2014 Edition of ISH's All-Time List: #17

[DaSeba5]

http://lakerholicz.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/elgin-baylor.jpg

The winner of thread #16 was Elgin Baylor.

Current ISH All-Time List:
1. Michael Jordan- SG. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=348939)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - C. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=348961)
3. Bill Russel- C. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349040)
4. Wilt Chamberlain- C. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349136)
5. Tim Duncan- PF/C. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349216)
6. Larry Bird- SF/PF. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349328)
7. Magic Johnson- PG. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349510)
8. Shaquille O'Neal- C. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349818)
9. Kobe Bryant- SG. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349979)
10. LeBron James- SF. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349984)
11. Hakeem Olajuwon- C. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=350048)
12. Oscar Robertson- PG/SG. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=350128)
13. Moses Malone- PF/C. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=350215)
14. Jerry West- G. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=350309)
15. Julius Erving- F/G. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=350399)
16. Elgin Baylor- SF/PF. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=350523)


VOTE COUNT:
Dirk-16
KG-22
Havlicek-6
Stockton-2
Barry-1
Thomas-2
Pettit-3
Wade-2
Malone-1
Pippen-1
Mikan-1

[OncePerMonth]

Dirk

[SexSymbol]

****ing baylor ahead of Dirk, Hondo, Barry
Holy ****.
I vote Dirk

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Kevin Garnett

[aj1987]

Hondo.

[DaSeba5]

Judging by the last thread, this one is going to be a battle between Dirk and KG.

[Dragic4Life]

John Stockton.

Do I detect a hint of racism?

[DaSeba5]

John Stockton.

Do I detect a hint of racism?

3 white guys have been mentioned in this thread so far.

[Dragic4Life]

3 white guys have been mentioned in this thread so far.
Dirk and Stockton...

You mean Hondo? Didn't know he wasn't black.

[SexSymbol]

Dirk and Stockton...

You mean Hondo? Didn't know he wasn't black.
http://www.novobasqueteceara.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/1263f-john_havlicek_1973_01_01-292x242.jpg

Very white.

[Dragic4Life]

http://www.novobasqueteceara.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/1263f-john_havlicek_1973_01_01-292x242.jpg

Very white.
Ok, so you know how to use google...

So?

[Harison]

KG

[JohnFreeman]

KG

[jalbert009]

KG

[That_Admiral]

Hondo

[SexSymbol]

Ok, so you know how to use google...

So?
Still requires more IQ than to write any of your posts

[jcsrplumply]

Rick Barry

[creepingdeath]

Dirk

[wally_world]

Isiah for me

[K Xerxes]

Garnett.

[jcf5445]

Bob Pettit is so wildly underrated around here. 2 time MVP, Champion, scored 50 in closeout game, 4 trips to the finals, ridiculous statistics. Definitely neck and neck with Dirk and Garnett, but I don't think he's gotten a single vote in any of these threads. Shame.

[ArbitraryWater]

Dirk

LMFAO at Baylor at 16... ****ing sheep here.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Bob Pettit is so wildly underrated around here. 2 time MVP, Champion, scored 50 in closeout game, 4 trips to the finals, ridiculous statistics. Definitely neck and neck with Dirk and Garnett, but I don't think he's gotten a single vote in any of these threads. Shame.
After Dirk and KG get in i'll be voting for Pettit or Barry most likely...Considering Wade, Pippen, and David Robinson as well..

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Dirk

LMFAO at Baylor at 16... ****ing sheep here.
#CavsFTW

[K Xerxes]

After Dirk and KG get in i'll be voting for Pettit or Barry most likely...Considering Wade, Pippen, and David Robinson as well..

If Dirk and KG get in here... it should honestly be Malone and Barkley next...

[RoundMoundOfReb]

If Dirk and KG get in here... it should honestly be Malone and Barkley next...


Yeah how did I forget about Barkley (considering my username) :hammerhead:

I'll definitely be considering him....As for Malone - I don't see the argument TBH.

[StephHamann]

Dirk

[MP.Trey]

http://media.giphy.com/media/qY1aQzVwy4ubu/giphy.gif

[kurple]

If KG or Stockton gets picked ahead of Isiah Thomas

[kurple]

After Dirk and KG get in i'll be voting for Pettit or Barry most likely...Considering Wade, Pippen, and David Robinson as well..
Where do you rank zeke?

[longhornfan1234]

KG.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Where do you rank zeke?
In the top 30...

Next 13 players probably (in no order and i probably forgot somebody):

Dirk/KG (whichever one doesn't get voted in this thread)
Barkley
Pippen
Barry
Havlicek
Wade
Pippen
Pettit
zeke
stockton
mikan
nash
Robinson

[longhornfan1234]

In the top 30...

Next 13 players probably (in no order and i probably forgot somebody):

Dirk/KG (whichever one doesn't get voted in this thread)
Barkley
Pippen
Barry
Havlicek
Wade
Pippen
Pettit
zeke
stockton
mikan
nash
Unseld?Walton?

No Malone?

[DMV2]

Don't let his commenting career fool you, But Barkley > KG and Dirk.

Weird that Barkley and Malone are consensus #2 and #3 for all-time PF, yet they're behind KG * Dirk on all-time list.

Doesnt make any sense.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

No Malone?
Not a big fan...He's probably top 50 but I don't see a reason to put him over any of those guys considering post-season performance.

[Warfan]

Not a big fan...He's probably top 50 but I don't see a reason to put him over any of those guys considering post-season performance.

:biggums: you're kidding right?

[MP.Trey]

Not a big fan...He's probably top 50 but I don't see a reason to put him over any of those guys considering post-season performance.
What on earth would put Stockton over his MVP teammate? Malone's top 25 at the very, very least.

[ArbitraryWater]

Don't let his commenting career fool you, But Barkley > KG and Dirk.

Weird that Barkley and Malone are consensus #2 and #3 for all-time PF, yet they're behind KG * Dirk on all-time list.

Doesnt make any sense.

Barkley and Malone aren't consensus #2 and #3 PF's...


If KG or Stockton gets picked ahead of Isiah Thomas


You have Isiah ahead of KG? :facepalm

----

Malone is scum. http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hill/080507 (Just sayin')

[kurple]

Of course i do, i have Zeke top 15

He an iverson are the most ubderrated ballers in the game

[Warfan]

Barkley and Malone aren't consensus #2 and #3 PF's...




You have Isiah ahead of KG? :facepalm

----

Malone is scum. http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hill/080507

What does him being a fukkhead have to do with his ranking? I never knew so many people just put KG and Dirk over Chuck and Mailman when it's typically been the other way around for years. Not saying you cant argue it, but it's just strange too me...

