Isiah Thomas letting Shaq know what it is! OPEN COURT [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

SHAQisGOAT

10-27-2014, 11:19 PM

Shaq action a fool there, I'm with Isiah on this one...

No he would not. 2000 Shaq was also the peak of his defensive energy and motivation. He was 2nd in DPOY voting and was a clear game changer on that end, anchoring the #1 defense in both DRTG and opposing FG%. Peak Shaq would have a better shot of containing peak Kareem than the other way around.

And Kareem would've gotten a couple of DPOY's at least, had the award been given before 1983, so I don't really get the argument you're trying to make...

With that said, I think I'd pick Shaq when it comes to m2m defense because Kareem sometimes got "killed" by very big, skilled and physical centers (Shaq being one, so regarding the 1on1 he probably would've stood better chances), but Jabbar has him beat in terms of overall team D, at center.

One thing they got in common, defensively, is that they didn't like to come out and challenge on the perimeter a lot, which could be detrimental sometimes...

Love Shaq and if I had to pick the greatest peak ever I'd probably go with him... but him vs peak Kareem? Can go either way really, and I'm not talking just about the 1on1 but overall impact towards their team winning... And tbh, Kareem probably gets the slight edge when you measure every part of the game, including intangibles(which could very well be the game changer here), but it's hard to tell...

Oh, and both at their best? Neither has a chance at (decisively) stopping the other.

navy

10-27-2014, 11:19 PM

No he would not. 2000 Shaq was also the peak of his defensive energy and motivation. He was 2nd in DPOY voting and was a clear game changer on that end, anchoring the #1 defense in both DRTG and opposing FG%. Peak Shaq would have a better shot of containing peak Kareem than the other way around.
Shaq isnt enough to stop the skyhook, lol. Kareem was dropping 40 point games on Hakeem at the age of 38.

I never suggested anything about head to head or Kareem stopping Shaq, just the ridiculousness of Shaq's statement.

And I dont know much about peak Kareem but I hear his defense was nasty.

Round Mound

10-27-2014, 11:50 PM

Kareem had problems vs bigger and stronger opponents like that of Moses Malone. Not saying Kareem wouldnt score he would but Shaq would too and on higher efficiency (maybe score less but on way higher fg%). Shaq would outrebound Kareem imo. Passing wise for open teamates? Kareem would do it better because he had more intangibles and b-ball iq.

Really hard to say who is better.....

Where can i find the video on youtube? on Isiah saying this?

Milbuck

10-27-2014, 11:59 PM

Shaq isnt enough to stop the skyhook, lol. Kareem was dropping 40 point games on Hakeem at the age of 38.

I never suggested anything about head to head or Kareem stopping Shaq, just the ridiculousness of Shaq's statement.

And I dont know much about peak Kareem but I hear his defense was nasty.
Yeah I'm not disputing that Shaq was full of shit on the "blocking skyhooks" part. And I'm with you on Kareem, didn't watch too much footage but am aware of his rep as a great defensive anchor. But peak Shaq is criminally underrated in that respect...he was lazy and lacked motivation for a huge chunk of his career..but at his absolute peak, when Phil really connected with him and Shaq "got it"? He was a DPOY-level defensive anchor and a legitimate game changer. I think they're on similar levels in terms of defensive impact..but while Kareem's skyhook would be indefensible for Shaq, I think the pure size, strength, power advantage Shaq has over Kareem would be just as indefensible. And I think Shaq could at the very least put a huge body on Kareem and hang with him as he's getting backed down in the post..while I think 2000 Shaq might overwhelm Kareem physically.

