How do Kobe fans have the audacity to talk about clutchness?

[aburre21]

:lol his fans are a complete ****in joke


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orsbX3HrUmE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orsbX3HrUmE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_fhwqXmUMk


that's 3 game winners off Kobe misses

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VquoPzITjSI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-mT99HCFFI

D Fish and Artest hitting the biggest shots of the game

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2DLx7oTbRk

Trevor Ariza making game clinching plays, did it multiple times too




I mean, do I have to add on. Kobe is not clutch by any stretch of the imagination, don't mention him in the same sentence with players like Jordan and Bird

[Nebraskanball]

Hahahahahahahahah

Kobe is always on yo minds.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Maybe because Kobe was never afraid to take the clutch shot, no matter what the circumstances.
Lebron, on the other hand, had a history of wetting his pants (see 2007 and 2011).
Congrats to Lebron for stepping up in the 4th quarter last night. For a true superstar, that would not be something discussed, but given Lebron's history, its actually news that he took over in the 4th.

[aburre21]

Kobe is not a clutch performer, especially in the playoffs. that's a fact

[Magic 32]

Maybe because Kobe was never afraid to take the clutch shot, no matter what the circumstances.
Lebron, on the other hand, had a history of wetting his pants (see 2007 and 2011).
Congrats to Lebron for stepping up in the 4th quarter last night. For a true superstar, that would not be something discussed, but given Lebron's history, its actually news that he took over in the 4th.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[aburre21]

Maybe because Kobe was never afraid to take the clutch shot, no matter what the circumstances.
Lebron, on the other hand, had a history of wetting his pants (see 2007 and 2011).
Congrats to Lebron for stepping up in the 4th quarter last night. For a true superstar, that would not be something discussed, but given Lebron's history, its actually news that he took over in the 4th.


it's funny how a guy who scored 27 pts in a row for his team and has hit multiple game winners can be perceived as unclutch while the guy who misses game winner after game winner is considered a closer :lol



the brainwashing of the media is ridiculous

[Kews1]

Maybe because Kobe was never afraid to take the clutch shot, no matter what the circumstances.
.

But dosnt that make him foolish since it is obvious that he really isnt good at it? haha

[chips93]

Maybe because Kobe was never afraid to take the clutch shot, no matter what the circumstances.

and? who cares if he is afraid of shooting it or not, all that matters, is whether he is good at shooting the shots.

[aburre21]

Kobe so clutch :lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lpt9RnjU08A


turnover
airball
brick!!!!

[Droid101]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lpt9RnjU08A

Kobe so clutch :lol
turnover
airball
brick!!!!
Do we really need to go back and post all the game winners Kobe does have?

Here you go:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=301808


http://www.realclearsports.com/blognetwork/looks_like_another_perfect_day/Bryant%20celebrating%20GW.jpg

All games with the source, list of game, date and shot.

Before people try to say he's missed a lot. Please source those games, as I have sourced the game winners. Feel free to bookmark this thread for future use against his detractors.

Enjoy the video.

:applause:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TU-BGoQ65zw


27 out of the 28 total game-winners (FIELD GOALS ONLY) Kobe has hit in his 17-year career with the Lakers in chronological order.



1. May 10, 2000: Lakers 97 - Suns 96 (Playoffs)
2. June 14, 2000: Lakers 120 - Pacers 118 (Playoffs - NBA Finals)
**3.** Feb. 07, 2001: Lakers 85 - Suns 83
4. Feb. 13, 2001: Lakers 113 - Nets 110
5. Feb. 22, 2002: Lakers 96 - Hornets 94
6. May 12, 2002: Lakers 87 - Spurs 85 (Playoffs)
7. Dec. 06, 2002: Lakers 105 - Mavericks 103
8. April 04, 2003: Lakers 102 - Grizzlies 101
9. Dec. 19, 2003: Lakers 101 - Nuggets 99
10. April 14, 2004: Lakers 105 - Blazers 104
11. Mar. 12, 2005: Lakers 117 - Bobcats 116
12. Nov. 02, 2005: Lakers 99 - Nuggets 97
13. Jan. 12, 2006: Lakers 99 - Cavaliers 98
14. April 30, 2006: Lakers 99 - Suns 98 (Playoffs)
15. Jan. 14, 2008: Lakers 123 - Sonics 121
16. May 21, 2008: Lakers 89 - Spurs 85 (Playoffs)
17. Jul. 22, 2008: Blue 105 - White 104 (Team USA Scrimmage)
18. Jan. 09, 2009: Lakers 121 - Pacers 119
19. Dec. 04, 2009: Lakers 108 - Heat 107
20. Dec. 16, 2009: Lakers 107 - Bucks 106
21. Jan. 01, 2010: Lakers 109 - Kings 108
22. Jan. 31, 2010: Lakers 90 - Celtics 89
23. Feb. 23, 2010: Lakers 99 - Grizzlies 98
24. Mar. 09, 2010: Lakers 109 - Raptors 107
25. Feb. 12, 2012: Lakers 94 - Raptors 92
26. Mar. 31, 2012: Lakers 88 - Hornets 85
27. Mar. 03, 2013: Lakers 99 - Hawks 98
28. Mar. 08, 2013: Lakers 118 - Raptors 116




**The 1 game-winner that is not included in this video (against the Suns on Feb. 7th, 2001).

If anybody can find it, please let me know and I'll complete the list.




