Why Wasn't Chris Webber greater?

[AngelEyes]

I don't mean to demean his career because I think he had a fantastic career and was a legitimate MVP candidate in the early 2000's. I also consider him to be a hall of famer. As great as he was it seems like he should have been better. I've seen few forwards who ever had his combination of skills and physical ability. The guy was 6'10" 245 and built... he could run the floor and finish on a break, he had a good mid range shot that could extend out to the three... he had a very solid low post game and he was one of the best passing forwards of his time and could overwhelm opposing forwards with his power and athleticism.

[Electric Slide]

Soft

[Psycho]

Some guys just have that burning desire to succeed. They go hard every second they play, and seethe every time they fail. Chris just wasn't one of those guys. Great player, still.

[Droid101]

Chris Webber would have dunked on LerBron so hard. Wish I could've seen it.

[ProfessorMurder]

It's his mind.

Whatever documentary it was, probably the Fab 5 30 for 30 mentioned how he always wanted to be seen as a hood kid even though his family life was decent.

So, his insecurity combined with the Timeout incident kept him from that upper level in my opinion.

He was still great though.

[MMKM]

CWebb was Mr Almost. Had the timeout at Michigan, came within inches of the Finals so often with the kings, you'd wonder how he would have been remembered if a few key moments went his way

[Johnny Jones]

http://i.imgur.com/u0gG1bA.jpg

[jdiaby]

The thing that plague Chris Webber is the thing that plague alot big men that are really skillful such as Derrick Coleman and Rasheed Wallace(excluding Duncan). They wanna prove they can do this and that instead of milking there bread and butter. Webber wanted to prove he could pass(top 10 passing big men), had handles, and shot the 15 footer( although to his credit he had a sweet J), instead working on his back to basket game, thats why I respect Shaq. Truthful Webber was athletic but only above average, he wasn't crazy athletic.

[Sarcastic]

CWebb proves that the game is not all about athleticism the way people make it out to be. He was 10x ahead Larry Bird athletically, yet there is no one on god's green earth that would put him ahead of Larry Legend.

[miles berg]

He should have been a legend.

I don't feel like he is a legend at all.

But the talent was legendary.

[TheBigVeto]

Great player and one of the best passers ever from forward position, but dude is a choker.

[Rasheed1]

Shaq... refs ...

[SpecialQue]

:confusedshrug:

[DCL]

some guys think they're better than they are. they get into this zone and play like they're in god mode, even if they aren't even that good. it's just the mentality of thinking that nothing can stop you.

webber, on the other spectrum, didn't have this kind of mojo. he probably thought he was weaker than people made him out to be. he felt pressure and was afraid to be the real man.

so he basically played like chicken shit in big games. he always needed someone like bibby to bail his ass out.

it's not like he tried to be the man and failed. but dude didn't even really try at all.

[AintNoSunshine]

LOL if not for the refs in 2002 he's a nba champion and fmvp

[DKLaker]

LOL if not for the refs in 2002 he's a nba champion and fmvp

Nah......Robert Horry!!!!!!!

[imdaman99]

injuries. he was hurt almost every year.

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

Shaq... refs ...

LOL if not for the refs in 2002 he's a nba champion and fmvp

Nah......Robert Horry!!!!!!!

injuries. he was hurt almost every year.
I wanna say it was these. But it was probably really...

Some guys just have that burning desire to succeed. They go hard every second they play, and seethe every time they fail. Chris just wasn't one of those guys.

It's his mind.

those.

In terms of pure talent alone, CWebb was probably a top 5 PF of all time. Goodness it was a treat watching him play when I was younger. There seriously wasn't anything he couldn't do on the court. He even drained 3's occasionally. But of course, nowadays "greatness" is measured in rings and rings alone (which is a damn shame). And he has none.

But yeah, he never really seemed genuinely angry at losing. I don't know what his priorities of motivations were, tbh. But a ring wasn't very high, I don't think. I think he was about simply playing for fun, money, and because he was good at it. He has a love for the game, but not the killer instinct to win at all costs. I don't even think fame was a motivation, tbh. I still remember when he was cussing out the Sacramento media for getting into his personal life w/ Tyra Banks.

edit:
Now that I really think of it, this is the best answer:

:confusedshrug:

[brain drain]

He was always rather mediocre to low efficiency for a big man, that's why.

