Pippen Vs Isiah

[aj1987]

Who higher on the all time list?

Discuss.

[Clyde]

Who higher on the all time list?

Discuss.

Probably Pippen. Zeke was great, but Pippen was a wayyyy better defender, better shooter, longer career, and more rings.

Actually it's Pippen and it's not even close

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/p/scottie_pippen_vs_isiah_thomas.htm

[mehyaM24]

i would personally take pippen.. his best assets (defense, playmaking, leadership etc) are generally regarded "higher" than isiah's.

what thomas has an advantage in IS in points. guy was a deadly scorer in the late 80s.. probably the best scoring point guard of all time.. if i'm building around a player, though, i'm taking scottie (have no problem with anyone saying isiah either).

how about you OP?

[aj1987]

i would personally take pippen.. his best assets (scoring, playmaking, leadership etc) are generally regarded "higher" than isiah's.

what thomas has an advantage in IS in points. guy was a deadly scorer in the late 80s.. probably the best scoring point guard of all time.. if i'm building around a player, though, i'm taking scottie - but have no problem with anyone saying isiah either.

what about you OP?


Probably Pippen. Zeke was great, but Pippen was a wayyyy better defender, better shooter, longer career, and more rings.

Actually it's Pippen and it's not even close

I'd take Pippen as well. Was just wondering why people have Isiah in their top 20 and not players like Pippen, Wade, etc..

[24-Inch_Chrome]

I love Isiah but I've gotta go with Pippen.

[mehyaM24]

I'd take Pippen as well. Was just wondering why people have Isiah in their top 20 and not players like Pippen, Wade, etc..
not enough scoring. for whatever reason, a lot of fans either don't pay attention to anything BUT the scoreboard, or just simply don't care about defense and other various intangibles.

players like lebron, pippen, wilt, oscar, & hakeem, some of the greatest ALL AROUND players ever, should ALL be regarded higher imho.

[Milbuck]

Lmfao at anyone who has Isiah over Wade.

[aj1987]

not enough scoring. for whatever reason, a lot of fans either don't pay attention to anything BUT the scoreboard, or just simply don't care about defense and other various intangibles.

players like lebron, pippen, wilt, oscar, & hakeem, some of the greatest ALL AROUND players ever, should ALL be regarded higher imho.

Love how you mention them and not MJ, Bird, Shaq, Russell, Duncan, etc.. :oldlol:

[mehyaM24]

Love how you mention them and not MJ, Bird, Shaq, Russell, Duncan, etc.. :oldlol:
sigh.. nevermind

[greatest-ever]

Lmfao at anyone who has Isiah over Wade.
This.

[aj1987]

sigh.. nevermind
MJ, Bird, Shaq, Duncan, and Russell played on both sides of the court. Good-GOAT defenders, good-GOAT scorers, and good-great passers.

[greatest-ever]

I rank pippen in the top 30 while Thomas would be right outside of it, like 31-32.

I like Pippen because i think he had more impact with his all around game while Thomas' impact was mostly on the offensive end and in which he wasn't even that efficient.

Anyone who has thomas in their top 20 shouldn't be taken seriously.

[bdreason]

As a #1 option and team leader, give me Zeke. I don't see Pippen leading a team to a title.


In fact, the only scenario in which I would take Pippen over Zeke is if the team already had an alpha dog, #1 option perimeter player, like MJ. With a great big, like Shaq, Duncan, or Hakeem... I would take Zeke as well.

[PJR]

Isiah spearheaded the attack for a team that beat Prime Bird, Magic, and Jordan to win two titles.

Zeke with ease. And considering how much he hates Pippen, Isiah would be insulted by this comparison lol.

[SHAQisGOAT]

As a #1 option and team leader, give me Zeke. I don't see Pippen leading a team to a title.


In fact, the only scenario in which I would take Pippen over Zeke is if the team already had an alpha dog, #1 option perimeter player, like MJ. With a great big, like Shaq, Duncan, or Hakeem... I would take Zeke as well.

Depends on the situation but I'd probably say that too...

On the all-time list I'd probably have Pippen a little higher but the difference is minimal and I won't argue against having Zeke above.



