Jalen Rose top 10 ever

[Nowitness]

http://i.imgur.com/mcucPvG.png

[JohnFreeman]

Would take prime Shaq over any version of Kobe

[Im so nba'd out]

no lebron, durant, or james harden interesting....

[noob cake]

Kobe in front of Shaq loool?

The man who carries Kobe to multiple championship behind his second option.

[russwest0]

Magic is too high.

[Real14]

Magic is too high.
Jalen rose was on crack making this list. Bird and duncan was too high, kobe was too low. Isiah or frazier should of made that list instead of hakeem.

[MastaKilla]

Bird over Kobe and Duncan :facepalm :facepalm

Kobe & Duncan on this list should round out the top 6.

Wilt should be at 9

Bird at 7

[HOoopCityJones]

Kobe in front of Shaq loool?

The man who carries Kobe to multiple championship behind his second option.

Kobe has longevity over Shaq. It's that simple.

Kobe is the Lakers franchise leader on most of their records.

Only second to probably Magic as a Laker.

Plus, 5 championships, all as a Laker. He has a case.

[fpliii]

9 players ahead of Hakeem? :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[HOoopCityJones]

9 players ahead of Hakeem? :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

Who is behind him? :confusedshrug:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Where the **** is George Mikan?

[Magic 32]

Very close to my list :applause: :applause: :applause:

Wilt is too low though.

1. MJ (greatest player)
2. Russell (greatest winner)
3. Wilt (greatest individual force)
4. Kareem (greatest longevity)
5. Magic (greatest playmaker)
6. Bird (greatest basketball mind)

7. Kobe (greatest player part 2)
8. Duncan (greatest winner part 2)
9. Shaq (greatest individual force part 2)
10 Hakeem (greatest longevity part 2)
11. Lebron (greatest playmaker part 2)
12. Oscar (greatest basketball mind Part 2)

[T_L_P]

Hakeem is better than Wilt. Oscar isn't top 10 imo.

[juju151111]

9 players ahead of Hakeem? :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:
Agreed nonsense.

[Blue&Orange]

the most respectable TOP 10 list i remember seeing.

[SugarHill]

Jalen rose was on crack making this list. Bird and duncan was too high, kobe was too low. Isiah or frazier should of made that list instead of hakeem.

:roll:

[SexSymbol]

It's his top 10, stop laughing at it like you know more than everybody else. Some people will have some players higher than the others based on what they value in basketball more.

[Akrazotile]

Who is behind him? :confusedshrug:


For starters, Kobe

[LilEddyCurry]

Very close to my list :applause: :applause: :applause:

Wilt is too low though.

1. MJ (greatest player)
2. Russell (greatest winner)
3. Wilt (greatest individual force)
4. Kareem (greatest longevity)
5. Magic (greatest playmaker)
6. Bird (greatest basketball mind)

7. Kobe (greatest player part 2)
8. Duncan (greatest winner part 2)
9. Shaq (greatest individual force part 2)
10 Hakeem (greatest longevity part 2)
11. Lebron (greatest playmaker part 2)
12. Oscar (greatest basketball mind Part 2)
I'm surprised about your list. You're not as dumb as your other posts suggest. Good list but 7-9 are interchangeable. :applause:

[HOoopCityJones]

For starters, Kobe

Is someone just salty Lebron didn't make the cut. :oldlol:

[MastaKilla]

nobody gonna even mention the fact that this dude's top 10 includes 11 people

[Akrazotile]

Is someone just salty Lebron didn't make the cut. :oldlol:


On Jalen Rose's list?

No. Nobody's salty.

[AnaheimLakers24]

bird, wilt an duncan are overrated

[Spurs5Rings2014]

duncan was too high, kobe was too low

:roll:

[Magic 32]

I'm surprised about your list. You're not as dumb as your other posts suggest. Good list but 7-9 are interchangeable. :applause:

I will take both statements as a compliment.

[SugarHill]

nobody gonna even mention the fact that this dude's top 10 includes 11 people
:roll:

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, as has been pointed out, Rose had 11 players in his Top-10, with Shaq at #9, and Hakeem and Oscar tied at #10. When asked who he should drop from the Top-10, he decided he would drop Shaq.

Makes perfect sense...

[Collie]

Looks pretty good to me. I'd switch KAJ and Russell, move Wilt in front of TD. But other than that, looks good.

[Legends66NBA7]

Seems like the usual suspects.

Like I've said before, these arbitrary lists usually have very little difference.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Not a bad list. People overrate the shit out of Hakeem, as there are in fact 9 players that can be argued better, i.e. Kobe and LeBron at the tail end of most top 10's.

[Pushxx]

LOL anybody who thinks Hakeem deserves to be over Wilt...

[BuffaloBill]

nobody gonna even mention the fact that this dude's top 10 includes 11 people




Well Shaq is included in the list so it's 10 people and 1 gorilla

[longhornfan1234]

Ok list.

1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Russell
6. Duncan
7. Bird
8. Shaq
9. Kobe
10. LeBron

[Legends66NBA7]

Not a bad list. People overrate the shit out of Hakeem, as there are in fact 9 players that can be argued better, i.e. Kobe and LeBron at the tail end of most top 10's.

I think Oscar is a bit overrated when I see him Top 10. Would have LeBron and Hakeem over him personally.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I think Oscar is a bit overrated when I see him Top 10. Would have LeBron and Hakeem over him personally.
Oh for sure. I would too. Here are the guys I believe that could be legitimately ranked "greater" than Hakeem, though:

MJ
Kareem
Russell
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
Kobe
LeBron

[LAZERUSS]

Oh for sure. I would too. Here are the guys I believe that could be legitimately ranked "greater" than Hakeem, though:

MJ
Kareem
Russell
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
Kobe
LeBron

I would add Moses, as well. And if you include his ABA years, Dr. J, too.

[konex]

I see ZERO justification for Magic, Bird, Wilt or Duncan over Kobe

[LeBird]

I see ZERO justification for Magic, Bird, Wilt or Duncan over Kobe

They're all better players. Not sure why Kobe is in top 10. Should probably be closer to 15th. :lol

[MastaKilla]

They're all better players. Not sure why Kobe is in top 10. Should probably be closer to 15th. :lol

stay mad pauk

we still lookin for lebron on the list

[Milbuck]

Can someone explain to me why Bird is so often ranked ahead of Duncan and Kobe because of peak play, yet consistently ranked ahead of Shaq despite (clearly, imo) having an inferior peak as well as one less ring? I think we need to have some consistency here, because every time we have these lists and they're dictated strongly by peaks, Shaq seems to get shafted.

[Done_And_Done]

Not terrible list. I'd make a few alterations but not a terrible list at all. I've definitely seen much worse...

[navy]

Can someone explain to me why Bird is so often ranked ahead of Duncan and Kobe because of peak play, yet consistently ranked ahead of Shaq despite (clearly, imo) having an inferior peak as well as one less ring? I think we need to have some consistency here, because every time we have these lists and they're dictated strongly by peaks, Shaq seems to get shafted.
Top ten list are arbitrary. Every single player on the list is judged on a different criteria. And it makes no sense, Some get the nod for championships, others peak play, others longevity or a combination of all.

When people discuss the greatest players of all time the list is usually Jordan, Magic, and Bird plus another player that people usually pick on a whim. Message boards will put Kareem, Russel and Wilt in there.

People wont admit it, but they use their nostalgia to boost certain players over others. But nothing is stopping them since the list are as I said arbitrary.

[fpliii]

Can someone explain to me why Bird is so often ranked ahead of Duncan and Kobe because of peak play, yet consistently ranked ahead of Shaq despite (clearly, imo) having an inferior peak as well as one less ring? I think we need to have some consistency here, because every time we have these lists and they're dictated strongly by peaks, Shaq seems to get shafted.

Top ten list are arbitrary. Every single player on the list is judged on a different criteria. And it makes no sense, Some get the nod for championships, others peak play, others longevity or a combination of all.

When people discuss the greatest players of all time the list is usually Jordan, Magic, and Bird plus another player that people usually pick on a whim. Message boards will put Kareem, Russel and Wilt in there.

People wont admit it, but they use their nostalgia to boost certain players over others. But nothing is stopping them since the list are as I said arbitrary.
Agree with both of you 100%. Consistency is everything.

A lot of us do struggle with nostalgia to some extent (particularly overrating those guys who played during our formative years, and severely underrating those who came before and after), and it's admittedly tough finding a balance.

[navy]

Agree with both of you 100%. Consistency is everything.

A lot of us do struggle with nostalgia to some extent (particularly overrating those guys who played during our formative years, and severely underrating those who came before and after), and it's admittedly tough finding a balance.
Yeah, it's crazy how people obsess of players that grew up fans of watching. They simply refuse to believe that players before or after them could have possibly been better. And they will swear to you that that era had the greatest basketball that can ever be played.

It's also no coincidence that the biggest haters of certain great players also are stans of another great player.

[Milbuck]

Yeah, it's crazy how people obsess of players that grew up fans of watching. They simply refuse to believe that players before or after them could have possibly been better. And they will swear to you that that era had the greatest basketball that can ever be played.

It's also no coincidence that the biggest haters of certain great players also are stans of another great player.
It's especially evident when you go back and actually watch the footage from those older eras. I'm not saying Bird wasn't a ****ing monster...he clearly was. But the 80s were visibly and statistically higher-paced offensively, less defensively complex era. Watching footage from then..I don't see how peak Lebron, Kobe, Duncan wouldn't slaughter that era.

Lebron especially, like how the **** would they stop him? Dude is Karl Malone with MJ's athleticism, Bird's vision, good shooter, etc..all the "mental strength, men played in the 80s" narratives aside, I really can't understand how someone can rationally watch peak Lebron from like 2009-2013 and not think he'd rape that era.

Kobe too, dude was putting up 30/7/6/2/1 on 55% TS with great defense in one of the tougher eras of defense during his HGHbe days..just compare that season to like 1986 or something. Pace of 91 vs 102.1.. Dude won 45 games with his 3rd-8th options after Odom being Smush Parker, Luke Walton, Chris Mihm, Kwame Brown, Devean George, and Brian Cook...while Bird was going to battle with Kevin McHale, Robert Parish, Dennis Johnson, etc..

And Duncan dragged 20 year old Tony Parker, retirement year Robinson, pre-Manu Manu, etc to a championship putting up a finals of 24/17/5/5 with GOAT level defense..again, I'd LOVE to see how badly he'd massacre the 80s with a Kevin McHale-level wing on his team, along with guys like DJ and Parish..

And then there's Shaq :oldlol:

[Lebron23]

the most respectable TOP 10 list i remember seeing.
You're a bigger idiot than Jalen Rose. Lebron is a 2x Finals NBA MVP, 2x NBA Champion, and 4x NBA MVP. I rank him over Kobe and Hakeem. ( both with 1x MVP, and 2x finals MVP).

[navy]

It's especially evident when you go back and actually watch the footage from those older eras. I'm not saying Bird wasn't a ****ing monster...he clearly was.

