Who honestly thinks Bill russell is a top 4 player [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

aj1987

03-05-2014, 12:55 AM

Jordan
Kareem
Magic
Bird

were all better.
How are they better than Russell? 11 championships. Would've won more than 7 FMVP's if it existed back then. 5x MVP and also would've won the DPOY 6-8 times, if it existed back then. Played like 600 fewer games than Russell and has 5000 more assists. Dude is right up there with MJ as the GOAT.

russwest0

03-05-2014, 12:57 AM

How are they better than Russell? 11 championships. Would've won more than 7 FMVP's if it existed back then. 5x MVP and also would've won the DPOY 6-8 times, if it existed back then. Played like 600 fewer games than Russell and has 5000 more assists. Dude is right up there with MJ as the GOAT.

Your whole argument works against MJ as well. No need to exclude him from being bolded.

cos88

03-05-2014, 01:00 AM

The-Legend-24

03-05-2014, 01:00 AM

Everybody that does is clearly joking, dude won all his rings in a 5 team league. :oldlol:

I.R.Beast

03-05-2014, 01:01 AM

how many people actually saw him play is a better question.

Eric Cartman

03-05-2014, 01:09 AM

MJ
Kareem
Shaq
Kobe
Lebron
Magic

Are all better

Audio One

03-05-2014, 01:11 AM

how many people actually saw him play is a better question.

How many people actually saw Michael play, and still rank him as the GOAT though?

navy

03-05-2014, 01:13 AM

how many people actually saw him play is a better question.
This.

navy

03-05-2014, 01:15 AM

How many people actually saw Michael play, and still rank him as the GOAT though?
We at least have his games on tape.

houston

03-05-2014, 01:16 AM

All-nba/ all-star level player on 10 championships

Levity

03-05-2014, 01:17 AM

How many people actually saw Michael play, and still rank him as the GOAT though?

quite a few people

Legends66NBA7

03-05-2014, 01:17 AM

I like how Bill Russell's case for a top 4 player gets knocked because he didn't score much, but Magic Johnson is a top 4 player even though his defense by many is considered sub par.

aj1987

03-05-2014, 01:21 AM

Your whole argument works against MJ as well. No need to exclude him from being bolded.
And that's why I said:

How are they better than Russell? 11 championships. Would've won more than 7 FMVP's if it existed back then. 5x MVP and also would've won the DPOY 6-8 times, if it existed back then. Played like 600 fewer games than Russell and has 5000 more assists. Dude is right up there with MJ as the GOAT.

The only reason that MJ is in the GOAT conversation is because of his Playoff performances. Dude averaged 33/6/6 over 6 Finals. 30+ PPG over his entire Playoff career.

Audio One

03-05-2014, 01:24 AM

quite a few people

I meant on this board, my bad for not clarifying. And no, watching tape with already pre-conceived notions, and already knowing the outcome, isn't the same as watching it unfold in real time

CavaliersFTW

03-05-2014, 01:25 AM

me, Bob Pettit, Sonny Hill, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Elgin Baylor, Sam Jones, Bob Cousy, Tom Heinson, Red Aurbach, Gary Payton, Julius Erving to name a few.

Kiddlovesnets

03-05-2014, 01:26 AM

He is not a top 5 greatest player of all time, Lebron said nothing wrong during all-star weekend.

russwest0

03-05-2014, 01:26 AM

And that's why I said:

The only reason that MJ is in the GOAT conversation is because of his Playoff performances. Dude averaged 33/6/6 over 6 Finals. 30+ PPG over his entire Playoff career.

Yes, and Russell was essentially a Joakim Noah clone back in the day. Not saying he should go down rated along with Noah, just saying, that's what he was.

I mean, didn't Russell play in an era where there were just 8 teams and only one playoff series before the Finals? Are we going to take that into consideration at all?

T_L_P

03-05-2014, 01:27 AM

MJ
Kareem
Shaq
Kobe
Lebron
Magic

Are all better

:oldlol:

aj1987

03-05-2014, 01:29 AM

Yes, and Russell was essentially a Joakim Noah clone back in the day. Not saying he should go down rated along with Noah, just saying, that's what he was.

I mean, didn't Russell play in an era where there were just 8 teams and only one playoff series before the Finals? Are we going to take that into consideration at all?
The Guard and Forward positions were weak as ****, but the center position was stacked. Dude played against some of the best centers EVER.

TheReal Kendall

03-05-2014, 01:29 AM

Why do y'all care so much about rankings?

I.R.Beast

03-05-2014, 01:30 AM

We at least have his games on tape.
exactly...access to jordan games is there...

MavsSuperFan

03-05-2014, 01:31 AM

The man didn't score much wasn't efficient from the field or the ft line. How can someone be top 4 playing great on only one side of the floor for most of his career. A lot of people were hurt Lebron left this guy out of his top 4 i don't see why
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:
You didn't even mention he played in the weakest era of all time an era where tom heinsohn was a star

CavaliersFTW

03-05-2014, 01:32 AM

Yes, and Russell was essentially a Joakim Noah clone back in the day. Not saying he should go down rated along with Noah, just saying, that's what he was.