People often overlook this, see the raw stats and afterwards wonder how "such a great player" couldn't quite make it in the playoffs. The answer is: things like great passing are only a means to an end, and while their great passing front court was wonderful to watch, it's definitely not a good thing if your two big men (Vlade and Webber) only have a TS% of between 43 and 55 in the playoffs.

That's a way too low conversion rate, especially considering the fact that the passing should've made the scoring EASIER - but somehow it didn't have that effect.

Compare that for example to the 2011 Mavs, where Dirk and Chandler that TS% of 61 and 63. Or the 2010-11 Lakers: Bynum 61% TS, Pau & Odom 59% each. See the difference?

The Sacto Kings essentially had to rely on a 3 point-shooter (Peja) and a backcourt player (Bobby Jackson) to be the high percentage guys. Of course that's not going to work all the way through the playoffs.

[brain drain]

In terms of pure talent alone, CWebb was probably a top 5 PF of all time.

No he wasn't. He was very versatile, but he was severely lacking at the most important skill: putting the ball in the basket at an efficient rate. Can't be top anything without that.

[iamgine]

^ that would be my answer as well.

Supposedly all that skills leads to good efficiency unless your teammates were bad so the opponent can double/triple team you. But Cwebb had good teammates so why couldn't he be more efficient?

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

No he wasn't. He was very versatile, but he was severely lacking at the most important skill: putting the ball in the basket at an efficient rate. Can't be top anything without that.
believe me, I value pure raw scoring ability and efficiency as much as anyone (see the "rank Kobe, Wade, McGrady, Dirk, KD" thread). I probably value it the most of anything when I pretend I'm a scout. But I also value pretty much everything to some extend.

CWebb's vision, passing, rebounding, midrange game (albeit streaky), handles, driving, athleticism, etc I believe put him in the top 5 PFs in what I specified as a pure talent basis. McHale, Pettit, KG, Rodman are probably better PFs in and of the position of a PF itself - they were better at the PF craft, yes. And I'd rank them higher in a PF listing.

But, as i said in regards to pure talent, I think CWebb surpasses them in the overall talent level - considering all aspects of the game. His skills were just that good and natural. The others in the Top 5 contention would of course be Duncan, Malone, Barkley, Elvin Hayes, and Nowitzki.

[lucky001]

Didn't have much of a post game. Good triple threat facilitator from the high post but not someone you could throw the ball to down low and get buckets or free throws.

Also, he wasn't a bad defender, but he could have been better given his physical gifts.

[magic chiongson]

injuries. he was hurt almost every year.

this, even during his first few years with GS & WAS he was often injured, could've taken some of the explosiveness by the time he joined the kings

[JohnnySic]

He was a monster coming into the league. Injuries robbed him of his freakish athleticism.

[SAKOTXA]

He was invisible in 4th quarters and didn't even look at the ball.

[Haymaker]

LOL if not for the refs in 2002 he's a nba champion and fmvp

This

[Xiao Yao You]

He was too unselfish.

[kshutts1]

believe me, I value pure raw scoring ability and efficiency as much as anyone (see the "rank Kobe, Wade, McGrady, Dirk, KD" thread). I probably value it the most of anything when I pretend I'm a scout. But I also value pretty much everything to some extend.

CWebb's vision, passing, rebounding, midrange game (albeit streaky), handles, driving, athleticism, etc I believe put him in the top 5 PFs in what I specified as a pure talent basis. McHale, Pettit, KG, Rodman are probably better PFs in and of the position of a PF itself - they were better at the PF craft, yes. And I'd rank them higher in a PF listing.

But, as i said in regards to pure talent, I think CWebb surpasses them in the overall talent level - considering all aspects of the game. His skills were just that good and natural. The others in the Top 5 contention would of course be Duncan, Malone, Barkley, Elvin Hayes, and Nowitzki.

I always considered KG to be one of the top 3 most skilled PFs ever. Do you consider him a C, or just forget him? Or do we view him that differently?

