Article about Jordan and LeBron and what happens if they switch places

[tragicbronson]

http://www.sbnation.com/2014/3/25/5542838/nba-rules-changes-lebron-james-michael-jordan

Comprehensive article that explains and analyze 2 great players and shows us that it's not that as simple as many think it is. Many claim that Jordan would average 50 in today's era while LeBron wouldn't be so effective if he had played 30 years ago but what is really the truth?
:applause:

[JohnFreeman]

Nothing worse then hypotheticals

[tmacattack33]

A 6'8 260 lb player with amazing speed like Lebron playing in an era in which more contact was allowed?

Good bye league.

[guy]

Many claim that Jordan would average 50 in today's era while LeBron wouldn't be so effective if he had played 30 years ago but what is really the truth?
:applause:

I'll read the article later, but no one who isn't trolling seriously thinks either of these.

[ralph_i_el]

Nothing worse then hypotheticals

without hypothetical situations you cannot visualize and plan around the consequences of your actions.

Hypothetically, what would happen if you didn't post all your dumb posts?


pretty good article btw thanks OP

[Trollsmasher]

I really laughed at those screens of David Robinson beign forced to stay at the 3 point line. Had no idea that the defenses were this lame:lol

[TheMan]

A 6'8 260 lb player with amazing speed like Lebron playing in an era in which more contact was allowed?

Good bye league.
If you mean that Bran would be allowed to bulldoze over people even more than he does now, then yes, Bron in the late 80s and early 90s would dominate.

OTOH, today with no quality bigmen camping out in the paint, rules favoring perimeter players and defenders that can't put a hand on offensive players without it being called a foul, Jordan would destroy the current NBA even more than he did back then.

[ralph_i_el]

If you mean that Bran would be allowed to bulldoze over people even more than they do now, then yes, Bron in the late 80s and early 90s would dominate.

OTOH, today with no quality bigmen camping out in the paint, rules favoring perimeter players and defenders that can't put a hand on offensive players without it being called a foul, Jordan would destroy the current NBA even more than he did back then.

How about you read the damn article? More men in the paint now than ever. Jordan wouldn't be able to go one-on-one on the perimeter or post as much as he did in his day. He probably wouldn't get to the rim and finish as much either, probably drawing more fouls from guys packing the paint.

[navy]

How about you read the damn article? More men in the paint now than ever. Jordan wouldn't be able to go one-on-one on the perimeter or post as much as he did in his day. He probably wouldn't get to the rim and finish as much either, probably drawing more fouls from guys packing the paint.
You know he didnt read the article. People these days already have set notions in their heads and even if you bring up factual proof otherwise they will ignore it.

[tmacattack33]

If you mean that Bran would be allowed to bulldoze over people even more than he does now, then yes, Bron in the late 80s and early 90s would dominate.

OTOH, today with no quality bigmen camping out in the paint, rules favoring perimeter players and defenders that can't put a hand on offensive players without it being called a foul, Jordan would destroy the current NBA even more than he did back then.

Yes. And that comparitively, he would be affected by hand checks less than his peers. Which would make his relative value go up.

And on defense, he would be able to use his strength as well more than he can today.

[Trollsmasher]

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/assets/4183253/Screen_Shot_2014-03-24_at_8.36.39_PM.png

Packed paint tho

This article goes straight after the balls of Jordan mythologists and cuts them off with no remorse. Too bad the author fears the backlash too much to straight up say that Lebron would completly own that era.

[ralph_i_el]

Yes. And that comparitively, he would be affected by hand checks less than his peers. Which would make his relative value go up.

And on defense, he would be able to use his strength as well more than he can today.

plus the flip side of handchecking-offensive players got to throw forearms and hook guys with their off-hand on spins out of the post. You could do stuff that would get you an offensive foul these days.

Todays league is more speed-skill oriented. Maybe Bron would do better in the 80's-90's and MJ would do better today? MJ would be D-Rose on roids today, and Lebron would be a mutant Magic/Barkley hybrid back then.

[TheMan]

How about you read the damn article? More men in the paint now than ever.
Quality bigmen being the keyword.

