If Barry Bonds played in the 1960s, what kind of numbers would he average?

[Bodhi]

If you had a time machine and sent 2001 Barry Bonds back to 1965, what do you think his numbers would look like?

He'd destroy the league. There's a good chance he hits well over 130 home runs, right?

[ralph_i_el]

Does he still get to play for the Giants? Because Candlestick was a tough park for homeruns.

Bonds-Mays outfield :eek:

[christian1923]

If you had a time machine and sent 2001 Barry Bonds back to 1965, what do you think his numbers would look like?

He'd destroy the league. There's a good chance he hits well over 130 home runs, right?
130 homeruns? Have you lost your mind?

[24-Inch_Chrome]

130? No, no one could make that happen in any era. Also, send back 1993 Bonds instead of 2001 Bonds, 1993 was probably his best clean season and he was in his prime.

Baseball is a funny sport as far as a time travel hypothetical, there's not the same kind of era-based ability drop-off that one would see in other sports imo. He might beat the 46 he hit in 1993 but it wouldn't be an astronomical number like 130, 55ish tops sounds better to me.

Does anyone have velocity numbers for 60s pitchers? Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax, Don Drysdale, Tom Seaver, etc.

[CakeorDeath]

If you had a time machine and sent 2001 Barry Bonds back to 1965, what do you think his numbers would look like?

He'd destroy the league. There's a good chance he hits well over 130 home runs, right?

Depends; how available were roids in 1965?

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Does he still get to play for the Giants? Because Candlestick was a tough park for homeruns.

Bonds-Mays outfield :eek:

Just give them all the World Series rings now. :oldlol:

[ILLsmak]

I thought this was a troll and dude was talking about the NBA. That would have been funnier.

-Smak

[christian1923]

130? No, no one could make that happen in any era. Also, send back 1993 Bonds instead of 2001 Bonds, 1993 was probably his best clean season and he was in his prime.

Baseball is a funny sport as far as a time travel hypothetical, there's not the same kind of era-based ability drop-off that one would see in other sports imo. He might beat the 46 he hit in 1993 but it wouldn't be an astronomical number like 130, 55ish tops sounds better to me.

Does anyone have velocity numbers for 60s pitchers? Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax, Don Drysdale, Tom Seaver, etc.
Gibson was high 90's to 100

All the rest were mid 90's

[Real Men Wear Green]

Pre-steroids Bonds had a body that could make for a good point guard I guess but with the various skills required to play basketball it's really impossible to tell what kind of player he would be. The level of athleticism has improved over the years but assuming a guy would be a good player from a completely different sport just because we turned back the clock is a major stretch.

[jongib369]

1967 Minnesota Twins at Boston Red Sox
https://youtu.be/Cze3fMSa84w

[LAZERUSS]

Pre-steroids Bonds had a body that could make for a good point guard I guess but with the various skills required to play basketball it's really impossible to tell what kind of player he would be. The level of athleticism has improved over the years but assuming a guy would be a good player from a completely different sport just because we turned back the clock is a major stretch.

Pre-steroid Bonds would have been about the same in the 60's as he was in the 90's. A great, but not immortal, player.

[LAZERUSS]

The real question would be...

how would Mickey Mantle have fared in the 2000's, with PEDs instead of alcohol, and much better medical technology?

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Pre-steroid Bonds would have been about the same in the 60's as he was in the 90's. A great, but not immortal, player.
Agreed. Bonds was a top 12 player all-time, pre-98. He couldn't be happy with that lol. He just had to juice. Rumor has it that he was jealous at the adulation inferior players like Sosa and McGwire were getting, for their long ball exploits, and wanted to one up them. Damn shame. I believe he was the player of the 90s, at least among position players.

Also agree with your point about Mantle. One of the greatest physical specimen of any sport, ever.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Pre-steroids Bonds had a body that could make for a good point guard I guess but with the various skills required to play basketball it's really impossible to tell what kind of player he would be. The level of athleticism has improved over the years but assuming a guy would be a good player from a completely different sport just because we turned back the clock is a major stretch.

Interestingly enough, Bonds could dunk at 6'1. No telling how good he could have been as a player though.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

130? No, no one could make that happen in any era. Also, send back 1993 Bonds instead of 2001 Bonds, 1993 was probably his best clean season and he was in his prime.

Baseball is a funny sport as far as a time travel hypothetical, there's not the same kind of era-based ability drop-off that one would see in other sports imo. He might beat the 46 he hit in 1993 but it wouldn't be an astronomical number like 130, 55ish tops sounds better to me.

Does anyone have velocity numbers for 60s pitchers? Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax, Don Drysdale, Tom Seaver, etc.

Until they lowered the mound in '69, the league-wide offensive production was anemic, at an all time low really. The year prior, Gibson led the league with a 1.12 ERA and Yaz won the batting title hitting .301.

So, transport Bonds to that time and hes hitting against pitchers that are, while inferior to today's pitchers, pitching on a higher mound, and have a wider strike zone to work with.

[sd3035]

The real question would be...

how would Mickey Mantle have fared in the 2000's, with PEDs instead of alcohol, and much better medical technology?


What about Babe Ruth with real nutrition and training?

