There is no way in hell Lebron is higher than Hakeem...

[stalkerforlife]

Hakeem won B2B titles with the WORST supporting cast in the HISTORY of B2B titles. (Kobe's was 2nd worst) Hakeem did NOT need to collude and won BACK TO BACK titles with ROLE players. Lebron needed a top 4 all time SG, a player that won a FINALS MVP and was a top 3 player in the world when they colluded. He also needed a superstar PF and the best shooters surrounding him.

Hakeem is IN ANOTHER WORLD DEFENSIVELY. Hakeem was DOMINANT defensively. Hakeem has more ALL-NBA selections and more ALL-DEFENSE selections. Hakeem led the league in blocked shots 3 different seasons and rebounds twice.

Hakeem did JUST AS MUCH with LESS.

[navy]

While Hakeem's teams werent stacked what is with the need to diminish stars teammates to ridiculous degrees?

[dubeta]

so kobe's locked out of the top 10 forever then?

[Angel Face]

Hakeem > Lebron, Lebron's max spot in ATG list is #11. Left Miami, goes to Cleveland, saying championships won't be as easy, then recruits Kevin Love, to form new big 3. Lebron, Love, Irving. Lebron needs to be surrounded with superstars to win. Hakeem doesn't.

[dubeta]

Hakeem > Lebron, Lebron's max spot in ATG list is #11. Left Miami, goes to Cleveland, saying championships won't be as easy, then recruits Kevin Love, to form new big 3. Lebron, Love, Irving. Lebron needs to be surrounded with superstars to win. Hakeem doesn't.

superstars aare statpadders who never sniffed the playoffs?? :roll:

[andgar923]

so kobe's locked out of the top 10 forever then?
this

Whatever place Bron is, Kobe is below him.

[dubeta]

these kobetards are getting hilarious :oldlol:

him and kenneththefgt keep trying to find ways to place others over bran

but whoever is above bran is also above kobe :oldlol:

[Fudge]

Haha my nigha always hitting it right on the money. Always hitting the spot. My spot. I love you.

[onhcetum]

Just to piggy back, let's remember that Lebron had zero rings until he teamed up with Wade and Bosh, two franchise players (both from the east) who were coming off 26ppg and 24ppg seasons, respectively.

That's like Magic, Bird, and Jordan joining the same team. Or Duncan joining teams with T-Mac and Kobe.

What's worst is that they were also trying to recruit Carmelo. Like jesus christ, how much help does Lebron need? Does he want a guarantee title or some shit?

Same with that fraud Durant. He has a top 5 player in Westbrook and Ibaka... and yet, he needs MORE HELP? HAHAHA

Duncan and Dirk are the last of a dying breed. Throw in Kobe for 2009 and 2010 as well. We give him crap of 2004-2006, but he did go back to back without Shaq.

[SouBeachTalents]

Just to piggy back, let's remember that Lebron had zero rings until he teamed up with Wade and Bosh, two franchise players (both from the east) who were coming off 26ppg and 24ppg seasons, respectively.

That's like Magic, Bird, and Jordan joining the same team. Or Duncan joining teams with T-Mac and Kobe.

What's worst is that they were also trying to recruit Carmelo. Like jesus christ, how much help does Lebron need? Does he want a guarantee title or some shit?

Same with that fraud Durant. He has a top 5 player in Westbrook and Ibaka... and yet, he needs MORE HELP? HAHAHA

Duncan and Dirk are the last of a dying breed. Throw in Kobe for 2009 and 2010 as well. We give him crap of 2004-2006, but he did go back to back without Shaq.

:biggums: :facepalm

So Wade & Bosh are just as good Magic & Bird?

[DaSeba5]

I have no allegiance to LeBron. He's not on the Heat anymore. How does one piggy back on 2 players if he's better than them? You act like Wade and Bosh averaged 30 points a game and carried LeBron to two titles. He earned them. He was the clear best player on the team.

[dubeta]

Just to piggy back, let's remember that Lebron had zero rings until he teamed up with Wade and Bosh, two franchise players (both from the east) who were coming off 26ppg and 24ppg seasons, respectively.

That's like Magic, Bird, and Jordan joining the same team. Or Duncan joining teams with T-Mac and Kobe.

What's worst is that they were also trying to recruit Carmelo. Like jesus christ, how much help does Lebron need? Does he want a guarantee title or some shit?