Who gives a fack that there's more men in the paint when a) there's a restricted area (didn't exsist back then) and b) most of those players aren't affecting great slashers like Wade, Rose, LeBron etc from getting to the rim because they ain't shot blocking threats.

Roy Hibbert is hot garbage in the 80s/90s but he's Wilt Chamberlain today:oldlol:

[aj1987]

Quality bigmen being the keyword.

Who gives a fack that there's more men in the paint when a) there's a restricted area (didn't exsist back then) and b) most of those players aren't affecting great slashers like Wade, Rose, LeBron etc from getting to the rim because they ain't shot blocking threats.

Roy Hibbert is hot garbage in the 80s/90s but he's Wilt Chamberlain today:oldlol:
Wilt averaged 11/7 on 45%? :facepalm

[ralph_i_el]

Quality bigmen being the keyword.

Who gives a fack that there's more men in the paint when a) there's a restricted area (didn't exsist back then) and b) most of those players aren't affecting great slashers like Wade, Rose, LeBron etc from getting to the rim because they ain't shot blocking threats.

Roy Hibbert is hot garbage in the 80s/90s but he's Wilt Chamberlain today:oldlol:

You think there are less quality bigs because the rules/priorities have changed to make it harder for them to score out of the post. Because you only look at statlines, you wouldn't understand that. The players aren't worse, they're just playing under a different set of circumstances with a different set of rules. In MJ's day the guy Hibbert would guard would probably stand at half court so Hibbert couldn't D the rim. However, Hibbert is having a hell of a lot easier time scoring back then.

NBA teams aren't really looking for post players that focus on scoring. It's just not a role that has a lot of value in todays NBA. The best Bigman scorers today have shooting range and are great at facing up out of the post (BG, Anthony Davis ect...) The best back to basket guys often are serving as passers who draw double teams to break down the D (Marc Gasol, Nene, Bogut).

If you think there is a lack of quality bigs in the NBA I don't know how I can help you. There are tons of great offensive 4's. Teams want a Center who can defend the rim, rebound, and move the ball on offense so the perimeter players don't get bogged down with a packed paint. There are also plenty of great players that fit the modern center position. Guys like Dwight and Pekovic who bully their way to the rim and can't shoot jumpers are a dying breed.




Long story short, the greatest back to the basket players of all time aren't scoring 30 ppg in todays league. Shaq/Wilt/Hakeem none of em. The future of great offensive bigs is shooting, faceups, and exploiting mismatches in the post to break down the defense.

[TheMan]

Wilt averaged 11/7 on 45%? :facepalm
Besides the fact that Wilt destroys RH as an offensive player, I was talking about rim protection.

Try to keep up.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

If Hibbert was given the benefit of the 'verticality' rule, he'd be a great rim protector in any era.

[Nash]

are people really surprised that tactics have developed 20 years later? Of course the game is tactically more advanced and more difficult now. It's the same with every sport.

We learn from experience and things develop.

[ralph_i_el]

are people really surprised that tactics have developed 20 years later? Of course the game is tactically more advanced and more difficult now. It's the same with every sport.

We learn from experience and things develop.

This is true also. Just look at baseball. they do defensive shifts against almost every player now because we can easily make a statistical profile of where they are likely going to hit the ball. Back in the day they'd only shift for 1 or 2 guys in the whole league unless they were playing bunt or sac fly.


Nowadays coaches stress "2.9ing" where you sag off your man whenever possible and stay with a foot in the paint for as long as possible (2.9 seconds) without getting a foul.

Watch the Wizards and focus on the paint when Wall has the rock. Unfortunately we don't have a good stretch 4 so there are constantly big men lurking in the paint to contest Wall's rim attacks. I think it's pretty easy to see that a player like Wall would get to the rim more often in MJ's era than today.

[TheMan]

You think there are less quality bigs because the rules/priorities have changed to make it harder for them to score out of the post. Because you only look at statlines, you wouldn't understand that. The players aren't worse, they're just playing under a different set of circumstances with a different set of rules. In MJ's day the guy Hibbert would guard would probably stand at half court so Hibbert couldn't D the rim. However, Hibbert is having a hell of a lot easier time scoring back then.

