Who played harder than Allen Iverson? Ever?

[Kblaze8855]

He has become the antichrist for a new generation of "efficiency" lovers. But lets sit that aside for now please.

If you watched the guy I watched...you have to respect one thing at least.

The desire.

It is a very short list of people you can name in comparison to AI on this issue.

They exist. Im not gonna disregard Bird or...any number of others no doubt about to be mentioned.

But watch a few clips for me....not even the best of him at all. Just a few random examples of what I mean.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLZhdPXeHQc


^
Normal play for him. Not a highlight at all. But how many people...ever....get to that ball first and score it? He goes from zero to 100 in half a second. Hes got 2 Knicks ahead of him and hes off before any other nugget is even turned around.


Another game that isnt really of note. Not even highlights. But....a lot of those plays are just off wanting it the most. The swarming defense?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-rtvkOO0Ak

Talk about swarming defense....

Look at the play at 1:50:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKoNwyG6ETA

If you dont like that...you dont like basketball.

Im gonna spare you the essay on heart and how underrated hes become because of stat watchers.....ill just say....we need more Allen Iversons not less.

And I assume the 3-4 Rose haters we employ will be along shortly to inject discussion of him where it doesnt belong.

[Rasheed1]

Nobody... Some players come close (Rodman, Westbrook) but none surpassed him in terms of pure effort during games.


He would have lasted longer if he would have transitioned into a play maker late in his career, but he was too stubborn to do so..

but I miss the AI days..

[Bano114]

Agreed. I will always remember Iverson as an absolute threat on the floor. Everyone feared him, no matter who he was playing.

Do you think head coaches were saying...

"Back off on Iverson, hes so inefficient if he's the one with the ball we have nothing to worry about."

Absolutely not.

:oldlol: All these amazing plays, always against the Knicks. I remember those days too, it was a struggle to watch.

[Budadiiii]

Russell Westbrook plays hard on both ends, every single game. We all know he hadn't missed game in his whole life until his recent injury.

He's also dedicated to the franchise and would never skip out on practice and create an embarrassing scene like AI did.

AI was a lazy and insecure idiot. He played hard in games because people were watching, he was always trying to impress people.

What Russ does is much more respectable. The most dedicated athlete in history. No one puts in more effort to their franchise than Russ. No one in history.

[B-Low]

I can say with 100% certainty, I've never seen an athlete compete as hard as Allen Iverson. Say what you will about his shot volume, lack of rings etc...but when you hear the cliche "leave it all on the court", Iverson was the personification of that phrase.

[Electric Slide]

Joakim Noah
Lebron James
Kevin Garnett

[BoutPractice]

I'll be entirely honest here. The biggest problem I have with Iverson is that he gave thousands of shitty, diminutive streetballers all over the globe unwarranted confidence to hog the ball, shoot contested jumpers and gamble like crazy on defense all game long. Guys who believed Yao Ming wouldn't deserve the ball from them because they could dribble between the legs. Allen Iverson was a great player but a horrible influence on the game, because he did stuff only he could get away with.

But some of the things he did on the court were unbelievable. You had to respect him and his passion for the game. At his best, he was incredibly entertaining to watch.

[B-Low]

Joakim Noah
Lebron James
Kevin Garnett

Not quite
Hell No
I'd say 2nd or 3rd all time in playing with heart/intensity

[9erempiree]

Russell Westbrook plays hard on both ends, every single game. We all know he hadn't missed game in his whole life until his recent injury.

He's also dedicated to the franchise and would never skip out on practice and create an embarrassing scene like AI did.

AI was a lazy and insecure idiot. He played hard in games because people were watching, he was always trying to impress people.

What Russ does is much more respectable. The most dedicated athlete in history. No one puts in more effort to their franchise than Russ. No one in history.

WTF does Russ have to do with this?

[kNicKz]

Good post. Iverson is one of my favorites

[PHILA]

Also this play in the Finals, which should have been a foul.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdU-amDQTrE&t=8m27s

[Electric Slide]

Not quite
Hell No
I'd say 2nd or 3rd all time in playing with heart/intensity
Why would you say no to any of them? All of these guys like Iverson play every game like it's their last and unlike Iverson, those guys had dedication off the court.

Practice?

[The Macho Man]

Andray Blatche

[Fudge]

LeBron James :roll:

[JimmyMcAdocious]

How do you define play hard? Iverson no doubt left it all on the floor, but so did many other NBA players. Who much of his "heart" was magnified by the fact that he was an elite scorer, face of a franchise/NBA, and that he was maybe 6 foot tall? If someone plays with the exact same passion and intensity of Iverson, except he's a role player and 6-8 PF, I bet everyone would say Iverson and it's not close. Even though it wouldn't be true.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Stockton. I've never seen that guy take a play off.

