Worst franchise between Minnesota, Cleveland, or Detroit

[sammichoffate]

All three teams were heading into the season as potential playoff teams. With the exception of Minnesota, all are below .500. Which team did the worst job this season?

[kamil]

All three suck relative to their conference.

I'd say Minnesota has the best team relative to the three in comparison.

[Eric Cartman]

Some analysts in the preseason picked Detroit to finish 6th even as high as 5th in the East. It was a total flop from a shitty franchise/crackcity.

[JUDGE WITNESS]

detroit. did decent (relative to the competition in the east) for a good half/quarter of the season then just went to sh1t

[navy]

Minnesota isnt that bad, injuries and conference considered.

Detroit and Cleveland just fell for the trap of thinking they had good players when they didnt. I dont think it makes them bad franchises. Cleveland is historically not good so there's that.....

[RagaZ]

Pistons = 3 Championships :confusedshrug:

[mr.big35]

Some analysts in the preseason picked Detroit to finish 6th even as high as 5th in the East. It was a total flop from a shitty franchise/crackcity.

how many shitty franchise do you know that has 3 rings

[Crafty]

Cleveland, two number 1 picks in the past 3 years and still in the lottery.

[coin24]

Dumars:lol :facepalm horrible signings..
They actually started the season ok, then it all went to shit..

Cavs swung and miss with Bynum unfortunately, mike brown is a retard, but they have some decent talent still..

Minny was supposed to be good when healthy, Rubio is overrated and they're just not that good..



I'm going with Detroit as the worst and least chance of turning it around..
All time going with wolves.

[Dro]

Gotta go with Cleveland....Minnesota isn't a bad franchise, they just have a ton of injuries...

[mr.big35]

Cleveland, two number 1 picks in the past 3 years and still in the lottery.

they still cant figure at drafting players. detroit problems is at free agent.

[ralph_i_el]

minny might be the best team to ever miss the playoffs. look at their point differential

[Boarder Patrol]

How the hell do you have 2 #1 overall picks and 2 #4 overall picks and STILL end up in the lottery? :lol

Couldn't even win with a peak LeBron. Answer is obvious.

[KyrieTheFuture]

I'd rather **** up drafts than throw money at proven losers like Jennings and Smith and think they'll work together. Cleveland's poor drafting is so overblown though, especially this past draft, who the **** was worth taking at all? I'll be shocked if anyone from this draft becomes an all star.

[DukeDelonte13]

I'd rather **** up drafts than throw money at proven losers like Jennings and Smith and think they'll work together. Cleveland's poor drafting is so overblown though, especially this past draft, who the **** was worth taking at all? I'll be shocked if anyone from this draft becomes an all star.


Only bad draft pick thus far has been Bennett. Kyrie, TT, Dion, and Zeller were all good picks.

[ALBballer]

Minnesota has lost a bunch of close games and plays in the West. Minny would easily be a 5th seed in the East.

[Boarder Patrol]

Only bad draft pick thus far has been Bennett. Kyrie, TT, Dion, and Zeller were all good picks.

If they were all good picks then the Cavs wouldn't still be a lottery team.

[Fork]

Cleveland

[secund2nun]

I'd rather **** up drafts than throw money at proven losers like Jennings and Smith and think they'll work together. Cleveland's poor drafting is so overblown though, especially this past draft, who the **** was worth taking at all? I'll be shocked if anyone from this draft becomes an all star.

The Smith and Jennings signings were complete failures, but Cleveland is full of failures as well. Detriot at least has 3 titles and a history of good core building like 03-07 Detriot and the Bad Boy Pistons.

Cleveland mistakes since Lebron left:

1. Rehiring Mike Brown
2. Not understanding that they are not good enough and have to tank this year. Instead Cleveland tried to win with a mediocre core hurting the draft position. Then when it became apparent that Cleveland can't make the playoffs aside from a very small chance as being an 8th seed swept in the first round they still tried to make the playoffs with moves to get veterans.
3. Trading for Deng
4. Drafting Anthony Bennett number 1
5. Drafting Waiters over Drummond
6. Drafting Thompson over Jonas Valanciunas
7. Signing Jarrett Jack

[DaSeba5]

I don't think you include Minnesota with Cleveland and Detroit here because the Cavs and Pistons had a lot of hype of making the playoffs, especially with the East so weak. I mean you really have to be bad and not live up to expectations to not make the playoffs in the East this year.

[DMAVS41]

Tough call, but when you luck into a top 8 player of all time...and then don't surround him with anything legit in 7 years...and he's from the state...and then lose him...

Probably the tie breaker should go to the Cavs.

Also, if they lose Kyrie...they really should just move the franchise or just contract the team. What's the point of having the franchise if you draft Lebron and Kyrie...and you don't keep either of them?

Hope that doesn't happen...really like some of the Cavs fans that post here.

[Bibby4Three]

Cleveland.