[robert_shaww]

Dirk Nowitzki

[christian1923]

Wade

[RoundMoundOfReb]

What on earth would put Stockton over his MVP teammate? Malone's top 25 at the very, very least.

I could see a case for him at around 30 (where i have stockton) but before that - nope...He really has longevity going for him though...

Which of the players I listed would you rank Malone over?

[DaSeba5]

This list is similar to the one done in 2012 until around this point.

16. Kevin Garnett
17. Karl Malone
18. Charles Barkley
19. Elgin Baylor
20. Bob Pettit
21. John Havlicek
22. Dirk Nowitzki

It's interesting that people now have Dirk in their top 15 and have argued for him since #11.

[Warfan]

I could see a case for him at around 30 (where i have stockton) but before that - nope...He really has longevity going for him...

Which of the players I listed would you rank Malone over?

:facepalm Im sorry bro, but if you dont have Malone has atleast a borderline top 20 player i dont know what to say.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

This list is similar to the one done in 2012 until around this point.

16. Kevin Garnett
17. Karl Malone
18. Charles Barkley
19. Elgin Baylor
20. Bob Pettit
21. John Havlicek
22. Dirk Nowitzki

It's interesting that people now have Dirk in their top 15 and have argued for him since #11.
The nostalgia hadn't fully kicked in yet...Hardcore fans always underrate current players and overrate past ones where as casuals do the opposite..

[RoundMoundOfReb]

:facepalm Im sorry bro, but if you dont have Malone has atleast a borderline top 20 player i dont know what to say.
Which of the players that I listed would you say Malone is better than?

[Warfan]

Which of the players that I listed would you say Malone is better than?


Dirk/KG (whichever one doesn't get voted in this thread)
Barkley
Pippen
Barry
Havlicek
Wade
zeke
stockton
nash
Unseld?Walton?
Mikan
Pettit



I'll leave Mikan and Pettit out since i dont feel knowledgable enough about them. Then you can argue between dirk/kg/barkley/malone (which he's arguably the best), and you didnt mention Drob either who is probably in that tier too.

You're REALLY underrating him

[MP.Trey]

I could see a case for him at around 30 (where i have stockton) but before that - nope...He really has longevity going for him though...

Which of the players I listed would you rank Malone over?

Dirk/KG (whichever one doesn't get voted in this thread)
Barkley
Pippen
Barry
Havlicek
Wade maybe...
Pippen
Pettit
zeke maybe...
stockton
mikan
nash
Unseld?Walton?


Would take Malone over all of the bolded. Very easily on the last few. 2x MVP, 11 time first team All-NBA, 3 time All-D, Peak averages of 31/11/3 with peak playoff averages of 31/16/1, or 30/13/3 among other comparable lines. Best pick and roll big man in the history of the game and insanely talented with his back to the basket (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2edAvSLD5U8)

Some of those players don't hold a candle to Malone in his prime, or much less boast the accolades/achivements and longevity to hang with Malone on an all-time list.

[ArbitraryWater]

Dirk/KG (whichever one doesn't get voted in this thread)
Barkley
Pippen
Barry
Havlicek
Wade maybe...
Pippen
Pettit
zeke maybe...
stockton
mikan
nash
Unseld?Walton?


Would take Malone over all of the bolded. Very easily on the last few. 2x MVP, 11 time first team All-NBA, 3 time All-D, Peak averages of 31/11/3 with peak playoff averages of 31/16/1, or 30/13/3 among other comparable lines. Best pick and roll big man in the history of the game and insanely talented with his back to the basket (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2edAvSLD5U8)

Some of those players don't hold a candle to Malone in his prime, or much less boast the accolades/achivements and longevity to hang with Malone on an all-time list.

You have Wade and Isiah above Dirk? It's time to re-evaluate your shit, bro.

[DMV2]

What does him being a fukkhead have to do with his ranking? I never knew so many people just put KG and Dirk over Chuck and Mailman when it's typically been the other way around for years. Not saying you cant argue it, but it's just strange too me...
Yeah, it's been Duncan, Barkley/Malone for the longest time. Even in 2011 after Dirk won a ring, Barkley and Malone were still in debate for #2.

[DMV2]

You have Wade and Isiah above Dirk? It's time to re-evaluate your shit, bro.
If Dirk is Top #11-#16 as most seem to think in these polls, then Wade is not far behind at #15-#20.

That's where I see the overrating of Dirk in these polls.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I'll leave Mikan and Pettit out since i dont feel knowledgable enough about them. Then you can argue between dirk/kg/barkley/malone, and you didnt mention Drob either who is probably in that tier too.
What exactly did Malone accomplish that any of those players didn't?

Pippen - Big part of 6 title teams, great playoff player, GOAT perimeter defender
Barry - Led team to title. Stepped it up in the playoffs (albeit a massive chucker)
Havlicek - Big part of 8 rings, great defender, upped game in the playoffs - would probably have a couple of fmvps..
Wade - really? Had one of the all-time greatest playoff performances in 2006, big part of 2 other rings - great playoff performer in his prime
zeke - led to teams to rings had absurd stats - great playoff performer
stockton - debatable with Malone...i pick him for similar reasons to Nash...tremendous offensive impact and a great defender...
nash - one of the offensive GOATs in my opinion...2xMVP - Great playoff performer
Unseld?Walton? - both led teams to titles - could see malone over these 2 depending on longevity vs peak - what you value more

I'm just not a fan of him game...i don't think he could create a good shot when you needed him to score unlike other players on this list....

as far as Robinson vs Malone - i don't see the case for malone AT ALL...Robinson was probably on par if not better on offense and eons better on defense..

[BoutPractice]

Dirk Nowitzki.

MVP (first European to win the award in NBA history), champion and Finals MVP, 4 time all-NBA first team, top 10 in MVP voting 9 different years, 12 time All-Star, led his team to 11 consecutive 50 win seasons including a 67 win season, averaged 25 and 10 in the playoffs. Accumulated over 26500 points, 9500 rebounds, 3000 assists, and 1400 three pointers in his career.

A clutch go-to guy who is virtually synonymous with the Mavs franchise, Dirk is known for his idiosyncratic, revolutionary playing style, his ability to carry any roster you assemble around him to the playoffs, and his leading role in one of the most memorable playoff runs the league has seen since the days of Hakeem.

Career-wise he is comparable (and will be compared for quite some time) to KG, who is the defensive counterpart to Dirk's offensive brilliance. I have Dirk slightly ahead of him right now, and I believe that Garnett is only going to lose ground this debate as Dirk may still have 2 good years in him (+1/2 not so good years) while KG is pretty much done, resulting in Dirk moving up the all-time scoring chart in particular.

