Horace Grant: LeBron's Heat no match for MJ's Bulls

[jzek]

With four more wins, the Miami Heat will match one of Michael Jordan's greatest feats -- three straight NBA championships -- but former Bull Horace Grant says that doesn't mean LeBron James' team could have beaten those Chicago teams.

"The Heat wouldn't have had a chance," Grant said Tuesday on WSCR-AM in Chicago. "We would have locked them up. We would have locked them up. Especially with the rules today, Michael would have had a field day."

The Heat are in their fourth straight NBA Finals and will face the San Antonio Spurs for the second year in a row. Game 1 is Thursday night in San Antonio.

Jordan led the Bulls to three straight NBA championships from 1991 to '93 and then did it again upon coming back from retirement with three titles from 1996 to '98. The Los Angeles Lakers were the last team to win three championships in a row (2000-02).

Grant was part of the Bulls core that won the first three championships before he left as a free agent for the Orlando Magic.

Who will Grant be pulling for in these NBA Finals?

"My fingers and toes are crossed that San Antonio wins just for the fact of being a fan of [coach Gregg] Popovich and the way that organization carries itself and the guys on the floor: Tim Duncan, [Manu] Ginobili, [Tony] Parker, [Kawhi] Leonard," Grant said. "I'm a big San Antonio fan."


http://i.imgur.com/7ha5Gdn.png

[Real14]

Horace aint lying:applause:

[BlkMambaGOAT]

Horace Grant speaks the truth.

At it's even more convincing since Grant is tiers above Lebron.

[ArbitraryWater]

Didn't he say something along the lines of LeBron > MJ? Am I mixing something up?

[jlip]

Yawn...This happens every generation. Magic and Bird said that the 90's Bulls would not have beaten their squads. Bill Russell said that no team from the 80's would have beaten his Celtics.

[GeeWiz]

This really isn't close, the Bulls were incredibly physical, had the greatest player ever, and a lock down defender who would cause LeBron some real trouble, the Heat would be lucky to win 1 game in a seven game series.

Not taking anything away from the Heat though, they are a great team, but they are just outmatched in this one.

[Mr Feeny]

Didn't he say something along the lines of LeBron > MJ? Am I mixing something up?

Definitely not. He's stated several times that Jordan was the greatest ever, and this was a guy who DISPISED Jordan when they were both playing for the Bulls. Bob Greene's book about the Bulls' first three-peat mentions several examples of the animosity between them.

[PJR]

Yawn...This happens every generation. Magic and Bird said that the 90's Bulls would not have beaten their squads. Bill Russell said that no team from the 80's would have beaten his Celtics.

Yep. :oldlol:

http://youtu.be/p57WjbKSoJ0

[russwest0]

No shit.

Whats next Horace? Gonna tell us that water is wet? :oldlol:

[J Shuttlesworth]

But I thought the Heat are the most stacked team ever? :biggums:

[Solefade]

oh but when Scottie Pippen says Lebron can beat MJ it's BS am i rite?

[Real14]

But I thought the Heat are the most stacked team ever? :biggums:
they are:coleman:

[Calabis]

I like how all players and coaches always bring up the "rules" of today, yet morons on here act like its harder for quick guards today:roll:

[Real14]

oh but when Scottie Pippen says Lebron can beat MJ it's BS am i rite?
scottie was high.

[Calabis]

oh but when Scottie Pippen says Lebron can beat MJ it's BS am i rite?

In a one on one game? I'm sure he can, just like MJ would beat him as well...this isn't one on one though so what is your point?

[NumberSix]

Bulls = stacked

[Mr Feeny]

But I thought the Heat are the most stacked team ever? :biggums:

Having the best player on the floor always gives you the chance to beat a more stacked team. Jordan's Bulls had no business beating the 98 Jazz, but did so because of Jordan. Uoi could argue that the Spurs are more stacked than Miami. Wouldn't stop Miami from beating them, as they have the best player on the series.

[J Shuttlesworth]

they are:coleman:
So they're the most stacked, but they'd lose to another team? How can you say a team is the most stacked of all time, and then say they'd get destroyed by another? Pick a side :facepalm

[Marlo_Stanfield]

LeBron would reck havoc on these skinny ass nikkas, especially if they play him one on one.
would be a bloodbath:coleman:

[Real14]

So they're the most stacked, but they'd lose to another team? How can you say a team is the most stacked of all time, and then say they'd get destroyed by another? Pick a side :facepalm
simply cuz Jordan's bulls have more fight. Their I.Q and aggressiveness outweighz that stacked team called tha cheat. If Dirk and mavs can do it why cant Jordan and bulls?:coleman:

[Mr Feeny]

LeBron would reck havoc on these skinny ass nikkas, especially if they play him one on one.
would be a bloodbath:coleman:Kobe would wreck havoc on Lebron 1 on 1. Luckily basketball is a 5 on 5 sport and that is what makes Lebron a better basketball player than Kobe (he plays better as part of a team):cheers:

[J Shuttlesworth]

simply cuz Jordan's bulls have more fight. Their I.Q and aggressiveness outweighz that stacked team called tha cheat. If Dirk and mavs can do it why cant Jordan and bulls?:coleman:
If the Heat lack IQ and aggressiveness, how can you call them the most stacked team of all time? :facepalm

Contradicting yourself all over the place here

[Solefade]

In a one on one game? I'm sure he can, just like MJ would beat him as well...this isn't one on one though so what is your point?

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=6599168

[Real14]

If the Heat like IQ and aggressiveness, how can you call them the most stacked team of all time? :facepalm

Contradicting yourself all over the place here
most stacked meaning talent and potential.

[Denitron]

:applause:

[J Shuttlesworth]

most stacked meaning talent and potential.
You just said they're low IQ and lack aggressiveness, meaning they're not that talented and don't have much potential :facepalm

[Calabis]

Yep. :oldlol:

http://youtu.be/p57WjbKSoJ0

From Lebron himself:

"Hopefully the league can figure out one way where it can go back to the '80s where you had three or four All-Stars, three or four superstars, three or four Hall-of-Famers on the same team," James said. "The league was great. It wasn't as watered down as it is [today]."

[fpliii]

One of the most underrated + underappreciated players in recent memory. Grant. :applause:

[Solefade]

most stacked meaning talent and potential.


thats like any team with lebron on it with decent talent :oldlol:

[Calabis]

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=6599168

James said Jordan is unquestionably the greatest basketball player of all time

So I don't know what your point is

[HoopsFanNumero1]

The team with the best player would win. So Heat in 6.

[ImKobe]

The team with the best player would win. So Heat in 6.
:facepalm

[bdreason]

In other news; water is wet.

[kamil]

Yawn...This happens every generation. Magic and Bird said that the 90's Bulls would not have beaten their squads. Bill Russell said that no team from the 80's would have beaten his Celtics.

Except even todays younger generation recognizes that the Heat are no match for the 90s Bulls. The only people that think otherwise are part time Heat fans or obsessed LeBron* d!ckriders.

[greymatter]

It wouldn't be a case of complete domination. Heat have the better offense, but are clearly a rung or two lower on defense, and would get raped on the boards by +10 or more every game.

Heat would probably lose in 6 to the first 3 peat team, lose in 4 or 5 to the 95-97 team.

[atljonesbro]

Most players are delusional about their era. Horace Grant is no exception.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Nostalgia Critic v.s. Prisoner of the Moment

"In my day, up hill both ways ..."

"Today it's much more difficult ..."

Blah, blah. Remove all that crap, and Grant actually has a point. These two teams matchup extremely well. Whether it's the early 90's 3-peat Bulls, or the 2nd 3-Peat Bulls.

BJ Armstrong v.s. Chalmers
prime MJ v.s. old Wade
prime Pippen v.s. prime LeBron
Horace Grant v.s. Chris Bosh
Cartwright v.s. Anderson

They're molded very similar talent wise. Riley did this on purpose. He based the current Heat off the MJ and Pippen dynasty Bulls team.

Even though MJ, and Pippen were past their prime for 2nd three peat, that team had more cohesive basketball talent. I actually think the '96, and '97 team win a series with current Heat fairly easily.

Given the 2014 Heat's superior bench compared to the '93 Bulls, they have that advantage. But is prime LeBron, with old sidekick Wade, enough to overcome coinciding prime of MJ AND Pippen?

I personally doubt it.

Chicago has the 1st, and 3rd best players in the series. Plus a better coach. More mental, and physical toughness.

[kamil]

LeBron would reck havoc on these skinny ass nikkas, especially if they play him one on one.
would be a bloodbath:coleman:

Skinny? LOL Horace Grant was 6'10" and 245lbs, only 5 pounds lighter than LeBrons* listed weight, but also has 2 inches on him. Him alone would be able to counter LeBron but then he'd STILL have to go through Cartwright (not exactly a monster centre but still another obstacle). But hey, its not like the smaller guys were weak on defense with Pippen and MJ as the greatest defensive 1-2 punch of all time. And yet you're still capable of overlooking Horace's defensive game? The dude was 4 time NBA all defensive second team. You're either ridiculously bias as flat out ignorant of 90s basketball.

Horace hits the nail on the head when he says they'd lock down Miami.