NBA teams aren't really looking for post players that focus on scoring. It's just not a role that has a lot of value in todays NBA. The best Bigman scorers today have shooting range and are great at facing up out of the post (BG, Anthony Davis ect...) The best back to basket guys often are serving as passers who draw double teams to break down the D (Marc Gasol, Nene).

If you think there is a lack of quality bigs in the NBA I don't know how I can help you. There are tons of great offensive 4's. Teams want a Center who can defend the rim, rebound, and move the ball on offense so the perimeter players don't get bogged down with a packed paint. There are also plenty of great players that fit the modern center position.




Long story short, the greatest back to the basket players of all time aren't scoring 30 ppg in todays league. Shaq/Wilt/Hakeem none of em. The future of great offensive bigs is shooting, faceups, and exploiting mismatches in the post to break down the defense.
Al Jefferson says hi. And he's a throwback to that era and doing just fine today. There is a drought of quality bigs with great post moves. LeBron is effective as hell when he goes in the post. A great post up player would still be a great assest today. There were great versatile bigs back then like Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson who could do damage from the low post as well as hit 15 footers.

Say what you will, yes the rules have changed to make it a more perimeter friendly game but prime KAJ today would still beast, there isn't anything you can say to make me think otherwise. A great big is still the most effecient scorer in an NBA team, problem is, there aren't any.

[AlphaWolf24]

If you mean that Bran would be allowed to bulldoze over people even more than he does now, then yes, Bron in the late 80s and early 90s would dominate.

OTOH, today with no quality bigmen camping out in the paint, rules favoring perimeter players and defenders that can't put a hand on offensive players without it being called a foul, Jordan would destroy the current NBA even more than he did back then.


More Myth's from basketball illiterate MJ stans ......



[QUOTE]

1966-67

[ralph_i_el]

Al Jefferson says hi. And he's a throwback to that era and doing just fine today. There is a drought of quality bigs with great post moves. LeBron is effective as hell when he goes in the post. A great post up player would still be a great assest today. There were great versatile bigs back then like Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson who could do damage from the low post as well as hit 15 footers.

Say what you will, yes the rules have changed to make it a more perimeter friendly game but prime KAJ today would still beast, there isn't anything you can say to make me think otherwise. A great big is still the most effecient scorer in an NBA team, problem is, there aren't any.

Al Jefferson is posting a below average TS% and the highest AST% of his career. You don't want 22 points on 19 FGA from your top option on offense. He would be getting a lot more buckets if the Cats could space the floor for him. Lebron is effective as hell out of the post because his passing makes it really difficult to double him.

Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson. All great players. All players who wouldn't put up nearly as gaudy statlines in todays league. If Al Jefferson played back then you might have included him among those names. You really don't think guys like Brook Lopez/Dwight/Pekovic would have benefited from playing back then? Players today didn't magically lose all knowledge of post play, it's just less efficient and therefore less desirable.

It's a fact that it's easier to defend the paint and the post. That can't be argued. I don't understand how you can't make the connection between making it easier to defend and making it harder on offense.


There's a flip side to that. Steve Nash would have been a nice player back then, but there is no way in HELL he'd be an MVP caliber player, and he probably wouldn't even be an allstar.



There really isn't a point to having this discussion with people who don't understand the context of a players statistics and impact. If you want to bury your head in the sand and believe that everyone with post moves died out, be my guest.

[guy]

Articles like this are stupid. Now someone can just post a youtube link to one of those videos showing a bunch of defensive plays back then that look like today's defensive plays. Its a constant pissing match back and forth.

I'm pretty sure both Jordan and Lebron would dominate each other's era. Whether its more or less, it probably wouldn't be that big of a difference. Do people realize that league averages in 2014 aren't really much different then what they were 20 years ago? Look it up. Jordan's 33 ppg on 50 FG% and 56 TS% in 1993 probably varies between 30-35 ppg, 48-52 FG%, and 54-58 TS% depending on if he would be a "little bit" better or worse in this era. But either way, who gives a shit with differences like that? Do people really think he's averaging 25 ppg? Do people really think he's averaging 40 ppg?

[jstern]

Alls I know is that I remember centers camping down by the basket, not standing near the the 3 point line. Because the article showed Robinson near the 3 point line, now that becomes a new fact.