It was much harder to hit home runs in Ruth's era. The massive parks and dead baseball more than made up for the slightly weaker pitching

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

What about Babe Ruth with real nutrition and training?

It was much harder to hit home runs in Ruth's era. The massive parks and dead baseball more than made up for the slightly weaker pitching

Well, they actually livened the balls almost right as Ruth was becoming a full-time position player, and the dimensions of YS were favourable to him and other righties. Big reason they called it "the house that Ruth built".

Unfortunately, it also GREATLY hampered lefties, more than any park in baseball history. Look at Joe D's splits

Home: .315/.391/.546, 148 homers
Road: .333/.405/.605, 213 homers

Anyways, regardless, Ruth was so naturally powerful, had such amazing hand-eye coordination and reaction time at the plate, as well as plate discipline that was well ahead of his time, that he'd be a monster in any generation. GOAT hitter and would have been a historically great pitcher had he stayed on the mound (top 5 pitcher at the start of his career and has an insane world series ERA, something like 0.60 in 50 or so innings).

[ralph_i_el]

What about Babe Ruth with real nutrition and training?

It was much harder to hit home runs in Ruth's era. The massive parks and dead baseball more than made up for the slightly weaker pitching
Yeah, but he only played against whites... When you disallow a huge % of possible athletes you get weak competition

[ralph_i_el]

The real question would be...

how would Mickey Mantle have fared in the 2000's, with PEDs instead of alcohol, and much better medical technology?
We don't have alcohol in the 2000's? Once a 'lic, always a 'lic

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

We don't have alcohol in the 2000's? Once a 'lic, always a 'lic
Even with his many vices, and the litany of injuries he endured, he was one of the best ever.

[ShawkFactory]

Just give them all the World Series rings now. :oldlol:
Come on now. You know baseball doesn't work like that.

[Akrazotile]

Pre-steroids Bonds had a body that could make for a good point guard I guess but with the various skills required to play basketball it's really impossible to tell what kind of player he would be. The level of athleticism has improved over the years but assuming a guy would be a good player from a completely different sport just because we turned back the clock is a major stretch.


This is libelous.

Unbecomming of a moderator.

[IncarceratedBob]

If he gets to use a corked bat like babe ruth, joltin joe, maris, etc used then he'd hit 100

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Come on now. You know baseball doesn't work like that.

It usually doesn't. Mays and Bonds together in an outfield would be something special.

[sd3035]

Well, they actually livened the balls almost right as Ruth was becoming a full-time position player, and the dimensions of YS were favourable to him and other righties. Big reason they called it "the house that Ruth built".

Unfortunately, it also GREATLY hampered lefties, more than any park in baseball history. Look at Joe D's splits

Home: .315/.391/.546, 148 homers
Road: .333/.405/.605, 213 homers

Anyways, regardless, Ruth was so naturally powerful, had such amazing hand-eye coordination and reaction time at the plate, as well as plate discipline that was well ahead of his time, that he'd be a monster in any generation. GOAT hitter and would have been a historically great pitcher had he stayed on the mound (top 5 pitcher at the start of his career and has an insane world series ERA, something like 0.60 in 50 or so innings).

Babe Ruth had 347 HR at home, and 367 on the road

He was also not just destroying every individual, but hitting more HR than most entire teams on multiple occasions. If the ball was really live, almost everyone else must have sucked

[ralph_i_el]

Come on now. You know baseball doesn't work like that.
The two GOAT position players on the same team would be something really special.

Nobody that played their prime pre-integration can qualify as a GOAT in my book

[FKAri]

3-4 HR's a game. So probably 400,000,000

[ShawkFactory]

The two GOAT position players on the same team would be something really special.

Nobody that played their prime pre-integration can qualify as a GOAT in my book
I mean of course it would be special to watch, but there's absolutely no guarantees for rings ever.

Ted Williams is the greatest hitter ever.

[bdreason]

Does he get to bring the steroids and HGH with him?

[ralph_i_el]

I mean of course it would be special to watch, but there's absolutely no guarantees for rings ever.

Ted Williams is the greatest hitter ever.
Probably, but Bonds and Mays were 5 tool players and were comparable hitters. Bonds has the best eye of any hitter I have ever seen. I'd take Mays over Williams for that GOAT level D

[jstern]

Agreed. Bonds was a top 12 player all-time, pre-98. He couldn't be happy with that lol. He just had to juice. Rumor has it that he was jealous at the adulation inferior players like Sosa and McGwire were getting, for their long ball exploits, and wanted to one up them. Damn shame. I believe he was the player of the 90s, at least among position players.

Also agree with your point about Mantle. One of the greatest physical specimen of any sport, ever.

I kind of like that about Bonds. Because everybody was going crazy over Mcgwire and Sammy Sosa, as if they were gods. He's like, "These scrubs," because he's that good.

Anyway, Pedro Martinez from 1998 would probably get rocked if he played in 2015, because of evolution, etc, etc, etc.

I hate kids that think that the world started when they became semi conscious.

[warriorfan]

Pre-steroid Bonds would have been about the same in the 60's as he was in the 90's. A great, but not immortal, player.