Same with that fraud Durant. He has a top 5 player in Westbrook and Ibaka... and yet, he needs MORE HELP? HAHAHA

Duncan and Dirk are the last of a dying breed. Throw in Kobe for 2009 and 2010 as well. We give him crap of 2004-2006, but he did go back to back without Shaq.

:oldlol:

Bosh and Wade COMBINED the last 2 playoffs were as good as Gasol

[onhcetum]

:biggums: :facepalm

So Wade & Bosh are just as good Magic & Bird?

Stop reaching... Magic and Bird were top 10 players at the moment... you could say the same for Wade and Bosh. Wade was maybe even the best player or even top 3 at one point. So you're saying Wade (at some point in his peak) wasn't at least as good as Magic or Bird?

[stalkerforlife]

Haha my nigha always hitting it right on the money. Always hitting the spot. My spot. I love you.

I love you, too.

:banana:

[stalkerforlife]

:biggums: :facepalm

So Wade & Bosh are just as good Magic & Bird?

Relative to each era, dipshit.

[Round Mound]

Hakeem was the 2nd Best Player in the World after Jordan in 94 and 95. But to say Kobe had one of the worst supporting casts is blashemy. Kobe had the 2nd or 3rd Best PF in the Game in Pau Gasol, a Twin Towyer System with Bynum a Top 5 Center and Odom who was among the Best Sixtman and verstaile players. Lebron in every aspect of the game but long range shooting. Now Hakeem? Was Better than Both.

[DaSeba5]

Relative to each era, dipshit.

Relative to era? Magic and Bird were like the 1A and 1B of the NBA. Wade wasn't the top 3 player in the league that he was before the big 3 (besides in 2011) and Bosh has NEVER been even remotely on their level.

[1987_Lakers]

We gonna ignore how LeBron took on a stacked team in 2012 with OKC featuring Durant/Westbrook/Harden/Ibaka, also look how bad Bosh & Wade played in the 2013 postseason. LeBron was carrying Miami from the 2013 postseason all the way through the 2014 Finals.

[stalkerforlife]

Hakeem was the 2nd Best Player in the World after Jordan in 94 and 95. But to say Kobe had one of the worst supporting casts is blashemy. Kobe had the 2nd or 3rd Best PF in the Game in Pau Gasol, a Twin Towyer System with Bynum a Top 5 Center and Odom who was among the Best Sixtman and verstaile players. Lebron in every aspect of the game but long range shooting. Now Hakeem? Was Better than Both.

Kobe had the 2nd worst supporting cast in the history of back to back titles. Don't even talk to me about Bynum. Odom was a great ROLE player, never once an all-star. Pau is 0-16 in the playoffs without his alpha daddy.

[stalkerforlife]

We gonna ignore how LeBron took on a stacked team in 2012 with OKC featuring Durant/Westbrook/Harden/Ibaka, also look how bad Bosh & Wade played in the 2013 postseason. LeBron was carrying Miami from the 2013 postseason all the way through the 2014 Finals.

Are you gonna ignore Lebron LOSING the 2011 finals by HIMSELF? He SABOTAGED Wade's FINALS MVP in the process.

[1987_Lakers]

Are you gonna ignore Lebron LOSING the 2011 finals by HIMSELF? He SABOTAGED Wade's FINALS MVP in the process.

Are you gonna ignore how badly Hakeem regressed during the '91 & '92 seasons? D-Rob & Ewing were head and shoulders ahead of Hakeem those years.

Keep nitpicking though.:oldlol:

[SouBeachTalents]

Relative to each era, dipshit.

That's some of the dumbest logic I've ever heard. So you seriously believe Wade & Bosh, CHRIS ****ING BOSH are comparable to Magic & Bird?

[Ca$H]

Kobe had the 2nd worst supporting cast in the history of back to back titles. Don't even talk to me about Bynum. Odom was a great ROLE player, never once an all-star. Pau is 0-16 in the playoffs without his alpha daddy.

LOL. Splitter > injured Bynum. Kwahi > Odom.

[sportjames23]

Haha my nigha always hitting it right on the money. Always hitting the spot. My spot. I love you.


:biggums:

[houston]

Back 2 back MVP on a championship team yea he better than hakeem

[sportjames23]

Back 2 back MVP on a championship team yea he better than hakeem

And here comes the local Hakeem hater. :oldlol:

[Milbuck]

Hakeem was the 2nd Best Player in the World after Jordan in 94 and 95. But to say Kobe had one of the worst supporting casts is blashemy. Kobe had the 2nd or 3rd Best PF in the Game in Pau Gasol, a Twin Towyer System with Bynum a Top 5 Center and Odom who was among the Best Sixtman and verstaile players. Lebron in every aspect of the game but long range shooting. Now Hakeem? Was Better than Both.
Bynum was a top 5 center? He didn't even play in the 2008 finals run and put up 7ppg in the repeat championship runs.