The only reason why you deny this is because you're a delusional Heat fan.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yawn...This happens every generation. Magic and Bird said that the 90's Bulls would not have beaten their squads. Bill Russell said that no team from the 80's would have beaten his Celtics.

Good point.


Jordan's Bulls had no business beating the 98 Jazz

:wtf: They had the same records, the Bulls beat them the previous year.


So they're the most stacked, but they'd lose to another team? How can you say a team is the most stacked of all time, and then say they'd get destroyed by another?

Exactly. LeBron haters can't have it both ways: claim the Heat are stacked to an unprecedented degree and then turn around and say they would lose to every other all-time great dynasty in history. :lol


From Lebron himself:

"Hopefully the league can figure out one way where it can go back to the '80s where you had three or four All-Stars, three or four superstars, three or four Hall-of-Famers on the same team," James said. "The league was great. It wasn't as watered down as it is [today]."

The watering down occurred in the late 80's and 90's. Malone and Stockton went further in their old age than they did in their youth because having 2 all-time greats on the same team meant for more in 1998 than it did in a deeper league.


James said Jordan is unquestionably the greatest basketball player of all time


The keyword is "is." LeBron, who is only 29, also wants to surpass MJ.

With respect to Grant's statement, yes, the Bulls would defeat the Heat. Jordan/Pippen/Grant and LeBron/Wade/Bosh are essentially washes--but the Bulls had more depth. Remember, it was 4 bench players (plus Pippen) who erased a 17 point deficit in the fourth quarter of Game 6 of the 92' Finals. Can anyone imagine the Heat bench ever doing the same, let alone in the context of the Finals?

The Heat struggled to beat the Pacers last year in the ECF, the Spurs in the Finals. The year before that they struggled to beat Boston in the ECF and had a fairly tough series against the Pacers in the ECSF. In 2011 they lost to Dallas. They would not beat the 1991-1993 Bulls.

Still, the facts illustrate the Heat are not an unusually stacked team. They win by the minimum required, it seems, with LeBron's greatness being what gets them over the finish line. They are not a dominant team; the Bulls were.

[mark henson 123]

jordan wouldn't beat 2006 young wade and shaq!
wade would dominate jordan:coleman: 2006!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BlkMambaGOAT]

Having the best player on the floor always gives you the chance to beat a more stacked team. Jordan's Bulls had no business beating the 98 Jazz, but did so because of Jordan. Uoi could argue that the Spurs are more stacked than Miami. Wouldn't stop Miami from beating them, as they have the best player on the series.
:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:
So you saying odds were against the team that pulled off 3 straight 60+ win seasons, winning the chip the past two times and 3-peated b4 that? I've never heard of a team that won 3+ rings (let alone an actual 3-peat)in a decade that isn't stacked. I like MJ, but the Bulls didn't upset the 98 Jazz. Everyone knew MJ was going to win, the only thing in question was how long the series would last.

[Calabis]

jordan wouldn't beat 2006 young wade and shaq!
wade would dominate jordan:coleman: 2006!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And someone had to come in a just fvck up the thread....congrats..

http://i.imgur.com/1HWQIPa.gif

[mark henson 123]

Good point.



:wtf: They had the same records, the Bulls beat them the previous year.



Exactly. LeBron haters can't have it both ways: claim the Heat are stacked to an unprecedented degree and then turn around and say they would lose to every other all-time great dynasty in history. :lol



The watering down occurred in the late 80's and 90's. Malone and Stockton went further in their old age than they did in their youth because having 2 all-time greats on the same team meant for more in 1998 than it did in a deeper league.



The keyword is "is." LeBron, who is only 29, also wants to surpass MJ.

With respect to Grant's statement, yes, the Bulls would defeat the Heat. Jordan/Pippen/Grant and LeBron/Wade/Bosh are essentially washes--but the Bulls had more depth. Remember, it was 4 bench players (plus Pippen) who erased a 17 point deficit in the fourth quarter of Game 6 of the 92' Finals. Can anyone imagine the Heat bench ever doing the same, let alone in the context of the Finals?

The Heat struggled to beat the Pacers last year in the ECF, the Spurs in the Finals. The year before that they struggled to beat Boston in the ECF and had a fairly tough series against the Pacers in the ECSF. In 2011 they lost to Dallas. They would not beat the 1991-1993 Bulls.

Still, the facts illustrate the Heat are not an unusually stacked team. They win by the minimum required, it seems, with LeBron's greatness being what gets them over the finish line. They are not a dominant team; the Bulls were.


wade,bosh,leborn would crush the bulls in six!
LeBron james would totally dominate Jordan!
hes bigger,quicker,and faster!:coleman:

[SamuraiSWISH]

So you saying odds were against the team that pulled off 3 straight 60+ win seasons, winning the chip the past two times and 3-peated b4 that?.
I can tell you weren't watching ball in '97, or '98. The Jazz gave the Bulls a run for their money in 1997. In 1998? MJ was 35. Visibly winded. Just willed Chicago to the Finals in a grueling 7 game series v.s. well rounded Indiana team. Pippen was busy being absolute garbage offensively. Limited by back injuries. They didn't have home court advantage. A lot of people, including actual Bulls fans were fearful of the odds in the Finals v.s. a Jazz team who were at that point comfortable, and confident playing us.

[mark henson 123]

I can tell you weren't watching ball in '97, or '98. The Jazz gave the Bulls a run for their money in 1997. In 1998? MJ was 35. Visibly winded. Just willed Chicago to the Finals in a grueling 7 game series v.s. well rounded Indiana team. Pippen was busy being absolute garbage offensively. Limited by back injuries. They didn't have home court advantage. A lot of people, including actual Bulls fans were fearful of the odds in the Finals v.s. a Jazz team who were at that point comfortable, and confident playing us.


Jordan retired in 1998
cause he was fearful the younger would destroy him!:coleman:

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan retired in 1998
cause he was fearful the younger would destroy him!:coleman:

MJ was clear in why he retired: he refused to keep playing unless the Bulls brought Pippen and Jackson back--because he knew what would happen without them...when the Bulls finally let them go, MJ made good on his threat.

Can you imagine LeBron retiring because Wade and Spo were not retained? Exactly. LeBron knows he can compete with any shmoes he has, like he did in Cleveland. MJ knew without Pippen, Jackson, Rodman the Bulls would be lucky to be .500, even with MJ and Kukoc.

[Paul George 24]

jordan wouldn't beat 2006 young wade and shaq!
wade would dominate jordan:coleman: 2006!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
wade would not get calls against jordan :no:

[Paul George 24]

wade,bosh,leborn would crush the bulls in six!
LeBron james would totally dominate Jordan!
hes bigger,quicker,and faster!:coleman:
no.he is not AS athletic as 91's jordan ,I doubt Lebron would hv this hangtime :lol

http://www.morningprint.com/updata/user_img/nanna20140604094450.gif

[Paul George 24]

MJ was clear in why he retired: he refused to keep playing unless the Bulls brought Pippen and Jackson back--because he knew what would happen without them...when the Bulls finally let them go, MJ made good on his threat.

Can you imagine LeBron retiring because Wade and Spo were not retained? Exactly. LeBron knows he can compete with any shmoes he has, like he did in Cleveland. MJ knew without Pippen, Jackson, Rodman the Bulls would be lucky to be .500, even with MJ and Kukoc.

LOL :roll:

[mark henson 123]

no.he is not AS athletic as 91's jordan ,I doubt Lebron would hv this hangtime :lol

http://www.morningprint.com/updata/user_img/nanna20140604094450.gif
james would pack that weak stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:coleman:

[mark henson 123]

LOL :roll:
pippen and Jackson came back in 1999!
jordan didn't comeb ack cause rod m:coleman: an retired troll!

[Paul George 24]

MJ was clear in why he retired: he refused to keep playing unless the Bulls brought Pippen and Jackson back--because he knew what would happen without them...when the Bulls finally let them go, MJ made good on his threat.

Can you imagine LeBron retiring because Wade and Spo were not retained? Exactly. LeBron knows he can compete with any shmoes he has, like he did in Cleveland. MJ knew without Pippen, Jackson, Rodman the Bulls would be lucky to be .500, even with MJ and Kukoc.

HE WOULD FIND OTHER SUPERSTARS TEAM UP WITH HIM :oldlol:

[Paul George 24]

pippen and Jackson came back in 1999!
jordan didn't comeb ack cause rod m:coleman: an retired troll!

IF YES PLZ EXPLAIN WHY HE PLAYS FoR WIZARDS IN 2001,2002 :banana:

[Paul George 24]

james would pack that weak stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:coleman:

JAMES' BODY CONTROL IS NOT EVEN AS GOOD AS KOBE,JUST LIKE VINCE CARTER

[PickernRoller]

I think people need to cut Lebron slack when we talk about eras and relative era strengh (competition, quality players)...

It's not Lebron's fault that his prime years were in a weak era. Albeit his collusion made the East weaker but overall that conference was always a joke.

The only problem I have w/ Lebron are his stans propping him up to unrealistic levels. The kid simply doesn't stack up w/ earlier greats nor does his team.

That however is no fault of his own - this is simply his generation. He's the best player in the league of this era (2010-2014) and has the chance to be the best player of this decade.