Smoke117

10-28-2014, 12:01 AM

Yeah I'm not disputing that Shaq was full of shit on the "blocking skyhooks" part. And I'm with you on Kareem, didn't watch too much footage but am aware of his rep as a great defensive anchor. But peak Shaq is criminally underrated in that respect...he was lazy and lacked motivation for a huge chunk of his career..but at his absolute peak, when Phil really connected with him and Shaq "got it"? He was a DPOY-level defensive anchor and a legitimate game changer. I think they're on similar levels in terms of defensive impact..but while Kareem's skyhook would be indefensible for Shaq, I think the pure size, strength, power advantage Shaq has over Kareem would be just as indefensible. And I think Shaq could at the very least put a huge body on Kareem and hang with him as he's getting backed down in the post..while I think 2000 Shaq might overwhelm Kareem physically.

None of these things have to do with stopping Kareem in the post. You are talking about team defense. Shaq even when he wasn't lazy was never known for his one on one defense. Kareem would do whatever he pleased offensively. Wilt had a much bigger body than Kareem and he couldn't stop him...so I doubt Shaq is.

Milbuck

10-28-2014, 12:03 AM

None of these things have to do with stopping Kareem in the post. You are talking about team defense. Shaq even when he wasn't lazy was never known for his one on one defense. Kareem would do whatever he pleased offensively.
And I never said he wouldn't..I just think all things considered, at their peaks, I'd bet on Shaq doing a better job defensively on Kareem than the other way around. That's all.

sundizz

10-28-2014, 12:33 AM

Shaq was actually an excellent man to man defender. It's just that he never cared to sustain it for an entire season. In the playoffs however he absolutely was a stud on defense on possessions it really mattered. He took the challenge and bodied up the best of the bigs of his generation no problem. Quick enough to move laterally in front of them and strong enough to get them out of their spot. He would definitely be able to get Kareem out of his spot. Also Shaq's best defense weapon was his offensive punishment. His constant bullying of Kareem on the offensive side would wear down Kareem a lot more than people seem to realize. He would be a step slower over the course of a game with the beating Shaq delivers. I'm not saying that Shaq would stop him - but he would definitely bother Kareem. On the other hand, Kareem really can't do much to stop Shaq....possibly irritate him a little bit but the clear difference in strength, power and explosiveness would make it a typical head2head with Shaq were Shaq dominates the other center.

PHILA

10-28-2014, 01:06 AM

Early KAJ with Milwaukee was insanely agile and quick, however he is giving up roughly 100 lbs to Shaq. He could be muscled out of good position by centers like Wilt, Reed, Unseld, Cowens, etc. Wilt at his age was not nearly agile enough, but was able to cause problems due to his strength and reach on the hook. Thurmond was the most effective since he had the strength & agility.

Reed in 1970 a great job using his body, but still was giving up at least 5 inches in height.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8QJQpUH-to&t=15m38s

Below is an example of him driving across the lane right out of the low post and going into his hook shot against Bellamy. Excellent quickness and no need for him to even face up before the drive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BY8l0aq8CwM&t=12m34s

He would definitely be able to get Kareem out of his spot.
Shaq would probably play him like Wilt did, since he also has a big strength advantage over KAJ but is not nearly as agile. Also try to keep him off the right block, and really be aggressive physically when he does catch it there.

In this link below, Wilt is muscling him aggressively, forcing a very tough shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKkQyNyXICQ&t=3m40s

The last thing Shaq would want is him to be comfortable on the right block where he could shoot it with his right hand and protect the shot much better against the help defense by turning to the baseline. He was getting a clean look virtually every time, given that his man was typically unable to challenge the shot and the help defense couldn't get to it without climbing up his arm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usDqCrm0r_w&t=3m20s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usDqCrm0r_w&t=6m50s

SHAQisGOAT

10-28-2014, 01:16 AM

Early KAJ with Milwaukee was insanely agile and quick, however he is giving up roughly 100 lbs to Shaq.

One of the reasons why Kareem's peak was around 1977... He had put on some considerable weight to deal with them bigger centers, he still had plenty of athleticism, had more experience ofc, smarter on both ends, skyhook was even better, using it more with the left hand, better shooter...
Terrific regular-season in 1977, 53W with a team that "shouldn't" have been close to that tbh, then just went completely wild in the Playoffs (against Cliff Ray, Parish or Walton), as the team was nothing special at all, and 2 of his 3 best teammates were injured.

