Can we now finally admit 'small ball' doesn't win

[JtotheIzzo]

Memphis, San Antonio, Indiana (and of course the LeBron exception) proves that all the nonsense all the talking heads spewed all season about small ball, all the shit about how Carmelo or Harrison Barnes at the four makes those teams 'athletic and tough to keep up with' is just a bunch of drivel from the mouths of reactionaries.

Need to be big to win (or have LeBron), this is the reality of the situation, and reason why teams like the Lakers need to not blow everything up.

Big wins in the playoffs (or having LeBron), this is fact, small ball is cute, and will help you beat up on shittier teams or teams playing back to back during the regular season, but you will not go deep in the playoffs riding a jumpshooty-gimmick.

[DMAVS41]

I think any offensive style can win.

The point is that you have to be able to defend well in the half court to win in the playoffs. A lot of times that means having at least 1 big that can protect the paint and play great help side defense and still rebound.

But the Heat definitely play "small ball"...they just also play great defense mainly due to Wade and Lebron....and effort from role players.

[FiveRings]

Memphis, San Antonio, Indiana (and of course the 3 starting All Stars exception) proves that all the nonsense all the talking heads spewed all season about small ball, all the shit about how Carmelo or Harrison Barnes at the four makes those teams 'athletic and tough to keep up with' is just a bunch of drivel from the mouths of reactionaries.

Need to be big to win (or have 3 starting All Stars), this is the reality of the situation, and reason why teams like the Lakers need to not blow everything up.

Big wins in the playoffs (or having 3 starting All Stars), this is fact, small ball is cute, and will help you beat up on shittier teams or teams playing back to back during the regular season, but you will not go deep in the playoffs riding a jumpshooty-gimmick.
Fixed that for you

[andremiller07]

It proves you need skilled big men with the ability to do more than just get spoon feed, the 4 teams left have all very good/elite bigs from Duncan, Gasol, Bosh, Z-Bo, West & Hibbert.

Most the teams they had to play small ball was ethier a result of injury (David Lee)/ foul trouble or the fact these teams big's could really do nothing for themselves and in the playoffs that's never going to get it done,I'm sure if those team actually had big men who were talented they would have never played small ball in the first place. It just proves how impactful Big's still are/can be if they got the skills.

[wang4three]

It's always been easier to win when you had bigs that rebounded well.

[SewerUrchin]

The Heat have evolved beyond playing small ball this season. In a way, it was forced on them last year due to Bosh's injury in the playoffs and their lack of any quality bigs. The insertion of Birdman into their rotation has changed things a bit for them, since they have a high energy big who can score inside.

The last couple of years, Miami's bench was a major liability. Whenever they had to rest 2 out of the big 3, they often dropped whatever lead they were sitting on. It was their starting and ending 5 (swap Haslem for Battier) that outplayed the opposition enough to compensate.

This year, in many games the starters hold serve, and it's been the bench that boosts the energy and helps them pull away. Combine that with the fact that they are back to traditional point guard initiated offense for a majority of their possessions, and it's not really small ball.

Also, don't be surprised if we see a Birdman/Bosh/Lebron front court for a few cycles in the next couple of rounds. That's not so small after all.

[1987_Lakers]

The playoffs over the years has proven that if you are a good defensive team, have a solid inside game on offense, rebound, & don't overly depend on 3 point shots you will be successful in the postseason.

- The 3 point shot worked for the Warriors for a while, but they ran out of luck.
- Nuggets had no post threat
- OKC over the years have had no post threat
- D. Howard's Magic depended on the 3 point shot too much, they got bounced every year.
- Cp3's Clippers are another good example.

Miami can't rebound the basketball, but they play good defense, have players who can score inside, & of course they have LeBron.

[Lebron23]

2007 Phoenix Suns is probably the best small ball team of all time. They are one of the best teams who never won an NBA Championship.

[bdreason]

Warriors are not a small ball team; we rebound and defend. We start Bogut - Lee - Barnes when healthy, all guys that can score and pass from the high/low post. We do take way too many jumpers though.


I think Miami does play small ball, but they have a luxury that others team don't... they have a top 5 player in the NBA at 3 positions, including the best player in the NBA. The Heat have developed a perimeter oriented defense that works for them, but wouldn't work for most teams.


I actually think the 3 toughest opponents for Miami have all made it to the semi's, and that's because the Spurs, Pacers, and Grizz DON'T try and play small ball. Each game against these teams will come down to who can impose their identity on the game.