As for Webber, classic case of not living up to pigeon-holed expectations. If you want to be a great big, you need to score efficiently, block shots, and win titles. If you don't do those at an all-time level, particularly without a title, then you're tossed aside.

Taking away those (in my mind) silly expectations, and Webber IS great. He's similar to Barkley or Malone in that he was a dominant force that never won a title because of other factors (see: Shaq). Give Webber just one title and a lot of people would view him completely differently.

[lakeshow1]

Shaq... refs ...

He shrunk late in games. People can talk about refs all they want, but I watched those games against the Lakers and he simply went away late in games. The only Kings I thought were late-game ready were Bibby and Jackson.

[jzek]

He played against a greater player in the same era - prime Shaq.

Same reason as to why Ewing, Reggie, Barkley, etc. all weren't greater - they played against a greater player - Jordan

[ZHAKIDD532]

Best years coincided with Kobe/Shaq championship Lakers. Couldn't quite get by them.

[longtime lurker]

Because he was mentally soft. He still can't talk about that time out incident at Michigan to this day.

[Thorpesaurous]

If you piece him all together, he looks spectacular. The passing, the athleticism, the ability to run the floor and handle the ball. But he unfortunately never had it all working at the same time.

By all accounts, he definitely was a bit of a head case. He was a bit ahead of his time, because he's the first "high school guy" I remember hearing about. The guy who people knew about before he got to college even. He frankly didn't know how to deal with it. He definitely had some issues with the not being a "hood kid" aspect of his life, when so much of that culture gravitated toward him. And the timeout obviously haunted him for years. The early part of his career was obviously hamstrung by all that stuff. His Golden State team should've been good. His Bullets team should've been good. He just was still suffering from the media blitz he went through when he was a kid. His head was never in it. He was way to snippy with the media. And he was still being asked to face a franchise. Now-a-days, kids with his pedigree are dealing with media attention like that on purpose. Guys are creating logos for themselves as juniors in high school, but there really wasn't anyone paving the way for Webber. He was totally playing it by ear. He embraced the street culture that embraced him, then got called out as a phoney because he was much closer to the Duke kids that his friend Jalen Rose was so fond of ripping for their prep school upbringing than he was willing to admit. And when he called that timeout, and was filmed crying all the way back to the locker room, and was cussing out the media for their voyeristic need to see a kid cry, that was it. That title game was gonna be a big in your face to the media for outing him as not the hood kid he had presented himself as, and instead it blew up in his face, and his relationship with the media was contentios from then on.

After the smoke cleared, and other people came and soaked up the attention, and Webber had become and afterthought, and landed in Sacramento, where the media wasn't as interested in him for both of those reasons, he started to really flourish. Unfortunatealy, chronic cartallidge issues in his knee totally derailed him. I have similar issues, and was actually a candidate for the micro fracture surgery he had, but went in a different direction. So I have a little more sympathy for him. Unfortunately that's when his skill level started to show off. His passing was elite, and he was a plus shooter, but without the lift to finish inside, he did suffer. There's a little chicken and the egg issue with the fact that the Sac offense started with double high posts, but even then, the cutting off of him opened lanes he should of been able to exploit, and his body just didn't have the pop anymore. But in a small market you could see just how good he could've been had he been able to escape his anger issues sooner. And yeah he had the snap over the media Tyra Banks thing just to show it was still there, but generally he wasn't being pushed like he had been as The Man in GS or Washington.

One of the reasons I think he had those anger issues, which stemmed from both his own mistakes about not just being who he was in college, and from the media unfairly holding an 18 year old kid to the flames, was also a part of the reason he was so good ... he's a really smart guy. Smart might not even be the right word, thoughtfull might be more appropriate. He's spectacular as a member of the media now. He's great doing games or studio work. You can almost hear his head working. I like him better during games because he's not being drowned out by some nonsense Shaq is saying or doing, like in those NBA TV roundtable things. I don't think it was that he didn't care enough at all. If anything I think he cared too much, and he could never get out of his own head enough to just let his talent take over.

