2014 Edition of ISH's All-Time List: #18

[DaSeba5]

http://gothicginobili.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/the-sadness-of-kevin-garnett.jpg

The winner of thread #17 was Kevin Garnett.

Current ISH All-Time List:
1. Michael Jordan- SG. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=348939)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - C. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=348961)
3. Bill Russel- C. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349040)
4. Wilt Chamberlain- C. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349136)
5. Tim Duncan- PF/C. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349216)
6. Larry Bird- SF/PF. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349328)
7. Magic Johnson- PG. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349510)
8. Shaquille O'Neal- C. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349818)
9. Kobe Bryant- SG. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349979)
10. LeBron James- SF. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349984)
11. Hakeem Olajuwon- C. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=350048)
12. Oscar Robertson- PG/SG. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=350128)
13. Moses Malone- PF/C. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=350215)
14. Jerry West- G. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=350309)
15. Julius Erving- F/G. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=350399)
16. Elgin Baylor- SF/PF. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=350523)
17. Kevin Garnett- PF/C. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=350599)


VOTE COUNT:
Dirk-14
Wade-5
Barkley-2
Barry-1
Malone-4
Stockton-1
Pippen-2
Mikan-2
Thomas-2
Havlicek-1

[stalkerforlife]

Dirk.

Too low, but Dirk.

[fpliii]

KG got in way too late, same will be the case with Dirk (my vote here).

[red1]

http://www.supersportscenter.com/images/product/icon/2527.jpg

[DMV2]

Sticking with Barkley since the last 2 round :lol

[navy]

So are we saying fvck Hondo, petite, and Mikan?

[jcsrplumply]

Rick Barry

[fpliii]

So are we saying fvck Hondo, petite, and Mikan?
Hard for me to place much stock in a guy who played in a segregated league, and did his damage before the shot clock was introduced. Too many question marks.

Pettit for sure. Not sure how I feel about Hondo here.

[JohnFreeman]

Wade

[Milbuck]

Dirk.

[DaSeba5]

Between Barkley/Malone/Dirk/Robinson/Hondo for me.

Still not sure what to think of Mikan and Pettit, are they really getting the short end of the stick here?

Pick one please lol.

[navy]

Hard for me to place much stock in a guy who played in a segregated league, and did his damage before the shot clock was introduced. Too many question marks.

Pettit for sure. Not sure how I feel about Hondo here.
Well I mean if they dont get in around now (they wont), why put them in later?

[DMV2]

So are we saying fvck Hondo, petite, and Mikan?
Hondo played for the Celtics.
Petitt played in St. Louis.
Mikan played for the original Lakers in Minneapolis.

That's all I know about them to be honest. Not really a fck you to them, but way too old school to me really care.

[Le Shaqtus]

Dirk

[DaSeba5]

I imagine this thread will be dominated by Dirk, but you never know.

[Natureland]

Dirk

[DaSeba5]

I'll take my time if i want :coleman: :lol

I still think people should give atleast a somewhat detailed explanation for their pick instead of just posting a name/photo. Especially when it comes to the picks at this part of the list considering how close it is between players.

Agreed. The last thread was pretty good for that... at least somewhat. It was the biggest thread so far and people really got into a good debate.

[tmacattack33]

Karl Malone

[miles berg]

Dirk

[Rodmantheman]

Barkley

[fpliii]

Well I mean if they dont get in around now (they wont), why put them in later?
Good point. I do feel like Pettit and Hondo have a place somewhere in the rankings, but I haven't seen/read enough of them to feel comfortable voting for them.

[DMV2]

Agreed. The last thread was pretty good for that... at least somewhat. It was the biggest thread so far and people really got into a good debate.
That last thread was good because I didn't realized we had that many Dirk stans here. :eek:

[fpliii]

Hondo played for the Celtics.
Petitt played in St. Louis.
Mikan played for the original Lakers in Minneapolis.

That's all I know about them to be honest. Not really a fck you to them, but way too old school to me really care.
To be fair, should we be calling this an "all-time" list then?

I'm not saying I disagree BTW, but maybe something like "best players I've seen" would be more apt then.

[duskovujosevic]

Stockton.

[DaSeba5]

That last thread was good because I didn't realized we had that many Dirk stans here. :eek:

They've been voting for him since #11.

[MP.Trey]

Karl Malone for me. Barkley/Pettit/Dirk in some combo after that depending on my mood then probably Hondo and Mikan because they deserve in sooner than later. This lists get so hard at this point.

