2014 Edition of ISH's All-Time List: #19

[DaSeba5]

http://www.hoopasylum.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Dirk-Nowitzki-2.jpg

The winner of thread #18 was Dirk Nowitzki.

Current ISH All-Time List:
1. Michael Jordan- SG. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=348939)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - C. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=348961)
3. Bill Russel- C. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349040)
4. Wilt Chamberlain- C. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349136)
5. Tim Duncan- PF/C. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349216)
6. Larry Bird- SF/PF. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349328)
7. Magic Johnson- PG. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349510)
8. Shaquille O'Neal- C. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349818)
9. Kobe Bryant- SG. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349979)
10. LeBron James- SF. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349984)
11. Hakeem Olajuwon- C. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=350048)
12. Oscar Robertson- PG/SG. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=350128)
13. Moses Malone- PF/C. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=350215)
14. Jerry West- G. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=350309)
15. Julius Erving- F/G. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=350399)
16. Elgin Baylor- SF/PF. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=350523)
17. Kevin Garnett- PF/C. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=350599)
18. Dirk Nowitzki- PF. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=350690)


VOTE COUNT:
Pippen-2
Malone-12
Barkley-9
Havlicek-10
Frazier-1
Pettit-3
Stockton-1
Ewing-1
Wade-4
Robinson-3
Thomas-1

[Im so nba'd out]

Scottie Pippen

[ArbitraryWater]

Erving/Baylor too high

This should be Barkley/Malone

[Smook A.]

Karl Malone

[SexSymbol]

John Havlicek. C'mon how underrated is this man?

[fpliii]

http://getdangoodman.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/clyde-header-ii2.jpg

[Sakkreth]

Barkley

[StephHamann]

Hondo

[MP.Trey]

Karl Malone.

[Milbuck]

Karl Malone

[Fudge]

John Havlicek

[kkb_12]

Pippen

[Harison]

Havlicek

[Y2ktors]

Hondo

[GrapeApe]

Mailman.

[DMAVS41]

Pettit

[SexSymbol]

Y'all gonna go Havlicek over Barkley/Malone :coleman:
Everybody should do that.
Same with Pettit and Mikan

[navy]

Y'all gonna go Havlicek over Barkley/Malone :coleman:
Well yall stan voted in Dirk and KG so it doesnt matter at this point.

[duskovujosevic]

Stockton.

[Richesly]

Patrick Ewing

[OncePerMonth]

Malone.

[DMAVS41]

Well yall stan voted in Dirk and KG so it doesnt matter at this point.

Oh yes...it's so crazy to put Dirk and KG right there with the other legends of the game.

It could go in any order outside of the top 5 or 6...or top 8.

We really gonna sit here and say Kobe deserves to be voted over Pettit? Why? Because he played with Shaq for 8 years?

The problem is that you guys cherry pick where the line is.

Or why Kobe or Hakeem or West or Moses...etc. are ranked over Hondo? Why do Kobe's 5 titles carry so much value and Hondo's 8 don't?

It's just so arbitrary....so lets tap the breaks on acting like KG and Dirk barely squeezing into the top 20 is some travesty.

[VengefulAngel]

Dwyane Wade, lets get this man on this list already.

[navy]

Oh yes...it's so crazy to put Dirk and KG right there with the other legends of the game.

It could go in any order outside of the top 5 or 6...or top 8.

We really gonna sit here and say Kobe deserves to be voted over Pettit? Why? Because he played with Shaq for 8 years?

The problem is that you guys cherry pick where the line is.

Or why Kobe or Hakeem or West or Moses...etc. are ranked over Hondo? Why do Kobe's 5 titles carry so much value and Hondo's 8 don't?

It's just so arbitrary....so lets tap the breaks on acting like KG and Dirk barely squeezing into the top 20 is some travesty.
I dont have a problem with it. Im just saying, you cant really complain about where people vote in those others players now that we've reached this point.

[Fire Colangelo]

Barkley.

[DMAVS41]

I dont have a problem with it. Im just saying, you cant really complain about where people vote in those others players now that we've reached this point.

I agree.

I'm not complaining.

Honestly, after;

MJ
Russell
Kareem
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Duncan

At least for me, you can start going in a lot of different ways.

On paper, why is Hakeem ranked so much higher than Pettit? It really doesn't make sense. Same thing with Kobe vs Pettit...why? Again...just doesn't make sense.

Why is Hondo so overlooked?

Was Moses really that much better of a player than Barkley or KG? (I'll leave Dirk out of this)...I certainly don't think so and I saw most of Moses's career and virtually all of his prime.

We just have to admit it's really hard and often arbitrary.

Especially when most of us didn't see these older guys.

I'm not even sure Kblaze saw some of them. I can't remember if he saw guys like Pettit play.

[dyna]

Barkley

[ArbitraryWater]

I'm not even sure Kblaze saw some of them. I can't remember if he saw guys like Pettit play.

Kblaze didn't see Pettit.. He's not that old.