He should be a lock HOFer. His career, pro and college, is on the fringe. His kind of a mini Bill Walton, short burst, but great, just not quite as great as Walton with his multi college titles and NBA title and MVP. But that Fab Five team was a cultural Beacon for the sport, and it converged the whole hip hop thing that was really taking off at the time with the sport. They should absolutely be represented in the HOF, and he was undoubtedly their best player, even at the time. So to me he's gotta get in.

[NumberSix]

He gets a pass because of 2002.

[Rasheed1]

And the timeout obviously haunted him for years.

This is what Im thinking... He could never have a moment that overshadowed "the timeout" and he tried very hard to get beyond it, but he never could.

He also got caught in that scandal and lied to a grand jury, which took his Michigan career down another notch.

I think he was great player who, like Barkley & Pat Ewing, Reggie Miller couldnt quite overcome the dynasty that stood in his way.. No shame in that, but the mistakes he made mostly during his college career seemed to haunt him and he never could create a moment that made people forget those bad moments he had early on...

even today he still acts a bit weird when it comes to those subjects.. as if he hasnt totally put it behind him

[Thorpesaurous]

This is what Im thinking... He could never have a moment that overshadowed "the timeout" and he tried very hard to get beyond it, but he never could.

He also got caught in that scandal and lied to a grand jury, which took his Michigan career down another notch.

I think he was great player who, like Barkley & Pat Ewing, Reggie Miller couldnt quite overcome the dynasty that stood in his way.. No shame in that, but the mistakes he made mostly during his college career seemed to haunt him and he never could create a moment that made people forget those bad moments he had early on...

even today he still acts a bit weird when it comes to those subjects.. as if he hasnt totally put it behind him


Completely agree. And because of that it seems to have made him more sympathetic to players when he announces. He comes at things from more angles than most media guys, even most former player media guys.

The other guy who does great TV work, albeit almost exclusively college, is former Duke PG Jay Williams, who also seems to have gotten a fuller perspective on things after his career didn't go the way people expected, albeit for other reasons. Good piece on him on HBO's Real Sports this month.

[hateraid]

The true answer is that he was never drafted as the focal point of his team and never had the opportunity to have a team develop around him. He was thrown from team to team despite being the best player. Had he stayed with Golden State and had the team develop around him he may have had similar success to KG. Possibly better as I saw C-Webb as a better overall talent. His career didn't get going until he came to Sacremento. He was also overshadowed by Tim Duncan who was fortunate enough to be drafted by an elite team who managed to tank due to a David Robinson injury. Imagime if C-Webb had stayed with Orlando and Shaquille O'Neal? I don't think Orlando would have been beaten. C-Webb may go down as one of the top power forwards ever.

I also think the "timeout" reputation is a little inflated. The kid did everything right throughout his whole college career on the court yet gets judged by a brain fart.

[3peated]

mentally weak

[TheFan]

Injuries, but also...

The west was stacked(Lakers, Mavs,Spurs, etc), he made it to the east when it was too late, imagine the Billups/BWallace/Prince Pistons with prime Webber instead of Rasheed Wallace? or instead of Ben Wallace?

He made it to the Piston when his best years were behind him.

[Thorpesaurous]

The true answer is that he was never drafted as the focal point of his team and never had the opportunity to have a team develop around him. He was thrown from team to team despite being the best player. Had he stayed with Golden State and had the team develop around him he may have had similar success to KG. Possibly better as I saw C-Webb as a better overall talent. His career didn't get going until he came to Sacremento. He was also overshadowed by Tim Duncan who was fortunate enough to be drafted by an elite team who managed to tank due to a David Robinson injury. Imagime if C-Webb had stayed with Orlando and Shaquille O'Neal? I don't think Orlando would have been beaten. C-Webb may go down as one of the top power forwards ever.

I also think the "timeout" reputation is a little inflated. The kid did everything right throughout his whole college career on the court yet gets judged by a brain fart.


I agree about no team really taking their time with him. But I do wonder how much of that was on him. When a guy is that talented and still getting tossed around the league, you gotta start to wonder. And his relationship with the media in Washington was downright ugly. I'm not sure he gave the bullets the opportunity to be patient with him.