Barry Bonds would be a top 2 player in any era of baseball.

[ShawkFactory]

I kind of like that about Bonds. Because everybody was going crazy over Mcgwire and Sammy Sosa, as if they were gods. He's like, "These scrubs," because he's that good.

Anyway, Pedro Martinez from 1998 would probably get rocked if he played in 2015, because of evolution, etc, etc, etc.

I hate kids that think that the world started when they became semi conscious.
99-2000 Pedro would be the best pitcher in the game in any era ever aside from perhaps Koufax's peak.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Babe Ruth had 347 HR at home, and 367 on the road

He was also not just destroying every individual, but hitting more HR than most entire teams on multiple occasions. If the ball was really live, almost everyone else must have sucked

True , but his OPS was 40 points higher at home.... And YS wasn't built until '23. Before then he played in the polo grounds, which somewhat suppressed his totals.

And nah, it just took a while for it to catch on. Teams didn't start swinging for the fences until the latter half of the 20's, when it became commonplace. The late 20s to late 30s was the most potent offensive era in the history of baseball, in terms of runs scored. Before then, taking huge cuts at the ball was considered sacrilege by the old-timers. Ruth was a true pioneer.

Mind you , I'm not diminishing him, hes the GOAT. just tryna add to the discussion. :D

[GOBB]

If you had a time machine and sent 2001 Barry Bonds back to 1965, what do you think his numbers would look like?

He'd destroy the league. There's a good chance he hits well over 130 home runs, right?

Not unless you're putting his trainer and PEDs in time machine with him. He would also see more high and inside fast balls that would back him up off the plate. And no ump would side with him in his complaint.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

I kind of like that about Bonds. Because everybody was going crazy over Mcgwire and Sammy Sosa, as if they were gods. He's like, "These scrubs," because he's that good.

Anyway, Pedro Martinez from 1998 would probably get rocked if he played in 2015, because of evolution, etc, etc, etc.

I hate kids that think that the world started when they became semi conscious.

Pedro, at one point, led the league in ERA by over 100 points. That's unfathomable. This is despite playing in a hitters park.

At the height of the steroid era, with run and homer rates at their highest since the 30's, he posted a sub-2.00 ERA. and just as early as 10 years ago, at the age of 34, he was a cy young candidate and put up a 2.82 ERA.

I think he'd be a STUD if he pitched today.

[jstern]

99-2000 Pedro would be the best pitcher in the game in any era ever aside from perhaps Koufax's peak.



Pedro, at one point, led the league in ERA by over 100 points. That's unfathomable. This is despite playing in a hitters park.

At the height of the steroid era, with run and homer rates at their highest since the 30's, he posted a sub-2.00 ERA. and just as early as 10 years ago, at the age of 34, he was a cy young candidate and put up a 2.82 ERA.

I think he'd be a STUD if he pitched today.

For the record, I was just making fun of the teenage fans who probably only know some like Pedro Martinez by name, but dismiss him because in their self focused point of view, life started when they were born.

[ShawkFactory]

For the record, I was just making fun of the teenage fans who probably only know some like Pedro Martinez by name, but dismiss him because in their self focused point of view, life started when they were born.
I figured. I just wanted say that in case any of those kids you're talking about we're reading.

[Hey Yo]

Pre-steroid Bonds would have been about the same in the 60's as he was in the 90's. A great, but not immortal, player.
http://cdn.funnyhub.com/images/funny-pictures/barry-bonds-rookie-card.jpg

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

For the record, I was just making fun of the teenage fans who probably only know some like Pedro Martinez by name, but dismiss him because in their self focused point of view, life started when they were born.
Oh okay, my bad lol, in retrospect its obvious...I've been drinking so I'm not as coherent as I would usually be :p

[JohnnySic]

I never blame Bonds for juicing. Everyone was juicing. Bonds was the greatest player of his time and one of the greatest of all time, and deserved the limelight. Fukc Sosa and McGwire.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

I mean of course it would be special to watch, but there's absolutely no guarantees for rings ever.

Ted Williams is the greatest hitter ever.

:applause:

He's my #1 all-time hitter. His defense was never anything special (there are stories about him just standing in the outfield practicing hitting rather than watching the ball) but his offensive game was unparalleled imo.

Bonds/Mays were better complete players though, and while baseball is not a sport of guarantees I can't see an outfield of Mays/Bonds (arguably the two best position players ever) not launching a true dynasty.

[Joyner82reload]

In what world was Barry Bonds a better player, pre steroids, than Griffey Jr. pre injuries? Griffey, and not Bonds, was the best player from the 90's and would have likely been one of the top 5 GOAT if his body didn't fall apart. As for this hypothetical, baseball translates very well across eras. The game has been far too relevant for far too long. You put Babe Ruth in today's era with today's training and medical, he's still hitting 45+ homer's every year and hitting .325+

[ShawkFactory]

In what world was Barry Bonds a better player, pre steroids, than Griffey Jr. pre injuries? Griffey, and not Bonds, was the best player from the 90's and would have likely been one of the top 5 GOAT if his body didn't fall apart. As for this hypothetical, baseball translates very well across eras. The game has been far too relevant for far too long. You put Babe Ruth in today's era with today's training and medical, he's still hitting 45+ homer's every year and hitting .325+
Bonds was a better hitter than Griffey.

