Here's what I don't get about attempts to diminish Jordan

[RRR3]

His statistics are clearly better than most players ever, and his playoff stats are equally ridiculous. It's kind of silly to me when people act like Jordan being amazing is some media driven narrative. Now I didn't watch him play, so I can't make the arguments many here can, but if you research his career, I don't see how you can't see a guy with probably the best case for GOAT or at least top 3-5.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Various trolls have various idols and so will say any kind of shit about other players to try and make some dumbass argument for their hero. And now you know.

[Roundball_Rock]

I don't see how you can't see a guy with probably the best case for GOAT or at least top 3-5.

Who doesn't have MJ in their top 5?

[KNOW1EDGE]

Who doesn't have MJ in their top 5?

Nobody smart, but multiple ISH posters have left him out of their top 5

[Legends66NBA7]

Who doesn't have MJ in their top 5?

John Salley most recently said he doesn't... like 2013.

But I'm pretty sure it's clear he has agenda. He put guys like Kevin McHale and Isiah Thomas over him. I forgot his reasoning, but yeah... it's weird because he said he was GOAT before the last couple of years.

[Roundball_Rock]

Anyone serious about them not thinking he is top 5?

There is a legitimate anti-MJ website out there and even the guy who runs it has MJ #5 all-time. http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/index.htm


#5) Michael Jordan

Strengths: Dominating scorer. No one was better at creating his own shot. He could attack the basket, pull up for the mid-range jump shot, or post up with a fade away. Legendary clutch plays in the age of prime time televised game were etched in cement. Before his 1993 retirement, he was probably the best defensive guard at roaming the passing lanes and one of the two best on-the-ball defenders at the guard position (I prefer Joe Dumars, but Jordan is at his level). He drew lots of defensive attention and had the ability to hit the open man. He had a rare, if unhealthy, competitive streak, and he dominated 4th quarters line no one.

Weaknesses: He couldn't play with drive-and-dish point guards, which are on about 95% of the teams. He was too turnover-prone and selfish to play the point guard (according to two of his coaches). He couldn't turn the Bulls and Wizards around like others on this list turned their teams around. When he retired, his impact was less than than the others on this list. Even in college, his team only met their expectations when he played a supporting role. He was extremely selfish - fighting with coaches about his scoring role and teammates who believed his points were more important to him than titles. He never proved his teams could be a big winner without the triangle offense, showing a limited ability to blend his game with different players and systems. If he plays on a team full of scorers, and he HAS to be leading scorer, how is that going to help his team win?

So even an admitted MJ "hater" has him #5.

[Sarcastic]

People who say Jordan is not the GOAT, is the same thing as people who still say the earth is flat.

[GimmeThat]

because people get tired of the fact that a large amount of people don't understand that 6 finals and 6 finals MVP was also contributed to the fact that a perfect situation as well as him taking full advantage of it came along.

If they did, they'd think, oh, right, Bill Russell

and throwing KAJ at those who don't.


good luck with that.

[played0ut]

I watched him play (more the 2nd 3-peat). And hand-to-heart he was spectacular. I believe he's the best slasher to ever play (admittedly haven't seen Dr. J or Nique). He really could get to the rim whenever he wanted to, and that's with handchecking and no defensive 3 second rule.


Just look at two possessions in a row here, at 7:50 (thk -smak for the link)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu92R-UR12o

Lays it in around Hakeem first play. 2nd play he dekes out Maxell, and lays it in again, with Hakeem directly right in his chest. There no slashers since (NONE) that I've seen that can get to the basket at will like MJ (without sprinting and almost casually weaving around defenders).


Lol I'll be honest those drives around/over defenders wouldn't be possible if he didn't have massive hands. Phil Jackson DID say that those hands allowed him to manoeuvre in ways other players can't.

[KBaller33]

Dr. J didn't have MJ in his top 5. He had a whole bunch of old timers, guys who played before the 80's.

[Cousin Oliver]

I think some of it is just the age of the poster. It is indicative of a larger problem, especially online of needing to elevate the current over the past. We get so caught up in the emotionalism of the moment that it clouds our judgment. We also enjoy feeling apart of something great so have a tendency to elevate things we have witnessed ourselves. This also works in reverse when people declare current things "the worst ever".

So for example people who saw Kobe and LeBron but were too young to watch Jordan play want to devalue Jordan. They do this in a couple ways. They either elevate Kobe or LeBron by just outright declaring them better or they argue that Jordan wasn't better than past players like Wilt or Russell in an attempt to bring Jordan back in the pack.

I'm not even saying you can't make an argument for other guys like Kareem (you can) as GOAT. But to say Jordan isn't top 3 is utterly ridiculous.

[played0ut]

Even in college, his team only met their expectations when he played a supporting role. He was extremely selfish - fighting with coaches about his scoring role and teammates who believed his points were more important to him than titles. He never proved his teams could be a big winner without the triangle offense, showing a limited ability to blend his game with different players and systems. If he plays on a team full of scorers, and he HAS to be leading scorer, how is that going to help his team win?

Yeah, that's true but that was more before PJ. He wouldn't trust his teammates and refused to pass. A coach told him before "There's no 'I' in team" and he replied with "There's an "I" in win," :oldlol:


He never proved his teams could be a big winner without the triangle offense, showing a limited ability to blend his game with different players and systems. If he plays on a team full of scorers, and he HAS to be leading scorer, how is that going to help his team win?