[MP.Trey]

You have Wade and Isiah above Dirk? It's time to re-evaluate your shit, bro.
I've been evaluating for like 10 years on this shit, bro. :oldlol:

Wade, probably not at this point of his career. Especially now that he looks on the decline, that's why I wrote maybe. And Isiah is one the most underrated players in NBA history. If only he would have played longer, he'd be a lock over Dirk.

Like I've discussed since people started voted for Dirk at 12, average defense and average rebounding for a big man doesn't get you any votes over players with similar careers who aren't average at those things, and aren't significantly worse on offense. I have a lot of respect for Dirk and especially how he steps up in crunch time and in playoff time (minus 2007), and have him top 20, but can't put up with him being higher than that right now.

If I were to go 11-20, I would say:
11. Bron
12. Oscar
13. West
14. Erving
15. Baylor
16. Moses
17. Garnett
18. Malone
19. Dirk
20. Barkley/Pettit/Isiah

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Ill respond to the rest of the post soon. Just curious as to where you rank Barkley. Surely he's somewhere around 30, right?

Barkley accomplished more than Malone....he actually played well in the playoffs for one....but yeah i'd imagine he's somewhere in the 20s

[pauk]

Kevin Garnett.

[DMV2]

Wade isn't top 20... Never even has been.

Especially now that he's broken down way too soon... From what I've read, Wade seems to be top 30 on most lists here. And he is.
Yes Wade is Top 25-30, which means Dirk shouldn't be Top 11-16 because they're really not that far of a gap between them.

Dirk Top 20-25, Wade 25-30.

[MP.Trey]

Barkley accomplished more than Malone....he actually played well in the playoffs for one....but yeah i'd imagine he's somewhere in the 20s
Charles Barkley - 1x MVP, 11x all-star, 1x ASG MVP, 5x 1st teamer, 5x 2nd teamer, 1x 3rd teamer, 1 finals apperance averaging 27/14/4. Career playoff stats of 23/13/4.

Karl Malone - 2x MVP, 14x all star, 2x ASG MVP, 11x 1st teamer, 1x 2nd teamer, 1x third teamer, 3x All-D 1st team, 1x All-D 2nd team, 2 finals appearances averaging 26/11/3. Career playoff stats of 25/11/3.

I fail to see where you come up with your conclusion that Barkley accomplished more?

[HomieWeMajor]

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/464/kgmf.gif
Kevin muthaphuckin Garnett
The only thing Dirk than do better is score. There is more than one side to basketball.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Charles Barkley - 1x MVP, 11x all-star, 1x ASG MVP, 5x 1st teamer, 5x 2nd teamer, 1x 3rd teamer, 1 finals apperance averaging 27/14/4. Career playoff stats of 23/13/4.

Karl Malone - 2x MVP, 14x all star, 2x ASG MVP, 11x 1st teamer, 1x 2nd teamer, 1x third teamer, 3x All-D 1st team, 1x All-D 2nd team, 2 finals appearances averaging 26/11/3. Career playoff stats of 25/11/3.

I fail to see where you come up with your conclusion that Barkley accomplished more?

1) By "accomplished more" I don't mean he had more accolades...I mean he played at a higher or similar level..
2)Those playoff-stats are given without context/efficiency

[kshutts1]

KG.

And people should know my stance by now, but I really can't believe Dirk is being considered similar to KG. Whatever. To each their own.

[Le Shaqtus]

How my nikka Dirk ain't make it yet

DIRK :mad:

[DaSeba5]

I'm going to say KG as well.

[kshutts1]

I've been evaluating for like 10 years on this shit, bro. :oldlol:

Wade, probably not at this point of his career. Especially now that he looks on the decline, that's why I wrote maybe. And Isiah is one the most underrated players in NBA history. If only he would have played longer, he'd be a lock over Dirk.

Like I've discussed since people started voted for Dirk at 12, average defense and average rebounding for a big man doesn't get you any votes over players with similar careers who aren't average at those things, and aren't significantly worse on offense. I have a lot of respect for Dirk and especially how he steps up in crunch time and in playoff time (minus 2007), and have him top 20, but can't put up with him being higher than that right now.

If I were to go 11-20, I would say:
11. Bron
12. Oscar
13. West
14. Erving
15. Baylor
16. Moses
17. Garnett
18. Malone
19. Dirk
20. Barkley/Pettit/Isiah
Lack of consistency.

[MP.Trey]

1) By "accomplished more" I don't mean he had more accolades...I mean he played at a higher or similar level..
2)Those playoff-stats are given without context/efficiency
Poor choice of words then, in order to accomplish more... you need to have more accomplishments. I will admit he played at a similar, and sometimes higher level, which is why I have them within two spots of each other. But Malone accomplished more and was the better player most of their careers imo and neither should fall below 20, 25 at the lowest.

[MP.Trey]

Lack of consistency.
They're one spot away from each other. :oldlol:

And while Barkley is clearly a million times better on the glass, and not "signifcantly worse" on offense, he is definitely worse on offense and not any better on defense. As well as Dirk's longevity helps him over Barkley. What I just mentiones aren't the only criteria I use to rank players by.

[DMV2]

Poor choice of words then, in order to accomplish more... you need to have more accomplishments. I will admit he played at a similar, and sometimes higher level, which is why I have them within two spots of each other. But Malone accomplished more and was the better player most of their careers imo and neither should fall below 20, 25 at the lowest.
Barkley and Malone shouldn't really fall that much from their consensus #16-#20 spots because LeBron's the only player who's really leaped ahead of them since they retire.

Dirk and Garnett are at their footsteps, and even if those two are higher, Barkley and Malone aren't much higher below. Ex: It'd be like #17 Dirk, #18, KG, #19 Barkley, #20 Malone, or in whatever order your criteria is. To me it'd be #17 Barkley, #18 Malone, #19 KG, #20 Dirk.

[DaSeba5]

Yes Wade is Top 25-30, which means Dirk shouldn't be Top 11-16 because they're really not that far of a gap between them.

Dirk Top 20-25, Wade 25-30.

This is how I feel. If Dirk wins now, Wade is probably going to be like almost 10 spots below him. And there really isn't that far of a gap between them.

[kshutts1]

They're one spot away from each other. :oldlol:

And while Barkley is clearly a million times better on the glass, and not "signifcantly worse" on offense, he is definitely worse on offense and not any better on defense. As well as Dirk's longevity helps him over Barkley. What I just mentiones aren't the only criteria I use to rank players by.
I should hope not, lol.

But in my eyes, Barkley is "definitely worse" at scoring, but not at offense. Better ball handler and passer than Dirk.

Defense is a wash.
Offense is a near wash, slight edge to Dirk
Huge edge to Barkley in rebounding

Then add in longevity, etc... I agree Barkley is better, I just think it's a wider gap than you. But again... not everyone will agree.