Far more dangerous on the basepaths too.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

In what world was Barry Bonds a better player, pre steroids, than Griffey Jr. pre injuries? Griffey, and not Bonds, was the best player from the 90's and would have likely been one of the top 5 GOAT if his body didn't fall apart. As for this hypothetical, baseball translates very well across eras. The game has been far too relevant for far too long. You put Babe Ruth in today's era with today's training and medical, he's still hitting 45+ homer's every year and hitting .325+

I'm a huge Griffey fan...but prime Bonds > Griffey. As Bill James put it, "Griffey has always been more popular, but Bonds has been a far, far greater player."

Now, I'm not sure if I'd call Bonds 'far, far greater,' and there is the question of what Griffey would have been if he hadn't been injured...but with what we got from both players during the 1990s, Bonds was better. No question.

[dreamwarrior]

I'm a huge Griffey fan...but prime Bonds > Griffey. As Bill James put it, "Griffey has always been more popular, but Bonds has been a far, far greater player."

Now, I'm not sure if I'd call Bonds 'far, far greater,' and there is the question of what Griffey would have been if he hadn't been injured...but with what we got from both players during the 1990s, Bonds was better. No question.
Clean vs clean, Griffey was the better HR hitter. Bonds only hit 33 and 34 home runs in his first two MVP seasons. But PEDs and Bonds just worked so well together and 90% of that was due to training properly. Jose Canseco and McGwire took more potent stuff but both worked out like bodybuilders instead of like athletes. ARod also worked out properly while taking things that I don't even consider to be steroids.

[christian1923]

Bonds had the best eye at the plate I've ever seen.

He hardly ever swung at a bad pitch

[ShawkFactory]

Clean vs clean, Griffey was the better HR hitter. Bonds only hit 33 and 34 home runs in his first two MVP seasons. But PEDs and Bonds just worked so well together and 90% of that was due to training properly. Jose Canseco and McGwire took more potent stuff but both worked out like bodybuilders instead of like athletes. ARod also worked out properly while taking things that I don't even consider to be steroids.
That's literally it though. Pure volume of home runs. Every single other aspect of hitting goes to Bonds. His SLG% numbers in his pre-steroid peak were actually better than Griffey's were.

[warriorfan]

In what world was Barry Bonds a better player, pre steroids, than Griffey Jr. pre injuries? Griffey, and not Bonds, was the best player from the 90's and would have likely been one of the top 5 GOAT if his body didn't fall apart. As for this hypothetical, baseball translates very well across eras. The game has been far too relevant for far too long. You put Babe Ruth in today's era with today's training and medical, he's still hitting 45+ homer's every year and hitting .325+

Griffey's PRIME was IN the steroid era. '94 Griffey is hitting 40 homeruns. '98 In the year of Sosa, Mcgwire, and the rest of them Griffey hits 56. Then after Griffey is plagued by mysterious lingering injuries, a telltale sign of PED abuse.



Even so, Bonds was better in, batting average, walks, on base percentage, OPS. Huge discrepancy in Stolen Bases and Strike outs. Bonds has a 40 Homerun 40 Stolenbase Season... Griffey has never even come close to sniffing 30 stolen bases in a season. Bonds career season average is 41HR/28SB, Griffey's is 38HR/11SB. Bonds was a better all around player. Before and after steroids.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Griffey's PRIME was IN the steroid era. '94 Griffey is hitting 40 homeruns. '98 In the year of Sosa, Mcgwire, and the rest of them Griffey hits 56. Then after Griffey is plagued by mysterious lingering injuries, a telltale sign of PED abuse.



Even so, Bonds was better in, batting average, on base percentage, OPS. Huge discrepancy in Stolen Bases and Strike outs. Bonds has a 40 Homerun 40 Stolenbase Season... Griffey has never even come close to sniffing 30 stolen bases in a season. Bonds career season average is 41HR/28SB, Griffey's is 38HR/11SB. Bonds was a better all around player. Before and after steroids.

:facepalm

Post proof or shut the **** up, that's baseless speculation and nothing more. This is the second (or third?) thread where you've brought this crap up, all without citing anything.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

That's literally it though. Pure volume of home runs. Every single other aspect of hitting goes to Bonds. His SLG% numbers in his pre-steroid peak were actually better than Griffey's were.

This. Bonds was a better complete hitter, and a better complete offensive player. Griffey is one of my all-time favorite players (along with probably Pete Rose and Ted Williams) but he just wasn't as good as Bonds. Griffey is still an all-time great level player but Bonds was just better.

[warriorfan]

Proof? Uhhh http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/griffke02.shtml

Notice what happens to his games played per season after he turns 30? You know who's bodies fail them after they turn 30? PED abusers.


This dude injured himself while wrestling with his 12 year old son on his boat....


:yaohappy: :yaohappy: :yaohappy:




Face the facts homeboy, Griffey was dirty, and injury prone. Bonds was the better player pre and post steroid era. Griffey was a good player but he was no Barry Bonds.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Proof? Uhhh http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/griffke02.shtml

Notice what happens to his games played per season after he turns 30? You know who's bodies fail them after they turn 30? PED abusers.


