you explain how he is a better rebounder than Rodman aswell or something.... You are creative, think of something...

Is it to much? I dont think so... you already said Jordan is as good of a shooter as Reggie Miller, Ray Allen and such so i mean you might aswell step your game up....:oldlol:

3ball will run out of steam at some point.

[L.A.Showtime]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/12377693/lebron-james-6136th-career-assist-breaks-scottie-pippen-record

Most does not equal best.

[SHAQisGOAT]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/12377693/lebron-james-6136th-career-assist-breaks-scottie-pippen-record

Posting a ESPN link to prove a point :oldlol: Typical ignorant-kid type of shit :rolleyes:

Guess Kobe's also a better scorer than Jordan, Dr J better than Shaq, Ray-Ray better than Dantley, Parish better than Bird... I can also go by points/assists per game :rolleyes:

Oh, J-Kidd and Mark Jackson are also better passers than Magic :rolleyes:

[IGOTGAME]

This guy is nuts

[j3lademaster]

Why go after just Lebron, i mean with that logic why not go ahead and say he possessed better passing ability than say Magic aswell including everybody else who were better than Jordan at that... or excuse me not better... nobody could have possibly been better than Jordan at anything.... especially that damned Lebron, argh, hate that guy!

Why not create a thread where you explain how he is a better rebounder than Rodman aswell or something.... You are creative, think of something...

Is it to much? I dont think so... you already said Jordan is as good of a shooter as Reggie Miller, Ray Allen and such so i mean you might aswell step your game up....
Chill, it's not like he's said anything to offend your real favorite player: Reggie Miller.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

http://i.imgur.com/x5HPYOd.gif

[3ball]

This could be rationalized in a number of ways, but there's no need to analyze it. The numbers simply prove that you're wrong.


of course it can be rationalized - previous eras played at a faster pace, so assist averages will be higher - it's simple math.. :hammerhead:

also, spacing makes passing easier... period... everyone knows this - why are you always the one screaming that the sky isn't blue?...the last time you did this, we had to statistically prove the obvious - that lebron was a big ball-dominator - and now you're trying to say spacing doesn't make passing easier.. :facepalm
.

[3ball]

.
All Games of MJ vs. Michael Cooper, both 30+ MPG


.........................Date............MP....... ...FG%....REB....AST......PTS

Michael Jordan... 11/28/86... 45:00:00.......0.44.......10........3.........41
Michael Cooper.. 11/28/86... 32:00:00.......0.50........3.........4.........11

Michael Jordan... 12/20/88.. 39:00:00.......0.48........7.........8.........42
Michael Cooper.. 12/20/88.. 30:00:00.......0.50........4.........4..........9

Michael Jordan.... 3/21/89... 41:00:00.......0.35........8........16........21
Michael Cooper... 3/21/89... 31:00:00.......0.67........4.........8..........9

Michael Jordan... 12/19/89.. 44:00:00.......0.52........7.........5.........37
Michael Cooper.. 12/19/89... 33:00:00.......0.22........4.........3.........5


MJ's Averages: 35.1 PPG, 8.0 RPG, 8.0 APG, 45.2% FG

Source: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=coopemi01


Footage of MJ vs. Cooper:

OFF-BALL (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11297486&postcount=42)

ISOLATIONS (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11296029&postcount=30)



MJ's career averages vs. other DPOY wing defenders (source data is linked):

MJ vs. DPOY Sidney Moncrief (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=moncrsi01): 31.6 PPG
MJ vs. DPOY Michael Cooper (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=376404): 35.1 PPG
MJ vs. DPOY Alvin Robertson (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=roberal01): 34.7 PPG
MJ vs. DPOY Gary Payton (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=paytoga01): 30.5 PPG
MJ vs. DPOY Dennis Rodman/Joe Dumars (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=rodmade01): 31.8 PPG
.

