i know scoring isn't the only part of the game. but its a major part of the game

[kennethgriffin]

Kobe Bryant:
30+ point games: 425
40+ point games: 119
50+ point games: 24
60+ point games: 5
70+ point games: 1
80+ point games: 1



Tim Duncan:
30+ point games: 120
40+ point games: 5
50+ point games: 1
60+ point games: 0
70+ point games: 0
80+ point games: 0



a) Kobe has basically as many 40 point games as Duncan has 30 point games

b) Kobe has as many 60 point games as Duncan has 40 point games

c) Kobe has as many 80 point games as Duncan has 50 point games

d) Kobes 2 quarter record ( 55 ) is better than Duncans career high ( 53 )

e) Kobe has nearly as many consecutive 50+ point games ( 4 ) as Duncan has total 40+ point games in his career ( 5 )

f) Kobe has more consecutive 40+ point games ( 9 ) than Duncan has total 40+ point games in his entire lifespan ( 5 )





and before this thread turns into a sh*t storm of redundant back and forth crap. let me take care of everything with quotes




people wanna say "what about rebounds" ... but duncan is 7 feet tall and plays F/C ... same reason kobe has the assist advantage playing 2guard... and do rebounds make kareem/russell better than jordan? no


people wanna say "what about defense" ... but

Kobe Bryant = 9 time first team all defense ( can make G/G )
Tim Duncan = 8 time first team all defense ( can make F/F/C ... had 17 more chances to make it )


people wanna say "duncans team is more consistant"

but Kobe is 4-2 career playoff series record vs Tim Duncan ( and its easy to be consistent when you have a HOF goat coach for all 18 years and never have a team without a legendary sidekick + other allstars )


people wanna say "duncan has 1 more mvp"

Tim Duncan and Steve Nash = 2
Kobe Bryant and Derrick Rose = 1

so it doesn't tell the whole story does it


people wanna say "duncan has 1 more fmvp"

duncan has more finals mvps than kareem abdul jabbar.. do people wanna say duncan is better than the arguable goat KAJ? nope

besides. we know who did what

Duncan: (P/R/A)
1999 - 23/11/2 ( With HOF Robinson )
2003 - 24/15/5 ( with HOF Robinspn/Parker )
2005 - 23/12/2 ( with HOF Parker/Ginobili )
2007 - 22/11/3 ( with HOF Parker/Ginobili )
2014 - 16/9/2 ( with HOF Parker/Ginobili and FMVP Leonard )

Kobe: (P/R/A)
2000 - 21/5/5 ( with HOF Shaq )
2001 - 29/7/6 ( with HOF shaq )
2002 - 27/6/5 ( with HOF shaq )
2009 - 30/5/5 ( with HOF pau )
2010 - 30/6/5 ( with HOF pau )




people wanna say duncan was better during their primes

"i think hes the most talented player on both ends of the floor" - Gregg Popovich 2005 ( referring to Kobe Bryant )



people wanna say duncan is obvious choice for better player

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/post/_/id/11090247/all-nba-players

nope. kobe 7th, duncan 9th




Kobe won tnt, sporting news, dime athlete of the decade.. not duncan

kobe would not lose finals mvps to rookies

kobe would not be a lower ranked player than manu, parker or kawhi on any championship team.





now forget all the quoted stuff and focus on the new shocking evidence i've unearthed

[dubeta]

45% shooting = invalid

you lose another thread

[Marchesk]

Wilt Chamberlain

[kennethgriffin]

Wilt Chamberlain

i'm comparing 2 players from the same era/timeline


sh*t even lame a** duncan woulda dropped 85-90 in a game back in the 60s


back on topic

[BlakFrankWhite]

then Westbrook's the best player in the world.

[warriorfan]

I know defense isn't the only part of the game, but it's a major part of the game.



Tim Duncan > Kobe Bryant, there is no argument.

[kennethgriffin]

then Westbrook's the best player in the world.


right now? yeah probably...


its arguable for sure


and my post isnt to show minor advantages like westrbook has over the next in line currently in scoring

this kobe/duncan discrepancy is basically like comparing the worlds largest c*ck to an aborted fetus's pinky finger

[T_L_P]

Way too much to go into, but this one made me giggle:


people wanna say "what about defense" ... but

Kobe Bryant = 9 time first team all defense ( can make G/G )
Tim Duncan = 8 time first team all defense ( can make F/F/C ... had 17 more chances to make it )

So to you Kobe is a better defender, even if you want to contextualise it by position? :roll:

[kennethgriffin]

I know defense isn't the only part of the game, but it's a major part of the game.



Tim Duncan > Kobe Bryant, there is no argument.

people wanna say "what about defense" ... but

Kobe Bryant = 9 time first team all defense ( can make G/G )
Tim Duncan = 8 time first team all defense ( can make F/F/C ... had 17 more chances to make it )


in OP

already addressed

[kennethgriffin]

Way too much to go into, but this one made me giggle:



So to you Kobe is a better defender, even if you want to contextualise it by position? :roll:


17 more chances to make defensive 1st team and still ends up with less?

you can discount 1 or 2 of kobes 1st teams all you want. if kobe has an extra spot to make it every year he gets those 2 back real quick

[T_L_P]

17 more chances to make defensive 1st team and still ends up with less?

you can discount 1 or 2 of kobes 1st teams all you want. if kobe has an extra spot to make it every year he gets those 2 back real quick

Avoiding the question, as per usual.

Is Kobe a better defender? Not a more/less accomplished one, a better one? You know you can't answer because it contradicts your entire point. :oldlol:

[kennethgriffin]

kobe made 3 defensive 2nd teams to go along with his 9 first team awards

imagine if he had a 3rd chance to make 1st team like duncan had every year... those 3 defensive 2nd teams probably turn into 1st teams

then kobe has 12 first team awards instead of 9

[kennethgriffin]

Avoiding the question, as per usual.

Is Kobe a better defender? Not a more/less accomplished one, a better one? You know you can't answer because it contradicts your entire point. :oldlol:


its impossible to compare the way both play defense


all that can be measured is how accomplished they are

and its easier to play defense as a big later into your career

you can say duncans better at guarding the inside. and kobes better at guarding the outside

taller guys are more capable of blocks. and have many more opportunities since its bad defense to go for a block on a jump shooter


all i'm saying is... kobes more accomplished. and by duncan standards for 1st team awards kobe has 12 legit 1st team all defenses to duncans 8

[J Shuttlesworth]

[QUOTE]

[warriorfan]

kobe made 3 defensive 2nd teams to go along with his 9 first team awards

imagine if he had a 3rd chance to make 1st team like duncan had every year... those 3 defensive 2nd teams probably turn into 1st teams

then kobe has 12 first team awards instead of 9



Good defense from your front court is a lot more valuable then good defense from your back court.

[Smoke117]

http://i.minus.com/igRabjW7Fg9Ff.gif

[kennethgriffin]

people wanna ignore my OP and the new evidence i presented.. theyre all trying to hijack my thread and turn it into a defense discussion

to somehow prove duncan might slightly be above kobe at something


well thats opinion. i have facts


and even if i was somehow wrong. that still doesnt explain why kobe is leaps and bounds sh*tting on duncan in terms of a ridiculous amount more of 30,40 point games

i mean.. to do that it doesnt even take someone to chuck a bunch. just be effective and you can get 30,40 on a good night

duncan is so damn futile when comparing the other side of the game. which is why his supporters tend to try and switch the subject

theres no excuse for someone having more 40 point games than a person has 30 point games... especially when the guy i'm talking about said this


"i thought it was a mistake actually, i saw 81 and i was like nah thats not right. i thought it was a typo definitely a typo. but i was amazed. people dont even give the 60 points the credit it deserves. or how hard it is to score 40. that doesnt get the credit it deserves. but to hear someone do 81 is above and beyond anything i could ever imagine." - Tim Duncan


so its not like duncan is oblivious to the idea.. he understands the concept and how hard it is..

he appreciates it... but his fans dont.

[dubeta]

Say what yoy want about Kobe, but at the end of the day he's a 2/5 in FMVP's


Think about it a 2/5, that's what his career amounts to


How can you defend him?

