Michael Jordan vs Lebron James - Open Court

[Beastmode88]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12YcO9Epuys

Kenny summed it up well at the end. :applause: :applause:

[pauk]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12YcO9Epuys

Kenny summed it up well at the end. :applause: :applause:

What at the end? The double team thing?

Im sorry but Pippen around Jordan was as doubleteamed as Wade was around Lebron..... which is not much at all, certainly nowhere close to be as double'd as Jordan/Lebron were.

[Roundball_Rock]

What at the end? The double team thing?

Im sorry but Pippen around Jordan was as doubleteamed as Wade was around Lebron..... which is not much at all, certainly nowhere close to be as double'd as Jordan/Lebron were.

Exactly. :oldlol:

Fascinating discussion. Barkley says LeBron could be better than Jordan and notes that LeBron is bigger, faster and stronger than MJ, Shaq seems to suggest the same is possible if LeBron gets to 6 rings, K. Smith is adamant that LeBron is not on par with Jordan.

It is true MJ had to carry a significantly greater scoring load than LeBron but LeBron also had to carry a significantly greater defensive load as well as serve as his team's primary playmaker/ballhandler and do more on the glass. Kenny Smith ignored these aspects of their respective workloads. LeBron never had the GOAT perimeter defender plus a former DPOY on his side. MJ has a strong case over LeBron but workload is not why since LeBron has had to do more for his teams.

[pauk]

I just hate how many often feel the need to degrade Pippen in honor of Jordan.... we all know Jordan is the GOAT... no need to try suck up more.... Pippen was amazing, there has never been a more overall versatile player on both ends than Pippen....

[Prime_Shaq]

I just hate how many often feel the need to degrade Pippen in honor of Jordan.... we all know Jordan is the GOAT... no need to try suck up more.... Pippen was amazing, there has never been a more overall versatile player on both ends than Pippen....
Well said,I agree wholeheartedly. I do agree while Charles that LeBron has the perfect body for basketball, which is why I think he has the potential to surpass MJ but he hasn't reached that level of dominance for me. I've yet to see LeBron dominate the Finals in a way that MJ or Shaq did.

[Soundwave]

I actually don't think LeBron has the ideal build for basketball.

He's too heavy, too slow. Why do you think he tried to lose so much weight?

It would make sense if he was a post player primarily, but he's not. He plays a perimeter/slashing game. No way is he anywhere close to as fast as Jordan, especially his first step which is nothing special.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I actually don't think LeBron has the ideal build for basketball.

He's too heavy, too slow. Why do you think he tried to lose so much weight?

It would make sense if he was a post player primarily, but he's not. He plays a perimeter/slashing game. No way is he anywhere close to as fast as Jordan, especially his first step which is nothing special.
Agreed.

James relies a lot on picks. Against bigger guys he can abuse them off the dribble in ISOs but against anyone else and he needs help offensively. Picks. LeBron might be faster end to end, MAYBE, even though MJ had a faster recorded 40 yard dash.

But Jordan is undoubtedly quicker, and amazing acceleration speed. They're both durable. MJ doesn't look like he pounds HGH suppliments. He's much faster laterally. He's basically a stronger, wider shoulder, bigger hand, better leaping athlete version of Kobe. With the same footwork, and elite skill set.

I think Jordan's build is more ideal for basketball too.

[LBJ 23]

Agreed.

James relies a lot on picks. Against bigger guys he can abuse them off the dribble in ISOs but against anyone else and he needs help offensively. Picks. LeBron might be faster end to end, MAYBE, even though MJ had a faster recorded 40 yard dash.

But Jordan is undoubtedly quicker, and amazing acceleration speed. They're both durable. MJ doesn't look like he pounds HGH suppliments. He's much faster laterally. He's basically a stronger, wider shoulder, bigger hand, better leaping athlete version of Kobe. With the same footwork, and elite skill set.

I think Jordan's build is more ideal for basketball too.


Pretty much.

Jordan was almost perfect at everything when it comes to athleticism or skillset. Lebron is not.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Pretty much.

Jordan was almost perfect at everything when it comes to athleticism or skillset. Lebron is not.
Is that LeBron level of passive aggressive, bitch made-ness I sense?