Probably Pippen. Zeke was great, but Pippen was a wayyyy better defender, better shooter, longer career, and more rings.

Actually it's Pippen and it's not even close

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/p/scottie_pippen_vs_isiah_thomas.htm

Better shooter? How you figure?

Not even close? C'mon, get real... It's very close, either way.

[mehyaM24]

Isiah spearheaded the attack for a team that beat Prime Bird, Magic, and Jordan to win two titles.

Zeke with ease. And considering how much he hates Pippen, Isiah would be insulted by this comparison lol.
i'll give you beating jordan & the bulls, however, he "beat" magic & bird when they were injured and/or at the end of their teams apex - in fact, magic missed a game and change in the 1989 finals, and byron scott, their second leading scorer, missed the ENTIRE finals with injury.

[greatest-ever]

I think a lot of people don't realize how lucky Thomas was to have that stingy Pistons defense, we've seen that teams can win a title on defense alone (04 pistons as one example) so he was fortunate. One of his title runs he shot like 48 ts%, their defense allowed for him to be inefficient and still win.

[Clyde]

Depends on the situation but I'd probably say that too...

On the all-time list I'd probably have Pippen a little higher but the difference is minimal and I won't argue against having Zeke above.




Better shooter? How you figure?

Not even close? C'mon, get real... It's very close, either way.

How'd Zeke do on The Dream Team?? That's right he didn't.

Pippen has better #'s, way better athlete, defender, ability to play multiple positions, etc.

Frankly Pippen had a way better career, which places him much higher on an all time list.

[mehyaM24]

I think a lot of people don't realize how lucky Thomas was to have that stingy Pistons defense, we've seen that teams can win a title on defense alone (04 pistons as one example) so he was fortunate. One of his title runs he shot like 48 ts%, their defense allowed for him to be inefficient and still win.
excellent post. i totally forgot about his series' vs boston & chicago in 89. he played terrible by his standards - and the pistons were still able to take care of business with their all-time defense..

[Clyde]

I think a lot of people don't realize how lucky Thomas was to have that stingy Pistons defense, we've seen that teams can win a title on defense alone (04 pistons as one example) so he was fortunate. One of his title runs he shot like 48 ts%, their defense allowed for him to be inefficient and still win.

:applause:

[r0drig0lac]

Zeke easily

[SHAQisGOAT]

I think a lot of people don't realize how lucky Thomas was to have that stingy Pistons defense, we've seen that teams can win a title on defense alone (04 pistons as one example) so he was fortunate. One of his title runs he shot like 48 ts%, their defense allowed for him to be inefficient and still win.

That's true but they were also lucky to have him, he was their #1 option plus heart and soul of that team.

He also had a title run averaging 20.5/5.5/8.2/2.2 shooting 46.3/47.1/79.4, while having one of the GOAT Finals performances putting up 27.6/5.2/7.0 on 54.2/68.8/74.2 shooting, coming up really clutch and his team winning 4-1.

They had a great team and a great coach, but it doesn't take from the fact that Isiah was a great player.

[greatest-ever]

That's true but they were also lucky to have him, he was their #1 option plus heart and soul of that team.

He also had a title run averaging 20.5/5.5/8.2/2.2 shooting 46.3/47.1/79.4, while having one of the GOAT Finals performances putting up 27.6/5.2/7.0 on 54.2/68.8/74.2 shooting, coming up really clutch and his team winning 4-1.

They had a great team and a great coach, but it doesn't take from the fact that Isiah was a great player.
I agree.

I was just pointing out that the defense deserves a lot of credit. No they wouldn't win without thomas, but at the same time i don't think Thomas can win without a great defense.

[L.Kizzle]

I think a lot of people don't realize how lucky Thomas was to have that stingy Pistons defense, we've seen that teams can win a title on defense alone (04 pistons as one example) so he was fortunate. One of his title runs he shot like 48 ts%, their defense allowed for him to be inefficient and still win.
One guy played with Jordan yet Zeke is the lucy one ...:biggums:

[greatest-ever]

One guy played with Jordan yet Zeke is the lucy one ...:biggums:
They both had good circumstances but i didn't make my pick for Pippen based on circumatance, i just think he was a little better player.