Well, im not trying to disrespect Bird who is an all time shooter and passer and scoring hybrid, but just being real his resume is weak compared to the people he is usually ranked above. Doesnt mean he is a worse player (I have no problem with people thinking he is better than any other top 10 player) but I cant help but feel he gets the nod on most all time list because he was the golden boy along with Magic in that time period. Of course that has alot to do with his injury, but I dont think anyone else gets a career extrapolation like that.

[Lebron23]

Well, im not trying to disrespect Bird who is an all time shooter and passer and scoring hybrid, but just being real his resume is weak compared to the people he is usually ranked above. Doesnt mean he is a worse player (I have no problem with people thinking he is better than any other top 10 player) but I cant help but feel he gets the nod on most all time list because he was the golden boy along with Magic in that time period.


He's as good as Lebron in his prime. I think they both are tied in the 7th-8th spot, but Lebron will surpass him with another final MVP, and longevity. Lebron having a better statsline than Bird in the regular season, finals, and playoffs.

[aj1987]

Shaq at 9? :oldlol:

Dude averaged 24/11/3/1/2 on 58% over a 19 year career with 4 rings, 3 FMVP's, and 1 MVP. There haven't been 9 players in the history of the game, who were better than him.

Oscar over LeBron/Dr. J/Moses? :oldlol:

[raprap]

It's especially evident when you go back and actually watch the footage from those older eras. I'm not saying Bird wasn't a ****ing monster...he clearly was. But the 80s were visibly and statistically higher-paced offensively, less defensively complex era. Watching footage from then..I don't see how peak Lebron, Kobe, Duncan wouldn't slaughter that era.

Lebron especially, like how the **** would they stop him? Dude is Karl Malone with MJ's athleticism, Bird's vision, good shooter, etc..all the "mental strength, men played in the 80s" narratives aside, I really can't understand how someone can rationally watch peak Lebron from like 2009-2013 and not think he'd rape that era.

Kobe too, dude was putting up 30/7/6/2/1 on 55% TS with great defense in one of the tougher eras of defense during his HGHbe days..just compare that season to like 1986 or something. Pace of 91 vs 102.1.. Dude won 45 games with his 3rd-8th options after Odom being Smush Parker, Luke Walton, Chris Mihm, Kwame Brown, Devean George, and Brian Cook...while Bird was going to battle with Kevin McHale, Robert Parish, Dennis Johnson, etc..

And Duncan dragged 20 year old Tony Parker, retirement year Robinson, pre-Manu Manu, etc to a championship putting up a finals of 24/17/5/5 with GOAT level defense..again, I'd LOVE to see how badly he'd massacre the 80s with a Kevin McHale-level wing on his team, along with guys like DJ and Parish..

And then there's Shaq :oldlol:
:applause:

[Lebron23]

Shaq at 9? :oldlol:

Dude averaged 24/11/3/1/2 on 58% over a 19 year career with 4 rings, 3 FMVP's, and 1 MVP. There haven't been 9 players in the history of the game, who were better than him.

Old School players being rank over him. Shaq should have been a 4x NBA MVP. (1995,2001, and 2005).

[T_L_P]

Old School players being rank over him. Shaq should have been a 4x NBA MVP. (1995,2001, and 2005).

Nash deserved it. But quite honestly, Dirk and Duncan were also more deserving than Shaq in my opinion.

Shaq missed way too many games in most years to be a legit MVP winner. He would have been a great choice in 98 had he played more.

And I really don't know about 95. Robinson dragged a pretty poor team to a lot of wins, had equally good stats, and was a much, much better defensive player.

I agree that Shaq at 9 is too low. I have him at 6.

[dreamwarrior]

Mj s too low

[bdreason]

I agree with his top 10, just not the order.

[StephHamann]

http://i.imgur.com/mcucPvG.png

:applause:

[Dragic4Life]

No Lebron.:facepalm

Kobe at 7.:facepalm

[ImKobe]

No Lebron.:facepalm

Kobe at 7.:facepalm

No Dragic either

this list is bullshit

[Marchesk]

It's especially evident when you go back and actually watch the footage from those older eras. I'm not saying Bird wasn't a ****ing monster...he clearly was. But the 80s were visibly and statistically higher-paced offensively, less defensively complex era. Watching footage from then..I don't see how peak Lebron, Kobe, Duncan wouldn't slaughter that era.

They would be great, but you had guys like Dr J, Moses Malone, Dominique Wilkins, Hakeem, Kareem, and MJ in the league. Not sure how that makes it easier on Lebron, Kobe and Duncan. You don't have the spacing you have now as the 3pt line was still new. Rules didn't favor perimeter players as much. Bigs were valued more back then.

And you had super teams in the 80s that those three would have to go up against. The East in the 80s was no joke.

[Marchesk]

Lebron especially, like how the **** would they stop him? Dude is Karl Malone with MJ's athleticism, Bird's vision, good shooter, etc..all the "mental strength, men played in the 80s" narratives aside, I really can't understand how someone can rationally watch peak Lebron from like 2009-2013 and not think he'd rape that era.

Prime Charles Barkley was a beast. Would have liked to see how Lebron would have handled the Pistons defense. You don't think Rodman could guard Lebron?

Guys like this from the 80s are forgotten:

http://www.notinhalloffame.com/UserFiles/Image/article_images/Basketball/44.%20Larry%20Nance.jpg

http://www.defynewyork.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Screen-shot-2012-06-15-at-6.00.08-PM.png

[Rolando]

:applause:

Great list! Especially where he's got Wilt. Lebron is going to creep in there though at some point.

[HOoopCityJones]

It's a good list overall, but looking at the picture of the line up itself, Duncan, Shaq and Kobe could easily be in front of Wilt, Magic and Bird imo.

[Blue&Orange]

It's especially evident when you go back and actually watch the footage from those older eras. I'm not saying Bird wasn't a ****ing monster...he clearly was. But the 80s were visibly and statistically higher-paced offensively, less defensively complex era. Watching footage from then..I don't see how peak Lebron, Kobe, Duncan wouldn't slaughter that era.

Lebron especially, like how the **** would they stop him? Dude is Karl Malone with MJ's athleticism, Bird's vision, good shooter, etc..all the "mental strength, men played in the 80s" narratives aside, I really can't understand how someone can rationally watch peak Lebron from like 2009-2013 and not think he'd rape that era.

Kobe too, dude was putting up 30/7/6/2/1 on 55% TS with great defense in one of the tougher eras of defense during his HGHbe days..just compare that season to like 1986 or something. Pace of 91 vs 102.1.. Dude won 45 games with his 3rd-8th options after Odom being Smush Parker, Luke Walton, Chris Mihm, Kwame Brown, Devean George, and Brian Cook...while Bird was going to battle with Kevin McHale, Robert Parish, Dennis Johnson, etc..

And Duncan dragged 20 year old Tony Parker, retirement year Robinson, pre-Manu Manu, etc to a championship putting up a finals of 24/17/5/5 with GOAT level defense..again, I'd LOVE to see how badly he'd massacre the 80s with a Kevin McHale-level wing on his team, along with guys like DJ and Parish..

And then there's Shaq :oldlol:
you are so dumb. Spurs are a bunch of non-athletic ancient old guys playing at a high pace, that just massacred the team with the guy that would rape the "non athletic high pace era"...

I lmao at the "can't understand how someone can rationally" part, off course you can't, you are facking retarded.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

you are so dumb. Spurs are a bunch of non-athletic ancient old guys playing at a high pace, that just massacred the team with the guy that would rape the "non athletic high pace era"...

I lmao at the "can't understand how someone can rationally" part, off course you can't, you are facking retarded.
Damn calm down. I wouldn't take it THAT far, but Millbuck shows that while old school purists can be biased, so are "whatever is happening now is the best" new wave fans, too.

[Clifton]

A very unremarkable list. I have no complaints.

Mine is different, but I like his list, because it's conservative. He's not grabbing at attention. There is nothing absurd on there just to get people talking.

I don't see why an NBA player still in his prime needs to be put on any "all-time greats" list. We can talk about how guys, year-to-year, compare with all-time greats. But it seems to me you need to have your best years behind you for a worthwhile judgment to be made.

So I'm glad Lebron is not on the list.

Now, if Jalen actually thinks that Lebron cannot hang with any of those 11 guys, I would definitely disagree.

[fragokota]

It's a good list overall, but looking at the picture of the line up itself, Duncan, Shaq and Kobe could easily be in front of Wilt, Magic and Bird imo.

Duncan has no buisness being ahead of basketball icons like Magic and Bird. These guys and their rivalry for a whole decade made the NBA a global brand as we know it today. The same goes for Shaq and Kobe. Rose's list is pretty balanced imo.

[LAZERUSS]

There is never going to be a true consensus on a Top-10, much less the order.

His list of 11 does contain the vast majority of what most educated fans would have in their Top-10's. The order is certainly debatable, but again, there is never going to be a consensus on that, either.

I really think that the list of truly great players extends to at least 15 now. By that I mean, almost any of them could be in a Top-10. Oscar, West, Moses, Dr. J. and perhaps a few others should be included in any discussion of Top-10's.

[kamil]

You're a bigger idiot than Jalen Rose. Lebron is a 2x Finals NBA MVP, 2x NBA Champion, and 4x NBA MVP. I rank him over Kobe and Hakeem. ( both with 1x MVP, and 2x finals MVP).

Sure, but he colluded his way to those championships. That said, LeBron* doesn't make the cut.

Sorry sweetheart :)

[Milbuck]

you are so dumb. Spurs are a bunch of non-athletic ancient old guys playing at a high pace, that just massacred the team with the guy that would rape the "non athletic high pace era"...

I lmao at the "can't understand how someone can rationally" part, off course you can't, you are facking retarded.
I never once brought up athleticism. Just that modern defenses are more advanced and adaptable than in the 80s. It's nothing that hasn't been analyzed extensively.

[LAZERUSS]

I never once brought up athleticism. Just that modern defenses are more advanced and adaptable than in the 80s. It's nothing that hasn't been analyzed extensively.

That explains the fact that last year the NBA shot an eFG% of .501.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

That explains the fact that last year the NBA shot an eFG% of .501.
Yeah, lets be real... If LeBron is destroying these defenses, Erving/Bird/Gervin/Jordan/King/Drexler/Wilkins would all too (all equal/better scorers). Generally speaking, the best perimeter players of all time, irregardless of era and "sophisticated defense" would adjust and get their own.

[Joyner82reload]

Jalen Rose's top 10...11 players :facepalm

[LAZERUSS]

Jalen Rose's top 10...11 players :facepalm

Not only that, but when pressed as to who he would remove if he had to narrow it down to 10, he reluctantly selected his #9, Shaq. So I guess Shaq was actually #11 all along.

[Bandito]

Would take prime Shaq over any version of Kobe
Without Kobe, Shaq doesn't win the championships. He depended on Kobe more than people think.