[MP.Trey]

The discussion has ramped up recently and I can agree with a lot of the points being made recently. Malone/KG/Dirk/Barkley/Pettit is an incredibly hard 5 to rank and no two people are going to have the exact same conclusion.

[Warfan]

Barkley accomplished more than Malone....he actually played well in the playoffs for one....but yeah i'd imagine he's somewhere in the 20s

He's a 2 time MVP and reached the finals twice compared to Barkley who only made it once. Barkley made 5 all nba-1st teams, Malone made 11 straight all-nba 1st teams. He was a much better defender and made 3 straight all-nba 1st defensive teams. But yeah Barkley is more accomplished...I wont dive too much into this comparison now since i see a case for Barkley being better than Malone. Just clearing up the notion that Barkley was more accomplished...

As for Malone's playoff 'failures', they're overstated IMO.

From 88-01 (age 24-37); Malone averaged an incredible 27/11/3.

With years of 30/12, 31/16, 30/13/3, 30/13/4, 29/11/3 between 88'-95'. Between ages 32-37 26/11/4 :eek:

Greatest P&R big ever and very talented with his back to the basket and an underrated defender.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2edAvSLD5U8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_ezVqa2Z8o

I can go more in-depth, but i dont have the time right now. He had a great prime and peak, and arguably the GOAT longevity. There's now doubt he atleast deserves top 20 consideration.

[DMV2]

This is how I feel. If Dirk wins now, Wade is probably going to be like almost 10 spots below him. And there really isn't that far of a gap between them.
When you think of perimeter guards who can score and defend, Wade is one of the best ever. Easily one of the best 2-way players at his position.

Dirk is an all-time offensive beast but his defense doesn't match up to the other all-time PF's. And let's be real, it took a bigger choke artist(at the time of the 2011 series) to take Dirk's choke artist label off his resume. That serious completely changed everything esp with Wade having 1 less ring, 1 less F-MVP.

[DMV2]

The discussion has ramped up recently and I can agree with a lot of the points being made recently. Malone/KG/Dirk/Barkley/Pettit is an incredibly hard 5 to rank and no two people are going to have the exact same conclusion.
I really hope Wade gets in that discussion too because he's really not that far behind them.

[DMAVS41]

KG or Dirk or Hondo seems good here.

I'll go with Hondo.

[Y2ktors]

Hondo

[Fudge]

Kevin Garnett

[Sakkreth]

WTF with KG votes, fck you.

I vote Dirk.

[Shade8780]

KG or Dirk shouldn't be ranked over Hondo :facepalm

http://www.novobasqueteceara.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/1263f-john_havlicek_1973_01_01.jpg

[MrC1991]

KG

[ArbitraryWater]

Yes Wade is Top 25-30, which means Dirk shouldn't be Top 11-16 because they're really not that far of a gap between them.

Dirk Top 20-25, Wade 25-30.

Since when is Dirk 20-25?

Dirk is a MUST 20.. That logic is weird AF.

Dirk is EASILY >>> Wade on an all-time scale. Not even debatable.

Wade's durability is a joke and outside of 2005/2006 and 2011, he didn't do much shit in the playoffs. Sure, for a round in 2010.

Dirk is a better playoff performer, too.

When has Wade ever improved his game? Seriously. He hasn't added anything to his game in 5 years. The true greats add shit to their game later in their career to compensate for their lost athleticism.

He's been riding Lebron's coattails BIG TIME over the last 3 years. And you're acting like Dirk doesn't average 26 & 10 in the playoffs. Wade hasn't been a great player since 2011.
How long did Wade's prime last? Like 4 or 5 years? FOH
You think a 4-5 year prime of 1st-rd knock-outs is similar with a 14 year prime of contending teams? We fundamentally disagree.

People still don't seem to grasp Dirk's Impact.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a07iyf9x_2A&list=UUBAj3eLjVfG8dwZufaWBT8A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a07iyf9x_2A&list=UUBAj3eLjVfG8dwZufaWBT8A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmbqiMt74lk&index=43&list=UUBAj3eLjVfG8dwZufaWBT8A

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/steve-nash-george-karl-and-others-on-dirk-nowitzki-and-the-unguardable-play/

Dirk's statistics aren't mind boggling. Shits been done before. (Not in the playoffs, though... One of 4 to ever average 26/12) Now watching the games, and looking at his results with relatively mediocre rosters over DECADES, can only lead to the logical assumption of him doing far more beyond the box score. His ability to raise his game in big moments is a difference maker.

[IncarceratedBob]

KG

[Milbuck]

Dirk

[sportjames23]

John Stockton.

Do I detect a hint of racism?


http://i.minus.com/ibz4WOpNsZolcz.gif

[DMAVS41]

Since when is Dirk 20-25?

Dirk is a MUST 20.. That logic is weird AF.

Dirk is EASILY >>> Wade on an all-time scale. Not even debatable.

Wade's durability is a joke and outside of 2005/2006 and 2011, he didn't do much shit in the playoffs. Sure, for a round in 2010.

Dirk is a better playoff performer, too.

When has Wade ever improved his game? Seriously. He hasn't added anything to his game in 5 years. The true greats add shit to their game later in their career to compensate for their lost athleticism.

He's been riding Lebron's coattails BIG TIME over the last 3 years. And you're acting like Dirk doesn't average 26 & 10 in the playoffs. Wade hasn't been a great player since 2011.
How long did Wade's prime last? Like 4 or 5 years? FOH
You think a 4-5 year prime of 1st-rd knock-outs is similar with a 14 year prime of contending teams? We fundamentally disagree.

People still don't seem to grasp Dirk's Impact.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a07iyf9x_2A&list=UUBAj3eLjVfG8dwZufaWBT8A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a07iyf9x_2A&list=UUBAj3eLjVfG8dwZufaWBT8A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmbqiMt74lk&index=43&list=UUBAj3eLjVfG8dwZufaWBT8A

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/steve-nash-george-karl-and-others-on-dirk-nowitzki-and-the-unguardable-play/

Dirk's statistics aren't mind boggling. Shits been done before. (Not in the playoffs, though... One of 4 to ever average 26/12) Now watching the games, and looking at his results with relatively mediocre rosters over DECADES, can only lead to the logical assumption of him doing far more beyond the box score. His ability to raise his game in big moments is a difference maker.


The bold is well said.

It's funny because a lot of Dirk haters talk about how the game isn't all about stats because they think Dirk's stats are amazing (which they are...especially in the playoffs)...call and Dirk fan a "stat whore" for posting the stats.

But the truth? Dirk is definitely on the short list of guys that impact the game far more than the box score numbers. That is what is so funny. He's a guy whose impact runs deep well beyond the box scores.