>That can't be held against him just because he was never put in a situation where he had to win with a different system.


And actually?


He has. :D Dream Team. He was the best player in their scrimmages-- and these weren't normal scrimmages AT ALL. :no: These 10 HOF'ers were brutally competitive and would go at each other foaming at the mouth. They refused to listen to Chuck Daly one time when he wanted to end practice because they wanted to see who would win.

And in the scrimmages/Olympic games it wasn't just Jordan hogging the ball either. It was just pure, perfect, simple basketball (albeit quicker and more efficient). Everybody doing the right cuts, passes, trusting each other. (Barkley ended up being lead scorer)

More than half the Dream Teamers have said that playing against each other was some of the most beautiful, best basketball they've ever played in their entire lives. :applause:

[Cousin Oliver]

Dr. J didn't have MJ in his top 5. He had a whole bunch of old timers, guys who played before the 80's.

He said his list was the same list he had when he was a teenager. So basically it was all based on nostalgia. Nothing wrong with that but it's not a list made with the brain, it's a list made with his 17 year old heart.

[played0ut]

Dr. J didn't have MJ in his top 5. He had a whole bunch of old timers, guys who played before the 80's.

In his defense he made the list way back when and never intended to change it.

[KBaller33]

In his defense he made the list way back when and never intended to change it.


It's so weird. Why would he never consider changing his list? It's like 40 years outdated :oldlol: Unless he meant his favorite players of all time.

[Cousin Oliver]

It's so weird. Why would he never consider changing his list? It's like 40 years outdated :oldlol: Unless he meant his favorite players of all time.


I think for him he treated it the way many do their favorite music. The music people fall in love with from 15-20 is often the music they think was the best when they're 50.

For him that was when he loved the game most, he probably associates that period with his coming of age as a man and a player. Like I said previously, it was a list based on nostalgia.

[navy]

It's so weird. Why would he never consider changing his list? It's like 40 years outdated :oldlol: Unless he meant his favorite players of all time.
People do it all the time. Im sure everyone in here when listing the best videogames, movies, or tv shows, will have something in there based on nostalgia and coming first more than actual merit.

[jrong]

People who say Jordan is not the GOAT, is the same thing as people who still say the earth is flat.

Exactly. There's nobody who has combined on-court dominance with championship results the way he has.

Yes, Bill Russell won 11, but an offensively dominant player beats a defensively dominant one every time.

Wilt didn't win enough.

Kareem is a center and didn't impact the game in as many ways.

Magic and Bird were surpassed by MJ over time.

Shaq was too lazy.

Timmy has gotten the most of what he is, and that's taken him to a top 10 career, but he still is what he is and isn't what he isn't.

Kobe was too selfish.

LeBron has too many holes in his resume.

Shall I continue?

MJ is, as his statue says, 'the best there ever was and the best there ever will be.'

[Yao Ming's Foot]

His statistics are clearly better than most players ever, and his playoff stats are equally ridiculous. It's kind of silly to me when people act like Jordan being amazing is some media driven narrative. Now I didn't watch him play, so I can't make the arguments many here can, but if you research his career, I don't see how you can't see a guy with probably the best case for GOAT or at least top 3-5.

You mean his statistics born out of the context of high pace offenses in an era of leaguewide defensive inefficiency.

:confusedshrug:

The fact that stating this simple truth will ruffle the feathers of Jordan mythologists just goes to show you the power of his media driven narrative that thrived unchecked for so long.

[Roundball_Rock]

The notion that MJ>>>>>anyone else is part of why there is a backlash against him...that and other mythology surrounding him, i.e. he won by himself and the non-stop media hype--even all these years later. :lol

[played0ut]

You mean his statistics born out of the context of high pace offenses in an era of leaguewide defensive inefficiency.

:confusedshrug:

The fact that stating this simple truth will ruffle the feathers of Jordan mythologists just goes to show you the power of his media driven narrative that thrived unchecked for so long.

.... are you sure their feathers weren't 'ruffled' because your point is terrible?
http://www.narutoforums.com/images/smilies/series2/funone3kk.gif


Yeah, the league has evolved and changed. But to nitpick to argue against rankings? If I wanted to I could spin any 'simply truth' against any era too!




Just like you're doing.






Here, watch:

>Shooters pre-79 did not have the opportunity of a 3 point line-- today's league scoring records are inflated and downplay the scoring capabilities of pre-79 players.

>Today's league favours quicker guards with the removal of hand-check and enables easier scoring due to 3 second defensive rule (which is ****ing retarded to me btw). Ergo you need to adjust (lower) Lebron's/Wade's/Rose/Westbrook's FG% to reflect the change.







Dude... the nitpicking. http://www.narutoforums.com/images/smilies/series2/funone3kk.gif

[navy]

>Today's league favours quicker guards with the removal of hand-check and enables easier scoring due to 3 second defensive rule (which is ****ing retarded to me btw). Ergo you need to adjust Lebron's/Wade's/Rose/Westbrook's FG% to reflect the change.






Lebron, Wade, Rose, and Westbrook have completely different FG%.

[played0ut]

Lebron, Wade, Rose, and Westbrook have completely different FG%.

Lol i'm picking slashers to make a point about open lanes. Their actual FG%, whatever it is isn't the issue here.

[Cold soul]

MJ is not only the GOAT basketball player but maybe the greatest sport athlete in history.