[L.Kizzle]

Wasn't Pippen the one that quit vs Zeke, yet he's getting most of the votes?

Thomas ain't quiting ever and give you two rings.

[houston]

zeke no doubt

[knicksman]

Its harder to build around pippen than isiah. I cant remember a team winning with just a pippen unless he has 3 other pippens on the floor. Isiah and its not even close. Hes even better than bran. 2>>2* and you wanna compare him to just a pippen.

[Roundball_Rock]

He also had a title run averaging 20.5/5.5/8.2/2.2

This is why the "option" stuff is overplayed. Pippen put up similar numbers with vastly superior defense during several title runs.

[Mr.Kite]

I have isiah at #12-13 on the all time.

Some of you fools be picking pippen over isiah :facepalm

that just means pippen is higher than bran

[SouBeachTalents]

I have isiah at #12-13 on the all time.

Some of you fools be picking pippen over isiah :facepalm

that just means pippen is higher than bran

:biggums:

[T_L_P]

Love how you mention them and not MJ, Bird, Shaq, Russell, Duncan, etc.. :oldlol:

mehyaM24 thinks Shaq was the Heat's best player in the 06 Playoffs. :oldlol:

He's a sniffling troll who cherrypicks stats to suit his agenda (he uses RAPM numbers with incomplete data as the basis for saying Pippen > Jordan).

He does have a point though. I'd probably draft Pippen before Isiah. The defense and playmaking outweigh the scoring.

[Roundball_Rock]

Here are Isiah's lines during his 2 title runs:

1989 18/4/8/2/0 on 41%
1990 21/6/8/2/0 on 46%

Here are Pippen's three best lines during title runs:

22/9/6/3/1 on 50%
20/9/7/2/1 on 47%
20/7/6/2/1 on 47%

So other than dishing out 1-2 more assists per game what does Isiah have the edge on? This is before even getting into defense. As I said earlier, the "option" stuff ignores what people actually did on the court.

A key difference between the two is longevity. Isiah was out the league at age 32 and he ceased being elite prior to that.

[mehyaM24]

mehyaM24 thinks Shaq was the Heat's best player in the 06 Playoffs. :oldlol:

He's a sniffling troll who cherrypicks stats to suit his agenda (he uses RAPM numbers with incomplete data as the basis for saying Pippen > Jordan).

He does have a point though. I'd probably draft Pippen before Isiah. The defense and playmaking outweigh the scoring.

lol @ distorting my views. never claimed pippen > jordan, only that his defensive impact and leadership arguably played just as a pivotal of a role.

far as shaq and 2006 goes? uhhh i provided a ton of evidence and data to suggest shaq arguably had more impact than wade..

for starters: http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2006.html

[TheMan]

i'll give you beating jordan & the bulls, however, he "beat" magic & bird when they were injured and/or at the end of their teams apex - in fact, magic missed a game and change in the 1989 finals, and byron scott, their second leading scorer, missed the ENTIRE finals with injury.
Now that's nitpicking, it isn't Thomas/Pistons fault those guys couldn't stay healthy...

So if you bring that up against Thomas/Detroit, is fair to say the LeBron would be 0-3 vs Duncan and the Spurs had Tony Parker not gotten injured in the 2013 Finals?

[SouBeachTalents]

Now that's nitpicking, it isn't Thomas/Pistons fault those guys couldn't stay healthy...

So if you bring that up against Thomas/Detroit, is fair to say the LeBron would be 0-3 vs Duncan and the Spurs had Tony Parker not gotten injured in the 2013 Finals?