This dude injured himself while wrestling with his 12 year old son on his boat....


:yaohappy: :yaohappy: :yaohappy:




Face the facts homeboy, Griffey was dirty, and injury prone. Bonds was the better player pre and post steroid era. Griffey was a good player but he was no Barry Bonds.

You're an idiot. I'm not surprised you can't produce actual proof though, it doesn't exist. :confusedshrug:

[warriorfan]

You're an idiot. I'm not surprised you can't produce actual proof though, it doesn't exist. :confusedshrug:


You are a fuccing idiot, you cant click that link and see that he played in more than 90 games only 6 times after he turned 30 years old? So yeah you play about half the time after you turn 30, I'm pretty safe to say that is fuccing injury prone. I know you wern't old enough to follow sports back then but read this shit, Griffey's injuries used to be a huge running joke among sports journalists.



http://www.sportable.com/2007/02/18/trey-griffey-is-a-beast/




Learn to read or get the fucc out of the forum

[24-Inch_Chrome]

You are a fuccing idiot, you cant click that link and see that he played in more than 90 games only 6 times after he turned 30 years old? So yeah you play about half the time after you turn 30, I'm pretty safe to say that is fuccing injury prone. I know you wern't old enough to follow sports back then but read this shit, Griffey's injuries used to be a huge running joke among sports journalists.



http://www.sportable.com/2007/02/18/trey-griffey-is-a-beast/




Learn to read or get the fucc out of the forum

Blah blah blah, speculation, blah blah blah, speculation. Was he named in the Mitchell Report? Has anyone credible from within the sport itself said anything? No? Oh, that's right, you're arguing that injury prone = steroid abuse. Go put your tinfoil hat back on and get the **** out of this thread.

[warriorfan]

Blah blah blah, speculation, blah blah blah, speculation. Was he named in the Mitchell Report? Has anyone credible from within the sport itself said anything? No? Oh, that's right, you're arguing that injury prone = steroid abuse. Go put your tinfoil hat back on and get the **** out of this thread.


You are the one in the tin foil hat disregarding the most obvious and objective statistic. GAMES PLAYED!!!




:yaohappy: :yaohappy: :yaohappy:

[24-Inch_Chrome]

You are the one in the tin foil hat disregarding the most obvious and objective statistic. GAMES PLAYED!!!




:yaohappy: :yaohappy: :yaohappy:

:facepalm

So every player who missed significant time during the latter half of their career was using steroids. Gotcha. :rolleyes:

[ShawkFactory]

You are the one in the tin foil hat disregarding the most obvious and objective statistic. GAMES PLAYED!!!




:yaohappy: :yaohappy: :yaohappy:
:facepalm

[warriorfan]

:facepalm

So every player who missed significant time during the latter half of their career was using steroids. Gotcha. :rolleyes:



That plus your 2 highest Home Run years were at the utmost peak of the steroid era. Yep, just another coincidence. :oldlol: at these naieve kids who actually think Griffey never did steroids. Totally insane.

[Im Still Ballin]

Don't waste your time with warriorfan guys, he's a known troll

[Im Still Ballin]

OTOH; Barry Bonds is the greatest baseball player of all time, and should rightfully be in the hall of fame. He was never proven guilty of PED usage and he has the best stats. Multiple MVP's, he even won prior to the steroid allegations. He got robbed as well a few years and was oh so close to a world series win against the Angels.

[LAZERUSS]

Yeah, but he only played against whites... When you disallow a huge % of possible athletes you get weak competition

Ted Williams, in his 3rd season, in 1941, and before integration, batted .406. In 1957, and at age 38, in a league that had been integrated for 10 years, he batted .388.

In his rookie season, in 1939, Williams' batted .327, with 31 HRs. That same season an aging Jimmy Foxx batted .360, with 35 HRs. Just the year before, in 1938, Foxx batted .349 with 50 HRs. In 1932, a prime Foxx belted 58 HRs. In that same season, a way-past-prime Babe batted .341 with 41 HRs. Five years before that, a prime Ruth slugged 60 HRs.

[LAZERUSS]

If he gets to use a corked bat like babe ruth, joltin joe, maris, etc used then he'd hit 100

Ruth not only did NOT use a "corked bat"...he swung a bat that weighed 42 oz. I doubt there are too many hitters today who could turn on a change-up with a bat that heavy...much less against 100 MPH heat.

[LAZERUSS]

130? No, no one could make that happen in any era. Also, send back 1993 Bonds instead of 2001 Bonds, 1993 was probably his best clean season and he was in his prime.

Baseball is a funny sport as far as a time travel hypothetical, there's not the same kind of era-based ability drop-off that one would see in other sports imo. He might beat the 46 he hit in 1993 but it wouldn't be an astronomical number like 130, 55ish tops sounds better to me.

Does anyone have velocity numbers for 60s pitchers? Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax, Don Drysdale, Tom Seaver, etc.

You can add Nolan Ryan to that list, who was a rookie in 1969. BTW, 27 years later, at age 46, and on an injured arm, his very LAST pitch of his career was measured at 98 MPH.