[J Shuttlesworth]

I think the Bulls would beat them but more because of match ups. Remember that the Heat are built to dominate this email of weak big men. A guy like Rodman would give the Heat a ton of trouble

[NBAplayoffs2001]

I've really never liked Horace Grant's feedback about the teams he played with. I always felt he was so heavily biased for his 3 championships instead of the solid playoff runs with the magic and the ring with the lakers in 2001. IMO, he was a perfect fit though for the lakers, going to samaki walker the next year wasn't a great transition. I felt Grant knew his role better after so much experience in the triangle offense, Samaki was slightly more athletic but Grant was a consistent player, if I remember correctly 9pts/7rbs. I always liked him but I always felt that Dennis Rodman and that Robert Horry (his laker backup/rotation) were more versatile

[NBAplayoffs2001]

I think the Bulls would beat them but more because of match ups. Remember that the Heat are built to dominate this email of weak big men. A guy like Rodman would give the Heat a ton of trouble

I could see Chris Anderson and Rodman going at it, at least a few technicals in the series at least :lol

[Threethrows]

Every generation thinks the ones that follow are always inferior, nothing new just ego inflated feeling superiority and nostalgia.

That said, yeah Jordan's Bulls would probably win the best of 3 series in 3 years vs LeBron's Heat. That doesn't mean the Bulls would sweep or even win every series though.

According to the analysts of ISH though, which are in a class of their own, even though the Heat are the most stacked and cheating team of all time they are practice fodder for all of the great teams before them!

[Paul George 24]

JORDAN IS MUCH BETTER THAN LEBRON ON BOTH ENDS :bowdown:

[Carbine]

The Heat will be remembered as one of the best teams ever.

But this comes down to matchups. You couldn't draw up a better defender to guard LeBron than Pippen or Jordan on Wade. Horace Grant or Rodman on Bosh.

[Roundball_Rock]

According to the analysts of ISH though, which are in a class of their own, even though the Heat are the most stacked and cheating team of all time they are practice fodder for all of the great teams before them!

Exactly. They cannot make up their mind.

[juju151111]

MJ was clear in why he retired: he refused to keep playing unless the Bulls brought Pippen and Jackson back--because he knew what would happen without them...when the Bulls finally let them go, MJ made good on his threat.

Can you imagine LeBron retiring because Wade and Spo were not retained? Exactly. LeBron knows he can compete with any shmoes he has, like he did in Cleveland. MJ knew without Pippen, Jackson, Rodman the Bulls would be lucky to be .500, even with MJ and Kukoc.
http://m.bkref.com/m?p=XXboxscoresXX199006030DET.html
Without Pippen you say at 35 years old with a broken knuckle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGuiu88Bwbs Pippen gets injured in crucial game 6 in 98 Mj makes the offense and defensive plays to seal

[LeBird]

The Heat will be remembered as one of the best teams ever.

But this comes down to matchups. You couldn't draw up a better defender to guard LeBron than Pippen or Jordan on Wade. Horace Grant or Rodman on Bosh.

While this is true, it kind of goes back the same way - Wade and Lebron are fantastic defensively too. As great as defence is, offence matters more IMO (or at least is easier to plan with) in basketball. Wade, Lebron or Jordan are going to get theirs no matter what. Even Pippen will do well.

The big match-up may be the Bosh v Grant/Rodman one. It's probably more a tactical difference these days. The Bulls didn't really play with a bonafide offensive big man in the paint - which is probably what would cause Heat the most problems - although their rebounding prowess was far better than the Heat. And that could work in Miami's favour since they space better offensively and are more adept at hitting 3s.

[Roundball_Rock]

I am going by what MJ himself was saying every summer. :confusedshrug: He refused to play without them.

MJ did not want to have to rebuild, which implies he knew they would not be contenders absent Pippen and Jackson...


Michael Jordan is taking Phil Jackson's departure as a sign the Chicago Bulls are rebuilding. And he wants no part of that. "I don't want to start over. I'm pretty sure losing Phil is a sign of that," Jordan said at a news conference before teeing off at the Michael Jordan Celebrity Golf Classic. "So I can tell you where my mind is leaning in some respects. ... I don't want a rebuilding process."

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/default.aspx?pageid=438&n=jordan-says-he-wont-stick-around-if-bulls-rebuild-1998-06-29

[juju151111]

I am going by what MJ himself was saying every summer. :confusedshrug: He refused to play without them.

MJ did not want to have to rebuild, which implies he knew they would not be contenders absent Pippen and Jackson...



http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/default.aspx?pageid=438&n=jordan-says-he-wont-stick-around-if-bulls-rebuild-1998-06-29
He was 35- going to 36 dummy:facepalm Who would want a rebuilding process at that age:rolleyes:

[Carbine]

While this is true, it kind of goes back the same way - Wade and Lebron are fantastic defensively too. As great as defence is, offence matters more IMO (or at least is easier to plan with) in basketball. Wade, Lebron or Jordan are going to get theirs no matter what. Even Pippen will do well.

The big match-up may be the Bosh v Grant/Rodman one. It's probably more a tactical difference these days. The Bulls didn't really play with a bonafide offensive big man in the paint - which is probably what would cause Heat the most problems - although their rebounding prowess was far better than the Heat. And that could work in Miami's favour since they space better offensively and are more adept at hitting 3s.

"Getting theirs" is a very broad term. It's about making it as difficult as possible for them. Pippen is basically the perfect player to combat LeBron.

Wade is not a good enough defender to do much to Jordan. If I had to pick the perfect player to defend Jordan, Wade is not close to the type I would want.

On the flip side, Jordan is one of the first guys that come to mind that would be the perfect defenders to go against Wade and his attacking style.

I'm not suggesting it would be a 4-0 sweep, but I think how well the Bulls match up to the Heat would be apparent from the start.

[LeBird]

"Getting theirs" is a very broad term. It's about making it as difficult as possible for them. Pippen is basically the perfect player to combat LeBron.

Wade is not a good enough defender to do much to Jordan. If I had to pick the perfect player to defend Jordan, Wade is not close to the type I would want.

It's meant to show that defence has a lower ceiling of effect on an individual level than offence. It's better IMO to be 9/10 scorer and 6/10 defender than the other way round. Ultimately, if you're talking about match-ups, Lebron is still gonna easily win that match up.

I also think you're underselling Wade. A fit Wade is definitely someone I'd want to defend Jordan. Tire him out by being great offensively, and athletic and smart enough to hang with Jordan on the defensive end - no one is stopping Jordan anyway.


On the flip side, Jordan is one of the first guys that come to mind that would be the perfect defenders to go against Wade and his attacking style.

I'm not suggesting it would be a 4-0 sweep, but I think how well the Bulls match up to the Heat would be apparent from the start.

If the series was run several times, I think the Bulls win most of them (I might change my mind on that if the Heat keep winning) but the Heat would win a few themselves. Horace's claim that they'd spank the Heat is just nonsense though.

[GimmeThat]

so the collusion to help MJ win a ring was worse than that of Lebron


well, I learned something today.

[funnystuff]

5000 votes :rolleyes:

[Beastmode88]

so the collusion to help MJ win a ring was worse than that of Lebron


well, I learned something today.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Kingwillball]

Obviously no match for Bulls if the Spurs are Favorites against them.. :rolleyes:

[Beastmode88]

Obviously no match for Bulls if the Spurs are Favorites against them.. :rolleyes:

favored by america lol. popularity contest.

[plowking]

It'd be interesting.

Jordan wasn't the best ballhandler, and neither was Pippen exactly, and the Heat do a great job of hounding the ball. Then again, the rebounding disparity would be huge, and the Heat would have to double Jordan due to his quick first step, leaving 3 point shooters open.
At the same time, the Heat have more shooters, and would also have to double Bron due to his size advantage on Pippen.

Toss up, since Bulls don't exactly have a brute big that can punish the Heat, which is what we struggle with.

[Carbine]

It'd be interesting.

Jordan wasn't the best ballhandler, and neither was Pippen exactly, and the Heat do a great job of hounding the ball. Then again, the rebounding disparity would be huge, and the Heat would have to double Jordan due to his quick first step, leaving 3 point shooters open.
At the same time, the Heat have more shooters, and would also have to double Bron due to his size advantage on Pippen.

Toss up, since Bulls don't exactly have a brute big that can punish the Heat, which is what we struggle with.


LeBron isn't good enough down low to get good looks for himself or his team consistently vs Pippen.

Pip was very strong. Look what he did to a superior low post player at the time in Magic for the finals.

LeBron would struggle to take Pippen off the dribble. This is the greatest perimeter defender the league has ever seen, IMO.

LeBron would have to rely on pick and rolls vs. Pippen.

[eliteballer]

It'd be interesting.

Jordan wasn't the best ballhandler, and neither was Pippen exactly, and the Heat do a great job of hounding the ball. Then again, the rebounding disparity would be huge, and the Heat would have to double Jordan due to his quick first step, leaving 3 point shooters open.
At the same time, the Heat have more shooters, and would also have to double Bron due to his size advantage on Pippen.

Toss up, since Bulls don't exactly have a brute big that can punish the Heat, which is what we struggle with.


Uhh..both are better ballhandlers than lebron.

[juju151111]

It'd be interesting.