And like you said, you see that when you take a step back and really look at the kind of rosters Dirk has played with his entire career.

[DMV2]

I never said Wade > Dirk. I said, Wade isn't far from Dirk.

BTW, Wade was amazing in 2009-2011, not just from 05-07. Amazing during the Big 3 run as well. Had a terrible Finals last June though.

And as I said, the only reason why Dirk doesn't have that choke artist label anymore is because it took a bigger choke artist in LeBron(at the time of the 2011 Finals) to get that label off Dirk.

[ArbitraryWater]

I never said Wade > Dirk. I said, Wade isn't far from Dirk.

BTW, Wade was amazing in 2009-2011, not just from 05-07. Amazing during the Big 3 run as well. Had a terrible Finals last June though.

And as I said, the only reason why Dirk doesn't have that choke artist label anymore is because it took a bigger choke artist in LeBron(at the time of the 2011 Finals) to get that label off Dirk.

Bigger question is would that "choke label" be justified or not?

And no, Wade wasn't amazing in the 2009 or 2007 playoffs.

What's amazing to you guys now?

18/4/4? 16/5/5? 22/5/4? That is ****ing amazing to you? Getting outplayed in the Finals by a man named Patty?

Don't you realize how low the standarts have fallen for the guy? That's like 1999 Kobe, who barely gets acknowledged.

I joke about Kobe being a coattail-rider, but Wade rode Lebron's coattails HARD to 2 rings.

Kobe in 2000, at 22 y/o, still gave you the best he got with 22/5/4 and elite defense. Now you know, everyone, even you, calls this a sidekick ring. More than that, even... But that was the best Wade has done these last THREE post-seasons. All of the sudden with Wade you call it "amazing".

[DMAVS41]

I never said Wade > Dirk. I said, Wade isn't far from Dirk.

BTW, Wade was amazing in 2009-2011, not just from 05-07. Amazing during the Big 3 run as well. Had a terrible Finals last June though.

And as I said, the only reason why Dirk doesn't have that choke artist label anymore is because it took a bigger choke artist in LeBron(at the time of the 2011 Finals) to get that label off Dirk.

Dirk never deserved the choke label though....so I don't get this point.

He's actually probably been the most clutch player of this era.

His individual stats are awesome.
His team has had a top 3 offensive rating in crunch time for basically as long as the stats go back.
His teams had the best record in close games from at least 05 through 11.
He had the most clutch 4th qtr playoff run since early 90's Jordan.
He's one of the best elimination game players ever.
He was 5-0 with monster games in game 7's until last year.
He's great in game winning situations with the ball in his hands historically.

Nothing supports Dirk being a choker at all. The "label" you speak of never should have existed.

[MP.Trey]

Dirk never deserved the choke label though....so I don't get this point.

He's actually probably been the most clutch player of this era.

His individual stats are awesome.
His team has had a top 3 offensive rating in crunch time for basically as long as the stats go back.
His teams had the best record in close games from at least 05 through 11.
He had the most clutch 4th qtr playoff run since early 90's Jordan.
He's one of the best elimination game players ever.
He was 5-0 with monster games in game 7's until last year.
He's great in game winning situations with the ball in his hands historically.

Nothing supports Dirk being a choker at all. The "label" you speak of never should have existed.
Getting outplayed by Stephen Jackson and losing in the first round as the MVP of a 67 win team certainly doesn't help your case. I love Dirk and that's the only real rssemblance of a chokejob but that certainly helped push the label.

[DMV2]

@ AW

LOL. Don't take my Kobe bashing literally. I'm a Kobe-hater! I still got him the Top 9-11 though.

[ArbitraryWater]

Getting outplayed by Stephen Jackson and losing in the first round as the MVP of a 67 win team certainly doesn't help your case. I love Dirk and that's the only real rssemblance of a chokejob but that certainly helped push the label.

Okay you keep saying you love Dirk but since when should one 6 game series provide a choking label.. A series in which rumours appeared of Dirk having injuries, by the way.

A bit off topic, but does anyone have a quality video of game 4? Was like the only game Mavericks had a chance to get back HCA.

[DMAVS41]

Getting outplayed by Stephen Jackson and losing in the first round as the MVP of a 67 win team certainly doesn't help your case. I love Dirk and that's the only real rssemblance of a chokejob but that certainly helped push the label.

Is that choking? Or is it just playing a poor series...a type of series that literally everyone outside of like 5 guys have played worse in their NBA careers.

Not sure I'd call that choking though.

I mean...it's always the Warriors series. Which was bad, but not only was Dirk rumored to be hiding an injury, but his dad was having major surgery right in the middle of the series.

His coach abandoned our style of play from the jump and the Warriors played the worst style possible for that Mavs team...a Mavs team that wasn't even very talented to be honest. Certainly no more talented than the Warriors.

Also, since when is a 20/11/2 51% TS series the worst thing ever? I mean...it was bad, and his game 6 was terrible (although not like it would have mattered as we got blown out)...so I'm not sure it's really choking. Can you choke away a series putting up decent numbers while your team lose the 4 games by;

4
12
18
25

I mean...kind of speaks to more of a flaw with the team/coach than a single player. I'd understand it if Dirk played as bad as Rose in the 11 conference finals, kobe in the 04 finals, Lebron in the 11 finals...but he didn't play "that bad"...

[ArbitraryWater]

@ AW

LOL. Don't take my Kobe bashing literally. I'm a Kobe-hater! I still got him the Top 9-11 though.

Eh, besides the point really.

But anyway, I don't think you're really a hater. Dislike, sure.

Should go on RealGM where everyone has him Top 15 :cheers:

[MP.Trey]

Okay you keep saying you love Dirk but since when should one 6 game series provide a choking label.. A series in which rumours appeared of Dirk having injuries, by the way.

A bit off topic, but does anyone have a quality video of game 4? Was like the only game Mavericks had a chance to get back HCA.
Since the beginning of time. Since fans get carried away by that shit.

I don't agree he's a choker but I agree he's choked. And people don't forget that shit. For me 2007 and 2011 cancel each other out, one was as great as the other was bad. Then when you take into account all the other playoff and clutch moments he's had, he's definitely not a choker but DMavs was acting like there is absolutely no evidence that could be brought forth in a "Dirk = Choker" argument when in fact there is some ammunition. Just limited rounds.

[DMAVS41]

Since the beginning of time. Since fans get carried away by that shit.

I don't agree he's a choker but I agree he's choked. And people don't forget that shit. For me 2007 and 2011 cancel each other out, one was as great as the other was bad. Then when you take into account all the other playoff and clutch moments he's had, he's definitely not a choker but DMavs was acting like there is absolutely no evidence that could be brought forth in a "Dirk = Choker" argument when in fact there is some ammunition. Just limited rounds.