:biggums:

[LBJ 23]

Is that LeBron level of passive aggressive, bitch made-ness I sense?

:biggums:


?

I just said Jordan was almost perfect at everything, Lebron still has areas where he is far from that. What's wrong with that?

Maybe it's because English is my 2nd language and I'm missing something here...

[Sarcastic]

Exactly. :oldlol:

Fascinating discussion. Barkley says LeBron could be better than Jordan and notes that LeBron is bigger, faster and stronger than MJ, Shaq seems to suggest the same is possible if LeBron gets to 6 rings, K. Smith is adamant that LeBron is not on par with Jordan.

It is true MJ had to carry a significantly greater scoring load than LeBron but LeBron also had to carry a significantly greater defensive load as well as serve as his team's primary playmaker/ballhandler and do more on the glass. Kenny Smith ignored these aspects of their respective workloads. LeBron never had the GOAT perimeter defender plus a former DPOY on his side. MJ has a strong case over LeBron but workload is not why since LeBron has had to do more for his teams.

Only reason that Lebron is primary ball handler/plymaker is that he can't play off ball. They tried it in 2011 with him more off ball, and he put up a historically bad finals performance, in which they gifted a series win to Dallas.

MJ could play both as primary playmaker or off ball.

[GimmeThat]

A prime magic would have eatten a prime jordan without pippen team alive.

A prime magic againt a prime Lebron. Not so much.



Because im a dwayne wade hater.

[Roundball_Rock]

Only reason that Lebron is primary ball handler/plymaker is that he can't play off ball. They tried it in 2011 with him more off ball, and he put up a historically bad finals performance, in which they gifted a series win to Dallas.

MJ could play both as primary playmaker or off ball.

If the issue is workload, though, the reason for it is not relevant. Smith suggested that MJ had to work much harder than LeBron.

You are right that LeBron does not function nearly as well as MJ off the ball. That said, it is no coincidence Chicago finally started winning as soon as the triangle was implemented and primary ballhandling/playmaking duties were shifted to another player. You need a pass first player in such a capacity who is looking out for his teammates and keeping them involved, not a guy who is going to "get his" 25 shots and pass as a second resort.

[Micku]

Agreed.

James relies a lot on picks. Against bigger guys he can abuse them off the dribble in ISOs but against anyone else and he needs help offensively. Picks. LeBron might be faster end to end, MAYBE, even though MJ had a faster recorded 40 yard dash.

But Jordan is undoubtedly quicker, and amazing acceleration speed. They're both durable. MJ doesn't look like he pounds HGH suppliments. He's much faster laterally. He's basically a stronger, wider shoulder, bigger hand, better leaping athlete version of Kobe. With the same footwork, and elite skill set.

I think Jordan's build is more ideal for basketball too.

I"m going to agree with Chuck and say LeBron's build is potentially better than Jordan's build. He's bigger and stronger and quick (not as quick as MJ). His height allows him to be more versatile. He hasn't develop the footwork or the skills like Kobe and MJ did, even though LeBron is solid.

He also isn't as versatile in the offensive end it seems. He must have the ball in his hands to be effective unlike MJ. MJ could do both extremely well and have Pippen as the primary ball handler. LeBron has to be the primary ball handler. I believe the only time he was good in his off the ball movement was in 2014. He got into position well with the post ups, and he was (surprisingly) one of the best spot ups in the league statistically in terms of efficiency. I'm not sure of his volume tho. He did this while still being the main ball handler for the Heat however.

[OldSchoolBBall]

What at the end? The double team thing?

Im sorry but Pippen around Jordan was as doubleteamed as Wade was around Lebron..... which is not much at all, certainly nowhere close to be as double'd as Jordan/Lebron were.

Pippen wasn't double-teamed anywhere near as much as Wade, because Wade is a much more potent individual scorer. Get your head out of your ass. :oldlol:

[Micku]

What at the end? The double team thing?

Im sorry but Pippen around Jordan was as doubleteamed as Wade was around Lebron..... which is not much at all, certainly nowhere close to be as double'd as Jordan/Lebron were.

I don't think that's true. Especially in 2011 and 2012. Teams couldn't afford to double team in 2011. Later in 2013 and 2014, the Heat had shooters everywhere and they were one of the best shooting teams in the league. If they did double LBJ, they would pay more. Wade was an elite scorer, so doubling teaming either one of them was like picking your poison.