[kennethgriffin]

Good defense from your front court is a lot more valuable then good defense from your back court.


funny because i heard the big man position was so bad the got rid of it on the ASG ballot



but yes. inside defense is important. but it takes less effort/mobility/speed to accomplish. and allot of it is due to just playing in the right position. rotating a few feet/holding your ground and putting a hand up

the real skills/footwork/ability is the perimeter defenders

especially since they took away handchecking from the outside but let bigs dig their elbows into peoples backs still on the inside.. so one gets away with allot more as a big than a guard

for kobe to stay out of foul trouble. he has to be smarter than a tim duncan. he has to be better than a tim duncan

pure and simple

[kennethgriffin]

Say what yoy want about Kobe, but at the end of the day he's a 2/5 in FMVP's


Think about it a 2/5, that's what his career amounts to


How can you defend him?


that ratio sounds familiar

[dubeta]

that ratio sounds familiar

Kobe's Finals FG%, how ironic :applause:

[kennethgriffin]

Kobe's Finals FG%, how ironic :applause:


no i was referring to lebrons finals record and percentage of scalp covered by hair growth

[DonDadda59]

Kobe at 36 has half as many (2) scoring titles as Durant at 26 (4). He also has half as many as little ass Iverson. That's major.

[Marchesk]

people wanna ignore my OP and the new evidence i presented.. theyre all trying to hijack my thread and turn it into a defense discussion

http://celticfanchat.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/bill_russell_nba_champion.jpg

[kennethgriffin]

Kobe at 36 has half as many (2) scoring titles as Durant at 26 (4). He also has half as many as little ass Iverson. That's major.


kobe willingly gifted durant the scoring title one year by skipping the last game of the season

and theyre mostly relative to the individual season and the competition faced

for instance.. a player won a scoring title averaging like 25ppg before.. but another guy lost a scoring title averaging like 37ppg or something


while duncan and kobe basically faced the same competition equally throughout their careers. which is why its a comparable statistic

[kennethgriffin]

http://celticfanchat.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/bill_russell_nba_champion.jpg


you're only proving my dominance by spamming large pictures in hopes of derailing the thread

this boosts my ego tremendously. as if it could get any bigger

thankyou

:cheers:

[pauk]

I think Kobe was somewhat of a better individual player, more prominent individually.... Duncan is right about there tho and has way to much accolades to be ignored, accolades (especially team accolades) is what is holding him up mostly, a la Bill Russell (although Duncan was better individually i think).... i said it a couple of times before i think ive seen at least 20 players who were better individual talents than Duncan...

[DonDadda59]

kobe willingly gifted durant the scoring title one year by skipping the last game of the season

Then that would've given Bean a grand total of 3, which would be the same as KD... who is 10 years younger.


while duncan and kobe basically faced the same competition equally throughout their careers. which is why its a comparable statistic

Kobe became the #1 option on the Lakers in 2005, Kevin Durant was drafted in 2007. By 2014, Kobe had 2 scoring titles, Kevin Durant had 4. As the #1 options, they both faced the same competition, defense, etc and the Slim Reaper has doubled up Bean in scoring titles in that time frame.

Bean and AI were both drafted at the same time... and again, Bean's scoring title count was doubled in the same era/time frame.

[kennethgriffin]

Then that would've given Bean a grand total of 3, which would be the same as KD... who is 10 years younger.



Kobe became the #1 option on the Lakers in 2005, Kevin Durant was drafted in 2007. By 2014, Kobe had 2 scoring titles, Kevin Durant had 4. As the #1 options, they both faced the same competition, defense, etc and the Slim Reaper has doubled up Bean in scoring titles in that time frame.

Bean and AI were both drafted at the same time... and again, Bean's scoring title count was doubled in the same era/time frame.
durants a legendary scorer

i dont understand what this has to do with kobe and duncan

durant could go down as the greatest scorer of all time


but it wont be judged on just scoring titles.. kobes career is built on much more than whats in my OP

i'm just saying its a funny comparison and worth looking at for a chuckle



but just to address the durant thing. its stupid to compare scoring titles from different eras. especially when kobes era had many more explosive legendary scorers than todays crop

[DonDadda59]

but just to address the durant thing. its stupid to compare scoring titles from different eras. especially when kobes era had many more explosive legendary scorers than todays crop

How is it 'different eras'? :confusedshrug:

Again, Kobe became the #1 option on his team in 2005, KD was drafted in 2007. Like you pointed out, one of KD's scoring titles came down to the wire between him and Bean. They were doing their thing at the same general time, competing with each other for scoring titles.

And in the end, Durant has 4 (like Iverson before him), Kobe has 2.

[kennethgriffin]

put prime tmac/iverson/kobe all in todays league. see how many scoring titles durant wins

[warriorfan]

Dadda delivering some poison here

[dubeta]

This thread tells you everything you need to know about all-time rankings :cheers:

Factual, insightful, and clearly explains the process.


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=370905

[kennethgriffin]

How is it 'different eras'? :confusedshrug:




lol really?

[kennethgriffin]

This thread tells you everything you need to know about all-time rankings :cheers:

Factual, insightful, and clearly explains the process.


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=370905


except they didnt have finals mvps back when russell played. and the media changed the criteria for season mvp back when they took over in the early 80's

so ... i doubt we can purely justify anything off what skip bayless and friends think..

espn isnt the end all be all for ranking players. their awards presented by car companies are a nice gesture. but the way to rank players? no


since according to the mvp+fmvp method. you'd have to rank moses malone ahead of kobe bryant/oscar robertson

or rank steve nash ahead of jerry west

and rank lebron james ahead of bill russell

derrick rose > elgin baylor?


:facepalm


so i'd have to give your criteria an F for f*ggot

[ImKobe]

http://replygif.net/i/95.gif

[dubeta]

except they didnt have finals mvps back when russell played. and the media changed the criteria for season mvp back when they took over in the early 80's

so ... i doubt we can purely justify anything off what skip bayless and friends think..

espn isnt the end all be all for ranking players. their awards presented by car companies are a nice gesture. but the way to rank players? no


since according to the mvp+fmvp method. you'd have to rank moses malone ahead of kobe bryant/oscar robertson

or rank steve nash ahead of jerry west

and rank lebron james ahead of bill russell

derrick rose > elgin baylor?


:facepalm


so i'd have to give your criteria an F for f*ggot

I said at least 1 of each you illiterate mouth-breathing baffoon

You fit the perfect description of a kobe stan


And I already explained why Russells rings were invalid in this thread

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=370813


Kobe = Top 15 all time not top 10

[kennethgriffin]

I said at least 1 of each you illiterate mouth-breathing baffoon

You fit the perfect description of a kobe stan


And I already explained why Russells rings were invalid in this thread

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=370813


Kobe = Top 15 all time not top 10


so youre admitting your formula is flawed and cherry picked to include/discount anything that doesnt form fit to your agenda

i see

so i was right in awarding the first letter in your name ...f*aggot

[ImKobe]

so youre admitting your formula is flawed and cherry picked to include/discount anything that doesnt form fit to your agenda

i see

so i was right in awarding the first letter in your name ...f*aggot
:roll: :roll:

[dubeta]

so youre admitting your formula is flawed and cherry picked to include/discount anything that doesnt form fit to your agenda

i see

so i was right in awarding the first letter in your name ...f*aggot

How is it flawed? combination of some FMVPs + MVPs not counting 60's

Definitely creates a more accurate list that whatever you can come up with


Thats the thing, you cannot bring a simple all-time formula to create the list, thats a very kobe stan thinking mindset where Kobe 81 points = GOAT rational applies. There are exceptions, and criterias, but it creates a solid list

Kobe = top 15 all time not top 10

[NZStreetBaller]

Kobe has proven that when he has a good and healthy team (so exclude 2013) around him he wins championships 5/7 times.

Tim on the other hand has had a great team and one of the greatest choaches of all time for the vast majority of his career (including his prime) and only managed to tie kobe.

scoring is important. If kobe had a good team during his prime scoring years he would have 6 titles atleast

[ImKobe]

Kobe has proven that when he has a good and healthy team (so exclude 2013) around him he wins championships 5/7 times.