Only problem with that is, Parker isn't quite on the same level as Magic or Bird doe

[knicksman]

2/2 vs 0. Anyone with a brain kows which to build. Even 2/2 is better than 2/5

[SouBeachTalents]

2/2 vs 0. Anyone with a brain kows which to build. Even 2/2 is better than 2/5

Horry's 7/7, the ****ing GOAT :bowdown: :bowdown:

[bizil]

I can see arguments for both. But in my opinion, Isiah can do more to will a team to a title. A flat out dominant scorer and great passer in one. Early in Isiah's career WHEN HE HAD to put up points, he was putting up seasons of 23 points just like Pippen. BUT Isiah was a pass first 6'1 PG who just happened to have alpha dog abilities. Not to mention is the third GOAT PG and arguably the greatest little man (under 6'2) of all time.

He would run the show and THEN DOMINATE a game scoring in a manner Pippen never could. And Isiah held the single season all time assist average with 13.9 a game. So peak wise, give me Isiah's 21-23 points, 12 assists a night, alpha dog ability, leadership, and clutch shit over Pippen. Isiah's 21-23 points WERE MUCH MORE IMPACTFUL than Pippen's 21-23 points.

GOAT wise, Pip makes up ground because of what he achieved and how he redefined the SF position. But even GOAT wise, I gotta lean to Zeke as well. The next best player Isiah had on his team for the long haul was Dumars. And yet at 6'1 he dominated and won rings! And in the NBA Golden Era! That holds more weight to me than what Pip did GOAT wise.

[TheMan]

I have isiah at #12-13 on the all time.

Some of you fools be picking pippen over isiah :facepalm

that just means pippen is higher than bran
What the hell...

It's LBJ > Pip > Thomas

[knicksman]

Only problem with that is, Parker isn't quite on the same level as Magic or Bird doe


but those teams are still better than spurs collection of role players.

[mehyaM24]

Now that's nitpicking, it isn't Thomas/Pistons fault those guys couldn't stay healthy...

obviously - but its something to keep in perspective when posters claim isiah "beat magic's lakers" etc..

btw, magic missed 2 games in the 1989 finals (pulled hamstring), unlike parker, who actually played the entire series. not sure why you have this bizarre obsession with me "liking" lebron... he's not even my favorite player of all time. :oldlol:

[SouBeachTalents]

but those teams are still better than spurs collection of role players.

I'd say Bird and Magic were more valuable to their teams in the late '80's than Parker was to his in 2013

[knicksman]

I'd say Bird and Magic were more valuable to their teams in the late '80's than Parker was to his in 2013

But their teams are still better without them than spurs without parker.

[TheMan]

Only problem with that is, Parker isn't quite on the same level as Magic or Bird doe
I know that but you don't play against past legends but the team in front of you. Plus Parker is a FMVP and no slouch either.

[mehyaM24]

I'd say Bird and Magic were more valuable to their teams in the late '80's than Parker was to his in 2013

who cares? magic actually missed HALF the games in that series.. lol

[Roundball_Rock]

1989 playoffs

Isiah 18/4/8 41%
Dumars 18/3/6 46%
Johnson 14/3/3 46%
Aguirre 13/4/2 49%
Laimbeer 10/8/2 47%

Rodman averaged 10 boards in 24 minutes a game.

1990 playoffs

Isiah 21/6/8 46%
Dumars 18/2/5 46%
Edwards 14/4/1 49%
Laimbeer 11/11/1 46%
Aguirre 11/5/1 47%

Seven players on the 90' team averaged double digit scoring in the playoffs.

Why are people acting as if Isiah "carried" the Pistons? He was the best player on a very balanced team whose strength was its defense.

[Wade's Rings]

obviously - but its something to keep in perspective when posters claim isiah "beat magic's lakers" etc..

btw, magic missed 2 games in the 1989 finals (pulled hamstring), unlike parker, who actually played the entire series. not sure why you have this bizarre obsession with me "liking" lebron... he's not even my favorite player of all time. :oldlol:

If Thomas doesn't get hurt The Pistons win in 88.

[mehyaM24]

If Thomas doesn't get hurt The Pistons win in 88.

disagree. if you play, its all fair game imo.

the lakers literally had byron scott, their 2nd or 3rd best player ATT, miss the entire series.. magic missed 2/4 of those finals..

[knicksman]

1989 playoffs

Isiah 18/4/8 41%
Dumars 18/3/6 46%
Johnson 14/3/3 46%
Aguirre 13/4/2 49%
Laimbeer 10/8/2 47%

Rodman averaged 10 boards in 24 minutes a game.