[RRR3]

Lol i'm picking slashers to make a point about open lanes. Their actual FG%, whatever it is isn't the issue here.
LeBron is a far better shooter than the other three

[Yao Ming's Foot]

.... are you sure their feathers weren't 'ruffled' because your point is terrible?
http://www.narutoforums.com/images/smilies/series2/funone3kk.gif


Yeah, the league has evolved and changed. But to nitpick to argue against rankings? If I wanted to I could spin any 'simply truth' against any era too!




Just like you're doing.






Here, watch:

>Shooters pre-79 did not have the opportunity of a 3 point line-- today's league scoring records are inflated and downplay the scoring capabilities of pre-79 players.

>Today's league favours quicker guards with the removal of hand-check and enables easier scoring due to 3 second defensive rule (which is ****ing retarded to me btw). Ergo you need to adjust (lower) Lebron's/Wade's/Rose/Westbrook's FG% to reflect the change.







Dude... the nitpicking. http://www.narutoforums.com/images/smilies/series2/funone3kk.gif


Naruto forums?

:facepalm

[navy]

Lol i'm picking slashers to make a point about open lanes. Their actual FG%, whatever it is isn't the issue here.
Yeah, but you didnt really make a point. Lebron and Wade have higher or similar FG from slashing to Jordan and Rose and Westbrook have lower percentages.

[played0ut]

Yeah, but you didnt really make a point. Lebron and Wade have higher or similar FG from slashing than Jordan and Rose and Westbrook have lower percentages.

I did. You just missed it.



He's saying Jordan's stats are only high because of his era's high pace/defense

i.e, his PPG adjusted would be -2PPG


If i go by his reasoning,


I'm saying Rose/Westbrook/Wade/Lebron's FG% are only high, due to open lanes/no hand check enabling easier slashing

i.e, each of their FG% would be .02% - .08% lower, depending on how often they slash

[played0ut]

Naruto forums?

:facepalm

and?


Are you going somewhere with this or are you just wasting bandwidth

[GimmeThat]

MJ is, as his statue says, 'the best there ever was and the best there ever will be.'

you know how I know you're a dinosaur?

[deja vu]

Anti-MJ trolls often say that Jordan faced weak competition and weak athletes.

They don't realize that Jordan played against Kobe, Duncan and Shaq who were still dominating well into the 2000s. LMAO

Well most of these trolls were teens anyway so I'll give them a pass.

[Bless Mathews]

People who say Jordan is not the GOAT, is the same thing as people who still say the earth is flat.

Game. Set. Match.

[Graviton]

I don't know how you can discredit...

10 Scoring titles
5 MVPs
1xDPOY
6/6 Rings and 6 FMVPs
14x All Star
10x All NBA 1st team
9x All D 1st team
2x Olympic Gold Medal
NCAA National Champion

[Psileas]

Exactly. There's nobody who has combined on-court dominance with championship results the way he has.

Yes, Bill Russell won 11, but an offensively dominant player beats a defensively dominant one every time.

Wilt didn't win enough.

Kareem is a center and didn't impact the game in as many ways.

Magic and Bird were surpassed by MJ over time.

Shaq was too lazy.

Timmy has gotten the most of what he is, and that's taken him to a top 10 career, but he still is what he is and isn't what he isn't.

Kobe was too selfish.

LeBron has too many holes in his resume.

Shall I continue?

MJ is, as his statue says, 'the best there ever was and the best there ever will be.'

Maybe, but there's also nobody whose combination of dominance and winning matches Russell's either or Kareem's or even Wilt's, despite the relatively few titles. The point is, there is no reason to believe that, beyond a doubt, Jordan's combination has to be the best there ever was. It is up there, but how exactly can someone prove that this is the best?
If an offensively dominant player beats a defensively dominant one every time, shouldn't this be the case with Wilt vs Russell, as well?
And I disagree that Kareem didn't impact the game as much, except if you add media promotion and fame. They changed the rules to hinder his dominance in the NCAA - and still failed miserably, since only a fool would believe that banning the dunk would have a wide effect on a player that talented. He was as all-around a center as there ever was, led the league in 4 different categories (and was very good at his position in 2 more), you could trust him to take the last shot or even the last FT's.

[3ball]

Jordan did a lot of stuff no one else did... just look below at the Top 15 Hanging Jumpshots by MJ... who else does that?


Top 15 Hanging Jumpshots by MJ (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40750321#p40750321)


Top 15 MJ Dunks Over Multiple Contesting Defenders (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40414797#p40414797)


Partial Collection of MJ Dunks Over All-Time Great Centers (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40382395#p40382395)


People just forget the things he used to do that made him go 6 for 6, etc, etc - they think it was luck or something.

[played0ut]

Maybe, but there's also nobody whose combination of dominance and winning matches Russell's either or Kareem's or even Wilt's, despite the relatively few titles. The point is, there is no reason to believe that, beyond a doubt, Jordan's combination has to be the best there ever was. It is up there, but how exactly can someone prove that this is the best?


People's GOAT lists are partly subjective based on whichever aspect of the game they value more

[Soundwave]

It's part of the stupid hipster culture that kids think makes them unique, when in actuality it just makes them stupid. It's goes basically like this.

Make any kind of generic statement that most people agree upon, ie: The Beatles Were A Great Band (just a random example). They will them take that and run it like this:

Stage 1: Denial - The Beatles? I never heard of them, why's this guy so enthusiastic abouth. Doesn't he know enthusiasm is totally uncool now?

Stage 2: Retarded Rationalization - LOL, the Beatles couldn't even hear themselves play live, so basically they were just lip syncing all the time. Overrated.