Tim on the other hand has had a great team and one of the greatest choaches of all time for the vast majority of his career (including his prime) and only managed to tie kobe.

scoring is important. If kobe had a good team during his prime scoring years he would have 6 titles atleast
:applause:

[kennethgriffin]

How is it flawed? combination of some FMVPs + MVPs not counting 60's

Definitely creates a more accurate list that whatever you can come up with


Thats the thing, you cannot bring a simple all-time formula to create the list, thats a very kobe stan thinking mindset where Kobe 81 points = GOAT rational applies. There are exceptions, and criterias, but it creates a solid list

Kobe = top 15 all time not top 10


you should have been more calculated in your biased agenda to include kobe barely in the top 10 while lifting lebron and/or duncan slightly ahead of him. instead you vaulted lebron way to high and kobe way too low. making it look completely moronic and troll based. youre just exposing yourself at that point and giving away too much. but then again... that is your persona on ISH. the overly blatant troll. the one that doesnt even try hiding it. which is sorta amateur IMO especially since it portrays the oblivious aspect where you boldly refute the evidence and pretend to be straight up. its a gimmick that surely would have been banned permanently on any respectable forum. luckily for you and me this place is a sh*t hole


keep trying though. one day people might actually notice you

[dubeta]

you should have been more calculated in your biased agenda to include kobe barely in the top 10 while lifting lebron and/or duncan slightly ahead of him. instead you vaulted lebron way to high and kobe way too low. making it look completely moronic and troll based. youre just exposing yourself at that point and giving away too much. but then again... that is your persona on ISH. the overly blatant troll. the one that doesnt even try hiding it. which is sorta amateur IMO especially since it portrays the oblivious aspect where you boldly refute the evidence and pretend to be straight up. its a gimmick that surely would have been banned permanently on any respectable forum. luckily for you and me this place is a sh*t hole


keep trying though. one day people might actually notice you


touched a nerve? :oldlol:


Kobe isnt top 10 all time, maybe top 15

I'll just leave this


http://www.quickmeme.com/img/cd/cdb310ad67072458a3390322c315849d700d58692c606c2905 f09b8c167cfdb1.jpg

[ImKobe]

https://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/undertaker-sitting-up44.gif

[kennethgriffin]

touched a nerve? :oldlol:


Kobe isnt top 10 all time, maybe top 15

I'll just leave this


http://www.quickmeme.com/img/cd/cdb310ad67072458a3390322c315849d700d58692c606c2905 f09b8c167cfdb1.jpg
1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 27.70
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Chris Paul 25.50
7. Bob Pettit* 25.35
8. Dwyane Wade 25.14
9. Neil Johnston* 24.69
10. Kevin Durant 24.67
11. Charles Barkley* 24.63
12. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58
13. Tim Duncan 24.45
14. Magic Johnson* 24.11
15. Karl Malone* 23.90
16. Hakeem Olajuwon* 23.59
17. Julius Erving* 23.58
18. Larry Bird* 23.50
19. Dirk Nowitzki 23.31
20. Kobe Bryant 23.22
21. Oscar Robertson* 23.17
22. Yao Ming 23.02
23. Jerry West* 22.89
24. Kevin Garnett 22.77
25. Elgin Baylor* 22.69
26. Tracy McGrady 22.13
27. Moses Malone* 22.00
28. Dolph Schayes* 21.98
29. Russell Westbrook 21.96
30. Amar'e Stoudemire 21.95
31. Dwight Howard 21.95
32. John Stockton* 21.83
33. Bob Lanier* 21.69
34. Dominique Wilkins* 21.56
35. Clyde Lovellette* 21.55
36. Pau Gasol 21.55
37. Adrian Dantley* 21.51
38. Harry Gallatin* 21.48
39. Artis Gilmore* 21.40
40. George Gervin* 21.38
41. Dan Issel* 21.37
42. Alonzo Mourning* 21.24
43. Carmelo Anthony 21.19
44. Manu Ginobili 21.18
45. Clyde Drexler* 21.07
46. Rick Barry* 21.04
47. Patrick Ewing* 21.01
48. Chris Webber 20.94
49. Allen Iverson 20.92
50. Al Jefferson 20.79
51. John Drew 20.74
52. Bob McAdoo* 20.73
53. Kevin Johnson 20.70
54. Elton Brand 20.62
55. Chris Bosh 20.58
56. George Yardley* 20.51
57. Ed Macauley* 20.39
58. LaMarcus Aldridge 20.20
59. Paul Pierce 20.20
60. Larry Foust 20.19
61. Marques Johnson 20.11
62. John Brisker 20.11
63. Mel Daniels* 20.08
64. George McGinnis 20.05
65. Billy Cunningham* 20.04
66. Kevin McHale* 20.02
67. Steve Nash 19.95
68. Larry Nance 19.92
69. David Thompson* 19.91
70. Connie Hawkins* 19.89
71. Alex English* 19.87
72. Walt Bellamy* 19.84
73. Vince Carter 19.83
74. Cliff Hagan* 19.80
75. Bob Cousy* 19.76
76. Terrell Brandon 19.69
77. Paul Arizin* 19.66
78. Mark Price 19.62
79. John Beasley 19.59
80. Zach Randolph 19.58
81. Gilbert Arenas 19.57
82. Carlos Boozer 19.49
83. Sam Cassell 19.48
84. Michael Redd 19.48
85. Paul Westphal 19.43
86. Robert Parish* 19.22
87. David Lee 19.21
88. Bernard King* 19.18
89. Walt Frazier* 19.12
90. Bailey Howell* 19.11
91. Shawn Kemp 19.08
92. Walter Davis 19.07
93. Spencer Haywood 19.07
94. Grant Hill 19.03
95. Paul Millsap 19.02
96. Mark Aguirre 19.02
97. Shareef Abdur-Rahim 19.02
98. Al Horford 19.02
99. Tony Parker 18.94
100. Gary Payton* 18.88
101. Bill Russell* 18.87



seems legit

[NZStreetBaller]

i thought this thread was about tim vs kobe.

Timmys great and all but the guy lost fmvps to tony parker and kawhi ffs. the most dominant center of all time and top 10 player shaq is the only man who could take the fmvp from kobe. and its not like it was a prime kobe either....

Sooo.... kenneth and dubeta? Whos next between u two to get banned??

[kennethgriffin]

i thought this thread was about tim vs kobe.

Timmys great and all but the guy lost fmvps to tony parker and kawhi ffs. the most dominant center of all time and top 10 player shaq is the only man who could take the fmvp from kobe. and its not like it was a prime kobe either....

Sooo.... kenneth and dubeta? Whos next between u two to get banned??


like i give a f*ck. i posted prolapsed anus gifs 2 weeks ago

[DonDadda59]

lol really?

Really. Are you telling me Bean is an era specific player? Come to think of it, he never did win a scoring title or go on his scoring outburts until after the rule changes. Weird.

Jordan for example won 10 scoring titles in the 80s competing with the likes of Dominique and Bird and was doing the same in his mid 30s against the Shaqs and Robinsons in the 90s.

But Bean could only win post 2006, pre 2010? :confusedshrug:

[T_L_P]

Kobe has proven that when he has a good and healthy team (so exclude 2013) around him he wins championships 5/7 times.

Tim on the other hand has had a great team and one of the greatest choaches of all time for the vast majority of his career (including his prime) and only managed to tie kobe.

scoring is important. If kobe had a good team during his prime scoring years he would have 6 titles atleast

The Lakers were the favourites in 99 and 03, and they had 4 All-Stars in 98. Yeah, let's totally forget those years. :facepalm

[kennethgriffin]

Really. Are you telling me Bean is an era specific player? Come to think of it, he never did win a scoring title or go on his scoring outburts until after the rule changes. Weird.

Jordan for example won scoring titles in the 80s competing with the likes of Dominique and Bird and was doing the same in his mid 30s against the Shaqs and Robinsons of that time.

But Bean could only win post 2006, pre 2010? :confusedshrug:


scoring titles are season specific .. forget era specific ( which they are )

thats all i'm saying

a guy could win 10 scoring titles and not average over 30 his entire career... then a guy could average 30+ 5 times and never win a scoring title

[Marchesk]

like i give a f*ck. i posted prolapsed anus gifs 2 weeks ago

I can't imagine how you're back. That was disgusting shit, brah.