This list does NOT include:

1. Free Throw game-winners.

2. Countless game-tying shots to send the game to OT.

3. Countless clutch shots with more than 24 seconds to go.

4. Shots which gave the Lakers the lead, but the other team scored on the following possession to beat them.

5. Shots which gave the Lakers the lead, but there were multiple ties/lead changes afterwards.

[aburre21]

dude posting regular season game winners :lol :lol



we talking about the playoffs clown. when it really matters!

[Johnny Jones]

Do we really need to go back and post all the game winners Kobe does have?

Here you go:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=301808
Only 28? :roll:

[Trollsmasher]

Do we really need to go back and post all the game winners Kobe does have?

Here you go:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=301808
This list also does not include an unending line of clutch bricks (the highest in NBA history).

[WayOfWade]

Statistically, Kobe isn't very clutch from what I've read. The eye-test pulls people both ways. I say that Kobe misses most of his clutch shots, but he makes the biggest ones, despite his streak of missed playoff game winners since 09'.

[jzek]

Kobe is not a clutch performer, especially in the playoffs. that's a fact

Please don't make me post the best clutch performers' stats in the closing seconds picture (hint: Kobe is at the bottom of that list from ESPN). Kobe is not clutch at all! He's sub 40% shooting when it mattered the most!

[jzek]

Kobe is so clutch:

http://i.imgur.com/bP4X0vS.jpg





/thread

[aburre21]

Statistically, Kobe isn't very clutch from what I've read. The eye-test pulls people both ways. I say that Kobe misses most of his clutch shots, but he makes the biggest ones, despite his streak of missed playoff game winners since 09'.

More like ESPN and sports writers and analysts tell people that Kobe is clutch and a closer and they believe. No way someone that watches this guy play on a regular basis thinks he's clutch. It's impossible

[Johnny Jones]

Kobe is so clutch:

http://i.imgur.com/bP4X0vS.jpg





/thread
Holy shit. that is really ****ing bad. :roll:

[Magic 32]

Kobe is so clutch:

http://i.imgur.com/bP4X0vS.jpg

/thread

Last night that 5-12 got a whole lot worse.

But hey, he finally realised that % doesn't necessarily make you clutch.

Now we only need his himbo idiot fans to get it.

[Droid101]

Only 28? :roll:
Apparently you didn't read the bottom part of the post.

[STATUTORY]

Kobe is so clutch:

http://i.imgur.com/bP4X0vS.jpg





/thread

made up stats based on prejudiced criterias

[che guevara]

Last night that 5-12 got a whole lot worse.

But hey, he finally realised that % doesn't necessarily make you clutch.

Now we only need his himbo idiot fans to get it.
:oldlol: He's now 7-16 on his career, dipshit. Those numbers are from 2011. I also didn't realize that missing one shot made his numbers "a whole lot worse". Kobe's numbers have gotten worse since then though, he hasn't made a game winner since 2008.

You've spent the last several months of your life hating on a guy you've never met on the Internet. Go outside.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Lol, kobe has the most loyal fanbase of any player ever maybe only jordan too. You see lebron fans openly jumping ship at least 2 times per season, shits hilarious :roll:

[DMAVS41]

Kobe is clutch. Actually very clutch.

Just not nearly as clutch as all his moronic fans have claimed for years. But we proved that years ago on here when all the actual data came out.

Clutch? Yep. A clutch God? Nope.

[TheAnchorman]

Kobe is clutch. Actually very clutch.

Just not nearly as clutch as all his moronic fans have claimed for years. But we proved that years ago on here when all the actual data came out.

Clutch? Yep. A clutch God? Nope.
Agreed.

He nearly costs his team a title by shooting one of the worst FG% of his life in Game 7 of the 2010 NBA Finals. No one wants that. But he makes up for it by grabbing 15 rebounds (as an SG no less).

Clutch can come in so many different ways, FG% is not the only way to measure that shit.

[funnystuff]

Kobe is so clutch:

http://i.imgur.com/bP4X0vS.jpg





/thread
/thread /thread /thread

[Magic 32]

You've spent the last several months of your life hating on a guy you've never met on the Internet. Go outside.

Last several months?

Where have you been the last 5 years?

And if you love real basketball, it's worth speaking out against the Lucifer of the sport.

It's a losing battle off course. Lebron's armies of darkness will eventually march all over was once a great and nobel sport. Flash will always beat substance. But I won't go down without a fight.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Lets not talk about those TWO key turnovers last night in the closing minutes whereby he almost fumbled away the game. Thank god for Ray Ray, amiright?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tp9dA5z3hX0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dhZwkwWDdk

[chopchop20]

CLUTCH is more than hitting 1 shot at the end of the game.

The young'uns on here.. I swear :facepalm

[daily]

Kobe will go down as one of the all time greats, regular season, playoffs, finals and international. He has a world wide fanbase that's unparalleled in professional BB. All the posts and ignorance cannot and will never take that away.

People can make threads all day everyday trying to knock him down and it won't change that fact. You ask anyone who really knows the game of basketball or anyone that truly cares about the sport and it's history and they'll confirm what I've posted.


Basically if you can't appreciate Kobe or Lebron or any other of the all time greats for what they are than that's a you problem.

[Soundwave]

Kobe is so clutch:

http://i.imgur.com/bP4X0vS.jpg





/thread

LeBron probably went down a bit yesterday with all those bricks, but yeah Kobe is very overrated down the stretch. Too much hero ball and fade away long distance shots.

[Rooster]

LeBron probably went down a bit yesterday with all those bricks, but yeah Kobe is very overrated down the stretch. Too much hero ball and fade away long distance shots.

Last second shots are always a tough shot. We seen guys blow lay ups and brick free throws. Kobe is clutch no matter what those percentages indicate. Just look when Lebron, Wade, Melo and Kobe all played together back in 2008. Kobe closed out the game for them for the gold.