[Nezty]

Russell Westbrook plays hard on both ends, every single game. We all know he hadn't missed game in his whole life until his recent injury.

He's also dedicated to the franchise and would never skip out on practice and create an embarrassing scene like AI did.

AI was a lazy and insecure idiot. He played hard in games because people were watching, he was always trying to impress people.

What Russ does is much more respectable. The most dedicated athlete in history. No one puts in more effort to their franchise than Russ. No one in history.


:biggums:

[Budadiiii]

How do you define play hard? Iverson no doubt left it all on the floor, but so did many other NBA players. Who much of his "heart" was magnified by the fact that he was an elite scorer, face of a franchise/NBA, and that he was maybe 6 foot tall? If someone plays with the exact same passion and intensity of Iverson, except he's a role player and 6-8 PF, I bet everyone would say Iverson and it's not close. Even though it wouldn't be true.
Good point. Nate Robinson plays just as "hard" as Iverson did.

[Electric Slide]

How do you define play hard? Iverson no doubt left it all on the floor, but so did many other NBA players. Who much of his "heart" was magnified by the fact that he was an elite scorer, face of a franchise/NBA, and that he was maybe 6 foot tall? If someone plays with the exact same passion and intensity of Iverson, except he's a role player and 6-8 PF, I bet everyone would say Iverson and it's not close. Even though it wouldn't be true.
If you take out role player and change it to star, that's what Lebron James is.

[WayOfWade]

I used to rag on A.I. a bit, but I've been turning into a fan recently for some reason, maybe I'm just finally beginning to appreciate him.

[SCdac]

Amazing player. Glad I got to watch him live at the AT&T center and Alamodome a few times.

[Marchesk]

Are we talking about practice?

One of the GOAT player rants ever. Love it when players have enough and are finally honest. Hate all that BS they have usually have to shovel in interviews.

Of course the moment a player is actually honest with how they think, they get crucified. So no wonder they usually opt for boring.

[CelticPride13]

He had unreal stamina and endurance. You'd think he'd be exhausted seeing him run all over the court but he never looked tired.

[Owl]

How do you define play hard? Iverson no doubt left it all on the floor, but so did many other NBA players. Who much of his "heart" was magnified by the fact that he was an elite scorer, face of a franchise/NBA, and that he was maybe 6 foot tall? If someone plays with the exact same passion and intensity of Iverson, except he's a role player and 6-8 PF, I bet everyone would say Iverson and it's not close. Even though it wouldn't be true.
There's certainly some validity to this.

Iverson certainly played in a courageous, no fear style.

That said
1) In the first vid it just showed the types of gambles Iverson took. And how many other players could have made that play? Well as many as were as fast as Iverson (again about being athletic as much as workrate)? How many would? Maybe few. But they'd probably play more consistent D. It's flashy hustle much like Rodman provided (diving after balls that could have been collected/kept inbounds without diving).

2) Hard work comes on and off the court. I think his "practice" comment got too much hype. But a public suggestion that practice is unimportant was, well, unwise, and even if it was a failure to articulate what he really meant (it seems he just didn't want to talk about practice, didn't think it was an issue and then dug himself a hole and gave the media a story) that sort of this in terms of professionalism off court has to be taken into account. And really we don't know who works hard off court. There are some stories about Karl Malone's workout habits that suggest he was pretty strong in this area, but for the most part we really don't know.

Anyway in terms of less heralded players who played all out I'd say a Ty Corbin or Grant Long. Bo Outlaw maybe. TBH most players are working hard most of the time.

[CanYouDigIt]

I play hard on my kiddy balls when I play basketball

[lefthook00]

You have to understand, Iverson was taking it to GIANTS night after night. Dude is like 5'11" 160lbs. One of the most savage players in NBA history.

[PHILA]

Also Charles Barkley under the boards. Look at his great work on the offensive glass below. In the first video, he gets the offensive board and hustles back into rebounding position before the shot goes up. In the 2nd video, it is off the inbound pass.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2PJ8j14MFA&t=58s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_a-aDdeYbQ&t=4m33s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RVZoGaMVm8&t=5m3s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yZhYqt1J7c&t=6m33s


Again he muscles Horace Grant under the basket.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2PJ8j14MFA&t=9m45s

[PJR]

I never saw Alonzo Mourning take a play off a day in his life.

[IGOTGAME]

How do you define play hard? Iverson no doubt left it all on the floor, but so did many other NBA players. Who much of his "heart" was magnified by the fact that he was an elite scorer, face of a franchise/NBA, and that he was maybe 6 foot tall? If someone plays with the exact same passion and intensity of Iverson, except he's a role player and 6-8 PF, I bet everyone would say Iverson and it's not close. Even though it wouldn't be true.
There have been players like that. See AC Green. I don't think I'd say it wasn't close.