[Giaodollo]

Jordan's stats at point guard over the 24 games (http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games) were so ridiculous and so much better than Lebron has ever done, that they can't be explained away by statistical variance - those stats simply prove Jordan was the better passing point guard.. And we already know he was the better off-ball passer, which are passes made without using a point-guard-style, live dribble (shown in the OP GIF and the 4th and 7th GIFs above).

Of course, most people have a shallow view of the game, and in their mind, they only think of good passing coming from someone with a live-dribble, like a point guard.. This is the main reason Lebron's passing gets overrated.. But this is simple delusions - his assist averages are FAR from elite for a ball-dominator - elite would be guys like Magic, Nash, CP3, Isiah, Stockton, etc., who literally average twice the assists of Lebron.
.

In the 11 game span he averaged a triple double they went 5-6. Just stat padding and not really helping the team.

[LoneyROY7]

No Spacing = tougher passes.. Narrow passing lanes DON'T EXIST today:


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/e48e528e6f5da9f4b54960dbfa8d21a4.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/997e68d100d24b92598a94f50c954455.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/51d9024d465f70980f24451de018c34f.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/5cd52fa99d892bb31f13e772321cd63b.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/f02caba60e318b698d5474d64e9675a2.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/e24921482979a20026858045a7502746.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/23853678fb5e0af755c3f831665324ee.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b9095ba50b0642a08044673286544dc1.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/cc9f5bd27abe1cedf21d5f3133957e62.gif


Jordan's stats at point guard over the 24 games (http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games) were so ridiculous and so much better than Lebron has ever done, that they can't be explained away by statistical variance - those stats simply prove Jordan was the better passing point guard.. And we already know he was the better off-ball passer, which are passes made without using a point-guard-style, live dribble (shown in the OP GIF and the 4th and 7th GIFs above).

Of course, most people have a shallow view of the game, and in their mind, they only think of good passing coming from someone with a live-dribble, like a point guard.. This is the main reason Lebron's passing gets overrated.. But this is simple delusions - his assist averages are FAR from elite for a ball-dominator - elite would be guys like Magic, Nash, CP3, Isiah, Stockton, etc., who literally average twice the assists of Lebron.
.

Oh, you mean the 24 games where he was blatantly stat-padding and having a score-keeper repeatedly update him on his numbers throughout the game?

[Heavincent]

And we already know he was the better off-ball passer


Hold up, this is an actual term that you use? :roll: I thought people were just joking.

[oarabbus]

Why go after just Lebron, i mean with that logic why not go ahead and say he possessed better passing ability than say Magic aswell including everybody else who were better than Jordan at that... or excuse me not better... nobody could have possibly been better than Jordan at anything.... especially that damned Lebron, argh, hate that guy!

Why not create a thread where you explain how he is a better rebounder than Rodman aswell or something.... You are creative, think of something...

Is it to much? I dont think so... you already said Jordan is as good of a shooter as Reggie Miller, Ray Allen and such so i mean you might aswell step your game up....



Come on son. Jordan was a FAR better offball rebounder than Rodman, and a superior left-side-of-the-ball passer to Magic. Doesn't even need to be said

[3ball]

In the 11 game span he averaged a triple double they went 5-6. Just stat padding and not really helping the team.


Over the 24-game stint at point-guard, MJ averaged 31.4 PPG, 9.4 RPG, 10.6 APG, 50.5% FG..

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-346-sum:pgl_basic

Lebron has never come anywhere NEAR these numbers over any 24 game stretch of his career, even in the regular season (lebron's wheelhouse).

The bulls were barely over .500 for this 24-game stretch, but this shouldn't be a surprise - the ball-domination, point-guard style for wing players is a suboptimal way to play.. That's why Jordan didn't play like that normally - he only pinch-hit at PG for that one stretch because the regular PG was hurt.

But normally, he'd never employ a ball-dominating approach, because that approach doesn't win as much.

[jongib369]

Unrelated, care to give your thoughts about this within that thread?

