How can Kareem be 2nd GOAT when he's not even the consensus best center?

[Derivative]

I am so confused about why most rankings list him as number 2 all time, when he's not even the consensus best center of all time.

In terms of dominance, Kareem played in a very weak era during his prime, and he was never as dominant as Shaq. Kareem never had a season with PER over 30, while Shaq had 3 seasons with over 30 PER. There's only 1 player I would take over a peak Shaq, and that's MJ, not KAJ.

In terms of winning, Bill Russell >>>> Kareem. Also Kareem never won much before he was teamed up with Magic. Kareem only had 1 ring before teaming up with the greatest point guard of all time on one of the GOAT teams ever.

So I don't get why Kareem is always ranked so high. Longevity =/= greatness.

[iamgine]

6 MVPs + 6 Championships + 9x all defensive team + 1 unstoppable move.

Plus eye test.

[Nowitness]

6 MVPs + 6 Championships + 9x all defensive team + 1 unstoppable move.

Plus eye test.

And a little bit of Magic.

He's not in my top 10. Walton slayed that Islamist every time they locked horns.

[Marchesk]

Kareem did have a 34.8/16.6/4.6 season. He also had 17 straight 20+ seasons. Shaq never led the league in blocked shots or rebounding. Also never had more than 3.8 assists, but Kareem had a 5 assist season. Kareem also averaged more steals.

Kareem's first six seasons:

30.4/15.3/4.3 with 1.2 steals* and 3.4 blocks*

Playoffs:

30.5/16.9/4 with 1.4 steals* and 2.9 blocks*

*blocks and steals only recorded for fifth and sixth seasons

[Nowitness]

Kareem did have a 34.8/16.6/4.6 season. He also had 17 straight 20+ seasons. Shaq never led the league in blocked shots or rebounding. Also never had more than 3.8 assists, but Kareem had a 5 assist season. Kareem also averaged more steals.

Kareem's first six seasons:

30.4/15.3/4.3 with 1.2 steals and 3.4 blocks

Playoffs:

30.5/16.9/4 with 1.4 steals and 2.9 blocks

Blocks/Steals weren't recorded for his first four seasons.

You stay lying.

[Marchesk]

Blocks/Steals weren't recorded for his first four seasons.

You stay lying.

I averaged out the last two seasons for those stats. I'll make a note.

[Prime_Shaq]

He is the best center

[julizaver]

I am so confused about why most rankings list him as number 2 all time, when he's not even the consensus best center of all time.

In terms of dominance, Kareem played in a very weak era during his prime, and he was never as dominant as Shaq. Kareem never had a season with PER over 30, while Shaq had 3 seasons with over 30 PER. There's only 1 player I would take over a peak Shaq, and that's MJ, not KAJ.

In terms of winning, Bill Russell >>>> Kareem. Also Kareem never won much before he was teamed up with Magic. Kareem only had 1 ring before teaming up with the greatest point guard of all time on one of the GOAT teams ever.

So I don't get why Kareem is always ranked so high. Longevity =/= greatness.

Who says that Kareem is the 2nd GOAT ? And behind who is a good question also?

What I could tell for sure is Kareem > Shaq (not by miles of course) in longevity and primes, Kareem definitely TOP 5 ALL-TIME.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

He's not in my top 10.

:biggums:

[SHAQisGOAT]

Shaq's my favorite center but Kareem's the GOAT center (even if by peak, Shaq gets that edge over him and Wilt). Russell won more but wasn't as good of a player, Chamberlain could go toe-to-toe as far as peaks but he didn't win as much and didn't have that type of longevity.

Weak era? :rolleyes: Speaking of direct competition, he went against the likes of Wilt, Walton, Reed, Moses, Hakeem, Cowens, Lanier, Ewing, Unseld..... Faced some terrific teams too.

Dude was still winning FMVP, having one of the GOAT Finals at age 38, in the most competitive/stacked era.

Never won much before Magic? Get your facts straight. Look at what he did in 1977 for example, check out that supporting cast please. Regardless, he was already a champ and FMVP, even MVP, way before Magic.