[Nashty]

Kobe is not clutch , he is actually a definiton of anti-clutch. I mean, the guy loses 4 games on his own by his chucking and playing hero ball in the last two minutes where he misses like 5 shots, and then hits one game winner in a game that would be a blowout if he don't chuck shot after shot in first 46 minutes of the game, and then he's clutch :facepalm :no: :facepalm

[Rooster]

Kobe is not clutch , he is actually a definiton of anti-clutch. I mean, the guy loses 4 games on his own by his chucking and playing hero ball in the last two minutes where he misses like 5 shots, and then hits one game winner in a game that would be a blowout if he don't chuck shot after shot in first 46 minutes of the game, and then he's clutch :facepalm :no: :facepalm

Yes 5 rings. Even if Kobe never play again, The end did justify the means.

[Jameerthefear]

Lebron stans got Kobe on the brain 24/7 :facepalm
clowns.

[Flash31]

Last several months?

Where have you been the last 5 years?

And if you love real basketball, it's worth speaking out against the Lucifer of the sport.

It's a losing battle off course. Lebron's armies of darkness will eventually march all over was once a great and nobel sport. Flash will always beat substance. But I won't go down without a fight.


The Lucifer,armies of darkness,marching all over what WAS a great and noble sport,
WHAT?!

Man GO outside,stop playing World of Warcraft and being next to priests bc theyre starting to bleed into your basketball discussions.


Literally all,LITERALLY ALL
your posts have been hating on the HEAT or LeBron.

Youre not even a fan,you are just a complete and utter hater.

You need some serious therapy,counseling,and need to see a professional psychologist
and check into a mental ward.

[bmulls]

CLUTCH is more than hitting 1 shot at the end of the game.

The young'uns on here.. I swear :facepalm

Yep, clutch is scoring 16 pts in the 4th quarter in an elimination game to save your season.

[daily]

Last several months?

Where have you been the last 5 years?

And if you love real basketball, it's worth speaking out against the Lucifer of the sport.

It's a losing battle off course. Lebron's armies of darkness will eventually march all over was once a great and nobel sport. Flash will always beat substance. But I won't go down without a fight.

So when prospective employers look at your R

[Nashty]

Yes 5 rings. Even if Kobe never play again, The end did justify the means.

Shaq years(not counting first two Kobe's seasons because he wasn't a starter)

With Kobe: 285-126 (.693)
Without Kobe: 33-16 (.673)

With Shaq: 292-110 (.726)
Without Shaq: 26-32 (.448)

Middle 3 years

With Kobe: 112-111 (.502)
Without Kobe: 9-14 (.391)

With Odom: 106-94 (.530)
Without Odom: 15-31 (.326)

Gasol years

With Kobe: 308-147 (.677)
Without Kobe: 14-7 (.667)

With Gasol: 257-112 (.696)
Without Gasol: 35-26 (.574)

Kobe was never valuable/important to the Lakers as much as Shaq, Odom and Gasol :no: He was just chucking them out of a few more championships :cheers:

[Rooster]

Shaq years(not counting first two Kobe's seasons because he wasn't a starter)

With Kobe: 285-126 (.693)
Without Kobe: 33-16 (.673)

With Shaq: 292-110 (.726)
Without Shaq: 26-32 (.448)

Middle 3 years

With Kobe: 112-111 (.502)
Without Kobe: 9-14 (.391)

With Odom: 106-94 (.530)
Without Odom: 15-31 (.326)

Gasol years

With Kobe: 308-147 (.677)
Without Kobe: 14-7 (.667)

With Gasol: 257-112 (.696)
Without Gasol: 35-26 (.574)

Kobe was never valuable/important to the Lakers as much as Shaq, Odom and Gasol :no: He was just chucking them out of a few more championships :cheers:


You also forgot to indicate that Lakers went 3-10 without Luke Walton

And 27-16 with him.

More valuable than Kobe and Odom.:oldlol:

[Nashty]

You also forgot to indicate that Lakers went 3-10 without Luke Walton

And 27-16 with him.

More valuable than Kobe and Odom.:oldlol:

Don't count role players, counting only stars on the team. But if that's true then he was some hell of a role player, just like Andersen for the Heat this year :cheers:

If you want to count role players, then why is Kobe better than Horry? 7>5, right :confusedshrug:

[jstern]

Please don't make me post the best clutch performers' stats in the closing seconds picture (hint: Kobe is at the bottom of that list from ESPN). Kobe is not clutch at all! He's sub 40% shooting when it mattered the most!
Wasn't he like sub 30%? All the hype makes people think he's only sub 40%, which means above 30%.

Edit: Saw the picture and it's sub 25.9% in the last 7 years. The numbers could be different if we include his whole career.

[Rooster]

Don't count role players, counting only stars on the team. But if that's true then he was some hell of a role player, just like Andersen for the Heat this year :cheers:

If you want to count role players, then why is Kobe better than Horry? 7>5, right :confusedshrug:


Hmmm

So Lamar Odom was a star player:facepalm

I wish he was actually when he played for the Lakers.

[daily]

You also forgot to indicate that Lakers went 3-10 without Luke Walton

And 27-16 with him.

More valuable than Kobe and Odom.:oldlol:
His numbers are skewed. as an example Odom played 519 games for the Lakers yet he only reports a couple hundred, less than half.

I'd look up the others but idiots with agendas aren't worth the time, I just put them on ignore and move on. :lol

[Nashty]

Hmmm

So Lamar Odom was a star player:facepalm

I wish he was actually when he played for the Lakers.