[Rasheed1]

I think his "practice" comment got too much hype. But a public suggestion that practice is unimportant was, well, unwise, and even if it was a failure to articulate what he really meant (it seems he just didn't want to talk about practice, didn't think it was an issue and then dug himself a hole and gave the media a story) that sort of this in terms of professionalism off court has to be taken into account.


IIRC the 76ers had just gotten knocked out of the playoffs and the first question they asked him was about his practice habits (because Larry Brown had just thrown Allen under the bus again during the coaches press conference)

He was p*ssed that they didnt ask him about the game that they just lost...

But even when the context is considered, it still showed that he didnt take practice as serious as he should since he was the leader and the best player on the team..

So I understand how it was blown out of proportion, but it still gave insight to his view on the importance of practice, and he didnt take it serious enough..

LB threw him under the bus there though...

[Ai2death]

Wasn't the practice he missed on Thanks Giving as well? Dude just wanted to be with his family.

Also people who are comparing Lebrons heart to iversons? Are you trolling or serious?
Iverson would never go missing, especially in crunch time. Lebron is a great player, but he has no heart.
Imagine in iverson was blessed with a 6'8 frame :applause:

[Bigsmoke]

He has become the antichrist for a new generation of "efficiency" lovers. But lets sit that aside for now please.

If you watched the guy I watched...you have to respect one thing at least.

The desire.

It is a very short list of people you can name in comparison to AI on this issue.

They exist. Im not gonna disregard Bird or...any number of others no doubt about to be mentioned.

But watch a few clips for me....not even the best of him at all. Just a few random examples of what I mean.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLZhdPXeHQc


^
Normal play for him. Not a highlight at all. But how many people...ever....get to that ball first and score it? He goes from zero to 100 in half a second. Hes got 2 Knicks ahead of him and hes off before any other nugget is even turned around.


Another game that isnt really of note. Not even highlights. But....a lot of those plays are just off wanting it the most. The swarming defense?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-rtvkOO0Ak

Talk about swarming defense....

Look at the play at 1:50:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKoNwyG6ETA

If you dont like that...you dont like basketball.

Im gonna spare you the essay on heart and how underrated hes become because of stat watchers.....ill just say....we need more Allen Iversons not less.

And I assume the 3-4 Rose haters we employ will be along shortly to inject discussion of him where it doesnt belong.

Iverson be hustling backwards at times :roll:

[KG215]

Russell Westbrook plays hard on both ends, every single game. We all know he hadn't missed game in his whole life until his recent injury.

He's also dedicated to the franchise and would never skip out on practice and create an embarrassing scene like AI did.

AI was a lazy and insecure idiot. He played hard in games because people were watching, he was always trying to impress people.

What Russ does is much more respectable. The most dedicated athlete in history. No one puts in more effort to their franchise than Russ. No one in history.
I wish you'd go back to not posting, because you're a f***ng moron. When Westbrook plays hard all game, it's because of his heart and passion. But for Iverson, he was just doing it because people were watching?

You can't be serious? It's more than just you being a fan. You're an obsessive lunatic when it comes to Westbrook.

[tmacattack33]

Russell Westbrook plays hard on both ends, every single game. We all know he hadn't missed game in his whole life until his recent injury.

He's also dedicated to the franchise and would never skip out on practice and create an embarrassing scene like AI did.

AI was a lazy and insecure idiot. He played hard in games because people were watching, he was always trying to impress people.

What Russ does is much more respectable. The most dedicated athlete in history. No one puts in more effort to their franchise than Russ. No one in history.

LOL. Not many people watched random regular season Sixers - Nets or Sixers - Celtics games in the late 90's.

And even if he did play at 110% in each regular season games just because people were watching, then he still deserves props because that is a whole lot of games and minutes played.

[Budadiiii]

I wish you'd go back to not posting, because you're a f***ng moron. When Westbrook plays hard all game, it's because of his heart and passion. But for Iverson, he was just doing it because people were watching?

You can't be serious? It's more than just you being a fan. You're an obsessive lunatic when it comes to Westbrook.
You're subconsciously trying to impress people as well. You want to be considered an unbiased respected fan.

You're basically using me to prop yourself up so you can become an even more respected poster.

Gain knowledge about the NBA and it's players and try to organize your posts in a fashion that garners intelligent basketball discussion, not the crap and silliness your posts usually create.

Sorry if I'm coming off as harsh, just trying to clean this place up. Jeff counts on me and a couple of others to do the dirty work. I sacrifice being considered a "likeable or respectable" poster for the betterment of the site long term.