I mean, didn't Russell play in an era where there were just 8 teams and only one playoff series before the Finals? Are we going to take that into consideration at all?
I've never seen Noah do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2AlFrOj5Mc

MavsSuperFan

03-05-2014, 01:33 AM

Everybody that does is clearly joking, dude won all his rings in a 5 team league. :oldlol:
That's just the thing some of these people think the 1960s NBA was as good as today

SpecialQue

03-05-2014, 01:34 AM

I do. I also honestly think that you're an idiot.

aj1987

03-05-2014, 01:35 AM

I've never seen Noah do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWelUNrJUMM
:bowdown:

Inb4 Russell jumped over a 5 foot white guy, while Noah plays with 9 footers.

TheReal Kendall

03-05-2014, 01:37 AM

That's just the thing some of these people think the 1960s NBA was as good as today

There's really only 5-6 real contenders right now. All the other teams are fodder

Audio One

03-05-2014, 01:40 AM

60's > 90's

fpliii

03-05-2014, 01:42 AM

That's just the thing some of these people think the 1960s NBA was as good as today
I know you and I don't see eye-to-eye on the issue but you surely could've chosen a better poster to quote to support your stance than a guy who posts one-liners and emoticons for 90% of his posts.

russwest0

03-05-2014, 01:45 AM

I've never seen Noah do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2AlFrOj5Mc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U19kQKXsgJ4

:oldlol: ethered. sit down playboy

aj1987

03-05-2014, 01:47 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U19kQKXsgJ4

:oldlol: ethered. sit down playboy
Are you just plain stupid?! Russell jumped over a guy. :facepalm

CavaliersFTW

03-05-2014, 01:48 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U19kQKXsgJ4

:oldlol: ethered. sit down playboy
what did he jump over, i missed it, was it a coin or something someone threw on the floor?

russwest0

03-05-2014, 01:48 AM

Are you just plain stupid?! Russell jumped over a guy. :facepalm

Sorry, in the modern NBA guys don't get jumped over for transition baskets.

CavaliersFTW

03-05-2014, 01:49 AM

Sorry, in the modern NBA guys don't get jumped over for transition baskets.
Why not? Are they less athletic than Bill Russell or something?

The-Legend-24

03-05-2014, 01:50 AM

MJ
Kareem
Shaq
Kobe
Lebron
Magic

Are all better
You can add, Slim reaper, and pretty much every other player considered top 10. :oldlol: Dude is not even top 20, serious.

Asukal

03-05-2014, 02:15 AM

:biggums:

Bill Russell is top 3 at least. You stat obsessed idiots... :facepalm

houston

03-05-2014, 02:15 AM

:oldlol: @ russell couldn't score

he has lead his team in scoring in nba finals b4

CavaliersFTW

03-05-2014, 02:16 AM

:oldlol: @ russell couldn't score

he has lead his team in scoring in nba finals b4
Still owns the NBA Finals series record for FG% :applause:

SamuraiSWISH

03-05-2014, 02:17 AM

Never saw him play. Neither did any of you. If Russell is ranked so high, why isn't Mikan?

Harison

03-05-2014, 02:20 AM

not this shit again with bill russell who didn't score or was efficient.

:facepalm scoring is not the only part of basketball you clowns, it also involves defense, rebounding, leadership, character and many other thing that you all will never have.

This. Young fans will be surprised when they realize basketball is not just scoring :D

And yes, Russell is Top4 and only he and Kareem can be argued as GOATs over MJ.

MichaelCorleone

03-05-2014, 08:23 AM

Top 4

Michael Jordan
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird

SHAQisGOAT

03-05-2014, 08:32 AM

Me.

I got MJ, Kareem, Russell and Bird with Magic extremely close.

11 titles, 5 MVP's, would've gotten a bunch of FMVP's and DPOY's if the award was there for the taken. GOAT defensive player, one of the greatest rebounders, really good passer, capable scorer, incredible IQ and overall intangibles, terrific athlete...
Can't really **** with that, that's definitely top 5 to me, at least, even though I wouldn't put him in my top10 as far as peaks but that's a whole nother story.

ArbitraryWater

03-05-2014, 09:49 AM

I dont... nobody should.

ArbitraryWater

03-05-2014, 09:52 AM

Never saw him play. Neither did any of you. If Russell is ranked so high, why isn't Mikan?

Mikan is a totally different thing... dude couldn't do it in the shotclock era.

Prometheus

03-05-2014, 10:06 AM

I wasn't alive when Russell was playing, but I've watched a lot of game footage and analyzed the circumstances. Boston was getting a first round bye, and only having to beat one team before making the finals. There were 8 or 9 teams in the league total. The sport wasn't fully integrated yet, and it was not played at nearly the level it is today.