LBJ wasn't doubled like MJ during those years I think.

[GimmeThat]

I "would" get in depth with finite math on the subject and all.


But I will pass, and let those interpret on their own.

[97 bulls]

I agree with Steve Smith. Why when players are being compared, must they be compared based on only one players skill set? Compare their impact on the court.

[Micku]

I agree with Steve Smith. Why when players are being compared, must they be compared based on only one players skill set? Compare their impact on the court.

True, true. To go deeper tho, that would depends on the teammates, wouldn't it? The only way we could know their impact is by plus/minus and win/losses. It also could be a wrong fit. Like the AI and Chancey Billups deal with the Nuggets or how the Pistons had to get rid of Adrian Dantley.

[Smoke117]

I actually don't think LeBron has the ideal build for basketball.

He's too heavy, too slow. Why do you think he tried to lose so much weight?

It would make sense if he was a post player primarily, but he's not. He plays a perimeter/slashing game. No way is he anywhere close to as fast as Jordan, especially his first step which is nothing special.

I've always agreed with this. Really the most important thing a perimeter basketball player needs is QUICKNESS AND NIMBLENESS. For Lebrons size he has/had an a crazy amount...but he's never been able to make the quick herky jerky moves like a Jordan, Kobe, Wade, or even a Grant Hill in the 90s. He's more like Pippen in that way too as Pippen's athleticism tended towards full blown speed, explosiveness (and length) as opposed to quickness and nimbleness. He actually put on more muscle as he got older so he could better hang in the paint since his quickness was waning anyway.

As far as most ideal basketball body ever: I'd go with Kevin Garnett.

[LeBird]

I've always agreed with this. Really the most important thing a perimeter basketball player needs is QUICKNESS AND NIMBLENESS. For Lebrons size he has/had an a crazy amount...but he's never been able to make the quick herky jerky moves like a Jordan, Kobe, Wade, or even a Grant Hill in the 90s. He's more like Pippen in that way too as Pippen's athleticism tended towards full blown speed, explosiveness (and length) as opposed to quickness and nimbleness. He actually put on more muscle as he got older so he could better hang in the paint since his quickness was waning anyway.

As far as most ideal basketball body ever: I'd go with Kevin Garnett.

The above is correct, but I disagree with the conclusion. Lebron's strength and size means that for any other wing he is a horrible mismatch and he will own them. In reality, he's a mismatch for any player in the game - possibly ever. If you're bigger than him, you're not anywhere near as quick or skilled. If you're faster and more nimble, you're not anywhere close to his strength and size.

Lebron simply doesn't need that extra agility to change direction because once he gains speed in the direction he is going there is no stopping him. Only Barkley is superior to him at the rim; Lebron is simply a freak. It's more than just basketball; he might be the greatest physical specimen we've ever seen.

[3ball]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12YcO9Epuys

Kenny summed it up well at the end. :applause: :applause:


:applause: .. indeed - it's very well-documented (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11021030&postcount=6):



Chuck Daly: "It doesn't entail me playing you necessarily. It's our five.... playing.... you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gCMWuCdsGQ&t=27m41s



Bill Laimbeer: "We didn't even think about Scottie Pippen. It was Michael Jordan and the Jordannaires - and you can't win championships like that with only 1 player."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h07m33s



Scottie Pippen: "Maybe it was the pressure. As the pressure grew, the pounding grew." - this was Pippen in the Bad Boys documentary admitting how the pressure caused him to disappear in 1990 ECF Game 7 - this cost the Bulls a trip to the Finals that year.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s



Phil Jackson: "Don't leave Michael all alone here. It's not TIME yet." - this was Phil Jackson during a huddle in the 1991 NBA Finals, showing how the everyday game plan was to leave Michael alone and let him do everything himself down the stretch of games.


Jordan not having a star teammate that commanded a double-team is why he was forced to produce the most raw offensive production of all time (as measured by points + assists):

43.3 points, 7.4 assists, and 4.0 turnovers per 100 possessions for his playoff career... 43.9 points and 8.4 assists and 4.2 turnovers through the age of 30... no one's close.
.