In any case, this site will give you a better idea of just how hard those guys were throwing...

http://www.efastball.com/baseball/stats/fastest-pitch-speed-in-major-leagues/

As you can see, Bob Turley was throwing 103 MPH in 1954. Steve Barber hit 100 in 1960. Don Drysdale was at 99.8 in 1960. Sandy Koufax, who had to SLOW down his fastball to control it, was at 97.7 in 1960. Oh, and the hardest thrower of all-time? Nolan Ryan...108.1 MPH.


BTW, that site mentions Steve Dalkowski, and estimated his fastball at 102.5 MPH. How about this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Dalkowski

[24-Inch_Chrome]

You can add Nolan Ryan to that list, who was a rookie in 1969. BTW, 27 years later, at age 46, and on an injured arm, his very LAST pitch of his career was measured at 98 MPH.

In any case, this site will give you a better idea of just how hard those guys were throwing...

http://www.efastball.com/baseball/stats/fastest-pitch-speed-in-major-leagues/

As you can see, Bob Turley was throwing 103 MPH in 1954. Steve Barber hit 100 in 1960. Don Drysdale was at 99.8 in 1960. Sandy Koufax, who had to SLOW down his fastball to control it, was at 97.7 in 1960. Oh, and the hardest thrower of all-time? Nolan Ryan...108.1 MPH.


BTW, that site mentions Steve Dalkowski, and estimated his fastball at 102.5 MPH. How about this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Dalkowski

If I remember correctly, Ryan's last pitch was not only with an injured arm, but with a torn UCL. Arguably the most serious injury for pitchers in baseball and he throws a 98 MPH fastball at 46...wow.

I had read about Steve Dalkowski before while research Ted Williams, really interesting story. He was the only pitcher I ever read about that was able to intimidate Williams to any real degree, as Williams said he never wanted to face him again.

I wish there had been a way to gauge pitch speed back when Walter Johnson played, the player testimonials from the era are amazing.

[LAZERUSS]

If I remember correctly, Ryan's last pitch was not only with an injured arm, but with a torn UCL. Arguably the most serious injury for pitchers in baseball and he throws a 98 MPH fastball at 46...wow.

I had read about Steve Dalkowski before while research Ted Williams, really interesting story. He was the only pitcher I ever read about that was able to intimidate Williams to any real degree, as Williams said he never wanted to face him again.

I wish there had been a way to gauge pitch speed back when Walter Johnson played, the player testimonials from the era are amazing.

Williams was arguably the greatest hitter of all-time. I'm sure you are aware of it, but he basically missed about 5 seasons, in his prime, due to military service. Conservatively, it probably cost him 150 HRs, and maybe as much as 200.

And talk about a "what if season"...

After he returned from the Korean War in August of 1953, he played in only 37 games, and batted .407, with 13 HRs in only 91 ABs (and 110 PAs.) Had he played a full season, and his stats would have projected out to not only the last .400+ season, but likely 65 HRs.

A couple of fascinating stories about Williams...

Going into the last day of the 1941 season, he was batting .3996, which, rounded off, was .400. The Red Sox had a meaningless double-header, so his manager asked Williams if he would just like to sit out. Williams responded that there were fans there that came to see him play, so he would play. He went 6-8, and finished at .406. (As a sidenote...Mark McGuire sat out the last game of the 1991 season to avoid dropping below .201.)

Most everyone knows that Joe DiMaggio set the consecutive hit streak at 56 games in 1941, but most probably don't know that during that same streak, Williams outhit DiMaggio.

And finally, at age 41, Williams announced his retirement before the start of the 1960 season. In that season, he batted .316 with 29 HRs (in 310 ABs...and 390 PAs.) And in his very last at bat, he slugged a HR.

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, here was Mitch Williams take on Radar Guns...

http://www.danpatrick.com/2011/03/29/mitch-williams-stops-by-studio-to-preview-mlb-season/

[QUOTE]Williams wanted to be clear about the speed pitchers throw. He said that there

[ShawkFactory]

You can add Nolan Ryan to that list, who was a rookie in 1969. BTW, 27 years later, at age 46, and on an injured arm, his very LAST pitch of his career was measured at 98 MPH.

In any case, this site will give you a better idea of just how hard those guys were throwing...

http://www.efastball.com/baseball/stats/fastest-pitch-speed-in-major-leagues/

As you can see, Bob Turley was throwing 103 MPH in 1954. Steve Barber hit 100 in 1960. Don Drysdale was at 99.8 in 1960. Sandy Koufax, who had to SLOW down his fastball to control it, was at 97.7 in 1960. Oh, and the hardest thrower of all-time? Nolan Ryan...108.1 MPH.


BTW, that site mentions Steve Dalkowski, and estimated his fastball at 102.5 MPH. How about this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Dalkowski
You're like my grandpa. You're very knowledgable but you stopped respecting the game, both basketball and now baseball I guess, a while ago.

The athletes in your time weren't better than ours. Nor are ours necessarily better than yours. Understand that people who don't respect what happened before our time aren't worth arguing with. The average age of regular posters here is FAR below 30.