He's one of the best scorers ever, great defender and rebounder at his best, one of the best passing centers, very high IQ, extremely tall and very athletic, had the best scoring weapon in his arsenal...

6 rings, 6x MVP, 2x FMVP, would've gotten at least a couple DPOY if it was given out already, 10x all-nba 1st, 11x all-defensive, 19x all-star, 2x scoring champ, 4x blocks leader, leding rebounder once, ROY, all-time leading scorer...

He was THAT dominant.

He has the talent, the amazing peak play, the terrific dominance, the stats, the individual and collective accolades, one of the best longevity-wise... And you're here talking about PER and shit? :facepalm

[theaussieguy]

because its possible to be better than a player yet worse at a certain position. For example, westbrook is a 'better' player than a lot of PG's, but as far as his proficiency as a PG goes,he is worse than CP3/curry/rondo etc because he plays like a shooting guard and will selfishly chuck his team out of a game, something a true PG just doesn't do. Assuming thunder have durant, he is a net negative when u consider they could get a far less expensive PG who actually plays like a PG while spending the left over money to improve other positions while utilizing a once in a generation player like Durant with proper team flow. Its the problem with some players, they are so good u have to pay them a lot, but in doing so only detracts from ur teams overall potential because they just dont play the position properly.

[ImKobe]

GOAT longetivity
6 time champ
6 time MVP
slayed Wilt when they played eachother
skyhook
winning FMVP over prime Magic at 38 years of age

dude averaged 22 ppg on 60% shooting with over 2 blocks a game for an entire season and then followed it up with a 22 ppg championship run in the Playoffs and averaging 26 ppg on 60% shooting in the Finals vs a prime McHale & Parish front court.

[Nowitness]

GOAT longetivity
6 time champ
6 time MVP
slayed Wilt when they played eachother
skyhook
winning FMVP over prime Magic at 38 years of age

dude averaged 22 ppg on 60% shooting with over 2 blocks a game for an entire season and then followed it up with a 22 ppg championship run in the Playoffs and averaging 26 ppg on 60% shooting in the Finals vs a prime McHale & Parish front court.

Tim Duncan
Bill has 5 more
Weak era
Walton slayed Alcindor
6'5 White guys
4 Rebounds Per Game in the final v Detroit

[Spurs5Rings2014]

westbrook is a 'better' player than a lot of PG's, but as far as his proficiency as a PG goes,he is worse than CP3/curry/rondo etc

:biggums:

[LAZERUSS]

Tim Duncan
Bill has 5 more
Weak era
Walton slayed Alcindor
6'5 White guys
4 Rebounds Per Game in the final v Detroit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coHMKlx7Was&playnext=1&videos=YqP06ya0k4w

Yep...sure looks like Walton is "slaying" Kareem doesn't it?

And for the record, Kareem averaged 30 ppg on a .607 FG% in that series...all while being doubled and tripled in every game.

[Im Still Ballin]

...

[Im Still Ballin]

He dropped like 50 or something on Hakeem when he was 38 or something

Proves those high scoring seasons are legit, and his talent transcends eras

I guess you could use that logic to prove Wilt was also legit and he transcends eras...

And Hakeem beat Shaq in the finals and Shaq outmatched Dwight

The transcending of centers throughtout the eras of NBA

[MiseryCityTexas]

There needs to be more footage of him when he was in his 20s to show people how much of a beast he was.

[julizaver]

Shaq's my favorite center but Kareem's the GOAT center ([B]even if by peak, Shaq gets that edge over him and Wilt). Russell won more but wasn't as good of a player, Chamberlain could go toe-to-toe as far as peaks but he didn't win as much and didn't have that type of longevity.

In terms of peak I think Wilt had the edge over Shaq and Kareem. The fact that he did not win in his first seven years could be explained with the inferior cast, or for the same reason Kareem didn't won much in the '70s (as you mentioned below in your post), where he was in his prime years.

About Wilt's longevity - in 1973 he was still one of the best players in the league, far from washed up player. His last season comparing to Kareem's at the same age is:

Wilt 43 mpg, 13.2 ppg (on 0.727 shooting, 0.520 FT), 18.6 rpg, 4.5 apg, 5.6 blocks per game.