[DonDadda59]

scoring titles are season specific .. forget era specific ( which they are )

thats all i'm saying

a guy could win 10 scoring titles and not average over 30 his entire career... then a guy could average 30+ 5 times and never win a scoring title

So Bean was only the best scorer in the league specifically for 2 seasons out of his 19 season career? :confusedshrug:

[NZStreetBaller]

The Lakers were the favourites in 99 and 03, and they had 4 All-Stars in 98. Yeah, let's totally forget those years. :facepalm

If they had a prime kobe in 98 it'd be in the bag. He was only a rookie at that stage

[kennethgriffin]

The Lakers were the favourites in 99 and 03, and they had 4 All-Stars in 98. Yeah, let's totally forget those years. :facepalm

lol wut


i think samaki walker was the lakers 3rd best player in 2003, kobe torn shoulder/knee and shaq injured toe+350 pounds. and the lakers were 50-32 ( 7th best record )

as for 1999.. lakers were tied for the 9th best record at 31-19 lol

wtf is this guy on?

[NZStreetBaller]

like i give a f*ck. i posted prolapsed anus gifs 2 weeks ago

#thuglife

[kennethgriffin]

I can't imagine how you're back. That was disgusting shit, brah.

i think they enjoy banning me every month. and they knew i wanted a perma ban. so they didnt give me one to spite me ... something along those lines.

i dunno i'm going to bed. its like 4:30 in the morning

[T_L_P]

If they had a prime kobe in 98 it'd be in the bag. He was only a rookie at that stage

What does that have to do with what you said? You said a team with Kobe on it was good enough to win it 7 times....you said Duncan's teams were always good enough to win it, regardless of whether he was in his prime or not.

Why would it be different for Kobe? Also, he was in his 2nd year, and he made the All-Star team. If Kobe stans like kenneth are gonna regurgitate (x amount of All-Star appearances), he needs to be held up to that, otherwise they are admitting it was a fraudulent appearance.

[DonDadda59]

If they had a prime kobe in 98 it'd be in the bag. He was only a rookie at that stage

'98 Kobe was an all star and leading bench scorer in the league. He was averaging more PPG than Duncan today. Lakers had 4 all stars that season. The Jazz wiped their ass with them.

[NZStreetBaller]

What does that have to do with what you said? You said a team with Kobe on it was good enough to win it 7 times....you said Duncan's teams were always good enough to win it, regardless of whether he was in his prime or not.

Why would it be different for Kobe? Also, he was in his 2nd year, and he made the All-Star team. If Kobe stans like kenneth are gonna regurgitate (x amount of All-Star appearances), he needs to be held up to that, otherwise they are admitting it was a fraudulent appearance.

I said he proved that with a good team around him he has proven to win it 5/7times not 7 times lol. And i also said a PRIME kobe wud win atleast 6. Ur talking about rookie kobe.

[NZStreetBaller]

'98 Kobe was an all star and leading bench scorer in the league. He was averaging more PPG than Duncan today. Lakers had 4 all stars that season. The Jazz wiped their ass with them.

Is that the same jazz with the 2nd time all scoring malone and the unbreakable assist record who made it to the finals ???

[ImKobe]

lol wut


i think samaki walker was the lakers 3rd best player in 2003, kobe torn shoulder/knee and shaq injured toe+350 pounds. and the lakers were 50-32 ( 7th best record )

as for 1999.. lakers were tied for the 9th best record at 31-19 lol

wtf is this guy on?

Lakers in 03 were ranked 19th defensively and Kobe played his ass off in the regular season for them to even scrape 50 wins that year, they were obviously still considered a contender because they had just won the previous 3 years but no HCA and Derek Fisher being our 3rd best player....no bench...

Duncan had Parker, Manu, Bowen, S-Jax, Speedy, Robinson

Kobe had Shaq, D-Fish, Horry (0-18 from 3 that series), Shaw (3-15 from 3 that series), Slava fricken Medvedenko

Kobe and Shaq ultimately wasn't enough to win against the Spurs that shot 35/74 from 3 that series (47,9%)

Did you know that Bruce Bowen shot 17/26 (65%) from deep that series?

[T_L_P]

kenneth in one thread: if you're well enough to play injury is no excuse (talking about Wade last year)

same thread: number of All-Stars dictates strength of squad (14 Heat having 4 All-Stars)

98 Lakers actually had 4, 03 Lakers had 2 (to the Spurs' 1).

Dude shifts the goalposts on the daily. :facepalm

At least remain consistent.

[DonDadda59]

Is that the same jazz with the 2nd time all scoring malone and the unbreakable assist record who made it to the finals ???

Yes. Same Jazz. What is your point? :confusedshrug:

[ImKobe]

kenneth in one thread: if you're well enough to play injury is no excuse (talking about Wade last year)

same thread: number of All-Stars dictates strength of squad (14 Heat having 4 All-Stars)

98 Lakers actually had 4, 03 Lakers had 2 (to the Spurs' 1).

Dude shifts the goalposts on the daily. :facepalm

At least remain consistent.

Duncan had more help than Shaq/Kobe did that year...fact.

[NZStreetBaller]

Yes. Same Jazz. What is your point? :confusedshrug:

well thats was a pretty monster team .... plus like i said 5/7 times. ur still acting like i said 100% success rate with all stars

[T_L_P]

Duncan had more help than Shaq/Kobe did that year...fact.

03 Fisher in the postseason: 13/3/2/2 on .685 TS% (Playoff leader), 3.2 BPM

Lakers 3rd best player

03 Parker: 15/3/3/1 on .468 TS%, -1.8 BPM

Spurs 3rd best player

Yet you talk about 03 Parker as if he was basically an All-Star (remember that thread where you said he was great player because of two closeout games against LA, as if that's what he did throughout the run?) Whereas 03 Fisher is a scrub. Hilarious. :oldlol:

[NZStreetBaller]

Duncan shaq lebron mj magic johnson all had all stars in their team in their primes

kobes best scoring was when he had nothing. Give kobe 2 all stars from his prime (lets say nash and amare both ringless by the way) and hes got more rings then all those guys. Including duncan.

[T_L_P]

Here's 06 Kobe dragging his team through the Playoffs...

Lakers were -9 with him on the floor
They were a +8 with him off it

Here's Duncan's great 01 help...

+5 with him on the floor,
-34 with him off it

You wanna what the worst Net Rating a Kobe team had with him off the floor? -17

Shaq? -21

LeBron? -25

People will look at a list of names and make their minds up from there though (people like ImKobe claiming 03 Parker was anything less than dogshit).

Spurs were a whole 18 points better when Parker went to the bench. :oldlol:

[NZStreetBaller]

Somewhat related note, here's 06 Kobe dragging his team through the Playoffs...

Lakers were -9 with him on the floor
They were a +8 with him off it

Here's Duncan's great 01 help...

+5 with him on the floor,
-34 with him off it

You wanna what the worst Net Rating a Kobe team had with him off the floor? -17

Shaq? -21

LeBron? -25

People will look at a list of names and make their minds up from there though (people like ImKobe claiming 03 Parker was anything less than dogshit).

Spurs were a whole 18 points better when Parker went to the bench. :oldlol:

If u actually play basketball and understand basketball mechanics in terms of some players play better without a star on the court Sometimes due to lack of effort when the star is present or intimidation or low comfort levels because they havent had the ball in their hands as often. Then maybe you'd get that this means almost nothing.

The problem with alot of people on this board is they dont actually play basketball and watch the game only by statistics (lebron stans are the worst for this)

[raiderfan19]

I'd just like to point out the fallacy of saying Duncan had more help than Shaq/Kobe. Well of course he had more help than both of them did. Anytime you build a team around multiple superstars that team is going to lack in depth. That being said you can't remove the other person from consideration of the others help. Ie I'm not so sure it's fair to say Duncan had more help than Shaq because Shaqs help include Kobe or that Duncan had more help than Kobe because Kobe's help included Shaq even though it would be fair to say that Duncan had more help than Kobe/Shaq. That's like saying dirk had more help than the big 3 in 2011. Well of course if you take them as one collective individual. But that's not an equivalent comparison

[T_L_P]

If u actually play basketball and understand basketball mechanics in terms of some players play better without a star on the court Sometimes due to lack of effort when the star is present or intimidation or low comfort levels because they havent had the ball in their hands as often. Then maybe you'd get that this means almost nothing.