I've said this many times, and I'm sure that I will say it many times again in the future. Bill Russell is THE LUCKIEST AND BY FAR THE MOST OVERRATED PLAYER IN BASKETBALL HISTORY. If he were around today, he would be an upgraded version of peak Ben Wallace at best. He belongs NOWHERE NEAR the GOAT discussions.

MichaelCorleone

03-05-2014, 10:07 AM

jzek

03-05-2014, 10:07 AM

He is only top 4 because of he played in a weak era. If he played in the modern era, he'd be borderline All-Star at best. I mean, have you seen clips of him and the level of basketball at the time? Wow.

I think NBA recognition should have two divisions - one for the early era and another for the modern era

Prometheus

03-05-2014, 10:14 AM

If that's the case, same applies to Kareem.

In Kareem's first NBA season, there were 14 teams and no first round playoff bye. He led Milwaukee to a championship in his second season, taking FMVP in a sweep. He would go on to win 6 championships and 6 MVPs, and scored the most points in the history of the game. Your argument is invalid.

16X

03-05-2014, 10:35 AM

Never saw him play. Neither did any of you.
This. I don't rank players that I haven't seen much of, but just going by what little I do know and looking at the stats, there's no way I'm taking Russell over someone like Tim Duncan for example, in a draft.

Psileas

03-05-2014, 10:36 AM

These anti-Russell arguments crack me up. Yeah, I'm sure Russell would exchange some of his rings, MVP's, defensive impact, etc, just for the ability to be a better scorer and be considered better by kiddos who never watched him play and spend half their day in fantasy leagues. :oldlol:
I couldn't care less what a bad scorer he was. I couldn't care less if he averaged 0.5 ppg. If his overall impact on the game was large enough to counter for that and win his team 11 titles as the undisputed best player on his team, he's my choice, period.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U19kQKXsgJ4

:oldlol: ethered. sit down playboy

:facepalm
So not even close it's not even funny. And that play comes from someone who has had 50+ years of medical/technological evolution by his side. Thanks for showing Noah wasn't anywhere near Russell (as if we didn't know that).

Fazotronic

03-05-2014, 11:05 AM

its so funny to see everybody that tries to defend russell.
sure he was great and all but the fact that ppl act as if the nba or basketball hasn't made any progress since 50 ****ing years is a freakin joke.

looking at the amount of teams, the competition, the accessibility, the fact that we're able to record every game and show it to everybody on the world, the popularity and the interest of the sport.

and now ppl come to the forum and just say stuff like, wilt would average 75 ppg today, Russell is the greatest being a defender alone (i know how dare to question someone game when he has 11 titles. i mean everybody would call mutombo or ben wallace the greatest if they won 11 titles being "just" the defensive anchor of the team right?) that would totally happen:facepalm.
don't wanna know the teammates that will make all the points for them and how they will end up in the alltime list with 11 titles but sure as hell all the credit will not just go to the big men.

no surpsrise whatsoever you have ppl that go the other way and disses them and while its disrespectfull its no diffrent form what all those 50's lover do by calling everybody a scrub compare to them.

all the respect to bill but you gotta be the biggest dumbass on earth if you think that in 50 years ppl all around the world will just accept him beeing better than everybody else for all the reasons i mentioned above.

Clyde

03-05-2014, 11:06 AM

quite a few people

On this board??? I question that.

Marlo_Stanfield

03-05-2014, 11:07 AM

whoever puts Russel over Wilt is 100% certified INSANE
:coleman: :coleman:

CavaliersFTW

03-05-2014, 11:11 AM

NumberSix

03-05-2014, 11:12 AM

Does anybody honestly believe Dwight Howard wouldn't win 11 or more rings in Bill's place?

CavaliersFTW

03-05-2014, 11:17 AM

Does anybody honestly believe Dwight Howard wouldn't win 11 or more rings in Bill's place?
lol, an emphatic yes, Dwight couldn't hold those Celtics teams together and keep his coach and teammates happy if his 8 kids out of wedlock depended on it. He'd manage to get Red Aurbach fired than request to leave to go to some other team :oldlol:

Fazotronic

03-05-2014, 11:20 AM

lol at how butthurt people are about accepting Bill Russell as one of the greatest players in NBA history, they are so obsessed with modern players THEY grew up/grow up watching that the older players like Bill Russell c-c-c-c-cant possibly be as good or better, right? :cry:

He only won about 12 basketball titles in 14 years... 8 peat... what a leader...err i mean what a bum

what the FUKK are you loling about? huh? are you serious?
ppl are already talking shit about mj. i can see in every sports show how most of the ppl can't ****ing wait to put lebron over MJ.

if they could they would already have done it. now you think its going to look better for russell that played in a 8 team league? huh? you think they will talk about russell like this for ever?

you should be sad. going by your love for them you should be crying that your own country tv sports show take them out of their stats comparisions.

its just going to be worse and as a hakeem fan i know he will get even more underrated in the future and before you know he won't even be in the top 10 of most catagories until ppl completly forget him.
I HATE THIS BUT I KNOW THIS BUT YOU ARE LIVING IN A BUBBLE AND YOU WILL BE NOT LOLING AT ANYPOINT IN FUTURE AND I TELL YOU THAT.