Jordan wasn't the best ballhandler, and neither was Pippen exactly, and the Heat do a great job of hounding the ball. Then again, the rebounding disparity would be huge, and the Heat would have to double Jordan due to his quick first step, leaving 3 point shooters open.
At the same time, the Heat have more shooters, and would also have to double Bron due to his size advantage on Pippen.

Toss up, since Bulls don't exactly have a brute big that can punish the Heat, which is what we struggle with.
Lol at not good ballhandlers.

[plowking]

LeBron isn't good enough down low to get good looks for himself or his team consistently vs Pippen.

Pip was very strong. Look what he did to a superior low post player at the time in Magic for the finals.

LeBron would struggle to take Pippen off the dribble. This is the greatest perimeter defender the league has ever seen, IMO.

LeBron would have to rely on pick and rolls vs. Pippen.

Nah. Lebron's the best in the league down low.
He is the best in the league at sealing his man, and he has more weight on Pippen than Magic ever did.
Lebron is a better post player than Magic was too.

I don't care about hooks and pretty plays, Bron puts the ball in the hoop from the post at an insanely efficient clip. His drop step with single coverage is unstoppable.

[plowking]

Uhh..both are better ballhandlers than lebron.

:facepalm

Holy shit at this forum...

[FPJ]

Uhh..both are better ballhandlers than lebron.

Yea, officially the dumbest post i've seen on this site. Best be trolling.

[Mr Feeny]

Uhh..both are better ballhandlers than lebron.

Wow.

[Dragonyeuw]

Jordan retired in 1998
cause he was fearful the younger would destroy him!:coleman:

Is that why he came back 3 years later and played till 40?

:facepalm this fcuking board.....

[bizil]

When it comes to the first three peat Bulls, I think the Heat have a damn good chance. Horace Grant while a great defender was a face up midrange big man in terms of scoring. He wouldn't beat Bosh up in the post and rebounding wise Grant was very good, but he wasn't no Rodman. So pump you brakes Horace on that realm. And Bill Cartwright was past his prime so when Bosh plays center, I wouldn't be worried about Big Bill too much in terms of scoring or dominating on the glass. And imagine Bill trying to guard Bosh on the perimeter! LOL

Of course the wing matchup would be epic with MJ-Pippen vs. Wade-Bron. Sure MJ has the edge on Wade, but Wade along with Kobe are the top two challenges MJ would face at SG. On both sides of the rock in the two way sense, they would challenge MJ more than any other SG's EVER! Bron FOR SURE has the edge on Pippen, even though Pippen would make Bron work harder for his points than any other SF ever. But the key is Bosh would get his on Horace. Horace was an All League caliber defensive PF, but Bosh has the perimeter scoring skillset of an elite SF. In terms of three point range, the midrange game, and even slashing. Bosh is a long 6'10 or 6'11 and could get his shot off. Back then, there weren't many 6'10 or 6'11 PF's in the L like Bosh in terms of scoring skillset. The only ones I can think of are Chambers or a Derrick Coleman. But the Heat's bench was better than the Bulls bench in that first three peat run. Bron's versatility would be a major factor too. He's BIGGER than Horace Grant in terms of weight and could move to the PF. Forcing the Bulls to go small, and playing right into Miami's hands.

The Bulls SECOND three peat run that had Rodman, Kukoc, and Harper would be the team to topple the Heat. Rodman was such a beast on the glass that he would exploit that to the max. Plus u could throw Rodman, MJ, Harper, and Pippen at D-Wade and Bron on defense. Thats the team that would get it on the Heat, even though it would be a great series. The Heat's lack of toughness at the power positions would be exploited heavily in this series. The 1st three peat Bulls team couldn't exploit that in the same fashion.

[poido123]

:facepalm

Holy shit at this forum...


This is where you lose people Plowking. If you just had an ounce of objectivity, people would take you more seriously.

Pippen and Jordan were better ballhandlers, there's no slight in that. Both had awesome handles.


I'll happily show you video to show the difference.

[bizil]

It's meant to show that defence has a lower ceiling of effect on an individual level than offence. It's better IMO to be 9/10 scorer and 6/10 defender than the other way round. Ultimately, if you're talking about match-ups, Lebron is still gonna easily win that match up.

I also think you're underselling Wade. A fit Wade is definitely someone I'd want to defend Jordan. Tire him out by being great offensively, and athletic and smart enough to hang with Jordan on the defensive end - no one is stopping Jordan anyway.



If the series was run several times, I think the Bulls win most of them (I might change my mind on that if the Heat keep winning) but the Heat would win a few themselves. Horace's claim that they'd spank the Heat is just nonsense though.

I agree with u! Wade at his best or fit has the foot speed, smarts, and athletic ability to hold his own. But like u said, MJ will get his on anybody. But it's about making him the great scorers LESS EFFICIENT, and Wade at his best has the physical tools, toughness, and competitive nature to do as such. At 6'4, I always thought of Wade as a mix of David Thompson and Sidney Moncrief. As great as MJ is, that's a tough matchup.

And people ALSO need to realize that Bron FOR SURE would see time defending MJ. Pippen as great as he is isn't the alpha dog MJ is BY FAR! So u could put Wade on Pippen while Bron sees time on MJ.

[plowking]

This is where you lose people Plowking. If you just had an ounce of objectivity, people would take you more seriously.

Pippen and Jordan were better ballhandlers, there's no slight in that. Both had awesome handles.


I'll happily show you video to show the difference.

No. They aren't.

Hence why posters two posters both pointed out that eliteballer is an idiot. Even the biggest Jordan fans would give Bron a decent sized edge in ball handling.

This forum is retarded, honestly. Some posters on here are flat out idiots. We've had dudes on here say MJ was a better 3 point shooter than Kobe and Bron, he just chose not to shoot it. Same with passing with comparing MJ and Bron. In fact, I think you were one of them.
Better off posting at RealGM, at least they have some proper discussion.

[poido123]

No. They aren't.

Hence why posters two posters both pointed out that eliteballer is an idiot. Even the biggest Jordan fans would give Bron a decent sized edge in ball handling.

This forum is retarded, honestly. Some posters on here are flat out idiots. We've had dudes on here say MJ was a better 3 point shooter than Kobe and Bron, he just chose not to shoot it. Same with passing with comparing MJ and Bron. In fact, I think you were one of them.
Better off posting at RealGM, at least they have some proper discussion.


Go to RealGM. Seriously, you just want everyone to agree with your obvious Lebron bias.

Jordan had big hands, he was able to move the ball wherever he pleased. His ball handling and ball control is a big reason why he was able to blow by opponents and finish. That and an awesome quick first step.

If Lebron isn't bulldozing his way to the hoop, he's passing the ball off. I've seen him time and time again jack up a shot or pass the ball off because he can't shake off the defender with his handles. I think you confuse ballhandling with overpowering guys to the hole. Lebron has a pretty long stride too.

Both Pippen and Jordan had great ball control. Pippen had a long quick stride on his first step, Jordan as we know had an awesome first step. They didn't really have to use a lot of showman handles like a Kobe or Jason Williams for example. Their first step and long strides to the hoop were unstoppable most of the time.

Both Pippen and Jordan's handles off the ground and around the basket was truly amazing. Jordan could do numerous fakes, change direction, up and under shots and delayed shots that Lebron simply can't do.

[Dragonyeuw]

Lebron and Pippen are pretty comparable handling on the break( Bron being faster of course), in the halfcourt all three of them took care of the ball well, not particularly turnover-prone. I think Pippen was a bit better with the triangle than MJ, hence why he primarily handled the ball( and of course, it freed up Jordan to concentrate more on scoring and less on facilitating).

None of them had/have 'and-1' style dribbling skills, visually their dribbling styles are pretty basic. I'm curious as to the logic being used who say Jordan/Pippen are better than Lebron, or vice versa, when it comes to ballhandling. What criteria is being used? Honest question....

[russwest0]

lmao, people think that lebron is a better ball handler than mj or scottie?

the **** are they smoking. the dude gets ripped just dribbling at the top of the key like once or twice per game. imagine him playing in an era where players could actually handcheck him too, where handles were more important.

mj could average 40 in this era if he wanted to, the rules are way too soft and perimiter oriented.

the bulls would shit on the heat and the primary reason why is that michael jordan would absolutely dominate leflop james.

[poido123]

Lebron and Pippen are pretty comparable handling on the break( Bron being faster of course), in the halfcourt all three of them took care of the ball well, not particularly turnover-prone. I think Pippen was a bit better with the triangle than MJ, hence why he primarily handled the ball( and of course, it freed up Jordan to concentrate more on scoring and less on facilitating).

None of them had/have 'and-1' style dribbling skills, visually their dribbling styles are pretty basic. I'm curious as to the logic being used who say Jordan/Pippen are better than Lebron, or vice versa, when it comes to ballhandling. What criteria is being used? Honest question....