EDIT: Throw David Robinson somewhere in there. Forgetting the Admiral. :facepalm

[OncePerMonth]

Dirk of course.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Dirk Nowitzki

[kkb_12]

Pippen

[played0ut]

Mikan

[Harison]

Mikan has to be up-there somethere. Yeah it was at the dawn of the basketball, but he flat out dominated.

[Yankstar]

Mailman :rockon:

[DaSeba5]

A lot of people have said Dirk and KG multiple times the last few threads, so things will get really interesting after this one.

[Smook A.]

http://i.imgur.com/OSot5Md.png

[creepingdeath]

Dirk

[StephHamann]

Dirk

[Sakkreth]

KG at 17 is stupid.

I vote Dirk.

[VengefulAngel]

http://www.supersportscenter.com/images/product/icon/2527.jpg

this

[aj1987]

Wade.

[raprap]

Pippen

[VengefulAngel]

Pippen

Pippen over Wade and Dirk are you being serious?

[K Xerxes]

Accomplishments won't convince me that Dirk was better than Barkley... Dude was an offensive monster in his prime/peak. I'll go with him.

[Sakkreth]

KG is way too high, he should be below Barkley and Dirk, maybe Malone too. That's 2-3 players of the same position only...

[joeyjoejoe]

Mailman

[Kblaze8855]

To be fair, should we be calling this an "all-time" list then?

I'm not saying I disagree BTW, but maybe something like "best players I've seen" would be more apt then.

It really would...because frankly...looking at accomplishments John Havlicek and Bob Petitt being behind Dirk(and KG) is laughable.

I went into Bob last time...and will now do Hondo even though a gang of Mavs fans are voting for Dirk no matter what just because KG already got in.

He won 8 rings....and that doesnt even fully explain his careers greatness.

He was a finals MVP....in the WORST postseason he ever had as a starter.

If they had finals MVP his entire career...this guy would be an 8 time champ and a 4 time finals MVP.

Not saying he was better than Russell...like Parker wasnt better than Duncan in 07 and Worthy wasnt better than Magic. But they won the award.

For 7 straight playoffs....

24/9/4
27/8/3
26/9/8
25/10/6
27/8/6
24/5/5
27/6/6

Hes an all star level player 15 years in row.

He made the first 8 all defensive teams....hes likely a 12-13 time all D teamer if the honor existed his entire career. It didnt exist till he was damn near 30.

He put up 29/9/8 back when you didnt get an assist if the guy you passed it to dribbled even once before he scored. He probably put up a good 29/9/10 by our loose standards.

He put up 28 a game in the 69 finals with 3 straight games of 37, 43, and 34.

27 a game in the 68 finals with 30/10 and 40/10/7 to close it out.

He put up 26/8/5 in the 74 finals.

And on the way to that finals...

Vs the Braves hes handing out 40 point games...closes them out with 30 and the game winner.

Closed the Knicks out with 33.

He damn near closed out Kareems Bucks in 6 with a 36 point game including a jumper to force OT and 9 of their 11 point in OT....including this:

Down 1 13 seconds left he overrules the coach telling the team to run it down and not call timeout...

http://imageshack.com/a/img631/9017/BK1VF3.gif

Evades Oscar Robertson and hits the floater over Kareem for his 36th point.


Kareem came right back at them but they won the series in 7.

Hondo was clutch as they come by all accounts. After one of his finals winning performances the Boston paper headline was


Two headlines you'll probably never read: "Pope Elopes" or "Havlicek Chokes."

Probably because he kept doing shit like this:


http://youtu.be/n3WMg_5SESo?t=2m12s


And as much as he won he could have won more. In 73 he led the Celtics to 68 wins....and was on top of his game.

You all know MJ has the playoff scoring record 63 points.

But guess who has the playoffs field goal record?

Hondo. From 1973. After leading his team to 68 wins...first game of the playoffs he drops 54 on the Hawks. Made 24 shots. 2 more than Jordan in his 63 point game.

Anyway after they put the Hawks away(as usual he took over the closeout game)...he got hurt vs the Knicks.

****ed up his shoulder...and the team lost in 6. Ruined the Celtics best record ever....Hondo got the Celtics more wins in 73 than Russell or Bird ever led them to.


Bill Russell considers him the best all around player hes ever seen....ahead of Oscar.

And these days all hes know for is "Havlicek stole the ball...its all over! Johnny Havlicek stole the ball!"