Kareem 32.8 mpg, 21.5 ppg (on 0.578 shooting, 0.723 FT), 7.3 rpg, 2.6 apg, 1.8 bpg

Granted in terms of numbers Kareem's next two season were slightly better - so we could asume that Kareem maintaned elite level of play until he turned 39. But could Wilt played elite for two more seasons - for me the answer is yes, although we would never know because Lakers blocked him from playing in ABA. And there were rumors that Kareem prolonged his career due to financial problems (although Kareem claimed recently that in 1989 he returned back his money)


Weak era? :rolleyes: Speaking of direct competition, he went against the likes of Wilt, Walton, Reed, Moses, Hakeem, Cowens, Lanier, Ewing, Unseld..... Faced some terrific teams too.

Nate Thurmond.
You can add also Hayes, Bellamy, McAdoo, Gilmore, Parish and others. In fact during his long career Kareem met almost all of the greatest centers, who ever played the game and that's why we could use him as a bridge over eras.




Never won much before Magic? Get your facts straight. Look at what he did in 1977 for example, check out that supporting cast please. Regardless, he was already a champ and FMVP, even MVP, way before Magic.


The same could be applied for Wilt in the 60s.


He's one of the best scorers ever, great defender and rebounder at his best, one of the best passing centers, very high IQ, extremely tall and very athletic, had the best scoring weapon in his arsenal...


He was good rebounder in his prime, but not on Russell or Chamberlain's level, in fact as he get older (after 1981) he could hardly be considered rebounder. The same with the defending - he was capable defender but not on the Russell, Thurmond, Chamberlains level,as his bread and butter was his offensive game.
I am not arguing that he had the complete package, and probably that is his strongest argument. He could do it all in his prime in terms of capability, no question about it. And thats why I would choose prime Kareem over Shaq. Skyhook was not his only weapon in his younger days, as he was very quick and versatile in offense. He made his points on dunks, lay ups, tap ins, right hook, left hook sometimes, mid range jump shots ...

[Psileas]

How can Kareem be 2nd GOAT when he's not even the consensus best center?

1) Who said Kareem is widely considered top-2 GOAT? People have short memories and extremely limited research will/skill. I wouldn't be surprised if Kobe is the 2nd most popular choice for GOAT.

2) The 1st GOAT, whoever that would be, shouldn't be the "consensus best center", either, if he was one. 3 out of my 4 GOATs are centers and I don't really separate someone from the other 3. Each of these guys has certain qualities that the rest of his antagonists can't match.

3) Your list of "arguments" against Kareem (era, centers, Walton, etc) is pathetic.

[julizaver]

Tim Duncan
Bill has 5 more
Weak era
Walton slayed Alcindor
6'5 White guys
4 Rebounds Per Game in the final v Detroit

Tim Dunkan is a second tier player comparing to Kareem.
Bill Russell has 5 more rings, but it doesn't mean that he was individually the better player. Yes we could argue about it, but even R. Horry had more rings than Kareem.
Walton never ever slayed Alcindor (you can go on youtube and watch full games of their H2H).
Kareem played in the Golden era of centers.
6'5 White guys - see above.
Kareem at 42 was washed up - but who wasn't at that age.

[LAZERUSS]

Kareem is a Top-5 player, but the reality was, ...

Aside from FT shooting, Chamberlain was a better scorer, better rebounder, better passer, better defender, better shot-blocker, and a more efficient shooter from the field (and please don't give career FG%'s, either, when KAJ significantly raised his in the defenseless 80's.)

Furthermore, for those that use rings against Wilt...explain this to me...

A prime Kareem, in his first ten seasons, went to exactly two Finals, and won one ring. He also played on one team that had far greater talent and was blown out in the first round, and on another team that went 60-22 and was beaten in the first round by a 47-35 team (the same 47-35 team that Wilt's 60-22 Lakers slaughtered in the next round.) Furthermore, in the mid-70's, he played on two more teams that didn't even make the playoffs.

AND, in their four years in the league together...while Wilt and KAJ each won one ring, Chamberlain held a 3-1 Finals advantage, and overall, had more team success.