K Xerxes

03-05-2014, 11:27 AM

If anyone can give me a reasonable argument as to why Russell needed an all time great offensive game, I will concede that he is not top 4. However, as I assume we all agree that the point of basketball is to win and not just collect individual achievements, I don't understand why some of you are knocking a guy who won nine championships in his first ten years (and he was injured the year they didn't win) for focusing on defense and rebounding, and ultimately leading his team to victory almost every damn year he played.

From a purely individual basis, he might not even crack the top 10. But this is a team game, and he personified that better than anyone else in history. He deserves to be ranked this highly.

CavaliersFTW

03-05-2014, 11:28 AM

what the FUKK are you loling about? huh? are you serious?
ppl are already talking shit about mj. i can see in every sports show how most of the ppl can't ****ing wait to put lebron over MJ.

if they could they would already have done it. now you think its going to look better for russell that played in a 8 team league? huh? you think they will talk about russell like this for ever?

you should be sad. going by your love for them you should be crying that your own country tv sports show take them out of they're stats comparisions.

its just going to be worse and as a hakeem fan i know he will get even more underrated in the future and before you know he won't even be in the top 10 of most catagories until ppl completly forget him.
I HATE THIS BUT I KNOW THIS BUT YOU ARE LIVING IN A BUBBLE AND YOU WILL BE NOT LOLING AT ANYPOINT IN FUTURE AND I TELL YOU THAT.
It's no use crying over spilled milk.

I enjoy every player I have the opportunity to study and watch film of throughout NBA history, it doesn't matter when they played I can sit through NCAA games from the 1940's to the 2014 NBA Finals. If others don't/can't understand basketball from years past that's their loss not mine.

NumberSix

03-05-2014, 11:30 AM

If anyone can give me a reasonable argument as to why Russell needed an all time great offensive game, I will concede that he is not top 4. However, as I assume we all agree that the point of basketball is to win and not just collect individual achievements, I don't understand why some of you are knocking a guy who won nine championships in his first ten years (and he was injured the year they didn't win) for focusing on defense and rebounding, and ultimately leading his team to victory almost every damn year he played.
Give me a reason why Magic needed to be a good defender and I'll concede that Jordan was better. Until then, Magic > Jordan.

K Xerxes

03-05-2014, 11:31 AM

Give me a reason why Magic needed to be a good defender and I'll concede that Jordan was better. Until then, Magic > Jordan.

Out of 12 full seasons he played, he won 5 times. Clearly not the same situation here.

NumberSix

03-05-2014, 11:36 AM

Out of 12 full seasons he played, he won 5 times. Clearly not the same situation here.
So what makes Jordan better than magic? Apparently, you have decided it's ok to suck on 1 side of the court if you're able to win despite it.

CavaliersFTW

03-05-2014, 11:36 AM

Give me a reason why Magic needed to be a good defender and I'll concede that Jordan was better. Until then, Magic > Jordan.
Comparison isn't the same... Russell was more successful than Jordan. Magic wasn't.

CavaliersFTW

03-05-2014, 11:37 AM

So what makes Jordan better than magic? Apparently, you have decided it's ok to suck on 1 side of the court if you're able to win despite it.
Who said Russell 'sucked' on offense? He was a serviceable scorer and a GREAT passing big man, could also run the floor as good as any big that ever played.

K Xerxes

03-05-2014, 11:39 AM

So what makes Jordan better than magic? Apparently, you have decided it's ok to suck on 1 side of the court if you're able to win despite it.

Jordan won more, collected more accolades and was a better overall player than Magic, so I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say here.

NumberSix

03-05-2014, 11:40 AM

Jordan won more, collected more accolades and was a better overall player than Magic, so I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say here.
What makes him "better overall"?

stanlove1111

03-05-2014, 11:41 AM

So what makes Jordan better than magic? Apparently, you have decided it's ok to suck on 1 side of the court if you're able to win despite it.

First of all Russell didn't suck on the offensive end. Only someone who doesn't understand basketball would make that claim. He was the greatest rebounder ever and his rebounding and outlet passes led to many easy baskets for his teammates. His teammates have said that Russell was such a great rebounder that they could take off when the other team shot.

He was the greatest defender ever and his block shots to teammates led to many easy points for his teammates. Russell was very valuable to his teams offense.

Now tell us how Magic's defense compares to that.

K Xerxes

03-05-2014, 11:43 AM

What makes him "better overall"?

Offensively they are roughly equal with Magic maybe having the slight advantage due to playmaking and dictating an offense over Jordan's scoring ability. But Jordan was a far superior defender, so it's really no contest.

stanlove1111

03-05-2014, 11:44 AM

[B]Me.

I got MJ, Kareem, Russell and Bird with Magic extremely close.

Add Wilt in there and you are spot on.