And its almost apt because...that was his career.

Its game 7...Russell turned it over giving Wilts team the chance to end the dynasty with a shot. Bill asks the team for help....he had saved them so many times they owed him one at least...

Ball inbounded...John intercepts it and knocks it to Sam Jones.

Buzzer. Celtics make the finals again.

Hondo is mobbed.

That was him. Make the big play. Do whatever it takes. Guard baylor or West....

Drop 50+ on the much more famous Pistol Pete and the Hawks.

Go have 25 points and 18 assists in a key game.

Drop 40 in the finals.

Hit the floater over Kareerm.

Steal it to send your team to the finals.

Whatever it took Hondo could do it.

But all anyone remember is "Havlicek stole the ball!"

That guy literally had 2 or 3 HOF careers in one.

33% of his accomplishments would get him into the hall of fame.

And he was the most beloved man in the NBA in his era.


Cowens added, "You tell me how many class guys there are like him anywhere. They ought to retire his number from the whole NBA. Just take 17 and stash it up there in lights."


That John Havliceks legacy is almost totally forgotten is more than a shame....

Its proof most of us here talking legacy are wasting our time.

When a career like John Havliceks is marginalized over time nobody is safe.

We talk all this legacy shit...the long term implications of this and that.

But when some of the greatest ever are right in our face we will ignore it due to our own bias.....

What does it even matter?

I just wish things like this wouldnt say "All time" if we dont mean it.

[r0drig0lac]

Isiah

[ArbitraryWater]

Well, Dirk comes in at 18 then..

Dirk

[K Xerxes]

x

It begs the question why Hondo and Pettit have been largely forgotten, but people still remember Oscar & Baylor and routinely rank them in the top 15. How different are those four players historically in all honesty? It's weird.

If we're ranking Wilt and Russell in the top 5, and Oscar and Baylor in the top 15... surely Hondo and Pettit rank in the top 15 too? At least top 20 and I doubt either will make it.

All-Time lists suck because of this. A 'best players you've seen' list is probably for the best.

[ArbitraryWater]

So are we saying fvck Hondo, petite, and Mikan?

Mikan usually comes in at 30-40.. It's not getting the short end of the stick really, it's putting them where they belong IMO.

[navy]

Mikan usually comes in at 30-40.. It's not getting the short end of the stick really, it's putting them where they belong IMO.
Based on what?

[Kblaze8855]

It begs the question why Hondo and Pettit have been largely forgotten, but people still remember Oscar & Baylor and routinely rank them in the top 15. How different are those four players historically in all honesty? It's weird.

If we're ranking Wilt and Russell in the top 5, and Oscar and Baylor in the top 15... surely Hondo and Pettit rank in the top 15 too? At least top 20 and I doubt either will make it.

All-Time lists suck because of this. A 'best players you've seen' list is probably for the best.


Especially since most cant explain why they vote in the first place.


They can tell you why ___ is great. But not why it makes ___ better than Hondo, Pettit, Isiah, and on and on and on.

Its why I never actually vote in these things.

You attempt to make a reasonable explanation that is thought out and justifiable...


Then 5 fans of the same team vote for their guy out of spite after seeing his rival already in.

And then a lot of those people wont even vote again.

Im not saying take it serious...that just isnt gonna happen.

But dont make it a total joke.

Too many people just want to see their guy as high as possible to take the final results even half serious.

[wally_world]

Isiah Thomas

[ArbitraryWater]

Argument: Dirk Nowitzki

11 straight 50 win seasons (Been done only by Magic/Kareem, Duncan, Russell, and was broken up by the lockout year, injury year and 49 wins in 2014.)
1 of 3 teams to make it out of the West from 1999-2011
1 of 4 players to average over 25 and 10 for his career in the Playoffs (26/10)
Led the worst team to ever win 67+ games
One of the 5 best elimination game players ever
One of the 5 best game 7 players ever (Just now in 2014 lost his first to the Champions)

And all of that playing with decent but not great teams and coaches. Just complimentary casts, shooters, role players... Dirk is a player who you surround with "complimentary players", and still get in the playoffs and contend. LeBron would be another one.

He's one of the most durable star players ever, playing in something like 98% of all games, and is on his way to a great "prime longevity" as I call it... Dirk in 2014, his 15th season, was still a top 6 player. (LeBron/KD/Griffin/Paul/Howard... Wouldn't take anyone else over Dirk)

Dirk's Defense is his only

[ArbitraryWater]

Based on what?