[dubeta]

Bynum was a top 5 center? He didn't even play in the 2008 finals run and put up 7ppg in the repeat championship runs.
Dwight Yao shaq amare Bynum top 5

[G.O.A.T]

Not that I have a problem with Hakeem over LeBron but there is certainly and argument to made that LeBron is greater already.

I can see why someone would prefer Hakeem, the things he brings to the table seem like the perfect fit on almost any team. There really isn't anything that he can't do. But he didn't accomplish as much as LeBron did. LeBron has been the best player in the league for six years. Hakeem had a two year run, during Jordan's hiatus. Part of that is timing, but as they say, timing is everything. LeBron's four MVP's compared to Hakeem's one is a significant factor, but not a defining one alone.

LeBron's won as many titles as the man as Hakeem did. He's been to more finals, more conference finals and already won more playoff series.

I understand the teammate argument, but I don't think it holds up. Yes Hakeem won with less talented second and third players, but those teams that won were actually very good. Players like Horry, Cassell, Maxwell, Elie and Smith routinely hit big shots and one of them always seemed to come up with a 20 point game if it was needed. Not to mention Thorpe for the first title run and Drexler for the second, the teams second best player by the numbers each year.

The level of support the games other stars had during those title runs should be noted as well. It's not like today where stars are paired up (or in trios) everywhere.

Ewing had Starks and Oakley

Pippen had Grant and Armstrong

Robinson had Rodman and Elliott

Barkley had KJ but the two could never stay healthy together

Shaq had Penny but they were in their early twenties

Malone had Stockton, that was the best duo probably.

Not exactly the Thunder with Westbrook/Durant/Harden/Ibaka or the Spurs with three Hall of Famers and the guy who won Finals MVP. The Celtics with three hall of famers and their best player at point guard. The Clippers with Blake and Paul, Rockets with Harden and Howard. Teams are built different now.

Finally on the teammate subject. We've seen LeBron do more with less, going to the Finals in '07, taking the NBA Champs to seven in '08 and winning 60+ games in '09 and '10. Doing it all without a bonafide all-star teammate.

Hakeem was in the same spot from 1988 to 1992 and he struggled to win a playoff series and wanted to be traded.

Never have a problem with Hakeem over LeBron right now, but pretending he's not close is an emotional over-reaction.

[deja vu]

Honestly if Jordan didn't retire to play baseball, Hakeem would have had zero titles.

Still what he did with a less than stellar supporting cast was phenomenal. No doubt he's better than LeBron who needed superstacked teams.

[Fudge]

Dwight Yao shaq amare Bynum top 5
Nope.

[Megabox!]

Honestly if Jordan didn't retire to play baseball, Hakeem would have had zero titles.

Still what he did with a less than stellar supporting cast was phenomenal. No doubt he's better than LeBron who needed superstacked teams.
Why is everyone constantly calling those Heat teams super stacked? Yes they had some big names on the roster but they were either dealing with injuries or clearly out of their primes.

[Harison]

Not only Dream higher on ATL, but if they would be drafted today, everyone (except LBJ homers) would pick Hakeem first. Hell, Dream was drafted ahead of GOAT himself and its not considered a slight.

[russwest0]

What Hakeem did in Houston is the equivalent of if LeBron had stayed in Cleveland and won b2b titles.

Of course Hakeem is higher than LeBron on the all time lists.

[deja vu]

Kobe didn't have a mediocre supporting cast. Pau Gasol was a top 3 PF and Odom was a very talented, versatile player. Yeah Gasol didn't have a playoff win before joining the Lakers. Neither did Kevin Love.

[houston]

And here comes the local Hakeem hater. :oldlol:


what its true Lebron is greater than Hakeem

[KBaller33]

It's funny how people want to bring up outside circumstances when LeBron wins(Rose injury, weak East, Allen's shot) but ignore that Hakeem only won when MJ wasn't playing or when he had just came back a month earlier in '95. People say LeBron was only able to beat a young Durant and Thunder, but ignore that Shaq was the same age as Durant and Westbrook when Hakeem beat him in '95.