Jordan has some showman handles. Just didn't really need to use them with a lethal first step :confusedshrug:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5kMT6naqb4

You're right. On the most part, you never really saw any of them with the And-1 dribbling skills, however if we are talking about handles, we have to talk about what they can do when they leave the floor to score right? Finishing around the basket, hand fakes, up and under shots, hanging in the air delayed shots etc etc

[LeBird]

Jordan has some showman handles. Just didn't really need to use them with a lethal first step :confusedshrug:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5kMT6naqb4

You're right. On the most part, you never really saw any of them with the And-1 dribbling skills, however if we are talking about handles, we have to talk about what they can do when they leave the floor to score right? Finishing around the basket, hand fakes, up and under shots, hanging in the air delayed shots etc etc

Hilarious. Jordan was the best at everything, don't you know. He just didn't want to use his skills. :lol

[poido123]

Hilarious. Jordan was the best at everything, don't you know. He just didn't want to use his skills. :lol


I think this is where you lack understanding.


Have you or do you play ball yourself?


Jordan's first step allowed him to blow by opponents, WITHOUT having to do a killer cross over Tim Hardaway/Allen Iverson Style. His body control and speed got him past his opponents more often than not, without having to do some crazy And-1 Dribble move.

[russwest0]

pippen and jordan both averaged below 3 turnovers per game for their careers. lebron has never had a season with less than 3 turnovers per game.

plus pippen and jordan did it an era where just getting touched wasn't a foul. you could actually breathe on those guys. plus their games on film look much more graceful than lebrons.

[Paul George 24]

Hilarious. Jordan was the best at everything, don't you know. He just didn't want to use his skills. :lol

crossover is overrated :no:

[Paul George 24]

No. They aren't.

Hence why posters two posters both pointed out that eliteballer is an idiot. Even the biggest Jordan fans would give Bron a decent sized edge in ball handling.

This forum is retarded, honestly. Some posters on here are flat out idiots. We've had dudes on here say MJ was a better 3 point shooter than Kobe and Bron, he just chose not to shoot it. Same with passing with comparing MJ and Bron. In fact, I think you were one of them.
Better off posting at RealGM, at least they have some proper discussion.

did leflop ever avg 8 boards,8 asts along with 3 steals and 32 ppg :banana:

[j3lademaster]

But I thought the Heat are the most stacked team ever? :biggums:How stacked a team is is relative to their competition. Would kobe win a title in the early 00's or the 90's with Gasol as his 2nd option? No: Gasol would probably not even be a top 10 pf/c in the 90's and would certainly be behind shaq, duncan, kg in terms of paint players early 00's. But Between 08-10, gasol had a legit case as the best pf/c in the league (outplayed Dwight straight up in the finals).

Same thing now. With how embarassing Haren is in the playoffs no way he's better than Wade. You pretty much have the best current player in the league, the best sg and a top 5 pf. Would Current Wade have been the best sg in the early 00's in a league with prime tmac, kobe, vince, ai... I think whether Wade would even be top 5 is a better discussion, but he doesn't play in that league; he plays in one with Injured kobe and manufactored haren as his main competition. It's all relative to your competition, and the Heat definitely has a case as one of the most stacked teams of all time.

Also, why does it matter that people think your team is stacked? It's basically saying your team is very damn good and you take it like an insult lol. Isn't that a compliment? Unless you have an agenda to prop up one individual player i guess.

[poido123]

How stacked a team is is relative to their competition. Would kobe win a title in the early 00's or the 90's with Gasol as his 2nd option? No: Gasol would probably not even be a top 10 pf/c in the 90's and would certainly be behind shaq, duncan, kg in terms of paint players early 00's. But Between 08-10, gasol had a legit case as the best pf/c in the league (outplayed Dwight straight up in the finals).

Same thing now. With how embarassing Haren is in the playoffs no way he's better than Wade. You pretty much have the best current player in the league, the best sg and a top 5 pf. Would Current Wade have been the best sg in the early 00's in a league with prime tmac, kobe, vince, ai... I think whether Wade would even be top 5 is a better discussion, but he doesn't play in that league; he plays in one with Injured kobe and manufactored haren as his main competition. It's all relative to your competition, and the Heat definitely has a case as one of the most stacked teams of all time.

Also, why does it matter that people think your team is stacked? It's basically saying your team is very damn good and you take it like an insult lol. Isn't that a compliment? Unless you have an agenda to prop up one individual player i guess.


Is the 'D' broken on your keyboard? :lol

[j3lademaster]

Is the 'D' broken on your keyboard? :lol
The 'D' is broken on James Haren.

[poido123]

The 'D' is broken on James Haren.


Very smooth :lol

[Indian guy]

Would kobe win a title in the early 00's or the 90's with Gasol as his 2nd option?

Why not? In Gasol, he would still have one of the league's best 2nd players on his team. How many teams' 2nd best player in the 90's and early 00's was as good as 08-10 Gasol? Bulls(Pippen), early to mid 90's Utah(Stockton), 95-96 Magic(Penny), 01-04 Lakers(Kobe) and....that's about it. The 08-10 Lakers would be a top 3 team in the 90's and 00's in pretty much any season.


Gasol would probably not even be a top 10 pf/c in the 90's

C/PFs better than prime Gasol in the 90's - Hakeem, Shaq, D-Rob, Ewing, Barkley, Malone and Mourning. 7 players. That's it. And that list would be even shorter in the early 00's.


You pretty much have the best current player in the league, the best sg and a top 5 pf.

There's just no way Wade can be the best player at his position with his complete inability to play anything resembling a full season. In a full year, Harden's comfortably a more valuable player than him.

Bosh a top 5 PF? Let's see - Griffin, Love, Aldridge, Duncan and Nowitzki. I'd say he's 6th.


Would Current Wade have been the best sg in the early 00's in a league with prime tmac, kobe, vince, ai

Does it matter? 3 of those 4 players played on mediocre teams in their primes. They were never relevant from a team-perspective outside of 2001. Miami would humiliate all of them in a playoff series.


It's all relative to your competition, and the Heat definitely has a case as one of the most stacked teams of all time.

The "relative to competition" argument is just a butt hurt cop-out to not give this Heat team credit for anything they accomplish. For one, there's nothing "watered down" about the current league. The 80's Lakers and Celtics boasted rosters that were notably superior to the champions we have seen since the 90's onwards, but what exactly is different about a champion or even a perennial contender in the 90's and 00's compared to the 10's? Nothing. They all boast similarly talented teams. People, as in butt-hurt Heat/LeBron haters, just like to pretend that's the case so they can undermine Miami's chances in all historical matchups. The hate is that strong. It's a strange dilemma for them - on one hand, they refuse to give Miami any credit by playing the "stacked" card, but they're also just as quick to predict "lulz [insert 90's/00's team] in 4" when pitted against Miami in a 7 game series. As if the league has magically changed in 2 decades, when NOTHING has changed. The talent-level at the top is the same. Miami, when Wade's healthy, would be an uber talented team for ANY era. You know, just like every other multiple champion in NBA history. They would be a nightmare match-up for anyone. With the exception of the Bulls, I wouldn't pick any other 90's team over them in a 7 game series. Their core star-talent, their combined level of play on both ends of the court, to go along with having a superstar in LeBron who's better than everyone not named MJ, would simply prove to be too much.

[diamenz]

this is only one example, but i think mj's ball handling rivals lebrons:

http://youtu.be/T1C8tZN53eM?t=9m33s

and who can forget this:

http://youtu.be/0mwSpGOH8X4?t=55s

let's put it this way - both pipp and mj were better at protecting the ball.

[Carbine]

Nah. Lebron's the best in the league down low.
He is the best in the league at sealing his man, and he has more weight on Pippen than Magic ever did.
Lebron is a better post player than Magic was too.

I don't care about hooks and pretty plays, Bron puts the ball in the hoop from the post at an insanely efficient clip. His drop step with single coverage is unstoppable.

LeBron can and does do that against significantly smaller players when they have to guard him. He's efficient because he does it against a very very huge mismatch (which is smart) but when matched up against players almost as big, he almost always plays out on the perimeter.

:roll: at saying LeBron is a better post player than '91 Magic.

[LeBird]

I think this is where you lack understanding.

Have you or do you play ball yourself?

Jordan's first step allowed him to blow by opponents, WITHOUT having to do a killer cross over Tim Hardaway/Allen Iverson Style. His body control and speed got him past his opponents more often than not, without having to do some crazy And-1 Dribble move.

You must sniff glue, one dumb post after another. Yeh, he has a great first step but we're talking about all-round ball handling skills. They're not just used to beat a man and drive to the basket.

[trabash]

That's bullshit. MJ's Bulls wouldn't even make the Playoffs if you teleported them in today's league. The game has just evolved so much in any possbile way.

[plowking]

LeBron can and does do that against significantly smaller players when they have to guard him. He's efficient because he does it against a very very huge mismatch (which is smart) but when matched up against players almost as big, he almost always plays out on the perimeter.

:roll: at saying LeBron is a better post player than '91 Magic.

Cool, lets ignore everything Shaq did since everyone was smaller than him too. Doesn't count.
Same with Bron. He's bigger than everyone at his position, so it shouldn't count.

Idiots like you care about the million dollar move, instead of the actual finish. Bron is one of the most efficient scorers from the post of all time. Add in his passing ability down there and he is absolutely deadly.

[Real14]

JORDAN IS MUCH BETTER THAN LEBRON ON BOTH ENDS :bowdown:
:applause:

[Real14]

You just said they're low IQ and lack aggressiveness, meaning they're not that talented and don't have much potential :facepalm
No that's not what that means:no: It means that they are better on paper, they suppose to do great just like when underachievers don't excel on chances because they hard headed or just do have that fight and will. There's many people out here in this world that has amazing talent and potential but dont have great IQ and lack aggressiveness and you know dis. REAL talk.