Based on playing in a time where the majority of other professional players had other jobs as well and basketball was just an activity done on the side.

Based on playing in an era that wasn't fully integrated yet, and 80+% whites...

Based on playing in the weakest era in basketball history.

But most importantly: Mikan didn't survive the SHOT CLOCK ERA. Once the shot clock was introduced, Mikan's play fell off to mediocrity, leading to his retirement.

The most significant rule change in Basketball history.

The main point against the NBA is that it wasn't integrated, leaving out many potential competitors. (Similar argument against the NBA in the 1970s, with the ABA having a lot of the competitors weakening the NBA's depth and making players look better than they would be in a fully integrated league.)

[Kblaze8855]

A lot of that argument is just hard to really go into rankings and assumptions. What people couldnt do in his place...claims of what has never been done. Random top ___ of all time things.

Im not sure why Dirk is a better elimination game player than any 3 of these guys:

Jordan, West, Lebron, Russell, Kareem, Hakeem, Baylor


Which isnt even going into the likes of Petitt who had 50 point finals winning games, Hondo who has closed out many teams with big games and plays, or even guys like Wilt.

Wilt isnt even considered a special elimination game player and he gave the celtics 29/36/13/7 on like 70% shooting in an elimination game. 40 to knock out the Hawks. 46 in defeat vs the Celtics another year. He had huge games his entire career aside from when he was asked to tone down his scoring. And even then he could have games nobody else was capable of.

So I dont even know how to rate him.

Maybe you could call Dirk a top 5 elimination game player relative to his usual play....maybe say he steps up more than most.

But all that does is penalize guys who routinely play at a higher level with less room above to step up to.

Wilt put up 36 a game in elimination games before he became a decoy...and still over 31 a game for his career.

Hes a worse elimination game player because his elimination games were merely on the same level as the rest of his all time elite play?

Its the kind of thing that made me say:


They can tell you why ___ is great. But not why it makes ___ better than


You could write 8 paragraph on why everyone top 50 is great.

It just doesnt explain why they are greater than the next 8 paragraph guy.


There is no case to be made that Dirk or KG had a better career than John Havlicek.

There is a case to be made they are better players.

But you go into it that way.....Dirk is going in ahead of a LOT of people considered better than him during his career and even more who would be in the same league.

Dirk is gonna win clearly. Mavs fans doing spite voting is all it takes for that. Some were trying to get him over oscar Robertson and Jerry West(.....).

But he has not had the type of career to stand the test of time.

And im not sure KG has either.

Long term im thinking both are more Dave Cowens level than the type of guys they are being put over now.

But dont take that personal. Its how fans are.

Hondo was voted by Boston Globe readers the best Celtics of all time in the 70s.

Prisoner of the moment thing.

Give it....20 years? I dont think Dirk gets in ahead of David Robinson.

[Kblaze8855]

Based on playing in a time where the majority of other professional players had other jobs as well and basketball was just an activity done on the side.

Based on playing in an era that wasn't fully integrated yet, and 80+% whites...

Based on playing in the weakest era in basketball history.

But most importantly: Mikan didn't survive the SHOT CLOCK ERA. Once the shot clock was introduced, Mikan's play fell off to mediocrity, leading to his retirement.

The most significant rule change in Basketball history.

The main point against the NBA is that it wasn't integrated, leaving out many potential competitors. (Similar argument against the NBA in the 1970s, with the ABA having a lot of the competitors weakening the NBA's depth and making players look better than they would be in a fully integrated league.)


So explain how 30-40 makes sense.

How do you arbitrarily stop the disrespect of his era there?

Hes a 5 time champ and the best player in the league for years.

If it doesnt matter in comparison with #24 how does it matter at #31?

What logic is at place there?

How do you not either give him a high ranking or totally remove him?

What...you count some portion of his accomplishments and not the rest so he falls 20 something spots but stays ahead of 600 people better than him?

[ArbitraryWater]

Well what do you want to do? Place him top 10, then? Because if you solely rank him against his peers, he should be top 5.

Probably 3rd after MJ/Kareem, do that, then... Ignore logic and do that.

I generally like to follow a rule of thumb that views players dominance against their OWN era; but in the case of the 1950's you cannot overlook the obvious lack of skill. Mikan would get beat against stars from the 60's, by natural skill and ability.