Seems like they can never make the right choice when it comes to keeping or letting players go.

IMO Gilbert is an absolute clown.

[DMAVS41]

Minnesota has lost a bunch of close games and plays in the West. Minny would easily be a 5th seed in the East.

Yea. I was way too hard on Love earlier. I didn't realize just how awful they get every time he goes to the bench.

I'm not giving him a complete pass because they have been terrible in close games, but the truth is that if he had decent help they'd be a 55 win team based on the differentials.

[JellyBean]

Detroit without a doubt. Minnesota (my home team but I bleed Green and Yellow.....Seattle Supersonics) is playing hard and putting forth an effort to be a model franchise. Cleveland...well they are Cleveland. Their history speaks for itself. Now the Pistons there is no excuse. They kicked the coach to the curb after only 50 games. They honor the Bad Boys one night and then lose the worst team in the NBA. The Pistons have fallen off greatly. No effort. No desire. No pride. With three banners hanging from the rafters, you would think that somewhere in that locker room you could find 2-3 players with the fire and desire to compete. Give the fans something to look forward to on game night. The Pistons get my vote.

[RedBlackAttack]

The Smith and Jennings signings were complete failures, but Cleveland is full of failures as well. Detriot at least has 3 titles and a history of good core building like 03-07 Detriot and the Bad Boy Pistons.

Cleveland mistakes since Lebron left:

1. Rehiring Mike Brown
2. Not understanding that they are not good enough and have to tank this year. Instead Cleveland tried to win with a mediocre core hurting the draft position. Then when it became apparent that Cleveland can't make the playoffs aside from a very small chance as being an 8th seed swept in the first round they still tried to make the playoffs with moves to get veterans.
3. Trading for Deng
4. Drafting Anthony Bennett number 1
5. Drafting Waiters over Drummond
6. Drafting Thompson over Jonas Valanciunas
7. Signing Jarrett Jack
What a ridiculous post.

1. I know everyone hates Mike Brown, but the Cavs are +7 over their record last year and will likely finish with one of the most improved records in the entire league.

2. The Cavs were never going to be bad enough this year to get a really high pick with all of the other, far worse, teams tanking in front of them. And, the idea that the Cavs would be making the playoffs "because of veterans" is beyond dumb. They have the second youngest roster in the entire NBA.

3. How was trading Bynum for Deng a mistake? :oldlol: Unless you're thinking that Kings pick will eventually be a first-rounder, which it won't. They basically got a try-out of what would have been one of the top FAs this offseason and a likely target for them. Now, they know what he has left and what he would bring to the team. I seriously doubt they'll make a big play on him as a result.

4. Revisionist nonsense. It was a horrible draft.

5. Even worse revisionist nonsense. At the time, everyone was saying Thomas Robinson was the BPA at 4, not Drummond. Virtually no one was talking about Drummond at 4. The Cavs got killed for taking Waiters over TRob and Barnes... Waiters is better than both.

6. Valanciunas gets more hype for not producing than any player I can remember. Thompson has been the better player so far in their respective careers.

7. Jack has been a pretty bad fit. But, if this run at the playoffs continues, it will have been worth it, because no way do they win these four games without Kyrie if Jack isn't on the team.


All said, considering how weak the three drafts were that just happened to come along during the Cavs' rebuild, their picks have been fine. Waiters, in particular, was a hell of a pick in retrospect, considering what everyone was screaming for the Cavs to do (Robinson/Barnes).

[RedBlackAttack]

Also, if they lose Kyrie...they really should just move the franchise or just contract the team. What's the point of having the franchise if you draft Lebron and Kyrie...and you don't keep either of them?

Yes, let's contract one of the few markets that actually continues to turn out for the franchise even in the lean years. Smart.

[3LiftHeatCurse]

I choose Cleveland, because it adds another vote to them as the worst franchise, which also helps legitimize LeBron for choosing Miami.

[MMM]

minny might be the best team to ever miss the playoffs. look at their point differential

Dunno bout that
Seems like there are 48-50 win teams that miss the playoffs out west every season.

Cavs are the Oilers of the NBA
Nother team consistently picking in the top 3-5 and will be doing so again

[RedBlackAttack]

Dunno bout that
Seems like there are 48-50 win teams that miss the playoffs out west every season.

Cavs are the Oilers of the NBA
Nother team consistently picking in the top 3-5 and will be doing so again
Will be doing so again? Do tell. That would be a hell of a jump in the lottery.

[aboss4real24]

Cleve,mINN,DET

In that order



detroit been pretty bad the last 5 or 6 years but history wise there a gud franchise

[sixer6ad]

So frustrating to read these thoughts as a Cavs fan. People jump on CLE because even though hardly any of you have ever been here or at a Cavs game, we are the city to jump on when the word "worst" appears.