15-10-5 are All Star numbers :cheers:

[tazb]

Kobe maybe the most clutch ever in the regular season (even though he's not, just making Kobe-tards happy), playoff time? 6-24 defines his playoff career, with no memorable moments.

[Nashty]

His numbers are skewed. as an example Odom played 519 games for the Lakers yet he only reports a couple hundred, less than half.

I'd look up the others but idiots with agendas aren't worth the time, I just put them on ignore and move on. :lol

Middle 3 years, my friend, the era after Shaq and before Gasol, when Odom was the 2nd best player on the team. Just put me on ignore. Thruth hurts, I know :cheers:

[Magic 32]

Kobe maybe the most clutch ever in the regular season (even though he's not, just making Kobe-tards happy), playoff time? 6-24 defines his playoff career, with no memorable moments.

Searched ambitionasaridah. This is the third picture. Can't you wait until after the game?

http://www.terezowens.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Lebron-knee-to-the-nuts.jpg

[JBrizzy]

I actually think Kobe Bryant is a ******.

[stanlove1111]

Maybe because Kobe was never afraid to take the clutch shot, no matter what the circumstances.
.


This is just what Kobe counted on, and that's why he forces so many shots in crunch time. he figures that you put up a tone of shots in crunch time then people will go you credit for not being scared, even if you ignore wide open teammates..Kobe is as unclutch as it gets..As a Laker hater I love it when Kobe gets the ball at crunch time, it usually means the Lakers just lost.

[aburre21]

I have no problem with people criticizing Bron for not showing up in the clutch, what I do have a problem with is Kobe stans pretending their idol is clutch and acting like he performs better in those situations :lol





Now if you're a Jordan or Bird fan, you can talk all the shit you want about LeBron because at least your favorite player was actually a clutch god :lol

[Rooster]

This is just what Kobe counted on, and that's why he forces so many shots in crunch time. he figures that you put up a tone of shots in crunch time then people will go you credit for not being scared, even if you ignore wide open teammates..Kobe is as unclutch as it gets..As a Laker hater I love it when Kobe gets the ball at crunch time, it usually means the Lakers just lost.

Kobe will get criticize no matter if he took the shot or he pass it to someone. He passed it to wide open teammate Horry who missed a corner 3 and he still got criticized for not taking that shot. I'm sure as a Laker hater, you also enjoyed that moment.

Action speaks louder than words. When Lebron, Melo, Wade, Cp3 and Kobe all played together, they all went to Kobe to close out the game for them.:bowdown:

[TheAnchorman]

Kobe will get criticize no matter if he took the shot or he pass it to someone. He passed it to wide open teammate Horry who missed a corner 3 and he still got criticized for not taking that shot. I'm sure as a Laker hater, you also enjoyed that moment.

Action speaks louder than words. When Lebron, Melo, Wade, Cp3 and Kobe all played together, they all went to Kobe to close out the game for them.:bowdown:
Because in 2008 Kobe was the best player and 'alpha dog' on the team. In 2012 it was a very different story.

[madmax]

[QUOTE=daily]So when prospective employers look at your R

[Rooster]

Because in 2008 Kobe was the best player and 'alpha dog' on the team. In 2012 it was a very different story.

He was not as you call the alpha dog on that team. Though he set the tone defensively because thats what he felt win will them the gold. The only close game they have which is the gold medal, they all went to him. Last year same story, this time Lebron did his thing on close games.

[KingBeasley08]

[QUOTE=daily]So when prospective employers look at your R

[Magic 32]

[QUOTE=daily]So when prospective employers look at your R

[Rose'sACL]

Kobe and Lebron last min clutch stats in playoffs
James: 13/26 http://goo.gl/7xeJG
Kobe: 10/37 http://goo.gl/Ap4fq

[Magic 32]

Kobe and Lebron last min clutch stats in playoffs
James: 13/26 http://goo.gl/7xeJG
Kobe: 10/37 http://goo.gl/Ap4fq

3 of his makes in the same game. 3 against the 06 Wizards (one of the worst teams in playoff history). :roll:

Once again. All smoke and mirrors.

[edrick]

3 of his makes in the same game. 4 against the 06 Wizards. :roll:

Still better than Kobe :roll: .

[chosen_wun]

There is no factual evidence to prove that Kobe is even reliable in the clutch. CHANCES are he will miss a lot more than he'll make.

All Kobetards have are youtube clips. It must hurt than even a known choker like LeBron is more likely to convert a win than Kobe :applause:

[Rose'sACL]

3 of his makes in the same game. 4 against the 06 Wizards. :roll:
http://i.imgur.com/kFvvla1.jpg

[Magic 32]

Still better than Kobe :roll: .

I would like to see 06 Kobe against the 42-40 wizards.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=&match=game&year_min=2005&year_max=2007&age_min=0&age_max=99&team_id=LAL&opp_id=WAS&is_playoffs=N&round_is_eds=Y&round_is_edf=Y&round_is_ec1=Y&round_is_ecs=Y&round_is_ecf=Y&round_is_wds=Y&round_is_wdf=Y&round_is_wc1=Y&round_is_wcs=Y&round_is_wcf=Y&round_is_fin=Y&game_num_type=&game_num_min=&game_num_max=&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&is_starter=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&c1stat=pts&c1comp=gt&c1val=38&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=pts

[Rose'sACL]

3 of his makes in the same game. 4 against the 06 Wizards. :roll:
http://i.imgur.com/kFvvla1.jpg
these are still the facts:
Kobe and Lebron last min clutch stats in playoffs
James: 13/26 http://goo.gl/7xeJG
Kobe: 10/37 http://goo.gl/Ap4fq

[Magic 32]

http://i.imgur.com/kFvvla1.jpg
these are still the facts:
Kobe and Lebron last min clutch stats in playoffs
James: 13/26 http://goo.gl/7xeJG
Kobe: 10/37 http://goo.gl/Ap4fq

Yes, these are still facts devoided of any context or intelligence.