And all I know is that the league changed the rules with a stated purpose to make it easier for perimeter players. And then all of sudden perimeter players started averaging bigger numbers league wide.

I appreciate that the article is trying to appease both sides, but something is not cool about that. It like prevents confusion and less accurate conclusions. Can't explain it.

[Demitri98]

MJ's era: Harder on-ball defense but less effective help defense.

LBJ's era: Softer on-ball defense but more effective help defense.

It cancels out IMO. They would both dominate in either era.

[russwest0]

What happens?

Bulls don't win shit early on with LeBron like they didn't with Jordan.

Difference is LeBron "takes his talents" elsewhere trying to take the easy way out.

[Solefade]

What happens?

Bulls don't win shit early on with LeBron like they didn't with Jordan.

Difference is LeBron "takes his talents" elsewhere trying to take the easy way out.


damn bro how many times have you brought up this point during your career here on ISH? this feels like i've read this line from you like 50x already

[Solefade]

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/assets/4183253/Screen_Shot_2014-03-24_at_8.36.39_PM.png

Packed paint tho

This article goes straight after the balls of Jordan mythologists and cuts them off with no remorse. Too bad the author fears the backlash too much to straight up say that Lebron would completly own that era.


this shit is hilarious :lol

[inclinerator]

so does this make tim duncan even more amazing?

[Sarcastic]

So someone takes some random snapshots, from some random games, in random situations, and tries to make sweeping generalizations of an entire era on those few pictures?


Seems legit

[Calabis]

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1877185/Screen_Shot_2012-12-14_at_9.26.03_AM.png

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1877193/Screen_Shot_2012-12-14_at_9.26.32_AM.png

Can I write a article about today's soft defense ....it is literally a walk in the park to get into the lane.....why? Because i can find screenshots all day and write an article as if this happened every play.

Article is stupid sorry.

[Calabis]

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1877201/Screen_Shot_2012-12-14_at_9.29.12_AM.png

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1877209/Screen_Shot_2012-12-14_at_9.29.22_AM.png

Look at those defenders crashing down. ..:roll: easy layup

[Rose'sACL]

Playing in the post and scoring 30+PPG is almost impossible now.there are good defensive big men in the league so stop acting like there are no good big men to defend the rim.
Most big men are challenged offensively but defensively we have some very good defenders. I also understand why most big men would prefer taking mid range jumpers over playing nearly whole game in the post given how less rewarding it is now unless you are a really good passer.

[Blue&Orange]

A 6'8 260 lb player with amazing speed like Lebron playing in an era in which more contact was allowed?

Good bye league.
Lebron is such a great BASKETBALL player that every time he is compared to the great ones, all stans have is size, speed, strength.

Are u talking basketball or field track?

[guy]

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1877185/Screen_Shot_2012-12-14_at_9.26.03_AM.png

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1877193/Screen_Shot_2012-12-14_at_9.26.32_AM.png

Can I write a article about today's soft defense ....it is literally a walk in the park to get into the lane.....why? Because i can find screenshots all day and write an article as if this happened every play.

Article is stupid sorry.

Agreed. Its really hilarious how people think this way of presenting an argument is good. :oldlol: How is it any different then me posting a youtube video full of Jordan's best highlights and saying he's better then Lebron and never had a bad play/game?

[Rose'sACL]

Lebron is such a great BASKETBALL player that every time he is compared to the great ones, all stans have is size, speed, strength.

Are u talking basketball or field track?
i guess shaq was a scrub. How about the fact that wade with Jordan's body would most probably post better stats and play longer as he would not have to sacrifice his body so much to score and be able to hit jumpers more easily with added height.
It is almost like people forget that lebron is one of best non-PG passer of all time.

[pauk]

Both would be fine, however i think Lebron would be better in the 90s era than this era, mainly due to the zone....