[PsychoBe]

Without Kobe, Shaq doesn't win the championships. He depended on Kobe more than people think.

why does everyone forget that kobe won more rings without shaq than shaq won without kobe :facepalm

dude lost numerous times with a prime penny and wade, who only made one finals appearance. shaq then fell off a cliff after that.

[LAZERUSS]

Without Kobe, Shaq doesn't win the championships. He depended on Kobe more than people think.

Agreed. It was Kobe who carried them in the WCF's in those years.

[bizil]

When it came to Jalen's list, I think the days of Big O and Hakeem in the top 10 are over. Of course u can make an argument, but at the end of the day Bron is in the top 10 GOAT. He has as many rings as Dream and more rings than Big O. He also has 4 MVPs and two gold medals. U could even argue Bron over Bird at this point as well. But its only a matter of time that Bron will pass Bird by on the list.

[MellowYellow]

When it came to Jalen's list, I think the days of Big O and Hakeem in the top 10 are over. Of course u can make an argument, but at the end of the day Bron is in the top 10 GOAT. He has as many rings as Dream and more rings than Big O. He also has 4 MVPs and two gold medals. U could even argue Bron over Bird at this point as well. But its only a matter of time that Bron will pass Bird by on the list.

Hakeem won two ships with a lot less talent, Bran won with 2 other superstars. That means something.

[aj1987]

A very unremarkable list. I have no complaints.

Mine is different, but I like his list, because it's conservative. He's not grabbing at attention. There is nothing absurd on there just to get people talking.
Are you ****ing stupid? Shaq is at #9? At WORST, he's the 6th greatest player EVER.



Erving/Bird/Gervin/Jordan/King/Drexler/Wilkins
Lets be real. LeBron is a better scorer than ALL of them except the GOAT (and arguably Bird). Are you seriously comparing LeBron to ****ing King, Drexler, Gervin, etc.? :facepalm


Hakeem won two ships with a lot less talent, Bran won with 2 other superstars. That means something.
Melo with a "superstar" in Amare and 6th MOY in JR is leading his team to a 5-20 record.

BTW, does you retarded ass not remember Drexler playing with Hakeem in '95?

[Milbuck]

Yeah, lets be real... If LeBron is destroying these defenses, Erving/Bird/Gervin/Jordan/King/Drexler/Wilkins would all too (all equal/better scorers). Generally speaking, the best perimeter players of all time, irregardless of era and "sophisticated defense" would adjust and get their own.
Lebron is better than all of them except Jordan of course. Bird obviously has a strong case but I think Lebron is better imo.

King, Drexler, Wilkins...Lebron is on another planet.

Same goes for peak Kobe, peak Wade, last year's Durant (and going forward as he hits his peak)..they're all better than any of the players you listed ever were except Jordan and Bird. Dr J is close.

Look, I'm not saying scrubs played in the 80s. My whole point is that people sensationalize the 80s as if it was some god-tier basketball, when the majority of in-depth analysis points to the modern era being more complex from a strategic standpoint. Between advanced metrics, next level scouting, etc...there is just a higher technical understanding of the game today than there was in the 80s, mostly defensively.

[aj1987]

Lebron is better than all of them except Jordan of course. Bird obviously has a strong case but I think Lebron is better imo.

King, Drexler, Wilkins...Lebron is on another planet.

Same goes for peak Kobe, peak Wade, last year's Durant..they're all better than any of the players you listed ever were except Jordan and Bird. Dr J is close.
Funny how people underrate LeBron (he's overrated by his retarded stans though). 4 MVP's, 2 Rings, and 2 FMVP's. Not to mention his 6 All-Def teams. Yet, some consider Bird to be a top 5 player and LeBron a top 10-15 player. Career average of 27 PPG, shit scorer. Career average of 7 APG, shit passer. :facepalm

[Milbuck]

Funny how people underrate LeBron (he's overrated by his retarded stans though). 4 MVP's, 2 Rings, and 2 FMVP's. Not to mention his 6 All-Def teams. Yet, some consider Bird to be a top 5 player and LeBron a top 10-15 player. Career average of 27 PPG, shit scorer. Career average of 7 APG, shit passer. :facepalm
Yeah the criteria for these lists are so laughably inconsistent that I rarely ever spend the time making one myself, nor do I seriously break down others' lists outside of shitting on the ones that are blatantly stupid. Even in the more respectable lists, somewhere along the way there's some misstep in logic, some breakdown in consistency.

Again, I hate to knock Bird...but the dude is the recipient of quite a bit of historical generosity. If we're going to put him ahead of Duncan, Kobe, etc for peak play, I see no reason why Shaq shouldn't be #4 at worst on those same lists.

[DaRkJaWs]

Here is a real list of the top 10 without any of the bullshit that makes up you dumb kids' lists:
1a: MJ
1b: Wilt
3: Kareem
4: Russell
5: Bird
6: Magic
7: Kobe
8: Lebron
9: Shaq
10: Hakeem/Duncan

That, children, is a real top 10 list without any of the bullshit. The only thing in that list I can't really defend too well is Larry at 5th because his lack of longevity due to injury. But any other listing I will defend to the very end, I dare u dumb trash to critique it, go ahead N1gs.

[aj1987]

Yeah the criteria for these lists are so laughably inconsistent that I rarely ever spend the time making one myself, nor do I seriously break down others' lists outside of shitting on the ones that are blatantly stupid. Even in the more respectable lists, somewhere along the way there's some misstep in logic, some breakdown in consistency.

Again, I hate to knock Bird...but the dude is the recipient of quite a bit of historical generosity. If we're going to put him ahead of Duncan, Kobe, etc for peak play, I see no reason why Shaq shouldn't be #4 at worst on those same lists.
Agree with you on everything.

I still can't understand why people rate Shaq over Bird. Longevity? Shaq. Impact? Shaq. Winning? Shaq. Defense? Shaq. ETC..

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Lets be real. LeBron is a better scorer than ALL of them except the GOAT (and arguably Bird). Are you seriously comparing LeBron to ****ing King, Drexler, Gervin, etc.? :facepalm

Yes their overall scoring skillsets are comparable. Midrange, footwork, fundamentals... The whole 9. There is a reason Dominique, Gervin, and Dr. J have ~2k more points in roughly the same number of seasons and minutes.

[DaRkJaWs]

Agree with you on everything.

I still can't understand why people rate Shaq over Bird. Longevity? Shaq. Impact? Shaq. Winning? Shaq. Defense? Shaq. ETC..
Impact is NOT shaq, neither is winning and the defense was pathetic save for a few seasons.

[Budadiiii]

Jalen Rose is not top 10. Not even top 100 :facepalm

You people are humongous idiots.

[DaRkJaWs]

I posted this elsewhere, for you shaq fanboys that think he was the greatest thing since sliced bread (or maybe MJ).


Shaq was lucky the other team choked in 2 of those FOUR CHAMPIONSHIPS he won. Shaq freely admits that the only reason the lakers won in 00 was because Portland choked, and he played a very small role in that 2006 victory over the Mavs, which was an epic choke job by the Mavs. and everyone now knows the Refs helped the Lakers in that game 7 Lakers vs. Kings game. So that's 3 championships that Shaq shouldn't have had, by all accounts, and we would be talking about the Loser shaq is having only won 1 championship, and how he got swept in 6 or 7 different playoffs and beaten 4-1 Twice. This from someone who is supposedly so dominant the other teams shake in fear. Yeah f****** right. So many teams have spat in Shaq's face and gotten away with it, it's pathetic. Meanwhile Poor Wilt lost by 1-4 points in 4 game 7s, and made it to the conference finals for 12 out of his 14 seasons and to the finals 6 times, and only got swept once while still being dominant in his last season in the league. Here is Wilt's Playoff record while losing, by year:
1960: 4-2 Celtics win (conf finals), 2 point loss to the Celtics in Game 6, badly injured his right shooting hand in game 3 or 4.
1961: 3-0 Nationals win (1st round), only time he got swept.
1962: 4-3 Celtics win (conf finals), by a game winning jumper by Sam Jones. Nobody expected Philly to win entering the playoffs.
1963: Only year he didn't make the playoffs, was on a terrible San Francisco team.
1964: 4-1 Celtics win in Finals.
1965: 4-3 Celtics win game 7 by 1 point (conf finals), Havlicek stole the ball.
1966: 4-1 Celtics win (conf finals), his team doesn't contribute.
1968: 4-3 Celtics win (conf finals), 4 point loss, Philly injured from top to bottom and contributed to why they lost.
1969: 4-3 Celtics win (finals), 2 point loss and although Van Breda Koff took him out, I would still put some blame on Wilt for simply playing badly due to the situation he was in and because he simply packed it in a little bit, let his teammates do all the dirty work other than rebounding.
1970: 4-3 Knicks win (finals), Wilt comes back from knee injury that was supposed to sideline him all year, took his 48 win Lakers team to game 7 vs. the 60+ win knicks.
1971: 4-1 Bucks win (conf finals), Wilt is a defensive powerhouse, but ultimately injuries and skill differential led to the Bucks beating Wilt and Lakers 4-1 in Conference Finals.
1973: 4-1 Knicks win (finals)(Key injuries limited players like West and Hairston, offensively Lakers didn't have enough to beat the Knicks, who only won by a few points in almost every game).

And just to put it on record, here is Shaqs losses:
92-93: Doesn't make playoffs.
93-94: SWEPT.
94-95: SWEPT, but does make it to the finals.
95-96: SWEPT.
96-97: Barely beat the Jazz in one game, lost 4-1.
97-98: SWEPT. JAZZ RAPE LAKERS BADLY.
98-99: SWEPT.
Again, he didn't lose in 00, but should have.
03: Can't pin blame on Shaq, but lost vs. the more powerful Spurs.
04: Lost 4-1 vs. Pistons, Shaq is anything but the dominating force his fans make him out to be, although the rest of the team doesn't help either.
05: Lost 4-3.
07: SWEPT vs. a pathetic Bulls team.
08 on: too pitiful to mention, Longevity that Wilt had Shaq didn't even have close to having.

Shaq was good, but the most dominant force? Forget about it. Only young, stupid fans would say such stupid things.

[Rodmantheman]

I would switch shaq and kobe and take big o out and put Lebron tied with Hakeem.

[Milbuck]

Impact is NOT shaq, neither is winning and the defense was pathetic save for a few seasons.
Good lord :oldlol:

Shaq was 2nd in DPOY voting in his MVP season, with a defensive RAPM equal to Duncan. And offensively he was the most dominant offensive force arguably ever.

Seriously, we're talking about a 30/14/4/3/1, 58% TS monster with elite defense...dude put up 38/17 on 61% shooting in the finals. And he was doing it in a tougher defensive era with a pace of 93.1 vs the low 100s as they were in the 80s.

Bird was never in his life better than peak Shaq.

[tpols]

Good lord :oldlol:

Shaq was 2nd in DPOY voting in his MVP season, with a defensive RAPM equal to Duncan. And offensively he was the most dominant offensive force arguably ever.