Trust RBA posts. He analyzes the drafts and knows. Thompson and waiters are not superstars, but have you looked at their performances vs their draft classes? There's no chance they were bad picks. They are simply not standout top 5 draft players; however, they are outplaying their peers in their draft classes.

We are totally underachieving as a team this year, but you are talking about a franchise with 17 playoff appearances. In the middle of a rough year, 17,000 show up yesterday afternoon to watch us play. When we were a bad franchise under Ted stepien, that number was 5,000. This is a bad team; this is not a bad franchise.

Come to a game. See the life in the area around the Q. Come to casino, go to dinner, and go to a game. This is hardly a bad franchise.

[DMAVS41]

Yes, let's contract one of the few markets that actually continues to turn out for the franchise even in the lean years. Smart.


Well, what's the point if you can't do anything with a guy like Lebron?

I mean...you get a top 8 player ever and he leaves.

I said I don't want them to move or be contracted, but at some point it goes beyond fans turning out.

[1manfastbreak]

So frustrating to read these thoughts as a Cavs fan. People jump on CLE because even though hardly any of you have ever been here or at a Cavs game, we are the city to jump on when the word "worst" appears.

Trust RBA posts. He analyzes the drafts and knows. Thompson and waiters are not superstars, but have you looked at their performances vs their draft classes? There's no chance they were bad picks. They are simply not standout top 5 draft players; however, they are outplaying their peers in their draft classes.

We are totally underachieving as a team this year, but you are talking about a franchise with 17 playoff appearances. In the middle of a rough year, 17,000 show up yesterday afternoon to watch us play. When we were a bad franchise under Ted stepien, that number was 5,000. This is a bad team; this is not a bad franchise.

Come to a game. See the life in the area around the Q. Come to casino, go to dinner, and go to a game. This is hardly a bad franchise.

just because there is fan support doesn't make it any less of a bad franchise. I mean if you can't win a championship with LeBron, then there really is no hope.

[RedBlackAttack]

Well, what's the point if you can't do anything with a guy like Lebron?

I mean...you get a top 8 player ever and he leaves.

I said I don't want them to move or be contracted, but at some point it goes beyond fans turning out.
"Can't do anything"... :oldlol:

Yes, the Cavs "did nothing" with James. Let's forget the fact that James was as much or more to blame for the Cavs bowing out against a very good Celtics team in 2010 than the front office or the other players. Let's also forget that he did basically the same thing the next year with a completely different franchise, playing with a beast version of Wade.

James was not a Top 8 player "ever" in Cleveland. Hell, I'm not sure he is right now. I'd have to compile my all-time list to be sure, but that seems high for a guy whose only been in the league for 10 years. But, after getting embarrassed by a Mavs team I would have favored the 2010 Cavs against, he was forced to go back to the drawing board. He changed his game and his approach and it showed. We didn't have this version of James in Cleveland.

In the vast majority of his years in Cleveland, James wasn't on the level where he was capable of leading a team to a championship. I'd say in 2009, he probably was. Maybe 2008, but then again he had a really rough series against the Celtics that year, too, up until Game 7. Definitely no year prior to that and not in 2010 when he essentially threw in the towel after the team went up 2-1, crushing the Celtics in Boston.


But, this discussion really shouldn't be just about James. That's the kind of slap in the face we constantly have to deal with in Cleveland. Everything always boils down to LeBron James... as if the Cavs didn't exist before he arrived.

In fact, I thought our teams in the late-80s and early-90s were better than those James teams. They just happened to be winning 50+ games in an absolutely stacked Eastern Conference, with the greatest player of all-time, the Bad Boys and Bird's Celtics roaming around.

This idea that the Cavs were only good in the James years and a joke otherwise... it's nonsense.

The Cavs have made the playoffs 14 times in the last 26 years. James was a part of just five of those teams.

So, since 1987, the Cavs have made the playoffs 54-percent of the time. I'm not sure where that puts them league-wide over the same span, but I'm going to assume it wouldn't be near the bottom tier.

We aren't just talking about teams barely sneaking in, either. They won 54, 57 and 57 games in seasons in the late-80s, early-90s.


As always, it's a "what have you done for me lately" crowd. Because the current second youngest roster in the NBA hasn't started competing for championships as soon as some people would like, the team should be contracted.

The Cavs also may be the only franchise in NBA history who get constantly berated for having the misfortune of drafting a great player. Most franchises would be able to celebrate 60+ win seasons and Finals/ECF appearances. Instead, people laugh at the Cavs for it.

[RedBlackAttack]

So frustrating to read these thoughts as a Cavs fan. People jump on CLE because even though hardly any of you have ever been here or at a Cavs game, we are the city to jump on when the word "worst" appears.

Trust RBA posts. He analyzes the drafts and knows. Thompson and waiters are not superstars, but have you looked at their performances vs their draft classes? There's no chance they were bad picks. They are simply not standout top 5 draft players; however, they are outplaying their peers in their draft classes.