How can the best clutch player of the era...or at least as clutch as anyone...also be called a choker.

It makes no sense.

That is like saying MJ can't be the GOAT because he didn't win the title every year.

Your logic is terrible.

[MP.Trey]

How can the best clutch player of the era...or at least as clutch as anyone...also be called a choker.

It makes no sense.

That is like saying MJ can't be the GOAT because he didn't win the title every year.

Your logic is terrible.
For the last time, it's not my logic. It's general and casual fans logic.

You get outplayed in an elimination game as the MVP of a 67 win team by Stephen Jackson to the tune of:


Stephen Jackson: 33 pts (on 10-19 shooting,7-8 from 3), 5 rbs, 3 ast, 3 stl
Dirk Nowitzki: 8 points (on 2-13 shooting,0-6 from 3), 10 rbs, 2 ast

Then you're going to be called a choker by some. Even if all the other evidence in a player's career points to the contrary.

I think Dirk's one of the clutchest and baddest motherf*ckers in the history of the game, which is why I rank him #19 all-time. But dumbass fans are still going to call him a choker because of that. What's so hard to understand about that?

[navy]

Dirk and KG are too damn high.

[DMAVS41]

For the last time, it's not my logic. It's general and casual fans logic.

You get outplayed in an elimination game as the MVP of a 67 win team by Stephen Jackson to the tune of:



Then you're going to be called a choker by some. Even if all the other evidence in a player's career points to the contrary.

I think Dirk's one of the clutchest and baddest motherf*ckers in the history of the game, which is why I rank him #19 all-time. But dumbass fans are still going to call him a choker because of that. What's so hard to understand about that?


I'm attacking the label. Did you not read my initial post?

Every single player has had moments of missing a big free throw, playing bad in a series, in a big game...etc. On the view that a player has played poorly in a big moment...makes him incapable of being clutch...I don't find that makes sense because then nobody is clutch.

It's about the body of work.

[MP.Trey]

I'm attacking the label. Did you not read my initial post?

Every single player has had moments of missing a big free throw, playing bad in a series, in a big game...etc. On the view that a player has played poorly in a big moment...makes him incapable of being clutch...I don't find that makes sense because then nobody is clutch.

It's about the body of work.
I agree with you there but as I stated before I was only addressing the bolded of your statement where you said nothing supports Dirk being a choker. Game 6 2007 supports Dirk being a choker. Bottom line. The body of work doesn't negate that there was a weak point in there. It just clouds it.

[navy]

Also, since when is a 20/11/2 51% TS series the worst thing ever?

It has to be up there, Name a worse playoff run than the MVP losing in the first round to an eight seed putting up 20/11/2.

[r0drig0lac]

Isiah

[MP.Trey]

Anyway, I smoked a fat bowl about halfway through this argument so maybe I'm just too high to get my point across.

[DMAVS41]

I agree with you there but as I stated before I was only addressing the bolded of your statement where you said nothing supports Dirk being a choker. Game 6 2007 supports Dirk being a choker. Bottom line. The body of work doesn't negate that there was a weak point in there. It just clouds it.

nothing does.

to be a "choker"...you actually have to have a history of it. this is why i attacked your logic.

you don't call a player a "choker" unless there is a history of them choking...otherwise it really doesn't make sense.

it would be like calling Larry Bird a "loser" because he lost the title in more years than he won it. i could say the same things you are. Larry Bird losing in 1985 supports Bird being a loser. Bottom line. The body of work doesn't negate that there was a weak point in there. It just clouds it.

just doesn't make sense.

[MP.Trey]

nothing does.

to be a "choker"...you actually have to have a history of it. this is why i attacked your logic.

you don't call a player a "choker" unless there is a history of them choking...otherwise it really doesn't make sense.

it would be like calling Larry Bird a "loser" because he lost the title in more years than he won it. i could say the same things you are. Larry Bird losing in 1985 supports Bird being a loser. Bottom line. The body of work doesn't negate that there was a weak point in there. It just clouds it.

just doesn't make sense.
He did lose that year. So he was a loser. :confusedshrug:

But ultimately his body of work proves him to be a winner, by general standards. Anything wrong with that statement?

[navy]

nothing does.

to be a "choker"...you actually have to have a history of it. this is why i attacked your logic.

you don't call a player a "choker" unless there is a history of them choking...otherwise it really doesn't make sense.

it would be like calling Larry Bird a "loser" because he lost the title in more years than he won it. i could say the same things you are. Larry Bird losing in 1985 supports Bird being a loser. Bottom line. The body of work doesn't negate that there was a weak point in there. It just clouds it.

just doesn't make sense.
Larry Bird lost 7 times with Home Court Advantage, most of all time. Dont think there isnt evidence there.

It just gets swept under the rug.

[DMAVS41]

He did lose that year. So he was a loser. :confusedshrug:

But ultimately his body of work proves him to be a winner, by general standards. Anything wrong with that statement?

If you want to go that way...then you'd need to say specific years.

For example, calling Larry Bird a loser that year is fine. Calling him a loser overall is different.

You didn't call Dirk a choker for a specific year. You (and the average fans) were using the choker label on him for his career.

Totally different.

Saying Dirk "choked" in 07...is a fine statement.
Saying Dirk is a "choker" overall...is not a fine statement.

I can't explain it any better than that.

[DMAVS41]

Larry Bird lost 7 times with Home Court Advantage, most of all time. Dont think there isnt evidence there.

It just gets swept under the rug.

That is besides the point I was making.

[Heavincent]

Dirk

[Roundball_Rock]

Karl Malone.

[MP.Trey]

If you want to go that way...then you'd need to say specific years.

For example, calling Larry Bird a loser that year is fine. Calling him a loser overall is different.

You didn't call Dirk a choker for a specific year. You (and the average fans) were using the choker label on him for his career.

Totally different.

Saying Dirk "choked" in 07...is a fine statement.
Saying Dirk is a "choker" overall...is not a fine statement.

I can't explain it any better than that.
Lol how many f*cking times do I have to say that I was speaking on behalf of casual/general fans and not myself. I even went to the length of calling them "dumbass fans".

What I'm trying to say is people (idiots, not me) see Dirk choked in 07 and jump to conclusions that he's a choker even though you and I, and other basketball fans know better because that's the only instance anyone can even point to Dirk "choking" or not playing up to his clutch standard.

He choked. That doesn't make him a choker, but some people, not me will point to that to take away from Dirk's identity as clutch.

Once again, that's on behalf of other people's opinions, not mine.

[stalkerforlife]

Dirk.

Stop voting KG...he colluded because he couldn't lead a team on his own.