Seriously, we're talking about a 30/14/4/3/1, 58% TS monster with elite defense...dude put up 38/17 on 61% shooting in the finals. And he was doing it in a tougher defensive era with a pace of 93.1 vs the low 100s as they were in the 80s.

Bird was never in his life better than peak Shaq.

Have you ever watched Larry bird play?

[bizil]

Hakeem won two ships with a lot less talent, Bran won with 2 other superstars. That means something.

I wouldn't say A LOT LESS TALENT on that second title team. U had a prime Clyde Drexler on that squad. Prime Drexler isn't far off from Wade. Kenny Smith is better than Chalmers EVER WAS! Horry was better than Battier was. U also had Sam Cassell off the bench too. I think u are WRONG BIG TIME!! Houston ACTUALLY had the better team from top to bottom in 1995.

U also have to give Lebron credit for getting his team to 4 straight Finals as well. That's a difficult feat to accomplish. U ALSO have to realize that MOST TITLE TEAMS have at least two to three HOFers on the team. The Showtime Lakers, Shaq-Kobe Lakers, the 60's Celtics, Bird's Celtics, The West Lakers, The 70's Knicks, MJ's 2nd three peat Bulls, The Spurs, etc. So u CAN'T penalize Bron and give props to Bird, Magic, Duncan, etc. If U DON'T LIKE THE METHOD they came together in then FINE! But the goal of ANY GM is to STACK THE DECK!!!

[DaRkJaWs]

Good lord :oldlol:

Shaq was 2nd in DPOY voting in his MVP season, with a defensive RAPM equal to Duncan. And offensively he was the most dominant offensive force arguably ever.

Seriously, we're talking about a 30/14/4/3/1, 58% TS monster with elite defense...dude put up 38/17 on 61% shooting in the finals. And he was doing it in a tougher defensive era with a pace of 93.1 vs the low 100s as they were in the 80s.

Bird was never in his life better than peak Shaq.
Notice how I said but "for a few seasons"? Yeah, those seasons were his rookie year and 1999-2000. And you fanboys bring up that one season as if it was indicative of everything shaq did throughout his career, but it wasn't. Pathetic bro, just pathetic. And you are so lucky he didn't lose in the conf finals like he should have, where the blazers simply choked hard, by shaqs own admission.

[bizil]

Are you ****ing stupid? Shaq is at #9? At WORST, he's the 6th greatest player EVER.



Lets be real. LeBron is a better scorer than ALL of them except the GOAT (and arguably Bird). Are you seriously comparing LeBron to ****ing King, Drexler, Gervin, etc.? :facepalm


Melo with a "superstar" in Amare and 6th MOY in JR is leading his team to a 5-20 record.

BTW, does you retarded ass not remember Drexler playing with Hakeem in '95?

I agree! I just made a post saying a prime Drexler joined Hakeem. Drexler peak wise and GOAT wise is a top 5-6 SG of all time. Not to mention Horry, Cassell, and Kenny Smith on that squad as well. Specialist wise, u had a plethora of defensive guys and shooters too. To be frank, I think that Rockets squad in 1995 would have been the Bulls toughest challenge in the 90's if they ever met in the Finals. Their squad was BUILT to give the Bulls the toughest challenge.

The Heat were a top heavy team with Bron, Wade, and Bosh. Riley did a masterful job getting those guys to take less to win. And fitting in guys around the cap space available. But let's face it, The Mavs and Spurs exposed them. Those teams in my opinion had A LOT MORE DEPTH and SIZE to slay the Heat. So people need to pump their brakes when saying Bron had to join two superstars. If u do that, u BETTER diss Bird, Magic, Duncan, etc. WHO HAD WAY MORE DEPTH on their teams than Bron EVER HAD!! Winning is winning FLAT OUT! If u are at the park, the goal is to put together the best team. It's no different in the NBA!

[Milbuck]

Notice how I said but "for a few seasons"? Yeah, those seasons were his rookie year and 1999-2000. And you fanboys bring up that one season as if it was indicative of everything shaq did throughout his career, but it wasn't. Pathetic bro, just pathetic. And you are so lucky he didn't lose in the conf finals line he should have, where the blazers simply choked hard, by shaqs own admission.
I'm not a Lakers fan or Shaq fan, just telling it like it is...peak Shaq was just a better, more impactful player than any version of Bird. You can bring up his less than stellar seasons but at their best, Shaq > Bird on both ends of the floor. And for all the flack you want to give Shaq's defense, peak Shaq was a DPOY-level defender and his impact on that end shits on Bird's. Sorry if that bugs the shit out of you, but it's the truth.

[tpols]

I can see the argument against Shaq.. He had a poor attitude and work ethic for most of his career.. And we all know the phrase 'lead by example'.. Shaq didn't put work in like bird who was shooting 1000 jumpers a day in the summer while Shaq was making movies and eating.. A lot.

Shaq is the better individual force but not half the team player.. Elevating teammates, hitting them in their spots, reassurance in crunch time bird can put a game away while Shaq is a liability. There's many intangible reasons

If you gave bird and Shaq equal supporting casts Shaq might put up better numbers but he isn't making all of his teammates, and the overall team flow better at nearly the same rate as Larry bird.

[pauk]

Shaq-Wilt > Duncan-Kobe
Lebron > Oscar-Hakeem

Except for that mistake, not a bad list.

[Marchesk]

Same goes for peak Kobe, peak Wade, last year's Durant (and going forward as he hits his peak)..they're all better than any of the players you listed ever were except Jordan and Bird. Dr J is close.

But to put things into context, here are some peaks from the 80s from guys not named Bird, Barkley, Dominique, Drexler, MJ, Magic, K. Malone, Dr J, Kareem, Hakeem, Ewing, Worthy, Isiah.

SG George Gervin 81/82:
32.3 on 50%

SF Benard King 84/85:
31.6/5.5/3.6 on 53%

C Moses Malone 81/82:
31.1/14.7 on 51.3%

SF Adrian Dantley 80-84 (4 seasons):
30.6 on 56.7%

Mark Aquire 83/84:
29.5/5.4/3.5 on 52.4%

SF Alex English 82/83
28.4/7.3/4.8 on 51.6%

SG Dale Ellis 88/89:
27.5 on 50.1% and 47.8% 3PT

SF Kiki Vandeweigh 86/87:
26.9 on 52.3%

SF Chris Mullin 88/89:
26.5/5.9/5.1 on 50.9%

For All Around Play:

PG Fat Lever 88/89:
19.8/9.3/7.9 with 2.7 steals

SG Alvin Robertson 87/88:
19.6/6.1/6.8 with 3 steals

[bizil]

For me GOAT criteria includes:

Solo Accolades
Team Accolades
Longevity being great
Numbers
Impact on the L (which can include redefining a position, transcending the sport, rules change because of u, etc.)

So when looking at these factors, how is Bron NOT a top 10 GOAT at this point. He has all of these factors in SPADES!! And to top it off, he's the most versatile player of all time! He's already played just as long as Larry Bird. If u think Bird peak wise is better than Bron then fine. I can't argue with u. But GOAT wise, it's TIME TO HAVE THAT DISCUSSION! The fact Jalen had Bird at 5 and Bron NOT EVEN listed was my main qualm.

Bron ALSO totally redefined the SF position. He basically combined:

- Magic's height and passing ability
- Big O's triple double shit while still able to lead the league in scoring
- Pippen's point forward and defensive versatility
- Dr. J's freak athletic ability (Bron reminds of Doc more than anybody in terms of his one foot takeoff ability and gliding across the court)
- Karl Malone's size (6'8 260 pounds)

Bron could also be the first guy to have 20,000 points and 10,000 assists in a career as well. And if u are projecting, he has a shot to have 30,000 points, 10,000 assists, and 10,000 rebounds in a career.

[tpols]

Shaq-Wilt > Duncan-Kobe
Lebron > Oscar-Hakeem

Except for that mistake, not a bad list.

I think there's a reason Bird/Russell/Magic are all ranked high and shaq/wilt low.

Jalen clearly prefers winning and leadership first and foremost.

[DaRkJaWs]

I'm not a Lakers fan or Shaq fan, just telling it like it is...peak Shaq was just a better, more impactful player than any version of Bird. You can bring up his less than stellar seasons but at their best, Shaq > Bird on both ends of the floor. And for all the flack you want to give Shaq's defense, peak Shaq was a DPOY-level defender and his impact on that end shits on Bird's. Sorry if that bugs the shit out of you, but it's the truth.
I'll give you peak shaq over peak bird, but PRIME bird beats out PRIME shaq pretty convincingly. And don't forget bird could accumulate big stats too.

[DaRkJaWs]

I think there's a reason Bird/Russell/Magic are all ranked high and shaq/wilt low.

Jalen clearly prefers winning and leadership first and foremost.
I understand that, but it completely ignores nuance in understanding the history of the game and just protects his list from criticism.

[Milbuck]

But to put things into context, here are some peaks from the 80s from guys not named Bird, Barkley, Dominique, Drexler, MJ, Magic, K. Malone, Dr J, Kareem, Hakeem, Ewing.

C Moses Malone 81/82:
31.1/14.7 on 51.3%

SG George Gervin 81/82:
32.3 on 50%

SF Benard King 84/85:
31.6/5.5/3.6 on 53%

SF Adrian Dantley 80-84 (4 seasons):
30.6 on 56.7%

SF Alex English 82/83
28.4/7.3/4.8 on 51.6%

SF Kiki Vandeweigh 86/87:
26.9 on 52.3%

SG Dale Ellis 88/89:
27.5 on 50.1% and 47.8% 3PT

SF Chris Mullin 88/89:
26.5/5.9/5.1 on 50.9%
And how much of those numbers had to do with the vast difference in pace, average points scored, etc? And again, the less advanced/complex defensive schemes?

Is Adrian Dantley really averaging 31ppg on 57% shooting over 4 seasons in today's NBA?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

And how much of those numbers had to do with the vast difference in pace, average points scored, etc? And again, the less advanced/complex defensive schemes?

Is Adrian Dantley really averaging 31ppg on 57% shooting over 4 seasons in today's NBA?
How much does Stephen Curry looking like the Jesus Christ of combo guards have to with the lax perimeter rules and complete emasculation of physical basketball in today's game?

Kobe, a shell of his formerself, is leading the NBA in scoring. Think about that for a second. :oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

source? When did he make this shit?


BTW, as has been pointed out, Rose had 11 players in his Top-10, with Shaq at #9, and Hakeem and Oscar tied at #10. When asked who he should drop from the Top-10, he decided he would drop Shaq.

Makes perfect sense...

:biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :roll: :roll:

LMFAO was there a reaction to this by the others?


Agreed. It was Kobe who carried them in the WCF's in those years.

by "those years" you mean "1 of the 3 years" ? where the gap was minimal?

[YouGotServed]

Kobe, a shell of his formerself, is leading the NBA in scoring. Think about that for a second. :oldlol:

http://blogsohardsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/james-harden.jpg

[Marchesk]

And how much of those numbers had to do with the vast difference in pace, average points scored, etc? And again, the less advanced/complex defensive schemes?