Stage 3: Full Retard Mode - The Beatles weren't even that great. I can name 100 bands better today. They just sucked.

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/24/9b/ae/249baef1852eedf252887ff855895b57.jpg

That and Jordan takes the brunt of frustration from angry LeBron/Kobe stans. They can't blame their own guy and they can't deal with failure. So they need someone to blame, and Jordan's career is so lilly perfect that it drives them crazy, it's unfair to them, so they take shots at it and try to rationalize it in their mind (ie: he couldn't have been that good, no one could be that good, it has to be ESPN that created him ... yes ... yes that makes sense in my brain).

Granted Kobe-Stans have chilled out over the last two years and become a lot more humble. At least compared to before. In 5 years Bran Stans will be in the same place getting hounded by Wiggins Stans or whoever the new hot sh*t is.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Anti-MJ trolls often say that Jordan faced weak competition and weak athletes.

They don't realize that Jordan played against Kobe, Duncan and Shaq who were still dominating well into the 2000s. LMAO

Well most of these trolls were teens anyway so I'll give them a pass.

While its not true that he faced weak competition and weak athletes (the talent base is more or less the same nowadays), its definitely not true he was dominating Kobe, Duncan, and Shaq in the 2000s. In his wizard days Jordan was pretty much just chucking it up

[Soundwave]

While its not true that he faced weak competition and weak athletes (the talent base is more or less the same nowadays), its definitely not true he was dominating Kobe, Duncan, and Shaq in the 2000s. In his wizard days Jordan was pretty much just chucking it up

Jordan played in the greatest big man era ever ... Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, DRob, Zo, Mutombo, etc. etc. If Jordan didn't play in that era it would be known as the era of the bigs, but his success just overshadowed everything else.

[poido123]

It's part of the stupid hipster culture that kids think makes them unique, when in actuality it just makes them stupid. It's goes basically like this.

Make any kind of generic statement that most people agree upon, ie: The Beatles Were A Great Band (just a random example). They will them take that and run it like this:

Stage 1: Denial - The Beatles? I never heard of them, why's this guy so enthusiastic abouth. Doesn't he know enthusiasm is totally uncool now?

Stage 2: Retarded Rationalization - LOL, the Beatles couldn't even hear themselves play live, so basically they were just lip syncing all the time. Overrated.

Stage 3: Full Retard Mode - The Beatles weren't even that great. I can name 100 bands better today. They just sucked.

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/24/9b/ae/249baef1852eedf252887ff855895b57.jpg

That and Jordan takes the brunt of frustration from angry LeBron/Kobe stans. They can't blame their own guy and they can't deal with failure. So they need someone to blame, and Jordan's career is so lilly perfect that it drives them crazy, it's unfair to them, so they take shots at it and try to rationalize it in their mind (ie: he couldn't have been that good, no one could be that good, it has to be ESPN that created him ... yes ... yes that makes sense in my brain).

Granted Kobe-Stans have chilled out over the last two years and become a lot more humble. At least compared to before. In 5 years Bran Stans will be in the same place getting hounded by Wiggins Stans or whoever the new hot sh*t is.

:applause:

Repped for the effort in this post.

It sums it up totally. We are just old fools that know nothing :rolleyes:

[3ball]

While its not true that he faced weak competition and weak athletes (the talent base is more or less the same nowadays), its definitely not true he was dominating Kobe, Duncan, and Shaq in the 2000s. In his wizard days Jordan was pretty much just chucking it up

He's talking about in 1996-1998...

that's when a mid-30's Jordan was considered the best player in the world by everybody, AHEAD of Shaq (who had been to the Finals in 1995 and was in his 6th season in 1998)... In contrast, when Shaq went to the Lakers from 2000-2004, Kobe was widely considered INFERIOR to Shaq.

In 1997 and 1998, Jordan caught Duncan's first and second seasons - He never got to play Duncan in the playoffs, but Jordan did defeat Utah in 1998 and that Utah team had beaten a 56-win, Popovich/Duncan/Robinson Spurs team in 5 games in the Western Semis, and then they SWEPT Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers super-team (Shaq, Eddie Jones, Van Exel, and Kobe, to go along with Elden Campbell, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher and Rick Fox)... Jordan beat that Utah team twice.

Here's a decent video quality highlights of MJ vs Popovich and Duncan's Spurs in 1998 regular season.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQePkBnD0vo

From that game, here's 35-year old Jordan still with hangtime, making it look easy over contesting Robinson and Duncan.

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Finishing_Over_Duncan_a_10e37bb5b61b627dcd2 e1170b8ae854f.gif


Here's a much younger Jordan dunking on Robinson and getting hit in the face... More dunks of Jordan over Robinson and other all-time great centers here (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40382395#p40382395).

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Hard_on_Robinson_f5b81b99e4f7c61e02dbac531e d53f11.gif


as a 40-year old, Jordan dunked on Duncan in the all-star game..

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_Dunks_On_Tim_Du_c637e9b63274127bb96 6a04f34e07da9.gif

[Roundball_Rock]

Maybe, but there's also nobody whose combination of dominance and winning matches Russell's either or Kareem's or even Wilt's, despite the relatively few titles. The point is, there is no reason to believe that, beyond a doubt, Jordan's combination has to be the best there ever was. It is up there, but how exactly can someone prove that this is the best?
If an offensively dominant player beats a defensively dominant one every time, shouldn't this be the case with Wilt vs Russell, as well?
And I disagree that Kareem didn't impact the game as much, except if you add media promotion and fame. They changed the rules to hinder his dominance in the NCAA - and still failed miserably, since only a fool would believe that banning the dunk would have a wide effect on a player that talented. He was as all-around a center as there ever was, led the league in 4 different categories (and was very good at his position in 2 more), you could trust him to take the last shot or even the last FT's.