What happened in KAJ's last 10 seasons? MAGIC arrived. How much of a difference was that? Hell, in Kareem's last great season, 79-80, he watched the clinching game six of the Finals from his couch, while Magic posted a 42-15-7 game in leading the Lakers to a rout of the Sixers on the road.

From '81 on it was MAGIC's teams that were winning four more rings. By the '87 season, Kareem picked up his fifth ring as a "third-wheel", and in '88 he was gifted his sixth ring with a poor playoff run, an awful Finals, and a horrific game seven.

Meanwhile, Wilt not only won two rings, in his 11 other playoff seasons, his teams' would lose to the eventual champion, ten times. Five of those were in game seven's, and four of those were by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points. His teams were losing to the greatest dynasty in NBA history seven times; the HOF-laden Knicks twice, and the 66-16 '71 Bucks (and Wilt didn't have either West nor Baylor in that series.) AND, his teams also routed the eight-time defending (and 60-21) Celtics en route to one title, and the defending champion (and 63-19) Bucks in another title run.

And while the bashers bring up Wilt's post-season "decline", they will never acknowledge that Kareem had a huge "decline" in Wilt's '72, and '73 seasons. Or that when Kareem faced two of the three greatest defensive centers in NBA history, his post-season numbers fell off the cliff.

Nor will the Kareem-fans bring up the beatings that he took at the hands of Moses Malone, who managed to beat a far-more talented Kareem roster in one playoff run, and then crushed Kareem and his Lakers with an equal roster in another. Oh, and in their overall 40 career H2H's, some of which were still in KAJ's prime, Moses OWNED Kareem.

I'm sorry, but those are the facts.

[LAZERUSS]

He dropped like 50 or something on Hakeem when he was 38 or something

Proves those high scoring seasons are legit, and his talent transcends eras

I guess you could use that logic to prove Wilt was also legit and he transcends eras...

And Hakeem beat Shaq in the finals and Shaq outmatched Dwight

The transcending of centers throughtout the eras of NBA

THIS.

A PRIME Wilt faced several of the same centers (some of whom were HOFers) that a PRIME Kareem would battle a few years later, and Chamberlain was FAR more dominant against them.

[jongib369]

Chamberlain could go toe-to-toe as far as peaks but he didn't win as much and didn't have that type of longevity.

Dont really understand this reasoning. Likely heard these arguments before, and we may of had this conversation before...But I'll bring up a few points I'd like to you consider/respond to

1. As you're well aware of, winning in a team game comes down to multiple factors....Like who's on your team, the health of your team throughout the season, their age, who your coach is, and even those factors for other teams....

Two questions regarding this I'll list as A & B

A. Replace 32 year old Kareem with Wilt the same age, Magics rookie year. To note for context, off the top of my head, even though Wilt was no longer in his scoring roll he had 2 or 3 60+ point games at that age.....How many rings do you think he gets with Magic? And with the same role, what stats does he put up?

B. Replace rookie Kareem with Rookie Wilt, with him getting traded the same years with the same roles that went along with it...How many Rings does Kareem get during the Celtics reign? And what stats does he put up? (For both you can just note key seasons.

2. Longevity. I never understood why in the case of someone like Chamberlain, Kareem's longevity could be held against him. If you were talking Jordan VS Bird I can understand that logic....And I understand that you're probably factoring in Wilts injuries...But unless I'm mistaken for when their careers overlapped, Wilt played more minutes as an old fart than Kareem. At age 34 wilt averaged 44.3, technically more minutes than Kareem ever averaged... Not saying Kareem couldn't play more...But not only was Wilt able to keep up stamina wise at that age with a young kareem, Kareem's minutes dropped significantly throughout his Career, more so than Chamberlain. At the same age of Wilt's retirement, Kareem was playing 11 minutes less. So while he was able to play more seasons, I think Wilt just decided to hang it up way too early.

http://i.usatoday.net/sports/basketball/_photos/wilt-chamberlain-gallery/wilt6pg-vertical.jpg

https://mit.zenfs.com/207/2011/05/WiltKAJ.jpg

http://i45.tinypic.com/2dqttet.jpg

Given the points I said above, and the fact that IMO Wilt was as good or arguably better at scoring, and better at rebounding, defending, and passing... I see no reason to rank Kareem higher than Wilt....other than factors that weren't in their control

[ILLsmak]

Kareem is first goat to me. He won in college, too. The only person who has a better case is russell, but kareem did it later and also had gaudy stats.