And then you want to say the big Three in Miami would be like Magic,Bird, and Jordan teaming up? I'll give you that Wade was a superstar and top three player at that time, but Bosh? When did Bosh lead Toronto to anything? All he did was take them to a first round exit if anything. To compare Bosh to Magic or Bird is a joke.

After all this, I don't see the case for Hakeem over LeBron, even though Hakeem is one of the greats.

[LBJFTW]

these kobetards are getting hilarious :oldlol:

him and kenneththefgt keep trying to find ways to place others over bran

but whoever is above bran is also above kobe :oldlol:

As much as I hate bran, I'm afraid you are right. That said Hakeem is still above bran and more above Kobe.

[russwest0]

It's funny how people want to bring up outside circumstances when LeBron wins(Rose injury, weak East, Allen's shot) but ignore that Hakeem only won when MJ wasn't playing or when he had just came back a month earlier in '95. People say LeBron was only able to beat a young Durant and Thunder, but ignore that Shaq was the same age as Durant and Westbrook when Hakeem beat him in '95.

And then you want to say the big Three in Miami would be like Magic,Bird, and Jordan teaming up? I'll give you that Wade was a superstar and top three player at that time, but Bosh? When did Bosh lead Toronto to anything? All he did was take them to a first round exit if anything. To compare Bosh to Magic or Bird is a joke.

After all this, I don't see the case for Hakeem over LeBron, even though Hakeem is one of the greats.

Okay, thats great and all, but Hakeem's 2nd and 3rd options were Otis Thorpe and Vernon Maxwell, guys who have a combined 1 all star appearance between their careers.

[bdreason]

I have Hakeem at #9 and LeBron at #11.

[LBJFTW]

Okay, thats great and all, but Hakeem's 2nd and 3rd options were Otis Thorpe and Vernon Maxwell, guys who have a combined 1 all star appearance between their careers.

You know a guy is above bran when the argument for being above him is "well, he didn't have to face Jordan" :lol

Newsflash, bran never faced Jordan either.....

[stalkerforlife]

You know a guy is above bran when the argument for being above him is "well, he didn't have to face Jordan" :lol

Newsflash, bran never faced Jordan either.....

:roll: :applause:

[KBaller33]

You know a guy is above bran when the argument for being above him is "well, he didn't have to face Jordan" :lol

Newsflash, bran never faced Jordan either.....

All OP brings up is Hakeem had worse teammates than LeBron. He acts like Wade was Flash Wade from '06 when they won rings. Wade stopped being a top three player after 2011. Bosh had no playoff success when he joined the big Three. He had superstars numbers but not the impact. LeBron had better teammates, but should that diminish his accomplishments?

LeBron's 2012 postseason was dominant. OP fails to mention that Bosh was hurt in the 2nd round that year and wasn't the same the rest of the way. Wade also wasn't playing like himself either. He was too inconsistent. LeBron was the only thing consistent about that team that postseason run. Not to mention his number of great games he had (game 4 vs Indiana, game 6 vs Boston, game 5 vs OKC), so LeBron wasn't just easing his way to rings as OP thinks.


Didn't Bosh have 0 points in the game 7 of the '13 finals? But he's a superstar right?


Then OP brings up Hakeem's defensive ability, stats, and awards, which are all great. But LeBron's versatility and accolades speak for themselves. Hakeem isn't doesn't beat LeBron in accolades. LeBron already has more all-nba first team selections and all-defense first team selections than Hakeem.


So no, Hakeem not facing Jordan isn't my only argument, and OP really has no argument.

[dc_chilling]

Not only Dream higher on ATL, but if they would be drafted today, everyone (except LBJ homers) would pick Hakeem first. Hell, Dream was drafted ahead of GOAT himself and its not considered a slight.

I don't know if you noticed the coverage/hype of Lebron in high school, but no player in NBA history would have been drafted ahead of him outside of MAYBE Shaq or KAJ.

If you are talking retroactively, I don't think any gm would draft Hakeem over James. Lebron has accomplished more already at 29 than Hakeem did in his entire career. Plus, Lebron has been the best player in the world for at least 6 years straight; one of the longest stretches any player has remained the best in the world.

I personally think both Hakeem and Lebron are in the top 10. Lebron just passed him a while ago imo.

[Prometheus]

LeBron is better than Hakeem was, ISH agrees with me, OP is a ****** and his red bars prove it.

[305Baller]

LeBron has dominated his position much more dramatically than Hakeem ever did. Sure, maybe Hakeem had greater competition but that's not LeBron's fault.