:applause:

MJ stans trigger a backlash with the mythology around MJ. He is one of several GOAT candidates. People act as if he is basketball's version of Gretzky, though. That is a "clear GOAT" and even in that case some people argue Lemieux as the BOAT, even if his GOAT case is weak due to health issues.

[juju151111]

You mean his statistics born out of the context of high pace offenses in an era of leaguewide defensive inefficiency.

:confusedshrug:

The fact that stating this simple truth will ruffle the feathers of Jordan mythologists just goes to show you the power of his media driven narrative that thrived unchecked for so long.
You Ethered so much it's a wonder why you keep coming back

[rmt]

I've been watching the NBA since 1977 and IMO, MJ exceeds the gaudy stats. There's just something about the competitive spirit, the cockiness, the confidence - that no one else I've seen has. Combine the game with the mental and he's GOAT to me.

I've also been privileged to live through the heyday of tennis too - Connors, Borg, McEnroe, Sampras and hands-down, Roger Federer is the best I've seen play - just the best combination of talent, technical (strokes) and movement. If he was mentally strong, he'd be unbeatable.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You Ethered so much it's a wonder why you keep coming back

Link?

[Mr Exlax]

I hate MJ but I have him at about #3 or #4. And that's impact on the court. Who I'd build around type of thing.

[ILLsmak]

People who say Jordan is not the GOAT, is the same thing as people who still say the earth is flat.

Nahhh.

I mean, are you gonna say Shakespeare is the best writer? Leonardo is the best artist? Einstein is the smartest man to live? That is what everyone says, but it's not true. It's true enough that you'd have to be kind of a douchebag to confront someone on it... but I think it's very arguable that MJ is on a tier above all other NBA players. Seriously, saying someone is GOAT is like saying you got... MJ tier then the rest and that's BS. MJ is top tier, sure, but it is indistinguishable when it comes to the greatest players.

Kareem, Bill Russell, and Larry Bird (lol sorry I still feel that way) all have an argument to be GOAT. Larry's argument is that he didn't have that dude who was a 1st or 2nd tier great on his squad and still played amazing in a stacked era.

Magic, IMO, doesn't... Wilt IMO doesn't.

What MJ has is the most modern dominance. Peerless dominance, but I saw you saying Shaq dominated a weak era. MJ's era was just as 'weak' as Shaq's if you look at when he was winning.

-Smak

[played0ut]

I've been watching the NBA since 1977 and IMO, MJ exceeds the gaudy stats. There's just something about the competitive spirit, the cockiness, the confidence - that no one else I've seen has. Combine the game with the mental and he's GOAT to me.


may i ask how old you are

[played0ut]

I've been watching the NBA since 1977 and IMO, MJ exceeds the gaudy stats. There's just something about the competitive spirit, the cockiness, the confidence - that no one else I've seen has. Combine the game with the mental and he's GOAT to me.


may i ask how old you are

[rmt]

may i ask how old you are

51. Why?

[played0ut]

51. Why?

Watching since '77 is a mighty long time. Wouldn't expect many ISH posters to be above 25, actually.

[Nevaeh]

I think for him he treated it the way many do their favorite music. The music people fall in love with from 15-20 is often the music they think was the best when they're 50.

For him that was when he loved the game most, he probably associates that period with his coming of age as a man and a player. Like I said previously, it was a list based on nostalgia.


A lot of truth in this statement. Being 41 now, I reflect back on that 15-20 year old pocket of time where everything in life seemed to "click", and the music and culture from that era just coincided perfectly. However, using music as an example, the case can be made that the artist promoted back then had a bit more positive passion in what they were doing, when compared to today's "get paid at all cost" type of artists that we see today.

As for MJ, I give big props to the younger generation who actually take the time to do the research themselves about Jordan's game and coming to the same conclusion about him that us older cats did, without the benefit of nostalgia or media influence.

Greatness is greatness no matter what generation it comes from. The fact that we now have instant access to stats, data, full games and video to back up how great MJ was makes most of these haters look straight silly IMO. But hey, they're entertaining too so....

:cheers:

[kshutts1]

Who doesn't have MJ in their top 5?
I don't have MJ in my top 5, but rather my first tier. Includes 8 players.

MJ
Wilt
Russell
Shaq
Kareem
Bird
Magic
Oscar

Edit: I've considered moving Magic to the second tier. Done it a couple times and it felt weird.

[Asukal]

I don't know how you can discredit...

10 Scoring titles
5 MVPs
1xDPOY
6/6 Rings and 6 FMVPs
14x All Star
10x All NBA 1st team
9x All D 1st team
2x Olympic Gold Medal
NCAA National Champion

I believe the haters call it "mythology". :oldlol:

[kshutts1]

I don't know how you can discredit...

10 Scoring titles
5 MVPs
1xDPOY
6/6 Rings and 6 FMVPs
14x All Star
10x All NBA 1st team
9x All D 1st team
2x Olympic Gold Medal
NCAA National Champion
Not trying to discredit Jordan; he's amazing. But the bolded are actually team accomplishments.