[KG215]

You're subconsciously trying to impress people as well. You want to be considered an unbiased respected fan.

You're basically using me to prop yourself up so you can become an even more respected poster.
No, you're just a dumbass who's posting unintelligent, uninformed things to prop-up your favorite player. We've got enough of that crap around here.


Sorry if I'm coming off as harsh, just trying to clean this place up. Jeff counts on me and a couple of others to do the dirty work. I sacrifice being considered a "likeable or respectable" poster for the betterment of the site long term.
:oldlol:

Delusional much? You're a troll. You post ridiculous things, like calling Westbrook the hardest working athlete ever, while saying Iverson only played hard because people were watching. I don't know what kind of "dirty work" that is, and nothing you post is "for the betterment of the site long term".

[BallsOut]

KG hands down

[red1]

Joakim Noah
Lebron James
Kevin Garnett
one of the dumbest posts I have ever seen on this board

[RRR3]

I think some of the guys I have seen who play the hardest are Russell Westbrook and JJ Barea.

[RRR3]

LeBron plays hard when he feels like it, which is most of the time, but isn't always, so not sure why he's being listed.

[ILLsmak]

nobody that was good, that's for sure.

I still dunno why people hate the dude.

I'm taking him on my team.

Edit: @ KG, it's not the same as a big, tho.

-Smak

[miller-time]

Ever? Probably Bird. The guy could barely walk towards the end and was still throwing himself around on the court.

[Electric Slide]

one of the dumbest posts I have ever seen on this board
Lebron doesn't take any possessions off.

I'm not sure why he wouldn't be listed on here.

[red1]

Lebron doesn't take any possessions off.

I'm not sure why he wouldn't be listed on here.
Rocketsgreatness, truly you are the retard to lead all retards. Lebron once took 6 games off in a row - in the nba finals nonetheless. That was a clinic on how to play disinterested, uninspired and passive basketball

[Electric Slide]

Rocketsgreatness, truly you are the retard to lead all retards. Lebron once took 6 games off in a row - in the nba finals nonetheless. That was a clinic on how to play disinterested, uninspired and passive basketball
So because he doesn't always look to score due to double and triple teams, that meant he wasn't playing hard? LMAO, you do realize you can play hard without taking every ****ing shot right? Dude was defending their best player, rebounding like a beast, making timely accurate passes that only he can make, and all sorts of shit.

[Lakers2877]

How does one quantify such a thing as effort?

[Fresh Kid]

Joakim Noah
Lebron James
Kevin Garnett
:coleman: wrong x3

[FreezingTsmoove]

So because he doesn't always look to score due to double and triple teams, that meant he wasn't playing hard? LMAO, you do realize you can play hard without taking every ****ing shot right?

You cant just stink it up in the finals like that and be labeled as a player who played harder than Iverson.

[Electric Slide]

You cant just stink it up in the finals like that and be labeled as a player who played harder than Iverson.
Allen Iverson sucked every night, so yes you can.

[Fresh Kid]

Allen Iverson sucked every night, so yes you can.
did u watched basketball when he was playing??

[Electric Slide]

did u watched basketball when he was playing??
I watched him shoot under 40% a night, so yes.

[red1]

So because he doesn't always look to score due to double and triple teams, that meant he wasn't playing hard? LMAO, you do realize you can play hard without taking every ****ing shot right? Dude was defending their best player, rebounding like a beast, making timely accurate passes that only he can make, and all sorts of shit.
Why do you even post? It is obvious that you don't know shit. Lebron plays hard but then again he is someone who has played passive before during crucial moments - game 5 2010 vs celtics, all of the 2011 finals, etc. Iverson would never in a million years play that garbage, heartless, bitchmade series that lebron made all of us watch two years ago

[FreezingTsmoove]

Allen Iverson sucked every night, so yes you can.

Lol leave it to a knicks fan to not understand the difference between regular seasons games and the freaking finals. Hope you respond back in 3-4 years when you finally realize the meaning of the playoffs

[Electric Slide]

Why do you even post? It is obvious that you don't know shit. Lebron plays hard but then again he is someone who has played passive before during crucial moments - game 5 2010 vs celtics, all of the 2011 finals, etc. Iverson would never in a million years play that garbage, heartless, bitchmade series that lebron made all of us watch two years ago
Passive and playing hard is not the same thing, *******.

[Electric Slide]

Lol leave it to a knicks fan to not understand the difference between regular seasons games and the freaking finals. Hope you respond back in 3-4 years when you finally realize the meaning of the playoffs
The finals, I remember, I remember Iverson shooting like shit then too.