[Inferno]

In 10 years Bron will probably be above 1-3 spots above Kobe...he'll probably get another MVP, maybe 1 or 2 more rings + FMVPs, top 5(?) in scoring all time, and he'll probably have better career averages too...not to take away from Kobe or to piss off his fans / Bron haters, but you can hate on Bron all you want, peak-for-peak he was(is) just a better player than Bean by a small margin IMO :confusedshrug:

[russwest0]

In 10 years Bron will probably be above 1-3 spots above Kobe...he'll probably get another MVP, maybe 1 or 2 more rings + FMVPs, top 5(?) in scoring all time, and he'll probably have better career averages too...

And if he loses in the Finals next year and doesn't win MVP?

[Inferno]

And if he loses in the Finals next year and doesn't win MVP?

Hmmm....2/6 and 4 MVPs...I'll have to see how his career plays out then. Depends on if he puts up a 2011-esque Finals effort or more like 2014 (more aggressive though)...can't always pin a loss on a player if the other team is simply better...

IDK, as of now Kobe's had the better career, but who do you think had the better statistical peak?

[eliteballer]

LeBron has dominated his position much more dramatically than Hakeem ever did. Sure, maybe Hakeem had greater competition but that's not LeBron's fault.

LOL...the way Hakeem took out Robinson, Ewing, and Shaq and his total play in the 94 and 95 playoffs is way beyond anything LeBron has done.

[Inferno]

LOL...the way Hakeem took out Robinson, Ewing, and Shaq and his total play in the 94 and 95 playoffs is way beyond anything LeBron has done.

Yeah not debating Hakeem vs Bron right now but Bron vs Kobe in response to people on the front page

[stalkerforlife]

And if he loses in the Finals next year and doesn't win MVP?

"He needed more help. Kyrie, Love, Waiters, Allen, Miller, Thompson, etc...they all suck!

[stalkerforlife]

LOL...the way Hakeem took out Robinson, Ewing, and Shaq and his total play in the 94 and 95 playoffs is way beyond anything LeBron has done.

Dominated the center era when it was at it's PEAK.

[sportjames23]

Dominated the center era when it was at it's PEAK.


Word up. Aside from Durant, who does Lebron have for comp at the SF position today? All the other SFs are either past their primes or have yet to enter their primes.

[eliteballer]

Yeah not debating Hakeem vs Bron right now but Bron vs Kobe in response to people on the front page

MVP's are awards based on a vote by reporters. It doesn't really mean anything if you're comparing players, and it's well established how inflated LeBron's stats are(specifically his rebounding and FG%) because of how he guns to keep his stats pretty.

Kobe carrying the Lakers to 3 finals averaging 30/6/6, starting at the age LeBron is NOW, with major knee issues and a worse supporting cast against better competition in the West is way above LeBron's run with the Heat.

[1987_Lakers]

The problem with the Hakeem supporters is that they only look at the '94 & '95 seasons and just ignore the rest of his career. I've never seen a player get such a boost from just his peak play.

Let's ignore the fact that Hakeem got eliminated in the first round for 4 straight seasons (88-91) and his team didn't even reach the postseason the very next year in '92. Can you imagine a peak LeBron led team missing the postseason? ISH would have a field day.

[Inferno]

"He needed more help. Kyrie, Love, Waiters, Allen, Miller, Thompson, etc...they all suck!

Come on breh, Wade and Bosh did not do that great in 2013 or 2014, definitely not "superstar" level, and arguably not even All-Star level :confusedshrug:

Wade 2013-2014: 16.8/4.3/4.3 on 48/36/76 shooting
Bosh 2013-2014: 13.4/6.5/1.3 48/41/74 shooting

Gasol 09-10: 19/11/3 on 56/-/74 shooting
Odom 09-10: 11/9/2 on 50/37/61 shooting

[dubeta]

Word up. Aside from Durant, who does Lebron have for comp at the SF position today? All the other SFs are either past their primes or have yet to enter their primes.

melo george durant kawhi

and lebron was battling pierce in his early days

soon wiggins and jabari

SF is the most stacked position other than PG

[sportjames23]

melo george durant kawhi

and lebron was battling pierce in his early days

soon wiggins and jabari

SF is the most stacked position other than PG


Ok, forgot about Melo, so you got me there. But them other dudes haven't hit their strides yet.

[305Baller]

The problem with the Hakeem supporters is that they only look at the '94 & '95 seasons and just ignore the rest of his career. I've never seen a player get such a boost from just his peak play.