Milbuck

10-28-2014, 01:24 AM

And Kareem would've gotten a couple of DPOY's at least, had the award been given before 1983, so I don't really get the argument you're trying to make...

My argument was just that peak Shaq was an underrated defender. And that his prowess at that time combined with his overwhelming size/strength/power advantage might give him the edge when it comes to the two of them guarding each other. That I'd bet on Shaq doing a better job on Kareem than the other way around.

sportjames23

10-28-2014, 01:26 AM

Kareem didn't really like physical play, so Shaq could muscle him around. But Shaq ain't blocking the skyhook.

SHAQisGOAT

10-28-2014, 01:40 AM

My argument was just that peak Shaq was an underrated defender. And that his prowess at that time combined with his overwhelming size/strength/power advantage might give him the edge when it comes to the two of them guarding each other. That I'd bet on Shaq doing a better job on Kareem than the other way around.

And I agree with that 100%.

Like I've said, I'd bet on that too, but then when you consider other parts of the game (team D, on/off-court chemistry, passing, shooting FT's at the end, scoring versatility...) and also overall intangibles, it most likely "goes" to Kareem... That's why it's such an extremely tough choice, and can go either way really.

Plus, no man could/would stop the other, decisively.

L.A. Jazz

10-28-2014, 03:35 AM

I know Shaq was mad, big sinsitive ass boy.
Absolutely right!

AintNoSunshine

10-28-2014, 05:37 AM

Shaq talking about Kareem "I'd be blocking his sky hook." Billups gives him the side eye.

Zeke to Shaq "You know I love you but Kareem at 22-25 would have been killing you."

I know Shaq was mad, big sinsitive ass boy.

Shaq at his peak would have gotten the better end of any center in basketball history, so he shouldn't be mad at all.

And Wilt blocked Kareem's shot twice in a row so why couldn't Shaq occasionally?

CavaliersFTW

10-28-2014, 06:12 AM

One of the reasons why Kareem's peak was around 1977... He had put on some considerable weight to deal with them bigger centers, he still had plenty of athleticism, had more experience ofc, smarter on both ends, skyhook was even better, using it more with the left hand, better shooter...
Terrific regular-season in 1977, 53W with a team that "shouldn't" have been close to that tbh, then just went completely wild in the Playoffs (against Cliff Ray, Parish or Walton), as the team was nothing special at all, and 2 of his 3 best teammates were injured.
I'm not sure what considerable weight is, as he only added 15lbs to his frame from his rookie season to 1977. Kareem only played at 240lbs even into the mid 1980's. He bulked up to his maximum 267lbs only in his twilight when his productive seasons were well behind him. His entire game revolved around maintaining a frame that utilized quickness and agility over strength, in a mold more like Bill Russell than like a Wilt or Shaq.

http://mit.zenfs.com/207/2011/05/WiltKAJ.jpg

Kareem is still only about 240lbs in this picture, that being the 1980's. As a rookie he was 228lbs. I do think however, that his legs were pretty well filled out and he was probably exceptionally strong at his base relative to the rest of his body, he probably wasn't as strong in the block as the strongest guys in the league at any given time (like the Wilt's, Gilmores, Dawkins, Eatons etc) but I'd almost be willing to bet even at 240 his lower body at least was stronger than 70% of the active centers he faced at any given time. He appears to more than hold his own physically when pushing and shoving against very strong players, even at 240. And as far as actual game impact goes he dominated pretty much everyone. His agility is his strong point though, it is startling in his early years, in his first few years in the league he might be the most agile looking 7-2 player ever though maybe Ralph Sampson would give him a run for that title but young/prime Alcindor/Kareem I think was stronger than Sampson ever got anyways.