Kareem is also the best c. Shaq would house kareem 1v1 but bball is more than that.

-Smak

[LAZERUSS]

Kareem is first goat to me. He won in college, too. The only person who has a better case is russell, but kareem did it later and also had gaudy stats.

Kareem is also the best c. Shaq would house kareem 1v1 but bball is more than that.

-Smak

A 38-39 year old Kareem was carpet-bombing a 23-24 year old Hakeem, and even a 40 year old KAJ easily outplayed a 25 year old Hakeem in their four H2H's that same season. Hell, a 39 year old Kareem was dumping 40, 43, and 46 point games on Hakeem.

Shaq's career high game against Hakeem was 37 points, and it came at Shaq's PEAK, and against a fading Hakeem.

No way in hell does Shaq outplay Kareem. And while he would have did his share of damage against Kareem, there is no way in hell that he is stopping the sky-hook. Kareem would hang 40+ point games on him, just like he did against everyone else he faced in his career.

[jongib369]

A 38-39 year old Kareem was carpet-bombing a 23-24 year old Hakeem, and even a 40 year old KAJ easily outplayed a 25 year old Hakeem in their four H2H's that same season. Hell, a 39 year old Kareem was dumping 40, 43, and 46 point games on Hakeem.

Shaq's career high game against Hakeem was 37 points, and it came at Shaq's PEAK, and against a fading Hakeem.

No way in hell does Shaq outplay Kareem. And while he would have did his share of damage against Kareem, there is no way in hell that he is stopping the sky-hook. Kareem would hang 40+ point games on him, just like he did against everyone else he faced in his career.
What do you think the h2h numbers would look like between Kareem and Shaq? Including FG%

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Tim Dunkan is a second tier player comparing to Kareem.

Top 5 GOAT who will have 6 rings, 4 FMVP and 2 MVP after this year being second tier to anyone.

:roll:

[ImKobe]

Tim Duncan
Bill has 5 more
Weak era
Walton slayed Alcindor
6'5 White guys
4 Rebounds Per Game in the final v Detroit

Kareem at same age is better

Kareem owned Wilt's soul

Kareem played well in the 60s, 70s AND the 80s

Duncan never led the league in FG%, rebs, blocks or points

Kareem did all 4 of that

25/11/4 with 2.6 BPG (with blocks not being counted his first 4 seasons) for his career, those are like peak Duncan numbers.

[NumberSix]

Kareem weighed less than Durant. Not a joke.

[LAZERUSS]

What do you think the h2h numbers would look like between Kareem and Shaq? Including FG%

A PRIME Kareem vs a PRIME Shaq?

As dominant as Shaq was, most fans over-rate his level of dominance. The reality was, a prime Shaq faced a ton of bums in those years, and still couldn't average 30 ppg. Yes, he could turn it on for a short playoff run against an aging Mutombo, but against the Spurs, for example, his numbers dropped considerably. Furthermore, Shaq struggled against the likes of a career stumblebum like Eddy Curry.

Meanwhile, Kareem, even past his prime, was slaughtering the likes of Hakeem and Ewing. And a PRIME Kareem was a very solid rebounder (he even led the league one year), and his defense was very under-rated. Most fans probably aren't aware of the fact that KAJ anchored the best defensive teams in the league from '71 thru '74. A couple of those were all-time great defensive teams, too.

I honestly believe that a PRIME Kareem was better at EVERY facet of the game than a PRIME Shaq. The only edge that Shaq might have would be in FG% efficiency, and only because his offense almost always came from inside of five feet. And even that would have been negated by Kareem's better FT shooting (albeit, Kareem was never the force from the line that Shaq was.)

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Kareem at same age is better

Kareem wasn't nearly the defender/rim protector/shot blocker/rebounder than Duncan is at the same advanced age.