Its hard to rate Mikan but at the same point in time he can't be taken the same as other players in way tougher more developed eras...


The 30-40 is just what seems to be most accurate... Now, you can either accept that, or you might as well ask and ask and ask "Why there? Why not here?" To wherever he is placed... Unless like you seem to want to do, put him #3. Do it. Anything else wouldn't make any sense, right?

His accomplishments and dominance on both sides would warrant the 3rd spot after MJ/Kareem, if you like you say you do, only look at what he did in HIS era... Do you have him 3rd?

[Kblaze8855]

I dont have him anywhere because once you refuse to put him as high as his accomplishments demand you are just pulling a spot out your ass later.

Hes top 10-15 or hes off the list to me. Its too late to rank him even halfway fairly and be able to explain it with reason.

Just put him on a pioneers list maybe.

[ArbitraryWater]

Top 10-15? But why is he behind Kobe, Hakeem, West, Oscar, then?

You can't just pull out a random number out of your ass....

The guy is a 5 time champ, multiple MVP, dominant on both sides, would have won DPOY's if available, led the league in scoring, rebounding, and PER...

Please, no random numbers here.. Obviously Bird's, Magic's, Duncan's, Kobe's and Hakeem's resume don't match up against Mikan.

Why not 3rd?

[Kblaze8855]

I didnt mean 10th to 15th.

I mean top 10...or maybe 15. As in you could make a case for the guys in that range having had a better career especially considering its length.

Once you get out of the range of the multiple title winning MVPS/multiple MVP winning champions arguments fall apart fast.


Once you are out of the "These guys have a case to be the best individual ever" range and its backed up with a smattering of MVPs and titles....

Everyone else ahead of Mikan is hard to justify with anything but "Yea but....it was 1952".

You can explain how a guy who won 3-5 rings like Magic or Bird while also being 3 time MVPs is on the same level as Mikan.

Circumstances can cost you a ring here or there. You might stumble somewhere.

But its the same basic level of career achievement.

A guy like Wilt may have been the best player in the league for 10 years straight. Got him 4 MVPs, 6 finals, and 2 rings.

He was similar in the 60s to what Mikan was before...with a different set of circumstances altering the final tallies.

Shaq only won one MVP but was considered the best player in the game for some time...4 rings. Most dominant of his time. Similar career to Mikan.

But once you get out of the guys you can make a "He miiiiiiight...be as good as anyone ever was" area...

Its hard to argue against Mikan.

And there are more than 3 "He might be as good as anyone...." players.

Not everyone is gonna win 5 rings or have the same MVPs because too many greats overlap.

But there is a level of the highest success/dominance.

It may be 9 deep...some will stretch that into 10-12.

Personal thing.

What is hard to argue is that Mikan is not in that group.

Him not being third is easy to explain without disregarding anything he did.

There are 5 other all time elites with 5 rings too.

But hes either on that short list...or off entirely.

At least far as what I think one could explain without just choosing to honor an arbitrary amount of his success.

[ArbitraryWater]

You act like it's only an argument against him because it was the 1950's...

Mikan just fell apart when the league introduced the shot clock and especially when players equal his size, strength started to play in the NBA.

His reliance on set shorts and playing against short white guys (He literally did) can't be ignored. Wouldn't work in the vertical nature of the post-Russell NBA.

His dominance was gone, and he retired at age of 31... Which is not old. He couldn't hang with Russell/Wilt/Pettit.

It's also notable that offensive goaltending was introduced in 1958 and the lane was 6 feet until 1952, so it was easier for him to camp in the paint.

I mean, we have obvious proof of his game not translating to other eras, and in fact, already falling apart in the 1960's. Appreciate him for what he did.

No, he's not " on that short list or off entirely"... Who says he should be?

Just because he would get dominated by Shaq, Wilt, Russell, who'd probably send a lot of his shots in the 1st row, doesn't mean I should include him from the all time list ENTIRELY?!?!

Pre-shot clock era guys ARE the hardest to rank, he should be right there in the 30's-40's mix IMO.... IMO. And to what I've seen, he's usually ranked there.

Like you said, you don't believe he's a better player than Dirk, Barkley, Malone, etc. so it makes zero sense to rank him above them ESPECIALLY considering he played way less than those guys.

[VIntageNOvel]

d fkng wade

[Kblaze8855]

I dont believe hes a better player than Brad Miller. Which is why if you use that aginst him as a means of disregarding his accomplishments there is no logical place to stop.

