Where Does Dr. J Rank All-Time

[LAZERUSS]

Including his ABA seasons, and whatever value you place in them...

[G.O.A.T]

13 to 20 depending on you're thoughts on the ABA and what his achievements there mean.

[LAZERUSS]

13 to 20 depending on you're thoughts on the ABA and what his achievements there mean.

He was at his peak in his ABA seasons, so it is a tough call.

I think anywhere from 9th to 15th...

[Marchesk]

He was at his peak in his ABA seasons, so it is a tough call.

I think anywhere from 9th to 15th...

How would you rank him defensively? I ask because I saw one poster with Pippen at 15th. And who would you take between ABA Dr J and peak Elgin?

[JellyBean]

I have Dr. J ranked 20th on my all time greatest NBA players list.

[WillC]

I have Dr. J ranked 20th on my all time greatest NBA players list.

Then your list is flawed.

[coin24]

Above wilt

[LAZERUSS]

Above wilt

So you have Dr. J at #1 then.

[IllegalD]

He was at his peak in his ABA seasons, so it is a tough call.

I think anywhere from 9th to 15th...

With ONE sidekick ring riding the coattails of Moses Malone? :roll:

Lets be real, noone but you counts the ABA championships.

[IllegalD]

Guys that are definitely above Dr J:

Jordan
Kareem
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Magic
Bird
Russell
Wilt
Moses Malone
Wade
Isiah Thomas
Hakeem Olajuwon
LeBron
Dirk
KG
Oscar Robertson

that leaves him out of the Top 15...

[GimmeThat]

With ONE sidekick ring riding the coattails of Moses Malone? :roll:

Lets be real, noone but you counts the ABA championships.


then why post if you're not going to go through the effort to count them?

[LeBird]

Above wilt

LOL, but does that mean Dr J is top 10 for you?

[WillC]

Guys that are definitely above Dr J:

Jordan
Kareem
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Magic
Bird
Russell
Wilt
Moses Malone
Wade
Isiah Thomas
Hakeem Olajuwon
LeBron
Dirk
KG
Oscar Robertson

that leaves him out of the Top 15...

LMAO at Wade and Isiah being 'definitely' above Dr J :pimp:

[coin24]

So you have Dr. J at #1 then.

Wilt top 2??:lol :roll:

I barely have him top 12, he's olden day bran, no heart choking loser who only wins by teaming up..

MJ
Kaj
Russell
Kobe
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Dirk / dr j
Wilt

Few others

Bran

[Harison]

Borderline Top15. Its getting crowded there with Lebron sneaking in to Top10-15.

[Dr.J4ever]

Guys that are definitely above Dr J:

Jordan
Kareem
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Magic
Bird
Russell
Wilt
Moses Malone
Wade
Isiah Thomas
Hakeem Olajuwon
LeBron
Dirk
KG
Oscar Robertson

that leaves him out of the Top 15...

I will tell you the players in your lists that Doc is surely better than.

KG---KG never won anything until he got to Boston to join a "big 3". He played on some awful teams, and never won consistently enough to be this high on your list.

Isaiah--LOL.. Did Isaiah win any league MVPs?

Oscar- Not sure about this, but Oscar didn't win a title, while you dismiss 3 titles Doc won in 6 Finals appearances.

Dirk- Won one title. Did he win league MVP? I think he did. So Dirk won one title vs. Docs 3 titles and 6 finals appearances.

Wade- Doc has 3 MVPs. 2 scoring titles. Doc won wherever he played and has consistently played for contenders in both leagues.

Moses- Before coming to Philly, Moses was never a big winner. He never played on consistently contending teams. He took a .500 Houston team to the Finals, but that's it. He wasn't a very good passer, and except for 1983, he usually slowed teams down in a fast break era due to his bad outlet passes.

If you include Doc's ABA career, and you really have to, because you can't throw away 5 prime years of Julius Erving, Doc is even ahead of Lebron as we speak. And if you asked who I would take at SF for one game or one series between a prime Doc and a prime Bird, I would take Doc.

The doc of the ABA was a monster, and just because they played in an era with no national TV telecasts doesn't mean it doesn't count. Doc averaged 37.7 PPG in the last ABA Finals against the best defensive forward in either league at the time in Bobby Jones of Denver. This would be the same Denver team that almost had the best record in the newly merged NBA the next season . The same Nugget team that lost to eventual champion Portland with it's newly ABA reinforced team in 6 games. Doc and the Nets beat Denver in 6 games as well in that last ABA Finals.

Bottom line, Doc is top 10 in my book.

[Dr.J4ever]

I realize the key to how high Doc rises in the rankings is the quality of the ABA. Here are some excerpts from Wiki:

Interleague competition in anticipation of merger

In the summer before the 1971-72 season the ABA and NBA met in an interleague All Star Game. The NBA won a close game, 125-120.[17][18] In that same preseason, ABA and NBA teams began playing exhibition games against each other.[1][19] The first such exhibition was played on September 21, 1971 with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and the Milwaukee Bucks barely defeating the Dallas Chaparrals, 106-103.[19] Gradually, the ABA began to prove itself superior, going 15-10 against the NBA in 1973, 16-7 in 1974, and 31-17 in 1975. Overall, the ABA won more of these interleague games than the NBA did, and in every matchup of reigning champions from the two leagues, the ABA champion won, including in the final pre-merger season when the Kentucky Colonels defeated the Golden State Warriors.[20] Boston Globe sportswriter Bob Ryan said of the ABA-NBA exhibition games: "When those exhibition games began, the view in the NBA was, 'Now we'll show those guys.' But then you know what happened - the ABA teams won nearly as often as the NBA did .... Those NBA-ABA games were intense."[21] Longtime NBA coach Larry Brown said of the ABA vs. NBA games, "When some exhibition games were arranged in the 1970s to make some money and we (the ABA) beat them, the NBA said they weren't up for the games. Come on. When I coached Carolina, we played the Knicks after they won a championship. I looked at their guys shooting around and I looked at my guys and I didn't want my players to take off their warm-ups because they looked so scrawny next to the Knicks - and we went out and beat New York. We also played the Celtics a couple of times and beat them. (Celtics coach) Tommy Heinsohn would say that we were playing to win and they weren't, but I'd check the box score and see that Tommy played his regulars 35 to 40 minutes, so what does that tell you?"[22]

[the mesiah]

Top 15 EASILY..including ABA/NBA accolades and stats.

[GimmeThat]

Bottom line, Doc is top 10 in my book.


I just don't know if I believe in top 10 lists anymore.

the top 5 is generally a much easier argument comparison.
you get past that, it gets complicated.

[Dr.J4ever]

I just don't know if I believe in top 10 lists anymore.

the top 5 is generally a much easier argument comparison.
you get past that, it gets complicated.
You have a good point there. I'm not big on lists either, but people on this board just absolutely love it.

[ArbitraryWater]

9-15 :roll:

20-25

Doc has 1 title (2nd best player) and 1 mvp

[G.O.A.T]

With ONE sidekick ring riding the coattails of Moses Malone? :roll:

Lets be real, noone but you counts the ABA championships.


Guys that are definitely above Dr J:

Jordan
Kareem
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Magic
Bird
Russell
Wilt
Moses Malone
Wade
Isiah Thomas
Hakeem Olajuwon
LeBron
Dirk
KG
Oscar Robertson

that leaves him out of the Top 15...

Why would Oscar be ahead of him if you're holding him having one ring against him? Dr. J was the best player on four NBA finals teams before Moses. Oscar never even made the Finals until he got to Milwaukee.


Also like to hear your reasoning for Dirk, KG and Wade...


9-15 :roll:

20-25

Doc has 1 title (2nd best player) and 1 mvp

The list of guys with 1 title (in a role as large as Doc's) and 1 MVP isn't that long. By my count, it's 22, and that's if you stretch it to include the likes of Willis Reed, Dave Cowens, David Robinson, Bill Walton, Oscar Robertson and Westley Unseld. How many of those guys do you have above Doc?

[LAZERUSS]

9-15 :roll:

20-25

Doc has 1 title (2nd best player) and 1 mvp

So you are not counting his ABA years at all then. Re-read the OP.

[longhornfan1234]

1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Russell
6. Duncan
7. Bird
8. Shaq
9. Kobe
10. LeBron
11. Hakeem
12. Moses
13. West
14. Oscar
15. Dr. J

[ArbitraryWater]

So you are not counting his ABA years at all then. Re-read the OP.

Yea I'm not... Why would I? Because you say so? :oldlol:

[Iceman#44]

Not top 10

[LAZERUSS]

1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Russell
6. Duncan
7. Bird
8. Shaq
9. Kobe
10. LeBron
11. Hakeem
12. Moses
13. West
14. Oscar
15. Dr. J

This is actually a pretty damned good list. I don't agree with all of it, at least the orders (but very few would agree with mine, either.) BTW, and most won't acknowledge him, but Bob Pettit deserves to be in the Top-20, and probably closer to the top-10.

As for your ranking of Dr J...that would be about the lowest I could go. I have him ranked as high as 9th (Wilt, MJ, Magic, Russell, KAJ, Shaq, Duncan, and Lebron)...which would move him ahead of Kobe, Bird, Hakeem, Moses, West, and Oscar (and Pettit.)

Again, though, anywhere from 9th to 15th. I wouldn't argue the order.

[LAZERUSS]

Yea I'm not... Why would I? Because you say so? :oldlol:

So you are basically dismissing the prime of his career, then?

[coin24]

What kind of an idiot ranks wilt higher than Russell :roll: :roll:

[Dr.J4ever]

I realize the key to how high Doc rises in the rankings is the quality of the ABA. Here are some excerpts from Wiki:

Interleague competition in anticipation of merger

In the summer before the 1971-72 season the ABA and NBA met in an interleague All Star Game. The NBA won a close game, 125-120.[17][18] In that same preseason, ABA and NBA teams began playing exhibition games against each other.[1][19] The first such exhibition was played on September 21, 1971 with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and the Milwaukee Bucks barely defeating the Dallas Chaparrals, 106-103.[19] Gradually, the ABA began to prove itself superior, going 15-10 against the NBA in 1973, 16-7 in 1974, and 31-17 in 1975. Overall, the ABA won more of these interleague games than the NBA did, and in every matchup of reigning champions from the two leagues, the ABA champion won, including in the final pre-merger season when the Kentucky Colonels defeated the Golden State Warriors.[20] Boston Globe sportswriter Bob Ryan said of the ABA-NBA exhibition games: "When those exhibition games began, the view in the NBA was, 'Now we'll show those guys.' But then you know what happened - the ABA teams won nearly as often as the NBA did .... Those NBA-ABA games were intense."[21] Longtime NBA coach Larry Brown said of the ABA vs. NBA games, "When some exhibition games were arranged in the 1970s to make some money and we (the ABA) beat them, the NBA said they weren't up for the games. Come on. When I coached Carolina, we played the Knicks after they won a championship. I looked at their guys shooting around and I looked at my guys and I didn't want my players to take off their warm-ups because they looked so scrawny next to the Knicks - and we went out and beat New York. We also played the Celtics a couple of times and beat them. (Celtics coach) Tommy Heinsohn would say that we were playing to win and they weren't, but I'd check the box score and see that Tommy played his regulars 35 to 40 minutes, so what does that tell you?"[22]

BTW, if anyone would like to comment on the above piece from Wiki, please do so. Anything inaccurate with these comments by Larry Brown or Bob Ryan?
I mean, the piece above shows the Aba was pretty close to the NBA, and some suspect better than the NBA in some aspects by the time they merged.

[iamgine]

Counting ABA is like counting college career...or something like that.

[LAZERUSS]

What kind of an idiot ranks wilt higher than Russell :roll: :roll:

Ask Russell who he says was the greatest ever...



"Nobody seems to appreciate what an incredible player Wilt was," Russell said at 1997 All-Star Game when the league named and honored its 50 greatest players. "He was the best player of all time because he dominated the floor like nobody else ever could. To be that big and that athletic was special."

"Idiotic" Russell...

[Dr.J4ever]

Counting ABA is like counting college career...or something like that.
Ummm....no it's not something like that.

[WillC]

1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Russell
6. Duncan
7. Bird
8. Shaq
9. Kobe
10. LeBron
11. Hakeem
12. Moses
13. West
14. Oscar
15. Dr. J

Very solid list, although I'd have Robertson, West and Erving ahead of Moses (who I'd therefore drop to 15th).

[LAZERUSS]

Counting ABA is like counting college career...or something like that.


Except it had PRIME HOFers like Rick Barry, Billy Cunningham, and Artis Gilmore, among others...

[coin24]

Ask Russell who he says was the greatest ever...



"Idiotic" Russell...

He can't say himself..

Jeez how many wilt related quotes do you have saved? Weird obsession

[LAZERUSS]

He can't say himself..

Jeez how many wilt related quotes do you have saved? Weird obsession

Look, I don't need any quotes...

Take a look at this and get back to me as to who the better player REALLY was...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aoy3YD7IdypTdEpOeFRwY29NRTUtWVlFWVJ5TkFDY 3c#gid=0

That's DOMINATION my friend.

[G.O.A.T]

Yea I'm not... Why would I? Because you say so? :oldlol:


Counting ABA is like counting college career...or something like that.

The reason you don't is likely because you're ignorant of what the ABA was.

The ABA years need to be considered. I'm not saying an ABA MVP or ABA title equals an NBA title but they are not that far apart. Look at the top teams the '76 Celtics had to beat in the NBA and the '76 Nets had to beat in the ABA.

They faced the Pacers, who had future NBA All-Stars George McGinnis, Don Buse, Dan Roundfield and Billy Knight. Four future NBA All-Stars (3 the next season) on one roster and they lost in the first round.

They lost to the Kentucky Colonels who were led by Artis Gilmore, who would become an NBA all-star regular after five high-level prime seasons in the ABA and also Had Maurice Lucas who would be the second best player on the NBA Champion Trailblazers the next year. They lost in the semifinals.

As did the San Antonio Spurs who had a legit NBA starting center in Billy Paultz (who actually outplayed Dave Cowens several times) an NBA All-star forward in Larry Kennon, James Silas aka Captain Late who finished second to Doc in MVP voting and a guy named George Gervin.

In the Finals the Nets faced the Denver Nuggets. The Nuggets had Dan Issel who averaged 20 ppg in a 10 year NBA career after giving up five prime seasons to the ABA. They had Ralph Simpson who averaged over 20 points three time and was a first round pick by the Bulls in 1972. Marvin Webster a starter for the 1978 Western Conference Champion Sonics. They had Bobby Jones who would go on make four NBA All-Star teams and nine all-defensive teams and of course David Thompson.

The four teams that joined the NBA after the '76 season were all quality NBA teams except the Nets who needed to sell Erving to Philly to get into the league. The Nuggets won 50 games.

The point, as you now have no reason to be ignorant of, the ABA should count, it's up to you to decide how much, but to ignore it is just foolish.

[LAZERUSS]

Very solid list, although I'd have Robertson, West and Erving ahead of Moses (who I'd therefore drop to 15th).

Oscar is tough...

At one time he was right there with Russell and Wilt.

And, I guess very few acknowledge that he also won one ring, and played in two Finals, and in his last four seasons, his teams went 66-16, 63-19, 60-22, and 59-23. Or the fact that after he retired, the Bucks fell to 44-38...

[dr.hee]

Look, I don't need any quotes...

Take a look at this and get back to me as to who the better player REALLY was...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aoy3YD7IdypTdEpOeFRwY29NRTUtWVlFWVJ5TkFDY 3c#gid=0

That's DOMINATION my friend.

OCD much?

:lol

[LAZERUSS]

The reason you don't is likely because you're ignorant of what the ABA was.

The ABA years need to be considered. I'm not saying an ABA MVP or ABA title equals an NBA title but they are not that far apart. Look at the top teams the '76 Celtics had to beat in the NBA and the '76 Nets had to beat in the ABA.

They faced the Pacers, who had future NBA All-Stars George McGinnis, Don Buse, Dan Roundfield and Billy Knight. Four future NBA All-Stars (3 the next season) on one roster and they lost in the first round.

They lost to the Kentucky Colonels who were led by Artis Gilmore, who would become an NBA all-star regular after five high-level prime seasons in the ABA and also Had Maurice Lucas who would be the second best player on the NBA Champion Trailblazers the next year. They lost in the semifinals.

As did the San Antonio Spurs who had a legit NBA starting center in Billy Paultz (who actually outplayed Dave Cowens several times) an NBA All-star forward in Larry Kennon, James Silas aka Captain Late who finished second to Doc in MVP voting and a guy named George Gervin.

In the Finals the Nets faced the Denver Nuggets. The Nuggets had Dan Issel who averaged 20 ppg in a 10 year NBA career after giving up five prime seasons to the ABA. They had Ralph Simpson who averaged over 20 points three time and was a first round pick by the Bulls in 1972. Marvin Webster a starter for the 1978 Western Conference Champion Sonics. They had Bobby Jones who would go on make four NBA All-Star teams and nine all-defensive teams and of course David Thompson.

The four teams that joined the NBA after the '76 season were all quality NBA teams except the Nets who needed to sell Erving to Philly to get into the league. The Nuggets won 50 games.

The point, as you now have no reason to be ignorant of, the ABA should count, it's up to you to decide how much, but to ignore it is just foolish.

Way too much research for the average ISH poster to absorb...

[Nowitness]

Maybe top 30, maybe. On my 2010 list I had him just behind Reggie Miller, so he has prolly dropped 2/3 spots since.

32nd.

[G.O.A.T]

BTW, if anyone would like to comment on the above piece from Wiki, please do so. Anything inaccurate with these comments by Larry Brown or Bob Ryan?
I mean, the piece above shows the Aba was pretty close to the NBA, and some suspect better than the NBA in some aspects by the time they merged.


I won't say the ABA was as good as the NBA, but it wasn't a huge difference. From '67 to '70 the NBA was quite a ways ahead. Aside from Rick Barry and a few guys the NBA banned like Doug Moe, Roger Brown, Connie Hawkins and Spencer Haywood (the last two for only one year each) the ABA didn't have the same kind of players. But starting in 1971 they got guys like Gilmore and Doc right out of college. The stole Cunningham from the NBA and by 1973 the ABA's best teams were on a similar level in terms of talent as the NBA's.

Depth is where the NBA wins out of course as their financial stability allowed. The ABA had better forwards I believe, but 10 of the top 12 centers from the era played in the NBA and the best ABA guards, guys like Brown, Ron Boone, Jimmy Jones, Larry Jones, Donnie Freeman, Louie Dampier, Super John Williamson, Bill Melchioni etc. never made as big a splash in the NBA.

Still the ABA created the three-point shot which has totally changed the game today. They brought in flash and style at a whole new level, they helped the NBA get to true major league status by driving up salaries and creating free agency and they put Basketball in three cities that still support great NBA franchises. The legacy of this otherwise would be forgotten league is stronger than ever.

[LAZERUSS]

Maybe top 30, maybe. On my 2010 list I had him just behind Reggie Miller, so he has prolly dropped 2/3 spots since.

32nd.

You must have used a dart-board...

[LAZERUSS]

I won't say the ABA was as good as the NBA, but it wasn't a huge difference. From '67 to '70 the NBA was quite a ways ahead. Aside from Rick Barry and a few guys the NBA banned like Doug Moe, Roger Brown, Connie Hawkins and Spencer Haywood (the last two for only one year each) the ABA didn't have the same kind of players. But starting in 1971 they got guys like Gilmore and Doc right out of college. The stole Cunningham from the NBA and by 1973 the ABA's best teams were on a similar level in terms of talent as the NBA's.

Depth is where the NBA wins out of course as their financial stability allowed. The ABA had better forwards I believe, but 10 of the top 12 centers from the era played in the NBA and the best ABA guards, guys like Brown, Ron Boone, Jimmy Jones, Larry Jones, Donnie Freeman, Louie Dampier, Super John Williamson, Bill Melchioni etc. never made as big a splash in the NBA.

Still the ABA created the three-point shot which has totally changed the game today. They brought in flash and style at a whole new level, they helped the NBA get to true major league status by driving up salaries and creating free agency and they put Basketball in three cities that still support great NBA franchises. The legacy of this otherwise would be forgotten league is stronger than ever.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Dr.J4ever]

The reason you don't is likely because you're ignorant of what the ABA was.

The ABA years need to be considered. I'm not saying an ABA MVP or ABA title equals an NBA title but they are not that far apart. Look at the top teams the '76 Celtics had to beat in the NBA and the '76 Nets had to beat in the ABA.

They faced the Pacers, who had future NBA All-Stars George McGinnis, Don Buse, Dan Roundfield and Billy Knight. Four future NBA All-Stars (3 the next season) on one roster and they lost in the first round.

They lost to the Kentucky Colonels who were led by Artis Gilmore, who would become an NBA all-star regular after five high-level prime seasons in the ABA and also Had Maurice Lucas who would be the second best player on the NBA Champion Trailblazers the next year. They lost in the semifinals.

As did the San Antonio Spurs who had a legit NBA starting center in Billy Paultz (who actually outplayed Dave Cowens several times) an NBA All-star forward in Larry Kennon, James Silas aka Captain Late who finished second to Doc in MVP voting and a guy named George Gervin.

In the Finals the Nets faced the Denver Nuggets. The Nuggets had Dan Issel who averaged 20 ppg in a 10 year NBA career after giving up five prime seasons to the ABA. They had Ralph Simpson who averaged over 20 points three time and was a first round pick by the Bulls in 1972. Marvin Webster a starter for the 1978 Western Conference Champion Sonics. They had Bobby Jones who would go on make four NBA All-Star teams and nine all-defensive teams and of course David Thompson.

The four teams that joined the NBA after the '76 season were all quality NBA teams except the Nets who needed to sell Erving to Philly to get into the league. The Nuggets won 50 games.

The point, as you now have no reason to be ignorant of, the ABA should count, it's up to you to decide how much, but to ignore it is just foolish.
Thank you, and no one has dared comment about my Wiki excerpt on the ABA NBA rivalry:

Interleague competition in anticipation of merger

In the summer before the 1971-72 season the ABA and NBA met in an interleague All Star Game. The NBA won a close game, 125-120.[17][18] In that same preseason, ABA and NBA teams began playing exhibition games against each other.[1][19] The first such exhibition was played on September 21, 1971 with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and the Milwaukee Bucks barely defeating the Dallas Chaparrals, 106-103.[19] Gradually, the ABA began to prove itself superior, going 15-10 against the NBA in 1973, 16-7 in 1974, and 31-17 in 1975. Overall, the ABA won more of these interleague games than the NBA did, and in every matchup of reigning champions from the two leagues, the ABA champion won, including in the final pre-merger season when the Kentucky Colonels defeated the Golden State Warriors.[20] Boston Globe sportswriter Bob Ryan said of the ABA-NBA exhibition games: "When those exhibition games began, the view in the NBA was, 'Now we'll show those guys.' But then you know what happened - the ABA teams won nearly as often as the NBA did .... Those NBA-ABA games were intense."[21] Longtime NBA coach Larry Brown said of the ABA vs. NBA games, "When some exhibition games were arranged in the 1970s to make some money and we (the ABA) beat them, the NBA said they weren't up for the games. Come on. When I coached Carolina, we played the Knicks after they won a championship. I looked at their guys shooting around and I looked at my guys and I didn't want my players to take off their warm-ups because they looked so scrawny next to the Knicks - and we went out and beat New York. We also played the Celtics a couple of times and beat them. (Celtics coach) Tommy Heinsohn would say that we were playing to win and they weren't, but I'd check the box score and see that Tommy played his regulars 35 to 40 minutes, so what does that tell you?"[22]

[Harison]

He can't say himself..

Jeez how many wilt related quotes do you have saved? Weird obsession
Fans take such quotes way too literal, ignoring context, exaggerations, flattery and figures-of-speech.

For example lets take Bird, he said Len Bias was better than him and MJ, then called MJ as the God, and so on. Last time I checked, neither MJ is God, nor Len Bias was better than Bird/Jordan.

Or even jealousy, wasnt it Pippen who said Lebron is better than MJ?

Its just a few examples, fans should really think before they take such quotes too literal.

[coin24]

Fans take such quotes way too literal, ignoring context, exaggerations, flattery and figures-of-speech.

For example lets take Bird, he said Len Bias was better than him and MJ, then called MJ as the God, and so on. Last time I checked, neither MJ is God, nor Len Bias was better than Bird/Jordan.

Or even jealousy, wasnt it Pippen who said Lebron is better than MJ?

Its just a few examples, fans should really think before they take such quotes too literal.


Were talking about jlauber chaimberlain here though..
I think he actually believes wilt wrestled mountain lions and banged 20,000 women:lol

But yeah I couldn't agree more, most quotes from players shouldn't be taken as gospel:cheers:

[steve]

Erving in his prime, just about regardless of the players he played with, guaranteed his team about 50 wins and title contention year in and year out. There are only a handful of players you can say the same thing about.

[Dr.J4ever]

Erving in his prime, just about regardless of the players he played with, guaranteed his team about 50 wins and title contention year in and year out. There are only a handful of players you can say the same thing about.
Exactly:applause:

[jayfan]

Ask Russell who he says was the greatest ever...



"Idiotic" Russell...

Nice. Please remember this post next time you feel compelled to argue Shaq over Hakeem.

I digress. Carry on.

[LAZERUSS]

Nice. Please remember this post next time you feel compelled to argue Shaq over Hakeem.

I digress. Carry on.

I can ALSO statistically PROVE both were better. You can't.

Hakeem was a beaten dog in the '95 Finals. And in the '99 playoffs (yet another first round blowout playoff loss on his resume), he was waving the white flag. In fact over their entire career H2H's it was a total mis-match. Just brutal.

[Iceman#44]

MY list


1 - Michael Jordan
2 - Wilt Chamberlain
3 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4 - Magic Johnson
5 - Larry Bird
6 - Bill Russell
7 - Shaquille O'Neal
8 - Kobe Bryant
9 - Tim Duncan
10 - LeBron James
11 - Hakeem Olajuwon
12 - Moses Malone
13 - Julius Erving
14 - Oscar Robertson
15 - Jerry West

[SHAQisGOAT]

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Shaq
7. Duncan
8. Wilt
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe
11. LeBron
12. Moses
13. Oscar
14. West
15. Erving
....

Something like that, I don't value what he did in the ABA as much but I still give it weight.

As far as careers he's probably my pick for 3rd GOAT SF, after Bird and Bron, followed by Hondo and Baylor, it's pretty close between him and those last 2 though.

[LAZERUSS]

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Shaq
7. Duncan
8. Wilt
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe
11. LeBron
12. Moses
13. Oscar
14. West
15. Erving
....

Something like that, I don't value what he did in the ABA as much but I still give it weight.

As far as careers he's probably my pick for 3rd GOAT SF, after Bird and Bron, followed by Hondo and Baylor, it's pretty close between him and those last 2 though.


:roll: :roll: :roll:

[WillC]

01 - Michael Jordan
02 - Wilt Chamberlain
03 - Bill Russell
04 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
05 - Larry Bird
06 - Magic Johnson
07 - Shaquille O'Neal
08 - Tim Duncan
09 - LeBron James
10 - Kobe Bryant
11 - Oscar Robertson
12 - Hakeem Olajuwon
13 - Jerry West
14 - Julius Erving
15 - Moses Malone

-------------------------
16 - Elgin Baylor

I hate leaving Baylor out of the top 15, but it's hard to find room for him.

[LAZERUSS]

01 - Michael Jordan
02 - Wilt Chamberlain
03 - Bill Russell
04 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
05 - Larry Bird
06 - Magic Johnson
07 - Shaquille O'Neal
08 - Tim Duncan
09 - LeBron James
10 - Kobe Bryant
11 - Oscar Robertson
12 - Hakeem Olajuwon
13 - Jerry West
14 - Julius Erving
15 - Moses Malone

-------------------------
16 - Elgin Baylor

I hate leaving Baylor out of the top 15, but it's hard to find room for him.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

Coming from someone who actually knows the game.

Personally, I would rank Magic higher, Bird considerably lower (remember, we are talking about CAREER resumes here), and Moses a couple of slots higher. And if we give the ABA close to equal recognition, Dr. J a little higher, as well.

[Dbrog]

14 for me right behind Oscar. I wouldn't be mad if someone put him at 13 though. IMO he's one of the few pretty much locked in a position. You get to twelve and you're talking about West/Hakeem/Lebron type. At 15 you have Moses/Barry/Barkley territory and I think doc is better than them for sure.

Edit: WillC my top 20 is very close to yours actually.

Russell
Jordan
Jabbar
Wilt
Duncan
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Kobe
Hakeem
Lebron
West
Oscar
Dr J
Moses
Barry
Barkley
Dirk
KG
Karl Malone


I feel bad about dropping Baylor too! He's actually 23 on my list. His lack of success kills his rating for me even though he was basically Lebron back them. I may place him over Karl though so that he could be top20. I certainly think he was better as a standalone player. Karl has so many accolades though.

[WillC]

:applause: :applause: :applause:

Coming from someone who actually knows the game.

Personally, I would rank Magic higher, Bird considerably lower (remember, we are talking about CAREER resumes here), and Moses a couple of slots higher. And if we give the ABA close to equal recognition, Dr. J a little higher, as well.

We are indeed talking about career resumes, but we also need to consider peak ability - you have to factor in as much as possible, in my opinion. Bird at his peak was outrageously good. Three straight MVP awards. You know the rest.

There's a strong argument to bump Moses up a few places (as most people tend to do, relative to my rankings), but his lack of defense hurts him, as does the fact that he's possibly the worst passing HOF center since the dawn of the shot-clock era. The other dirty little secret of his career was the relative lack of competition at the center position during his peak (1979 to 1984). Obviously Kareem gave him a great rival but after that we're talking about Jack Sikma and an ageing Bob Lanier and then a huge drop off in talent at his position.

You could perhaps say the same about other players' respective opposition, but Moses certainly had it easy, sans Kareem.

[G.O.A.T]

You could perhaps say the same about other players' respective opposition, but Moses certainly had it easy, sans Kareem.

Just because I've been looking at this era a lot lately, the late seventies had a little more depth at center than you're giving it credit for. True, it was a lull between the Big Man hey days of the late 60's early 1970's and late 80's early 1990's, but there were a number of good big men. More per team than today I'd say.

You forgot to mention Artis Gilmore, still in his prime, but buried on a rebuilding Chicago team. There were a couple very good defensive centers like Caldwell Jones and Tree Rollins, offensive guys like Dan Issel and Alvan Adams, a slew of good young big men like Mychal Thompson, James Edwards, Daryll Dawkins and Robert Parish. The Bullets still had the Unsled/Hayes duo. Sam Lacey was a nice player. Again, it wasn't glory days for centers, but there were quality guys all over the league. Had Walton stayed healthy and Cowens and McAdoo lasted a little longer, it would been a strong position I believe.

[SHAQisGOAT]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Dude makes a thread asking where Dr J ranks all-time then just focus on Wilt (and Bird) :rolleyes: How sad, pathetic and ignorant are you, little child? Be gone :facepalm

[lilteapot]

he's top 20. he seriously gets overrated by people on here

[Dbrog]

Don't forget the big E was still ballin back then (late 70s/early 80s) and he was probably top 30 players ever :) Even this late in his career he was putting up 20/10 in the playoffs with nice defense.

[Dbrog]

With ONE sidekick ring riding the coattails of Moses Malone? :roll:

Lets be real, noone but you counts the ABA championships.

How can it be coattails? Just the year before he and Andrew Tony took the same Laker squad to 6 without Moses. Moses just put them over the top. However, they did SUPERCHOKE the year after the chip vs the nets.

[mr4speed]

01 - Michael Jordan
02 - Wilt Chamberlain
03 - Bill Russell
04 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
05 - Larry Bird
06 - Magic Johnson
07 - Shaquille O'Neal
08 - Tim Duncan
09 - LeBron James
10 - Kobe Bryant
11 - Oscar Robertson
12 - Hakeem Olajuwon
13 - Jerry West
14 - Julius Erving
15 - Moses Malone

-------------------------
16 - Elgin Baylor

I hate leaving Baylor out of the top 15, but it's hard to find room for him.



Nice list - everybody has a different list, I think players should be rated by position played, that way you really are looking at a similar role or function. I also like to look at peaks. Here is mine, Center = 1 Wilt, 2 Kareem, 3 Shaq. PF = 1K. Malone 2 Duncan 3 Pettit. SF = 1 Bird 2 Lebron 3 Dr J. SG=1 Jordan 2 West 3 Kobe PG = 1 Oscar 2 Magic 3 Isiah

[Nowitness]

Nice list - everybody has a different list, I think players should be rated by position played, that way you really are looking at a similar role or function. I also like to look at peaks. Here is mine, Center = 1 Wilt, 2 Kareem, 3 Shaq. PF = 1K. Malone 2 Duncan 3 Pettit. SF = 1 Bird 2 Lebron 3 Dr J. SG=1 Jordan 2 West 3 Kobe PG = 1 Oscar 2 Magic 3 Isiah

Oscar over Magic?
Malone over Duncan?
Wilt even in top 3 C?

[Dbrog]

Oscar over Magic?
Malone over Duncan?
Wilt even in top 3 C?

He's talking about peaks. Duncan still better than Malone IMO and Magic vs Oscar is debatable. Also, Frasier > Isiah

[mr4speed]

Oscar over Magic?
Malone over Duncan?
Wilt even in top 3 C?

I've got Oscar over Magic because of his scoring and his defense. When Oscar retired he was considered the best all around basketball player that ever lived - similar to how many people view Jordan now. I have Malone over Duncan because of Malone's ability to run the floor and he's just a better shooter than Duncan - by that I mean he has more range - many of Duncan's shots are so flat, but I've always loved how he uses the backboard. I have Wilt as my #1 center because there was nothing he couldn't do. Too bad they didn't count blocked shots back then! Wilt outplayed Russell very often but Wilt couldn't outplay the Celtics. When Wilt got a quality team around him (the 67 sixers)- it was 1 of the greatest teams of all time. Wilt led the league in assists one year and could throw behind the back bounce passes to cutting teammates. Wilt was looked upon as Goliath and nobody wanted to see him win. Just ask Russell who the greatest center is - his answer was Wilt.

[mr4speed]

He's talking about peaks. Duncan still better than Malone IMO and Magic vs Oscar is debatable. Also, Frasier > Isiah

Damn, I forgot about Frasier! He also could really rise to the occasion and play big in big games. Maybe I'll have to slip him in instead of Isiah.

[houston]

He in the top 20 thats for sure. If Barry and Erving was in the NBA during 70's Hondo wouldn't made all those all-nba teams.

[pastis]

top 20, but behind dirk.:applause:

[LA Lakers]

Top 20 easily. His best years were ABA. Chocolate Thunder aka Darryl Dawkins another very underrated player with the young bucks, speaking of the Sixers' greats. I said in another discussion, about Lebron and where he ranks, that put side the top five all time its very hard to rank individual players. My top 5 are Mike, Magic, Kareem, Wilt and Bill Russell in no order. Can throw Larry Bird in there, too. No one is beating that squad.

[Mure]

Guys that are definitely above Dr J:

Jordan
Kareem
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Magic
Bird
Russell
Wilt
Moses Malone
Wade
Isiah Thomas
Hakeem Olajuwon
LeBron
Dirk
KG
Oscar Robertson

that leaves him out of the Top 15...

LOL at Wade, Isiah, Dirk, and KG being in the same breath as Dr J. Fvck outta here fgt.

[pastis]

LOL at Wade, Isiah, Dirk, and KG being in the same breath as Dr J. Fvck outta here fgt.

wade and isiah are worse. kg equal to j but dirk is better. so stfu human scrub

[Mure]

wade and isiah are worse. kg equal to j but dirk is better. so stfu human scrub

Dirk is a very poor mans Larry Bird. Great player don't get me wrong, but cmon dude. He's like top 25 at best.

[ThePhantomCreep]

Top 15. His ABA numbers are a bit Wilt-like (inflated), thus not as valuable as his NBA stats. Four finals in a 7-year span shows he was a legit franchise superstar in his prime. This ain't Adrian Dantley or Pete Maravich we're talking about.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

The lower down you go on these ATG lists the more difficult it gets.

I wouldn't say top 15...KG,West,Moses,Kobe,Mikan all have cases over him at least... and those are just the obvious ones.

[kshutts1]

Nice list - everybody has a different list, I think players should be rated by position played, that way you really are looking at a similar role or function. I also like to look at peaks. Here is mine, Center = 1 Wilt, 2 Kareem, 3 Shaq. PF = 1K. Malone 2 Duncan 3 Pettit. SF = 1 Bird 2 Lebron 3 Dr J. SG=1 Jordan 2 West 3 Kobe PG = 1 Oscar 2 Magic 3 Isiah

Interesting way to rank players. Disagree with the results, but that's why it's your list.

I go by tiers... there is no order within the tiers. I'll explain reasoning after the list, if anyone cares.

T1:
MJ, Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Bird, Oscar, Kareem, Magic

T2:
Kobe, Lebron, Duncan, Hakeem, KG

T3:
K/M Malone, Doc, West, Barkley, Pettit (explained at very bottom of my ridiculously long post)

Super long explanation:
With all the positional and era differences, I find it near impossible to literally rank players. Who's to say that Wilt is better than Shaq, or vice versa? Even with them playing the same position, the eras are so totally different. Imagine now that there are different positions along with the era, like a Wilt/Magic comparison. Seems silly to definitively say that one was better than the other.
So I try to go by a rough guideline that includes things like...
1) How was that player considered, relative to his peers? This is where Oscar gets in to the first tier. All things I have heard and read say he was the "unanimous" GOAT until Jordan came along. Can't leave him out of the first tier after that, especially considering the next couple points.
2) Same/similar position and era comparisons are doable. Jordan is better than Kobe. The eras and positions are close enough where I will argue that until the day I die. For that reason, Kobe can not be in the same tier as Jordan. This argument is why Kobe/Hakeem are in the second tier, Karl is in the third, etc.
3) Statistics, and their context, matter, and they matter more than team wins and titles. I'm "ranking" individuals, not teams. This is why KG is so high on the list. I know I'm probably the only person in the world who feels this way, but I truly believe that if KG and Duncan has one anothers' career "situations" that their careers would also flip. As in, KG would have 5 titles, be considered greatest PF ever, etc. Wilt and Oscar also benefit hugely from this.
That's pretty much what I focus on for tiers.

Some HM/T4 guys... Drexler, AI, Wade, Pippen, DRob, Ewing... I never put forth the energy to continue the tiers much beyond the first three, so that list is incomplete, both from a players and possibly T4/T5 combination standpoint.

To "explain" Pettit, he seems like Larry Bird before Larry Bird. Relatively short career, but clearly an amazing player. I have a lot of difficulty placing him appropriately, so I put him in the third tier because, IMO, it's the furthest he should fall... but then I attempt to qualify his ranking. Basically, I'm too lazy to do any actual research, but I know that he's a "third tier" player at worst.