Would still love to see you breakdown the rules/hand checking etc from the 60s/70s

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373174

*edit, forgot to give the link...Whoops :lol

[Rose'sACL]

Over the 24-game stint at point-guard, MJ averaged 31.4 PPG, 9.4 RPG, 10.6 APG..

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-346-sum:pgl_basic

Lebron has never come anywhere NEAR these numbers over any 24 game stretch of his career, even in the regular season (lebron's wheelhouse).

The bulls were barely over .500 for this 24-game stretch, but this shouldn't be a surprise - the ball-domination, point-guard style for wing players is a suboptimal way to play.. That's why Jordan didn't play like that normally - he only pinch-hit at PG for that one stretch because the regular PG was hurt.

But normally, he'd never employ a ball-dominating approach, because that approach doesn't win as much.
magic dominated plenty and went to more finals than jordan did while winning only 1 less ring.
it is true that magic had a loaded team but he won against more talented teams than what jordan faced in the finals.
jordan had to wait for pippen to become a star and for pistons, lakers and celtics to be past their prime to start winning.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Excuses

Empty stats. :confusedshrug:

[Prometheus]

You literally just answered your own question. The pace was higher during Jordan's era, which inflated players' assist totals as well as their scoring. That right there nullifies your statistical evidence.

Less spacing means defenders are packed in tighter, yes. It also means that passes are made over shorter distances (requiring less velocity on the ball) and that teammates are clustered nearer to one another (requiring less peripheral vision). Jordan was very good at feeding the post and hitting cutters, but he didn't regularly make the cross-court passes and kick-outs that LeBron makes, which are arguably more difficult.

But that's just a quick example of how to rationalize. The fact is, assist totals were inflated in the '80s and '90s vs. today, which is all that matters for the sake of this argument.

And let me just remind you for the hundredth time, I am a huge Jordan fan, and think he is > LeBron by a wide margin. That doesn't mean he was better at everything, and he wasn't a better passer.

[ArbitraryWater]

Come on son. Jordan was a FAR better offball rebounder than Rodman, and a superior left-side-of-the-ball passer to Magic. Doesn't even need to be said

MJ's off-ball passing was majestic.

[Big Cheese]

MJ's off-ball passing was majestic.

Dont forget his off-ball ball handling :bowdown:

[OldSchoolBBall]

You literally just answered your own question. The pace was higher during Jordan's era, which inflated players' assist totals as well as their scoring. That right there nullifies your statistical evidence.


You might want to check your facts. The Bulls played at a negligibly higher pace during the years in question ('89-'93). Something like 92-96 pace versus Lebron's typical 90-93 pace.

[3ball]

Less spacing means defenders are packed in tighter, yes... but MJ didn't regularly make the cross-court passes and kick-outs that LeBron makes, which are arguably more difficult.


Yes he did - ALL players make cross-court (skip) passes - that's nothing.. You just don't have a good grasp of what constitutes a difficult basketball play.

They teach you to make skip passes in junior high.. It's a simple drill.. Literally.. Otoh, there are no drills for threading needles in traffic.. Recipients of skip passes are always open for longer than players who are in congested traffic - you can eyeball a skip-pass recipient forever before making the pass.

And with spacing, recipients of all passes are easier to see.. But most importantly, all passes are simply easier TO MAKE with wider passing lanes - wider passing lanes are a bigger factor than anything else.
.

[oarabbus]

Yes he did - ALL players make cross-court (skip) passes - that's nothing.. You just don't have a good grasp of what constitutes a difficult basketball play.

They teach you to make skip passes in junior high.. It's a simple drill.. Literally.. Otoh, there are no drills for threading needles in traffic.. Recipients of skip passes are always open for longer than players who are in congested traffic - you can eyeball the recipient forever before making the pass.

With spacing, recipients of ALL passes are easier to see.. But most importantly, all passes are easier to make with wider passing lanes - wider passing lanes are a bigger factor than anything else.