It just irks me that you are so adamant that Nolan Ryan, for instance, is better than what we have.

Kershaw against hitters in the 70s and 80s would be stupid.

Maybe it boils down to you respecting the players but not respecting the people you talk about the players with. And that's fair. But anyone with a brain knows that Nolan Ryan was a godsend. So don't be so angry when retards don't understand that.

[LAZERUSS]

Related to Bonds' "record-breaking" 2001 season...

IMHO, and "post-Ruth"...Willie Mays 1965 season was the single greatest HR season of the modern era. He hit 52 HRs, and the next highest player was at 39 (teammate Willie McCovey...who was left-handed BTW...), and the AL high was Tony Conigliaro, at 32. That +13 margin is the highest "non-Ruth" differential in MLB history.

Oh, and I mentioned McCovey being left-handed. Mays and McCovey played their home games at Candlestick Park, which was a notorious "pitcher's park" mostly because of the cold, and the winds blowing in from left-field. In fact, Mays completely changed his swing when the team moved from New York to San Francisco. He still hit 24 jacks at home that season, but it was a remarkable testament to his power. McCovey actually enjoyed a small advantage at CandleStick because the winds would tend to blow out towards the right field power alley. He hit 22 of his 39 HRs at home.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Williams was arguably the greatest hitter of all-time. I'm sure you are aware of it, but he basically missed about 5 seasons, in his prime, due to military service. Conservatively, it probably cost him 150 HRs, and maybe as much as 200.

And talk about a "what if season"...

After he returned from the Korean War in August of 1953, he played in only 37 games, and batted .407, with 13 HRs in only 91 ABs (and 110 PAs.) Had he played a full season, and his stats would have projected out to not only the last .400+ season, but likely 65 HRs.

A couple of fascinating stories about Williams...

Going into the last day of the 1941 season, he was batting .3996, which, rounded off, was .400. The Red Sox had a meaningless double-header, so his manager asked Williams if he would just like to sit out. Williams responded that there were fans there that came to see him play, so he would play. He went 6-8, and finished at .406. (As a sidenote...Mark McGuire sat out the last game of the 1991 season to avoid dropping below .201.)

Most everyone knows that Joe DiMaggio set the consecutive hit streak at 56 games in 1941, but most probably don't know that during that same streak, Williams outhit DiMaggio.

And finally, at age 41, Williams announced his retirement before the start of the 1960 season. In that season, he batted .316 with 29 HRs (in 310 ABs...and 390 PAs.) And in his very last at bat, he slugged a HR.

Williams is my personal #1 hitter, I don't think there was another player who could equal him in terms of the complete hitting package. I already knew everything listed there but it always amazes me whenever I read it again, those are some of the more frequently cited testaments to his greatness.

His career OBP is mind-boggling, .481. 48.1% of the time he safely made it to first. 48.1%. League average today is something like 31.7%. League average across his career was around 33%, and the years that he missed featured average OBPs that were among the lowest across the period. He truly was the greatest hitter who ever lived.

[LAZERUSS]

Babe Ruth had 347 HR at home, and 367 on the road

He was also not just destroying every individual, but hitting more HR than most entire teams on multiple occasions. If the ball was really live, almost everyone else must have sucked

As dominant as Ruth was...it was mainly because he was a pioneer. In 1920 he slugged 54 HRs. The next best TEAM in the AL, hit 50...combined (Philadelphia did hit 64 in the NL, though.)

However, it didn't take long for the gap to close. In 1922, Rogers Hornsby hit 42 (and Ken Williams led the AL at 39.) In 1927, Ruth hit 60, and teammate Lou Gehrig hit 47. By the 30's Ruth's record was being challenged. Jimmy Foxx hit 58 in 1932, and Hank Greenberg also hit 58 in 1938.

[LAZERUSS]

Williams is my personal #1 hitter, I don't think there was another player who could equal him in terms of the complete hitting package. I already knew everything listed there but it always amazes me whenever I read it again, those are some of the more frequently cited testaments to his greatness.

His career OBP is mind-boggling, .481. 48.1% of the time he safely made it to first. 48.1%. League average today is something like 31.7%. League average across his career was around 33%, and the years that he missed featured average OBPs that were among the lowest across the period. He truly was the greatest hitter who ever lived.

Mine too.

:cheers:

[LAZERUSS]

Pedro, at one point, led the league in ERA by over 100 points. That's unfathomable. This is despite playing in a hitters park.

At the height of the steroid era, with run and homer rates at their highest since the 30's, he posted a sub-2.00 ERA. and just as early as 10 years ago, at the age of 34, he was a cy young candidate and put up a 2.82 ERA.

I think he'd be a STUD if he pitched today.

In 2000, Pedro had an ERA of 1.74, in a league that had an overall ERA of 4.91. Roger Clemens was next best at 3.70.

I would argue that Pedro's '99 and '00 season have legitimate cases as the greatest seasons ever. Oh, and Greg Maddux's '94 and '95 seasons are right there, as well.

[LAZERUSS]

You're like my grandpa. You're very knowledgable but you stopped respecting the game, both basketball and now baseball I guess, a while ago.