[red1]

Passive and playing hard is not the same thing, *******.
:facepalm Stop. If you had a functioning brain you would notice that bron himself acknowledges that he didnt give it his all. Why do you think in all of his interviews nowadays he always references the fact that if he "lay(s) it all out on the line, I will be satisfied with the outcome win or lose." He only started saying this shit after his passive and effortless performance against the mavs. That right there is not iverson-level heart, AI played his ass off the only time he got the chance to play in the finals

[Electric Slide]

:facepalm Stop. If you had a functioning brain you would notice that bron himself acknowledges that he didnt give it his all. Why do you think in all of his interviews nowadays he always references the fact that if he "lay(s) it all out on the line, I will be satisfied with the outcome win or lose." He only started saying this shit after his passive and effortless performance against the mavs. That right there is not iverson level heart, AI played his ass off the only time he got the chance to play in the finals
Ok, so post-2011 Lebron played as hard as Iverson, if not harder.

Doesn't matter. Lebron's name is still in the ballot.

[Dwade305]

Alonzo Mourning comes to mind. Dude gave it his all every game, specially on D.

[Orlando Magic]

Darrell Armstrong...

Also. .. there's something to be said for tall hustle players...

You guys can believe what you want but it is straight up easier for little guys to play with a full force motor all of the time. The blood doesn't travel as far and it puts less overall stress on their heart and allows then to keep playing at a high level with more endurance for longer than most bigs.

[Ai2death]

Anyone who brings up Lebron as a guy who plays hard and has heart is a ******ger straight up.

[Droid101]

Russell Westbrook plays hard on both ends, every single game. We all know he hadn't missed game in his whole life until his recent injury.

He's also dedicated to the franchise and would never skip out on practice and create an embarrassing scene like AI did.

AI was a lazy and insecure idiot. He played hard in games because people were watching, he was always trying to impress people.

What Russ does is much more respectable. The most dedicated athlete in history. No one puts in more effort to their franchise than Russ. No one in history.
AI is better than Westbrook will ever be.

[intrinsic]

You have to understand, Iverson was taking it to GIANTS night after night. Dude is like 5'11" 160lbs. One of the most savage players in NBA history.

When people first said this to put what Iverson was doing in perspective, I shrugged it off. Then I went to college and played against some of the basketball team. Running into a guy that was just 6'4 200 was like hitting a damn tree.

[Pointguard]

KG definitely played both ends of the floor with flat out intensity and as much effort as any two different people on each end. Its amazing how fast people forget. I give AI a ton of Wow, on his insistence to consistently bring it without fear. Nobody took a pounding like him and nobody kept coming back like he was never hit the first time.

[bdreason]

You can never question AI's heart, that's for sure.

[Harison]

AI left it all on the floor, offensively. Defensively? He played passing lanes, what else he did?

There are/were plenty of players who played as hard as AI, and some of them more so - because they played both sides of the court. Among bigs Barkley reminds me of AI. Nonetheless none of them "gave 110% effort every play", neither AI nor Barkley. Because every play also assumes the defense.

[Lebron23]

Anyone who brings up Lebron as a guy who plays hard and has heart is a ******ger straight up.

What are you talking about???

Did you watch him in Cleveland? Even in Miami he's their most consistent player. The dude averaged 39/9/9/ in the conference finals while his 2nd scoring option disappeared.

[PHILA]

My number one choice for this thread (at least among the superstars) is Russell. Such an intense focus on the game will drain the player mentally as well as physically. Just look at him after winning his final championship as the heavy underdog.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lnu5vMfPtbw&t=33m51s




Sports Illustrated - May 10, 1999

Cousy says, "The level of intensity among the big guys is different. You put a bunch of huge guys, seminaked, out there before thousands of people, and you expect them to become killers. But it just isn't in their nature. Kareem [Abdul-Jabbar] probably had the best skills of all big men, and he played till he was 42. If he'd had Russ's instincts, it's hard to imagine how much better he'd have been. But he'd have burned out long before 42."

Some years Russell would be so exhausted after the playoffs that, as he describes it, "I'd literally be tired to my bones. I mean, for four, five weeks, my bones would hurt."




LIFE Magazine - Dec 1, 1961

http://i.imgur.com/JkGy1FQ.png

[Ai2death]

What are you talking about???

Did you watch him in Cleveland? Even in Miami he's their most consistent player. The dude averaged 39/9/9/ in the conference finals while his 2nd scoring option disappeared.

Quiet simple really. Lebron has admitted he had disappeared on various occasions. Plus his own fans were questioning his heart just last finals.

Iversons heart was never questioned. Also, you may have forgotten, but iverson played almost his whole career and certainly his whole prime with out a second option. He never made excuses and never questioned the management. He simply played his best and did what he could to help his team win.
Lebron... well history has proved otherwise, quitting on his team and disappearing all together.