[guy]

Kobe is very overrated in the clutch, specifically in the playoffs. Maybe Kobe fans have no room to talk. However, he never plays like a bitch the way Lebron does at times. They have good reason to talk about that.

[Nashty]

4th quarter or overtime, 5:00 or less left in quarter, scoring margin between -5 and 5 points.

James: 89-202 (.441)
Bryant: 91-238 (.382)

Clutchbe :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[chopchop20]

4th quarter or overtime, 5:00 or less left in quarter, scoring margin between -5 and 5 points.

James: 89-202 (.441)
Bryant: 91-238 (.382)

Clutchbe :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Meaningless

[Nashty]

Meaningless

What is meaningless? You Kobe fans are so ****ing hilarious, your only argument is 5 rings :roll:

But, when someone write actual facts, you just say that is meaningless or just call that guy a troll because you have no ****ing argument. You're just pathetic.

[chopchop20]

Yep, clutch is scoring 16 pts in the 4th quarter in an elimination game to save your season.

Not the most shining example of clutch, due to the turnovers. But the shots he made were big and the Heat won. So you gotta give him credit

[chopchop20]

What is meaningless? You Kobe fans are so ****ing hilarious, your only argument is 5 rings :roll:

We're reducing clutchness to FG% now.. REALLY? :coleman:

It's reasonable to assume that LeBron had far more opportunities and made more shots inside the restricted area (because we know his outside shooting is supspect)

But that's besides the point... because you're dismissing the other aspects of the game as being clutch, like defense, passing, and rebounding.

If the K Leonard get's those 2 defensive rebounds late in Game 6, that's not clutch?

Chris Bosh's rebound and kick out to Ray Allen wasn't a clutch play? What about Bosh's blocked shots late in the game. Where's the FG% for that?

:facepalm

[Nashty]

It's reasonable to assume that LeBron had far more opportunities and made more shots inside the restricted area (because we know his outside shooting is supspect)

If his outside shooting is suspect that would mean that other teams can clog the paint and he would score none, and yet he scored only 2 less on 36 shots less. Explain how is that possible?


But that's besides the point... because you're dismissing the other aspects of the game as being clutch, like defense, passing, and rebounding.

If the K Leonard get's those 2 defensive rebounds late in Game 6, that's not clutch?

Chris Bosh's rebound and kick out to Ray Allen wasn't a clutch play? What about Bosh's blocked shots late in the game. Where's the FG% for that?

:facepalm


You really think that Kobe who is a worse defender, passer and rebounder than LeBron is playing better defense, grabs more rebounds and dishes more assists in clutch than LeBron? :facepalm

James was supposedly the one who is afraid to take the shot in the clutch, and Bryant is the ultimate closer and have that killer instict and yet he still scored only 2 more FG on far worse shooting :facepalm

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

What is meaningless? You Kobe fans are so ****ing hilarious, your only argument is 5 rings :roll:

But, when someone write actual facts, you just say that is meaningless or just call that guy a troll because you have no ****ing argument. You're just pathetic.

Such stats are meaningless because they don't provide context.
For example, which teams were they playing? Great defensive teams or less than great defensive teams?
Was there only 1 second on the shot clock when the player got the ball to shoot?
Was the shot a last second chuck from the halfcourt (as is often the case). Does a player refuse to take a last second chuck because he knows it will hurt his stats (like Lebron did at the half the other game)?
Was the player consistently double-teamed but had to shoot anyway because the clock was winding down?
etc
etc
etc

If you rely on stats, you are wasting your time.

[taucesays]

Such stats are meaningless because they don't provide context.
For example, which teams were they playing? Great defensive teams or less than great defensive teams?
Was there only 1 second on the shot clock when the player got the ball to shoot?
Was the shot a last second chuck from the halfcourt (as is often the case). Does a player refuse to take a last second chuck because he knows it will hurt his stats (like Lebron did at the half the other game)?
Was the player consistently double-teamed but had to shoot anyway because the clock was winding down?
etc
etc
etc

If you rely on stats, you are wasting your time.

Stop using logic on ISH. Ain't nobody got time for dat.

[dh144498]

If his outside shooting is suspect that would mean that other teams can clog the paint and he would score none, and yet he scored only 2 less on 36 shots less. Explain how is that possible?




You really think that Kobe who is a worse defender, passer and rebounder than LeBron is playing better defense, grabs more rebounds and dishes more assists in clutch than LeBron? :facepalm

James was supposedly the one who is afraid to take the shot in the clutch, and Bryant is the ultimate closer and have that killer instict and yet he still scored only 2 more FG on far worse shooting :facepalm

yet you neglect being passive and not taking shots at all, which is far worse.
:coleman:

[chopchop20]

If his outside shooting is suspect that would mean that other teams can clog the paint and he would score none, and yet he scored only 2 less on 36 shots less. Explain how is that possible?

No if, watch the game.


You really think that Kobe who is a worse defender, passer and rebounder than LeBron is playing better defense, grabs more rebounds and dishes more assists in clutch than LeBron? :facepalm

Do you have proof that Kobe didn't?