1990 playoffs

Isiah 21/6/8 46%
Dumars 18/2/5 46%
Edwards 14/4/1 49%
Laimbeer 11/11/1 46%
Aguirre 11/5/1 47%

Seven players on the 90' team averaged double digit scoring in the playoffs.

Why are people acting as if Isiah "carried" the Pistons? He was the best player on a very balanced team whose strength was its defense.

because 2/2 is better than 2/5. If you think pippen is better than bran, then fine

[bizil]

If u are a true basketball fan ask yourself this question. Who would u rather have willing your team down the stretch scoring the rock? For me its EASILY Isiah over Pippen. Not even debatable. As the Pistons added more talent, he scaled back his scoring. Dumars was a great passing SG so he and Zeke would switch off.

The Pistons had a great defense of course and they had a lethal scoring SF in Aguirre. So they split the scoring pie beautifully. And relied hugely on their legendary defense.

BUT WHEN IT WAS TIME to take over a game, Isiah could do it better than ANY GUARD in the world in that era besides Jordan. With peak Zeke, u are pretty much getting a mix of peak Stockton (pass first floor general, tough as nails, great leadership) and peak Iverson (supreme alpha dog scoring ability, epic handles, clutch, heart) in one.

[Dro]

I'm taking Isaiah, surprised so many would take Pippen.......

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

If u are a true basketball fan ask yourself this question. Who would u rather have willing your team down the stretch scoring the rock? For me its EASILY Isiah over Pippen. Not even debatable. As the Pistons added more talent, he scaled back his scoring. Dumars was a great passing SG so he and Zeke would switch off.

The Pistons had a great defense of course and they had a lethal scoring SF in Aguirre. So they split the scoring pie beautifully. And relied hugely on their legendary defense.

BUT WHEN IT WAS TIME to take over a game, Isiah could do it better than ANY GUARD in thew world in that era besides Jordan. With peak Zeke, u are pretty much getting a mix of peak Stockton and peak Iverson in one.

On the flipside of that coin, I wouldn't want anybody other than Pippen from that era (well...maybe Mike) defending Thomas' last minute possessions. :pimp:

[TheMan]

I'm taking, surprised so many would take Pippen.......
A lot of us value defense, offensive versatility and athleticism over small defensively challenged inefficient volume chuckers

[Roundball_Rock]

Good points, bizil. I just think people get too caught up in labels and tend to assume every best player on a championship team was similarly important to his team. He was closer to Billups' role than he was to that of Bird or Jordan. Pippen's statistical contributions as the "second option" rivals that of several "first options" on championship teams--including Isiah.

knicksman, Isiah was 2/3, not 2/2 in the Finals. He also lost twice in the ECF, but it is better to lose there than in the Finals, right? :oldlol:


On the flipside of that coin, I wouldn't want anybody other than Pippen from that era (well...maybe Mike) defending Thomas' last minute possessions.

:pimp:

TheMan, good point. If Isiah was such a great scorer why was he so inefficient, especially relative to other perimeter players of his era? He was indeed a great scorer but the question is of degree. Bizil is comparing him to AI, a 4x scoring champ. Yeah, AI was not efficient either but he was a 30-33 ppg scorer. If he limited himself to 18-20 ppg like Isiah his efficiency would have been better.

[andgar923]

There is no denying that Zeke was the heart and soul of that team. His team went as he went.

I remember people actually used to argue over zeke or magic, that's how good he was.

Stats don't always show the full story.

If i'm starting a franchise there is no hesitation as to who i'm choosing.

Zeke 10/10 times.

Pip is a great complimentary player, but hes just that.