DIRK.

[DMAVS41]

Lol how many f*cking times do I have to say that I was speaking on behalf of casual/general fans and not myself. I even went to the length of calling them "dumbass fans".

What I'm trying to say is people (idiots, not me) see Dirk choked in 07 and jump to conclusions that he's a choker even though you and I, and other basketball fans know better because that's the only instance anyone can even point to Dirk "choking" or not playing up to his clutch standard.

He choked. That doesn't make him a choker, but some people, not me will point to that to take away from Dirk's identity as clutch.

Once again, that's on behalf of other people's opinions, not mine.

And I'm attacking the label....you just got done saying there was ammo. And I'm refuting that.

A player choking is not ammo to call a player a choker in any real way than a player not winning the title 1 year is ammo to call him a career loser.

That is my point. Even if we deem the 07 series as Dirk "choking"...which I would refute, it doesn't make a player a choker even by any standards.

You brought it up. If you don't agree with the label...why even post it?

[MP.Trey]

And I'm attacking the label....you just got done saying there was ammo. And I'm refuting that.

A player choking is not ammo to call a player a choker in any real way than a player not winning the title 1 year is ammo to call him a career loser.

That is my point. Even if we deem the 07 series as Dirk "choking"...which I would refute, it doesn't make a player a choker even by any standards.

You brought it up. If you don't agree with the label...why even post it?
I was hoping you would gain some objectivity and see there are other sides to the argument than yours. Saying "Nothing supports Dirk being a choker" sounds an awful lot like "Nothing supports Dirk has choked" and I was addressing that. Sorry for any confusion.

[DMAVS41]

I was hoping you would gain some objectivity and see there are other sides to the argument than yours. Saying "Nothing supports Dirk being a choker" sounds an awful lot like "Nothing supports Dirk has choked" and I was addressing that. Sorry for any confusion.

Yea...every player has performed poorly in a big moment before. That doesn't make them chokers.

I would never refute that any player has gone through a career without "choking" in some form or another....and certainly not Dirk.

I was addressing the "choker" label like I said from the beginning.

[MP.Trey]

**** it never mind. Cheers.

[ArbitraryWater]

KG

Btw isn't this the guy who asked or made a trade scenario on here, then a day later a team pulled off that exact same move, and he was never seen again?

[Kblaze8855]

So Bob Pettit made more all NBA first teams than Dirk and KG combined...won as many MVPS as Dirk and KG combined...went to more finals than Dirk and KG combined....won the same number of rings as each of them...and won his with a 50 point elimination game....

He was an all star every season of his career. 5 people already on the list finished behind him in MVP voting in their primes...so its not like he played in the 40s and his eras greats don't get respect in these things.

We are pretty much saying.....**** him. Right?


**** Bob Pettit?

[duskovujosevic]

Stockton.

[DaSeba5]

Judging by the last thread, this one is going to be a battle between Dirk and KG.

Just like I thought.

[DMAVS41]

So Bob Pettit made more all NBA first teams than Dirk and KG combined...won as many MVPS as Dirk and KG combined...went to more finals than Dirk and KG combined....won the same number of rings as each of them...and won his with a 50 point elimination game....

He was an all star every season of his career. 5 people already on the list finished behind him in MVP voting in their primes...so its not like he played in the 40s and his eras greats don't get respect in these things.

We are pretty much saying.....**** him. Right?


**** Bob Pettit?

Good point.

I always forget about Pettit for some reason. He just escapes my mind for these lists.

I'm changing my vote to Pettit.

He was before my time, but he deserves to be top 20 or so all time.

[sejoon101]

Dirk

[kkb_12]

Pippen

[Kblaze8855]

Good point.

I always forget about Pettit for some reason. He just escapes my mind for these lists.

I'm changing my vote to Pettit.

He was before my time, but he deserves to be top 20 or so all time.


Im not really worried about who gets the spot...I just wonder how some people get so overlooked. Its like bob and Hondo didnt even exist.

Given the same awards/all ____ teams that come out now Hondo would be an 8 time champ, 3-4 time finals MVP, and 10+ time all D team.....he puts up like 26/7/5 for 6-7 years in the playoffs....the most respected man in the sport along with Jerry West for much of 10 years.

But people just see Dirk or KG having too many votes and rush to vote for the other guy.

Its why these list always end up so off. People vote for who they think should win among the two people getting the most votes.

I understand liking Dirk....and KG. As you probably remember I knew KG back in the day. He was at my aunt Joyces house for thanksgiving watching Species in the 90s. Damn near everyone around here my age knew KG at least in passing.

Im not gonna vote for him over guys who literally double him up in all NBA first teams, MVPs, and finals trips while being considered just as good at the time as people considered all time elite.

KG or Dirk over Bob to me is pretty much just saying "Yea but...it was 1959".

What else could he do but beat the guys given him to play? And he wasnt winning on teams that didnt truly need him like Cousy(Hondo won 2 without RUssell....so I dont put him in the cousy category either)

Hes literally a jumper from being a 10 time all nba first teamer with 2 rings and 2 mvps.

Hes Karl Malone if Karl won it all and went to more finals. Though to be honest...if he got the break Bob got in 58 he would have won too.

Probably at least. But Karl wouldnt have dropped 50 with the title on the line...

[qrich]

Havlicek

[aboss4real24]

Benard king is the only player who beat out mj 4 da scoring title in his prime

[TheMarkMadsen]

KG

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Benard king is the only player who beat out mj 4 da scoring title in his prime
Didn't realize that mj was in his prime as a rookie

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Im not gonna vote for him over guys who literally double him up in all NBA first teams, MVPs, and finals trips while being considered just as good at the time as people considered all time elite.


Same could be said about KG... in his prime he was considered the best player in the league (or at least in the discussion) with guys like Tim Duncan in his prime...

[stalkerforlife]

Dirk.

[Kblaze8855]

Thats kinda like calling Wilt. Oscar, or Kareem in their primes as rookies isnt it?

If your rookie form is all time great...its fair to call it a prime id say. Perhaps not peak....

He put up like 31/7/6 with 3 steals in his 3rd month. He gave the DPOY 37/5/5 his first week. Giving out 50/15 to playoff teams....

85 Jordan plays that level for 15 years...hes still top 10.

He was capable of all time elite basketball out the gate.

I think its more fair to call the out the gate elites early career their prime.

Jordan. Shaq. Wilt.

Early career I might let slide. Late....thats when id call it off.

[Kblaze8855]

Same could be said about KG... in his prime he was considered the best player in the league (or at least in the discussion) with guys like Tim Duncan in his prime...


Fair enough.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Thats kinda like calling Wilt. Oscar, or Kareem in their primes as rookies isnt it?