With all-star appearances... not sure when fan voting had an input there? But regardless, that's hardly a measure of greatness. Big deal. That means Jordan was a top 20 player 14 times. Show longevity of being great. But by no means does it show him as the GOAT.

[Soundwave]

Not trying to discredit Jordan; he's amazing. But the bolded are actually team accomplishments.

With all-star appearances... not sure when fan voting had an input there? But regardless, that's hardly a measure of greatness. Big deal. That means Jordan was a top 20 player 14 times. Show longevity of being great. But by no means does it show him as the GOAT.

The stat sheet really only tells 1/3 of Jordan's story anyway.

Things like beating Magic for the first championship, winning the 4th on father's day after coming back, game winner to ice the Cavs in '89, sweeping the Pistons (finally) in '91, flu game, game winner to win the title as his last shot with the Bulls ... stuff like that is probably what makes his career that much more memorable.

[Asukal]

Not trying to discredit Jordan; he's amazing. But the bolded are actually team accomplishments.

With all-star appearances... not sure when fan voting had an input there? But regardless, that's hardly a measure of greatness. Big deal. That means Jordan was a top 20 player 14 times. Show longevity of being great. But by no means does it show him as the GOAT.

Remind us again how many rings the bulls won before and after Jordan played for them? :rolleyes:

[dubeta]

Dominated weak era

if he's GOAT then Mikan is top 3 :facepalm

[Soundwave]

Dominated weak era

if he's GOAT then Mikan is top 3 :facepalm

Says the guy who looks up to Bran, who adamantly says Jordan is GOAT and wears no.23 because Jordan (Bran's words here) "is the greatest". :lol

[Asukal]

Dominated weak era

if he's GOAT then Mikan is top 3 :facepalm

And lebron is 2/5. :banana:

[dubeta]

And lebron is 2/5. :banana:

kobe's 2/7 shaqs 3/6 and duncan is 3/6 as well so what?

[kshutts1]

Remind us again how many rings the bulls won before and after Jordan played for them? :rolleyes:
I don't see how that's relevant. But we all know the answer is zero.

[Asukal]

kobe's 2/7 shaqs 3/6 and duncan is 3/6 as well so what?

OHHHHH! He mad. :oldlol:

[Asukal]

I don't see how that's relevant. But we all know the answer is zero.

:biggums:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

kobe's 2/7 shaqs 3/6 and duncan is 3/6 as well so what?

LeBron fans and their 5th grade education :oldlol: Lets help them out:

Kobe and the Lakers have made 7 finals, Kobe and the Lakers have won 5 of them.

Shaq and the teams he's played for have made 6 finals, Shaq and the teams he's played for have won 4 of them.

Duncan and the Spurs have made 6 finals, Duncan and the Spurs have won 5 of them.

Boilded down:
Duncan - 5/6
Kobe - 5/7
Shaq - 4/6

5/6, 5/7, 4/6 > 2/5

[3ball]

Here's Jordan at 38 years old in his first meeting with Garnett..

From the 4:00 minute mark until the 5:20 mark, Jordan goes 1-on-1 versus Garnett 5 successive possessions in a row and scores each time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=embqhggoep4

At this point in the season, Jordan was averaging 25ppg, 5, and 5 (1 of 3 guys in the league doing that), before his knees got worse.

[dubeta]

LeBron fans and their 5th grade education :oldlol: Lets help them out:

Kobe and the Lakers have made 7 finals, Kobe and the Lakers have won 5 of them.

Shaq and the teams he's played for have made 6 finals, Shaq and the teams he's played for have won 4 of them.

Duncan and the Spurs have made 6 finals, Duncan and the Spurs have won 5 of them.

Boilded down:
Duncan - 5/6
Kobe - 5/7
Shaq - 4/6

5/6, 5/7, 4/6 > 2/5

Horry 7/7 u fail

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Horry 7/7 u fail

Horry isn't relevant to this discussion. Are you conceding? :confusedshrug:

[dubeta]

Horry isn't relevant to this discussion. Are you conceding? :confusedshrug:

:facepalm

Horry and the teams he played for are 7 out of 7 in NBA championships, im using your logic

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

:facepalm

Horry and the teams he played for are 7 out of 7 in NBA championships, im using your logic

My logic pertains to winning championships, the same logic the poster you quoted was using.

Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan were all-star caliber players when they won their rings. Horry was not.

Damn this is like target practice :oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Here's Jordan at 38 years old in his first meeting with Garnett..

From the 4:00 minute mark until the 5:20 mark, Jordan goes 1-on-1 versus Garnett 5 successive possessions in a row and scores each time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=embqhggoep4

At this point in the season, Jordan was averaging 25ppg, 5, and 5 (1 of 3 guys in the league doing that), before his knees got worse.

You realize that at Garnett's age Jordan was still sleeping in a bunk bed and playing against other kids right??

[jstern]

Bottom line, people, human kind is very limited in what it can process, especially for things that they never saw. People tend to focus on one thing at a time, and not the whole picture, while dismissing the things that contradict their point of view.

Another thing is being in the moment. Remember the thread saying that Lebron returning to Cleveland was a bigger moment than the Jordan icon returning to the NBA. They're so lost in the current moment, that even they though they weren't alive then, they are convinced that this big moment in their life is huge, much bigger than anything else. How many people would dare say that now?