[Lebron23]

Quiet simple really. Lebron has admitted he had disappeared on various occasions. Plus his own fans were questioning his heart just last finals.

Iversons heart was never questioned. Also, you may have forgotten, but iverson played almost his whole career and certainly his whole prime with out a second option. He never made excuses and never questioned the management. He simply played his best and did what he could to help his team win.
Lebron... well history has proved otherwise, quitting on his team and disappearing all together.


That's why LeBron is a 2x NBA Champion, 2x Finals MVP, and 4x NBA MVP. and next year he will have more Finals MVP than Bird, Hakeem, Chamberlain, Jabbar and Kobe.

[Crystallas]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8-R3bBmhqU

[Ai2death]

That's why LeBron is a 2x NBA Champion, 2x Finals MVP, and 4x NBA MVP. and next year he will have more Finals MVP than Bird, Hakeem, Chamberlain, Jabbar and Kobe.

Yes I know. I'm not disagreeing with you there. I'm simply stating lebron has not played consistently hard or with heart like iverson did. I'm not saying iverson is better by anymeans.

The thread title isn't 'who is better' its 'who played harder'
If lebron played as hard or with as much heart as iverson, I believe there's a good chance he would already have 4 x championships and 4 x finals mvp. Can't doubt lebrons regular season play though.

It doesn't matter what accolades lebron gains though, he can't change the past. Same with iverson, he can't undo his mistakes either. You just have to learn from them.

[LakersDaBEst]

AI doesn't even practice man. Fk this guy. His ego was way up there...

[Ai2death]

AI doesn't even practice man. Fk this guy. His ego was way up there...

:facepalm

Typical lakers fan

[LJJ]

The size helps him here. A small guy playing hard looks more intense than a guy with limbs and mass doing the same.

But yes, on offense Iverson was all hero ball all the time. To a fault.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Yeah, there's no question about how hard Iverson played. I remember a quote from Larry Brown along the lines of Iverson maybe not always going about it "the right way"(Brown's favorite expression) but that you couldn't question how much he wanted to win and how hard he played.

And I think that sums up Iverson pretty well. He may gamble for steals, but that also made things happen like some of the plays you see that KBlaze linked. You couldn't throw lazy passes to his size of the court, and you couldn't fall asleep walking the ball up. And he may take some contested shots early in the clock, but he'll also hit 4-5 in a row. And he'd just outlast other players much bigger while playing more minutes than anyone in the league. He'd keep coming whether it was running off screens or chasing down every lose ball.

The Larry Brown/Iverson dynamic is still one of the more interesting coach/star dynamics I can think of, but despite their clashes, the strong personalities of both and Brown's old school purist mentality, he did have a real respect for Iverson, and it's worth noting that both of Iverson's HOF coaches Larry Brown and John Thompson held Iverson in high regard.

It's important to remember that he wasn't just some knucklehead with a ton of talent who would dribble the ball all day and just go 1 and 1. In addition to Iverson's ability as a 1 on 1 player, it wasn't uncommon to see him come off curls, make back door cuts ect. during the Larry Brown days.

[Kblaze8855]

Thats one thing that always bugged me. The idea that AI needed to dominate the ball to score. You actually watch the games...he might be the leading off the ball scorer of the last 20 years not counting the shooters like Ray Allen. I bet he scored more off the ball than Reggie miller ever did. Reggie averaged like 6 made shots a game and probably 2 were transition layups off Mark Jackson in his prime. I bet Reggie made 3-4 shots a night off cuts and screens.


AI probably averaged 3-4 a half when he was playing with Coleman setting crazy(and illegal) baseline screens.

[Fresh Kid]

I watched him shoot under 40% a night, so yes.
and??:facepalm

[plowking]

Also Charles Barkley under the boards. Look at his great work on the offensive glass below. In the first video, he gets the offensive board and hustles back into rebounding position before the shot goes up. In the 2nd video, it is off the inbound pass.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2PJ8j14MFA&t=58s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_a-aDdeYbQ&t=4m33s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RVZoGaMVm8&t=5m3s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yZhYqt1J7c&t=6m33s


Again he muscles Horace Grant under the basket.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2PJ8j14MFA&t=9m45s

Go ahead and list every Philly franchise player ever. We all know you want to. :rolleyes:

[plowking]

As for the, who plays as hard as Iverson? How about a shout out to Mike Miller. Guy was playing through back problems and draining threes, then you had him the very next year diving on the floor for rebounds, playing without his shoe, and battling against way bigger guys on the boards just for the team.

Me and my friend watching the finals were commenting on it all series long. When someone was on the floor trying to get the ball... every time, it happened to be Mike Miller trying to win the ball back for his team. All while having more injuries than both rosters combined.