Let's ignore the fact that Hakeem got eliminated in the first round for 4 straight seasons (88-91) and his team didn't even reach the postseason the very next year in '92. Can you imagine a peak LeBron led team missing the postseason? ISH would have a field day.

Very DWade-like. Except Wade won his title early in his career.

[KBaller33]

MVP's are awards based on a vote by reporters. It doesn't really mean anything if you're comparing players, and it's well established how inflated LeBron's stats are(specifically his rebounding and FG%) because of how he guns to keep his stats pretty.

Kobe carrying the Lakers to 3 finals averaging 30/6/6, starting at the age LeBron is NOW, with major knee issues and a worse supporting cast against better competition in the West is way above LeBron's run with the Heat.

So if the MVP was voted by league executives or coaches instead of reporters do you think LeBron has less than 4 MVPs? I don't think so. He may even have more than that.

[russwest0]

So if the MVP was voted by league executives or coaches instead of reporters do you think LeBron has less than 4 MVPs?

Absolutely, just like how Peyton Manning would have less MVP's in the NFL if it were voted on by coaches or executives than players.

[Inferno]

Absolutely, just like how Peyton Manning would have less MVP's in the NFL if it were voted on by coaches or executives than players.

Who'd win over him in his years?

[1987_Lakers]

A prime Hakeem couldn't get past the 1st round for 5 straight seasons.:oldlol:

[KBaller33]

Absolutely, just like how Peyton Manning would have less MVP's in the NFL if it were voted on by coaches or executives than players.

2008-2009- Maybe Kobe takes this one, but I don't see it. LeBron had better stats and his team won one more game. Kobe faced stiffer competetion in the West, but LeBron had worse teammates. Plus LeBron finished second in DPOY voting, so the league was high on him that year.

2009-2010- Same as the year prior

2011-2012- His only competition was KD and KD wasn't the defender or playmaker he was today so that result wouldn't change.

2012-2013- KD improved his playmaking and defense, but he was a year away from being on LeBron's level. Melo was the only one to get a MVP vote from LeBron, so I doubt the league executives would've chose anyone else


So the years LeBron won MVP everyone pretty much agreed he deserved it. Not to mention 2011 where he had a great year but still had "The Decision" backlash and even 2005-2006 where some argue he should've won over Nash.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Only problem was somehow Hakeem's prime was pretty dang short

[eliteballer]

So if the MVP was voted by league executives or coaches instead of reporters do you think LeBron has less than 4 MVPs? I don't think so. He may even have more than that.

It doesn't matter who votes on it. It's an opinion.

It's not a game one, a point scored, a rebound grabbed, a series won. It's nothing tangible.

[Roundball_Rock]

Are you gonna ignore how badly Hakeem regressed during the '91 & '92 seasons? D-Rob & Ewing were head and shoulders ahead of Hakeem those years.

Keep nitpicking though.:oldlol:

Exactly. Also notice how LeBron is ripped for losing in the Finals (that is, finishing 2nd of the 30 teams) while Hakeem gets a pass for losing in the first round 8 teams and missing the playoffs in another year in his prime. Hakeem easily has the worst resume of any of the consensus top 11 players. Outside of 1993-1995, as you noted, he was viewed as comparable to Robinson and Ewing--and even in those years many people at the time had Robinson ahead of Hakeem. Only in retrospect is Hakeem viewed as much better than these players, especially vis-a-vis Robinson.


The problem with the Hakeem supporters is that they only look at the '94 & '95 seasons and just ignore the rest of his career. I've never seen a player get such a boost from just his peak play.

Let's ignore the fact that Hakeem got eliminated in the first round for 4 straight seasons (88-91) and his team didn't even reach the postseason the very next year in '92. Can you imagine a peak LeBron led team missing the postseason? ISH would have a field day.

Exactly. His entire record is judged by 2 seasons--seasons which were outliers. It isn't as if the Rockets were perennial contenders and finally broke through a la the 2011 Mavericks. They were a mid-pack team for many years in Hakeem's prime.

His lack of "help" is overrated. He had Clyde Drexler, a top 4-5 all-time SG in 95'. Otis Thorpe was not an all-star in 94' but he was only one season removed from being an all-star. Horry played very well. I think he put up 17/10 in the Finals in one of those years. People falsely equate Hakeem's runs with Duncan 03'. Hakeem had far more help than Duncan did. Furthermore, look at the top teams in 94':

Superstar plus a second all-star caliber player and good role players: Houston, New York, Chicago, San Antonio

No superstar: Indiana, Atlanta

Two elite players: Utah, Phoenix

So the odds were that most likely the champion that year would have a best player with little "help" relative to most years. People act as if Hakeem had a far inferior team to his peers. The Rockets were very comparable to the Knicks, for example. I would give the Knicks "cast" a slight edge--but only a slight one. Starks, Oakley, and Smith do not tower above Thorpe, Smith and Maxwell.

