Scottie Pippen > Dirk

[Donkey4trading]

Pippen is a top 5 perimeter defender of all time, a guy who can be counted on to stop the opposing teams best player, while also being able to dish out 6 assist, grab 7 rebounds and drop 20 points.

Pippen is a 10x all defensive player, was first team all defense from 92-99.. Dirk has never even made an all defensive 3rd team in his entire career..

Dirk does not impact the game as much as Pippen did, the only thing Dirk has over Pippen is scoring, but that gap isn't even close to evening out the impact the defense & playmaking differential between the two.

Pippen had years of 22/8/6 with 3 steals and a block per game on 50% shooting, a 22/8/7 with 3 steals and a block season, when has Dirk ever impacted the game in that many different ways?

In Pippens nba finals debut he put up 21/9/7 with 2.5 steals and a block per game on 45%..

Dirks nba finals debut.. 23/11/3 with .7 steals & .7 blocks on 39%

Pippen followed that up by dropping 21/8/8 with 2.5 steals and a block per game on 48% in his next finals.

Pippen was better at every single aspect of basketball by a large margin besides scoring..

Pippen only has one less all nba first team selections than Dirk also. So defensively Pippen is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dirk & while scoring wise Dirk has the edge it's close to being a wash when you consider that for a 6 to 7 year span Pippen was putting up 20ppg with 6-7 assist per game a night.

Overall, Pippen impacts the game more than Dirk.

[Nowitness]

Best player on a title team;

Pippen - 0

Dirk - 1

[Donkey4trading]

Best player on a title team;

Pippen - 0

Dirk - 1

Has Dirk ever shot above 41.6% in a finals series?

Has he ever impacted the game defensively like Pippen?

Has he ever been an all around machine who drops 21/8/8/3/1 on great effeciency in a finals series?

Dirk doesn't impact the game as much as Pippen did.

[SouBeachTalents]

Pippen is a top 5 perimeter defender of all time, a guy who can be counted on to stop the opposing teams best player, while also being able to dish out 6 assist, grab 7 rebounds and drop 20 points.

Pippen is a 10x all defensive player, was first team all defense from 92-99.. Dirk has never even made an all defensive 3rd team in his entire career..

Dirk does not impact the game as much as Pippen did, the only thing Dirk has over Pippen is scoring, but that gap isn't even close to evening out the impact the defense & playmaking differential between the two.

Pippen had years of 22/8/6 with 3 steals and a block per game on 50% shooting, a 22/8/7 with 3 steals and a block season, when has Dirk ever impacted the game in that many different ways?

In Pippens nba finals debut he put up 21/9/7 with 2.5 steals and a block per game on 45%..

Dirks nba finals debut.. 23/11/3 with .7 steals & .7 blocks on 39%

Pippen followed that up by dropping 21/8/8 with 2.5 steals and a block per game on 48% in his next finals.

Pippen was better at every single aspect of basketball by a large margin besides scoring..

Pippen only has one less all nba first team selections than Dirk also. So defensively Pippen is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dirk & while scoring wise Dirk has the edge it's close to being a wash when you consider that for a 6 to 7 year span Pippen was putting up 20ppg with 6-7 assist per game a night.

Overall, Pippen impacts the game more than Dirk.

Not even Jordan has done that

[Nowitness]

Has Dirk ever shot above 41.6% in a finals series?

Has he ever impacted the game defensively like Pippen?

Has he ever been an all around machine who drops 21/8/8/3/1 on great effeciency in a finals series?

Dirk doesn't impact the game as much as Pippen did.

Has Pippen ever been the best player on a title team?

[Donkey4trading]

Not even Jordan has done that

:lol :lol you know what I meant.

Dirk has never made an all defensive team.

[Donkey4trading]

Has Pippen ever been the best player on a title team?

Nope, still performed better in his first 2 finals than Dirk did his first 2 finals.

Now answer my questions or address something from my OP.

[G.O.A.T]

Dirk has never even made an all defensive 3rd team in his entire career..

No one has, it doesn't exist.




Overall, Pippen impacts the game more than Dirk.

On the whole you make a number of fair and good points to support your stance. But you are also under selling Dirk to make your point which is pretty obvious. Pippen has just more than half as many all-star and all-NBA selections as Dirk. Dirk also has the MVP in 2007 and the distinction of having been the best player on two finals teams, the 2011 NBA Champions and winning a Finals MVP, all things Pippen can not claim.

If players were evaluated by stats or how diverse and objectively measurable their impact was than your argument would be irrefutable, but as it is, there are two sides.

Pippen over Dirk or Dirk over Pippen are justifiable stances.