CavaliersFTW

10-28-2014, 06:15 AM

Kareem didn't really like physical play, so Shaq could muscle him around. But Shaq ain't blocking the skyhook.
This isn't true at all, Kareem/Alcindor played extremely physical against physical players in all footage I've seen of him. He really went at guys like Wilt. In fact he admitted he played his absolute hardest against physical players like Wilt because he felt he had too due to the psychological edge those type of players held over the rest of the league that didn't play them with enough grit and physicality.

Cocaine80s

10-28-2014, 06:25 AM

is there a link of this on youtube? i wanna see shaqs reaction

Hamtaro CP3KDKG

10-28-2014, 07:34 AM

Shaq action a fool there, I'm with Isiah on this one...

And Kareem would've gotten a couple of DPOY's at least, had the award been given before 1983, so I don't really get the argument you're trying to make...

With that said, I think I'd pick Shaq when it comes to m2m defense because Kareem sometimes got "killed" by very big, skilled and physical centers (Shaq being one, so regarding the 1on1 he probably would've stood better chances), but Jabbar has him beat in terms of overall team D, at center.

One thing they got in common, defensively, is that they didn't like to come out and challenge on the perimeter a lot, which could be detrimental sometimes...

Love Shaq and if I had to pick the greatest peak ever I'd probably go with him... but him vs peak Kareem? Can go either way really, and I'm not talking just about the 1on1 but overall impact towards their team winning... And tbh, Kareem probably gets the slight edge when you measure every part of the game, including intangibles(which could very well be the game changer here), but it's hard to tell...

Oh, and both at their best? Neither has a chance at (decisively) stopping the other.
I have KAJ as the GOAT but he never deserved DPOY or was on that level defensively

StephHamann

10-28-2014, 07:43 AM

Someone has a video?

Psileas

10-28-2014, 08:13 AM

Below is an example of him driving across the lane right out of the low post and going into his hook shot against Bellamy. Excellent quickness and no need for him to even face up before the drive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BY8l0aq8CwM&t=12m34s

This isn't Kareem's debut, right? Which game is it?

Edit: This must be it: http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/197002270MIL.html

Bigsmoke

10-28-2014, 08:43 AM

Kareem actually got some other moves down on the block

http://youtu.be/s_kn6kLRs5o

AirFederer

10-28-2014, 09:06 AM

Shaq was shook when Wilt shaked his hand. No such video of Kareem. Wilt also took out a lion and was a world class ski jumper, volleball player (HOF material), high jumper, pole vaulter, shot putter and could bench 700 lbs. And Shaq was lazy. And fat. And greedy. And Lazy.

Wilt>Kareem>>>>>>>>Shaq

c5terror

10-28-2014, 09:24 AM

Shaq talking about Kareem "I'd be blocking his sky hook." Billups gives him the side eye.

Zeke to Shaq "You know I love you but Kareem at 22-25 would have been killing you."

I know Shaq was mad, big sinsitive ass boy.

WTF, Kareem ain't no stopping shaq, shaq would destroy him, Kareem best chanse is to foul shaq and make him miss freethrow..

Dam, Kareem is much more overrated than Lebron.

Dr.J4ever

10-28-2014, 10:01 AM

One of the reasons why Kareem's peak was around 1977... He had put on some considerable weight to deal with them bigger centers, he still had plenty of athleticism, had more experience ofc, smarter on both ends, skyhook was even better, using it more with the left hand, better shooter...
Terrific regular-season in 1977, 53W with a team that "shouldn't" have been close to that tbh, then just went completely wild in the Playoffs (against Cliff Ray, Parish or Walton), as the team was nothing special at all, and 2 of his 3 best teammates were injured.

Good point about Kareem's peak being 1977. I would extend it to 1980, maybe even to 1982.

Yes, Kaj had bigger numbers scoring wise and pure rebounding numbers really early in his career , but I really believe Kaj's skyhook was more accurate later in his career. He was more agile early in his career, and just watching film of him shows me that Kareem had a wider variety of shots he went to in his first couple of years.