Reminds me of watching a game, Reggie Miller vs Penny, clutch shots after clutch shots. At the time, that was really big, seeing it live. Must be one of the most unbelievable moments ever in the NBA, meanwhile if you show it now, after the fact, not in the moment, it's like whatever. I'm always reminded of that when I see a young person getting really excited after someone hits a game winning shot. To me it's just another game winner, to a young person, it's pure excitement and in awe of the player who hit the shot.

It's perspective too. One of the many things that I've seen from teens is putting down big time players that played before their time, as if they were average players. Players who were superstars, but never won a championship. That's always been amazing, how a player could be at the top of world, admired for his ability, and then they are looked at as not being that good by people who never saw them play, and using it as an excuse as to why their era are better. An example of that would be Durant if he never wins a championship, I could clearly see teenagers 15 years from now saying, "Who did Lebron beat, Durant?" In a he's a scrub tone. That's the one thing that always interest me, that change in perspective.

[Straight_Ballin]

His statistics are clearly better than most players ever, and his playoff stats are equally ridiculous. It's kind of silly to me when people act like Jordan being amazing is some media driven narrative. Now I didn't watch him play, so I can't make the arguments many here can, but if you research his career, I don't see how you can't see a guy with probably the best case for GOAT or at least top 3-5.

Holy shit!?!? Never watched Jordan play and not being a bitter little bitch that feels deprived for having been born too late to witness his airness?

This could be an ISH first.

[kshutts1]

:biggums:
I can think of no legitimate argument that would say that since the Bulls before Jordan, made up of completely different people, and the Bulls after Jordan, also made up of completely different people, didn't win a title that Jordan = GOAT. There is, literally, zero relevance to that argument.

If I want to "stoop" to your level, the Bulls also never won a title without Pippen. So is he also the GOAT?

Dick Bradley, Bill Bradley, Dave Debusschere, Walt Frazier and Willis Reed are also the GOAT, since the Knicks never won a title without them.

So, now that we've put that completely irrelevant argument to rest... Those bolded items were team accomplishments. Last I checked, it's literally impossible to win a title or a FMVP or an MVP on a terrible team.

[jstern]

OP joined ISH 3 years ago today. Happy anniversary.

[Asukal]

I can think of no legitimate argument that would say that since the Bulls before Jordan, made up of completely different people, and the Bulls after Jordan, also made up of completely different people, didn't win a title that Jordan = GOAT. There is, literally, zero relevance to that argument.

If I want to "stoop" to your level, the Bulls also never won a title without Pippen. So is he also the GOAT?

Dick Bradley, Bill Bradley, Dave Debusschere, Walt Frazier and Willis Reed are also the GOAT, since the Knicks never won a title without them.

So, now that we've put that completely irrelevant argument to rest... Those bolded items were team accomplishments. Last I checked, it's literally impossible to win a title or a FMVP or an MVP on a terrible team.

Ok genius, according to your logic there is no GOAT basketball player because the game is a team game. :hammerhead:

We should disregard a player's role on his team in winning championships since according to you it is a team game. Russell's 11 chips means nothing so he should be far down the all time list since his stats aren't very impressive. Your logic. :applause:

[Young X]

Jordan and maybe KAJ are the only players where you have to use things outside of their control to discredit them. To this day I've never heard a solid argument against MJ's GAME on the court.

With Russell you could say he wasn't dominant enough offensively, with Wilt you could say his numbers dropped in the playoffs, with Bird you could say he had a few underwhelming playoff runs/not enough longevity, with Magic you could say he didn't play defense good enough/not enough longevity, etc.

With MJ what could you say? He played in a weak era? Didn't win fast enough when he played with garbage teammates (just like everybody else)? His media popularity? What does that have to do with how he played on the court?

Only real thing you could bring up is his ****ups/chokes in the '95 Magic series and he still averaged 31/7/4. Elite on both sides of the court, never lost with HCA, almost never had bad series, good longevity, the best playoff career and possibly the best regular season career also. How do you really argue against that?

[scandisk_]

Jordan and maybe KAJ are the only players where you have to use things outside of their control to discredit them. To this day I've never heard a solid argument against MJ's GAME on the court.

With Russell you could say he wasn't dominant enough offensively, with Wilt you could say his numbers dropped in the playoffs, with Bird you could say he had a few underwhelming playoff runs/not enough longevity, with Magic you could say he didn't play defense good enough/not enough longevity, etc.

With MJ what could you say? He played in a weak era? Didn't win fast enough when he played with garbage teammates (just like everybody else)? The media popularity? What does that have to do with how he played on the court?

KAJ had it all. Rings, Stats, Accolades, Intagibles, Longevity, etc etc. Dude was a straight up beast ever since his early days. HS champ, college champ, NBA champ. :bowdown:

[Roundball_Rock]

With Russell you could say he wasn't dominant enough offensively, with Wilt you could say his numbers dropped in the playoffs, with Bird you could say he

The Wilt stuff also is without any context. A lot of that was due to his role on the team changing, a lot of his runs being when he was no longer a big scorer and because a lot of his series were against the GOAT defender.

[SamuraiSWISH]

You realize that at Garnett's age Jordan was still sleeping in a bunk bed and playing against other kids right??
Um KG was 25 in 2002. Getting TORCHED by near 39 year old Jordan. Keep trying to discredit though, troll.

[played0ut]

You realize that at Garnett's age Jordan was still sleeping in a bunk bed and playing against other kids right??


Um KG was 25 in 2002. Getting TORCHED by near 39 year old Jordan. Keep trying to discredit though, troll.

heh Lol.