[Reggie43]

Peak for peak? Pippen easily.

[backb0ard]

If were comparing sidekicks, then I agree

Pippen>>>>Terry

[knickswoman]

offense>>defense. Defending is a dirty job. If you can play offense, then why still play defense. If you can be the CEO then why still be the janitor. Let others who has no jobs play that role because youre wasting your time doing low value/dirty work jobs. Theres a reason why you can get defenders in the 2nd round or undrafted.

[knickswoman]

That's why defense is for beta.

[Roundball_Rock]

They are close but Dirk was the better player although Pippen has a better overall resume if you factor in team success.

[SouBeachTalents]

That's why defense is for beta.

:facepalm

[Donkey4trading]

No one has, it doesn't exist.





On the whole you make a number of fair and good points to support your stance. But you are also under selling Dirk to make your point which is pretty obvious. Pippen has just more than half as many all-star and all-NBA selections as Dirk. Dirk also has the MVP in 2007 and the distinction of having been the best player on two finals teams, the 2011 NBA Champions and winning a Finals MVP, all things Pippen can not claim.

If players were evaluated by stats or how diverse and objectively measurable their impact was than your argument would be irrefutable, but as it is, there are two sides.

Pippen over Dirk or Dirk over Pippen are justifiable stances.

Dirk is a great player, no denying that. To your points though, yes Dirk won MVP in 07 but was he really the best player in the league or was the media holding a grudge against a certain somebody? For alot of people 07 is more infamous for being the year an 8th seeding beat the MVPS 1st seeded team in the playoffs.

In 06 Dirk & the Mavs had that epic finals collapse and Dirks play was underwhelming, 39% shooting is awwwful for a 7 footer that is only a great player because of what he does on offense.

2011 he played well and deservingly won FMVP but still only shot 41.6% as a 7 footer in the finals, but we all know what that finals is most famous for. I always felt like 2011 was a little flukey considering how hot seemingly the entire team got in the playoffs and because of Lebrons epic collapse, but maybe that's unfair to say.

[SupermanOnSteroids]

cookoo cookoo

[G.O.A.T]

Dirk is a great player, no denying that. To your points though, yes Dirk won MVP in 07 but was he really the best player in the league or was the media holding a grudge against a certain somebody? For alot of people 07 is more infamous for being the year an 8th seeding beat the MVPS 1st seeded team in the playoffs.

In 06 Dirk & the Mavs had that epic finals collapse and Dirks play was underwhelming, 39% shooting is awwwful for a 7 footer that is only a great player because of what he does on offense.

2011 he played well and deservingly won FMVP but still only shot 41.6% as a 7 footer in the finals, but we all know what that finals is most famous for. I always felt like 2011 was a little flukey considering how hot seemingly the entire team got in the playoffs and because of Lebrons epic collapse, but maybe that's unfair to say.

Nothing you say is untrue, I tend to agree, but I don't think stats define Dirk's impact. Imagine how Pippen's numbers might change if his offensive game was the focal point of the defense instead of the best scorer on a title team ever being the focal point.

Like I said, I can see it going either way depending on what is most important to a person when ranking or evaluating a player.

No one would have said it's crazy to take Pippen over Dirk in 2010, in fact, I think most would have. But that title means something when your the guy, when's it your franchise. And for over a decade that was Dirk for Dallas. He's the greatest Maverick ever, the greatest international player (not to play college in America) and maybe the most unique dominant seven player since Charles Barkley or Magic Johnson.

I rank Dirk higher in terms of "greatness" because of his MVP and Title and Finals MVP. Perhaps that's over simplifying it, but when everything else is sort of equal, that's what matters most to me. Dirk had more chances than Scottie, who knows how Scottie would have done. Maybe it's not fair. Maybe it was luck, but luck is just probability taken personally anyway.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk...

[Ca$H]

first u have Scottie The Naughty Pippen... Known for his amazingly naughty sexuality off the court.. He was even naughtier on the court... One of the most crafty players of all time... He wasn't just jordans *****... He was his own man.... Powerful... Milk chocolate... great man... Amazing player


then u have Dirk The Horse Faced Assassin Nowitzki... he looks like a fukkin horse no lie... He's known to be more shy in the bedroom... But never shy on court... He has one of the most unstoppable moves in NBA history... He comes up big in big games and cums big in big bedrooms... Great player... Great father and son... Good not great bowler... Amazing player

[houston]

Dirk is better than Pippen cause of his offensive skills is wayy superior

[Asukal]

Nothing you say is untrue, I tend to agree, but I don't think stats define Dirk's impact. Imagine how Pippen's numbers might change if his offensive game was the focal point of the defense instead of the best scorer on a title team ever being the focal point.