That's what Jordan's wife said too :oldlol:

[bizil]

When it comes to perimeter players who are freak athletes, great scorers, great passers, and great defenders in one, this is my Mt. Rushmore:

MJ
Bron
Kobe
Wade

These guys can dominate in all facets BUT they do it different ways. Of this bunch, I think Bron is the best passer. And ITS BECAUSE of his mentality. He looks to pass first WHILE also dominating scoring in the flow of the game. MJ looked to SCORE FIRST while also being a great passer himself. So even though the assist numbers are similar, Bron's MENTALITY is the difference. If they played in the same backcourt, THERE IS NO QUESTION who the PG would be. So when it comes to passing, give me Bron over MJ.

[sdot_thadon]

Hold up, this is an actual term that you use? :roll: I thought people were just joking.
You think it's a game lol. MJ's game is so out there he needed to invent new terms just to describe his game. I'm curious what do you guys think of his off ball dribbling?

[Prometheus]

You might want to check your facts. The Bulls played at a negligibly higher pace during the years in question ('89-'93). Something like 92-96 pace versus Lebron's typical 90-93 pace.

Actually that was 3ball's explanation. Now we may want to press for another reason as to why players were averaging higher APG back then, since apparently it wasn't about pace...

[LA_Showtime]

Of course MJ was better. 3ball with another "duh" thread. He puts more work into obvious threads than anybody.

Nice screen name. :lol

[Prime_Shaq]

Why go after just Lebron, i mean with that logic why not go ahead and say he possessed better passing ability than say Magic aswell including everybody else who were better than Jordan at that... or excuse me not better... nobody could have possibly been better than Jordan at anything.... especially that damned Lebron, argh, hate that guy!

Why not create a thread where you explain how he is a better rebounder than Rodman aswell or something.... You are creative, think of something...

Is it to much? I dont think so... you already said Jordan is as good of a shooter as Reggie Miller, Ray Allen and such so i mean you might aswell step your game up....
Dude don't give him ideas

[3ball]

Actually that was 3ball's explanation. Now we may want to press for another reason as to why players were averaging higher APG back then, since apparently it wasn't about pace...
no, that's why they were higher.. because of pace.

oldschoolbball just pointed out that the Bulls happened to play at the league's slowest pace every year, so the pace Jordan himself played wasn't any slower than today.. but the league as a whole still played at a faster pace, hence the higher assists.

but in addition to pace, previous eras played a superior brand of basketball - they weren't just setting up for a 3-pointer every play - they sought a much wider range of shot-types, which diversified the play much more.. they're view wasn't restricted by 3-pointers, so the play was much more instinctive.. this superior brand of play breeded superior passers.
.

[pauk]

Factually, Lebron is a better passer whether your criteria is passing skills or assist averages.... its really that simple 3ball...

It doesnt mean Jordan couldnt one season average the same or even more assists.... nor does it mean Jordan had much worse passing skills or something...

It just means Lebron was more consistent, piled up more assists... and it means he displayed better/more passing skills (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT-zhe-5ORA)....

Jordan wasnt better than everybody at everything.... you have to accept that.

[3ball]

It doesnt mean Jordan couldnt one season average the same or even more assists....


It's not just one season - it's for lebron's entire career thus far - MJ averages more assists in both the playoffs and Finals thru age 30.

Also, the smaller passing lanes of no-spacing environments required greater passing skill than today's wide open spacing.. This is another reason today's passers are overrated - and not only does the spacing make passing easier, but the NBA changed the rules specifically to enhance ball movement, including drive-and-kicks.





It doesnt mean Jordan couldnt one season average the same or even more assists....


Also, Jordan's stats at point guard over the 24 games (31/9/11/51 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-346-sum:pgl_basic)) were so ridiculous and so much better than Lebron has ever done, that they can't be explained away by statistical variance - those stats simply prove Jordan was the better passing point guard.. And we already know he was the better off-ball passer, which are passes made without using a point-guard-style, live dribble (shown in the OP GIF).