During the 80s, Kaj seemed to go to the skyhook almost 70-80% of his post ups, just based on my memory. I don't know if anyone will back me here, but Kaj's skyhook became a more devastating shot in the 80s, and possibly as early as 1977, as you say.

So when people say Kaj's peak came in the early 70s due to his higher stats, I could only add that he was more athletic during those early years, but during the early 80s, Kaj evolved to become a more mature version, with an even more devastatingly accurate skyhook, the most unstoppable shot in NBA history.

freshperry

10-28-2014, 10:05 AM

If we're just talking about shaq's claim that he would block the skyhook....I call BS on that. Shaq vs hakeem in the finals and shaq got swept with hakeem averaging like 33 points a game. The skyhook is just as dominant as Hakeem's dream shakes and its evident that shaq couldn't defend either. (very effectively, but then again who could)

choppermagic

10-28-2014, 10:23 AM

Offensively, neither could stop the other. It would be like two guys dueling with cannons instead of pistols and bodyarmour.

I dont know why Shaq would be upset. NO ONE can guard the skyhook. It's the most unstoppable shot in basketball history. No shame in that. At best, he could try to wear Kareem down, but Kareem was a fitness freak too so had great endurance and longevity.

ArbitraryWater

10-28-2014, 10:25 AM

fpliii

10-28-2014, 10:38 AM

Shaq and Hakeem are the best two players I've seen live at their peaks (didn't start watching until the last year of his first threepeat, before an MJ fan comes in and bitches), but I'm very impressed with Kareem.

I've always looked at 77-80 as his absolute peak range, but it's really hard to look past his mobility as a younger player. He looks like an absolute monster in terms of his athleticism. Stuff you don't expect from a seven-footer. Not just open-court speed, but reaction time, lateral quickness, ability to recover, etc. All this helps a ton with defense.

I think his offensive game improved as he got older for sure, and he definitely got stronger (the guys Shaq disliked going against were generally huge players), but I think a nimble, young Kareem with the ability to stretch the floor, would be a tougher matchup than the 77-80 versions.

SHAQisGOAT

10-28-2014, 10:41 AM

I'm not sure what considerable weight is, as he only added 15lbs to his frame from his rookie season to 1977. Kareem only played at 240lbs even into the mid 1980's.

Well, better to be at 240 lbs than at 225, when you're dealing with those big boys.

Kareem actually got some other moves down on the block

http://youtu.be/s_kn6kLRs5o

People who think Kareem was all about the skyhook or something, never really seen him play or only watched him in his final years...

Yea, he had the greatest scoring move in basketball history in his arsenal, but also a nice turnaround J from the post, he was very mobile and could take it to the rack or finish the break, he had great footwork and could hit you with fakes, he even hit some mid-range jumpers and was hitting FT's at higher than 70%.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayAz8EpuNUM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K32jL8oAapk&t=1m14s

SHAQisGOAT

10-28-2014, 10:41 AM

I have KAJ as the GOAT but he never deserved DPOY or was on that level defensively

:biggums:

Made 5 all-defensive 1st teams (with elite centers in the league, and also some all-defensive 2nd).
Led the league in DWS 2 times, was 7 times top5.
3 times top3 in DRtg.
Led the league in blocks per game 4 times, was top3 9 times.
Anchored a top2 defense 4 times, and a top10 defense more than 12 times throughout his career.
...

We can go through some years from 1970-1980 (mostly 1974 and 1979, even 1980) and I would like you to tell me who would've been a better choice for DPOY than Kareem... We can even dig out some articles and whatnot.

I mean, you got some years in which he was the leader in BPG, and also at the very top in terms of DWS and DRtg, or leading top10 defenses with not much help at that... Then he was voted as all-defensive 1st at the center spot, which is many times basically the most impactful defender since centers have the "opportunity" to be more impactful on defense than any other position...