Hakeem does not belong in the same tier he is placed in, the Shaq/Duncan/LeBron/Kobe tier. He should be heading the next tier with West, Moses, Baylor and Dr. J.

[ArbitraryWater]

Here is some epic choking by Hakeem you probably never heard of...

No Robert Horry to save the day...

1988 1st round vs Utah Jazz: 5 Game series, Rockets are up 2-1. 1 win away from winning the series.

Game 4: Rockets up 21-10 after the 1st quarter, Jazz outscore the Rockets 83-50 in the next/last 3 quarters!
Rockets were just down 4 going into the 4th, Jazz outscore Rockets 28-10 in the 4th, while Hakeem for the game had 27 points on 10-29 35%....

Vintage Hakeem. A lot of points, a lot of shots, a lot of bricks....

Of course the Rockets lost the following deciding game 5.
Hakeem went sailing in the 1st round once again, like the previous year in 1987 when he was eliminated by the 39-43 Sonics, a team that couldn't even muster a winning record.

[Purch]

The big thing about Hakeem that goes untalked about, is that the Hakeem we think of from 93-96 was not the same payer Hakeem was for most of his career.

[ArbitraryWater]

The big thing about Hakeem that goes untalked about, is that the Hakeem we think of from 93-96 was not the same payer Hakeem was for most of his career.

Exactly... Back when he was Akeem, dude was a hot head too.

[Rocketswin2013]

Here is some epic choking by Hakeem you probably never heard of...

No Robert Horry to save the day...

1988 1st round vs Utah Jazz: 5 Game series, Rockets are up 2-1. 1 win away from winning the series.

Game 4: Rockets up 21-10 after the 1st quarter, Jazz outscore the Rockets 83-50 in the next/last 3 quarters!
Rockets were just down 4 going into the 4th, Jazz outscore Rockets 28-10 in the 4th, while Hakeem for the game had 27 points on 10-29 35%....

Vintage Hakeem. A lot of points, a lot of shots, a lot of bricks....

Of course the Rockets lost the following deciding game 5.
Hakeem went sailing in the 1st round once again, like the previous year in 1987 when he was eliminated by the 39-43 Sonics, a team that couldn't even muster a winning record.
:facepalm

Rookie Hakeem?

[Roundball_Rock]

The big thing about Hakeem that goes untalked about, is that the Hakeem we think of from 93-96 was not the same payer Hakeem was for most of his career.

Great point. Look at the all-NBA selections at center during that time.

1986: KAJ, Hakeem
1987: Hakeem, Moses
1988: Hakeem, Ewing
1989: Hakeem, Ewing, Parish
1990: Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson (rookie)
1991: Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem
1992: Robinson, Ewing, Daughtery
1993: Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson
1994: Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq
1995: Robinson, Shaq, Hakeem
1996: Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq
1997: Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq (Robinson missed all but 6 games)

So after Robinson's rookie year he was usually ahead of Hakeem. Ewing also placed ahead of Hakeem at times.

The above to me is the difference between Hakeem and the top 10 all-time. He was not considered the best player at his position for as long or in the way the others were in their primes. Even at his absolute peak there were many people who--at the time--thought Robinson was better.

Hakeem was a great player but, as you noted, people confuse peak Hakeem with Hakeem's total record. There is no other all-time great whose legacy is based so much on 2-3 years. Hakeem simply was not at that level for as long as the other top 10 all-time players were.

[Rocketswin2013]

And I don't think people understand how garbage his supporting cast was in those early years. And yes, worse than LeBron's Cleveland cast

[ArbitraryWater]

:facepalm

Rookie Hakeem?

No, nor 1988 or 1987 Hakeem is rookie Hakeem..