Like I said, I can see it going either way depending on what is most important to a person when ranking or evaluating a player.

No one would have said it's crazy to take Pippen over Dirk in 2010, in fact, I think most would have. But that title means something when your the guy, when's it your franchise. And for over a decade that was Dirk for Dallas. He's the greatest Maverick ever, the greatest international player (not to play college in America) and maybe the most unique dominant seven player since Charles Barkley or Magic Johnson.

I rank Dirk higher in terms of "greatness" because of his MVP and Title and Finals MVP. Perhaps that's over simplifying it, but when everything else is sort of equal, that's what matters most to me. Dirk had more chances than Scottie, who knows how Scottie would have done. Maybe it's not fair. Maybe it was luck, but luck is just probability taken personally anyway.

This. Something stat nerds don't understand. Context is very important, and while Dirk and Pippen have similar stats they have different roles. :cheers:

[Cone]

tell me this is a joke. goddamn retards

dirk is a top 20 player of all time.. scottie is nowhere near dirk as a player

dirk >>>>>>>>>>> scottie and its not even close

[robert_shaww]

tell me this is a joke. goddamn retards

dirk is a top 20 player of all time.. scottie is nowhere near dirk as a player

dirk >>>>>>>>>>> scottie and its not even close


:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[MavsPoke]

Pippen was a sidekick.

Dirk is the man.

Please don't ever compare them again.

But nice troll I guess.

[Donkey4trading]

This. Something stat nerds don't understand. Context is very important, and while Dirk and Pippen have similar stats they have different roles. :cheers:

Except that in 94, Pippen without Jordan, led the bulls to 55 wins.. 2 less wins after losing the GOAT from his team..

During that year Pippen put up 22/9/6/3/1 on 49% as the focal point of the offensive.. Finished 3rd in MVP voting, finished 4th in DPOY voting, was all nba first team, all nba first team defense

And you are correct they do have different roles..

Pippens roles is to shut down the opposing teams best player, anchor the defense, run the offense, crash the offensive glass* pass out about 6 assist per game & drop 20 buckets while he's at it.

*Pippen is a better offensive rebound than Dirk ever was, Pippen had 7 straight years of averaging 2+ offensive rebounds per game, Dirk has never gotten close to this for even a season. Dirk is a terrible offensive rebounder for his position, I mean a guy like Kobe averages more offensive rebounds per game than Dirk*

While Dirks role is to go score 25 points, grab defensive boards & don't worry about anything else.

Pippen had more responsibility than Dirk on the court.

[97 bulls]

I too feel that Pip is better than Nowitzki. Its just a matter of impact. Pippen brings so many more things to the table as opposed to Nowitzki.

[Donkey4trading]

Funny how I'm apparently the troll even though I'm the only person bringing any type of discussion to the thread besides G.O.A.T. & I'm backing up my point while the same people calling me a troll are bringing nothin to the table.

Pippen was on a whole different level defensively, a better passer, a better play maker, a better rebounder (offensive rebounds>>defensive rebounds) more versatile, tougher, could an an offense & a defense, Dirk only has scoring on him, and that scoring gap doesn't make up the difference in all the other areas.

[KOBE143]

Agree

Pippen was a top 10 ten talent.. If he didnt play with Jordon, he probably would be in the top 10 now..

[masonanddixon]

I'm a huge Pippen guy as well but you're really underselling Dirk and using the usual racist stereotypes of all white players e.g. Dirk is a telephone pole on defense, etc etc.

You have to account for the fact Dirk has never had a consistent 2nd option on his team since 2005, so he cannot afford to get into any sort of foul trouble. I'm not sure why you chose to compare a SF to a PF and I wouldn't mind if you had him over Dirk but I personally believe Dirk to be the better player.

[BoutPractice]

I am a big Pippen fan (he and KG have always been my models for how to defend), but Dirk is better. If you're going to use any argument against Dirk, let it not be impact... although Pippen was a high impact player himself, there is ample statistical evidence of Dirk being one of the highest impact players of his generation, from the consistently great adjusted +/- to the consistent winning percentage of his teams (second greatest 50+ win streak after Tim Duncan) in spite of a high roster turnover.

His impact goes way beyond raw stats.. on the court it's about spacing and perpetual scoring threat combined with enough bball IQ to know when and when not to push things, off the court it's about setting a winning culture and giving his teams hope that they can achieve something worth talking about as long as he's leading them.