The problem with alot of people on this board is they dont actually play basketball and watch the game only by statistics (lebron stans are the worst for this)

So basically Kobe ball (controlling, manipulative, caring about individual numbers and accolades, giving shoddy effort on defense and needing to be the man) vs Duncan ball (giving young players touches to develop, taking all the blame when things go wrong, asking teammates where they want the ball in order to be successful and always covering for their mistakes on defense)? Got it. :cheers:

[dubeta]

So basically Kobe ball (controlling, manipulative, caring about individual numbers and accolades, giving shoddy effort on defense and needing to be the man) vs Duncan ball (giving young players touches to develop, taking all the blame when things go wrong, asking teammates where they want the ball in order to be successful and always covering for their mistakes on defense)? Got it. :cheers:

LeBron Ball is better than both.

[T_L_P]

LeBron Ball is better than both.

Actually, you could argue that LeBron ball is almost exactly like Kobe ball (he clearly cares about stats and accolades, he picks and chooses when to play defense, and he has problems with authority)...he's just a much greater talent than Kobe, and his individual ability means he can/could carry teams to lots of wins.

2012 LeBron, much like 2000 Kobe, is the exception, and he was a real joy to watch.

[ImKobe]

03 Fisher in the postseason: 13/3/2/2 on .685 TS% (Playoff leader), 3.2 BPM

Lakers 3rd best player

03 Parker: 15/3/3/1 on .468 TS%, -1.8 BPM

Spurs 3rd best player

Yet you talk about 03 Parker as if he was basically an All-Star (remember that thread where you said he was great player because of two closeout games against LA, as if that's what he did throughout the run?) Whereas 03 Fisher is a scrub. Hilarious. :oldlol:

How convenient of u to put up overall post-season numbers and not the one against the Spurs

Duncan had Manu, Parker, Bowen beasting for him in that Lakers series. Again, Bowen shot 17/26 from three in that same series. Lakers only had one other 10+ ppg scorer in Derek Fisher, Robert Horry and Brian Shaw combined for 3/33 from the 3pt range

And Shaq + Kobe were worn down from 3 straight title runs while Duncan hadn't had a Finals run since 99...Spurs were a healthier, deeper team that actually played defense, Lakers were still good enough to be a top 5 offense with Shaq and Kobe leading the way, but their lack of depth showed in the Playoffs.

Spurs had the best record in the league while Lakers were barely a 5 seed. Kobe and Shaq put up their usual Playoff numbers and lost in 6 to a much better prepared & a much more motivated team.

Better perimeter defense, better inside defense, better 3pt shooting

But y'all gonna act like Duncan was out there playing 1 vs 5 :coleman:

Game 1: D-Rob puts up 14/11, Manu puts up 15/6/2/4
Game 2: Bowen puts up 27 on 10/12 shooting with 3 blocks, Parker puts up 16/3/4/1, Manu puts up 17/3/3/2/1 on 71% shooting, Speedy Claxton 15 pts on 6/7 shooting
Game 5: Bowen 12/3/2/1/2 on 67% shooting, Parker 21/5/3 on 50% shooting
Game 6: Parker 27/1/5/2 on 47% shooting, Manu 10/5/4/3 50% shooting

but Duncan had ZERO help, he did EVERYTHING, right??

[NZStreetBaller]

So basically Kobe ball (controlling, manipulative, caring about individual numbers and accolades, giving shoddy effort on defense and needing to be the man) vs Duncan ball (giving young players touches to develop, taking all the blame when things go wrong, asking teammates where they want the ball in order to be successful and always covering for their mistakes on defense)? Got it. :cheers:

Kobe has always been kobe and he has had to deal with alot of changes and personalities with different styles.

Timmy has pretty much lived in comfort with a solid coach solid star team mates and all very unselfish teammates and well oiled machine for over a decade.

Both men have the same result of 5 rings

Kobe just had a much harder road Then timmy.

[NZStreetBaller]

Actually, you could argue that LeBron ball is almost exactly like Kobe ball (he clearly cares about stats and accolades, he picks and chooses when to play defense, and he has problems with authority)...he's just a much greater talent than Kobe, and his individual ability means he can/could carry teams to lots of wins.

2012 LeBron, much like 2000 Kobe, is the exception, and he was a real joy to watch.

Lebron ball has a success rate of 2 lousy rings even though through his prime he had 2 all stars. One of those all stars had already won a chip and was the fmvp for god sakes

[T_L_P]

How convenient of u to put up overall post-season numbers and not the one against the Spurs

Duncan had Manu, Parker, Bowen beasting for him in that Lakers series. Again, Bowen shot 17/26 from three in that same series. Lakers only had one other 10+ ppg scorer in Derek Fisher, Robert Horry and Brian Shaw combined for 3/33 from the 3pt range

And Shaq + Kobe were worn down from 3 straight title runs while Duncan hadn't had a Finals run since 99...Spurs were a healthier, deeper team that actually played defense, Lakers were still good enough to be a top 5 offense with Shaq and Kobe leading the way, but their lack of depth showed in the Playoffs.

Spurs had the best record in the league while Lakers were barely a 5 seed. Kobe and Shaq put up their usual Playoff numbers and lost in 6 to a much better prepared & a much more motivated team.

Better perimeter defense, better inside defense, better 3pt shooting

But y'all gonna act like Duncan was out there playing 1 vs 5 :coleman:

Game 1: D-Rob puts up 14/11, Manu puts up 15/6/2/4
Game 2: Bowen puts up 27 on 10/12 shooting with 3 blocks, Parker puts up 16/3/4/1, Manu puts up 17/3/3/2/1 on 71% shooting, Speedy Claxton 15 pts on 6/7 shooting
Game 5: Bowen 12/3/2/1/2 on 67% shooting, Parker 21/5/3 on 50% shooting
Game 6: Parker 27/1/5/2 on 47% shooting, Manu 10/5/4/3 50% shooting

but Duncan had ZERO help, he did EVERYTHING, right??

03 team was very strong. One of the weaker title casts, but still a very strong team. You won't see me saying otherwise. Does that take away from the fact that, whole Playoff run considered, Parker was a net negative? And that Duncan raised his teammates' play in ways almost no other player ever has (peep the team play with Duncan on the bench, or just watch some games to see how Duncan covered for everyone defensively and got them all open shots from the low-post).

That Spurs squad was better than the 03 Lakers. But if we're saying Duncan almost always had strong enough squads to win (which I'm guessing means top 5 help), so did Kobe outside of 05-07 and the past 3 years.

[dubeta]

Actually, you could argue that LeBron ball is almost exactly like Kobe ball (he clearly cares about stats and accolades, he picks and chooses when to play defense, and he has problems with authority)...he's just a much greater talent than Kobe, and his individual ability means he can/could carry teams to lots of wins.

2012 LeBron, much like 2000 Kobe, is the exception, and he was a real joy to watch.

So LeBron ball results in calling out teammates, poor efficiency, shooting your team out of a series (2004 Finals), publically asking teammates to be traded, poor efficiency, publically asking for a trade, running every teammate out of town and did I mention poor efficiency? :facepalm

[34-24 Footwork]

Damn.....Kenneth body slammin kobe haters. This is getting ugly.

What the fvck is player efficiency rating and what does it have to do with winning?

[ImKobe]

I'd just like to point out the fallacy of saying Duncan had more help than Shaq/Kobe. Well of course he had more help than both of them did. Anytime you build a team around multiple superstars that team is going to lack in depth. That being said you can't remove the other person from consideration of the others help. Ie I'm not so sure it's fair to say Duncan had more help than Shaq because Shaqs help include Kobe or that Duncan had more help than Kobe because Kobe's help included Shaq even though it would be fair to say that Duncan had more help than Kobe/Shaq. That's like saying dirk had more help than the big 3 in 2011. Well of course if you take them as one collective individual. But that's not an equivalent comparison

Shaq and Kobe weren't at their best in 03, they were worn down from all the deep Playoff runs, Shaq was getting fatter and became a shitty defender, but still put up the stat lines that made him look better than he really was..