Is Adrian Dantley really averaging 31ppg on 57% shooting over 4 seasons in today's NBA?

I don't know, but Dantley's game was a high percentage one. In the 80s, you also had better bigs than you do know. There was Moses and Kareem in the early 80s. Parish and the 7-2 Artis Gilmore were good. Hakeem, Sampson and Ewing in the second half.

Ewing in 89/90:
28.6/10.9 with 4 blocks on 55.1%

When was the last time a center put up those kind of numbers?

[Milbuck]

How much does Stephen Curry looking like the Jesus Christ of combo guards have to with the lax perimeter rules and complete emasculation of physical basketball in today's game?

Kobe, a shell of his formerself, is leading the NBA in scoring. Think about that for a second. :oldlol:
Stephen Curry looks like the Jesus Christ of combo guards because he's the best shooter ever with an elite surrounding skill-set to harness it fully, primarily ball handling, craftiness both on the perimeter and around the rim, high BBIQ and natural feel. And it doesn't hurt that he's finally been put in an offensive system that gives him elite spacing, and gives him more variation when he's used often in off-ball and catch and shoot situations where he is equally dangerous..with quality perimeter teammates to take defensive pressure off him (Klay, Iggy, Barnes, Livingston, etc). This is another instance where modern players are being underrated like crazy...what you're saying is just a modernized variation of the "Bird is overrated, unathletic white dude dominated his era"..Curry is raping the league right now because he's that ****ing good and is in a situation that lets him show it.

Kobe is 3rd in scoring right now behind Bron and Harden. And he's only 3rd because KD has been hurt and Melo is dealing with serious injuries that might require surgery to fix, and on a garbage roster...and of course, he's gunning like a madman on retarded efficiency.

[Marchesk]

Kobe is 3rd in scoring right now behind Bron and Harden.

James Harden is the best SG in the league the last three seasons. He's good and all, but you think he would be the best at any point in the 80s at his position? Even with MJ taken out of the equation?

He's not better than Gervin, Moncrief, or Drexler.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Stephen Curry looks like the Jesus Christ of combo guards because he's the best shooter ever with an elite surrounding skill-set to harness it fully, primarily ball handling, craftiness both on the perimeter and around the rim, high BBIQ and natural feel. And it doesn't hurt that he's finally been put in an offensive system that gives him elite spacing, and gives him more variation when he's used often in off-ball and catch and shoot situations where he is equally dangerous..with quality perimeter teammates to take defensive pressure off him (Klay, Iggy, Barnes, Livingston, etc). This is another instance where modern players are being underrated like crazy...what you're saying is just a modernized variation of the "Bird is overrated, unathletic white dude dominated his era"..Curry is raping the league right now because he's that ****ing good and is in a situation that lets him show it.

Curry is that good, because I don't take into consideration the lack of handchecking and freedom of space these perimeter players, especially shooters get. On the flipside, the guys from yesteryear were hyped because of "inflated" pace and "league average PPG". Really, I'm just talking from both sides of my mouth.

That is essentially what you're saying.

[fragokota]

For me GOAT criteria includes:

Solo Accolades
Team Accolades
Longevity being great
Numbers
Impact on the L (which can include redefining a position, transcending the sport, rules change because of u, etc.)



This is what many posters don't put into prospect when we're talking about the GOATS lists. The impact that very few had on the league, the game itself. That's why guys like Magic and Bird (and ofc MJ) are so highly ranked on those lists. NBA became world known because of the great rivalry of those two guys in the 80's. MJ later topped it off, skyrocketing the league and the game itself worldwide. As great a player a guy like Duncan is/was for example, cannot be considered greater icon for the sport of basketball than MJ/Bird. The same can be said for Shaq that Milbuck made a point about.

[Milbuck]

James Harden is the best SG in the league the last three seasons. He's good and all, but you think he would be the best at any point in the 80s at his position? Even with MJ taken out of the equation?

He's not better than Gervin, Moncrief, or Drexler.
Again, Gervin to Drexler is like a 20+ period of time. Why do we have to focus in on a 3-year span during Harden's emergence when we could just as easily look at the 20 year period in which peak Kobe, Wade, McGrady, AI, etc were lighting it up?

[bizil]

This is what many posters don't put into prospect when we're talking about the GOATS lists. The impact that very few had on the league, the game itself. That's why guys like Magic and Bird (and ofc MJ) are so highly ranked on those lists. NBA became world known because of the great rivalry of those two guys in the 80's. MJ later topped it off, skyrocketing the league and the game itself worldwide. As great a player a guy like Duncan is/was for example, cannot be considered greater icon for the sport of basketball than MJ/Bird. The same can be said for Shaq that Milbuck made a point about.

Well said! The NBA having Magic, Bird, and MJ at the same time is the BEST TRIFECTA of transcendant star power ever in sports. And u made a great point about Duncan. As great as he is, he's not a transcendant icon that casuals fans are excited to watch. When it comes to marketing and growing the game, u look to the guys who have the most transcendant star power. Stern was ahead of the curve in that aspect.

For me, that has to come into play for a GOAT list. The transcendant ones make a ton of money for the league, make a ton of money for endorsing companies all over the world, and gives casual fans A REASON to become huge fans or even basketball players themselves.

[Milbuck]

Curry is that good, because I don't take into consideration the lack of handchecking and freedom of space these perimeter players, especially shooters get. On the flipside, the guys from yesteryear were hyped because of "inflated" pace and "league average PPG". Really, I'm just talking from both sides of my mouth.

That is essentially what you're saying.
What about this are you actually disputing though?

Again I ask, is Adrian Dantley putting up 31 ppg on 57% shooting over 4 years today?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

What about this are you actually disputing though?

Again I ask, is Adrian Dantley putting up 31 ppg on 57% shooting over 4 years today?

I am willing to concede that and even expand on it, if you admit that today's shooters and perimeter players in general play with lax rules and more space to create.

[Milbuck]

Well said! The NBA having Magic, Bird, and MJ at the same time is the BEST TRIFECTA of transcendant star power ever in sports. And u made a great point about Duncan. As great as he is, he's not a transcendant icon that casuals fans are excited to watch. When it comes to marketing and growing the game, u look to the guys who have the most transcendant star power. Stern was ahead of the curve in that aspect.

For me, that has to come into play for a GOAT list. The transcendant ones make a ton of money for the league, make a ton of money for endorsing companies all over the world, and gives casual fans A REASON to become huge fans or even basketball players themselves.
I can't agree here, I think it's unfair to hold it against Duncan for not being the charismatic face of the league like a Magic, the polarizing sociopath that Kobe is, the flashy style player like Dr J, etc. If we're having a discussion on iconic statuses, reputation, etc...then sure. But a GOAT list has to revolve around basketball as a sport, not as a business imo.

[bizil]

I'm not a Lakers fan or Shaq fan, just telling it like it is...peak Shaq was just a better, more impactful player than any version of Bird. You can bring up his less than stellar seasons but at their best, Shaq > Bird on both ends of the floor. And for all the flack you want to give Shaq's defense, peak Shaq was a DPOY-level defender and his impact on that end shits on Bird's. Sorry if that bugs the shit out of you, but it's the truth.

I agree! People gotta realize that the HIGHEST percentage shots are close to the hoop. Well Shaq PHYSICALLY dominated the paint more than any player in the L history. His blend of size, speed, and skill is unmatched. Dude was 7'1 and 320 pounds. And he was a great passer out of the post too. I can't recall Shaq getting dunked on too many times in his peak. Renowned shot blockers like Zo and Dikembe got dunked on WAY MORE TIMES than Shaq. Guys would try them before they would try Shaq. That says A LOT!!

[fragokota]

I can't agree here, I think it's unfair to hold it against Duncan for not being the charismatic face of the league like a Magic, the polarizing sociopath that Kobe is, the flashy style player like Dr J, etc. If we're having a discussion on iconic statuses, reputation, etc...then sure. But a GOAT list has to revolve around basketball as a sport, not as a business imo.

It's not just about business, that's what you fail to understand. MJ or Magic were synonymous to basketball for million of kids around the globe while growning up. Heck your boy Giannis grew up in a country that learned to love basketball during the legendary Celtics/LAL battles. Thousands of basketball courts were built around the country during that period as the popularity of the sport skyrocketed in the country. And believe me cause i was one of those kids that grew up playing on those courts idolizing those guys. They were ambassadors of the sport, icons of basketball, not just marketing creations... It maybe unfair to the next generations, but it is a fact that cannot be argued.

[bizil]

I can't agree here, I think it's unfair to hold it against Duncan for not being the charismatic face of the league like a Magic, the polarizing sociopath that Kobe is, the flashy style player like Dr J, etc. If we're having a discussion on iconic statuses, reputation, etc...then sure. But a GOAT list has to revolve around basketball as a sport, not as a business imo.

I'm not holding against Duncan at all. That's not my point at all. My point is guys should be credited for growing the game. I feel that impact CAN BE USED as a tiebreaker if it is close. Growing the game on a worldwide level DUE TO YOUR DOMINANCE on the court is EASILY a factor of GOAT status. I'm not saying it's the most important one though. Ultimately, GREATNESS is often times how many people remember you THUS spreading your legend even more. That EASILY revolves around the sport!

The business part from that greatness is a BY PRODUCT of the legend that was formed on the court. The marketing the NBA does for the superstar players is the blasting cap for the endorsements. HOW DO THESE COMPANIES know who they are without the NBA's marketing machine.

As handsome as women thought Rick Fox was, the NBA NEVER used him for marekting purposes. Why? Becasue the NBA are ONLY gonna market the top superstars hard. That's EASILY a direct correlation to what happens on the court. The one's who are the most charismatic (often by their style of play) take it to the NEXT LEVEL away from the court. U look at the big three in Magic, Bird, and MJ. ALL OF THEM had an exciting brand of basketball made for casual fans.

Dr. J had an exciting brand of basketball. Bron, Kobe, Shaq, and AI ALL had an exciting brand of basketball. It's no secret why ALL OF THEM transcended basketball. From THERE they got the endorsements, etc. Their on the court brand of bball has an ENORMOUS impact on growing the game on a worldwide level. The business part was just the reward.

[bizil]

It's not just about business, that's what you fail to understand. MJ or Magic were synonymous to basketball for million of kids around the globe while growning up. Heck your boy Giannis grew up in a country that learned to love basketball during the legendary Celtics/LAL battles. Thousands of basketball courts were built around the country during that period as the popularity of the sport skyrocketed in the country. And believe me cause i was one of those kids that grew up playing on those courts idolizing those guys. They were ambassadors of the sport, icons of basketball, not just marketing creations... It maybe unfair to the next generations, but it is a fact that cannot be argued.

That's my point exactly!! The business aspect is a by product of the greatness within the sport. It's starts being great at the CRAFT first AND THEN u can conquer the business world. In football, Peyton Manning is seen all over the place on TV. Why? Because he's arguably the best QB of all time and has charisma too. But it ALL STARTED from the field.