[Real14]

thats like any team with lebron on it with decent talent :oldlol:
:biggums:

[Carbine]

Cool, lets ignore everything Shaq did since everyone was smaller than him too. Doesn't count.
Same with Bron. He's bigger than everyone at his position, so it shouldn't count.

Idiots like you care about the million dollar move, instead of the actual finish. Bron is one of the most efficient scorers from the post of all time. Add in his passing ability down there and he is absolutely deadly.

The point I'm making is directed to Pippen vs. LeBron in the post. It would not be an advantageous situation for LeBron.

How many times did LeBron take Leonard down low, let alone score on him in the finals last year? I'll tell you. Very, very few.

And he's going to overpower Pippen?

[TheMan]

He was 35- going to 36 dummy:facepalm Who would want a rebuilding process at that age:rolleyes:
This :oldlol:

That's the age ringless stars go around looking to hook up with other stars to chase rings, LeBron just did it in his 20's:roll:

[TheMan]

MJ was clear in why he retired: he refused to keep playing unless the Bulls brought Pippen and Jackson back--because he knew what would happen without them...when the Bulls finally let them go, MJ made good on his threat.

Can you imagine LeBron retiring because Wade and Spo were not retained? Exactly. LeBron knows he can compete with any shmoes he has, like he did in Cleveland. MJ knew without Pippen, Jackson, Rodman the Bulls would be lucky to be .500, even with MJ and Kukoc.
Absolute bullshit. One, LeBron wouldn't retire but he would either recruit other top players to Miami or leave to a team with stars in place. He ain't staying to rebuild.

Two, and this one is so laughable, if Bran knows he can compete with 'schmoes', why did he leave his hometown (breaking a promise of a chip) and hook up with a top 3 player (at that time) and a All Star PF? He stacked the deck, he didn't hook up with 'schmoes':facepalm

He even said on videotape that it was going to be easy (keyword being easy because he knew he stacked the odds in his favor), and he promised multiple titles with his now stacked ass team.

Get the fvck outta here, Roundrock, you're just making up shit as you go :facepalm

[PJR]

The point I'm making is directed to Pippen vs. LeBron in the post. It would not be an advantageous situation for LeBron.

How many times did LeBron take Leonard down low, let alone score on him in the finals last year? I'll tell you. Very, very few.

And he's going to overpower Pippen?

http://youtu.be/TQ5GZhEYLnk

When there weren't two, three defenders collapsing on him on the paint, he didn't have much of a problem.

[Indian guy]

The point I'm making is directed to Pippen vs. LeBron in the post. It would not be an advantageous situation for LeBron.

Ummm, Pippen, great as he was defensively, had a well known shortcoming on that end - post defense. Guys like Penny, Mashburn and Dominique often torched him down low. It was something he struggled with, for whatever reason.


How many times did LeBron take Leonard down low, let alone score on him in the finals last year? I'll tell you. Very, very few.

LeBron couldn't do anything near the paint without SA collapsing on him all series. Leonard was never really guarding him 1-on-1.


And he's going to overpower Pippen?

Why not? LeBron has a good 30-40 pounds on Pippen. He would easily overpower him down low.

[Dragonyeuw]

Jordan has some showman handles. Just didn't really need to use them with a lethal first step :confusedshrug:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5kMT6naqb4

You're right. On the most part, you never really saw any of them with the And-1 dribbling skills, however if we are talking about handles, we have to talk about what they can do when they leave the floor to score right? Finishing around the basket, hand fakes, up and under shots, hanging in the air delayed shots etc etc

I always saw Jordan as more of a quick-strike player. Alot of the modern era guards use the dribble to measure and try to get their defender off-balance. MJ would get the ball and immediately make his move, making the defense react to him as opposed to vice versa. Plus, he used a lot more fake one way and go the other,head and shoulder shakes and shimmies to keep the defender guessing, and of course the famous 'show the ball' palm. Basically, what he did with his body( the fakes and shakes) more modern players like kobe, wade, A.I etc did with the dribble.

And if you notice, jordan's dribbling style changed as he got older, just like his jumpshot mechanics. MJ in the 80s and MJ in the 90s had completely distinct shooting strokes. His dribbling became a more 'basic' style as well using those body fakes I mentioned. Less wasted movement as opposed to crossing your defender 100 times over.....

[Carbine]

Ummm, Pippen, great as he was defensively, had a well known shortcoming on that end - post defense. Guys like Penny, Mashburn and Dominique often torched him down low. It was something he struggled with, for whatever reason.



LeBron couldn't do anything near the paint without SA collapsing on him all series. Leonard was never really guarding him 1-on-1.



Why not? LeBron has a good 30-40 pounds on Pippen. He would easily overpower him down low.

Here's Pippen vs. one of the best post players of all-time, Barkley.

Barkley was ripping up the Bulls front court until Pippen was put on him. He made it extremely tough for Barkley down low. Barkley also outweighed him by a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SGe-vp_l8U

Educate yourself.

[Dragonyeuw]

Here's Pippen vs. one of the best post players of all-time, Barkley.

Barkley was ripping up the Bulls front court until Pippen was put on him. He made it extremely tough for Barkley down low. Barkley also outweighed him by a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SGe-vp_l8U

Educate yourself.

I'm waiting for someone to say that Lebron is a better post player than Barkley. I mean with everything else I read here, why not?

[J Shuttlesworth]

No that's not what that means:no: It means that they are better on paper, they suppose to do great just like when underachievers don't excel on chances because they hard headed or just do have that fight and will. There's many people out here in this world that has amazing talent and potential but dont have great IQ and lack aggressiveness and you know dis. REAL talk.
Terrible logic here. With this logic, you could say the Knicks are stacked because they have one of the best scorers in Melo, a former MVP candidate in Amare, sixth man of the year, and last year they even have kidd. If you think the Heat are more stacked than the Bulls, you're saying

Lebron > MJ
Wade > Pippen
Bosh > Rodman
Old Allen > Kerr

:biggums:

[97 bulls]

Ummm, Pippen, great as he was defensively, had a well known shortcoming on that end - post defense. Guys like Penny, Mashburn and Dominique often torched him down low. It was something he struggled with, for whatever reason.



LeBron couldn't do anything near the paint without SA collapsing on him all series. Leonard was never really guarding him 1-on-1.



Why not? LeBron has a good 30-40 pounds on Pippen. He would easily overpower him down low.
Pippen hardly struggled in the Post. Theres video if him Battling Ewing, Mourning, Webber, Larry Johnson, etc.

And how do you figure that Mashburn, Wilkins, and Hardaway gave Pippen trouble? Do you remember the Job Pippen did on these guys in the playoffs? Sure theyd have a great game here and there, but for most part, Pippen did an.excellent job on these guys.

If Jimmy Butler and Boris Diaw can give James a hard time, im sure Pippen could.

[Mr Feeny]

Pippen hardly struggled in the Post. Theres video if him Battling Ewing, Mourning, Webber, Larry Johnson, etc.

And how do you figure that Mashburn, Wilkins, and Hardaway gave Pippen trouble? Do you remember the Job Pippen did on these guys in the playoffs? Sure theyd have a great game here and there, but for most part, Pippen did an.excellent job on these guys.

If Jimmy Butler and Boris Diaw can give James a hard time, im sure Pippen could.

:wtf:
What the hell are you talking about? I have game 1 and 6 of the 1995 ECSF and all 4 games of the 1996 ECF on dvd and Penny ABUSED Pippen in the post and off the dribble. Did you even watch those series? Or just spouting nonsense and pretending you have any semblance of a clue as to what you you're on about?

[Paul George 24]

:wtf:
What the hell are you talking about? I have game 1 and 6 of the 1995 ECSF and all 4 games of the 1996 ECF on dvd and Penny ABUSED Pippen in the post and off the dribble. Did you even watch those series? Or just spouting nonsense and pretending you have any semblance of a clue as to what you you're on about?

:O: 2 BAD GAMES MEANS EVERTHING:roll:

[NumberSix]

It's amazing that Jordan went his entire career being guarded 1-on-1 by players like John Starks and Joe Dumars. Can you imagine if even Carmelo was guarded 1-on-1 by guys like that and zone defense was illegal? Lol. Fcuking James Harden would average 35PPG with that shit.:roll:

[The_Pharcyde]

It's amazing that Jordan went his entire career being guarded 1-on-1 by players like John Starks and Joe Dumars. Can you imagine if even Carmelo was guarded 1-on-1 by guys like that and zone defense was illegal? Fcuking James Harden would average 35PPG with that shit.:roll:
yeah dude, Forsure

[PHILA]

Barkley was ripping up the Bulls front court until Pippen was put on him. He made it extremely tough for Barkley down low. Barkley also outweighed him by a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SGe-vp_l8U

That is just one game though, with a misleading video title. That was Barkley's 3rd game of the season, coming off injury. Pippen played him great (1995 is his peak IMO), but I have seen way too many instances where a prime Barkley would seal him off and have his way. Same with Horace Grant. But then again he did that to everyone else in the league too. In the video example you have shown, I see excellent defense and quick reflexes, but also a couple poor entry passes. What is clear is the Pippen absolutely didn't want to be caught behind him, and gave him different looks, much like how Bill Russell used to play Wilt.