Lakers had 0 bench and they were thin at PF and SF positions with Horry and Shaw playing like crap

Duncan had S-Jax, Manu, Parker, Speedy, Bowen, Malik Rose, D-Rob, all these guys showed up in crucial moments for the Spurs in the Playoffs, and they played elite defense while the Lakers were below average. Did Duncan have a big role? Sure, but he only gave them 24.7 ppg on 58% TS in the Playoffs, Spurs don't make it out the West without others showing up. Lakers could have easily won the series if Games 1 and 5 go their way, but they didn't because other guys showed up. Duncan was 0 - 4 in the 4th quarter of Game 1 (Spurs win by 5), 2/5 in Game 5 (Spurs win by 2)

[raiderfan19]

I'm not sure why you responded to that post to say that...


That being said Kobe fans pointing out Bruce effing Bowen and manu going off against the lakers in the playoffs in the same thread they earlier said Kobe was a better defender than Duncan is hilarious.

[ImKobe]

03 team was very strong. One of the weaker title casts, but still a very strong team. You won't see me saying otherwise. Does that take away from the fact that, whole Playoff run considered, Parker was a net negative? And that Duncan raised his teammates' play in ways almost no other player ever has (peep the team play with Duncan on the bench, or just watch some games to see how Duncan covered for everyone defensively and got them all open shots from the low-post).

That Spurs squad was better than the 03 Lakers. But if we're saying Duncan almost always had strong enough squads to win (which I'm guessing means top 5 help), so did Kobe outside of 05-07 and the past 3 years.

Parker was not a net negative. You need to get your ass out of the advanced statistics and into the game footage and actual facts. Parker showed up in important games. Manu showed up in important games. D-Rob showed up when it mattered, Bowen played elite defense and hit a ton of 3s when they needed him to.

It was a combination of Spurs having elite defense (the ability to keep games close, low-scoring) and guys showing up at the most opportune times. It is what it is. Duncan gets props for being consistent and dominating the glass/protecting the rim, but let's not act like they were the underdogs.

#1 seed, 60 wins, top 3 defense, prime Duncan.

And it's not like the West was that strong...they went up against horrible defensive teams.

Spurs just had the right combination of guys and the chemistry, Lakers had neither.

[ImKobe]

I'm not sure why you responded to that post to say that...


That being said Kobe fans pointing out Bruce effing Bowen and manu going off against the lakers in the playoffs in the same thread they earlier said Kobe was a better defender than Duncan is hilarious.

fat Shaq put up 25/14 on 56% shooting against peak Duncan, I guess Tim's a garbage defender by your logic :confusedshrug:

[iamgine]

The way you score is also important. Kobe often shoot tough shots while if he passed it would be higher percentage shot. Other than lowering overall team efficiency, this style of playing also has an effect of demoralizing teammates.

[NZStreetBaller]

So LeBron ball results in calling out teammates, poor efficiency, shooting your team out of a series (2004 Finals), publically asking teammates to be traded, poor efficiency, publically asking for a trade, running every teammate out of town and did I mention poor efficiency? :facepalm

Im other words holding ur team mates to a higher standard. Sounds alpha to me....

[34-24 Footwork]

Lol @ demoralizing teammates because he refuses to pass to an open Kwame Brown or Smush Parker.

People refuse to give context when speaking about this topic......

[T_L_P]

Parker was not a net negative. You need to get your ass out of the advanced statistics and into the game footage and actual facts. Parker showed up in important games. Manu showed up in important games. D-Rob showed up when it mattered, Bowen played elite defense and hit a ton of 3s when they needed him to.

It was a combination of Spurs having elite defense (the ability to keep games close, low-scoring) and guys showing up at the most opportune times. It is what it is. Duncan gets props for being consistent and dominating the glass/protecting the rim, but let's not act like they were the underdogs.

#1 seed, 60 wins, top 3 defense, prime Duncan.

And it's not like the West was that strong...they went up against horrible defensive teams.

Spurs just had the right combination of guys and the chemistry, Lakers had neither.

Pop benched Parker for Speedy fcking Claxton. Yeah, he really showed up everytime it mattered.

In 03 he was a non-descript PG who couldn't pass, shoot or defend, was horribly inefficient and even then a ball-stopper. The numbers support this. A few good/great games out of 25 doesn't. It's a fact that the Spurs got 18 points better with Parker on the bench. That's just embarrassing.

Didn't say anything about Manu, Robinson or Bowen. Manu was the 2nd best Spur that postseason.

Your second paragraph couldn't be more wrong. That 'elite defense' had a DRtg of 105 without Duncan (below league average), and an ORtg of 90 (#16 of all Playoff teams).

This sentence:


Duncan gets props for being consistent and dominating the glass/protecting the rim

makes me want to put you on my ignore list. The entire Spurs offense was letting Duncan score 1-on-1 or finding the open man if doubled. That's why the Spurs shot so well from 3, because when Duncan wasn't there we had an eFG% of .383 (compared to .489 with him on it, ORtg of 90 without him and 105 ORtg with him). It was a collection of terrible offensive players who were carried by Duncan.

He was the team's best scorer (+10 PPG than the 2nd leading scorer), main playmaker, defensive anchor, and leader.

Kobe or Shaq never had to do that much for their team. You boiling it down to crashing the glass and anchoring the defense makes me think you have no idea what you're talking about.

And even if you don't like advanced numbers, I'm gonna recite them anyway:

Most Win Shares ever in a postseason
3rd best WS/48 for a title run (behind 91 and 96 Jordan)
2nd best Box +/- for a title run (behind 91 Jordan)

The two-way play of 03 Duncan is basically unmatched. The numbers prove it, the eyes test proves it.

[34-24 Footwork]

How does a guy that averages nearly 6 assists a game demoralize his teammates.

[ImKobe]

The way you score is also important. Kobe often shoot tough shots while if he passed it would be higher percentage shot. Other than lowering overall team efficiency, this style of playing also has an effect of demoralizing teammates.

Or maybe him playing the way he does actually keeps the defenses honest, and takes attention away from his teammates that get easy baskets as a result? (see: Shaq, Pau, Fisher, Odom, Bynum, Ariza)

And you need (or at least used to need) a star player that can win games on his own in the Playoffs, who shows up in big moments.

Kobe won 5 rings with his "inefficient" style of play. I guess he did something right because the guys that tried to copy him (AI, T-Mac, Vince, Melo) are all ringless.

[ImKobe]

Pop benched Parker for Speedy fcking Claxton. Yeah, he really showed up everytime it mattered.

In 03 he was a non-descript PG who couldn't pass, shoot or defend, was horribly inefficient and even then a ball-stopper. The numbers support this. A few good/great games out of 25 doesn't. It's a fact that the Spurs got 18 points better with Parker on the bench. That's just embarrassing.

Didn't say anything about Manu, Robinson or Bowen. Manu was the 2nd best Spur that postseason.

Your second paragraph couldn't be more wrong. That 'elite defense' had a DRtg of 105 without Duncan (below league average), and an ORtg of 90 (#16 of all Playoff teams).

This sentence:



makes me want to put you on my ignore list. The entire Spurs offense was letting Duncan score 1-on-1 or finding the open man if doubled. That's why the Spurs shot so well from 3, because when Duncan wasn't there we had an eFG% of .383 (compared to .489 with him on it, ORtg of 90 without him and 105 ORtg with him). It was a collection of terrible offensive players who were carried by Duncan.

He was the team's best scorer (+10 PPG than the 2nd leading the scorer, the terrible inefficient Parker), main playmaker, and defensive anchor.

Kobe or Shaq never had to do that much for their team. You boiling it down to crashing the glass and anchoring the defense makes me think you have no idea what you're talking about.

And even if you don't like advanced numbers, I'm gonna recite them anyway:

Most Win Shares ever in a postseason
3rd best WS/48 for a title run (behind 91 and 96 Jordan)
2nd best Box +/- for a title run (behind 91 Jordan)

The two-way play of 03 Duncan is basically unmatched. The numbers prove it, the eyes test proves it.