We are totally underachieving as a team this year, but you are talking about a franchise with 17 playoff appearances. In the middle of a rough year, 17,000 show up yesterday afternoon to watch us play. When we were a bad franchise under Ted stepien, that number was 5,000. This is a bad team; this is not a bad franchise.

Come to a game. See the life in the area around the Q. Come to casino, go to dinner, and go to a game. This is hardly a bad franchise.
Pretty much agree with everything you have to say, but I'm not sure this team is underachieving anymore. There was a time when we were on pace for 25 wins where there's no doubt, I would have agreed with you.

But, we've got 30 wins now and it looks likely that number will reach at least 34 (probably higher). I think expectations were just a little too high for a team with a completely new system, coach and a roster chalk full of guys 22 years old or under.

That is generally not a recipe for 40+ win seasons. The 30-35 range seems more appropriate and that is where we're headed.

[DMAVS41]

"Can't do anything"... :oldlol:

Yes, the Cavs "did nothing" with James. Let's forget the fact that James was as much or more to blame for the Cavs bowing out against a very good Celtics team in 2010 than the front office or the other players. Let's also forget that he did basically the same thing the next year with a completely different franchise, playing with a beast version of Wade.

James was not a Top 8 player "ever" in Cleveland. Hell, I'm not sure he is right now. I'd have to compile my all-time list to be sure, but that seems high for a guy whose only been in the league for 10 years.

In the vast majority of his years in Cleveland, James wasn't on the level where he was capable of leading a team to a championship. I'd say in 2009, he probably was. Maybe 2008, but then again he had a really rough series against the Celtics that year, too, up until Game 7. Definitely no year prior to that and not in 2010 when he essentially threw in the towel after the team went up 2-1, crushing the Celtics in Boston.


But, this discussion really shouldn't be just about James. That's the kind of slap in the face we constantly have to deal with in Cleveland. Everything always boils down to LeBron James... as if the Cavs didn't exist before he arrived.

In fact, I thought our teams in the late-80s and early-90s were better than those James teams. They just happened to be winning 50+ games in an absolutely stacked Eastern Conference.

But, this idea that the Cavs were only good in the James years and a joke otherwise... it's nonsense.

The Cavs have made the playoffs 14 times in the last 26 years. James was a part of just five of those teams.

So, since 1987, the Cavs have made the playoffs 54-percent of the time. I'm not sure where that's puts them league-wide over the same span, but I'm going to assume it wouldn't be near the bottom tier.

We aren't just talking about teams barely sneaking in, either. They won 54, 57 and 57 games in seasons in the late-80s, early-90s.


As always, it's a "what have you done for me lately" crowd. Because the current second youngest roster in the NBA hasn't started competing for championships as soon as some people would like, the team should be contracted.

The Cavs also may be the only franchise in NBA history who get constantly berated for having the misfortune of drafting a great player. Most franchises would be able to celebrate 60+ win seasons and Finals/ECF appearances. Instead, people laugh at the Cavs for it.

We can make it top 10 or top 12...or whatever you like. That wasn't the point of my comment.

My point was not even the 7 years they had him. It's that they lost him...and that they didn't put shit around him during his time there.

It's just the truth dude. He gave you guys 7 years and you failed him. Lebron exceeded expectations dramatically...He was even better than advertised and was an elite player in the league as a 21 year old.

And now it's just more of the same. Either Kyrie is great and you aren't putting him in the right situation to succeed...or he isn't...and you guys have missed on more draft picks.

And I actually have been to Cleveland...so I say this with experience of going to a few games over the years unlike the other guy thinks...

And I like Cleveland a lot, but we all know that rich black basketball players are not going to go there over a lot of other teams. So you have to build through the draft...and that is just hard.

It's not like I'm saying the Cavs are the only bad franchise. The Wolves are horrendous. What's the point of them? They didn't give KG shit to work with...never made the finals with him. Now they've had Love for years and they can't even make the ****ing playoffs. What's the ****ing point? Even when teams like the Wolves and Cavs strike NBA gold by lucking into all time great players...they haven't done shit with it.

That is the point of fans. That is all.

I don't actually think Cleveland will be contracted, and I don't want great fans like yourself to have to deal with that, but the league would be a lot better off getting rid of like 4 or 5 teams...and putting a team in Vegas and or Seattle.

Is what it is...

[RedBlackAttack]

We can make it top 10 or top 12...or whatever you like. That wasn't the point of my comment.

My point was not even the 7 years they had him. It's that they lost him...and that they didn't put shit around him during his time there.

It's just the truth dude. He gave you guys 7 years and you failed him. Lebron exceeded expectations dramatically...He was even better than advertised and was an elite player in the league as a 21 year old.

And now it's just more of the same. Either Kyrie is great and you aren't putting him in the right situation to succeed...or he isn't...and you guys have missed on more draft picks.