James was supposedly the one who is afraid to take the shot in the clutch, and Bryant is the ultimate closer and have that killer instict and yet he still scored only 2 more FG on far worse shooting :facepalm

If those 2 extra made shots were game winners, that doesn't matter? If those game winners avoided being eliminated from the playoffs, it doesn't matter? If those game winners clinched a series, victory it doesn't matter?

You video game nerds today, I swear... trying to explain the world in numbers. Forever dissecting the whole into fragments. Then trying to reconstruct the whole based on a fragment that your tiny mind has decided to focus on while neglecting the rest of what made the whole.

[Nashty]

Such stats are meaningless because they don't provide context.
For example, which teams were they playing? Great defensive teams or less than great defensive teams?
Was there only 1 second on the shot clock when the player got the ball to shoot?
Was the shot a last second chuck from the halfcourt (as is often the case). Does a player refuse to take a last second chuck because he knows it will hurt his stats (like Lebron did at the half the other game)?
Was the player consistently double-teamed but had to shoot anyway because the clock was winding down?
etc
etc
etc

If you rely on stats, you are wasting your time.

James was supposedly the one who is afraid to take the shot in the clutch, and Bryant is the ultimate closer and have that killer instict and yet he still scored only 2 more FG on far worse shooting. How do you justify that your GOAT clutch player scored only 2 more FG than the ultimate choker?

[chopchop20]

James was supposedly the one who is afraid to take the shot in the clutch, and Bryant is the ultimate closer and have that killer instict and yet he still scored only 2 more FG on far worse shooting. How do you justify that your GOAT clutch player scored only 2 more FG than the ultimate choker?

Does that tell us how many shots that LeBron might have passed up? What if 40% of the shots he attempted were bail-out situations, less than 3 seconds on the shot clock, when passing was not an option.

[Nashty]

yet you neglect being passive and not taking shots at all, which is far worse.
:coleman:

And yet he scored just 2 less FG's with his passiveness :facepalm


If those 2 extra made shots were game winners, that doesn't matter? If those game winners avoided being eliminated from the playoffs, it doesn't matter? If those game winners clinched a series, victory it doesn't matter?


You video game nerds today, I swear... trying to explain the world in numbers. Forever dissecting the whole into fragments. Then trying to reconstruct the whole based on a fragment that your tiny mind has decided to focus on while neglecting the rest of what made the whole.

How does it feel to find out that your ultimate closer, the guy the with best killer instinct is actually not better than the ultimate choker and that he won 5 rings because of his bigs who were much more valuable to the team than him :rockon:

[Magic 32]

How do you justify that your GOAT clutch player scored only 2 more FG than the ultimate choker?

Because he was able to concentrate all of his most inept choking in to 5 or 6 potent doses, mostly at the most critical moments of his career.

And when his ship goes down, he almost never finds a way to get back in the game (with game 6 as the exception).

[chopchop20]

And yet he scored just 2 less FG's with his passiveness :facepalm


If those 2 extra made shots were game winners, that doesn't matter? If those game winners avoided being eliminated from the playoffs, it doesn't matter? If those game winners clinched a series, victory it doesn't matter?



How does it feel to find out that your ultimate closer, the guy the with best killer instinct is actually not better than the ultimate choker and that he won 5 rings because of his bigs who were much more valuable to the team than him :rockon:

WYSIATI

God bless the children.... :facepalm

[Nashty]

Does that tell us how many shots that LeBron might have passed up? What if 40% of the shots he attempted were bail-out situations, less than 3 seconds on the shot clock, when passing was not an option.

He is too smart to do that, he will find open teammates before the end of shot clock, he is not Kobe who holds the ball for 22 seconds with not even looking at his teammates and then shoot over 3 guys with the buzzer, so he can have excuse when he misses.

[chopchop20]

He is too smart to do that, he will find open teammates before the end of shot clock.

What if the LeBron's teammates passed the ball to him with less than 3 seconds on the shot clock? :facepalm

WYSIATI

[Nashty]

WYSIATI

God bless the children.... :facepalm

I know you're pissed because I exposed your Godbe :roll:

[dh144498]

He is too smart to do that, he will find open teammates before the end of shot clock, he is not Kobe who holds the ball for 22 seconds with not even looking at his teammates and then shoot over 3 guys with the buzzer, so he can have excuse when he misses.

:oldlol:
I already know you don't watch many games and just assume things. Lebron does that alot too. Only difference is, if Lebron can't get a good look after 22 seconds, he'll just pass it to any teammate for a last second bail out shot. That's why Wade and Bosh have such lower FG%.
:roll:

[Magic 32]

He is too smart to do that, he will find open teammates before the end of shot clock, he is not Kobe who holds the ball for 22 seconds with not even looking at his teammates and then shoot over 3 guys with the buzzer, so he can have excuse when he misses.

I never see Lebron take difficult shots at the buzzer. Not even at halftime.

Grab the ball at mid-court, a quick pass to Norris Cole for the 39 foot fadeaway. Walks of with his FG% intact.

[chopchop20]

:oldlol:
I already know you don't watch many games and just assume things. Lebron does that alot too. Only difference is, if Lebron can't get a good look after 22 seconds, he'll just pass it to any teammate for a last second bail out shot. That's why Wade and Bosh have such lower FG%.
:roll:

While funny, it is true. LeBron does lack considerable creativity/ability to create shots compared to MJ and Kobe (when driving lanes are closed and in traffic)

[Nashty]

:oldlol:
I already know you don't watch many games and just assume things. Lebron does that alot too. Only difference is, if Lebron can't get a good look after 22 seconds, he'll just pass it to any teammate for a last second bail out shot. That's why Wade and Bosh have such lower FG%.
:roll:

Yeah, right :facepalm

LeBron handles the ball as much as Kobe, but he's actually finding open teammates, it's not his fault that Wade can't hit an open shot :facepalm

All that Kobe does is dribble, dribble, dribble, waits for the end of the shot clock and than attempts a shot over double or triple team and than when he hits every fourth shot he is a closer :facepalm :bowdown:


I never see Lebron take difficult shots at the buzzer. Not even at halftime.