[branslowski]

Thats one thing that always bugged me. The idea that AI needed to dominate the ball to score. You actually watch the games...he might be the leading off the ball scorer of the last 20 years not counting the shooters like Ray Allen. I bet he scored more off the ball than Reggie miller ever did. Reggie averaged like 6 made shots a game and probably 2 were transition layups off Mark Jackson in his prime. I bet Reggie made 3-4 shots a night off cuts and screens.


AI probably averaged 3-4 a half when he was playing with Coleman setting crazy(and illegal) baseline screens.

Got any numbers on this? Because Iverson wasn't scoring off the ball at a clip like that bro. He had the ball in his hands all the time like LeBron and CP3 does. He did play the hardest out of anyone though. Iverson with the ball in his hands was something amazing to watch.

[branslowski]

As for the, who plays as hard as Iverson? How about a shout out to Mike Miller. Guy was playing through back problems and draining threes, then you had him the very next year diving on the floor for rebounds, playing without his shoe, and battling against way bigger guys on the boards just for the team.

Me and my friend watching the finals were commenting on it all series long. When someone was on the floor trying to get the ball... every time, it happened to be Mike Miller trying to win the ball back for his team. All while having more injuries than both rosters combined.

Mike Miller? A bench player who shoots open 3's all game plays harder than Iverson who was the vocal point of the Sixers and drove to the lane getting abused every night? Notsureifserious...

[greymatter]

Joakim Noah
Lebron James
Kevin Garnett

Absolutely not. He takes breaks off a lot of plays failing to hustle back in transition, especially when he doesn't get a call going to the rim. Happened a bunch of times in the Spurs' series.

[tpols]

Got any numbers on this? Because Iverson wasn't scoring off the ball at a clip like that bro. He had the ball in his hands all the time like LeBron and CP3 does. He did play the hardest out of anyone though. Iverson with the ball in his hands was something amazing to watch.
Not at all..

[AirFederer]

MJ, Pip, Rodman, that`s who.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Got any numbers on this? Because Iverson wasn't scoring off the ball at a clip like that bro. He had the ball in his hands all the time like LeBron and CP3 does. He did play the hardest out of anyone though. Iverson with the ball in his hands was something amazing to watch.

That's just not true, certainly not when talking about AI during the Larry Brown days. If you watch him in his prime when he was a 2 guard and then a guy like Chris Paul. there's no question Paul was more ball-dominant.

Iverson did have the ball more once he switched to PG around '04-'05, though.

[riseagainst]

Joakim Noah
Lebron James
Kevin Garnett

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[branslowski]

That's just not true, certainly not when talking about AI during the Larry Brown days. If you watch him in his prime when he was a 2 guard and then a guy like Chris Paul. there's no question Paul was more ball-dominant.

Iverson did have the ball more once he switched to PG around '04-'05, though.

What? What was you watching?

How do you look at "off the ball" scoring? I hope just because Eric Snow dribbled the ball past half court and gave it to Iverson to dribble and drive, that you don't count that as off the ball scoring.

Iverson led the league in usage % 4 straight years from 98' to 02' I believe. The 04' season you say he started handling the ball more doesn't even equate his highest usage % of 00'-01 and 01'-02'.

[tpols]

What? What was you watching?

How do you look at "off the ball" scoring? I hope just because Eric Snow dribbled the ball past half court and gave it to Iverson to dribble and drive, that you don't count that as off the ball scoring.

Iverson led the league in usage % 4 straight years from 98' to 02' I believe. The 04' season you say he started handling the ball more doesn't even equate his highest usage % of 00'-01 and 01'-02'.
Usage is just how many shots you take out of your team right?

So if LeBron and Ray Allen both averaged 20 shots a game they'd have the same usage rate.. It doesn't account for ball dominance at all

[branslowski]

Usage is just how many shots you take out of your team right?


No.

Usage percentage- "the estimate of the percentage of TEAM PLAYS used by a player while he was on the floor".

Its not just shots, its the amount of time and plays the player has the ball in his hands untill his teams possession ends.

Now this doesn't mean he wasn't shooting alot with the ball in his hands, because he was....Because he had the ball in his hands...

[Kblaze8855]

No it isnt. You dont even need to see a game to get usage rate. If I stand and dribble the ball for 21 seconds then pass to a guy who misses....usage rate counts nothing happening that play for me. Its just a combo of FGA, turnovers, assists, and I think free throws weighted a certian way. It doesnt tell you who had the ball.

[Owl]

What? What was you watching?

How do you look at "off the ball" scoring? I hope just because Eric Snow dribbled the ball past half court and gave it to Iverson to dribble and drive, that you don't count that as off the ball scoring.