Handchecking was actually not that bad as you were allowed to counter it as an offensive player aswell (shrug the guys arms of, hook, use your guard hand and so on) and for a big/explosive perimeter guy like Lebron that wont be a problem especially when he knows he wont be facing a zone defense/5 man defense of today.... which wasnt allowed in the 90s... The zone/5 man D you are allowed to play today allows you to completely shut down a single player if you wish, to the extent of having everybody else open, but the point is you were not allowed to do that in the 90s.... that was called illegal defense and therefore for an individual despite the handchecking it might actually have been EASIER for Lebron to score in the 90s than today....

[Marlo_Stanfield]

LEBron>>Jordan
everyone knows that already, move on

[Calabis]

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/3017921/Screen_Shot_2013-08-06_at_7.30.34_PM.png

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/3017969/Screen_Shot_2013-08-06_at_7.37.59_PM.png

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/3018003/Screen_Shot_2013-08-06_at_7.44.27_PM.png

Since Jordan didnt have the ability to get to the hole like Bynum.....no way could he do this. Lucky Bynum has Spiderman like powers that's the only way to make this play.

[hitmanyr2k]

:oldlol: at these dullards being fooled by screenshots. It's no different than these plays...

http://i.imgur.com/nK1QIOX.jpg

Harper's man already digging down swinging at the ball with Harper above the 3 point line. Rodman's man in the paint not even guarding him waiting for Pippen to make his move. Corliss Williamson has foot in the paint not guarding Kukoc. If I were to freeze frame that and draw big arrows with captions it would be the exact same shit above :oldlol:

http://i.imgur.com/zBXzKp3.gif

Pippen surrounded by 4 defenders. Webber in the paint not bothering to guard his man. Muresan in the paint not bothering to guard his man. Strickland near the paint not bothering to guard his man. Once again I could easily freeze frame this shit and draw little arrows pointing to each guy.

http://i.imgur.com/WLFRcsT.gif


All Sonic defenders in or near the paint, rinse, repeat.

http://i.imgur.com/bZlmMQy.gif

[Calabis]

:oldlol: at these dullards being fooled by screenshots. It's no different than these plays...

http://i.imgur.com/nK1QIOX.jpg

Harper's man already digging down swinging at the ball with Harper above the 3 point line. Rodman's man in the paint not even guarding him waiting for Pippen to make his move. Corliss Williamson has foot in the paint not guarding Kukoc. If I were to freeze frame that and draw big arrows with captions it would be the exact same shit above :oldlol:

http://i.imgur.com/zBXzKp3.gif

Pippen surrounded by 4 defenders. Webber in the paint not bothering to guard his man. Muresan in the paint not bothering to guard his man. Strickland near the paint not bothering to guard his man. Once again I could easily freeze frame this shit and draw little arrows pointing to each guy.

http://i.imgur.com/WLFRcsT.gif


All Sonic defenders in or near the paint, rinse, repeat.

http://i.imgur.com/bZlmMQy.gif

/end thread

[Calabis]

It

[DonDadda59]

:oldlol: at these dullards being fooled by screenshots. It's no different than these plays...

http://i.imgur.com/nK1QIOX.jpg

Harper's man already digging down swinging at the ball with Harper above the 3 point line. Rodman's man in the paint not even guarding him waiting for Pippen to make his move. Corliss Williamson has foot in the paint not guarding Kukoc. If I were to freeze frame that and draw big arrows with captions it would be the exact same shit above :oldlol:

http://i.imgur.com/zBXzKp3.gif

Pippen surrounded by 4 defenders. Webber in the paint not bothering to guard his man. Muresan in the paint not bothering to guard his man. Strickland near the paint not bothering to guard his man. Once again I could easily freeze frame this shit and draw little arrows pointing to each guy.

http://i.imgur.com/WLFRcsT.gif


All Sonic defenders in or near the paint, rinse, repeat.

http://i.imgur.com/bZlmMQy.gif

I honestly have no idea what people are arguing about in here, didn't bother to read. But these gifs caught my attention. Man, Pip had such a smooth and effective post game. Definitely the most underrated aspect of his skill set :applause:

[TheMan]

LEBron>>Jordan
everyone knows that already, move on
Dis fakkit:oldlol:

[atljonesbro]

Funny how people take such pride in pushing around the offensive player rather than playing actual defense. Would be hilarious seeing these "elite" 90s defenders try to defend today.

