My experiences following the greats and LeBron

[RobertdeMeijer]

I grew up watching Bird and Magic go to the playoffs every year. The expectations were always: either one of them will win. The result wasn't far off: after the Sixers imploded, five finals were won by them. Eventually Detroit put an end to that, and afterwards there was another five years of expectations (nobody was sure he'd win in 91): now Jordan was going to collect trophies like baseball cards. And he did, relentlessly. Finally, there was a time that Shaq and Kobe owned the league for a period of three years.


This is the legacy that LeBron James has inherited. It's fascinating what kind of effect it has on every game he plays. Anything less than clockwork championships is seen as a failure. Even I, a phlegmatic kinda guy, can't help focusing on the missed chances. Here's the tally:
Years the world expected LeBron would get a ring: 09, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 (6 total)
Years of succes: 2

Now here's the point of starting this thread: How often have we expected other greats to win a championship?

-Kareem: 1971, 72 (1/2), 73 (1/2), 74, 77 (1/2), 81, 82 (1/2), 83 (1/2), 84 (1/2), 85 (1/2), 86 (1/2), 87 (1/2), 88 (1/2), 89 (9 total / 6 championships)
-Erving: 83, 84 (2 total, 1 championship)
-Bird: 82 (1/2), 83 (1/2), 84 (1/2), 85 (1/2), 86, 87 (1/2), 88 (1/2) (4 total, 3 championships)
-Magic: 81, 82 (1/2), 83 (1/2), 84 (1/2), 85 (1/2), 86 (1/2), 87 (1/2), 88 (1/2), 89 (5 1/2 total, 5 championships)
-Jordan: 92, 93, 96, 97, 98 (5 total, 6 championships)
- Hakeem: None (2 championships)
- Kobe: 00, 01, 02, 03, 04 (5 total, 5 champioinships)
- Shaq: 95 (1/2), 00, 01, 02, 03, 04 (5 1/2, 5 championships)
- Duncan: None (!) (5 championships)

So what I'm trying to say here is: LeBron's career has had an amount of disappointment like no other modern player has ever had (a .333 batting average, as it were). Duncan on the other hand (although I remember him getting about 80% of the hype LeBron got before going professional), has been completely overachieving.

But here's something impressive when it comes to LeBron: six nonstop years of expecting a ring is unprecedented. Bird, Magic, Kareem and Duncan were usually a 'maybe'. Jordan, Shaq and Kobe were a 'probably', but neither as long.

If you put the expectations aside, you get an outstanding resume: 9 years of straight playoffs, 5 finals and 2 wins. Half his career he was so good, you would imagine him winning it all. And every year, I see him doing well in the playoffs, usually being the most outstanding player. I just looked up his career playoff win shares, and it's already at 4th of all time. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career_p.html)
Alright, win shares is a box-score stat that rewards modern players (more games) in close matchups (more games). But let that sink in: he's already done more things on the floor in the playoffs than most of the greats, more than Magic, Kobe and Bird, only less than Jordan, Kareem and Duncan, and he's not even 30.

Let me get back to my personal experience: I don't recall being enticed by the outcome of another player for such a long time. The more I think about it, I'm really happy I get to follow James' career.

[russwest0]

great post, i rate it 2/5

[AintNoSunshine]

You are dumb as fukk, Lebron was only "expected" to win the championship in 09, 10 because of 2 reasons: 1. these people don't know basketball and failed to realize that Cavs team is Lebron surrounded by below average players, and 2. because Lebron is so great that he could win with whatever.

He's expected to win from 2011-2014, during which period he won 2 and went to the finals all 4 years.

[COnDEMnED]

I like how you sneakily put it "the greats......and Lebron". A Lebron stan wont appreciate that too much.

[Jlamb47]

Dude i hate Lebron but hes a great
He was mostly expected to win during those Heat years, and he went 4 years in a row witch is very hard. Yeah the East sucks but thats alot of playing time while most teams chillin.
He also won 2 of them. Stil Duncan > Lebron tho

[COnDEMnED]

Dude i hate Lebron but hes a great
He was mostly expected to win during those Heat years, and he went 4 years in a row witch is very hard. Yeah the East sucks but thats alot of playing time while most teams chillin.
He also won 2 of them. Stil Duncan > Lebron tho
To add to that thought, the other top 9 off all time > Lebron. I don't think he's bumped off the top 10 just yet, but another embarrassing defeat like the last 2 probably drops him off and Hakeem back on.

[plowking]

So you expected Lebron to win in 09 and 10 with his terrible supporting cast, yet Kobe with a far better supporting cast, the greatest coach of all time in terms of accolades and coming off back to back finals wasn't?

Maybe it's your retarded agenda and expectations that taints your viewing experience?

[plowking]

To add to that thought, the other top 9 off all time > Lebron. I don't think he's bumped off the top 10 just yet, but another embarrassing defeat like the last 2 probably drops him off and Hakeem back on.

No it won't. Embarrassing defeat? He lost to the better team, and the favourites.