NumberSix

03-05-2014, 11:46 AM

Offensively they are roughly equal with Magic maybe having the slight advantage due to playmaking and dictating an offense over Jordan's scoring ability. But Jordan was a far superior defender, so it's really no contest.
We already established Magic didn't need to be a good defender. Didn't we?

Dr.J4ever

03-05-2014, 11:47 AM

lol, an emphatic yes, Dwight couldn't hold those Celtics teams together and keep his coach and teammates happy if his 8 kids out of wedlock depended on it. He'd manage to get Red Aurbach fired than request to leave to go to some other team :oldlol:
People would sometimes say Russel had such great teammates, that winning was inevitable, but I heard it said on this board too, if my memory serves me right, that Russel won titles without any single one of his teammates. Is that true? That is, he won without Cousy, without Havlicek, etc etc..

What really stood out for me was, in the twilight of Bill Russel's career, in the sunset of the Celtic dynasty, having squeaked into the Playoffs in '69, they face a powerful Laker team led by Wilt, West, Baylor, and Bill Russel as player-coach, still manages to win the title in 7 games in a great finish in LA.

That, more than anything else, shows he is arguably the GOAT NBA player.
The greatest WINNER in pro sports.

stanlove1111

03-05-2014, 11:47 AM

I wasn't alive when Russell was playing, but I've watched a lot of game footage and analyzed the circumstances. Boston was getting a first round bye, and only having to beat one team before making the finals. There were 8 or 9 teams in the league total. The sport wasn't fully integrated yet, and it was not played at nearly the level it is today.

.

How many times are we going to have to see this stupid argument. If there were only 8 or 9 teams then it means the best players in the world were jammed into 8 or 9 teams. Meaning they were all stacked.

Russell had to beat 2 all time teams almost every year in the playoffs. Wilt's teams and the stacked Lakers. Is Lerbon going to have to beat more then 2 great teams this year to win title..Nope.

Can we never hear that stupid 8 team argument again?

K Xerxes

03-05-2014, 11:49 AM

We already established Magic didn't need to be a good defender. Didn't we?

My word, you are slow. This is what I said:

Out of 12 full seasons he played, he won 5 times. Clearly not the same situation here.

I said Russell didn't need to be an all time great offensive player because he essentially won nine straight titles from the start of his career when healthy. How you manage to apply that to Magic who won five out of twelve is beyond me.

stanlove1111

03-05-2014, 11:51 AM

We already established Magic didn't need to be a good defender. Didn't we?

Seeing how he lost a ton of playoff series yes if he was a great defender it would have helped his cause.

Russell not be a great Scorer ( different then offensive player ) obviously didn't really hurt his cause. If you can't score you can just pass it to a teammate. If you can't defense you hurt your whole team because you can't pass that on.

Doctor Jay

03-05-2014, 12:13 PM

not me

Uncle Drew

03-05-2014, 12:23 PM

Russell is #3 on my list.

NumberSix

03-05-2014, 01:15 PM

Seeing how he lost a ton of playoff series yes if he was a great defender it would have helped his cause.

Russell not be a great Scorer ( different then offensive player ) obviously didn't really hurt his cause. If you can't score you can just pass it to a teammate. If you can't defense you hurt your whole team because you can't pass that on.
Right. And I don't have to tie my laces because my mommy does it for me. I'm still the best at putting my shoes on.

stanlove1111

03-05-2014, 01:31 PM

Right. And I don't have to tie my laces because my mommy does it for me. I'm still the best at putting my shoes on.

Obviously you missed the post about how many points Russell's rebounding and outlet passing scored for his team. Russell was a great offensive player in a 5 on 5 setting which is what pro basketball is.

Fazotronic

03-05-2014, 02:27 PM

It's no use crying over spilled milk.

I enjoy every player I have the opportunity to study and watch film of throughout NBA history, it doesn't matter when they played I can sit through NCAA games from the 1940's to the 2014 NBA Finals. If others don't/can't understand basketball from years past that's their loss not mine.

well if you can laugh about it good for you. i think its rather sad

Deuce Bigalow

03-05-2014, 03:28 PM

MJ
Russell
Magic
Bird

TheMan

03-05-2014, 04:09 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U19kQKXsgJ4

:oldlol: ethered. sit down playboy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpgMHUHJZNU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

NumberSix

03-05-2014, 04:11 PM

Obviously you missed the post about how many points Russell's rebounding and outlet passing scored for his team. Russell was a great offensive player in a 5 on 5 setting which is what pro basketball is.
You watched a lot of Celtics games in the 60s huh?

HurricaneKid

03-05-2014, 04:28 PM

How many other players in the top 30 never led their team in scoring?

I don't think, on a per minute basis, Russell was ever top 3 on his own team in terms of scoring. There simply isn't another all-time great with any kind of similar resume. We revere offense. In the 11 titles he was 1st on his TEAM in PER twice.

He was obviously a great winner and I don't mean to disparage him but I think he gets a lot of breaks because of our incomplete statistics from the era. What we do know is that at his peak he was the ~4th or 5th option on the dynastic Celtics.