[oarabbus]

A 6'8 260 lb player with amazing speed like Lebron playing in an era in which more contact was allowed?

Good bye league.

Truth doe. Jordan stans like to prop up the 90s but it wasn't as good as they lead you to believe.

[DonDadda59]

Funny how people take such pride in pushing around the offensive player rather than playing actual defense. Would be hilarious seeing these "elite" 90s defenders try to defend today.

You don't think Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Zo, Dikembe, etc can do what Marc Gasol does? :lol

Or how about Duncan doing what... Old Man Duncan does :lol

But yes, Jordan and Pippen would struggle to do what Shane Battier does.

I swear some people sniff glue before signing on to this site.

[sc19]

Best defender of all time.
http://blog.fastmodelsports.com/Portals/245032/images/kobe.jpg
You can't score if you can't see. :applause:

[Budadiiii]

Best defender of all time.
http://blog.fastmodelsports.com/Portals/245032/images/kobe.jpg
You can't score if you can't see. :applause:
http://darwinjames17.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/20130216-172013.jpg

[Calabis]

Funny how people take such pride in pushing around the offensive player rather than playing actual defense. Would be hilarious seeing these "elite" 90s defenders try to defend today.

They would be like they are today. ..non existent

[russwest0]

http://darwinjames17.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/20130216-172013.jpg

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[OldSchoolBBall]

How about you read the damn article? More men in the paint now than ever.

This is a nonsensical falsehood, and I don't care what any article says. All one has to do is watch any game from '85-'93 and see that the paint was WAY more crowded than it is today, and there were certainly more big men shotblockers inside, along with no sissy calls at the rim. Get real.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Great! A few pics to "define" a whole era :rolleyes:



http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1877185/Screen_Shot_2012-12-14_at_9.26.03_AM.png

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1877193/Screen_Shot_2012-12-14_at_9.26.32_AM.png

Can I write a article about today's soft defense ....it is literally a walk in the park to get into the lane.....why? Because i can find screenshots all day and write an article as if this happened every play.

Article is stupid sorry.

:oldlol: at these dullards being fooled by screenshots. It's no different than these plays...

http://i.imgur.com/nK1QIOX.jpg

Harper's man already digging down swinging at the ball with Harper above the 3 point line. Rodman's man in the paint not even guarding him waiting for Pippen to make his move. Corliss Williamson has foot in the paint not guarding Kukoc. If I were to freeze frame that and draw big arrows with captions it would be the exact same shit above :oldlol:

http://i.imgur.com/zBXzKp3.gif

Pippen surrounded by 4 defenders. Webber in the paint not bothering to guard his man. Muresan in the paint not bothering to guard his man. Strickland near the paint not bothering to guard his man. Once again I could easily freeze frame this shit and draw little arrows pointing to each guy.

http://i.imgur.com/WLFRcsT.gif


All of the above says it all.



You don't think Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Zo, Dikembe, etc can do what Marc Gasol does?

Or how about Duncan doing what... Old Man Duncan does

But yes, Jordan and Pippen would struggle to do what Shane Battier does.

I swear some people sniff glue before signing on to this site.

This is a nonsensical falsehood, and I don't care what any article says. All one has to do is watch any game from '85-'93 and see that the paint was WAY more crowded than it is today, and there were certainly more big men shotblockers inside, along with no sissy calls at the rim. Get real.

^^True




Long story short, the greatest back to the basket players of all time aren't scoring 30 ppg in todays league. Shaq/Wilt/Hakeem none of em. The future of great offensive bigs is shooting, faceups, and exploiting mismatches in the post to break down the defense.

:facepalm :roll:

[Angel Face]

Look at how the author cherry picks those screen shots. Picking the best he could find in this era and the worst during the past era. Why didn't he use some James Harden as an example. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J7XX0TGfsQ

Let's be real here. In this era you can't be breathed on, Michael Jordan would absolutely dominate in this era much more than during his era. Today's game lacks physicality and is too soft. Imagine Lebron going up against the bad boy Pistons and the Knicks defense, flopping his body around. If Boris Diaw can contain Lebron, he could get shut down by much more Physical defense of the 90s.

[Collie]

MJ would have murdered Plumlee