And I actually have been to Cleveland...so I say this with experience of going to a few games over the years unlike the other guy thinks...

And I like Cleveland a lot, but we all know that rich black basketball players are not going to go there over a lot of other teams. So you have to build through the draft...and that is just hard.

It's not like I'm saying the Cavs are the only bad franchise. The Wolves are horrendous. What's the point of them? They didn't give KG shit to work with...never made the finals with him. Now they've had Love for years and they can't even make the ****ing playoffs. What's the ****ing point? Even when teams like the Wolves and Cavs strike NBA gold by lucking into all time great players...they haven't done shit with it.

That is the point of fans. That is all.

I don't actually think Cleveland will be contracted, and I don't want great fans like yourself to have to deal with that, but the league would be a lot better off getting rid of like 4 or 5 teams...and putting a team in Vegas and or Seattle.

Is what it is...

I just completely disagree with your whole characterization of the Cavs "failing LeBron." He chose to leave to play with another top 3 player at the time and an elite PF. We were never going to be able to offer James that, even if every move was the perfect one.

If that's what he wanted, which apparently was the case, he was always going to leave. I do believe that, btw. That was always his plan.


As for Kyrie... he was freaking 21 years old this year and the team is still fighting for a spot in the playoffs. What the hell were you guys expecting from a team this young? Is going from 23 wins to 35 wins really that huge of a letdown, especially considering all the injuries the team has endured?

More of the same? I just don't understand where you're coming from.


Lastly, here's the disconnect between your apparent look at who should be contracted and who I think should be the first teams contracted... you're basing it on franchise decisions, success, etc.

To me, that should never even enter into the conversation. The city where the team plays cannot control what the front office does. All they can do is support the team.

Cleveland is among the league's best in this area. Places like Atlanta who have playoff caliber teams and still play to empty arenas? Those are the first places that should be contracted.


I'm also going to say this again... for everyone calling the Cavs "historically bad franchise," there is no comparison between the really historically bad franchises and the Cavaliers.

Over the last 25 years, the Cavs have made the playoffs 54% of the time.

Over the same period, the Wizards, Warriors and Clippers are at 23%. The Kings are at 35%. The Nets 42%, Bucks 46%, Pelicans/Hornets 48%, Sixers 50%, etc...

Since coming into the league 25 years ago, the Timberwolves have made the playoffs just 33% of the time. Bobcats are at 10%. Raps are 26%, Grizz 32%, etc.

The numbers just don't support the argument. The Cavs actually have a pretty strong history of putting out consistently quality teams.

[BrownEye007]

If they were all good picks then the Cavs wouldn't still be a lottery team.
If the Cavs had picked Jonas Valanciunas, Harrison Barnes, and victor Oladipo like everybody seems to think they should have do you think they'd be a playoff team right now? I don't.

[BrownEye007]

We can make it top 10 or top 12...or whatever you like. That wasn't the point of my comment.

My point was not even the 7 years they had him. It's that they lost him...and that they didn't put shit around him during his time there.

It's just the truth dude. He gave you guys 7 years and you failed him. Lebron exceeded expectations dramatically...He was even better than advertised and was an elite player in the league as a 21 year old.

And now it's just more of the same. Either Kyrie is great and you aren't putting him in the right situation to succeed...or he isn't...and you guys have missed on more draft picks.

And I actually have been to Cleveland...so I say this with experience of going to a few games over the years unlike the other guy thinks...

And I like Cleveland a lot, but we all know that rich black basketball players are not going to go there over a lot of other teams. So you have to build through the draft...and that is just hard.

It's not like I'm saying the Cavs are the only bad franchise. The Wolves are horrendous. What's the point of them? They didn't give KG shit to work with...never made the finals with him. Now they've had Love for years and they can't even make the ****ing playoffs. What's the ****ing point? Even when teams like the Wolves and Cavs strike NBA gold by lucking into all time great players...they haven't done shit with it.

That is the point of fans. That is all.

I don't actually think Cleveland will be contracted, and I don't want great fans like yourself to have to deal with that, but the league would be a lot better off getting rid of like 4 or 5 teams...and putting a team in Vegas and or Seattle.

Is what it is...You do realize that if you were to get rid of the worst franchises currently somebody else would just become the worst right? It's not like bad franchises will stop existing and everybody wins every season. Even if you got rid of 5 teams there would still be AT LEAST 5 teams that don't win a championship over a 20 year period. Did you know that Michael Jordan didn't win his first championship till he was 28? Well Lebron left Cleveland at 25. I guess the Bulls are a terrible franchise too because they didn't win with mj For even more seasons than the Cavs didn't win with lebron.

[Draz]

Definitely not Detroit. Rings in the past. They have a brighter future. I'll say Minny

[LBJMVP]

they still cant figure at drafting players. detroit problems is at free agent.

why do people keep saying this

kyrie, thompson, and waiters were all really solid picks. the jury is still out on bennet.

we havent made a bad pick yet though and people keep posting this shit as if we have busted on every single pick we take.