If your rookie form is all time great...its fair to call it a prime id say. Perhaps not peak....

He put up like 31/7/6 with 3 steals in his 3rd month. He gave the DPOY 37/5/5 his first week. Giving out 50/15 to playoff teams....

85 Jordan plays that level for 15 years...hes still top 10.

He was capable of all time elite basketball out the gate.

I think its more fair to call the out the gate elites early career their prime.

Jordan. Shaq. Wilt.

Early career I might let slide. Late....thats when id call it off.

Depends on your definition of prime i guess..to me prime = the highest level you played at in your career...and why'll you're definitely right in that rookie MJ played at a 1st ballot HoF level i don't think he was in his "prime" since if you compared him with his early 90s self he was clearly a level below...

In the same way you wouldn't say lebron was prime in 05 or Kobe in 00 even though both were playing at HoF levels..

[DMAVS41]

Im not really worried about who gets the spot...I just wonder how some people get so overlooked. Its like bob and Hondo didnt even exist.

Given the same awards/all ____ teams that come out now Hondo would be an 8 time champ, 3-4 time finals MVP, and 10+ time all D team.....he puts up like 26/7/5 for 6-7 years in the playoffs....the most respected man in the sport along with Jerry West for much of 10 years.

But people just see Dirk or KG having too many votes and rush to vote for the other guy.

Its why these list always end up so off. People vote for who they think should win among the two people getting the most votes.

I understand liking Dirk....and KG. As you probably remember I knew KG back in the day. He was at my aunt Joyces house for thanksgiving watching Species in the 90s. Damn near everyone around here my age knew KG at least in passing.

Im not gonna vote for him over guys who literally double him up in all NBA first teams, MVPs, and finals trips while being considered just as good at the time as people considered all time elite.

KG or Dirk over Bob to me is pretty much just saying "Yea but...it was 1959".

What else could he do but beat the guys given him to play? And he wasnt winning on teams that didnt truly need him like Cousy(Hondo won 2 without RUssell....so I dont put him in the cousy category either)

Hes literally a jumper from being a 10 time all nba first teamer with 2 rings and 2 mvps.

Hes Karl Malone if Karl won it all and went to more finals. Though to be honest...if he got the break Bob got in 58 he would have won too.

Probably at least. But Karl wouldnt have dropped 50 with the title on the line...


It's hard to judge guys just off paper. I didn't see Pettit play so I often forget him....

Can't say much about a guy I just never saw. Can read about them...do research...etc, but I can't really have a proper Wilt vs Shaq debate....I only saw one of them play.

I'd imagine it's the same for pretty much everyone here with Pettit. He just happens to be a guy always forgotten...

[played0ut]

Mikan. Old era or not he was the Grandfather of dominant big man-- the guy's impact and dominance in the NBA isn't small.

[OncePerMonth]

Dirk

[Cousin Oliver]

Dirk

[DaOldLion]

KG

[Im so nba'd out]

MCW

[DaSeba5]

This is going down to the wire.

[MastaKilla]

Garnett

[Donkey4trading]

Garnett

[Rodmantheman]

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/0117/bos_a_kg01_576.jpg

[stalkerforlife]

How the heck is KG ahead of Dirk? Dirk carried a sub-par cast to a WORLD TITLE over the most STACKED team in the modern era.

KG was a ROLE player on a STACKED team for his lone title.

DIRK CARRIES TEAMS.

[DaSeba5]

We're getting close to midnight. Looks like KG is going to win. Is Dirk going to overwhelmingly win the next one?

[stalkerforlife]

Pierce and Allen averaged more points on better percentages across the board in the 2008 finals. KG shot 42.9% in the finals from the PF-C position.

And you have this guy over Dirk...

Please.

[DaSeba5]

Pierce and Allen averaged more points on better percentages across the board in the 2008 finals. KG shot 42.9% in the finals from the PF-C position.

And you have this guy over Dirk...

Please.

Umm... people voted for KG. This isn't only my opinion.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Pierce and Allen averaged more points on better percentages across the board in the 2008 finals. KG shot 42.9% in the finals from the PF-C position.

And you have this guy over Dirk...

Please.
Thoughts on Bill Russell?

[navy]

Pierce and Allen averaged more points on better percentages across the board in the 2008 finals. KG shot 42.9% in the finals from the PF-C position.

And you have this guy over Dirk...

Please.
What did Dirk shoot in his two finals?

[JohnFreeman]

This is going down to the wire.
You might as well skip voting 18 to be honest..

[DaSeba5]

You might as well skip voting 18 to be honest..

It would be funny if Dirk doesn't win the next one.

[navy]

It would be funny if Dirk doesn't win the next one.
Honestly, Dirk stans have been trying to get Dirk in since #12. Im not even sure if KG would have won this one if not for that.

[stalkerforlife]

Thoughts on Bill Russell?

Like you, never saw the guy play. From what I know, he had all the good players on his team, though.

Highly overrated, most likely.

[TylerOO]

micheal carter williams

[VIntageNOvel]

KG


and we need mr.2FMVP wade after this

[DaSeba5]

KG


and we need mr.2FMVP wade after this

Sadly Wade gets too much hate on here to be voted that early

[Milbuck]

****ing horseshit. Dirk should be on the list by now.

[stalkerforlife]

****ing horseshit. Dirk should be on the list by now.

It's pathetic, bro.

Dirk carried his team to 11 straight 50 win seasons, two finals, and a world title over the most stacked team in history. :facepalm

[JohnFreeman]

It's pathetic, bro.

Dirk carried his team to 11 straight 50 win seasons, two finals, and a world title over the most stacked team in history. :facepalm
He beat the 86 Celtics?

[stalkerforlife]

He beat the 86 Celtics?

Most stacked team relative to the era and talent at the given time, is what I meant.

86 Celtics would stomp a mudhole in the Heat.

[Warfan]

Well since barely anyone mentioned barkley/malone :facepalm and they cant be voted in, im going with KG

[VIntageNOvel]

Sadly Wade gets too much hate on here to be voted that early


this is rare case where winning 2 rings as a sidekick actually ruined your legacy

[DaSeba5]

this is rare case where winning 2 rings as a sidekick actually ruined your legacy

Wade has been under the radar for most his career. Winning 2 rings improved his legacy since people would probably forget about him.

[JohnFreeman]

I am voting for Wade next

[DaSeba5]

I think it's time to move on. KG is going to win and this thread has been up since 6:30 in the morning.

[fpliii]

KG and Dirk are both going to get in too late, but it's good to see them get some support. Those two (and Duncan) were all tremendous players. All three guys were 4s for the most part, but they played the game in very different ways, and left their marks on the league. Respect. :applause:

[red1]

http://tcmcentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/wade.jpg