Of course, most people have a shallow view of the game, and in their mind, they only think of good passing coming from someone with a live-dribble, like a point guard.. This is the main reason Lebron's passing gets overrated.. But this is simple delusions - his assist averages are FAR from elite for a ball-dominator - elite would be guys like Magic, Nash, CP3, Isiah, Stockton, etc., who literally average twice the assists of Lebron.
.

[3ball]

.
Today's spacing makes wider passing lanes for easier passing - even role players can do it:


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/c3dedaa1d9722a642b505590a694fef3.gif



Otoh, the smaller passing lanes associated with no-spacing creates a harder passing target and requires greater passing skill:


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/5cd52fa99d892bb31f13e772321cd63b.gif

[3ball]

If MJ and Lebron played in the same backcourt, there is no question who the PG would be (Lebron).


Of course Lebron would be the PG, because the PG is the LEAST IMPORTANT POSITION - the PG is like the waiter or secretary that dribbles the ball until the important stuff happens (i.e. the ball is given to MJ).

The above is not a joke - I'm serious - that's the nature of the PG position.. Other than Magic (who averaged 15 APG in playoffs), point guards are never the focal point of championship teams.. And a PG that only averages 6-7 APG alongside MJ is not a PG, they're Secretary Pippen.
.

[Achilleas]

better off ball passer

[3ball]

I think Bron is the best passer. And ITS BECAUSE of his mentality. He looks to pass first WHILE also dominating the scoring


Your post says exactly what I said - Lebron employs a point-guard style and is trying to pass-first - this gives him an advantage in racking up assists - yet he still averages less assists than Jordan, who is just going with the flow and doing whatever is necessary to win.

For Jordan, "whatever it took to win" meant more scoring AND more assists than Lebron.. Look at the stats in the OP - Jordan averaged MORE assists than Lebron, while NOT employing a style that seeks to pass-first.




He looks to pass first WHILE also dominating the scoring


Yet Lebron scores less AND gets less assists.. so your argument doesn't make any sense.

Also, the smaller passing lanes of no-spacing environments required greater passing skill than today's wide open spacing.. This is another reason today's passers are overrated - and not only does the spacing make passing easier, but the NBA changed the rules specifically to enhance ball movement, including drive-and-kicks.
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[dreamwarrior]

Of course MJ was a better passer, because he passed the ball more often. He didn't just pass more per game and per 48/36 but also passed the ball more per possession, so it had nothing to do with pace. The guy was simply a more willing passer than Lebron ever has been. I'm sure if Lebron passed more often he'd have more assists but they don't pay him to pass the ball. You guys make fun of 2 for 5 but I'm sure when all is said and done he'll at least go 3 for 7.

[HurricaneKid]

Your post says exactly what I said - Lebron employs a point-guard style and is trying to pass-first - this gives him an advantage in racking up assists - yet he still averages less assists than Jordan, who is just going with the flow and doing whatever is necessary to win.

For Jordan, "whatever it took to win" meant more scoring AND more assists than Lebron.. Look at the stats in the OP - Jordan averaged MORE assists than Lebron, while NOT employing a style that seeks to pass-first.


Yet Lebron scores less AND gets less assists.. so your argument doesn't make any sense.

Also, the smaller passing lanes of no-spacing environments required greater passing skill than today's wide open spacing.. This is another reason today's passers are overrated - and not only does the spacing make passing easier, but the NBA changed the rules specifically to enhance ball movement, including drive-and-kicks.

The ball was ALWAYS in the hands of the best offensive threat because the defense was blocked from defending them. MJ, Nique, even guys like Alex English, etc had usage rates far higher than ANYONE sees now.

Using higher usage to prove passing ability is comically stupid. But then we have come to expect that from you. The game was FAR more systematic back then as defenses all but had to announce their intention to double and the remaining defenders were limited in their options to support the double.

Even if MJ was a better passer (he wasn't), he was aided by a rule book that systematically provided directives to who was going to be open and where. Giving defenses carte blanche to do what they want makes passing far more difficult now than it was in MJs day.

[3ball]

MJ, Nique, even guys like Alex English, etc had usage rates far higher than ANYONE sees now.