[bizil]

Good points, bizil. I just think people get too caught up in labels and tend to assume every best player on a championship team was similarly important to his team. He was closer to Billups' role than he was to that of Bird or Jordan. Pippen's statistical contributions as the "second option" rivals that of several "first options" on championship teams--including Isiah.

knicksman, Isiah was 2/3, not 2/2 in the Finals. He also lost twice in the ECF, but it is better to lose there than in the Finals, right? :oldlol:



:pimp:

TheMan, good point. If Isiah was such a great scorer why was he so inefficient, especially relative to other perimeter players of his era? He was indeed a great scorer but the question is of degree. Bizil is comparing him to AI, a 4x scoring champ. Yeah, AI was not efficient either but he was a 30-33 ppg scorer. If he limited himself to 18-20 ppg like Isiah his efficiency would have been better.

You made good points too. But I'm talking about all of Isiah's career as well as his skillset. Not just the Finals. As the Pistons added to the roster, Isiah stepped back from dominating scoring like he used to. Isiah proved LONG BEFORE he was a dominant scorer from the PG position. When I compared him to AI, I meant in terms of being a dominant scoring small guard. I think AI is the better scorer though. U bring up Billups, but ONCE AGAIN Isiah could go off scoring in a fashion Billups NEVER COULD!

Isiah played within the team concept and played to the Pistons defense. U saw what Isiah did on one ankle against the Lakers in the Finals. However, with Dumars, Vinnie, and Aguirre, he didn't have to dominate scoring as much as he did early in his career.

In terms of the all around sense, Pippen is the better player. But the better all around player ISN'T the better player in all cases.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Here are Isiah's lines during his 2 title runs:

1989 18/4/8/2/0 on 41%
1990 21/6/8/2/0 on 46%

Here are Pippen's three best lines during title runs:

22/9/6/3/1 on 50%
20/9/7/2/1 on 47%
20/7/6/2/1 on 47%

So other than dishing out 1-2 more assists per game what does Isiah have the edge on? This is before even getting into defense. As I said earlier, the "option" stuff ignores what people actually did on the court.

A key difference between the two is longevity. Isiah was out the league at age 32 and he ceased being elite prior to that.

:applause:

[imdaman99]

Gimme Zeke. 1 is an alpha that played on a broken leg in the playoffs. The other benches himself at the end of a PIVOTAL playoff game.

[Roundball_Rock]

imdaman/knicksfan: I hate Scottie Pippen

http://www.thisisyourconscience.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/CT_Why-you-mad.jpg

[knicksman]

http://www.thisisyourconscience.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/CT_Why-you-mad.jpg


LOL I actually like pippen but he is so overrated. Hes not a player you can build around but people act like hes top 3 player every season just because of 1 season where he wants to prove that they can win without jordan. But once the honeymoon period is over? LOL hes crying to be traded.

[bizil]

Gimme Zeke. 1 is an alpha that played on a broken leg in the playoffs. The other benches himself at the end of a PIVOTAL playoff game.

Well said! It's INTERESTING how Pippen benched himself in a playoff game. It seems many in the media or Bulls fans just gloss over that. The crazy part is Phil made the RIGHT CALL!! And to be frank, u can tell there is no love lost between Isiah and Pip based on their interviews or panel appearances in the last 3-4 years! lol

[Black Mamba's B]

i'll give you beating jordan & the bulls, however, he "beat" magic & bird when they were injured and/or at the end of their teams apex - in fact, magic missed a game and change in the 1989 finals, and byron scott, their second leading scorer, missed the ENTIRE finals with injury.

Same can be said with Jordan. He beat an even older Magic and injured Worthy and Scott. Beat an old pistons team just to make the finals.

The lack of respect for zeke is comical, i don't even like the Pistons

[Roundball_Rock]

LOL I actually like pippen but he is so overrated. Hes not a player you can build around but people act like hes top 3 player every season just because of 1 season where he wants to prove that they can win without jordan. But once the honeymoon period is over? LOL hes crying to be traded.

Knicks fans hate Pippen more than anyone on ISH other than MJ stans. :lol

[mehyaM24]

Same can be said with Jordan. He beat an even older Magic and injured Worthy and Scott. Beat an old pistons team just to make the finals.

The lack of respect for zeke is comical, i don't even like the Pistons

that's true, but more than anything, i would say he "beat" a kareem-less lakers. can't take anything away from jordan or chicago, they beat whoever was put out there, but in the general sense, you are correct - not the greatest of competition.