[Purch]

And I don't think people understand how garbage his supporting cast was in those early years. And yes, worse than LeBron's Cleveland cast
It wasn't just about supporting cast, he approached the game differently. His game wasn't nearly as refined at that point. Another poster described him as "a wild bull", and I think it's an accurate description of the games I've seen

[dubeta]

perennial 1st round losers should be locked out the top 10

olajuwon, kobe, jordan all out

[Rocketswin2013]

It wasn't just about supporting cast, he approached the game differently. His game wasn't nearly as refined at that point. Another poster described him as "a wild bull", and I think it's an accurate description of the games I've seen
Yeah undisciplined

[sportjames23]

perennial 1st round losers should be locked out the top 10

olajuwon, kobe, jordan all out


Perennial missing playoffs should be locked out of the top 10

olajuwon, kobe, lebron all out

[dubeta]

Perennial missing playoffs should be locked out of the top 10

olajuwon, kobe, lebron all out

jordan missed it too :oldlol:

[deja vu]

perennial 1st round losers should be locked out the top 10

olajuwon, kobe, jordan all out
6/6 >>> 2/5
U mad?

[juju151111]

Great point. Look at the all-NBA selections at center during that time.

1986: KAJ, Hakeem
1987: Hakeem, Moses
1988: Hakeem, Ewing
1989: Hakeem, Ewing, Parish
1990: Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson (rookie)
1991: Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem
1992: Robinson, Ewing, Daughtery
1993: Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson
1994: Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq
1995: Robinson, Shaq, Hakeem
1996: Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq
1997: Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq (Robinson missed all but 6 games)

So after Robinson's rookie year he was usually ahead of Hakeem. Ewing also placed ahead of Hakeem at times.

The above to me is the difference between Hakeem and the top 10 all-time. He was not considered the best player at his position for as long or in the way the others were in their primes. Even at his absolute peak there were many people who--at the time--thought Robinson was better.

Hakeem was a great player but, as you noted, people confuse peak Hakeem with Hakeem's total record. There is no other all-time great whose legacy is based so much on 2-3 years. Hakeem simply was not at that level for as long as the other top 10 all-time players were.
the only reason Hakeem didn't win more is his teammates were hot garbage. Dribble or Ewing was not better then him. Come playoffs time Hakeem tips them apart.

[juju151111]

Here is some epic choking by Hakeem you probably never heard of...

No Robert Horry to save the day...

1988 1st round vs Utah Jazz: 5 Game series, Rockets are up 2-1. 1 win away from winning the series.

Game 4: Rockets up 21-10 after the 1st quarter, Jazz outscore the Rockets 83-50 in the next/last 3 quarters!
Rockets were just down 4 going into the 4th, Jazz outscore Rockets 28-10 in the 4th, while Hakeem for the game had 27 points on 10-29 35%....

Vintage Hakeem. A lot of points, a lot of shots, a lot of bricks....

Of course the Rockets lost the following deciding game 5.
Hakeem went sailing in the 1st round once again, like the previous year in 1987 when he was eliminated by the 39-43 Sonics, a team that couldn't even muster a winning record.
All those 80s teams were garbage and they lose Ralph because he turned into a crack head. Hakeem in his 2nd season destroyed the Lakers and led his team to the finals.

[ralph_i_el]

Relative to each era, dipshit.
Then he would have been teamed up with Durant and cp3. We all watched the games yo can't make us believe that wade and bosh were franchise level players the past few years.

[HurricaneKid]

From age 25-29 Dream won a total of ZERO playoff series and missed the playoffs once.

That's his physical prime. Zero playoff series wins.

Career:
LeBron 33.8 playoff WS.
Hakeem 22.6 playoff WS.

In 94 the Rockets played the Knicks in the Finals. The Knicks second best player was famously bagging groceries just a few years before. In 95 Clyde Drexler led the Rockets in playoff WS. This whole "He didn't play with anyone" thing is ridiculous. Because A) no one else did either and B) because he DID, a HoF at that who contributed in enormous fashion.

Dream is horribly overrated. Robinson was better for at least 6 of the 8 years they played against one another. Dreams 2 years just happened to coincide with Jordan's departure.

[juju151111]

From age 25-29 Dream won a total of ZERO playoff series and missed the playoffs once.

That's his physical prime. Zero playoff series wins.

Career:
LeBron 33.8 playoff WS.
Hakeem 22.6 playoff WS.

In 94 the Rockets played the Knicks in the Finals. The Knicks second best player was famously bagging groceries just a few years before. In 95 Clyde Drexler led the Rockets in playoff WS. This whole "He didn't play with anyone" thing is ridiculous. Because A) no one else did either and B) because he DID, a HoF at that who contributed in enormous fashion.

Dream is horribly overrated. Robinson was better for at least 6 of the 8 years they played against one another. Dreams 2 years just happened to coincide with Jordan's departure.
Robinson was never better then Hakeem. Robinson is a RS player.