[DMAVS41]

I just completely disagree with your whole characterization of the Cavs "failing LeBron." He chose to leave to play with another top 3 player at the time and an elite PF. We were never going to be able to offer James that, even if every move was the perfect one.

If that's what he wanted, which apparently was the case, he was always going to leave. I do believe that, btw. That was always his plan.


As for Kyrie... he was freaking 21 years old this year and the team is still fighting for a spot in the playoffs. What the hell were you guys expecting from a team this young? Is going from 23 wins to 35 wins really that huge of a letdown, especially considering all the injuries the team has endured?

More of the same? I just don't understand where you're coming from.


Lastly, here's the disconnect between your apparent look at who should be contracted and who I think should be the first teams contracted... you're basing it on franchise decisions, success, etc.

To me, that should never even enter into the conversation. The city where the team plays cannot control what the front office does. All they can do is support the team.

Cleveland is among the league's best in this area. Places like Atlanta who have playoff caliber teams and still play to empty arenas? Those are the first places that should be contracted.


I'm also going to say this again... for everyone calling the Cavs "historically bad franchise," there is no comparison between the really historically bad franchises and the Cavaliers.

Over the last 25 years, the Cavs have made the playoffs 54% of the time.

Over the same period, the Wizards, Warriors and Clippers are at 23%. The Kings are at 35%. The Nets 42%, Bucks 46%, Pelicans/Hornets 48%, Sixers 50%, etc...

Since coming into the league 25 years ago, the Timberwolves have made the playoffs just 33% of the time. Bobcats are at 10%. Raps are 26%, Grizz 32%, etc.

The numbers just don't support the argument. The Cavs actually have a pretty strong history of putting out consistently quality teams.


Well, we've been over this before...when Mo Williams is the best player you get your star in 7 years...that is failing. You clearly have much lower expectations...and that is fine, but again...that is why you guys lost Lebron. You can blame Lebron all you want...and say he needed to play with a top 3 player, but I don't buy that. I think Lebron was sick of playing for a franchise that hadn't given him shit historically in 7 years...and he wanted to go down as one of the best ever...and the Cavs aren't helping with that.

I have no problem with the Cavs this year. I'm saying that if Kyrie leaves. Again, IF Kyrie leaves...it's another problem for the Cavs.

That is the point I think you are ignoring. We are asking what scenario leads to the Cavs winning a title or at least remaining relevant for long stretches? It's clearly not lucking into a top "whatever number you pick" player of all time in Lebron.

All those other teams you bring up. Totally agree, but I took the OP more about which franchise has been the worst of this era. Also, a lot of those franchises didn't luck into Lebron and then lose him.

You obviously glossed over my criticism of the Timberwolves as well.

[no pun intended]

http://www.geekosystem.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/dan-gilbert-letter.gif

[DMAVS41]

You do realize that if you were to get rid of the worst franchises currently somebody else would just become the worst right? It's not like bad franchises will stop existing and everybody wins every season. Even if you got rid of 5 teams there would still be AT LEAST 5 teams that don't win a championship over a 20 year period. Did you know that Michael Jordan didn't win his first championship till he was 28? Well Lebron left Cleveland at 25. I guess the Bulls are a terrible franchise too because they didn't win with mj For even more seasons than the Cavs didn't win with lebron.

You are misunderstanding the argument. The Bulls did enough to keep Jordan around and ultimately built a strong team with a great future.

What the **** was the future of the Cavs post 2010? The future looked bleak because the Cavs mismanaged the entire situation from day 1.

And part of that is because they had shit decision makers...and the other harsh reality is that modern NBA players don't want to play in Cleveland if given choices. Just the truth...

[AnaheimLakers24]

magic.

[BrownEye007]

You are misunderstanding the argument. The Bulls did enough to keep Jordan around and ultimately built a strong team with a great future.

What the **** was the future of the Cavs post 2010? The future looked bleak because the Cavs mismanaged the entire situation from day 1.

And part of that is because they had shit decision makers...and the other harsh reality is that modern NBA players don't want to play in Cleveland if given choices. Just the truth...
He wasn't going to be playing with two other players of the caliber of Wade and Bosh but surely had he stayed he still could have won a championship. Maybe it would have taken a little longer, maybe he would have had to work even harder, but don't act like Lebron didn't have a chance at a championship if he stayed in Cleveland. What if he got one of those two to come play in Cleveland instead of leaving? If he made it to the finals with boobie ****ing gibson as the second best player I'm sure 5 extra years of experience and Dwayne Wade would have been enough to pull one out.

The Cavs are by no means a great franchise but your premise that they're a bottom 3 franchise because Lebron left is ridiculous. Clippers and Bobcats are easily the worst two franchises in the NBA in terms of history. If your looking at just the past three years sure the Cavs are one of the worst but they are better than a bunch of the teams historically.