The athletes in your time weren't better than ours. Nor are ours necessarily better than yours. Understand that people who don't respect what happened before our time aren't worth arguing with. The average age of regular posters here is FAR below 30.

It just irks me that you are so adamant that Nolan Ryan, for instance, is better than what we have.

Kershaw against hitters in the 70s and 80s would be stupid.

Maybe it boils down to you respecting the players but not respecting the people you talk about the players with. And that's fair. But anyone with a brain knows that Nolan Ryan was a godsend. So don't be so angry when retards don't understand that.

I never claimed that "Nolan Ryan was better than what we have." I merely pointed out that he was arguably the hardest-throwing pitcher of all-time.

FWIW, I would take a peak Greg Maddux, who could barely reach 90 on the gun, over a peak Ryan any day of the week.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

I never claimed that "Nolan Ryan was better than what we have." I merely pointed out that he was arguably the hardest-throwing pitcher of all-time.

FWIW, I would take a peak Greg Maddux, who could barely reach 90 on the gun, over a peak Ryan any day of the week.

:applause:

[JebronLames]

In 2000, Pedro had an ERA of 1.74, in a league that had an overall ERA of 4.91. Roger Clemens was next best at 3.70.

I would argue that Pedro's '99 and '00 season have legitimate cases as the greatest seasons ever. Oh, and Greg Maddux's '94 and '95 seasons are right there, as well.
Pedro also had a 0.74 WHIP with 11.7 WAR in 2000. That was the GOAT season.

[LAZERUSS]

You're like my grandpa. You're very knowledgable but you stopped respecting the game, both basketball and now baseball I guess, a while ago.

The athletes in your time weren't better than ours. Nor are ours necessarily better than yours. Understand that people who don't respect what happened before our time aren't worth arguing with. The average age of regular posters here is FAR below 30.

It just irks me that you are so adamant that Nolan Ryan, for instance, is better than what we have.

Kershaw against hitters in the 70s and 80s would be stupid.

Maybe it boils down to you respecting the players but not respecting the people you talk about the players with. And that's fair. But anyone with a brain knows that Nolan Ryan was a godsend. So don't be so angry when retards don't understand that.

My All-Time NBA List...

1. Wilt
2. MJ
3. Magic
4. Kareem
5. Russell
6. Shaq
7. Duncan
8. Kobe
9. Lebron
10. Bird
11. Moses
12. Hakeem
13. Dr. J

And to be honest, the Top-5 are very close, as are Shaq and Duncan at 6-7, and then the group at 8-13 is also interchangeable.

Take a close look at that list...

Players from EVERY decade (at least '60 on...albeit, Russell played a little a few years in the 50's, and Wilt started his career in 1959.)

[LAZERUSS]

Pedro also had a 0.74 WHIP with 11.7 WAR in 2000. That was the GOAT season.

I had the mis-fortune to have watched Sandy Koufax dominate in the 60's. He had some great WAR seasons, as well, but IMHO, no other pitcher meant more to a team, than Koufax (some might argue Carlton in '72.) Why do I say that? He led the Dodgers to a WS championship in '63. Then, he missed about a third of the season in '64 (and still went 19-5), and without him, LA finished in 7th. He led them to a WS title in '65 (almost single-handedly BTW...more in a moment.) He then led them to a pennant in '66. He retired after that season, and the Dodgers fell to 8th.

The current baseball fans marveled at Bumgarner's WS performance last season, but how about Koufax's in 1965? In game five, on October 11th, he threw a CG ShO, allowing just 4 hits. He came back in game seven, on October 14th (on TWO DAYS REST), and threw ANOTHER CG ShO, this time a 3-hitter. BTW, that Twins team had the most powerful lineup in the AL in the 60's.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

I think that part of Pedro's case for MDE is the era in which he played. His 2000 year, possibly the greatest single season in MLB history, came in a season where league average ERA was 4.77.

His run from 1997-2003 may be the most dominant stretch in league history, his numbers are inhuman considering the era he was pitching in.

[ShawkFactory]

My All-Time NBA List...

1. Wilt
2. MJ
3. Magic
4. Kareem
5. Russell
6. Shaq
7. Duncan
8. Kobe
9. Lebron
10. Bird
11. Moses
12. Hakeem
13. Dr. J

And to be honest, the Top-5 are very close, as are Shaq and Duncan at 6-7, and then the group at 8-13 is also interchangeable.

Take a close look at that list...

Players from EVERY decade (at least '60 on...albeit, Russell played a little a few years in the 50's, and Wilt started his career in 1959.)
Bird is too low you **********.

[Sarcastic]

Babe Ruth is the best hitter of all time, and it's not really even close. He leads pretty much every advanced statistic you can think of, and by a decent margin.

There's a book every baseball fan should read called "The Year Babe Ruth hit 104 Home Runs". It was calculated that if he played in modern size ball parks with modern rules, the balls he hit in 1921 would have led to 104 home runs. Keep in mind that back then, if you hit the foul pole, it was actually a foul ball. And the ball parks back then were absolutely cavernous, with 500 foot center fields. Nothing like the tiny band boxes that they play in nowadays.




Oh yea, he also won 94 games as a pitcher, with only 46 losses and a 2.28 ERA.