We celebrate him for the greatness of the team and he was certainly an enormous part of that success. But he was not a top 500 offensive player. I don't get how he could go up on Rushmore when no other defensive player is given ANY level of credit on a similar scale.

NumberSix

03-05-2014, 04:32 PM

SpecialQue

03-05-2014, 04:33 PM

Only on ISH is a guy with 11 championships and 5 MVPs not top 4 because "time."

NumberSix

03-05-2014, 04:36 PM

Only on ISH is a guy with 11 championships and 5 MVPs not top 4 because "time."
No, not because of time. Because only 4 players can be top 4.

Artillery

03-05-2014, 04:39 PM

15 ppg on .471 TS% is not what I'd call top 4.

NumberSix

03-05-2014, 04:42 PM

15 ppg on .471 TS% is not what I'd call top 4.
Chris Bosh shits on those stats.

Marchesk

03-05-2014, 04:47 PM

15 ppg on .471 TS% is not what I'd call top 4.

Because individual scoring is the point of the game, not winning titles.

Marchesk

03-05-2014, 04:52 PM

Chris Bosh shits on those stats.

Bill Russell never disappeared in a game 7. What was he, 10-0 in game sevens?

NumberSix

03-05-2014, 04:53 PM

Bill Russell never disappeared in a game 7. What was he, 10-0 in game sevens?
Yeah, because you wouldn't say LeBron disappeared if he put on 15 points on 47 TS%

Marchesk

03-05-2014, 04:53 PM

well if you can laugh about it good for you. i think its rather sad

I think it's rather cool that some people have an interest in history, and aren't just bowing down to whomever ESPN is busy marketing.

ArbitraryWater

03-05-2014, 05:04 PM

How are they better than Russell? 11 championships. Would've won more than 7 FMVP's if it existed back then. 5x MVP and also would've won the DPOY 6-8 times, if it existed back then. Played like 600 fewer games than Russell and has 5000 more assists. Dude is right up there with MJ as the GOAT.

:roll: Do you even care about the actual game at this point? It's all accomplishments :lol

Kareem over Russell isn't even close. On defense he's close peak wise, Kareem would be a 2x DPOY if the Award existed, and on Offense, they're miles apart.

ArbitraryWater

03-05-2014, 05:04 PM

Yeah, because you wouldn't say LeBron disappeared if he put on 15 points on 47 TS%

This. Russell's standarts are incredibly low

Marchesk

03-05-2014, 05:07 PM

Yeah, because you wouldn't say LeBron disappeared if he put on 15 points on 47 TS%

It was 18.6 ppg, 29.3 rbg over those 10 games. Don't know about the TS%. Probably should figure around 8 blocks. His career assist average was 4.3, so something around that.

If Lebron or Bosh did that, I wouldn't call it disappearing. In the 1962 NBA finals against LA, Russell had 30 points and 40 rebounds. The score was 110-107. Baylor had 41 and West 35 in a losing effort.

For that series, Russell averaged 22.9/27/5.7 on 54.3% shooting. I could go through all 12 (including the one they lost to St. Louis where he got hurt), and calculate his totals, if that helps.

People rate MJ as the GOAT in no small part due to his champion performances. Russell wasn't too shoddy either.

bdreason

03-05-2014, 05:08 PM

I have him at #3. The only reason I don't have him at #1 is because I didn't get to see him play, and I feel more comfortable ranking two guys I did see play, Kareem and MJ, over him.

Rake2204

03-05-2014, 05:09 PM

I guess sam jones is top 4 toOne of the aspects I find interesting about the ol' Bill Russell debate is how Russell earns a heap load of credit and respect for being a guy who only cared about team success (since he won 11 championships). But ironically, with that push, it seems some of his most impactful teammates have often been forgotten, or their roles in winning championships lessened in comparison to their teammate Rusell.

Many arguments in Russell's favor almost seem to suggest he won all 11 championships individually, like a tennis player. I believe it's a valid question to wonder whether Russell would be as revered if his team weren't made up of the likes of John Havlicek, Sam Jones, Tom Heinsohn, and Satch Sanders.

Sam Jones in particular, was a winner of ten NBA championships. He also averaged over 20 points per game during six separate championship runs. My argument is not that he should be one of the top four players of all-time, nor that he should receive the same amount of credit as Russell for Boston's victories over the years, but the credit does seem awfully disproportionate when considering the Celtics' emphasis on team when it came to success.

If we were discussing an individual sport, and Russell had in fact won 11 championships, it'd almost feel like an open & shut case when considering him as the single greatest player of all-time. But to come to such a conclusion in a team sport, particularly when surrounded by Hall of Fame teammates, seems to oversimplify things a little bit.

Quickening

03-05-2014, 05:10 PM

People literally have never seen him play a whole game, and they legitimately get mad if people question him being top 4 ever :lol :roll:

He won 11 rings therefore he auto top 4!!:mad: :mad:

fpliii

03-05-2014, 05:11 PM

Stay mad.