The cavs just get so much unwarranted hate. It's mostly in the form of bashing Chris Grants draft picks which have all been really good so far (other than possibly Bennett) But then there's people like you who act like they haven't done anything good ever in their existence. What exactly have the Kings, Clippers, Bobcats, Hornets, suns, wizards, knicks, bucks, grizzlies, or jazz done better than the cavs over the past 20 plus years? Well nothing really except for not being located in Cleveland.

[sixer6ad]

You do realize that if you were to get rid of the worst franchises currently somebody else would just become the worst right? It's not like bad franchises will stop existing and everybody wins every season. Even if you got rid of 5 teams there would still be AT LEAST 5 teams that don't win a championship over a 20 year period. Did you know that Michael Jordan didn't win his first championship till he was 28? Well Lebron left Cleveland at 25. I guess the Bulls are a terrible franchise too because they didn't win with mj For even more seasons than the Cavs didn't win with lebron.

And it took how long for the bulls to recover post Jordan? And the celtics post bird? This is year 4, and while enduring "mismanagement" it's difficult to argue against people who hate us because it's cold, snowy, and cloudy in Cleveland.

Say we have zero titles and you are correct. Say that the best player we got for LBJ is Mo Williams and you are correct. Saying that our franchise sucks and that we haven't been good, etc. is nothing more that flowing with others' thoughts. We had the best player in the world and lost him. That's a mistake for any franchise but it doesn't mean you pack up and leave. We have acquired an amazing amount of draft picks and cap space, and we have improved this year. Not where we thought or wanted, but we're not Philly or Milwaukee. Maybe if we had Rocky or Laverne and Shirley we'd be off the hook.

[DMAVS41]

He wasn't going to be playing with two other players of the caliber of Wade and Bosh but surely had he stayed he still could have won a championship. Maybe it would have taken a little longer, maybe he would have had to work even harder, but don't act like Lebron didn't have a chance at a championship if he stayed in Cleveland. What if he got one of those two to come play in Cleveland instead of leaving? If he made it to the finals with boobie ****ing gibson as the second best player I'm sure 5 extra years of experience and Dwayne Wade would have been enough to pull one out.

The Cavs are by no means a great franchise but your premise that they're a bottom 3 franchise because Lebron left is ridiculous. Clippers and Bobcats are easily the worst two franchises in the NBA in terms of history. If your looking at just the past three years sure the Cavs are one of the worst but they are better than a bunch of the teams historically.

The cavs just get so much unwarranted hate. It's mostly in the form of bashing Chris Grants draft picks which have all been really good so far (other than possibly Bennett) But then there's people like you who act like they haven't done anything good ever in their existence. What exactly have the Kings, Clippers, Bobcats, Hornets, suns, wizards, knicks, bucks, grizzlies, or jazz done better than the cavs over the past 20 plus years? Well nothing really except for not being located in Cleveland.

Bottom 3? There were only 3 choices given.

****...if we are talking about overall...the ****ing Mavs are a worse franchise than the Cavs historically.

But you still seem to misunderstand the point. The point that I and others are trying to make is that the fundamental question about a team like the Cavs or Wolves...is that even when they hit the NBA lottery and get an all time great player...it wasn't enough. And that is a troublesome issue...you get Lebron or KG...and you still can't find a way to surround them with legit help.

It is what it is...

[tpols]

You are misunderstanding the argument. The Bulls did enough to keep Jordan around and ultimately built a strong team with a great future.

What the **** was the future of the Cavs post 2010? The future looked bleak because the Cavs mismanaged the entire situation from day 1.

And part of that is because they had shit decision makers...and the other harsh reality is that modern NBA players don't want to play in Cleveland if given choices. Just the truth...

Lebron mightve been out after bulls lost to detroit. Woulda been his version of facing the Celtics.. gets beat down by stacked team a few years in a row and poof hes gone.

And then the Bulls would need to get contracted..

[DMAVS41]

Lebron mightve been out after bulls lost to detroit. Woulda been his version of facing the Celtics.. gets beat down by stacked team a few years in a row and poof hes gone.

And then the Bulls would need to get contracted..

Doubt it...Bulls had a bright future with Pippen being a 17/7/5 defensive force in 90 when they lost to the Pistons again. Not a comparable situation at all.

Cavs had what?

[tpols]

Doubt it...Bulls had a bright future with Pippen being a 17/7/5 defensive force in 90 when they lost to the Pistons again. Not a comparable situation at all.

Cavs had what?

The cavs had the 3rd and 7th best defenses in 09 and 10.. Bulls had the 19th ranked defense in 90. Dont even bring up defensive help. Lebron had more of it. He quit on his team in 2010 in a way MJ never wouldve.

MJ created the bright future because he stuck through the hard times.. Bran bounced and theres no comparison between the resolve and determination to keep pushing between the two.