You should mention jlauber or someone else here.. But Kblaze really isn't very old.

[DFish24]

David Robinson

[DMAVS41]

Kblaze didn't see Pettit.. He's not that old.


You should mention jlauber or someone else here.. But Kblaze really isn't very old.

I have no idea...that is why I'm asking. He talks like he knows a lot about guys like Pettit and Hondo...so I'm assuming he was old enough.

Even he didn't see them play...kind of hard to say much of note to be honest.

[aj1987]

Wade.

[K Xerxes]

I agree.

I'm not complaining.

Honestly, after;

MJ
Russell
Kareem
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Duncan

At least for me, you can start going in a lot of different ways.

On paper, why is Hakeem ranked so much higher than Pettit? It really doesn't make sense. Same thing with Kobe vs Pettit...why? Again...just doesn't make sense.

Why is Hondo so overlooked?

Was Moses really that much better of a player than Barkley or KG? (I'll leave Dirk out of this)...I certainly don't think so and I saw most of Moses's career and virtually all of his prime.

We just have to admit it's really hard and often arbitrary.

Especially when most of us didn't see these older guys.

I'm not even sure Kblaze saw some of them. I can't remember if he saw guys like Pettit play.

The debate is what makes it interesting. Ranking people who you've never seen versus people you have seen doesn't make sense in of itself, but it's fun, which is why people do it. We're inevitably going to get debates about the old time players not making it high enough on the list. I think, to a lot of us, it's just weird to put some of the best players we've ever seen so far down the list. For example, Dirk and KG are not the 17th and 18th best players 99% of this forum has seen, but that's how it is when taking into account people we've never seen.

Tbh, most people in this forum should have a list consisting of only the following:

Jordan
Hakeem
Duncan
Kobe
Shaq
Lebron
KG
Dirk
Barkley
Karl Malone

Maybe some will have Magic, Bird and Isiah too. Some will only have Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, LeBron, KG and Dirk. Hell, some will only have LeBron.

The list is only really legitimate when we've seen a good part of their careers and seen how the performed day in day out. But it's not as fun as going back through history, so we do 'all time' instead. Meh, let it be.

[nzahir]

Malone...its honestly a tossup between charles and karl for me

[DMAVS41]

The debate is what makes it interesting. Ranking people who you've never seen versus people you have seen doesn't make sense in of itself, but it's fun, which is why people do it. We're inevitably going to get debates about the old time players not making it high enough on the list. I think, to a lot of us, it's just weird to put some of the best players we've ever seen so far down the list. For example, Dirk and KG are not the 17th and 18th best players 99% of this forum has seen, but that's how it is when taking into account people we've never seen.

Tbh, most people in this forum should have a list consisting of only the following:

Jordan
Hakeem
Duncan
Kobe
Shaq
Lebron
KG
Dirk
Barkley
Karl Malone

Maybe some will have Magic, Bird and Isiah too. Some will only have Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, LeBron, KG and Dirk. Hell, some will only have LeBron.

The list is only really legitimate when we've seen a good part of their careers and seen how the performed day in day out. But it's not as fun as going back through history, so we do 'all time' instead. Meh, let it be.

I agree.

Which is why after the top 6 to 8 or so...it could go in so many different orders.

I'm really gonna sit here and argue with someone that watched Hondo play his whole career if he ranks him over Kobe? Nah...I just don't know enough.

[ArbitraryWater]

Some Wade stans will be furious when he winds up 25-30

[VengefulAngel]

Some Wade stans will be furious when he winds up 25-30

So underrated...

[G.O.A.T]

The debate is what makes it interesting. Ranking people who you've never seen versus people you have seen doesn't make sense in of itself, but it's fun, which is why people do it. We're inevitably going to get debates about the old time players not making it high enough on the list. I think, to a lot of us, it's just weird to put some of the best players we've ever seen so far down the list. For example, Dirk and KG are not the 17th and 18th best players 99% of this forum has seen, but that's how it is when taking into account people we've never seen.

Tbh, most people in this forum should have a list consisting of only the following:

Jordan
Hakeem
Duncan
Kobe
Shaq
Lebron
KG
Dirk
Barkley
Karl Malone

Maybe some will have Magic, Bird and Isiah too. Some will only have Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, LeBron, KG and Dirk. Hell, some will only have LeBron.

The list is only really legitimate when we've seen a good part of their careers and seen how the performed day in day out. But it's not as fun as going back through history, so we do 'all time' instead. Meh, let it be.

I very much disagree with the idea that you should only be able to properly rank players you've seen. For many reasons.

1) If we only ranked players based on what we've seen with our eyes, most of us are ranking a player based on 1-5% of his career.

2) No matter how astute someone is they know more about the game and understand more as they get older. Why shouldn't someone apply what they know now to what happened then? It's not as if we are without a written and oral history of much of the game.

3) We need to consider other people's opinions when we rank players more than our own. In the end the ranking is going to reflect a persons biases, but the goal is for that bias to be is insignificant as possible. This allows us to consider players we've rarely or never seen live.