Iverson led the league in usage % 4 straight years from 98' to 02' I believe. The 04' season you say he started handling the ball more doesn't even equate his highest usage % of 00'-01 and 01'-02'.
Not taking a side on this but ball dominance (as discussed here and as generally understood) is not the same as usage (as I think you understand by your first comments).

Ball dominance is about is about hanging onto the ball (typically for too long). Hence the suggestion above the that CP3 is more ball dominant than Iverson (albeit CP3 was much more likely to end the possession with a basket for himself or a teammate).

And no they aren't including iso moves after Snow takes it to halfcourt the explicitly stated contention in KBlazes post 78 on the previous page that the discussion as presently framed is about Iverson scoring off the ball and especially off picks.

It now seems to me you have been misinformed of or misinterpreted usage as it is conventionally calculated. Typically it is about the number of plays which you end (either by shooting, by shooting free throws or by turning the ball over http://www.nbastuffer.com/component/option,com_glossary/Itemid,0/catid,42/func,view/term,Usage%20Percentage/ ).

[Legends66NBA7]

Surprised Larry Bird hasn't been mentioned yet. He has to be up there.

[Kblaze8855]

Oh and first game that came to mind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypmr7jrqUaE

He made 17 field goals and 9 were straight up off the ball movement catch and shoot plays. And like 4 were on the break. But perception was he was a ball hog who had to dribble into all his shots.

Allen Iverson was a beast off the ball.

Even the games with only 5-6 off the ball scores like this 54 point game:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbFpYhFEhZA

Its just him being relentless on the break. Its mostly quick scores and transition pullup jumpers and drives.

AI wasnt a Steve Francis type dribbling 17 seconds to make a decision. Most good point guards had the ball more than he did. When he went full time point...he handled the ball a lot. As point guards tend to do.

But he was no doubt among the top off the ball scorers of all time.

You couldnt follow him through some of those gaps he would contort and slide through sideways and when he emerged he was ready to shoot every time.

He wore guys out trying to chase him around.

[ShaqAttack3234]

What? What was you watching?

How do you look at "off the ball" scoring? I hope just because Eric Snow dribbled the ball past half court and gave it to Iverson to dribble and drive, that you don't count that as off the ball scoring.

Iverson led the league in usage % 4 straight years from 98' to 02' I believe. The 04' season you say he started handling the ball more doesn't even equate his highest usage % of 00'-01 and 01'-02'.

As others have stated already, usage % only accounts for how many possessions you get a stat from whether it's a FGA, assist, TO ect. Not how long/much you dribble the ball or in general, ball-dominance.

I have to ask what you were watching because as I said earlier, it wasn't uncommon to see AI come off curls, backdoor cuts ect.

If you're trying to look at this from a numbers perspective, well you can't prove ball-dominance with stats, maybe synergy keeps track of how many dribbles you take on average, how long you hold the ball, I don't know, but as far as what we have access to, you have to watch the games for that.

But it's no coincidence that he wasn't even leading his team in assists for several years ranking second in '99 with 4.6, second in '00 with 4.7, third in '01 with 4.6 and second again in '02 and '03 with 5.5 apg each season. Then when he switches to PG in the '04-'05 season, he's at 7.9 apg and 7.4 the season after that.

Iverson was also assisted on 42.4% of his field goals in 2001, 42.3% in 2002 and 42.7% in 2003, but just 22.3% in 2005 and just 24% in 2006.

Those numbers should at least help paint a picture of Iverson becoming noticeably more ball-dominant when he switched to point guard, which you'd expect.

[Take Your Lumps]

Another game that isnt really of note. Not even highlights. But....a lot of those plays are just off wanting it the most. The swarming defense?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-rtvkOO0Ak

Dikembe still had it :rockon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=c-rtvkOO0Ak&t=139

[branslowski]

I wasn't saying Iverson never scored off the ball. I was merely responding to a post I saw that said "Iverson scores off the ball more than Reggie Miller or Ray Allen" and I just wanted to see the numbers on that.

I'm also not a boxscore junky like LeBron stans, I'd rather watch the games. All in all, don't get it twisted, Iverson is one of my Top 5 favorite players of All-Time. I watched atleast 80% of dudes games. Again, I've seen him run off the ball, and even score on catch and shoot, but not at a clip that would make him more effective off the ball than Reggie Miller.

All that said, Iverson was one of the greatest players to watch. I even remeber his first legit buzzer beater gamewinner vs the Pacers. Marc Zumoff (how ever you spell it) and the First Union Center was going bonkers:oldlol:

[Solid Snake]

Joakim
KG
Rodman
Ben Wallace
Steve Kerr
Jordan
Kobe
Magic
Bird