His rebounding and his defense were far more important than the 24.7 points he put up :confusedshrug:, am I wrong there? lol.

What you don't seem to get is that basketball is a team game, and his teammates showed up when it mattered the most. He was garbage in crunch time against the Lakers and they still won. I've seen the games, I know the stats. Stats don't show what game footage does. Simple as that.

[34-24 Footwork]

Regardless of the EPIC slaughter and complete destruction of the Miami Heat in 2014, that was NOT the best Spurs team in recent history. The best Spurs teams played in the early 2000's and got dismantled by Frobe and Shaq.

Good ole inefficient Kobe, manahandling dynasties at the age of 21.

[ImKobe]

Regardless of the EPIC slaughter and complete destruction of the Miami Heat in 2014, that was NOT the best Spurs team in recent history. The best Spurs teams played in the early 2000's and got dismantled by Frobe and Shaq.

Good ole inefficient Kobe, manahandling dynasties at the age of 21.

Which is why he is so salty and has gone mad with the advanced statistics because actual game footage won't back up his bullshit.

Kobe destroyed Duncan 4 out of the 6 times they met.

2001 was absolute slaughter considering Spurs had HCA and got wrecked.

[T_L_P]

His rebounding and his defense were far more important than the 24.7 points he put up :confusedshrug:, am I wrong there? lol.

What you don't seem to get is that basketball is a team game, and his teammates showed up when it mattered the most. He was garbage in crunch time against the Lakers and they still won. I've seen the games, I know the stats. Stats don't show what game footage does. Simple as that.

No, his defense was certainly his most important asset - and it was some of the best defense anyone has ever played. And that goes along with dragging his team on offense (again, the only good offensive players Duncan had on that team were Manu, Jackson and Speedy, Kerr too but he played like 40 minutes total).

It's not like I posted one number that could be wrong. Every number says Duncan carried the team; that the team was average defensively outside of him and piss-poor offensively. I posted the shooting numbers with and without him. You can just watch a highlight video to see why it was so different: almost every open shot was a result of someone being left open off the double-team. Remember Kerr going off against the Mavs? Every shot he had was wide-open, because Nash had to double Tim (otherwise it would be a 40 point game).

It's a fact that Duncan had to do more for his team in 03 than Kobe or Shaq ever did. The numbers show how weak the squad was (in contrast to other title teams), and the eye test supports this too (and you know it, you just don't like it).

Next you'll be telling me Kobe had a comparable Playoff run. :oldlol:

[ImKobe]

No, his defense was certainly his most important asset - and it was some of the best defense anyone has ever played. And that goes along with dragging his team on offense (again, the only good offensive players Duncan had on that team were Manu, Jackson and Speedy, Kerr too but he played like 40 minutes total).

It's not like I posted one number that could be wrong. Every number says Duncan carried the team; that the team was average defensively outside of him and piss-poor offensively. I posted the shooting numbers with and without him. You can just watch a highlight video to see why it was so different: almost every open shot was a result of someone being left open off the double-team. Remember Kerr going off against the Mavs? Every shot he had was wide-open, because Nash had to double Tim (otherwise it would be a 40 point game).

It's a fact that Duncan had to do more for his team in 03 than Kobe or Shaq ever did. The numbers show how weak the squad was (in contrast to other title teams), and the eye test supports this too (and you know it, you just don't like it).

Next you'll be telling me Kobe had a comparable Playoff run. :oldlol:

2001 Playoffs, 2009 Playoffs :confusedshrug:

[T_L_P]

2001 Playoffs, 2009 Playoffs :confusedshrug:

Proof that the only reason numbers mean nothing to you is because they all say 03 Duncan was on another planet entirely to any version of Kobe.

Duncan's play was simply better.

[dubeta]

Duncan and Kobe with their sub 30 PER championship runs :facepalm

[NZStreetBaller]

Duncan and Kobe with their sub 30 PER championship runs :facepalm

id take championships over PER ranking anyday lol

[Prime_Shaq]

Duncan = Shaq > Kobe

[I<3NBA]

i know scoring isn't the only part of the game...
shuda stopped there.

[ISHGoat]

Kenneth, what do you have to say about LeBrons 27.4 career ppg vs Kobes 25.4?

Oh and on .496% vs .451% FG?

Wouldnt you say Lebron is the far better scorer, as he exceeds him in every measurable scoring statistic, basic stats, advanced stats, etc?

And he plays in a conference that plays defense with slow pace. He didnt get to play teams like the warriors and suns and nuggets 4 times a year.

I look forward to your response.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kenneth, what do you have to say about LeBrons 27.4 career ppg vs Kobes 25.4?

Oh and on .496% vs .451% FG?

Wouldnt you say Lebron is the far better scorer, as he exceeds him in every measurable scoring statistic, basic stats, advanced stats, etc?

And he plays in a conference that plays defense with slow pace. He didnt get to play teams like the warriors and suns and nuggets 4 times a year.

I look forward to your response.

Why are you comparing career averages of one player who is 30 and still in his prime to a 36 year old who's played 9 more seasons?

You gonna compare BG & Duncans career averages next?

Kobe from 01-15 averaged 28 ppg

[ISHGoat]

Why are you comparing career averages of one player who is 30 and still in his prime to a 36 year old who's played 9 more seasons?

You gonna compare BG & Duncans career averages next?

Kobe from 01-15 averaged 28 ppg

Ok, we can take kobe's first 10 seasons in the league, is that fair? If youre going to say "the first three benchwarming seasons dont count, since lebron never had that", then you also gotta discount the seasons where he chucked on a bad team, since lebron never had that either.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Ok, we can take kobe's first 10 seasons in the league, is that fair? If youre going to say "the first three benchwarming seasons dont count, since lebron never had that", then you also gotta discount the seasons where he chucked on a bad team, since lebron never had that either.

I guess 04 and 05 never happened?

Lebron came into the league with the green light to shoot 20 shots per game on a team with no playoff expectations.

Kobe came into the league when HS players were rarely drafted and never taken high in the draft. Because of this Kobe fell to 13 where he was eventually traded to a playoff team that already had 2 all star guards, so he didn't have the opportunity to chuck his heart out while winning 30 games like Lebron did

comparing career averages of two players who have 9 years difference is dishonest, Kobe's been out of his prime for 6 years, while Lebron is still in his. Lebrons career averages are at their peak and will continue to slip every year as Lebron continues to age

[Prime_Shaq]

Good thread.

My top 10 is pretty much set (for the next couple of years at least with Wiggins entering his young prime):


1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. LeBron
5. Kobe

6. Shaq
7. Duncan
8. Bird
9. Magic
10. Hakeem

HM: Bill Russell
:roll: :roll: :roll:
That's a shit list bro :wtf:

[stalkerforlife]

Kobe Bryant:
30+ point games: 425
40+ point games: 119
50+ point games: 24
60+ point games: 5
70+ point games: 1
80+ point games: 1



Tim Duncan:
30+ point games: 120
40+ point games: 5
50+ point games: 1
60+ point games: 0
70+ point games: 0
80+ point games: 0



a) Kobe has basically as many 40 point games as Duncan has 30 point games

b) Kobe has as many 60 point games as Duncan has 40 point games

c) Kobe has as many 80 point games as Duncan has 50 point games

d) Kobes 2 quarter record ( 55 ) is better than Duncans career high ( 53 )

e) Kobe has nearly as many consecutive 50+ point games ( 4 ) as Duncan has total 40+ point games in his career ( 5 )

f) Kobe has more consecutive 40+ point games ( 9 ) than Duncan has total 40+ point games in his entire lifespan ( 5 )





and before this thread turns into a sh*t storm of redundant back and forth crap. let me take care of everything with quotes






















now forget all the quoted stuff and focus on the new shocking evidence i've unearthed

Antifreeze. Rat Poison. Ether. Casey Anthony.

Kobe top 5 all time.

[Andrei89]

Kenneth man you are such a bad poster :lol :lol :lol

[kennethgriffin]

Kenneth, what do you have to say about LeBrons 27.4 career ppg vs Kobes 25.4?