[coin24]

Doubt it...Bulls had a bright future with Pippen being a 17/7/5 defensive force in 90 when they lost to the Pistons again. Not a comparable situation at all.

Cavs had what?

Come on, the cavs had back to back 60 win teams. Teams built specifically around Lebrons "talents"..

People makin out they were complete scrubs now when at the time most people predicted the cavs making the finals both years.
No one saw Orlando dominating them in 09, nor bran quitting and playing like complete shit in 10..

Then he left cause it was all too hard. Bullshit he wouldn't have done the same in Jordan's position on the bulls. Once a beta quitter, always a bitch:oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

The cavs had the 3rd and 7th best defenses in 09 and 10.. Bulls had the 19th ranked defense in 90. Dont even bring up defensive help. Lebron had more of it. He quit on his team in 2010 in a way MJ never wouldve.

MJ created the bright future because he stuck through the hard times.. Bran bounced and theres no comparison between the resolve and determination to keep pushing between the two.

this isn't a comparison of MJ and Lebron

It's comparing the Bulls future to the Cavs future...and you can try to beat around the bush, but we all know that the Bulls had a much brighter future and Jordan knew he had a great 2nd guy for the future.

What did Lebron have going for the future? Mo Williams? Jamison? Shaq? Delonte? Parker?

Give me a ****ing break....

[DMAVS41]

Come on, the cavs had back to back 60 win teams. Teams built specifically around Lebrons "talents"..

People makin out they were complete scrubs now when at the time most people predicted the cavs making the finals both years.
No one saw Orlando dominating them in 09, nor bran quitting and playing like complete shit in 10..

Then he left cause it was all too hard. Bullshit he wouldn't have done the same in Jordan's position on the bulls. Once a beta quitter, always a bitch:oldlol:

Please take a look at the 10 Cavs roster...then think about what kind of future that team has.

The come back here and admit to being wrong.

[BrownEye007]

Bottom 3? There were only 3 choices given.

****...if we are talking about overall...the ****ing Mavs are a worse franchise than the Cavs historically.

But you still seem to misunderstand the point. The point that I and others are trying to make is that the fundamental question about a team like the Cavs or Wolves...is that even when they hit the NBA lottery and get an all time great player...it wasn't enough. And that is a troublesome issue...you get Lebron or KG...and you still can't find a way to surround them with legit help.

It is what it is...
I give up. You win. Your point is totally relevant to the op and lebron is the greatest ever and totally 100% justified in leaving and its all the Cavs fault. Yay! now lets all hold hands

[Black Mamba's B]

Cleveland. There's a reason why "The Goat" left

[jbryan1984]

Historically, Minny is the worst. They have never had a winning season without a man named Kevin Garnett. Yes, it was a gamble on Bynum but at least we turned it into Deng. I agree with signing Brown. I am glad we have Waiters, he just gets better. Also, nobody could possibly know that Jarrett Jack would drop off the map this year. Argueably, he was the best bench guard in the league last year. It was a smart signing at the time.

[DMAVS41]

I give up. You win. Your point is totally relevant to the op and lebron is the greatest ever and totally 100% justified in leaving and its all the Cavs fault. Yay! now lets all hold hands

I didn't say Lebron is without blame.

The OP asked about 3 teams...and just this year. And then it morphed into an overall discussion.

Like I just said above...the Mavericks are historically a worse franchise than the Cavs. The Mavs in the 90's were a disgrace. We've come a long long long way since Cuban/Dirk came to town.

My point is simple. And we can use the Wolves as an example so I don't offend Cavs fans.

When a team lucks into an all time great player like KG...then another great player like Love...or at least a great player for this era...and then is likely going to lose them both without ever really putting anything of substance around them. Then what is the point of having the team there? Players don't want to play there...and management/ownership can't surround these guys with anything when they luck into them to begin with...and they got these guys because they sucked as well.

It just makes an objective fan look at it and think the league would be better off with less teams...or a team in Vegas or something. That really is the point...

You really don't think that having a league of 26 teams wouldn't be better than what we currently have? The reason why the Cavs are brought up...despite them being popular and having great fans (have said this time and time again here) is that players just don't want to play there. It's just the truth...and that makes it so damn hard to build.

Hell, the Mavs have lost out on a lot of guys because players have turned us down despite money and a solid organization. Just the way it is.

[CelticBaller]

Detroit shouldn't be in the discussion

[Legends66NBA7]

Detroit shouldn't be in the discussion

True. They are actually seem like an underrated franchise these days. I have them Top 5 all-time and are Top 10 at worst.

Detroit > Cleveland > Minnesota should be the only answer. Minnesota might be on the verge of relocation one day. They currently have missed the playoffs for 10 straight years now and have been horrible at drafting players.

[oarabbus]

minny might be the best team to ever miss the playoffs. look at their point differential

Explain plz