SHAQisGOAT

10-28-2014, 11:07 AM

Kareem at 39 was still dropping 40 on Hakeem and Sampson (once 46), also on Ewing... Still put up 27 PPG on 50% FG, in a series vs the twin towers.

And I'm talking about a 39 years old man, after many years of basketball, going against very athletic and young bigman, who played D... One was almost 7 foot, moved around like a perimeter player, was making all-defensive already in his 1st year and went on to become a top2 defensive center in NBA history; the other was 7'3'' with a mid-30's vertical, played PF, blocked some shots and created TO's...

That was a bad man

Good point about Kareem's peak being 1977. I would extend it to 1980, maybe even to 1982.

Yes, Kaj had bigger numbers scoring wise and pure rebounding numbers really early in his career , but I really believe Kaj's skyhook was more accurate later in his career. He was more agile early in his career, and just watching film of him shows me that Kareem had a wider variety of shots he went to in his first couple of years.

During the 80s, Kaj seemed to go to the skyhook almost 70-80% of his post ups, just based on my memory. I don't know if anyone will back me here, but Kaj's skyhook became a more devastating shot in the 80s, and possibly as early as 1977, as you say.

So when people say Kaj's peak came in the early 70s due to his higher stats, I could only add that he was more athletic during those early years, but during the early 80s, Kaj evolved to become a more mature version, with an even more devastatingly accurate skyhook, the most unstoppable shot in NBA history.

Yea, some people will just look at the raw (regular-season) stats and claim that his peak came in his earlier years...
And I'm not denying he had some beastly seasons (like his 1972 RS), but again, you look at his 1977 RS:
-he was 1st in FG% (only time in his career) and 2nd in TS%
-3rd in PPG
-2nd in RPG
-2nd in BPG
-1st in PER
-1st in OWS
-1st in DWS
-1st in WS
-3rd in DRtg
-played 82 games but didn't even reach 37 min per game, not even top10!
-unexpectedly led the team to 53 wins
...
Then in the Playoffs, with 2 of his 3 best teammates injured, he went completely wild in probably in his best ever post-season...
Over the course of 11 games: 34.6/17.7/4.1/1.7/3.5 on 60.7% FG and 72.5% FT (shooting 11 per game) :eek: :bowdown:
Matching up against Clifford Ray/Parish then Walton, and they were throwing everything at him as the team didn't have much more.

Like I've said, he was smarter on both ends and more experienced, the skyhook was more developed and with the left too, improved overall post-game, had put on some weight to better deal with bigger centers, was still pretty athletic, better shooter...

fpliii

10-28-2014, 11:08 AM

SHAQisGOAT - How many of his seasons would you say were definitely better than his year in 74?

SHAQisGOAT

10-28-2014, 11:19 AM

SHAQisGOAT - How many of his seasons would you say were definitely better than his year in 74?

His 1974 post-season is one of his top5 best. As far as the regular-season, regarding defense it's most likely his best, he was also doing a terrific job in getting wins and had a great offensive year yet again(probably just shy of his top4/5)... So yea, he only had a few years better than that.

PHILA

10-28-2014, 12:13 PM

This isn't Kareem's debut, right? Which game is it?

Edit: This must be it: http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/197002270MIL.htmlhttp://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/196910300DET.html

julizaver

10-28-2014, 12:28 PM

And Wilt blocked Kareem's shot twice in a row so why couldn't Shaq occasionally?

Because of several things:

1) Wilt was better athlete, better leaper and had better timing

2) Wilt occasionally leave some space to KAJ in order to prepare better his jump and then leap as high as he could (the two block shots video and the 33 streak ending game in 1972 perfectly show how Wilt guarded Kareem - and on few occasions he almost blocked his sky hooks). Even KAJ admitted that he used hooks with higher arc against Wilt.

3) Shaq will guard Kareem closely and tightly in the paint so if KAJ receive the ball he will try to push him, but he wouldn't be able to block the sky hook if KAJ release it.