And he retired at like 28 then came back briefly a few years later. It was the 50s. People did not hold up that long because injuries were not as well treated as today. He used to play with broken wrists, ribs, and so on. I think he once broke his eye socket and kept playing. It was a very different time. You dont play that way for 20 years.

I dont know where to put him.

You just cant act like 5 rings and many would be MVPs dont matter...and then suddenly they kinda matter at some arbitrary point because hes not actually better than ___.

He isnt better than anyone we would discuss.

[ArbitraryWater]

I dont believe hes a better player than Brad Miller. Which is why if you use that aginst him as a means of disregarding his accomplishments there is no logical place to stop.

And he retired at like 28 then came back briefly a few years later. It was the 50s. People did not hold up that long because injuries were not as well treated as today. He used to play with broken wrists, ribs, and so on. I think he once broke his eye socket and kept playing. It was a very different time. You dont play that way for 20 years.

I dont know where to put him.

You just cant act like 5 rings and many would be MVPs dont matter...and then suddenly they kinda matter at some arbitrary point because hes not actually better than ___.

He isnt better than anyone we would discuss.


Then you're better off creating some pioneer list instead of putting him top 10..

That's honestly not a bad idea. Rank everyone from the shot clock era and everyone else in that small span of 4 years before that gets a small little pioneer list... Explaining their situation, but appreciating them for what they were and ultimately meant to basketball..

[Y2ktors]

Hondo

[DMAVS41]

Dirk

[DMAVS41]

A lot of that argument is just hard to really go into rankings and assumptions. What people couldnt do in his place...claims of what has never been done. Random top ___ of all time things.

Im not sure why Dirk is a better elimination game player than any 3 of these guys:

Jordan, West, Lebron, Russell, Kareem, Hakeem, Baylor


Which isnt even going into the likes of Petitt who had 50 point finals winning games, Hondo who has closed out many teams with big games and plays, or even guys like Wilt.

Wilt isnt even considered a special elimination game player and he gave the celtics 29/36/13/7 on like 70% shooting in an elimination game. 40 to knock out the Hawks. 46 in defeat vs the Celtics another year. He had huge games his entire career aside from when he was asked to tone down his scoring. And even then he could have games nobody else was capable of.

So I dont even know how to rate him.

Maybe you could call Dirk a top 5 elimination game player relative to his usual play....maybe say he steps up more than most.

But all that does is penalize guys who routinely play at a higher level with less room above to step up to.

Wilt put up 36 a game in elimination games before he became a decoy...and still over 31 a game for his career.

Hes a worse elimination game player because his elimination games were merely on the same level as the rest of his all time elite play?

Its the kind of thing that made me say:




You could write 8 paragraph on why everyone top 50 is great.

It just doesnt explain why they are greater than the next 8 paragraph guy.


There is no case to be made that Dirk or KG had a better career than John Havlicek.

There is a case to be made they are better players.

But you go into it that way.....Dirk is going in ahead of a LOT of people considered better than him during his career and even more who would be in the same league.

Dirk is gonna win clearly. Mavs fans doing spite voting is all it takes for that. Some were trying to get him over oscar Robertson and Jerry West(.....).

But he has not had the type of career to stand the test of time.

And im not sure KG has either.

Long term im thinking both are more Dave Cowens level than the type of guys they are being put over now.

But dont take that personal. Its how fans are.

Hondo was voted by Boston Globe readers the best Celtics of all time in the 70s.

Prisoner of the moment thing.

Give it....20 years? I dont think Dirk gets in ahead of David Robinson.



Meh...after the top 5 or so...it gets really hard to rank. It's just fun to go back and forth. It's hard to rank guys we've never seen...and if we do just off paper resumes...it's not nearly as fun or accurate actually in my opinion.

Also, Dirk and KG were both better players than Dave Cowens in my opinion... I saw enough of Cowens to speak to this.

However, not like Cowens was some guy that you couldn't make an argument for top 30 or even top 25.

I can't speak a lot to Hondo or Pettit or Mikan or West...guys I just didn't see fully play in their primes. So it's hard.

But I do think you under-rate the likes of KG and Dirk quite a bit historically if you think "Zeke" has a legit top 10 argument like you've said before, but are lamenting Dirk and KG squeaking into the top 20. I draft KG and Dirk over "Zeke" and don't blink...obviously you wouldn't, but I don't think a sound argument could be made that one would be crazy to do so.