Ultimately, greatness is the imprint u leave on the sport. Inspiring millions of kids across the world to LATER become great NBA players is HUGE! As great as Duncan is, he doesn't have the charisma TO TURN casual fans into big fans. Some of those big fans go on to become NBA superstars down the road.

[rmt]

That's my point exactly!! The business aspect is a by product of the greatness within the sport. It's starts being great at the CRAFT first AND THEN u can conquer the business world. In football, Peyton Manning is seen all over the place on TV. Why? Because he's arguably the best QB of all time and has charisma too. But it ALL STARTED from the field.

Ultimately, greatness is the imprint u leave on the sport. Inspiring millions of kids across the world to LATER become great NBA players is HUGE! As great as Duncan is, he doesn't have the charisma TO TURN casual fans into big fans. Some of those big fans go on to become NBA superstars down the road.

The example to refute this is tennis' Pete Sampras and Andre Agassi. Agassi was wildly popular, charismatic, top-notch marketing personality. Sampras was quiet, withdrawn, played tennis, did his interviews and went home. But no one ever claimed that Agassi was greater than Sampras because of the imprint he left on the tennis world. Sampras had the better career resume - same with KAJ - dour personality, didn't get on with the media, etc. but no one doubts his resume.

IMO, GOAT must be about total resume (first winning, then accolades and lastly skill) or Bill Russell would not be rated so high on these lists (offensively he's just not in the same class as the rest of the widely acknowledged top 10). I am surprised in this day and age of tolerance and acceptance of everyone, that people are using charisma as a criteria for best ever. Would you like to have Kwahi Leonard (the so-called quietest player in the league) on your favorite team? Is he a better player than others with "personality"? I think that when you answer those 2 questions you'll have your answer on how to rank players (and it ain't on charisma).

[fpliii]

The example to refute this is tennis' Pete Sampras and Andre Agassi. Agassi was wildly popular, charisma, top-notch marketing personality. Sampras was quiet, withdrawn, played tennis, did his interviews and went home. But no one ever claimed that Agassi was greater than Sampras because of the imprint he left on the tennis world. Sampras had the better career resume - same with KAJ - dour personality, didn't get on with the media, etc. but no one doubts his resume.

IMO, GOAT must be about total resume (first winning, then accolades and lastly skill) or Bill Russell would not be rated so high on these lists (offensively he's just not in the same class as the rest of the widely acknowledged top 10). I am surprised in this day and age of tolerance and acceptance of everyone, that people are using charisma as a criteria for best ever. Would you like to have Kwahi Leonard (the so-called quietest player in the league) on your favorite team? Is he a better player than others with "personality"? I think that when you answer those 2 questions you'll have your answer on how to rank players (and it ain't on charisma).
Goes the other way as well. Look at Magic (and to a lesser extent Bird, though I think he's underrated defensively).

[bizil]

The example to refute this is tennis' Pete Sampras and Andre Agassi. Agassi was wildly popular, charismatic, top-notch marketing personality. Sampras was quiet, withdrawn, played tennis, did his interviews and went home. But no one ever claimed that Agassi was greater than Sampras because of the imprint he left on the tennis world. Sampras had the better career resume - same with KAJ - dour personality, didn't get on with the media, etc. but no one doubts his resume.

IMO, GOAT must be about total resume (first winning, then accolades and lastly skill) or Bill Russell would not be rated so high on these lists (offensively he's just not in the same class as the rest of the widely acknowledged top 10). I am surprised in this day and age of tolerance and acceptance of everyone, that people are using charisma as a criteria for best ever. Would you like to have Kwahi Leonard (the so-called quietest player in the league) on your favorite team? Is he a better player than others with "personality"? I think that when you answer those 2 questions you'll have your answer on how to rank players (and it ain't on charisma).

But Sampras and Agassi WAS NEVER CLOSE!! 14 Grand Slams to Agassi's 8! That's not close. And they played in the same era as well. Plus Sampras WAS ALWAYS considered the better player. In an INDIVIDUAL SPORT, its MORE CUT AND DRY who is better. In a team sport, there are WAY MORE FACTORS that come into play.

Duncan vs. Shaq or Kobe for that matter IS A MUCH CLOSER COMPARISON. If u read my post CORRECTLY I said TRANSCENDANT STAR POWER could be a tiebreaker if its close. And I ALSO said transcendant star power ISN'T the most important factor or be all end all. I SAID it does factor into impact on the sport as a whole. ONLY IF ITS CLOSE I SAID IT COULD BE A TIEBREAKER. NOTICE I DIDN'T SAY SHOULD BE!! I said could be BECAUSE growing the game on an worldwide level is ESSENTIAL in the sport becoming better as a whole.

The transcendant stars who provide the inspiration is an EPIC DEAL. AND IT SURE AS HELL could come into play when ranking greatness. Once again FOR THE LAST TIME, I said it COULD. And not that it should in ALL CASES!! GET IT? GOT IT? GOOD!!!!:pimp:

And lastly, u brought up Kareem. Why do most people consider MJ the GOAT instead of Kareem? Cap is the all time leading scorer in NBA history. He has six rings, six MVP's, and has arguably the greatest longevity in terms of being a great player of all time. Hell he ALSO revolutionized the center position. SO WHY DON'T MORE PEOPLE CONSIDER CAP THE GOAT? It's likely because of Jordan's impact off the court in the new age marketing. Jordan's impact in terms of the TOTAL SPECTRUM of basketball off the court is greater than Kareem's.

In between the lines, if u want a long dominant and successful career that spans eras, Kareem is THE TEMPLATE!! He played with Big O and Magic. He battled Wilt as a great player AND Hakeem as a great player. He was Finals MVP at 38 YEARS OLD! MJ's off the court shit to me was ACTUALLY the tiebreaker when it comes to Kareem. MJ captured the IMAGINATION of the WORLD!! Kareem as great as he was NEVER DID!!

[Blue&Orange]

I never once brought up athleticism. Just that modern defenses are more advanced and adaptable than in the 80s. It's nothing that hasn't been analyzed extensively.
And so are offenses :confusedshrug: Only idiots believe defenses got better while apparently offenses amazingly in 20 years saw no improvement.

[T_L_P]

Here is a real list of the top 10 without any of the bullshit that makes up you dumb kids' lists:
1a: MJ
1b: Wilt
3: Kareem
4: Russell
5: Bird
6: Magic
7: Kobe
8: Lebron
9: Shaq
10: Hakeem/Duncan

That, children, is a real top 10 list without any of the bullshit. The only thing in that list I can't really defend too well is Larry at 5th because his lack of longevity due to injury. But any other listing I will defend to the very end, I dare u dumb trash to critique it, go ahead N1gs.

I have one: LeBron over Shaq/Duncan but not Kobe.


Good lord :oldlol:

Shaq was 2nd in DPOY voting in his MVP season, with a defensive RAPM equal to Duncan. And offensively he was the most dominant offensive force arguably ever.

Seriously, we're talking about a 30/14/4/3/1, 58% TS monster with elite defense...dude put up 38/17 on 61% shooting in the finals. And he was doing it in a tougher defensive era with a pace of 93.1 vs the low 100s as they were in the 80s.

Bird was never in his life better than peak Shaq.

I don't think that's true. As I remember, Shaq's was a 3.5 and Duncan's was a 6. On some of the more conservative RAPM lists (numbers wise), Shaq's was a .5 and Duncan's was a 4.5. :confusedshrug:

I totally agree with what you're saying though. Peak Shaq was better than peak Bird for sure. His defense (because he's a giant) was obviously more valuable than Bird's (and better). But Shaq was never in that Duncan/Robinson/Wallace/Mutombo/Garnett defensive class in the early 2000s.

[aj1987]

Yes their overall scoring skillsets are comparable. Midrange, footwork, fundamentals... The whole 9. There is a reason Dominique, Gervin, and Dr. J have ~2k more points in roughly the same number of seasons and minutes.
Who has ~2k more points than LeBron?

LeBron - 863 GP 23,706 PTS 27.5 PPG (In his 12th season currently)
'Nique - 907 GP 24,019 PTS 26.5 PPG (12 Seasons)
Gervin - 906 GP 23,746 PTS 26.2 PPG (12 Seasons)
Dr. J - 882 GP 22,851 PTS 25.9 PPG (11 Seasons)

If someone can do it for the exact number of games, I'm sure that LeBron had more points than all of them on fewer FGA's. Also, lets not forget about the pace.


I don't think that's true. As I remember, Shaq's was a 3.5 and Duncan's was a 6. On some of the more conservative RAPM lists (numbers wise), Shaq's was a .5 and Duncan's was a 4.5. :confusedshrug:
http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2000.html

[-23-]

Goes the other way as well. Look at Magic (and to a lesser extent Bird, though I think he's underrated defensively).


not quite as much. Games are won with points. Doesn't matter if you have amazing defense when you lose the game because you don't score.

[T_L_P]

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2000.html

Yeah, just realized that; thought Milbuck was talking about 01 for some reason.

The RAPM data isn't good for that year; RAPM before 01 is pretty useless because it relies on play-by-play data, which didn't exist (in expansive form) until then. :confusedshrug:

[aj1987]

Yeah, just realized that; thought Milbuck was talking about 01 for some reason.

The RAPM data isn't good for that year; RAPM before 01 is pretty useless because it relies on play-by-play data, which didn't exist (in expansive form) until then. :confusedshrug:
Not a big fan of Defensive RAPM, TBH.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Who has ~2k more points than LeBron?

LeBron - 863 GP 23,706 PTS 27.5 PPG (In his 12th season currently)
'Nique - 907 GP 24,019 PTS 26.5 PPG (12 Seasons)
Gervin - 906 GP 23,746 PTS 26.2 PPG (12 Seasons)
Dr. J - 882 GP 22,851 PTS 25.9 PPG (11 Seasons)

If someone can do it for the exact number of games, I'm sure that LeBron had more points than all of them on fewer FGA's. Also, lets not forget about the pace.

Huge typo on my part. I meant ~1K, but even then I ignorantly combined some of their ABA years. Apologies.

For Nique, at ~34,000+ minutes logged (same as LeBron), he had somewhere around 1K more points and change; bear in mind, those Hawk squads played at a similar pace to Lebron's Cavs & recent Heat teams.

And yeah, not that this means Nique is better - but that he was a REALLY good scorer and definitely comparable. As an all-around player, well, different story.

[Juges8932]

Shaq doesn't seem to get the respect he deserves on these lists a lot of times IMO. He's always on the back half of the top 10 and I really don't understand why. When he was at his best, I'm not sure I would take anybody over him, aside from maybe MJ due to his ability to be on the floor at the end of a close game and to hit a game winner. His accolades compare favorably with basically everybody on that list except for MJ and Russell.