Grab the ball at mid-court, a quick pass to Norris Cole for the 39 foot fadeaway. Walks of with his FG% intact.

Yes, that is true. And I actually don't think that LeBron is some great closer, but what annoys me is when people are talking things like he doesn't have killer instinct, he will never be like Kobe because of his choking, and not taking shots and closing games when Kobe is even worse clutch player than him. I would understand if you compare him with Jordan, but Kobe :facepalm

[chopchop20]

Yeah, right :facepalm

LeBron handles the ball as much as Kobe, but he's actually finding open teammates, it's not his fault that Wade can't hit an open shot :facepalm

All that Kobe does is dribble, dribble, dribble, waits for the end of the shot clock and than attempts a shot over double or triple team and than when he hits every fourth shot he is a closer :facepalm :bowdown:



Yes, that is true. And I actually don't think that LeBron is some great closer, but what annoys me is when people are talking things like he doesn't have killer instinct, he will never be like Kobe because of his choking, and not taking shots and closing games when Kobe is even worse clutch player than him. I would understand if you compare him with Jordan, but Kobe :facepalm

An essential design feature of the associative machine is that it represents only activated ideas. Information that is not retrieved (even unconsciously) from memory might as well not exist.

System 1 excels at constructing the best possible story that incorporates ideas currently activated, but it does not (cannot) allow for information it does not have. The measure of success for System 1 is the coherence of the story it manages to create. The amount and quality of the data on which the story is based are largely irrelevant.

When information is scarce, which is a common occurrence, System 1 operates as a machine for jumping to conclusions.

WYSIATI

[dh144498]

Yeah, right :facepalm

LeBron handles the ball as much as Kobe, but he's actually finding open teammates, it's not his fault that Wade can't hit an open shot :facepalm

All that Kobe does is dribble, dribble, dribble, waits for the end of the shot clock and than attempts a shot over double or triple team and than when he hits every fourth shot he is a closer :facepalm :bowdown:



Yes, that is true. And I actually don't think that LeBron is some great closer, but what annoys me is when people are talking things like he doesn't have killer instinct, he will never be like Kobe because of his choking, and not taking shots and closing games when Kobe is even worse clutch player than him. I would understand if you compare him with Jordan, but Kobe :facepalm

again you don't watch games. I and many others non-lebron stans and non-kobe stans have all said this before, he doesn't make his teammates better like Kobe does. Lebron's mentality is to stat pad his FG% and assists first, then passes up the ball in the last second for a bail out shot, that's why Wade and Bosh's FG% are so low. He makes Bosh shoot 3s and Wade taking last second shots. :oldlol:

Look at Bosh and Wade's stats, FG% mainly, something you use alot for comparisons, since 2011 until now, they get worse every year. Don't even say Bosh is declining, the dude is the same age as lebron. :oldlol:

then look at Pau since 2008 until 2010. His stats got better every year playing along side Kobe, who wasn't even at his prime. Finally got out of the 1st round after 2008, then look at the one year he didn't play with Kobe in the playoffs in 2013, got swept again in the 1st round.

:coleman:

[Nashty]

again you don't watch games. I and many others non-lebron stans and non-kobe stans have all said this before, he doesn't make his teammates better like Kobe does. Lebron's mentality is to stat pad his FG% and assists first, then passes up the ball in the last second for a bail out shot, that's why Wade and Bosh's FG% are so low. He makes Bosh shoot 3s and Wade taking last second shots. :oldlol:

Look at Bosh and Wade's stats, FG% mainly, something you use alot for comparisons, since 2011 until now, they get worse every year. Don't even say Bosh is declining, the dude is the same age as lebron. :oldlol:

then look at Pau since 2008 until 2010. His stats got better every year playing along side Kobe, who wasn't even at his prime. Finally got out of the 1st round after 2008, then look at the one year he didn't play with Kobe in the playoffs in 2013, got swept again in the 1st round.

:coleman:


:facepalm :facepalm

Yeah, he makes them better:facepalm That's why they play about the same when he is not playing, right? They would get swept with Kobe or without Kobe, and you also forgot to say that Nash, Meeks and Blake were injured and that Morris and Goudelock were starting in the backcourt in the last two games and that the Spurs swept Grizzlies who are much better than the Lakers.

With Kobe: 308-147 (.677)
Without Kobe: 14-7 (.667)

With Gasol: 257-112 (.696)
Without Gasol: 35-26 (.574)

Yeah, Kobe is making them better, Gasol is a shit of player, and Kobe is god:facepalm

James is the one who is making his team better, look at the Cavs and Heat record with or without him. Kobe was just lucky to play with great bigs which were much more valuable than him.

With your logic Pippen is better than Jordan because Jordan could not get out of the first round without Pippen, while Pippen could without Jordan, and Pippen got a better FG% :applause:

[NBASTATMAN]

Maybe because Kobe was never afraid to take the clutch shot, no matter what the circumstances.
Lebron, on the other hand, had a history of wetting his pants (see 2007 and 2011).
Congrats to Lebron for stepping up in the 4th quarter last night. For a true superstar, that would not be something discussed, but given Lebron's history, its actually news that he took over in the 4th.