:no:

Leave it to a Kobe stan to only look at offensive output instead of the whole picture.

[ILLsmak]

A 38-39 year old Kareem was carpet-bombing a 23-24 year old Hakeem, and even a 40 year old KAJ easily outplayed a 25 year old Hakeem in their four H2H's that same season. Hell, a 39 year old Kareem was dumping 40, 43, and 46 point games on Hakeem.

Shaq's career high game against Hakeem was 37 points, and it came at Shaq's PEAK, and against a fading Hakeem.

No way in hell does Shaq outplay Kareem. And while he would have did his share of damage against Kareem, there is no way in hell that he is stopping the sky-hook. Kareem would hang 40+ point games on him, just like he did against everyone else he faced in his career.

To be fair shaq was a consistent scorer. He wasn't the type to have huge scoring games. He was like a 30 40 guy. I don't think shaq would put eighty on kareem but shaqwould psychologically wreck him. Over a series he would be whining to refs.

If the refs allowed shaq to be shaq, he would dunk his way to forty a game. Kareem might have forty, too, but on lower percentage.

Shaq actually respected hakeem a lot. He didnt like kareem. I think shaq wanted to prove he could out skill hakeem, I imagine he'd just crush kareem.

There's no way kareem could guard shaq. He couldn't even keep him from catching the ball low. He probably would get killed on orebs too.

-Smak

[LAZERUSS]

To be fair shaq was a consistent scorer. He wasn't the type to have huge scoring games. He was like a 30 40 guy. I don't think shaq would put eighty on kareem but shaqwould psychologically wreck him. Over a series he would be whining to refs.

If the refs allowed shaq to be shaq, he would dunk his way to forty a game. Kareem might have forty, too, but on lower percentage.

Shaq actually respected hakeem a lot. He didnt like kareem. I think shaq wanted to prove he could out skill hakeem, I imagine he'd just crush kareem.

There's no way kareem could guard shaq. He couldn't even keep him from catching the ball low. He probably would get killed on orebs too.

-Smak

If this guy could contain Shaq...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg3BiOw4TWo

Then a prime Kareem would have had no problems.

[LAZERUSS]

To be fair shaq was a consistent scorer. He wasn't the type to have huge scoring games. He was like a 30 40 guy. I don't think shaq would put eighty on kareem but shaqwould psychologically wreck him. Over a series he would be whining to refs.

If the refs allowed shaq to be shaq, he would dunk his way to forty a game. Kareem might have forty, too, but on lower percentage.

Shaq actually respected hakeem a lot. He didnt like kareem. I think shaq wanted to prove he could out skill hakeem, I imagine he'd just crush kareem.

There's no way kareem could guard shaq. He couldn't even keep him from catching the ball low. He probably would get killed on orebs too.

-Smak

I think a more interesting H2H would have been a prime Moses against a prime Shaq. Shaq was obviously bigger, and stronger, but Moses was more relentless. I think a prime Moses would have wore a prime Shaq down.

[ILLsmak]

I think a more interesting H2H would have been a prime Moses against a prime Shaq. Shaq was obviously bigger, and stronger, but Moses was more relentless. I think a prime Moses would have wore a prime Shaq down.

It'd be interesting but I doubt anyone would wear shaq down. We've rarely seen prime shaq pushed and his motivation was his largest issue. If someone came out to bang w him I think shaq would go in on him.

-Smak

[jongib369]

It'd be interesting but I doubt anyone would wear shaq down. We've rarely seen prime shaq pushed and his motivation was his largest issue. If someone came out to bang w him I think shaq would go in on him.

-Smak
Wilt and Shaq would have brought the best out of eachother from a physical standpoint. Would of been fun as **** to watch....It's a damn shame we'll never got to see it.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Kareem is the GOAT not 2nd GOAT u Jordan stan

[ShawkFactory]

Wilt and Shaq would have brought the best out of eachother from a physical standpoint. Would of been fun as **** to watch....It's a damn shame we'll never got to see it.
Wilt vs Shaq would be jizz-worthy.

Those are the two guys in the history of the game that you don't want to piss off.

They'd piss each other off and it would be glorious to watch.