I guess it depends on what criteria you use to judge them. I guess you'd have to use some sort of gauge in comparison for their time. As in how dominate they were during the time they played as it leaves a lot of subjectivity when comparing across eras due to the differences in rules/play style and the advancement of technology. But even then, I'd have a hard time not placing Shaq/Duncan higher on the list. I think Bird/Magic get overrated being auto-placed in the top 5. Tell me what they have in terms of ability, dominance, or accolades that Shaq/Duncan/Kobe do not?

[KyleKong]

Arguing over a top 10 list.

The endless circle jerk fest.

[DMAVS41]

Not a big fan of Defensive RAPM, TBH.

Why? I mean...hardly perfect by any means, but what other defensive measures do you like better?

[T_L_P]

Shaq doesn't seem to get the respect he deserves on these lists a lot of times IMO. He's always on the back half of the top 10 and I really don't understand why. When he was at his best, I'm not sure I would take anybody over him, aside from maybe MJ due to his ability to be on the floor at the end of a close game and to hit a game winner. His accolades compare favorably with basically everybody on that list except for MJ and Russell.

I guess it depends on what criteria you use to judge them. I guess you'd have to use some sort of gauge in comparison for their time. As in how dominate they were during the time they played as it leaves a lot of subjectivity when comparing across eras due to the differences in rules/play style and the advancement of technology. But even then, I'd have a hard time not placing Shaq/Duncan higher on the list. I think Bird/Magic get overrated being auto-placed in the top 5. Tell me what they have in terms of ability, dominance, or accolades that Shaq/Duncan/Kobe do not?

Great post...especially with the auto-placing of Bird and Magic.

Shaq's longevity is beyond underrated. People always talk about his peak, but he was elite from day one until year 13 (though he wasn't polished in his first season). I personally think Shaq after 06 didn't bring much value to a team (I might be alone in that camp), but that prime is longer than Bird's career. And at his peak Shaq was better than either of those two mentioned above.

I personally have Duncan/Shaq/Magic as my 4-6, and they are all interchangeable. Then Hakeem, then Bird.

[ArbitraryWater]

I'm glad to see so many people acknowledge the underrating of Shaq all-time.... I have him between 4 and 5.

[MastaKilla]

I'm glad to see so many people acknowledge the underrating of Shaq all-time.... I have him between 4 and 5.

He never did anything without Kobe and had plenty of years playing with other all star guards.. Penny was all nba 1st team while O'Neal was 2nd team so tht just shows how great penny was at the time.

Kobe has 2 FMVPs, 2 rings without Shaq, 3 finals trips.

Shaq has 0 FMVP & 1 ring in 1 finals trip without Kobe.

Wade has also found championship success without Shaq aswell.

[HOoopCityJones]

He never did anything without Kobe and had plenty of years playing with other all star guards.. Penny was all nba 1st team while O'Neal was 2nd team so tht just shows how great penny was at the time.

Kobe has 2 FMVPs, 2 rings without Shaq, 3 finals trips.

Shaq has 0 FMVP & 1 ring in 1 finals trip without Kobe.

Wade has also found championship success without Shaq aswell.


That Ether.

[JellyBean]

http://i.imgur.com/mcucPvG.png

Pretty solid list.

[aj1987]

Why? I mean...hardly perfect by any means, but what other defensive measures do you like better?
If I had to use one, I'd probably use a combination of defensive RAPM, DWS, and DRtg (I know, DRtg sucks balls as well). As I said, not a fan of defensive advanced metrics.

[kshutts1]

I don't keep up on any celebrity's top 10. But serious question.. has any celebrity ever not put Jordan first?

And I don't mean that to prop up Jordan, but rather to point out the fact that their lists are, even if only partially, dictated by politics.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I don't keep up on any celebrity's top 10. But serious question.. has any celebrity ever not put Jordan first?

And I don't mean that to prop up Jordan, but rather to point out the fact that their lists are, even if only partially, dictated by politics.
This. I'm a big Jordan fan, and (still) collect his best games... But these idiot celebrities and ESPN pundits who claim it isn't even close or put Jordan at #1 "just because" are retarded. Kareem and Russell have amazing resumes and they MORE than challenge MJ for that GOAT moniker; they're arguably "greater".

[kshutts1]

And a question directed at Legends, Kuniva, longhorn, and magic32...

Why, in particular, do you leave Oscar off your top 10 lists? I don't mean this in a condescending manner, but is it just lack of knowledge? Recency bias? Era in which he played?

Everything I have read from people that saw Oscar play claims he has an argument for GOAT, much less top 10.

I'm just legitimately curious where this gigantic disconnect comes from.

[aj1987]

And a question directed at Legends, Kuniva, longhorn, and magic32...

Why, in particular, do you leave Oscar off your top 10 lists? I don't mean this in a condescending manner, but is it just lack of knowledge? Recency bias? Era in which he played?

Everything I have read from people that saw Oscar play claims he has an argument for GOAT, much less top 10.

I'm just legitimately curious where this gigantic disconnect comes from.
Most GOAT lists take accolades into account as well. Oscar doesn't have too many. Also, the "weak era" and pace arguments.

Who would take out of the the top 10 to put Oscar in there?

Shaq
MJ
Kobe
Russell
LeBron
Duncan
Wilt
Kareem
Bird
Magic

Arguments could be made for Hakeem, Moses, Dr. J, and West to be ranked above Oscar as well.

[kshutts1]

Most GOAT lists take accolades into account as well. Oscar doesn't have too many. Also, the "weak era" and pace arguments.

Who would take out the the top 10 to put Oscar in there?

Shaq
MJ
Kobe
Russell
LeBron
Duncan
Wilt
Kareem
Bird
Magic

Arguments could be made for Hakeem, Moses, Dr. J, and West to be ranked above Oscar as well.
I appreciate you answering my question. I'll never understand the focus on ranking individuals using team accolades.
I don't rank numerically. I do a tiered system. My top 2 tiers include 13 players, but Oscar is in my first tier. So I'd replace Oscar with anyone in that top 10 that is in my second tier.

Tier 1, no order:
Jordan
Oscar
Russell
Wilt
Shaq
Bird
Kareem

Tier 2:
Magic
Kobe
Duncan
KG
Hakeem
West

[boozehound]

Kobe has longevity over Shaq. It's that simple.

Kobe is the Lakers franchise leader on most of their records.

Only second to probably Magic as a Laker.

Plus, 5 championships, all as a Laker. He has a case.
is this a top 10 lakers list? GTFO

[aj1987]

I appreciate you answering my question. I'll never understand the focus on ranking individuals using team accolades.
I don't rank numerically. I do a tiered system. My top 2 tiers include 13 players, but Oscar is in my first tier. So I'd replace Oscar with anyone in that top 10 that is in my second tier.

Tier 1, no order:
Jordan
Oscar
Russell
Wilt
Shaq
Bird
Kareem

Tier 2:
Magic
Kobe
Duncan
KG
Hakeem
West
Basketball is a sport where individuals can basically carry teams to wins. Duncan, Hakeem, etc. won titles with subpar teams. Not to mention their defensive impact.

That being said, going back to Oscar, most people will be ready to point out that he did it in a "weak era", when the guard play wasn't all that good and the pace was very high as well.

[kshutts1]

Basketball is a sport where individuals can basically carry teams to wins. Duncan, Hakeem, etc. won titles with subpar teams. Not to mention their defensive impact.

That being said, going back to Oscar, most people will be ready to point out that he did it in a "weak era", when the guard play wasn't all that good and the pace was very high as well.
Agree that most people would say that. I would respond by saying that it is only a "weak era" because of how gaudy the stats look, and because no one else was on his level. I would argue that that shows his relative greatness, rather than a "weak era". But alas, I'd be fighting a losing battle.

[turret]

Agree that most people would say that. I would respond by saying that it is only a "weak era" because of how gaudy the stats look, and because no one else was on his level. I would argue that that shows his relative greatness, rather than a "weak era". But alas, I'd be fighting a losing battle.

:applause:

[MastaKilla]

Agree that most people would say that. I would respond by saying that it is only a "weak era" because of how gaudy the stats look, and because no one else was on his level. I would argue that that shows his relative greatness, rather than a "weak era". But alas, I'd be fighting a losing battle.

the stats look gaudy, because the pace was insane. Guys like Wilt were taking 40 shots + 17 free throws per game in 1962

[kshutts1]

the stats look gaudy, because the pace was insane. Guys like Wilt were taking 40 shots + 17 free throws per game in 1962
That's fine.

Please prove that Wilt didn't earn his stats by showing all the other players averaging "Wilt-like" stats.

Then I will concede to the "pace" argument.

Fact is, every single player benefited from the pace. Not every single player put up historic numbers.

[MastaKilla]

That's fine.

Please prove that Wilt didn't earn his stats by showing all the other players averaging "Wilt-like" stats.

Then I will concede to the "pace" argument.

Fact is, every single player benefited from the pace. Not every single player put up historic numbers.

Wilt led the league in FGA by over 1,000 more shots than the next guy..

league average today is 100 points per game, league average in 1962 was 119 ppg



Fact is, every single player benefited from the pace. Not every single player put up historic numbers.

would you consider 38/19/5 historic?

32/19/3?

31/19/4?

31/13/11?

all of these stat lines plus Wilt's happened in 1962

Wilt was taking 16 more shots per game than any of these guys listed besides Baylor who was averaging 38 points on 33 shots.

[kshutts1]

Wilt led the league in FGA by over 1,000 more shots than the next guy..

league average today is 100 points per game, league average in 1962 was 119 ppg




would you consider 38/19/5 historic?

32/19/3?

31/19/4?

31/13/11?

all of these stat lines plus Wilt's happened in 1962

Wilt was taking 16 more shots per game than any of these guys listed besides Baylor who was averaging 38 points on 33 shots.
By "1962" are you referring to Wilt's 50/26 or 45/24 lines? Because, well, the others pale in comparison.

Again, show "wilt-like stats" being achieved by ANYONE else, pace or not. I'll wait.

Fact is, Wilt was so often so far ahead of everyone else, that even if pace is valid (and of course it is), pace along did not make Wilt. Wilt made himself, as evidenced by blowing out everyone else that benefited from pace.

[kshutts1]

I looked up Elgin's 38/19 line to see which season you were talking about.

38/19 is totally the same as 50/26. You're right. It's not like one is 133%/145% of the other. Not at all.

[MastaKilla]

I looked up Elgin's 38/19 line to see which season you were talking about.

38/19 is totally the same as 50/26. You're right. It's not like one is 133%/145% of the other. Not at all.

what are you talking about?

you asked for other historic "Wilt Like seasons" from the same time and I give you a list of guys averaging 30+/19 and the only triple double season in history (without having to round up) and you act like it's nothing?

:biggums: :biggums:

[kshutts1]

what are you talking about?

you asked for other historic "Wilt Like seasons" from the same time and I give you a list of guys averaging 30+/19 and the only triple double season in history (without having to round up) and you act like it's nothing?

:biggums: :biggums:
It's nowhere near Wilt, that's for sure.