NumberSix

03-05-2014, 05:11 PM

People literally have never seen him play a whole game, and they legitimately get mad if people question him being top 4 ever :lol :roll:

He won 11 rings therefore he auto top 4!!:mad: :mad:
Yet the guy with 10 rings is a complete nobody to them.

Sarcastic

03-05-2014, 05:12 PM

15 ppg on .471 TS% is not what I'd call top 4.

Do you have Wilt in your top 4 then?

30.1 on 54% :bowdown:

Sarcastic

03-05-2014, 05:13 PM

People literally have never seen him play a whole game, and they legitimately get mad if people question him being top 4 ever :lol :roll:

He won 11 rings therefore he auto top 4!!:mad: :mad:

How many people have seen Pele play? How many people have seen Babe Ruth play? How many people have seen Sugar Ray Robinson fight?

fpliii

03-05-2014, 05:14 PM

Yet the guy with 10 rings is a complete nobody to them.

Team O D pO pD
57 BOS -0% 6% -0% 6%
58 BOS -1% 6% -2% 8%
59 BOS 0% 6% -1% 10%
60 BOS 2% 6% -2% 10%
61 BOS -3% 8% 2% 10%
62 BOS -0% 9% -3% 9%
63 BOS -2% 9% -4% 8%
64 BOS -4% 12% -4% 15%
65 BOS -3% 11% -4% 11%
66 BOS -3% 8% 3% 5%
67 BOS 2% 5% -7% 9%
68 BOS -1% 5% 2% 4%
69 BOS -2% 7% 4% 6%

An offensive player with 10 rings leading his teams (stacked with offensive talent) to below average offenses while a defensive player with 11 rings (without a dominant defensive supporting cast) leads his teams to GOAT level defenses? Yeah, same shit.

Marchesk

03-05-2014, 05:16 PM

The only finals Russell's team lost was when he got hurt. The only time they lost in the playoffs was to an all-time great Wilt team. Russell and his teammaters were busy denying Wilt, Oscar, Petit and the West/Baylor combination.

Those are top 20 all-timers. Russell's teams were still winning titles when they weren't supposed to, against Wilt/West/Baylor! And West is the GOAT playoff performer, outside of Jordan (and Russell).

NumberSix

03-05-2014, 05:16 PM

It's amazing how much defense counts or doesn't count depending on which player we're talking about.

fpliii

03-05-2014, 05:17 PM

It's amazing how much defense counts or doesn't count depending on which player we're talking about.
Don't play dumb, not a good look. It's not binary here, playing defense or not. There's a very wide spectrum. Hakeem playing defense isn't the same as MJ playing defense.

Stop shifting the goalposts.

NumberSix

03-05-2014, 05:18 PM

Don't play dumb, not a good look. It's not binary here, playing defense or not. There's a very wide spectrum. Hakeem playing defense isn't the same as MJ playing defense.

Stop shifting the goalposts.
Hakeem's defense was better than Russell's. Is he top 4 too?

fpliii

03-05-2014, 05:20 PM

Hakeem's defense was better than Russell's. Is he top 4 too?
Based on...? The defensive results aren't close to Russell's (don't shift the goalposts again).

CavaliersFTW

03-05-2014, 05:21 PM

Hakeem's defense was better than Russell's. Is he top 4 too?
lol hell no

stanlove1111

03-05-2014, 06:07 PM

You watched a lot of Celtics games in the 60s huh?
Actually I did.

Funny that you are basically saying that you can't rank him if you didn't see him play, at the same time you are arguing about his rank without seeing him play..

stanlove1111

03-05-2014, 06:12 PM

Keep it real. Bill Russell is only relevant because he happens to be the guy that has the most titles. He lucked his way to 11. The guy who lucked his way to 10 is utterly irrelevant. If somebody had lucked their way to 12, Bill Russell would be utterly irrelevant too. If Robert Horry managed to luck his way to 12 instead of 7, Bill Russell would be as forgotten as Sam Jones.

Sam Jones never won an MVP aware or even close to it, and the Celtics where winning before he ever showed up, and before he even earned a starting role.

Ignoring that when comparing him to Russell is silly.

HurricaneKid

03-05-2014, 06:15 PM

stanlove1111

03-05-2014, 06:16 PM

:roll: Do you even care about the actual game at this point? It's all accomplishments :lol

Kareem over Russell isn't even close. On defense he's close peak wise, Kareem would be a 2x DPOY if the Award existed, and on Offense, they're miles apart.

Wrong. On offense they are close when you consider how much of a better rebounder Russell was which led to outlet passes that let to points for his teammates. And how many of his blocked shots that led to fast breaks for his team.

You obviously don't know the different between great scorer and great offensive player.

fpliii

03-05-2014, 06:23 PM

Where do you have Ben Wallace in the all time greats? He was the best defender since the merger and led his team to a win against the Heavily favored Shaq/Kobe/Malone/Payton Lakers.

His defense was so strong it carried him to a top 5 RAPM rating 5 straight years despite a negative off rtg.

I bet he didn't even register to you.