Did you even look up the stats before posting?.. You literally just made that up.

Dominique (career 30% usage) and alex english (26%) had LOWER usage rates than today's players (i.e. Lebron, Kobe, Wade, whoever..)

The only guy who had the highest usage was MJ - and this year, Westbrook's usage is equally high, only his FG % is a full 10 percentage points lower (43% to 53%), and his ORtg is 15 points lower (108 to 123).

[3ball]

When the typical casual fan thinks about what a good pass is, they always think of it coming from someone who is using an live dribble, like a point guard.. This is why ball-dominators like Lebron are overrated passers - they use the style most conducive to pass, but this advantage is not built into people's assessement of passers.





Today's defenses have carte blanche and aren't restricted


Today's defenders are incredibly restricted, especially inside the 16 x 19 foot painted area.

Specifically, the NBA banned zone inside the paint with the defensive 3 seconds rule - defenders can't stand in the paint with no other offensive players around (they can't zone).. Instead, the defensive 3 seconds rule requires defenders to stand right next to their man (within armslength (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html)) at all times while inside the paint.

With paint-camping banned, bigs are forced to come out of the paint to flood and shade in the ballhandler's wheelhouse - the perimeter.. Defending guards on the perimeter is a massive disadvantage for bigs, but today's spacing and ban on paint-camping necessitate it - otoh, in previous eras, there was no spacing and paint-camping was legal, so bigs didn't need to come out of the paint to shade on the perimeter, although they still did in many situations, such as screen-roll (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=358589&page=8).

To summarize, today's paint-camping ban along with spacing creates a greater need for flooding and shading than previous eras.. Although these partial zones executed outside the paint by slow bigs are easy to beat for perimeter ballhandlers, they provide a bandaid to offset today's spacing, paint-camping ban, and hand-check ban, so defensive effectiveness doesn't fall off a cliff in comparison to previous eras.

It makes sense that the NBA wouldn't ever take everything away from the defense (hand-check ban, physicality ban, paint-camping ban) without giving them something back (zones outside the paint) - the balanced regulatory approach coupled with constant strategic adjustments on both sides of the ball is the reason why league-wide ORtg has remained between 106-108 for the last 30 years (except from 1998-2004).
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[24-Inch_Chrome]

Stop deleting and re-posting crap to bump your threads. That exact post was here 5 minutes ago before you felt the need to delete and re-post it.

[3ball]

Stop deleting and re-posting crap to bump your threads. That exact post was here 5 minutes ago before you felt the need to delete and re-post it.
Relax - i had re-edit it..

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Relax - i had re-edit it..

1) You can edit without re-posting.

2) I might believe you if you didn't constantly delete and re-post to bump your own threads.

[dubeta]

Jordans heavy ball-dominance combined with the fast-pace of the 80's make it easy to see why he got a lot of assists.

[3ball]

Jordans heavy ball-dominance combined with the fast-pace of the 80's make it easy to see why he got a lot of assists.
A common misconception...

Jordan's Bulls were always the slowest-paced team in the league - his Bulls played between a 92-96 pace for his 1st three-peat, which is the same as today's 94 pace.

And for MJ's 2nd three-peat, the entire league's pace was 90-92, or SLOWER than today's 94 pace.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Actually that was 3ball's explanation. Now we may want to press for another reason as to why players were averaging higher APG back then, since apparently it wasn't about pace...

No, don't get it twisted: LEAGUE pace was higher, but the Bulls' pace specifically was not. Also, when you say "players were averaging more apg," I assume you mean mostly PG's, and the answer to that is that, well, there were far more pass-first PG's back then than now (most PG's are scoring PG's nowadays).

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordans heavy ball-dominance combined with the fast-pace of the 80's make it easy to see why he got a lot of assists.

Except that Jordan was FAR less ball dominant than Lebron (had the ball in his hands far less in terms of clock time), and his teams played at a comparable or only negligibly higher pace than Lebron's teams have. Try again.