[julizaver]

Top 5 GOAT who will have 6 rings, 4 FMVP and 2 MVP after this year being second tier to anyone.

:roll:

Tim Duncan is not Top 5 GOAT, he's got the resume but otherwise:

- he is a center who spent his best days at PF (this is not his fault - there a reasons behind, but this is fact);

- in terms of talent and skills Kareem head and shoulders above;

- in terms of statistical dominance - Kareem by far;

- in terms of individual achievements Kareem won 6 times the MVP award, Duncan 2;

Tim Duncan just got the chance to enter NBA at the right team and the right time under right coach/system. Not underestimation from my side - just trying to be objective. Duncan pro-career is similar to that of Bill Russell.

For me in terms of talent and prime David Robinson had the upper hand - Duncan could have advantage in mentality.

For me Tim Duncan is probably in Top 20, but definitely out of Top 10.

[kshutts1]

And a little bit of Magic.

He's not in my top 10. Walton slayed that Islamist every time they locked horns.
Interesting.

What is your top 10? What criteria do you use?

[bizil]

Kareem has a tremendous case as the GOAT center as it is. I can see cases made for Wilt as well. And due to all those rings, Russ has a case too. If u look at Kareem's resume, I think its the most impressive. As time has gone on, I rank Kareem as the GOAT center.

Center is the one position that's the most debatable in my opinion. At SF, u just get Bird vs. Bron GOAT NBA wise. If u throw ABA in there, I think Doc has a case for GOAT SF.

PG, SG, and PF convincingly go to Magic, MJ, and Timmy respectively. But for centers, u can EASILY argue three different guys as the GOAT center. Even though peak wise, Russ AINT ANYWHERE CLOSE to Kareem or Wilt. And to be frank, I think Kareem has a good case as the GOAT flat out over MJ. However, MJ has two three peats and 10 scoring titles to help separate him. And the fact that he willed those Bulls teams as a 6'6 perimeter player is SICK TOO!

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Tim Duncan is not Top 5 GOAT, he's got the resume but otherwise:

- he is a center who spent his best days at PF (this is not his fault - there a reasons behind, but this is fact);

- in terms of talent and skills Kareem head and shoulders above;

- in terms of statistical dominance - Kareem by far;

- in terms of individual achievements Kareem won 6 times the MVP award, Duncan 2;

Tim Duncan just got the chance to enter NBA at the right team and the right time under right coach/system. Not underestimation from my side - just trying to be objective. Duncan pro-career is similar to that of Bill Russell.

For me in terms of talent and prime David Robinson had the upper hand - Duncan could have advantage in mentality.

For me Tim Duncan is probably in Top 20, but definitely out of Top 10.

Tim Duncan IS a top 5 GOAT, he's got the resume AND otherwise.

- He's the greatest PF of all time.

- Debatable. They don't call him The Big Fundamental for nothing. And even if Kareem is slightly above Duncan, I said he was a top 5 GOAT, not top 2 GOAT, so who cares?

- Stats aren't all that matter. Not everything shows up in the score sheet. There is also a little something called DEFENSE that's pretty important as well.

- Most MVP years are subjective. Duncan also has more FMVP's than Kareem.

Saying Duncan and Bill Russell did what they did because of timing/coach/system is utterly disrespectful to two of the greatest basketball players of all time.

:biggums:

Robinson was a great player in his prime with amazing talent, but he is not the winner that Tim Duncan is. Let's just leave it at that.

Saying Tim Duncan is a top 20 player only and out of the top 10.

:facepalm

Yeah, you clearly are batshit insane and there is no debating with a crazy person such as yourself. Not to mention, I'm about 500% sure you're just a Laz alt, so there's that...

[LAZERUSS]

Tim Duncan IS a top 5 GOAT, he's got the resume AND otherwise.

- He's the greatest PF of all time.

- Debatable. They don't call him The Big Fundamental for nothing. And even if Kareem is slightly above Duncan, I said he was a top 5 GOAT, not top 2 GOAT, so who cares?

- Stats aren't all that matter. Not everything shows up in the score sheet. There is also a little something called DEFENSE that's pretty important as well.