So why all of a sudden, out of the blue, does ONE GUY get credit for playing incredible defense?
Bolded is false, but to answer your question, Russell's teams were putting up the same performances as the peak Pistons every single year of Russell's career regardless of who else was on the team (look at the roster/lineup changes, yet the results don't change until Russ enters/leaves).

Big Ben is obviously one of the best defenders ever though, and a top 50 player in NBA history in terms of impact.

Pushxx

03-05-2014, 06:28 PM

The goal of basketball is to win, and Bill Russell is one of the best winners in sports history.

moe94

03-05-2014, 06:31 PM

Wrong. On offense they are close
:oldlol:

Marchesk

03-05-2014, 06:33 PM

jlip

03-05-2014, 06:34 PM

Basically anyone who has an understanding of how the game was played before 1984.

stanlove1111

03-05-2014, 07:09 PM

:oldlol:

Moe is obviously little boy who doesn't understand basketball. Gee how rare around here.

moe94

03-05-2014, 07:26 PM

Says the guy trying to argue Bill Russell was comparable to KAJ on offense.

Pacer24

03-05-2014, 07:28 PM

Yes Bill Russell deserves to be on that mount rushmore

HurricaneKid

03-05-2014, 07:32 PM

Wallace averaged 10 points and 3 assists less than Russell did. And he won 10 less titles. That's like asking why Rodman isn't top 4 all-time.

Russell was never a top 3 scorer on his team (the few years he was it was only because the min he was playing). He was an offensive afterthought. And his rebounding is massively overrated. When I die the record for most rebounds in a game will be 55. As in Wilt got 55 rebs on Russell. He shot below the league avg. Was a bad FT shooter. Was he as offensively inept as Wallace, probably not but not by as much as one would assume.

And to anyone that thinks anyone was a better defender than Wallace in the last 40 years: you are wrong. I'm perfectly willing to give Russell massive credit for his defense. And usually I am the one arguing that defense is WAY underrated. But I think the numbers speak for themselves.

aj1987

03-05-2014, 07:32 PM

:roll: Do you even care about the actual game at this point? It's all accomplishments :lol

Kareem over Russell isn't even close. On defense he's close peak wise, Kareem would be a 2x DPOY if the Award existed, and on Offense, they're miles apart.
:facepalm

Read your post again and and punch yourself for being that stupid.

The Celtics were 6th defensively the year before Russell joined them. During Russell's rookie year, they won the Finals while being the best defensive team in the NBA.

Only ONE season during Russell's tenure with the Celtics, they were NOT the BEST defensive team in the NBA. They were second that season. The Wilt led Sixers were the best that year. Just try to comprehend that. Russell anchored the Celtics' defense for 13 years and they weren't the best defensive team in the league only ONCE.

The season after Russell's retirement, the Celtics dropped to 8th defensively. If I'm not mistaken, they didn't even make the playoffs that season.

Russell led the Celtics a couple of times in scoring, during the Finals. KAJ played like 600 fewer games than Russell and has 5000 more rebounds. You're talking about a 2x DPOY KAJ? Russell, by all accounts, should've won the award 7-8 times.

fpliii

03-05-2014, 07:34 PM

Russell was never a top 3 scorer on his team (the few years he was it was only because the min he was playing). He was an offensive afterthought. And his rebounding is massively overrated. When I die the record for most rebounds in a game will be 55. As in Wilt got 55 rebs on Russell. He shot below the league avg. Was a bad FT shooter. Was he as offensively inept as Wallace, probably not but not by as much as one would assume.

And to anyone that thinks anyone was a better defender than Wallace in the last 40 years: you are wrong. I'm perfectly willing to give Russell massive credit for his defense. And usually I am the one arguing that defense is WAY underrated. But I think the numbers speak for themselves.
You don't think any of:

KG
Hakeem
Duncan
Mutombo
Admiral
Zo

has a case?

NumberSix

03-05-2014, 08:16 PM

Bill Russell deserves to be on the Mount Rushmore of his own era. Not of all time though.

CavaliersFTW

03-05-2014, 08:39 PM

Bill Russell deserves to be on the Mount Rushmore of his own era. Not of all time though.
Which sculpture do you think produced Brans Rushmore pebble? Personally I'd like to think it came from a fragment of one of the gems in Russell's 11 rings but that's just me being hopeful.

http://sportsweeksportslist.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/bill-russell-has-11-rings-with-the-boston-celtics.jpg

moe94

03-05-2014, 08:50 PM

And to anyone that thinks anyone was a better defender than Wallace in the last 40 years: you are wrong.

Dream
KG
Duncan

KirbyPls

03-05-2014, 09:27 PM

Which sculpture do you think produced Brans Rushmore pebble? Personally I'd like to think it came from a fragment of one of the gems in Russell's 11 rings but that's just me being hopeful.

http://sportsweeksportslist.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/bill-russell-has-11-rings-with-the-boston-celtics.jpg

Almost all that bling came as the third-leading scorer on title teams in an 8-team league! GOAT! :bowdown: