Is Pau Gasol the most underrated player of all-time?

[Electric Slide]

I think it's unbelievable how disrespected and underrated this guy is. He gets all the blame even though he doesn't even do anything wrong most of the time. His ability to dominate the glass and score in the post with his skill is remarkable.

We're also talking about a guy that led his team to a championship in 2010 and should have been the Finals MVP but was robbed of it.

He is a top 50 player of all-time and probably the most underrated player of all-time.

[MavsSuperFan]

I think it's unbelievable how disrespected and underrated this guy is. He gets all the blame even though he doesn't even do anything wrong most of the time. His ability to dominate the glass and score in the post with his skill is remarkable.

We're also talking about a guy that led his team to a championship in 2010 and should have been the Finals MVP but was robbed of it.

He is a top 50 player of all-time and probably the most underrated player of all-time.
:lol :oldlol:

On this site gasol is overrated. People here argue he was more important than Kobe in winning those too championships.

I like Gasol, but he showed how bad his teams were with him as the first option on the grizz

[Electric Slide]

:lol :oldlol:

On this site gasol is overrated. People here argue he was more important than Kobe in winning those too championships.
He was the best player in the 2010 run and he was the catalyst in the 2009 run.

[KyleKong]

On this site gasol is overrated. People here argue he was more important than Kobe in winning those too championships.

There is a strong argument for 2010 that he was the better player in the series.

[ILLsmak]

:lol :oldlol:

On this site gasol is overrated. People here argue he was more important than Kobe in winning those too championships.

I like Gasol, but he showed how bad his teams were with him as the first option on the grizz

lol 50 wins bad?

-Smak

[Levity]

Pau Gasol...

Underrated by Kobe stans
Overrated by Kobe Haters
Appreciated by Laker fans.

[TonyMontana]

Win Shares Per 48 minute Comparison

2008
Kobe: .208
Pau(as a Laker): .239

2009
Kobe: .206
Pau: .223

2010
Kobe: .160
Pau: .220

2011
Kobe: .178
Pau: .232

[SpurrDurr]

He's not underrated but after last season he became another scapegoat and mildly hated.

I thought LA fans (Kobe blind fans mostly) would spare him but oh god if i was wrong.

Then a couple of weeks ago Kobe tweeted an old pic with him and Gasol hugging and everyone is in love with him again.

[daily]

He's not underrated but after last season he became another scapegoat and mildly hated.

I thought LA fans (Kobe blind fans mostly) would spare him but oh god if i was wrong.

Then a couple of weeks ago Kobe tweeted an old pic with him and Gasol hugging and everyone is in love with him again. Kobe fan boys don't like anyone not named Kobe :lol

True fans know his worth and have always appreciated what he brings to the team. He's not above criticism by any means but he is and has been a valuable piece to this team and I for one and happy to see him here for another season.

[Jacks3]

hes actually overrated.

never has received a single MVP vote. not one.
0-16 in the playoffs without kobe.
before LA he was regarded as nothing more a top 20 player/borderline all-star. he made 1 all-star in 8 seasons. no All-NBA teams. never regarded as top 5 at his own position. his +/- numbers ranked somewhere in the 200's. his team (grizzlies) had zero problems winning when he was out.

that being said he was phenomenal for the lakers from 08-10.

but you have people saying he was the best big in the league some of those years (LOL), people saying he was the lakers best player in 2010 (WTF?), and i've even heard people say hes top 50 all-time. LOL.

smh.

[funnystuff]

hes actually overrated.

never has received a single MVP vote. not one.
0-16 in the playoffs without kobe.
before LA he was regarded as nothing more a top 20 player/borderline all-star. he made 1 all-star in 8 seasons. no All-NBA teams. never regarded as top 5 at his own position. his +/- numbers ranked somewhere in the 200's. his team (grizzlies) had zero problems winning when he was out.

that being said he was phenomenal for the lakers from 08-10.

but you have people saying he was the best big in the league some of those years (LOL), people saying he was the lakers best player in 2010 (WTF?), and i've even heard people say hes top 50 all-time. LOL.

smh.
Kobe without a dominant big man either A. Misses the playoffs or B. Gets raped(pun not intended) in the first round.

[GrapeApe]

Pau Gasol...

Underrated by Kobe stans
Overrated by Kobe Haters
Appreciated by Laker fans.

This. He's probably a bit underrated by casual fans but most non biased, non agenda driven fans have him rated pretty fairly. He's a great player and future HOFer, but not "Shaq 2" as some Kobe haters would lead you to believe.

[kennethgriffin]

people call him a hall of famer

and hes


0-16 in the playoffs as leader

4 time reserve allstar

3rd team all nba ( twice )

2nd team all nba ( once )



i dunno about all you guys. but i think that means hes overrated

[Jacks3]

Kobe without a dominant big man either A. Misses the playoffs or B. Gets raped(pun not intended) in the first round.
except pau has never been remotely close to "dominant". ever.

this "dominant" force was without bryant for 8 seasons. and he was never anything more than a 3rd-tier star/borderline all-star. like i said, 1 all-star team in 8 seasons. :oldlol:

and kobe went to three straight finals and won back-to-back chips with him.

try again. :lol

[Electric Slide]

Pau Gasol in 2010 when he was the best player and the real Finals MVP on that championship Lakers team was pretty dominant.

[Jacks3]

dominant is a word reserved for the likes of prime duncan, kg, hakeem, moses, dirk, kareem, wilt, russ, shaq etc. not freaking 2nd tier guys like pau gasol.

nothing more than a borderline all-star before la.

now hes a dominant player.

:oldlol:

[Le Shaqtus]

We're also talking about a guy that led his team to a championship in 2010 and should have been the Finals MVP but was robbed of it.

Just because you keep saying something that doesn't make it true.

[secund2nun]

Gasol= 2010 finals MVP and he was better in the 2009 finals than Kobe was.

Gasol= Kobe. It was a Robin-Robin-Bynum-Odom squad coach by God himself.

[secund2nun]

Just because you keep saying something that doesn't make it true.


It was true. Get your head out of the sand.

[GrapeApe]

dominant is a word reserved for the likes of prime duncan, kg, hakeem, moses, dirk, kareem, wilt, russ, shaq etc. not freaking 2nd tier guys like pau gasol.

nothing more than a borderline all-star before la.

now hes a dominant player.

:oldlol:

Gasol was never as dominant as the guys you mentioned, but during his peak years with the Lakers you could certainly argue he was a dominant player. He has since declined, but he was a beast from '08-'10. Sure, joining a great organization with a future HOFer and GOAT coach helped maximize his abilities, but that goes without saying. He would have been a beast those years regardless.

[Jacks3]

he was great from 08-10. top 10 player in 2009 and 2010. but not dominant.

there's a big difference for me.

and he played 8 seasons for memphis. you telling he changed so much as a player after 8 freaking seasons? get real. he obviously benefited tremendously from the presence of a prime kobe and phil.

for example, 2008 before LA: 57% TS, After: 64%

lol i suppose thats just a coincidence right? :roll:

c'mon now. any team with 08-10 pau as their best player ain't winning shit.

luckily he had a top 2 player in the world next to him.

[funnystuff]

except pau has never been remotely close to "dominant". ever.

this "dominant" force was without bryant for 8 seasons. and he was never anything more than a 3rd-tier star/borderline all-star. like i said, 1 all-star team in 8 seasons. :oldlol:

and kobe went to three straight finals and won back-to-back chips with him.

try again. :lol
I understand you hate every Laker not named Kobe, I understand denial.

Its okay friend.




:banana:

[Jacks3]

:lol

[kennethgriffin]

gasol averages 10 less ppg than kobe in 2010... hes the real finals mvp


kobe averages 0.4 less ppg than shaq in 2001 and 2002... shaq gifted kobe a ring



























yep

[daily]

gasol averages 10 less ppg than kobe in 2010... hes the real finals mvp


kobe averages 0.4 less ppg than shaq in 2001 and 2002... shaq gifted kobe a ring

yep:lol

[Le Shaqtus]

It was true. Get your head out of the sand.

Maybe you should learn basketball :banana:

[tpols]

You draft Pau Gasol, youre not winning much more than 2 playoff games in a decade(possibly 0 or negative).



Unless of course you draft a player better than him later on down the road that can pull his pants back up after his hooks/dunks.

[KG215]

You draft Pau Gasol, youre not winning much more than 2 playoff games in a decade(possibly 0 or negative).



Unless of course you draft a player better than him later on down the road that can pull his pants back up after his hooks/dunks.
I'm sorry, but that's a shortsighted way of putting what Gasol was without Kobe into perspective. We have no idea what Gasol would've done on his own had he stayed in Memphis and they surrounded him with some better pieces. He was at the age players generally peak in LA, not Memphis. I'm not saying he would've been leading the Grizzlies to a championship or even out of the 1st or 2nd round, but it's not inconceivable to think he could've won a few playoff games and maybe even a series or two had he stayed in Memphis and they added some better pieces. His supporting casts were never anything more than mediocre, at best.

And where do Laker/Kobe fans get 0-16 from? He was 0-for-3 (0-12) in the playoffs in Memphis, so I'm guessing that means they're holding this year against him?

[Electric Slide]

You draft Pau Gasol, youre not winning much more than 2 playoff games in a decade(possibly 0 or negative).



Unless of course you draft a player better than him later on down the road that can pull his pants back up after his hooks/dunks.
If you want draft Kobe Bryant, you're not winning any playoff series. IS there much of a difference between getting swept in the first round and winning a few games only to lose? I mean, you still lost in the first round.

At least with Gasol, you know get Finals MVP play and a guy that can lead a team to a title. This is why he is underrated.

[Nastradamus]

Probably about a top 10 PF of all time. Somewhere at the bottom of the list though for sure. Below Duncan,Malone,Barkley,Mchale,Webber,Hayes,Dirk at the least.

[daily]

And where do Laker/Kobe fans get 0-16 from? He was 0-for-3 (0-12) in the playoffs in Memphis, so I'm guessing that means they're holding this year against him?
Yeah that's the point he was making Pau is 0-16 in playoffs games without Kobe.

Simplistic view but reading this thread and others that seems to be the norm for both sides of the argument when it comes to ISH :lol

[VIntageNOvel]

gasol, shit without kobe, good impact with kobe = GOAT big man, real FMVP :bowdown:
mo will, andy v, etc, shit without lebron, good impact with lebron = Lebron make his teammates better :bowdown:

:facepalm

[KG215]

Yeah that's the point he was making Pau is 0-16 in playoffs games without Kobe.

Simplistic view but reading this thread and others that seems to be the norm for both sides of the argument when it comes to ISH :lol
That's what I figured, but I'm not holding 2013 against Pau. By, what, game 1 or 2 they were fielding a starting backcourt of Goudelock and Darius Morris, right? That team had a ton of injury issues and, on top of that, Gasol is clearly pas his prime and nowhere near the player he was a few years ago.

ANd yeah, most of the Kobe and LeBron fanboys have just bypassed contextual, critical thinking when it comes to making arguments, and just post the most simplistic things imaginable;and, if you dare disagree or try to question them, you get attacked by all of them and called names, because you're trying to put their "facts" and "stats" into context, which apparently makes you the idiot and a hater.

[Heavincent]

It's funny because the OP was a Kobe stan on one of his other accounts that got banned.

[branslowski]

gasol averages 10 less ppg than kobe in 2010... hes the real finals mvp


kobe averages 0.4 less ppg than shaq in 2001 and 2002... shaq gifted kobe a ring

]

This. Kobe haters always reachin:roll: :roll:

[Electric Slide]

gasol averages 10 less ppg than kobe in 2010... hes the real finals mvp


kobe averages 0.4 less ppg than shaq in 2001 and 2002... shaq gifted kobe a ring



























yep
check out the rebounding the difference between the two and then defense which can't be measured by stats where Kobe does nothing while Shaq and Gasol are tremendous at.

[eliteballer]

electric slide...Kobe's career shits on the legacy of your WHOLE FRANCHISE:roll:

[kennethgriffin]

check out the rebounding the difference between the two and then defense which can't be measured by stats where Kobe does nothing while Shaq and Gasol are tremendous at.


a center is supposed to rebound more than a guard

just like a guard is supposed to assist more than a center

kobe was the best play maker for LA and averaged 6-7 assists for every laker championship he was a part of


as for defense



shaq

1999-00 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2000-01 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2002-03 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)

kobe

1999-00 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2000-01 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2001-02 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2002-03 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2003-04 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2005-06 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2006-07 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2007-08 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2011-12 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
















http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKdcjJoXeEY

[Electric Slide]

electric slide...Kobe's career shits on the legacy of your WHOLE FRANCHISE:roll:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=309899

[kennethgriffin]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=309899


kobe accomplished at age 22 what the knicks did after 60 years of existence





















http://i39.tinypic.com/2dac8yx.jpg

[tpols]

I'm sorry, but that's a shortsighted way of putting what Gasol was without Kobe into perspective. We have no idea what Gasol would've done on his own had he stayed in Memphis and they surrounded him with some better pieces. He was at the age players generally peak in LA, not Memphis. I'm not saying he would've been leading the Grizzlies to a championship or even out of the 1st or 2nd round, but it's not inconceivable to think he could've won a few playoff games and maybe even a series or two had he stayed in Memphis and they added some better pieces. His supporting casts were never anything more than mediocre, at best.

And where do Laker/Kobe fans get 0-16 from? He was 0-for-3 (0-12) in the playoffs in Memphis, so I'm guessing that means they're holding this year against him?
He was the same player the few years before on memphis as he was in LA.. His passing, rebounding, shooting everything was basically the same. It's just that in Memphis teams could converge on him and his teammates relied on his production much more.. Two sources of pressure that were completely released when he joined kobe.

In LA He saw way less defensive attention, was not being leaned on in times of weakness, and was able to control the glass better with Kobe drawing the defense outwards bringing gang rebounder out of the paint and having another big body beside him in Odom to help bang down low and clear out.


I wish I knew how many more putback and easy dump off finishes pau had in LA as compared to memphis. It would be a huge difference

So I disagree that you can look at plus play as a second option in a much more comfortable role and transpose those numbers onto what he'd be able to do if he was still a first option.. Because of all the differences I listed.

[imdaman99]

electric slide...Kobe's career shits on the legacy of your WHOLE FRANCHISE:roll:
hes not a knicks fan. dont lump RG in as a knicks fan, we have enough idiots :facepalm

[daily]

That's what I figured, but I'm not holding 2013 against Pau.

You can't but people do. :lol
And I agree with the rest of your post too. Good stuff

[KG215]

He was the same player the few years before on memphis as he was in LA.. His passing, rebounding, shooting everything was basically the same. It's just that in Memphis teams could converge on him and his teammates relied on his production much more.. Two sources of pressure that were completely released when he joined kobe.

In LA He saw way less defensive attention, was not being leaned on in times of weakness, and was able to control the glass better with Kobe drawing the defense outwards bringing gang rebounder out of the paint and having another big body beside him in Odom to help bang down low and clear out.


I wish I knew how many more putback and easy dump off finishes pau had in LA as compared to memphis. It would be a huge difference

So I disagree that you can look at plus play as a second option in a much more comfortable role and transpose those numbers onto what he'd be able to do if he was still a first option.. Because of all the differences I listed.
First off, I don't necessarily agree he was the same player in LA that he was in Memphis. The stats may not show it, but players at that level tend to progress from 25 to 28/29 years old to some extent. Maybe with Pau, though, the improvement was minimal?

My point is, Id on't think you can just look at what Pau had done up to that point in the playoffs and Memphis, and come to the definitive conclusion that a decade's worth of Pau Gasol might net you 2 playoff wins. Mike Conley was a rookie the year Gasol was traded; Rudy Gay was (I think) in his second or thhird year when Gasol got traded; and Mike Miller and Pau were about the same age and had started to come into their own.

I'm not saying that's a threat (it'd depend on how they filled in the rest of the roster with FA's and role players) to do much more than win a few games in the 1st round or maybe get to the 2nd round once, but it's still a decent and better core than what he actually had in Memphis when he was getting swept out of the playoffs.

[fpliii]

a center is supposed to rebound more than a guard

just like a guard is supposed to assist more than a center

Doesn't work that way griff. Passing/ballhandling are just parts of offense. Rebounding is either its own phase of the game, or part of both offense and defense. Don't try to say assists = rebounds.

Obviously assists are more important for guards and rebounds for centers, but I know where you're going with this bro.

[lakerfreak]

He's underrated because of his lack of flash during games and his unselfishness for his teammates. Unfortunately the teammates he'd played with in Memphis weren't good enough to create a good supporting cast.

He's underrated because when guys like Kobe are going off for unthinkable games, he gets almost no credit.

Additionally he had the nickname of "Gasoft" by many. Meant to be funny more than actually criticize.

Although he wasn't our best player, without him, Kobe sits on the 3 rings that were "gifted" to him by Shaq.

[kennethgriffin]

Doesn't work that way griff. Passing/ballhandling are just parts of offense. Rebounding is either its own phase of the game, or part of both offense and defense. Don't try to say assists = rebounds.

Obviously assists are more important for guards and rebounds for centers, but I know where you're going with this bro.


everyone has a job to do.. if you're the main play maker, main ball handler, main clutch player while putting up 30ppg ontop of that and also filling up the rebounding sheet with 6-7 of your own at 2guard... then going to the other side of the floor and playing 1st team all nba defense ( something shaq never did )

i'm pretty sure that atleast puts kobe on par with the best guy on the team at grabbing some balls out of the air


not saying rebounding isnt important. but its no more important than any other main aspect of the game. everythings equally important

[tpols]

First off, I don't necessarily agree he was the same player in LA that he was in Memphis. The stats may not show it, but players at that level tend to progress from 25 to 28/29 years old to some extent. Maybe with Pau, though, the improvement was minimal?

My point is, Id on't think you can just look at what Pau had done up to that point in the playoffs and Memphis, and come to the definitive conclusion that a decade's worth of Pau Gasol might net you 2 playoff wins. Mike Conley was a rookie the year Gasol was traded; Rudy Gay was (I think) in his second or thhird year when Gasol got traded; and Mike Miller and Pau were about the same age and had started to come into their own.

I'm not saying that's a threat (it'd depend on how they filled in the rest of the roster with FA's and role players) to do much more than win a few games in the 1st round or maybe get to the 2nd round once, but it's still a decent and better core than what he actually had in Memphis when he was getting swept out of the playoffs.
Maybe they win a few games.. Not much though if past evidence means anything.


I hate the revisionist history going on though.. Pau was never considered better than Amare, or Bosh or Brand, or Dirk or Duncan back right before he came to LA. He was your typical 20/10 all star big man. Like a handful of other guys.

Like if 08-10 Amare is on LA he probably throws up 23/8-9 more explosive scoring, less passing and rebounding but still with Odom and part time Bynum a formidable frontcourt, probably still the best in the league. Same thing with Bosh, hell take Lamarcus Aldridge and put him on LA and he's a 20/10 guy too(I feel he's very very underrated).



Pau Gasol was replaceable with a lot of big men and LA still wins two chips. Throw 2011 zbo on that team is Las frontcourt any less dominant than with Pau? They're still shitting on teams down low with him and zbo would clean Kobe's bricks up even more

[fpliii]

everyone has a job to do.. if you're the main play maker, main ball handler, main clutch player while putting up 30ppg ontop of that and also filling up the rebounding sheet with 6-7 of your own at 2guard... then going to the other side of the floor and playing 1st team all nba defense ( something shaq never did )

i'm pretty sure that atleast puts kobe on par with the best guy on the team at grabbing some balls out of the air


not saying rebounding isnt important. but its no more important than any other main aspect of the game. everythings equally important

Technicality, there's only one center spot on the All-Defense first team. Shaq's D is more impactful than any non-big's in league history. Lazy on pick and rolls, but an elite rim protector/interior presence.

This has nothing to do with 2 guards though, as you said their job is almost 100% offense. I don't compare bigs and wings anyway, they're different players.

This has nothing to do with Kobe though, he's a great, great player. Aside from a few bigs he's in the top echelon of players. Very skilled guy.

[TonyMontana]

Lol @ kennethgriffin trying to throw out the rebounding and defense because their centers.

This is basketball and whether you like it or not size is a big part of how much a player can impact the game. Them being centers is an advantage, not an excuse.

All of the top ten players are 6'8 and above except for Jordan who is the best scorer ever with a career average of 30 PPG on 50% shooting. This is in a sport where the average player in the league is 6'5. Size matters.

[Legends66NBA7]

Either Rick Barry or Dave Cowens.

[Segatti]

He is the most overrated by Kobe haters, that's for sure.

[MavsSuperFan]

lol 50 wins bad?

-Smak

and playoff failures
-Mavs

[MavsSuperFan]

Pau Gasol...

Underrated by Kobe stans
Overrated by Kobe Haters
Appreciated by Laker fans.

I actually agree with this

Kobe stans that try to paint him as a scrub are just as bad.

But Gasol was the second option on those teams. He melts under pressure. He knew that if they failed kobe would get the blame and this helped him. Kobe haters try to argue for gasol > kobe purely to diminish Kobe.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Gasol is an all time great supplemental player along with the other great beta caliber players though out league history like Pippen, Worthy, Bosh, Stockton, McHale ... No one with a grasp on history would dare claim Gasol's an MVP caliber co-alpha type player like Wade, Drexler, 2001 / 2002 Kobe, etc

[MavsSuperFan]

Gasol is the most mentally soft player I have ever watched. He makes Lebron look mentally tough in comparison.

He let 2 obviously offensively inferior players displace him from his position in the offense.
He hurt his team by not asserting himself as the better offensive option compared to bynum and dwight.

They are both much better defensively, but I have always thought pau was better offensively. I remember pau owning D12 in the finals and he beasted for a while in the olympic gold medal game against USA.

He just need to be a center on offense. Not shooting outside or midrange jumpers. He is too soft to assert himself.

[qrich]

In some ways, he is underrated, and in other ways, he's overrated. He got thrown into a good position, and more than just delivered. He was a key catalyst in why the Lakers won back to back, no matter what some idiots say.

With that said, I'd take prime Elton Brand without even thinking twice.

[kennethgriffin]

Technicality, there's only one center spot on the All-Defense first team. Shaq's D is more impactful than any non-big's in league history. Lazy on pick and rolls, but an elite rim protector/interior presence.

This has nothing to do with 2 guards though, as you said their job is almost 100% offense. I don't compare bigs and wings anyway, they're different players.

This has nothing to do with Kobe though, he's a great, great player. Aside from a few bigs he's in the top echelon of players. Very skilled guy.

they found a way for 7 foot tim duncan to flip from C to F any time they wanted to put him on the all defensive team lol

if shaq absolutely had to make it.. theyed have put big ben or alonzo at PF a few times


:lol

[longtime lurker]

He ain't even top 50 by most rankings.

[LA Lakers]

Pau is not even close to being the most underrated. Id say based on newer generations knowledge of the game Id say Moses Malone or maybe a guy like Hondo.

[Nashty]

Lakers With Kobe: 308-147 (.677)
Lakers Without Kobe: 14-7 (.667)

Lakers With Gasol: 257-112 (.696)
Lakers Without Gasol: 35-26 (.574)

Gasol>Kobe :cheers:

[Electric Slide]

Lakers With Kobe: 308-147 (.677)
Lakers Without Kobe: 14-7 (.667)

Lakers With Gasol: 257-112 (.696)
Lakers Without Gasol: 35-26 (.574)

Gasol>Kobe :cheers:
:applause:

[kshutts1]

Some players that I think have a case for most underrated of all time --

Wilt. Hated on for his numbers, which are also his best argument. Went up against a superior team for the entirety of his career. But Wilt the individual player? Not enough people consider him the best ever.

Oscar. Why is he rated out of the top 10 by so many?

KG. Duncan/KG is a semi-parallel of Russell/Wilt. Two incredibly talented players, where team circumstance is the most cited circumstance rating one (Russell/Duncan) ahead of the other. Wilt/Russell are at least close in most overall rankings. But Duncan is so far ahead of KG that either Duncan is vastly overrated (but who to put above him?) or KG is criminally underrated.

KG gets my vote for most underrated of all time. But the other two are also so overlooked (at times) that it's comical.

[Legends66NBA7]

Some players that I think have a case for most underrated of all time --

Wilt. Hated on for his numbers, which are also his best argument. Went up against a superior team for the entirety of his career. But Wilt the individual player? Not enough people consider him the best ever.

Oscar. Why is he rated out of the top 10 by so many?

KG. Duncan/KG is a semi-parallel of Russell/Wilt. Two incredibly talented players, where team circumstance is the most cited circumstance rating one (Russell/Duncan) ahead of the other. Wilt/Russell are at least close in most overall rankings. But Duncan is so far ahead of KG that either Duncan is vastly overrated (but who to put above him?) or KG is criminally underrated.

KG gets my vote for most underrated of all time. But the other two are also so overlooked (at times) that it's comical.

Along with Gasol, I honestly don't think any of these guys are underrated.

[longtime lurker]

Some players that I think have a case for most underrated of all time --

Wilt. Hated on for his numbers, which are also his best argument. Went up against a superior team for the entirety of his career. But Wilt the individual player? Not enough people consider him the best ever.

Oscar. Why is he rated out of the top 10 by so many?

KG. Duncan/KG is a semi-parallel of Russell/Wilt. Two incredibly talented players, where team circumstance is the most cited circumstance rating one (Russell/Duncan) ahead of the other. Wilt/Russell are at least close in most overall rankings. But Duncan is so far ahead of KG that either Duncan is vastly overrated (but who to put above him?) or KG is criminally underrated.

KG gets my vote for most underrated of all time. But the other two are also so overlooked (at times) that it's comical.

Wilt gets so much hate that he's becoming underrated. Oscar and KG seem to be rated fine right where they are.

[longtime lurker]

Lakers With Kobe: 308-147 (.677)
Lakers Without Kobe: 14-7 (.667)

Lakers With Gasol: 257-112 (.696)
Lakers Without Gasol: 35-26 (.574)

Gasol>Kobe :cheers:

Gasol without Kobe 0-16 in the playoffs.

[Vienceslav]

Barkley,KG,Oscar...
Plenty of candidates, Gasol gets more than enough credit on this forum.

[Legends66NBA7]

Wilt gets so much hate that he's becoming underrated. Oscar and KG seem to be rated fine right where they are.

Nah, being hated on doesn't make you underrated. Good and bad news today for a player who is retired (and sadly is also passed away) on ISH is actually making you a relevant topic. Look at CavsFTW work on rare footage and projects on Wilt. jlauber/LAZERUSS well detailed knowledge about Wilt from time to time. jongib369 brings up Wilt quite a lot here too. Psileas when he posts always brings good info and clever wit. Kblaze defends Wilt from the hate here and there.

Infact, Wilt is the most talked about non-retired player outside of Michael Jordan. Despite all the hate, he gets GOAT consideration. So I just can't see how he's underrated.

Guys like Dave Cowens, Rick Barry, Bob Dandridge, Hal Greer, etc... just a few examples to me are underrated.

[kshutts1]

Along with Gasol, I honestly don't think any of these guys are underrated.

I already mentioned why in my post, so we probably just view each player differently... but:

Wilt should be a top 3 GOAT candidate in all lists. He's not even top 5 on some lists. The actual ranking difference of 2 spots or so is not as large as "top 3" vs "not top 5". That's just a huge discredit to the player that Wilt was.

Oscar, if stories are to be believed (and they're all I have to go on) was once considered the GOAT. For some reason unknown to me, the league can't stand him and tries to keep him from being mentioned in many/any ways. For 99% of the fans, the media portrayals play a HUGE role in all time rankings. Oscar takes the largest "media hit" to his ranking of any player, probably ever. (Kobe/Jordan/Magic are helped the most).

KG is an equivalent player to Duncan. Why is one ranked in the top 10 every time, and the other is 12-15 on most lists, some even further back? Huge discrepancy is not accounted for in on-court production and abilities.

[Electric Slide]

Gasol without Kobe 0-16 in the playoffs.
Kobe without dominant big man = 0 playoff series wins.

0 wins in the playoffs and 0 playoff series wins is worth the same thing.

[Magic 32]

Kobe without dominant big man = 0 playoff series wins.

0 wins in the playoffs and 0 playoff series wins is worth the same thing.

one rebound from winning a first round matchup as the 7th seed.

But hey, we can't all be knowledgeable or fair.

I wonder, at what level are you enjoying your time on ISH?

It can't be intellectual or basketball related.

[Electric Slide]

one rebound from winning a first round matchup as a 7th seed.

But hey, we can't all be knowledgeable or fair.
But he lost.

What's your point?

Gasol = 2010 Finals MVP and best player on that championship Lakers team.

[Magic 32]

But he lost.

What's your point?

Gasol = 2010 Finals MVP and best player on that championship Lakers team.

Do you need a game by game breakdown?

[Electric Slide]

Do you need a game by game breakdown?
Gasol dominated the glass an the Lakers won the series because of it. He was also scoring well, shut down KG, and efficient.

He was also the best player in that Game 7 too.

[daily]

Do you need a game by game breakdown?
He needs a lot more than that. :lol

[secund2nun]

Mr. 7th seed Kobe "Beaned in the first round" Bryant

:applause:

[longtime lurker]

Kobe without dominant big man = 0 playoff series wins.

0 wins in the playoffs and 0 playoff series wins is worth the same thing.

Last time I checked 4 was > than 0. I'd ask you to do basic math but you might put yourself into a coma. Thanks for staying on topic.

[Electric Slide]

Last time I checked 4 was > than 0. I'd ask you to do basic math but you might put yourself into a coma. Thanks for staying on topic.
Yet both never got past the 1st round.

What's your point? You don't get brownie points for winning a few games but then losing the series. :oldlol:

[longtime lurker]

Yet both never got past the 1st round.

What's your point? You don't get brownie points for winning a few games but then losing the series. :oldlol:

4>0 :oldlol: Gasol couldn't even get 1 win playing beside a dominant big man in Dwight.

[Electric Slide]

4>0 :oldlol: Gasol couldn't even get 1 win playing beside a dominant big man in Dwight.
Cool.

And how many times has Kobe gotten past the 1st round? The only thing Kobe does is ride bigs to titles and steal their Finals MVPs like he did in 2010.

[longtime lurker]

Cool.

And how many times has Kobe gotten past the 1st round? The only thing Kobe does is ride bigs to titles and steal their Finals MVPs like he did in 2010.

Let's stay on topic. Prove to me that Gasol has done better without Kobe. Oh that's right you can't :lol

[Magic 32]

Gasol dominated the glass an the Lakers won the series because of it. He was also scoring well, shut down KG, and efficient.

He was also the best player in that Game 7 too.

Gasol was dominated on the glass in all three road games, couldn't shut down Perkins or Big Baby in critical moments, was outperformed in every game except game 2 (lost), shot below 43% in the last 3 games of the series, and stayed on the floor to pad his stats in both game 1 and 6.

And the game 7 MVP was Ron's.

[Electric Slide]

Gasol was dominated on the glass in all three road games, couldn't shut down Perkins or Big Baby in critical moments, was outperformed in every game except game 2 (lost), shot below 43% in the last 3 games of the series, and stayed on the floor to pad his stats in both game 1 and 6.

And the game 7 MVP was Ron's.
further proof that he was the Finals MVP since when he played well, they won. The catalyst, he was the leader, the best player, and the real Finals MVP.

[Magic 32]

further proof that he was the Finals MVP since when he played well, they won. The catalyst, he was the leader, the best player, and the real Finals MVP.

No, it showed that Kobe show up for all but one of the games and you need 2 to win.

Lakers won game 1

Kobe was the MVP

Lakers won Game 3

Kobe was the MVP

Lakers won Game 6

Kobe was the co-MVP with Pau

Lakers won Game 7

Ron was the MVP

[Electric Slide]

Lakers won game 1

Kobe was the MVP

Lakers won Game 3

Kobe was the MVP

Lakers won Game 6

Kobe was the co-MVP with Pau

Lakers won Game 7

Ron was the MVP
False, but keep making things up. Gasol was the MVP in all of the wins due to his rebounding and efficient scoring.

[Electric Slide]

Finalz VS Boston.

Turnovers.
Kobe : 28
Gasol : 13

G1.
Gasol : 23 / 14 (8 0ffensive) / 3 / 3BPG | 57% shooting
Kobe : 30 / 7 / 6 | 45% shooting
G1 = Gasol > Kobe

G2.
Gasol : 25 / 8 / 3 / 6BPG | 70% shooting
Kobe : 21 / 5 / 6 | 40% shooting
G2 = Gasol > Kobe

G3.
Gasol : 13 / 10 / 4 / 2BPG | 46% shooting
Kobe : 29 / 7 / 4 | 34% shooting
G3 = Kobe > Gasol

G4.
Gasol : 21 / 6 / 3 / 2BPG | 46% shooting
Kobe : 33 / 6 / 2 | 45% shooting
G4 = Wash / Equal / Draw

G5.
Gasol : 12 / 12 (7 0ffensive) | 42% shooting
Kobe : 38 / 5 / 4 | 48% shooting
G5 = Kobe > Gasol

G6.
Gasol : 17 / 13 (5 0ffensive) / 9 / 3BPG | 44% shooting
Kobe : 26 / 11 / 3 | 47% shooting
G6 = Gasol > Kobe

G7.
Gasol : 19 / 18 (9 offensive) / 4 / 2BPG | 38% shooting
Kobe : 23 / 15 / 2 | 25% shooting
G7 = Gasol > Kobe

Finalz Summary.
7 Games.
Gasol better in 4/7 Games
Kobe better in 2/7 Games
Gasol > Kobe in Finalz.

[Magic 32]

False, but keep making things up. Gasol was the MVP in all of the wins due to his rebounding and efficient scoring.

Pau's FG% in the last 5 games of the series...

.455
.462
.417
.429
.375

For a big, that is atrocious.

Pau averaged 3.7 more rebound than Kobe in the 4 wins, Kobe averaged 9 more points.

[Magic 32]

G1.
Gasol : 23 / 14 (8 0ffensive) / 3 / 3BPG | 57% shooting
Kobe : 30 / 7 / 6 | 45% shooting
G1 = Gasol > Kobe

G6.
Gasol : 17 / 13 (5 0ffensive) / 9 / 3BPG | 44% shooting
Kobe : 26 / 11 / 3 / 4 stl loser | 47% shooting
G6 = Gasol > Kobe


Both statpadding games from Pau.