This is a bad comparison though since Barkley was perhaps as good a post player as anyone to ever play. I would select him to beat anyone 6'7 and under in a 1 on 1 game just due to the strength and agility combination. In the first link below Barkley muscles him off the floor, as he did with Grant and numerous others in the NBA many times.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkAoHTHzaOk&t=3m57s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbbD8zd-bh0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmjUpA3UVlA&t=3m3s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRvVYJ3eJUQ&t=8m57s

[97 bulls]

:wtf:
What the hell are you talking about? I have game 1 and 6 of the 1995 ECSF and all 4 games of the 1996 ECF on dvd and Penny ABUSED Pippen in the post and off the dribble. Did you even watch those series? Or just spouting nonsense and pretending you have any semblance of a clue as to what you you're on about?
Really? Who was guarding him when he was shooting sub 40%? Let me guess. When he missed Jordan was guarding him. When he made it, Pippen was.


You no more have copies of those games than you have ever experienced a migraine.

[Mr Feeny]

Really? Who was guarding him when he was shooting sub 40%? Let me guess. When he missed Jordan was guarding him. When he made it, Pippen was.


You no more have copies of those games than you have ever experienced a migraine.

Except I do. And the thought of a kid who never watched the actual games pretending he has a clue what hes talking about is hillarious.

And that would be Harper who picked him up when he torched Pippen. Of course, had you watched the games, you would have known this already.

[Carbine]

That is just one game though, with a misleading video title. That was Barkley's 3rd game of the season, coming off injury. Pippen played him great (1995 is his peak IMO), but I have seen way too many instances where a prime Barkley would seal him off and have his way. Same with Horace Grant. But then again he did that to everyone else in the league too. In the video example you have shown, I see excellent defense and quick reflexes, but also a couple poor entry passes. What is clear is the Pippen absolutely didn't want to be caught behind him, and gave him different looks, much like how Bill Russell used to play Wilt.

This is a bad comparison though since Barkley was perhaps as good a post player as anyone to ever play. I would select him to beat anyone 6'7 and under in a 1 on 1 game just due to the strength and agility combination. In the first link below Barkley muscles him off the floor, as he did with Grant and numerous others in the NBA many times.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkAoHTHzaOk&t=3m57s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbbD8zd-bh0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmjUpA3UVlA&t=3m3s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRvVYJ3eJUQ&t=8m57s


No doubt. Everyone gets scored on no matter who you are.

Barkley was a monster in the post. I think he was the best post player that wasn't a true big man the league has ever seen.

But this notion that Pippen struggled in the post is straight up wrong.

[97 bulls]

That is just one game though, with a misleading video title. That was Barkley's 3rd game of the season, coming off injury. Pippen played him great (1995 is his peak IMO), but I have seen way too many instances where a prime Barkley would seal him off and have his way. Same with Horace Grant. But then again he did that to everyone else in the league too. In the video example you have shown, I see excellent defense and quick reflexes, but also a couple poor entry passes. What is clear is the Pippen absolutely didn't want to be caught behind him, and gave him different looks, much like how Bill Russell used to play Wilt.

This is a bad comparison though since Barkley was perhaps as good a post player as anyone to ever play. I would select him to beat anyone 6'7 and under in a 1 on 1 game just due to the strength and agility combination. In the first link below Barkley muscles him off the floor, as he did with Grant and numerous others in the NBA many times.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkAoHTHzaOk&t=3m57s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbbD8zd-bh0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmjUpA3UVlA&t=3m3s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRvVYJ3eJUQ&t=8m57s
I watched the first vid. Barkley surely didn't abuse Pip. In fact, out of four possesions, Barkley only scored on Pip once, Pippen stole the ball another time, fouled him on another, and forced a bad pass.

Granted I having watched the other vids though.

I will say this, in that vid of Pippen/Barkley when Barkley was in Phoenix, Barkely looked just fine before Pip was switched on to him.

[97 bulls]

Except I do. And the thought of a kid who never watched the actual games pretending he has a clue what hes talking about is hillarious.

And that would be Harper who picked him up when he torched Pippen. Of course, had you watched the games, you would have known this already.
Lol never happened.

[NumberSix]

Jordan tards LOVE to tell us how epically competitive the 90s were and that Jordan had to carry a weak supporting cast, yet don't have an explanation for the Bulls winning 55 games without Jordan.

[Real14]

Jordan tards LOVE to tell us how epically competitive the 90s were and that Jordan had to carry a weak supporting cast, yet don't have an explanation for the Bulls winning 55 games without Jordan.
lost to knicks 2nd round semis. Invalid point.

[NumberSix]

lost to knicks 2nd round semis. Invalid point.
You wouldn't have made this point for obvious reasons if you had been watching basketball for more than the last 2-3 years.

[Carbine]

Jordan tards LOVE to tell us how epically competitive the 90s were and that Jordan had to carry a weak supporting cast, yet don't have an explanation for the Bulls winning 55 games without Jordan.

They went from a championship to 2nd round exit. Seems about right.

The Bulls were talented, Jordan didn't win those 3 titles prior with a bunch of bums.

[PHILA]

I will say this, in that vid of Pippen/Barkley when Barkley was in Phoenix, Barkely looked just fine before Pip was switched on to him.

My point is that Pippen nor anyone else could 'shut down' a prime Barkley 1 on 1. We can see here how concerned (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZtD0lej4Zc&t=1m4s) Pippen and Grant are with preventing him from splitting the trap, and that was after he used his dribble. He used to make habit of busting through BIG double teams like nothing.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG0awYBZsv4&t=10m40s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsTKc_AKSlU&t=8m5s



I think he was the best post player that wasn't a true big man the league has ever seen.
Yes, he may not have the volume of post attempts as the great centers, but his efficiency is amazing.

[navy]

It's amazing that Jordan went his entire career being guarded 1-on-1 by players like John Starks and Joe Dumars. Can you imagine if even Carmelo was guarded 1-on-1 by guys like that and zone defense was illegal? Lol. Fcuking James Harden would average 35PPG with that shit.:roll:
But, but but, handcheck. :oldlol:

[Mr Feeny]

Lol never happened.
"lol" you never watched the games.

[97 bulls]

My point is that Pippen nor anyone else could 'shut down' a prime Barkley 1 on 1. We can see here how concerned (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZtD0lej4Zc&t=1m4s) Pippen and Grant are with preventing him from splitting the trap, and that was after he used his dribble. He used to make habit of busting through BIG double teams like nothing.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG0awYBZsv4&t=10m40s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsTKc_AKSlU&t=8m5s



Yes, he may not have the volume of post attempts as the great centers, but his efficiency is amazing.
I agree that no one can shut down Barkley. But the claim was made that Pippen was a bad post player on defense. He did a great job on Barkley in that particular game. I dont see why he has to play Barkley a certain way to to get credit. Theres many ways to defend a post player. Fronting Barkley is smart.

[Calabis]

It's amazing that Jordan went his entire career being guarded 1-on-1 by players like John Starks and Joe Dumars. Can you imagine if even Carmelo was guarded 1-on-1 by guys like that and zone defense was illegal? Lol. Fcuking James Harden would average 35PPG with that shit.:roll:

Who knows I saw a guy by the name of Jason Terry, who is a shit defender compared to those guys you named, lock up a 6'8 240lb stud in Lebron:roll:

Durant struggling against the almighty Danny Green/Chris Paul

[NumberSix]

Who knows I saw a guy by the name of Jason Terry, who is a shit defender compared to those guys you named, lock up a 6'8 240lb stud in Lebron:roll:

Durant struggling against the almighty Danny Green/Chris Paul
Wrong end of the court. Terry went off on offense. He didn't do anything to anybody on the defensive end.

[navy]

Who knows I saw a guy by the name of Jason Terry, who is a shit defender compared to those guys you named, lock up a 6'8 240lb stud in Lebron:roll:

Durant struggling against the almighty Danny Green/Chris Paul
Revisionist history. Terry never guarded James and if he did, read NumberSix post, it's because he was allowed to play zone with his teammates helping.

Durant is the same. :no:

[j3lademaster]

Why not? In Gasol, he would still have one of the league's best 2nd players on his team. How many teams' 2nd best player in the 90's and early 00's was as good as 08-10 Gasol? Bulls(Pippen), early to mid 90's Utah(Stockton), 95-96 Magic(Penny), 01-04 Lakers(Kobe) and....that's about it. The 08-10 Lakers would be a top 3 team in the 90's and 00's in pretty much any season.Why not? Because a frontcourt featuring Gasol wouldn't be nearly as dominant in the 90's as it was in 08-10. Playoffs is all about matchups, and Gasol outplayed everyone he went up against in Kobe's title runs, something he can't do in the 90's.


C/PFs better than prime Gasol in the 90's - Hakeem, Shaq, D-Rob, Ewing, Barkley, Malone and Mourning. 7 players. That's it. And that list would be even shorter in the early 00's.That's "it"? That's a lot of players. Mostly like enough to push Gasol out of being a perenial all-star.