[DKLaker]

Best years coincided with Kobe/Shaq championship Lakers. Couldn't quite get by them.

Right!!! Can you imagine how great we would think he was if he had played on those Lakers teams, winning titles!!!

[get these NETS]

he actually had a good career

HE single handedly made the Kings a legit franchise and contender in his era

perhaps the most skilled power forward ever.....he was derrick coleman 2.0 skillwise

just wasn't a clutch player

I remember him missing point blank layup in playoff series against wolves in a big spot the same way duncan did against the heat....difference is that duncan is generally a money player...webber folds under pressure

win lose or draw...to be recognized as a legit alltime great...gotta have beast mode and beast clutch mode moments in the playoffs

great regular season player....actually as fundamentally sound and more skilled overall than duncan just not clutch



timeout in college? i will forever believe that he was being extorted blackmailed

if you watch the footage yourself.....he takes ball in the backcourt....WALKS.....pauses..looks at ref....doesn't get the whistle...and then drives INTO the corner..and calls timeout

webb has TOO high a hoops iq to have decided to bring the ball up the court...with jalen still in the game and then dribble the ball INTO the corner


the mob or somebody threatened him...and he blew the game

[hateraid]

Right!!! Can you imagine how great we would think he was if he had played on those Lakers teams, winning titles!!!

Do you realize he was drafted to play with Shaq in Orlando?
History would have changed. Shaq may have gone down as the greatest player ever

[get these NETS]

Do you realize he was drafted to play with Shaq in Orlando?
History would have changed. Shaq may have gone down as the greatest player ever


i think hill was the coach then......


unless you have very smart coach....it wouldn't have worked out


penny was the smarter move

were it not for ego clash....magic with dominant 5 and great combo guard were team of the future


cwebb had best success in sacto where he played with a 5 who was versatile ....he and vlade were as complementary 4 and 5 (reg season) as I can recall



shaq was one dimensional in orlando and webb would have reduced to a jump shooter

[longtime lurker]

Do you realize he was drafted to play with Shaq in Orlando?
History would have changed. Shaq may have gone down as the greatest player ever

I always wondered what could have happened. Webber and Shaq would be pretty unstoppable.

[hateraid]

I always wondered what could have happened. Webber and Shaq would be pretty unstoppable.

That combo rivals Shaq/Kobe and possibly better that Robinson/Duncan during that time period if Webber and Shaq played into that era. the whole outlook of the 90's would have been different.

[Thorpesaurous]

I always wondered what could have happened. Webber and Shaq would be pretty unstoppable.


My favorite what if about that draft was that at the top of the second round they landed Nick Van Excel, who I loved coming out of Cincy. I always wondered if they could've rescinded the trade for Hardaway after they found out Van Excel had fallen, and just kept those three.

I still think Shaq and Webb maybe would've gotten in each others way a little, but it would've been fun to see them try to figure it out. Webb eventually turned into a real high post player, maybe it just would've happened sooner.

[hateraid]

My favorite what if about that draft was that at the top of the second round they landed Nick Van Excel, who I loved coming out of Cincy. I always wondered if they could've rescinded the trade for Hardaway after they found out Van Excel had fallen, and just kept those three.

I still think Shaq and Webb maybe would've gotten in each others way a little, but it would've been fun to see them try to figure it out. Webb eventually turned into a real high post player, maybe it just would've happened sooner.

In an offensive scheme I think it could have worked. Grant was high post and was effective with Shaq. Webber would have done it much better AND could have been more productive on the glass which was an area for improvement outside of Shaq.

[longtime lurker]

In an offensive scheme I think it could have worked. Grant was high post and was effective with Shaq. Webber would have done it much better AND could have been more productive on the glass which was an area for improvement outside of Shaq.

This. Webbber was that high post player, liked to take the jump shot, but could also face up and drive too. I like the Robinson Duncan comparison except these two would get to grow together and would be in their primes, not after one had been injured.

My question now becomes is Webber still known as a choker? Does he step up and carry the team games Shaq fouls out or gets injured? Or do this situation even come up with Shaq and C Webb playing together.

[Goldrush25]

injuries. he was hurt almost every year.

Surprised it took until the second page for someone to say this.