Though tbh there's no all-time great offensive player that can be stopped by any one person. Slowed down, worn down maybe. But that's it.


He torched him good though. Dem hands. Elite skill and athleticism too, but those hands really make a difference-- allows him to 'weave' around bigs in the air without losing control of the ball.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu92R-UR12o

@ 7:45 watch two plays.

Lays it in with HAkeem Olajuwon contesting him. Chest to chest too. :bowdown:

[TheCorporation]

People who say Jordan is not the GOAT, is the same thing as people who still say the earth is flat.

:oldlol: :oldlol: :applause:

[G-train]

People who say Jordan is not the GOAT, is the same thing as people who still say the earth is flat.

I personally wouldn't go that far.
But he is the best player of his era and the best I have seen since the mid 80's.
TBH Kobe and Lebron aren't far off him, coming from my perspective of seeing them all play 100's of times... not just highlight reels with 'I believe I can fly' playing in the background.
But not sure how anyone can say that he was better than Wilt Chamberlain, or Bill Russell (who was much more than a defender).
Not sure how you can prove he was better than Jerry West or Oscar.
It was a different league, and too many people use titles as reasoning for Jordan elevating over other great players, but team success is too hard to factor in current eras let alone previous ones.

[kshutts1]

Ok genius, according to your logic there is no GOAT basketball player because the game is a team game. :hammerhead:

We should disregard a player's role on his team in winning championships since according to you it is a team game. Russell's 11 chips means nothing so he should be far down the all time list since his stats aren't very impressive. Your logic. :applause:
Bolded is correct, anyway.

Who am I to sift through all of the positional, team make-up, and era differences and proclaim one person better than the rest?

Once the on-the-court dominance is there, and basketball abilities are included.. you know, the easy(er) stuff, there are just so many factors. Russell and Jordan were asked to do COMPLETELY different things, playing totally different positions in eras so different that they bear almost no resemblance to one another. That is akin to comparing apples to oranges.
Hell, Wilt and Russell should be an easy comparison, since they played the same position in the same era, but not everyone can even agree on that! Now you're saying we should all agree when we stretch the time line and change the positions?

You can ask me who's better between Jordan and Kobe (Jordan, by far), Chris Paul and Russell Westbrook (Westbrook), or any other combination of players that played in, basically, the same era of basketball and similar positions. But once we start throwing other variables in there, it's so difficult to know.

There are a handful of us on here that just don't do all time rankings. And I have to assume that the others don't do it for basically the same reason as the above. I'll rank them in tiers, but I just can't put a numerical order to it.

[BoutPractice]

Aside from statistics, two things are clear: when you tell someone "you're the Michael Jordan of (whatever)" they instantly understand what you mean, and if only 5 athletes have to be remembered from the 20th century he will be one of them (also you can argue several of them but he would probably be the only unanimous selection).

And keep in mind that athletes usually aren't remembered historically, save from semi-mythical figures like Milo of Croton from Ancient Greek times (who was sort of the Wilt Chamberlain of his time, famous for having allegedly carried a bull on his shoulders). The 20th century being the American century could be an exception, so there's a good chance that Jordan will be one of a very, very select list of athletes from the whole of human history up to this point.

[GimmeThat]

Aside from statistics, two things are clear: when you tell someone "you're the Michael Jordan of (whatever)" they instantly understand what you mean, and if only 5 athletes have to be remembered from the 20th century he will be one of them (also you can argue several of them but he would probably be the only unanimous selection).



I guess people don't remember those who win by grace, or those won with signatures.

[Knoe Itawl]

Jordan and maybe KAJ are the only players where you have to use things outside of their control to discredit them. To this day I've never heard a solid argument against MJ's GAME on the court.

With Russell you could say he wasn't dominant enough offensively, with Wilt you could say his numbers dropped in the playoffs, with Bird you could say he had a few underwhelming playoff runs/not enough longevity, with Magic you could say he didn't play defense good enough/not enough longevity, etc.

With MJ what could you say? He played in a weak era? Didn't win fast enough when he played with garbage teammates (just like everybody else)? His media popularity? What does that have to do with how he played on the court?

Only real thing you could bring up is his ****ups/chokes in the '95 Magic series and he still averaged 31/7/4. Elite on both sides of the court, never lost with HCA, almost never had bad series, good longevity, the best playoff career and possibly the best regular season career also. How do you really argue against that?

I think this really sums it up for me. Haters really have to twist themselves in knots, and come up with all kinds of nonsense to discredit Jordan. Most logical people see right through that though. In all honestly, unless you're a Jordan detractor (not to be confused with someone who is allegedly looking objectively at the issue and commenting based on that), you really can't discredit a career that great.

The only people I usually see attempting to do so are people who just flat out don't like him. I've never seen anyone neutral go to the lengths of say a Roundball Rock to do so. This lets you know that doing so is agenda driven, as opposed to some sort of mission to expose the "truth the mythologists don't want you to know". These people dislike Jordan, for whatever reason, and hate the fact that he's considered GOAT (not because he doesn't deserve it, but because they dislike him) and so they feel the need to attempt to knock his career because of it.

They could be Kobe stans (the most egregious ones), Lebron stans (creeping up on Kobe stans in obnoxiousness, but still a ways to go) or just people that disliked Jordan.

[3ball]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Cradle_From_Almost_FT_L_be1e0eee2d4613049ae 82e8600cc58c1.gif