- Most MVP years are subjective. Duncan also has more FMVP's than Kareem.

Saying Duncan and Bill Russell did what they did because of timing/coach/system is utterly disrespectful to two of the greatest basketball players of all time.

:biggums:

Robinson was a great player in his prime with amazing talent, but he is not the winner that Tim Duncan is. Let's just leave it at that.

Saying Tim Duncan is a top 20 player only and out of the top 10.

:facepalm

Yeah, you clearly are batshit insane and there is no debating with a crazy person such as yourself. Not to mention, I'm about 500% sure you're just a Laz alt, so there's that...

You would be 500% wrong.

BTW, I have Duncan at #7.

[AkronAngel]

I am so confused about why most rankings list him as number 2 all time, when he's not even the consensus best center of all time.

In terms of dominance, Kareem played in a very weak era during his prime, and he was never as dominant as Shaq. Kareem never had a season with PER over 30, while Shaq had 3 seasons with over 30 PER. There's only 1 player I would take over a peak Shaq, and that's MJ, not KAJ.

In terms of winning, Bill Russell >>>> Kareem. Also Kareem never won much before he was teamed up with Magic. Kareem only had 1 ring before teaming up with the greatest point guard of all time on one of the GOAT teams ever.

So I don't get why Kareem is always ranked so high. Longevity =/= greatness.

Well, most other 2nd GOAT candidates are also centers, so it is no surprise.

[bdreason]

How can MJ be the GOAT when he provided ZERO paint or rim protection?

[julizaver]

Tim Duncan IS a top 5 GOAT, he's got the resume AND otherwise.

OK, it will be interesting to post your TOP5 GOAT list, as it will be interesting who of the other All-time greats you are leaving out to the expense of Duncan.


- He's the greatest PF of all time.

He is a misplaced center, but as PF it is debatable if he was better than K. Malone for example as the last was a true PF and spent his entire career at that position.


- Debatable. They don't call him The Big Fundamental for nothing. And even if Kareem is slightly above Duncan, I said he was a top 5 GOAT, not top 2 GOAT, so who cares?

Agree about fundamentals - unlike other NBA stars Duncan stayed in college for 4 years. About Kareem and Duncan occupying two of the 5 spots in TOP 5 GOAT list - who are the other three ?


- Stats aren't all that matter. Not everything shows up in the score sheet. There is also a little something called DEFENSE that's pretty important as well.

Kareem was capable defender also and although you also have it in your TOP 5 GOAT I insist that he is above Duncan on that list.


- Most MVP years are subjective. Duncan also has more FMVP's than Kareem.

You can not won FMVP if you didn't play for strong team. Kareem won 5 of his 6 chips after 1980 (or after he was past his prime). Dunkan won all of his FMVPs while in his prime (before turned 30). It depends on how strong team you played during his prime years. Kareem won his last at ... 38.


Saying Duncan and Bill Russell did what they did because of timing/coach/system is utterly disrespectful to two of the greatest basketball players of all time.

Not only because of this, but this is part of life - sometimes you got the chance or luck to find a good job at early age, sometimes you changed till you find it in order to be succesful, but waste time. Sometimes the success came early, sometimes a little bit lately - if ever. BTW do you have Russell in your TOP 5 GOAT ?


Saying Tim Duncan is a top 20 player only and out of the top 10.

After you post your TOP 5 - I will post my TOP 10.


Yeah, you clearly are batshit insane and there is no debating with a crazy person such as yourself. Not to mention, I'm about 500% sure you're just a Laz alt, so there's that...

The insults are not going to make your points more valid ones.

:lol at being someone's alt.

[Lebron23]

6x NBA Champion, 6x NBA MVP, and 3x NBA Finals MVP*. He was the best player in the 1980 NBA Finals.

[ClipperRevival]

Because you have to look at the entire body of work. From college to the pros, longevity, skills, peak, individual awards, individual achievements, team accomplishments, etc. When you put all of that together, it's not hard to see why most consider him arguably the GOAT right there with MJ. And that's also how I feel. He's the only guy along with MJ who can legitimately make the claim of being the GOAT. No one else is in their tier imo.