4) With all the archival footage available today, I've gone back and re-watched games I had watched live and realized my perception of the game or memory of the game was wrong. If that instance, someone who was not even born when the game was played could have just as informed an opinion as I did having attended it or watched it 20 some years prior.

5) It's no fun to limit yourself. The more you learn the more you know and the more you know the more you learn what you don't know. You know? The whole point of ranking and discussing player for me is to learn more about them and the game, to heighten my enjoyment of my favorite hobby by understanding it's universe better and be able to participate in every aspect of it I can.

[DMAVS41]

Some Wade stans will be furious when he winds up 25-30

Yea, I'm not sure if we are treating him fairly, but the truth is that his play the last two years hasn't been very good.

He's declined a lot more than the numbers indicate.

He isn't defending at all the last two years, he's been hurt, and he's playing limited minutes next to the best player in the game while resting a lot in the regular season.

Hopefully Wade can lose some weight and get healthy and have a good end to his career.

His longevity is the problem at this point...if he gets a few more quality years under his belt it will really help.

I just can't put him over guys like Dirk and KG at this point though...

[BlkMambaGOAT]

Hondo

[DMAVS41]

I very much disagree with the idea that you should only be able to properly rank players you've seen. For many reasons.

1) If we only ranked players based on what we've seen with our eyes, most of us are ranking a player based on 1-5% of his career.

2) No matter how astute someone is they know more about the game and understand more as they get older. Why shouldn't someone apply what they know now to what happened then? It's not as if we are without a written and oral history of much of the game.

3) We need to consider other people's opinions when we rank players more than our own. In the end the ranking is going to reflect a persons biases, but the goal is for that bias to be is insignificant as possible. This allows us to consider players we've rarely or never seen live.

4) With all the archival footage available today, I've gone back and re-watched games I had watched live and realized my perception of the game or memory of the game was wrong. If that instance, someone who was not even born when the game was played could have just as informed an opinion as I did having attended it or watched it 20 some years prior.

5) It's no fun to limit yourself. The more you learn the more you know and the more you know the more you learn what you don't know. You know? The whole point of ranking and discussing player for me is to learn more about them and the game, to heighten my enjoyment of my favorite hobby by understanding it's universe better and be able to participate in every aspect of it I can.


I don't think he meant to say we "can't" rank players we didn't see.

It's just really hard to have an informed proper debate between a guy like Pettit and KG for example...it's not so much not seeing them play...it's the 40 year gap in them playing.

There are some guys that just separate themselves from others in a way nobody can deny and seeing it or not probably doesn't matter a ton like you say.

But when you get outside the obvious...it's just really hard. I simply know way more about how good Jordan, Bird, and Magic were....compared to Jerry West and Hondo.

Just like I know far more about a Moses vs KG debate than I do about either of those guys vs Pettit.

I think that was his point...and I agree with that.

Not saying we can't rank players we never saw...it's just a lot harder.

[Shade8780]

Oh ffs :facepalm

http://www.novobasqueteceara.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/1263f-john_havlicek_1973_01_01.jpg

[stalkerforlife]

Karl Malone.

And too low for him.

[aj1987]

He isn't defending at all the last two years, he's been hurt, and he's playing limited minutes next to the best player in the game while resting a lot in the regular season.
He was a pretty good defender in '13. His defense was on point during the streak. He struggled in the Playoffs ('13) due to his injuries and was garbage defensively in '14 though.

[VengefulAngel]

He was a pretty good defender in '13. His defense was on point during the streak. He struggled in the Playoffs ('13) due to his injuries and was garbage defensively in '14 though.

14 Wade was so sad to see, he was abysmal defensively and horrible in the finals.

[aj1987]

14 Wade was so sad to see, he was abysmal defensively and horrible in the finals.
True. I hope he can get back to being '12 Wade though. This is going to be a pretty interesting season. Miami beating the Cavs in the Playoffs would be EPIC.

[zoom17]

Barkley

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Bob Pettit

[robert_shaww]

Havlicek

[DaSeba5]

We're tied.

[stalkerforlife]

Karl Malone.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

Hondo.

[T_L_P]

Pettit

[longhornfan1234]

Admiral.

[Verticality]

Karl

[Bernie Nips]

Barkley

[JohnFreeman]

wade

[miles berg]

Charles Barkley

[wally_world]

Wow didn't know Sir Charles havent made it. Would think he's above KG/Dirk.

But im sticking with Isiah Thomas

[That_Admiral]

barkley

[LongLiveTheKing]

Wade

[Rolando]

hondo

[DaSeba5]

I'm going to say Hondo.

It's too close to move on, so I'll wait until next time I'm on.

[turnaroundJ]

Charles Barkley

[pauk]

Karl Malone.

[#number6ix#]

Mailman

[Big#50]

Robinson should be #14. Dude was outplayed bad by Hakeem in one series, but he was an all time great.