I AGREE.. At least kobe has never shied away from the moment

[chopchop20]

:facepalm :facepalm
With Kobe: 308-147 (.677)
Without Kobe: 14-7 (.667)
.

Comparing 21 games to almost 500... that's logical and sound proof :facepalm

[Nashty]

Comparing 21 games to almost 500... that's logical and sound proof :facepalm

Comparing 4 games (against the team that would swept them anyway) to 21, that makes more sense right?

What you say about this?

With Kobe: 285-126 (.693)
Without Kobe: 33-16 (.673)

With Shaq: 292-110 (.726)
Without Shaq: 26-32 (.448)

They missed about the same, small sample does not apply to Shaq or what?

[Nashty]

Comparing 21 games to almost 500... that's logical and sound proof :facepalm

Comparing 4 games (against the team that would swept them anyway) to 21 makes more sense right?

What you say about this?

With Kobe: 285-126 (.693)
Without Kobe: 33-16 (.673)

With Shaq: 292-110 (.726)
Without Shaq: 26-32 (.448)

They missed about the same, small sample does not apply to Shaq or what? It's funny how Kobe and Wilt are the only all time greats that don't have that much impact on their teams W-L's. Two guys that were great individuals but awful teammates both off and on the court.

[chopchop20]

Comparing 4 games (against the team that would swept them anyway) to 21, that makes more sense right?

What you say about this?

With Kobe: 285-126 (.693)
Without Kobe: 33-16 (.673)

With Shaq: 292-110 (.726)
Without Shaq: 26-32 (.448)

They missed about the same, small sample does not apply to Shaq or what?

I get it... you want to approve your point with numbers. What I'm pointing out is that your data is too limited. But I digress on that for now.

Let's look at "making teammates better" from a radically different view for a second. Let's look at money.

Look at the free agent contracts that players like Ariza, S. Brown, and Farmar signed after playing with Kobe. Assuming that playing with Kobe would have made them worse players, how do we explain their value increasing? If their production significantly decreased playing with Kobe, why did they appeal to other teams more?

[Nashty]

I get it... you want to approve your point with numbers. What I'm pointing out is that your data is too limited. But I digress on that for now.

Let's look at "making teammates better" from a radically different view for a second. Let's look at money.

Look at the free agent contracts that players like Ariza, S. Brown, and Farmar signed after playing with Kobe. Assuming that playing with Kobe would have made them worse players, how do we explain their value increasing? If their production significantly decreased playing with Kobe, why did they appeal to other teams more?

Explain me why are Kobe and Wilt the only all time greats that don't have that much impact on their teams W-L's? Why are the small sample don't affect just them two? I'll tell if you don't know. It's because they were great individuals but awful teammates both off and on the court and was just ruining team chemistry and nobody liked playing with them.

[chopchop20]

Explain me why are Kobe and Wilt the only all time greats that don't have that much impact on their teams W-L's? Why are the small sample don't affect just them two? I'll tell if you don't know. It's because they were great individuals but awful teammates both off and on the court and was just ruining team chemistry and nobody liked playing with them.

What numbers are using to jump to this conclusion? There could be many possible answers, but I need more data from you.

- How many games were played at home vs how many were played on the road?
- In home wins, how many days had the opponent been on the road?
- In home wins, how many times had the opponent played the night before?
- In home wins, how many times had the opponent played 2 consecutive nights before?
- What percentage of the games were the opponents also missing starting players?
- What were the overall winning percentages of the teams played?

[Nashty]

What numbers are using to jump to this conclusion? There could be many possible answers, but I need more data from you.

- How many games were played at home vs how many were played on the road?
- In home wins, how many days had the opponent been on the road?
- In home wins, how many times had the opponent played the night before?
- In home wins, how many times had the opponent played 2 consecutive nights before?
- What percentage of the games were the opponents also missing starting players?
- What were the overall winning percentages of the teams played?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you just try to defend Kobe, we all know that he is an awful teammate(Wilt, too) and that he is not missed that much when he's not playing because of that. It can't be a coincidence that those two are the only two of the all time greats that have somewhere around none impact on wins and losses. There is a thing that's called team chemistry you know?

[KyleKong]

Kobe is so clutch:

http://i.imgur.com/bP4X0vS.jpg





/thread

Whelp, that explains that.

[chopchop20]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you just try to defend Kobe, we all know that he is an awful teammate(Wilt, too) and that he is not missed that much when he's not playing because of that. It can't be a coincidence that those two are the only two of the all time greats that have somewhere around none impact on wins and losses. There is a thing that's called team chemistry you know?

Get back to me, once you have the rest of the data

[dh144498]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you just try to defend Kobe, we all know that he is an awful teammate(Wilt, too) and that he is not missed that much when he's not playing because of that. It can't be a coincidence that those two are the only two of the all time greats that have somewhere around none impact on wins and losses. There is a thing that's called team chemistry you know?

yeah obviously he isn't missed much. Lebron tards are still insecure about their comparisons even now, still making threads about Kobe, and you are in every thread commenting on Kobe.

:applause:

[KingBeasley08]

Yeah, Kobe isn't that clutch in the playoffs

[Nashty]

Get back to me, once you have the rest of the data

Impact on W-L's: Wilt Chamberlain (http://www.scribd.com/doc/149039562/Impact-on-W-L-s-Wilt-Chamberlain)

[URL="http://www.behindthebasket.com/btb/2011/9/1/its-all-about-the-ws-kobe-bryant.html"]It