[backb0ard]

Scottie Pippen on his only year as focal point of the offense, against rival Knicks in the playoffs:

21.7 pts 7.7 rbs 4.7 asts 2 stls on .405 shooting


Dirk Nowitzki, 6 playoffs series against 5 time champions Spurs in the playoffs:

23.4 pts 9.6 rbs 2.2 asts 1.2 stls on .482 shooting

Of the 6 playoffs series between Mavericks and Spurs, twice the Spurs won and went on to eventually become NBA champions, and the Mavericks won twice.

[Asukal]

Funny how I'm apparently the troll even though I'm the only person bringing any type of discussion to the thread besides G.O.A.T. & I'm backing up my point while the same people calling me a troll are bringing nothin to the table.

Pippen was on a whole different level defensively, a better passer, a better play maker, a better rebounder (offensive rebounds>>defensive rebounds) more versatile, tougher, could an an offense & a defense, Dirk only has scoring on him, and that scoring gap doesn't make up the difference in all the other areas.

Ohh shut it. Pippen only averaged 20+ ppg 3 times in his career, Dirk averages 22 his whole career while being the focus of the defense every game. The gap in defense does not overshadow the gap in offense. Dirk is the number 1 option of the offense, Pippen mostly was not. Then there is the gap in achievements, Dirk led his team to a championship against the heat no less and then won MVP. These things Pippen never achieved. Dirk is top 15-20 imo, Pippen is 21-30. So what is your agenda? :rolleyes:

[Reggie43]

How about a hypothetical matchup with similar teams. Who do you guys think would win peak for peak?

[sportjames23]

They are close but Dirk was the better player although Pippen has a better overall resume if you factor in team success.


Why do I have the feeling you'd give Dirk the edge over MJ tho? :coleman:

[Dragic4Life]

Pippen won 6 rings as co-alpha.

Dirk won 1 as the alpha.

Close if you ask me.

[moaz]

Please quote one manager saying that he has to adjust his team defense to contain Pippen and then we can talk.

[Reggie43]

Please quote one manager saying that he has to adjust his team defense to contain Pippen and then we can talk.

Funny thing is that the opposite happened, teams adjusted their teams offense because of Pippen's defensive abilities.

[ralph_i_el]

Dirk is a one man offense. Easiest player in the league to play off of.

Fuxk I ain't even mad. Give Dirk Pippen on his swuad and it would have been a decade of rape.

[ArbitraryWater]

I too feel that Pip is better than Nowitzki. Its just a matter of impact. Pippen brings so many more things to the table as opposed to Nowitzki.

These guys :roll:

[moaz]

These guys :roll:

I know :facepalm .

My reply was in response to this sentence. You can say anything about Dirk and I'll maybe discuss it with you. But questioning Dirk's impact (both on his team and on the opposite teams) just disqualify the poster.

[scandisk_]

These guys :roll:

some of them even belief that Pip has more impact than bron :mad:

lemme find it

[To4]

Dirk!!

[To4]

I never heard Dirk that he wants to be traded.. or didn't cry for the last shot of the game..

[masonanddixon]

These guys :roll:

It's 97 bulls man... He will always think [insert name of random black nba guy] is better than Dirk.

[miles berg]

Lol ok.

Dirk is definitely above Pipp.

[StephHamann]

http://www.thesportsfanjournal.com/columns/ed-the-sports-fan/the-day-an-18-year-old-dirk-nowitzki-gave-scottie-pippen-52-points-as-told-by-charles-barkley/

[Reggie43]

http://www.thesportsfanjournal.com/columns/ed-the-sports-fan/the-day-an-18-year-old-dirk-nowitzki-gave-scottie-pippen-52-points-as-told-by-charles-barkley/

Have a 15 year old magazine with an article about Dirk made by a german writer describing the exact same game except that there was no mention of Jordan on the team, no point total either only the matchup with Dirk and Barkley. Heres an excerpt.

So Barkley wasn't ready for the 6-foot-11 Dirk Nowitzki when he stepped on the court in Berlin. He didn't expect a skinny 19-year old kid taking the ball upcourt, drilling three pointers, stealing Chuck's rebounds and dunking on him too. After the game, Barkley told the German press: "He can call me if he wants to get to the US."

[Fiddlesticks]

Best player on a title team;

Pippen - 0

Dirk - 1
Losing in the finals as the best player
Dirk- 1
Pippen- 0

[Mass Debator]

Is there any better SF fit with Dirk than prime Pippen?

Jason Kidd
Caron Butler
Scottie Pippen
Dirk Nowitzki
Tyson Chandler

Jose Barea
Jason Terry
Deshawn Stevenson
Shawn Marion
Brendan Haywood
Ian Mahinmi
Corey Brewer
Steve Novak

Yes, please.