[Roundball_Rock]

The above is correct, but I disagree with the conclusion. Lebron's strength and size means that for any other wing he is a horrible mismatch and he will own them. In reality, he's a mismatch for any player in the game - possibly ever. If you're bigger than him, you're not anywhere near as quick or skilled. If you're faster and more nimble, you're not anywhere close to his strength and size.

Lebron simply doesn't need that extra agility to change direction because once he gains speed in the direction he is going there is no stopping him. Only Barkley is superior to him at the rim; Lebron is simply a freak. It's more than just basketball; he might be the greatest physical specimen we've ever seen.

Good points.

[RedBlackAttack]

The above is correct, but I disagree with the conclusion. Lebron's strength and size means that for any other wing he is a horrible mismatch and he will own them. In reality, he's a mismatch for any player in the game - possibly ever. If you're bigger than him, you're not anywhere near as quick or skilled. If you're faster and more nimble, you're not anywhere close to his strength and size.

Lebron simply doesn't need that extra agility to change direction because once he gains speed in the direction he is going there is no stopping him. Only Barkley is superior to him at the rim; Lebron is simply a freak. It's more than just basketball; he might be the greatest physical specimen we've ever seen.
I'd agree with that. Physically, he is probably the most amazing athlete I've ever seen. Notice I didn't say basketball player... To be as big as Karl Malone and play the way he has (perimeter oriented) over the course of an 11-year long career is almost unnatural.

The other thing that is underrated about James is his durability. For 70+ games every year playing 40+ minutes a night for the regular season and long playoff runs (since 2006) for over a decade and to never suffer a single noteworthy injury is inhuman.

The only guy I have seen in my lifetime who compares to him in terms of physical gifts is Bo Jackson and we all know how that ended. His absurd athleticism actually made possible an injury that no one else in the history of the NFL could have probably even sustained. His legs were so powerful that he ripped his entire hip out of joint while running down the sidelines.

LeBron is a similar athletic marvel, but he doesn't get hurt... ever.


Now, am I saying that he is the best player ever? No. I'd still take Jordan comfortably over James because he excelled in areas way beyond his (insane in its own right) athleticism.

But, if you are comparing them just on physical gifts alone, LeBron is in a league by himself for guys I have seen in my lifetime.

[3ball]

.
Lebron's two-foot vert:


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Lebron_Stuffed_after_Jumping_o_3ab12cd053656a6016f 9ea4e26ad4fa5.gif




Jordan two-foot vert (exact same spot):


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_dunks_on_Defender_off_42e80f0371b2ccd1311ad dc612220fdc.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_over_Orlando_Woolridge_2992ff3b66bec8217afc 9045864e3b42.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/a88b76f03bde2d1e73d6223789b0968a.gif





Lebron Jab-Step, Drive Left on Baseline


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/d7821303425e7393bf4711800224841e.gif




Jordan Jab-Step, Drive Left on Baseline


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_with_the_Baseline_HopSt_f3dde741dd9364e1d67 d426c26375b8c.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/e1d648dd77ad5a827bad9dae0c1f6dde.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b65300f8b710f908d7b963f480a3e929.gif


:rolleyes:.. NO COMPARISON
.

[LeBird]

3ball you need to get Jordan's genitals out of your face.

[ShawkFactory]

.
Lebron's two-foot vert:


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Lebron_Stuffed_after_Jumping_o_3ab12cd053656a6016f 9ea4e26ad4fa5.gif




Jordan two-foot vert (exact same spot):


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_dunks_on_Defender_off_42e80f0371b2ccd1311ad dc612220fdc.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_over_Orlando_Woolridge_2992ff3b66bec8217afc 9045864e3b42.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/a88b76f03bde2d1e73d6223789b0968a.gif





Lebron Jab-Step, Drive Left on Baseline


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/d7821303425e7393bf4711800224841e.gif




Jordan Jab-Step, Drive Left on Baseline


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_with_the_Baseline_HopSt_f3dde741dd9364e1d67 d426c26375b8c.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/e1d648dd77ad5a827bad9dae0c1f6dde.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b65300f8b710f908d7b963f480a3e929.gif


:rolleyes:.. NO COMPARISON
.
Two tiny (and cherry-picked) aspects of athleticism...