[MastaKilla]

i already showed you the 19ppg differential in pace, i already showed you that Wilt took 1,000+ more shots than anybody else that season

I already showed you a guy who had 4 straight years of averaging a triple double.

Oscar averaging 30+/10/10 for 4 straight years doesn't "compare" to Wilt, then okay you're just a delusional stan

[kshutts1]

My sole argument is not for any individual, but rather to debunk the "pace" factor.

Pace plays a factor with the average numbers of the league as a whole. However, pace benefits every player equally. So when one, or 5, players are SO FAR AHEAD of everyone else? Don't say "pace". That's when you say "greatness".

If "pace" is the sole reason for Oscar's triple doubles, show me borderline-all-star players nearing those numbers. Because it's "pace" and not "greatness".
If "pace" is the sole reason for Wilt to average 50ppg, then show me someone else averaging 50ppg, or anywhere near it. Because it's "pace" that affects scoring, and not greatness".

Fact is, it's about relative numbers. Oscar's, Wilt's, and Elgin's numbers are higher than their peers, by a SIGNIFICANT margin, because they were BETTER than their peers by a significant margin.

I don't remember the exact number, but Wilt has the two (or three?) highest scoring seasons RELATIVE to his competitor's PPG, EVER. Not Jordan. Not Kareem. Wilt.

Stop using pace. Stop using "weak era". Just look at relative numbers. And you will be happier. The hate will stop. You will see the light.

[MastaKilla]

It's nowhere near Wilt, that's for sure.

:roll: :roll:

ok buddy..

[MastaKilla]

On average teams took 8,619 shots for the entire season in 1962 over an 80 game season

on average teams took 6,806 shots for the entire season in 2014 over an 82 game season

[Solefade]

what's Bill Simmon's top 10 of all time?

[bizil]

My sole argument is not for any individual, but rather to debunk the "pace" factor.

Pace plays a factor with the average numbers of the league as a whole. However, pace benefits every player equally. So when one, or 5, players are SO FAR AHEAD of everyone else? Don't say "pace". That's when you say "greatness".

If "pace" is the sole reason for Oscar's triple doubles, show me borderline-all-star players nearing those numbers. Because it's "pace" and not "greatness".
If "pace" is the sole reason for Wilt to average 50ppg, then show me someone else averaging 50ppg, or anywhere near it. Because it's "pace" that affects scoring, and not greatness".

Fact is, it's about relative numbers. Oscar's, Wilt's, and Elgin's numbers are higher than their peers, by a SIGNIFICANT margin, because they were BETTER than their peers by a significant margin.

I don't remember the exact number, but Wilt has the two (or three?) highest scoring seasons RELATIVE to his competitor's PPG, EVER. Not Jordan. Not Kareem. Wilt.

Stop using pace. Stop using "weak era". Just look at relative numbers. And you will be happier. The hate will stop. You will see the light.

Excellent point! If scoring 50 points a night was SO EASY, EVERYBODY would have been doing it. If averaging a triple double like Big O in a season was easy, then EVERYBODY would have been doing it. Same with Elgin and what he did.

If anything, ALL THREE OF THEM were ahead of their time. They were the blueprint for the dominant two way all around big man, the big PG who was a triple double threat and could play three positions, and the freak athlete perimeter scoring machine. U can't minimize their impact and say pace this and pace that. Wilt, Big O, Elgin, and West would be superstars in any era flat out. THEY WERE SO AHEAD of their time that of course their numbers would come down if they were at their peaks in the 1980's and later.

But I think Wilt was STILL capable of getting 35 points and 15-18 boards per game in a season in the 80's, 90's or now. He just wouldn't be averaging 50 points. I think Big O could come close to a triple double season like MJ, Bron, or Magic did. And I think Elgin would be a freak athlete scoring machine at the SF on par with Dr. J, Nique, Bron, etc.

[BlazerRed]

http://i.imgur.com/mcucPvG.png
I am OK with this.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt led the league in FGA by over 1,000 more shots than the next guy..

league average today is 100 points per game, league average in 1962 was 119 ppg




would you consider 38/19/5 historic?

32/19/3?

31/19/4?

31/13/11?

all of these stat lines plus Wilt's happened in 1962

Wilt was taking 16 more shots per game than any of these guys listed besides Baylor who was averaging 38 points on 33 shots.


If you look up BB-Reference, Baylor's '62 season is NOT among the league leaders.


Baylor's 38 ppg season came in only 48 of the NBA's 80 games. Keep in mind that in the early 60's, teams were OFTEN playing three games in three nights.

If you are going to use a small sample like that as some kind of slap at Chamberlain's dominance...then how about this...

In Wilt's 61-62 season, he had TWO separate streaks of 14 games in which he averaged 53 and 54 ppg. Later in that season, he had a run of five straight games in which he averaged...get this... 70.2 ppg.

Furthermore, in his first 16 games of the very next season, he was averaging 53 ppg. That is an example of 49 games, all sandwiched within a short span, in which Chamberlain averaged about 55 ppg.

So, if you were to include Baylor's 38 ppg, which again was not a FULLTIME season, then I would argue that Chamberlain's run of 55 pg qualifies, as well.

Wilt actually won the '61-62 scoring mark by a +18.8 ppg margin over Walt Bellamy.

If you want a FULL season from Baylor, he had seasons of 34.8 ppg and 34.0 ppg in '61 and '63. BTW, in his '63 season, Chamberlain again ran away with the scoring title, at 44.8 ppg to Baylor's 34.0 ppg.

The highest "non-Wilt" scoring average, IN the Wilt-era, was Rick Barry's 35.6 ppg in '66-67. BTW, Barry himself admitted that he (Barry) only won the scoring the title that year, simply because Wilt didn't want it.


Baylor was the closest to Wilt in scoring 60+ point games IN the Wilt era, with FOUR. Jerry West added the ONLY other one in the Wilt era, that was not put up by Chamberlain. How about Wilt, himself? 32 (yes, 32!)

Subtract Wilt from the Wilt-era, and the highest scoring season was 35.6 ppg, with the next best marks being 34.8 ppg, 34.8 ppg, and 34.0 ppg. After that it declines to Bellamy's 31.6 ppg. Those HIGH scoring seasons were equalled, or nearly equalled, in the 70's, 80's, 90's, and 00's.

[SamuraiSWISH]

http://i.imgur.com/mcucPvG.png
Pretty good ... LeBron should be #10 though. Over both Oscar, and Hakeem.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Terrible list. Shaq way too low. Shaq is a top 5 GOAT. Give me a good reason why Wilt should be higher than Shaq? Similar players, Shaq just won more and was better.

Kobe also too high. Kobe is in the 10-15 range. LeBron should be top 10. Easily better than Oscar prime for prime, more career accomplishments, and longevity really isn't an issue - LeBron's 12 all star caliber seasons to Oscar's 11.

[Timmy D for MVP]

I don't love Tim ahead of Wilt, but I can understand why he might do that.

But I really don't like Kobe over Shaq or Hakeem. Career wise maybe, and maybe that's how he's ranking it, but for me Kobe has to be 10 behind those big guys.

Completely agree with the top 4 though.

[houston]

weak list

[SamuraiSWISH]

You can't not have LeBron in that list w/ 4x MVPs, 2x Rings, 2x FMVPs

[aj1987]

You can't not have LeBron in that list w/ 4x MVPs, 2x Rings, 2x FMVPs
But you can have Bird in the top 5 with 3 Rings, 3 MVP's, and 2 FMVP's? Hakeem with 2 Rings, 2 FMVP's, and 1 MVP? Oscar with 1 MVP and 1 Ring?

[HOoopCityJones]

But you can have Bird in the top 5 with 3 Rings, 3 MVP's, and 2 FMVP's? Hakeem with 2 Rings, 2 FMVP's, and 1 MVP? Oscar with 1 MVP and 1 Ring?

Double standards are beautiful aren't they? :rolleyes:

[T_L_P]

But you can have Bird in the top 5 with 3 Rings, 3 MVP's, and 2 FMVP's? Hakeem with 2 Rings, 2 FMVP's, and 1 MVP? Oscar with 1 MVP and 1 Ring?

'You can't not have LeBron in that list'

[SugarHill]

But you can have Bird in the top 5 with 3 Rings, 3 MVP's, and 2 FMVP's? Hakeem with 2 Rings, 2 FMVP's, and 1 MVP? Oscar with 1 MVP and 1 Ring?

He was saying LeBron deserves to be top 10.

[aj1987]

'You can't not have LeBron in that list'

He was saying LeBron deserves to be top 10.
:facepalm

Double negatives. My bad.

[HOoopCityJones]

Yea, I think he was supposed to type "How can you not have Lebron on that list?"

[wally_world]

I like it. Except I'd have LeBron at #10 and give Larry strong considerations over Magic.

[MastaKilla]

Birds career has no argument over Kobe anymore.

10 elite years vs 16-17 elite years.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Birds career has no argument over Kobe anymore.

10 elite years vs 16-17 elite years.

If you value better peak and prime production; leadership and intangibles, such as clutch play, along with better basketball skills and fundamentals, Bird still has an iron grip over Kobe.

[HOoopCityJones]

If you value better peak and prime production; leadership and intangibles, such as clutch play, along with better basketball skills and fundamentals, Bird still has an iron grip over Kobe.


:roll:

Bird has better Skills and Fundamentals than Kobe? Maybe on his shot mechanics but thats where it stops. He was the better shoooter and rebounder , but thats where it stops imo.

Put it like this , one on one , Bird vs Kobe.

Who's winning?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

:roll:

Bird has better Skills and Fundamentals than Kobe? Maybe on his shot mechanics but thats where it stops. He was the better shoooter and rebounder , but thats where it stops imo.

Put it like this , one on one , Bird vs Kobe.

Who's winning?

His shot mechanics, no. Bird's form was actually unorthodox and not exactly fundamental. His passing, midrange, and 3 ball were all better though. His postgame, footwork, and off-hand were also better. Overall, Bird's in-game iq with regards to his shot selection and control over the offense... is, you guessed it, better.

[jayfan]

Lebron especially, like how the **** would they stop him? Dude is Karl Malone with MJ's athleticism, Bird's vision, good shooter, etc..all the "mental strength, men played in the 80s" narratives aside, I really can't understand how someone can rationally watch peak Lebron from like 2009-2013 and not think he'd rape that era.



For one, he's kind of a wuss. He'd be put on his ass every night.







.

[HOoopCityJones]

His shot mechanics, no. Bird's form was actually unorthodox and not exactly fundamental. His passing, midrange, and 3 ball were all better though. His postgame, footwork, and off-hand were also better. Overall, Bird's in-game iq with regards to his shot selection and control over the offense... is, you guessed it, better.

Thanks for proving my point by side stepping my question. :pimp:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Thanks for proving my point by side stepping my question. :pimp:
Basketball skills and fundamentals aren't exclusive to a 1 on 1 (ie. passing, one of Bird's greatest assets).

For the record, I think they would split a best of 10.