Oh and on .496% vs .451% FG?

Wouldnt you say Lebron is the far better scorer, as he exceeds him in every measurable scoring statistic, basic stats, advanced stats, etc?

And he plays in a conference that plays defense with slow pace. He didnt get to play teams like the warriors and suns and nuggets 4 times a year.

I look forward to your response.

kobes average as a starter is 27.2ppg

and lebron doesnt get drafted #1 on a bad team and get all the shots he wants on the starting lineup without a guy like kobe being the first wing drafted out of highschool to ever make something of himself

switch lebron to 96 and he gets drafted mid first round by skeptical GMs too

switch kobe to 03 and he gets drafted 1st overall by confident GMs too

then maybe kobes the one with 27ppg career and lebrons 25ppg because of situations

[Cold soul]

Proof that the only reason numbers mean nothing to you is because they all say 03 Duncan was on another planet entirely to any version of Kobe.

Duncan's play was simply better.

You can say 03 Duncan was better than season Kobe ever had but to act like Kobe wasn't on or close to same level at any point in his career is foolish and ignorant.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Lakers in 03 were ranked 19th defensively and Kobe played his ass off in the regular season for them to even scrape 50 wins that year, they were obviously still considered a contender because they had just won the previous 3 years but no HCA and Derek Fisher being our 3rd best player....no bench...

Duncan had Parker, Manu, Bowen, S-Jax, Speedy, Robinson

Kobe had Shaq, D-Fish, Horry (0-18 from 3 that series), Shaw (3-15 from 3 that series), Slava fricken Medvedenko

Kobe and Shaq ultimately wasn't enough to win against the Spurs that shot 35/74 from 3 that series (47,9%)

Did you know that Bruce Bowen shot 17/26 (65%) from deep that series?

Wait a sec...manu averaged, what, 19 minutes a game that year? They shot a combined 38% in the postseason, him and Parker. 38%. Robinson was 7/6 in that playoff run, 8.5/8 in the regular season, and was decrepit.

Jackson and Claxton were never great players, full stop, Claxton averaged 19 mpg and shot 38% that season, whereas Jacksons TS% was a slightly below average .526% and his Offensive rating a paltry 99. Neither were known as defensive stoppers either.


I have Duncan ranked only slightly above Kobe all-time, so I don't hate on Kobe, one of my favorite 2 guards ever but cmon, Duncan's supporting cast in '03 was not a great one.

[inclinerator]

what about in the playoffs, since according to many that's the only thing that matters

[Harison]

Picking Timmeh over Kobe 10x of 10 :cheers: They are close on All-time list (9th and 10th respectively), but there is no GM in the World who would rather build around Kobe than TD.

[John Tesh]

What do you know, a Kobe fan uses points as his justification for him being better.

[DatAsh]

people wanna ignore my OP and the new evidence i presented.. theyre all trying to hijack my thread and turn it into a defense discussion

to somehow prove duncan might slightly be above kobe at something


well thats opinion. i have facts


and even if i was somehow wrong. that still doesnt explain why kobe is leaps and bounds sh*tting on duncan in terms of a ridiculous amount more of 30,40 point games

i mean.. to do that it doesnt even take someone to chuck a bunch. just be effective and you can get 30,40 on a good night

duncan is so damn futile when comparing the other side of the game. which is why his supporters tend to try and switch the subject

theres no excuse for someone having more 40 point games than a person has 30 point games... especially when the guy i'm talking about said this




so its not like duncan is oblivious to the idea.. he understands the concept and how hard it is..

he appreciates it... but his fans dont.

Kobe is a significantly better scorer and overall offensive player. Duncan is a significantly better defensive player. That's why they're close all time.

I have Duncan over Kobe, as I think the defensive gap between them is bigger than the offensive gap, but they're close overall.

[kennethgriffin]

Picking Timmeh over Kobe 10x of 10 :cheers: They are close on All-time list (9th and 10th respectively), but there is no GM in the World who would rather build around Kobe than TD.


i think its obvious kobes better when you strip both players media awards/titles away ( which are both almost dead even. duncan slightly ahead )

but when you cancel both out

kobes still got a career resembling elgin baylors ( around top 12-13 all time )

but

duncans is more like patrick ewing ( around top 25-30 all time )




kobe still has that individual legendary aspet that stands out even without the success ( which he has a ton of to go with it )


kobe is a double legend. tim is a singular legend

kobe is like ric flair. he has 2 HOF rings. duncan has only 1

[kennethgriffin]

its easy to weed out the top 10 when you consider whos a double legend ( with or without a bunch of rings )


guys who stay =

Jordan
Kareem
Kobe
Wilt
Shaq


guys who go =

Russell
Duncan
Magic
Bird
Hakeem


with a bunch of rings... the first 5 still have careers around top 10

the 2nd group of guys ... without their rings they drop to around the top 20 or worse for a few


thats the difference

[ISHGoat]

kobes average as a starter is 27.2ppg

and lebron doesnt get drafted #1 on a bad team and get all the shots he wants on the starting lineup without a guy like kobe being the first wing drafted out of highschool to ever make something of himself

switch lebron to 96 and he gets drafted mid first round by skeptical GMs too

switch kobe to 03 and he gets drafted 1st overall by confident GMs too

then maybe kobes the one with 27ppg career and lebrons 25ppg because of situations

then maybe Lebron's the one with 5-6 rings and Kobe has 2 rings? If were going to look at team, situation and context, then you cant hold lebron's ring count against him. Only 2011 was his fault, while 2004 was kobe's fault.

[kennethgriffin]

then maybe Lebron's the one with 5-6 rings and Kobe has 2 rings? If were going to look at team, situation and context, then you cant hold lebron's ring count against him. Only 2011 was his fault, while 2004 was kobe's fault.

its allot easier to put up a ton of shots on 2 lottery teams your first 2 seasons than win 5-6 nba championships


just sayin... with kobe he would 100% be guaranteed to accomplish 27ppg career


with lebron he might have upped his odds 5% to accomplish the other goal

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Good thread.

My top 10 is pretty much set (for the next couple of years at least with Wiggins entering his young prime):


1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. LeBron
5. Kobe

6. Shaq
7. Duncan
8. Bird
9. Magic
10. Hakeem

HM: Bill Russell

Bolded are too high, underlined are too low.

[kennethgriffin]

and besides.. lebron rigged himself to a laker level spending/run organization with tons of talent and got his wish regardless of when or where he was drafted

so he cheated his way out of that unfortunate circumstance and still kept his 27ppg career... but failed miserably at attaining the 8 he promised...let alone 5-6 titles


:lol

[ISHGoat]

its allot easier to put up a ton of shots on 2 lottery teams your first 2 seasons than win 5-6 nba championships


just sayin... with kobe he would 100% be guaranteed to accomplish 27ppg career


with lebron he might have upped his odds 5% to accomplish the other goal

Lebron has a 5% chance to win 3 or more rings with peak shaq, and then 2 rings from 2005 and onwards?

[kennethgriffin]

Lebron has a 5% chance to win 3 or more rings with peak shaq, and then 2 rings from 2005 and onwards?

a big part of what kobe did for the lakers during their 3 playoff runs was be clutch, knock down late game shots/free throws

and cohesively work well with a post player that forced kobe to take midrange shots


while lebron is
- not clutch
- not good at free throws
- not cohesive with post players
- not good at mid range shots


they woulda traded bron instead of eddie jones if that were the case


( and btw.. i was refering to 5% being the odds of being picked 13th-15th by a random team )

[dubeta]

a big part of what kobe did for the lakers during their 3 playoff runs was be clutch, knock down late game shots/free throws

and cohesively work well with a post player that forced kobe to take midrange shots


while lebron is
- not clutch
- not good at free throws
- not cohesive with post players
- not good at mid range shots


they woulda traded bron instead of eddie jones if that were the case


( and btw.. i was refering to 5% being the odds of being picked 13th-15th by a random team )

You're right, theres only a 5% chance of LeBron ending up on an elite organisation like the Lakers from the draft, since a garbage lottery team would have gotten him.

This isn't Kobe who basically forced his hand and colluded with Jerry West before the draft, kept the poor Hornets hostage.