There's just no way Wade can be the best player at his position with his complete inability to play anything resembling a full season. In a full year, Harden's comfortably a more valuable player than him.I see. "More valuable"- that was sneaky. Yes 24 year old Haren is more valuable than an injury ridden 32 year old, but in terms of "winning now" you would rather have Haren? Give me a break. You're not winning with either guy as your go-to scorer/playmaker, but Wade is a very good 2nd option while Haren is hopeless as a top 2 guy on a contender. Yes, you can argue he's young and he can change/ get better, but that's not the issue: the issue at hand is who you trust as a 2nd option if you want to win now. I don't even know why I even replied to this troll response. Haren over Wade? Maybe in reg season box scores... try watching the playoffs.


Bosh a top 5 PF? Let's see - Griffin, Love, Aldridge, Duncan and Nowitzki. I'd say he's 6th.Okay, we'll give you the benefit of the doubt, he's 6th. Which of Griffin, Love, LMA, Duncan, Dirk did he have to match up with on his way to the finals again? Mmm.

The Heat are the best team in the league, and when you're the "best" you're usually "stacked". Would you prefer I call them garbage? Mediocre? They obviously aren't: back-to-back ships, 4 straight finals appearances and the favorites to 3peat.

[ArbitraryWater]

most stacked meaning talent and potential.

so most stacked doesn't actually take everything into consideration under your dumb definition?

Good to know... shows how little meaning that "stacked" bullshit has then.

[navy]

the favorites to 3peat.
Underdogs. :no:

[mark henson 123]

I think the Bulls would beat them but more because of match ups. Remember that the Heat are built to dominate this email of weak big men. A guy like Rodman would give the Heat a ton of trouble


the birdman would dunk all over rodman!:coleman:

[TheMan]

It's amazing that Jordan went his entire career being guarded 1-on-1 by players like John Starks and Joe Dumars. Can you imagine if even Carmelo was guarded 1-on-1 by guys like that and zone defense was illegal? Lol. Fcuking James Harden would average 35PPG with that shit.:roll:
John Starks and Joe Dumars were the only defenders back then :confusedshrug:

Meanwhile, Tony Allen is a premier defender today, all 6'4" of him. Basically the same height as those two.

Fail, stick to bitching about referees.

[TheMan]

I'm waiting for someone to say that Lebron is a better post player than Barkley. I mean with everything else I read here, why not?
Just wait til plowking logs on:rolleyes:

[Calabis]

Revisionist history. Terry never guarded James and if he did, read NumberSix post, it's because he was allowed to play zone with his teammates helping.

Durant is the same. :no:

Yes and of course Jordan faced nothing but one on ones and no one ever helped out on defense :facepalm

Lebron and Durant face double and triple teams every possession and have to go against this monster zone that people keep referring to :facepalm

If you guys insist on saying bullshit, I may as well come back with the same kind of rhetoric and nonsense:confusedshrug:

[PickernRoller]

Every generation thinks the ones that follow are always inferior, nothing new just ego inflated feeling superiority and nostalgia.



False. Tennis for example. The 60's and 70s vs. the 80's and 90's in basketball...

There are high and lows. This current era, 2010-2020(2014 currently) is weak as hell.

[Calabis]

False. Tennis for example. The 60's and 70s vs. the 80's and 90's in basketball...

There are high and lows. This current era, 2010-2020(2014 currently) is weak as hell.

:applause:

Just looking at the state of college basketball proves just this.

[played0ut]

It's amazing that Jordan went his entire career being guarded 1-on-1 by players like John Starks and Joe Dumars. Can you imagine if even Carmelo was guarded 1-on-1 by guys like that and zone defense was illegal? Lol. Fcuking James Harden would average 35PPG with that shit.:roll:

Story about Melo. Paraphrased from his own words,



I was hanging out at Jordan's place. After hanging out he invited me to his gym. There, he broke down exactly what I needed to do to score. That year, I averaged like 29 PPG...


Jordan tards LOVE to tell us how epically competitive the 90s were and that Jordan had to carry a weak supporting cast, yet don't have an explanation for the Bulls winning 55 games without Jordan.

What is there to explain? They're ****ing good. BUT he helped made them that way. Steve Kerr and scottie said it many times in interviews (Steve kerr on Open Court and Scottie in another interview) that he brought his competitiveness to practice, and forced the culture of winning to the entire team. On how to improve and maintain focus necessary to becoming winners, and stay winners.

During '96 when they won 72 games, every time they lost even a regular season game, they would be absolutely devastated and sombre the bus ride home.

MJ brought that mindset. And THAT's what helped elevate the play of his entire team, and made them so damned good.

[bizil]

In my book, the Heat have a very good chance of beating the Bulls first three peat squad. That might not be a popular opinion on this site. Bron and Wade are all time great players. Bron is arguably the GOAT SF and Wade is the 3rd or 4th GOAT SG. As great a defender as Horace Grant was, he wasn't a Rodman. Back in the 90's there weren't many 6'10 or 6'11 PF's with Bosh's scoring skillset. They have a better bench than the Bulls in my book. Give me Ray, Rashard, Cole, Birdman, and Battier over the Bulls bench at that point.

It's the second three peat team from the Bulls that would FOR SURE beat the Heat. Mainly due to toughness, defense, rebounding, and versatility on both sides of the rock. Rodman, Kukoc, and Harper added so much to those squads and it's NO SECRET why they went 72-10.

[Roundball_Rock]

Story about Melo. Paraphrased from his own words,





What is there to explain? They're ****ing good. BUT he helped made them that way. Steve Kerr and scottie said it many times in interviews (Steve kerr on Open Court and Scottie in another interview) that he brought his competitiveness to practice, and forced the culture of winning to the entire team. On how to improve and maintain focus necessary to becoming winners, and stay winners.

During '96 when they won 72 games, every time they lost even a regular season game, they would be absolutely devastated and sombre the bus ride home.

MJ brought that mindset. And THAT's what helped elevate the play of his entire team, and made them so damned good.

Yet he could never do the same with the Wizards or Bobcats in a "weak era"? This is another example of why MJ is actually overrated (despite being top 3 all-time): people act as if he also was the GM and coach. :roll:

[juju151111]

Yet he could never do the same with the Wizards or Bobcats in a "weak era"? This is another example of why MJ is actually overrated (despite being top 3 all-time): people act as if he also was the GM and coach. :roll:
Mj was 40. Retard and injured . Stay off the pipe

[Roundball_Rock]

And? He is not dead. He can still lead, set the tone, help players improve their games, etc. Why have the Wizards and Bobcats been trash his entire tenure? So was his baseball team.

[juju151111]

And? He is not dead. He can still lead, set the tone, help players improve their games, etc. Why have the Wizards and Bobcats been trash his entire tenure? So was his baseball team.
Who said they the players didn't improve? Mj has the man 6/6 and 6/6 finals MVp

[played0ut]

Yet he could never do the same with the Wizards or Bobcats in a "weak era"? This is another example of why MJ is actually overrated (despite being top 3 all-time): people act as if he also was the GM and coach. :roll:

No, he couldn't. Those teams really just sucked lol.

He openly complained about his wizards teammates, talking about how they lacked focus and intensity.


Jordan criticized his teammates for their lack of urgency and lackluster play on defense, and said he wouldn't accept it much longer.

"I don't see anyone covering my back as everyone probably expected me to cover theirs," Jordan said.

Those bull guys were good, I admitted it. I'm not saying he completely molded them from wet clay, I'm just saying he pushed them all harder to better live up to their potential. Scottie's admitted more than once that MJ bringing his A game in every practice made practice grueling, but eventually made him (scottie) a better player in the end.



As for the bobcats, lol he wasn't in their locker room. It's different. Steve Kerr said that MJ was the most talented and also worked harder than everyone else, and that was what made the culture. He wasn't down there with the bobcat players except for the occasional times he would train with them.

[LeBird]

During '96 when they won 72 games, every time they lost even a regular season game, they would be absolutely devastated and sombre the bus ride home.

MJ brought that mindset. And THAT's what helped elevate the play of his entire team, and made them so damned good.

So why didn't they win 72 games earlier in Jordan's career? :rolleyes:

The reason they won 72 games was because they played in a weaker era; even Rodman admitted this.

[played0ut]

So why didn't they win 72 games earlier in Jordan's career? :rolleyes:

The reason they won 72 games was because they played in a weaker era; even Rodman admitted this.

What?

This is about their mindset/focus/drive to maintaining a champion's standard, and has nothing to do with eras.

[icewill36]

i think miami wouldve guarded the bulls pretty well with todays rules. in todays game you need more floor spacing and shooting. i dont think the bulls had quite enough of that.

i respect Ho grant but I disagree. not saying the heat would win, but they would certainly have a chance.

[LeBird]

What?

This is about their mindset/focus/drive to maintaining a champion's standard, and has nothing to do with eras.

Genius; you're saying his mindset and his focus pushed his team to win 72 games. Nah, it didn't; it was the era. You think Bird, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, etc didn't have that drive to make their team better?

[Angel Face]

Agree with Grant.

:applause:

[Kargo]

Lol it's like comparing Hitchcock with Michael Bay.

MJ's Bulls went to 6 finals,won them all,never needing a game 7.

Bran's Heat went to 4 finals,were outplayed in three of them,won two,got absolutely besmirched losing by an average of 18 points a game in the last.