The truth is a guy like Kobe could be ranked like 9th or 20th based on a lot of what you are saying (and I agree with a lot of it...don't get me wrong)...probably doesn't make much sense to rank Kobe in the top 10 and Hondo more than 10 places behind him. Same with Pettit so many spots behind Duncan...

[Kblaze8855]

Dirk


Yesterday:


KG or Dirk or Hondo seems good here.

I'll go with Hondo.

Shortly later:


I always forget about Pettit for some reason. He just escapes my mind for these lists.

I'm changing my vote to Pettit.

Something happen in the last 23 hours or is this a "KG got in...I must vote for Dirk" thing?

Believe it or not I have no intention of arguing. Im just curious to see if you are more susceptible to such things than I thought.

If so im kinda glad I didnt make a post I nearly did yesterday on how a Dirk fan and a KG fan are both fair enough not to fall into "Hes going against his rival..I must give him my vote!" thinking. You were to be one of my "Thats how its done" examples.

Feel free to give me your snarkiest remarks in response. You have my word I wont even respond.

Im just curious.

[DMAVS41]

Yesterday:



Shortly later:



Something happen in the last 23 hours or is this a "KG got in...I must vote for Dirk" thing?

Believe it or not I have no intention of arguing. Im just curious to see if you are more susceptible to such things than I thought.

If so im kinda glad I didnt make a post I nearly did yesterday on how a Dirk fan and a KG fan are both fair enough not to fall into "Hes going against his rival..I must give him my vote!" thinking. You were to be one of my "Thats how its done" examples.

Feel free to give me your snarkiest remarks in response. You have my word I wont even respond.

Im just curious.

Oh...yea.

KG shouldn't be more than 1 spot over Dirk in my opinion. They should be ranked together.

If I have the power to help make a list...not gonna stand by and watch KG get ranked 5 spots higher than Dirk. Because I watched both their entire careers...I'd rather focus on stuff I actually know enough to comment on.

Hondo, Pettit, and Mikan? Like I've said repeatedly...you make great and valid points...I just don't know enough to say one way or the other. So I'll go with Dirk if the list has KG already in.

I don't view that as a negative at all. Dirk, Barkley, Malone, and KG should all be ranked in pretty close vicinity to each other in these things. For people that saw them all play...that would make that part of the list very accurate. Where guys like Hondo, Mikan, Pettit...etc. are ranked is much tougher for people that didn't see them play at all. Like I said, on paper, Pettit could easily be ranked over Kobe.

And I voted for Pettit after voting for Hondo...I tried to stop KG and Dirk going in, but I lost...and now I think the list should be made as accurate as possible once certain decisions are made.

I'm more curious in talking to you about why you think "zeke" could be top 10, but lament KG and Dirk being top 20. Seems odd.

[Kblaze8855]

As I said im not gonna go into all that. I really was just curious why your vote changed. Well curious isnt the word.....I knew why it changed. I was just wondering if you would be honest about it.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Pettit and Hondo, shit even Karl Malone... underrated af here.

[DMAVS41]

As I said im not gonna go into all that. I really was just curious why your vote changed. Well curious isnt the word.....I knew why it changed. I was just wondering if you would be honest about it.

Yea, well, I'd like to think I'm honest about my views here.

Still would love to hear your reasoning why Zeke should be borderline top 10 and KG (we can ignore Dirk) is a stretch for top 20.

[G.O.A.T]

But most importantly: Mikan didn't survive the SHOT CLOCK ERA. Once the shot clock was introduced, Mikan's play fell off to mediocrity, leading to his retirement.



Overall I agree that we have to look at Mikan's era differently, just like the different eras in baseball an football pre-1960's, but I wanted to clear something up about the above.

Mikan retired before they introduced the shot clock and attempted an ill-conceived comeback 18 months later. He was already breaking down physically at the end of his career (Mikan's era was the most brutal in terms of physical play and fights) which is why he hung it up in the first place. It pained him to see the Lakers struggle and he thought he could change something right away. He wasn't in shape, he didn't train, he just showed up and thought he could still dominate a bunch of guys in their 20's. He was wrong.

In terms of ranking, I agree with KBlaze and maybe even take it a little further. He belongs in the highest group (for me among the 12 guys who were regular MVP candidates and won two titles as best player) or he belongs outside the list on some sort of pioneer honorable mention. (I don't like when people exclude pre-shot clock players, but I understand why. As you said, it's the biggest rule change in the sports history)