What were their numbers when the lead reached 20+

I know, and you don't want to know.



G4.
Gasol : 21 / 6 / 3 / 2BPG | 46% shooting
Kobe : 33 / 6 / 2 | 45% shooting
G4 = Wash / Equal / Draw


http://data.whicdn.com/images/35626666/Yuri-laughing-GIF_large.gif




Finalz Summary.
7 Games.
Gasol better in 2/7 Games
Kobe better in 4/7 Games
Kobe > Kobe in Finalz.[/QUOTE]

[Electric Slide]

Gasol doesn't stat-pad, Kobe does.

Everyone other than Kobe fans know Gasol was the real finals mvp.

[longtime lurker]

Finalz VS Boston.

Turnovers.
Kobe : 28
Gasol : 13

G1.
Gasol : 23 / 14 (8 0ffensive) / 3 / 3BPG | 57% shooting
Kobe : 30 / 7 / 6 | 45% shooting
G1 = Gasol > Kobe

G2.
Gasol : 25 / 8 / 3 / 6BPG | 70% shooting
Kobe : 21 / 5 / 6 | 40% shooting
G2 = Gasol > Kobe

G3.
Gasol : 13 / 10 / 4 / 2BPG | 46% shooting
Kobe : 29 / 7 / 4 | 34% shooting
G3 = Kobe > Gasol

G4.
Gasol : 21 / 6 / 3 / 2BPG | 46% shooting
Kobe : 33 / 6 / 2 | 45% shooting
G4 = Wash / Equal / Draw

G5.
Gasol : 12 / 12 (7 0ffensive) | 42% shooting
Kobe : 38 / 5 / 4 | 48% shooting
G5 = Kobe > Gasol

G6.
Gasol : 17 / 13 (5 0ffensive) / 9 / 3BPG | 44% shooting
Kobe : 26 / 11 / 3 | 47% shooting
G6 = Gasol > Kobe

G7.
Gasol : 19 / 18 (9 offensive) / 4 / 2BPG | 38% shooting
Kobe : 23 / 15 / 2 | 25% shooting
G7 = Gasol > Kobe

Finalz Summary.
7 Games.
Gasol better in 4/7 Games
Kobe better in 2/7 Games
Gasol > Kobe in Finalz.

Is this poster genghiskhan or another phakkit like him? I've seen this exact breakdown and same conclusions before.

[Deuce Bigalow]

G4.
Gasol : 21 / 6 / 3 / 2BPG | 46% shooting
Kobe : 33 / 6 / 2 | 45% shooting
G4 = Wash / Equal / Draw
Seems legit

[SamuraiSWISH]

IMO, Isiah Thomas.

Slept on because of his alienating attitude, and knuckle head antics during his career on and off the court.

[Magic 32]

Gasol doesn't stat-pad, Kobe does.

Everyone other than Kobe fans know Gasol was the real finals mvp.

Game 1

End of the 3rd qtr.

20+ lead

Kobe: 26 pts, 5 reb, 4 ast
Pau : 18 pts, 10 reb, 1 ast

Pau plays 8 min. more than Kobe.

So, even now...

Kobe MVP

G1
G3
G4
G5

[Electric Slide]

Game 1

End of the 3rd qtr.

20+ lead

Kobe: 26 pts, 5 reb, 4 ast
Pau : 18 pts, 10 reb, 1 ast
link?

[Electric Slide]

gasol was still better anyways, more efficient, better D, better rebounding, no care.

[Magic 32]

link?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/201006030LAL.html

[Magic 32]

Ok, now

Game 6

Lakers have a 20+ lead by halftime.

Kobe: 16 pts, 7 reb, 2 ast.
Pau : 8 pts, 8 reb, 5 ast.

So again.

Kobe MVP

G1
G3
G4
G5
G7

MWP

G7

Pau

G2

[Electric Slide]

Ok, now

Game 6

Lakers have a 20+ lead by halftime.

Kobe: 16 pts, 7 reb, 2 ast.
Pau : 8 pts, 8 reb, 5 ast.
gasol

getting his teammates involved, more efficient, better defensively.

[Magic 32]

gasol

getting his teammates involved, more efficient, better defensively.

Are you crying right now?

Your post feels moisty.

[Magic 32]

gasol

getting his teammates involved

Offense ran through Kobe.



more efficient,


Barely (which is shocking for a big)



better defensively.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4030/4689413913_8f8d16b9c1_o.gif

[GoSpursGo1984]

I think it's unbelievable how disrespected and underrated this guy is. He gets all the blame even though he doesn't even do anything wrong most of the time. His ability to dominate the glass and score in the post with his skill is remarkable.

We're also talking about a guy that led his team to a championship in 2010 and should have been the Finals MVP but was robbed of it.

He is a top 50 player of all-time and probably the most underrated player of all-time.

http://i.imgur.com/RuYH0.gif