[GimmeThat]

I guess you have a point.

where as before people remember players because they've won it all

now people remember the NBA as to whether or not Lebron will win again this year

[Ne 1]

:oldlol: at people who keep bringing up that Miami made it to 4 straight Finals and won 2 rings as if that was a success for them. Not saying it was a failure but it's just meh.... not impressive, just disappointing when you put it into context and don't simplify everything by saying "oh golly gee they made it to 4 Finals and won 2 rings!! Any team would take that! Well no shit but that's not the point. Look a that the foundation of this team. The big 3 and LeBron making it to the Finals every year and winning 2 rings doesn't look that bad historically but that is obviously inflated in the East when you consider their competition and the fact that they got owned vs Dallas in 2011 and were completely obliterated by the Spurs this year. Considering that, in the West they makes it to the Finals 2 times at the max and it's not like 2012 and 2013 would be a lock either given the state of the team those years in the playoffs.

[Blue&Orange]

No it won't. Embarrassing defeat? He lost to the better team, and the favourites.
lol dude was a couple of missed ft's by the spurs from being swept in the finals with the not 3, not 4, not 5 not 6 team. i can't think of anything more embarrassing, oh wait i can, you and the other lebrontards

[plowking]

:oldlol: at people who keep bringing up that Miami made it to 4 straight Finals and won 2 rings as if that was a success for them. Not saying it was a failure but it's just meh.... not impressive, just disappointing when you put it into context and don't simplify everything by saying "oh golly gee they made it to 4 Finals and won 2 rings!! Any team would take that! Well no shit but that's not the point. The big 3 and LeBron making it to the Finals every year and winning 2 rings doesn't look that bad historically but that is obviously inflated in the East when you consider their competition and the fact that they got owned vs Dallas in 2011 and were completely obliterated by the Spurs this year. Considering that, in the West they makes it to the Finals 2 times at the max and it's not like 2012 and 2013 would be a lock either given the state of the team those years in the playoffs.

Magic Johnson and Kareem had an even easier run each year, and at one point were even playing a round less. No one bats an eye at their accomplishments. In fact, people on here even have Kareem as the greatest of all time. I've seen Magic on a few lists at number 1 too.

[Ne 1]

So you expected Lebron to win in 09 and 10
http://i57.tinypic.com/2nrpwti.jpg

[plowking]

http://i57.tinypic.com/2nrpwti.jpg

You're proving my point. Lebron being as great as he is was expected to drag that average team to a finals victory. Speaks volumes.

[navy]

How was Jordan not expected to win every year, but Lebron was?

[tmacattack33]

LOL at saying Lebron was supposed to win in 2009 and 2010 in Cleveland.

Or even 2011, being on a new team. I believe the Lakers had higher vegas odds to start the year...which I will take as a little more reliable than you yourself thinking that Miami "was expected to" win in 2011.

*** outta here.

[Derka]

To add to that thought, the other top 9 off all time > Lebron. I don't think he's bumped off the top 10 just yet, but another embarrassing defeat like the last 2 probably drops him off and Hakeem back on.
I wouldn't call getting steamrolled by a far superior team embarassing necessarily.

[Ne 1]

You're proving my point. Lebron being as great as he is was expected to drag that average team to a finals victory. Speaks volumes. They weren't an average team though. They had 2 straight 60 win seasons and they were an elite defensive, elite rebounding team and one of the top 3 point shooting teams. It was pretty much the same formula in Miami as it was in Cleveland. Surround LeBron with shooters and scrappy, hardworking defenders/rebounders....hustle players/specialists who don't need the ball in their hands to contribute and be effective and let him control the offense. Only and big difference obviously was another top 3-5 superstar (when healthy) in Wade and and a top 5 PF/stretch 4 who was the face of a franchise and who would be the best player on nearly every other team in the Eastern Conference. He didn't have a superstar co-runner with the Cavs, but they had well built teams that were tailor made with pieces that complimented and catered to LeBron's strengths and playing style. Also, who knows how far that Cavs team could have gone in 2010 if it weren't for that odd turn if events with LeBron visibly pouting/quitting. They were up 2-1 vs Boston, and Lebron had been playing well, but he disappeared in the final 3 games. If the team was that bad, how did they manage to stay competitive with the Celtics when Lebron shot 2-20 and had 10 turnovers? As I mentioned, they were up 2-1 and if LeBron played even close to his usual level, the Cavs in all likelihood win the series. The Celtics deserve some credit, but Lebron just seemed off and he played like garbage in the last 3 games. He didn't seem like himself at all. I don't know if he was looking towards the summer, or if the Delonte rumor was true, but he really looked visibly distracted.

[RobertdeMeijer]

http://i57.tinypic.com/2nrpwti.jpg

Thanks for looking this up. Those Cav teams were really good with a deep bench and perfect role players.

By the time the playoffs started in 1991, the Pistons, Blazers and Bulls were considered the best bets. Nobody expected the 15-2 steamroll. Summer of 1991 was an explosion of Jordan hype afterwards.

[LBJ 23]

If the team was that bad, how did they manage to stay competitive with the Celtics when Lebron shot 2-20 and had 10 turnovers?


If the team was so good, how did they manage to lose with Lebron averaging 38-8-8 for the series against Orlando the year before?

[Roundball_Rock]

Good, thoughtful OP. It is interesting, has any other player in history been expected to win nearly every year in his prime simply by virtue of his presence on the roster? Look at the other legends...when they lost it was 1) the team's fault 2) the team ran into a much stronger opponent so the loss doesn't "count" 3) a combination of the two.

The logic used with LeBron is this: if LeBron is on a contending team anything less than a title is a failure. Since LeBron is in fact one of the few players who can make any team an instant contender (i.e. a top 5 team in the league), the expectation is that he should win every year irrespective of the flaws in his team or the gap that may exist between his contending team and the other contenders.

Why is this logic not applied to others? Using this standard, there were more "failures" by other legends--all of them except Russell.

[jstern]

Here's the problem with Lebron, he has too many haters in the YouTube, ISH, Twitter era. And unlike past years, his new stans are beginning to get as obnoxious as the Kobe stans. He's at a point in his career where he's getting new fans that are literally so young that they probably never saw him during his Cavs days, or were too young to really remember them.

[riseagainst]

You're proving my point. Lebron being as great as he is was expected to drag that average team to a finals victory. Speaks volumes.

this is why lebron stans are so annoying. credits wins to lebron, blames losses on teammates..... if it's a team game, then lebron did have help, or else they wouldn't have won 60+ games and be the favorites in those series. Make up you mind if you want to define this as a team game or a superstar game.

Either way 2/5.

[ArbitraryWater]

Expected LeBron to win in 2009 and 2010, BUT NOT KOBE....
Holds it against LeBron adding up more years, while Kobe seemed to have been fine with exits before the title... :oldlol:

Just be real with it, Kobe was expected to win/favorite in:
2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 (all as 2nd option so far), 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011&2012 partly, 2013...

2013: I know Gasol/Nash weren't the same in 2013, but still we're looking at a damn Kobe/Howard combo, with great role players!

I mean, Nash/Gasol/Peace is what we're counting as simply "role players" here..
Most teams win with a one-two punch, and then some good role players...

Lakers had all that, if not more.. Let's not act like people didn't say before the season "Kobe will get his 6th!!" and World Peace said they'd break the Bulls 72 win season record...

Kobe/Howard SHOULD be a beast one-two punch, yet without referee help they would have been 10th placed in the West, below the Mavs&Jazz... I remember the 2nd half of that season too well, like every game the Laker$ received some heavy favoritism. The Warriors game was the icing on the cake.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MhmGyZ7KF0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUKbs2Y4vo8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIhRES3uW4w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5VeVKf2EHI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq7u5xdSxVg

(Surprised they haven't been deleted yet.)

Why didn't it work?

Kobe simply didn't make the needed adjustments to help that team win... He broke the chemistry early on, and was on par with Harden for worst defender in the league... Heck, even LA Newspapers called out his defense. Then, after 17 years in the league, he wants to take the responsibility of playmaker/ballhandler of the team, to the degree of assists becoming his main focus, when he has STEVE NASH on the team? :wtf:
Let the guy do what he's done for his career, and excelled at...

As far as 2011 and 2012 goes, why do I say "partly" ? Well people didn't predict the Lakers to win, because Kobe simply wasn't that great anymore... Put LeBron on those teams, and he would have been the favorite..
It's just a matter of Kobe's play, he had the capable cast, but had 2 horrible post-season runs.

2011: Gasol/Bynum with Gasol as All-Star and Odom as 6th Man, all 3 playing at all-star level... Big man that can score 20+ points as first option, rebound in double digits, defend and pretect the basket (Bynum)... Same goes for 2012, except Bynum was the all-star, a more dominant one, and didn't fall apart like Gasol did both post-seasons in 2011 and 2012, while Odom was gone.
Kobe had the 2nd best C in the game on his team, yet he took 23 shots and shot 43% :facepalm
Under a Leader like LeBron, Bynum would have been an All-Star since 2008... and that's not just because LeBron's a great leader and gets everyone else involved, but because he SHOULD have been...He HAD that talent, but under Kobe, couldn't excel to the maximum... Lack of touches, and like Bynum himself said, "Kobe stunted my growth", Bynum, one of 3 capable franchise Bigs that Kobe clashed with, (Shaq, Howard) being a rude and disruptive leader hurts your team.

And no, that's not what Jordan did.

[Lebron23]

This is probably the dumbest thread in this forum. LBJ is still a 4x NBA MVP, and 2x Finals MVP, and 2x NBA Champion. You cannot take that away from hm. Next year he'll be back again in the NBA Finals and wins his 3rd finals MVP.

[riseagainst]

This is probably the dumbest thread in this forum. LBJ is still a 4x NBA MVP, and 2x Finals MVP, and 2x NBA Champion. You cannot take that away from hm. Next year he'll be back again in the NBA Finals and wins his 3rd finals MVP.

are you going to be the fan of another team next year?