[Celtic_Pride]

It's about having the right mix of players.

One thing for certain is you just can't put a bunch of scorers together and expect to win a title. Knicks, Nets and Clippers proved it.

[Rose'sACL]

You have to shoot really well to win while playing "small ball". Miami shoots nearly 50% from the field. they have to do that because they will not get many second chance points because of their rebounding problems.

[rmt]

Warriors are not a small ball team; we rebound and defend. We start Bogut - Lee - Barnes when healthy, all guys that can score and pass from the high/low post. We do take way too many jumpers though.


I think Miami does play small ball, but they have a luxury that others team don't... they have a top 5 player in the NBA at 3 positions, including the best player in the NBA. The Heat have developed a perimeter oriented defense that works for them, but wouldn't work for most teams.


I actually think the 3 toughest opponents for Miami have all made it to the semi's, and that's because the Spurs, Pacers, and Grizz DON'T try and play small ball. Each game against these teams will come down to who can impose their identity on the game.

IND and MEM always play their bigs. Pop (stupidly) tries to match up/down to his opponent to the detriment of the team. If SAS is lucky enough to get to the Finals, he won't play Duncan and Splitter together much. He'll go small with Leonard/Diaw at PF to try to match up with Lebron at PF.

[TonyMontana]

Bigs win championships.

Even with the Heat their two most important players that they'd suffer the most if they lost are LeBron and Bosh. I'd also go ahead and say that Birdman has been the third most important player for their team since his arrival. Guy is great and makes a huge impact on the game even in his limited minutes. I think the team would make a greater dropoff by losing him than any of their perimeter guys not named LeBron.

[chazzy]

Miami won the title last year with Battier defending PFs

[SewerUrchin]

Miami won the title last year with Battier defending PFs
None of the remaining teams in the West are like OKC from last year's finals. Different animal, and it's going to take a different strategy to win.

The thing that makes "position less" basketball interesting is the flexibility for matchups against different opponents.

[ILLsmak]

If the Heat get it this year, they prove that small ball wins.

They gotta beat Indy, which is relatively a bully team. Then SA/Memphis... the latter being more of a bully, but SA has some size, too.

You can't say "This is true... LeBron exception." What you're saying is... you can win with small ball if your players are good enough. The Knicks, however, were not a small ball team. They started Tyson Chandler.

Melo is a legit 4.

-Smak

[Artillery]

- D. Howard's Magic depended on the 3 point shot too much, they got bounced every year.

DHo being a shitty offensive player didn't help them either. lol at averaging 14 ppg in the FInals and depending on Turkoglu to carry the team offensively.

[lucky001]

Coaches are just being more flexible is all. It's easier and more productive to slide a mediocre swing into the game than a mediocre big. At least the swing will be quick and probably have a little range. It just makes more sense in the current perimeter friendly environment than fielding a stone handed big, just because.

But if you have 2 productive bigs, you'd still play them both. Sadly, the L is lacking in productive bigs.

[stephanieg]

Seems every title team since the '90s Bulls have either had:

1. An multi-talented PF who can stretch the floor and pass (Duncan, Gasol, KG, Dirk, Bosh, Sheed)

2. Shaq

Point one is true of all the remaining teams: Duncan, either M.Gasol or Z-Bo (stacked!), Bosh, and West.

[Nastradamus]

If the Heat get it this year, they prove that small ball wins.

They gotta beat Indy, which is relatively a bully team. Then SA/Memphis... the latter being more of a bully, but SA has some size, too.

You can't say "This is true... LeBron exception." What you're saying is... you can win with small ball if your players are good enough. The Knicks, however, were not a small ball team. They started Tyson Chandler.

Melo is a legit 4.

-Smak

Melo is not a legit 4 in any way,shape or form.

[Rasheed1]

Basketball has always been about matchups and small ball can only be used in certain situations or it will have a negative impact..

Melo at the 4 is not gonna work on D. You can sneak him in there on occasion, but against the Pacers? c'mon thats not gonna get it done.. You can be undersized in some situations, but you are gonna get killed in others..

coaches need to expand their strategies and trust the players on their rosters a little more.

[Rameek]

The Knicks didnt come into the year wanting to play small ball. They just invested in the wrong bigs. Tyson, Stat, Sheed, Camby, Kurt Thomas. Melo isnt a PF its good for spurts during the game.

[Doranku]

As mentioned already, the team who JUST won the title last year played small ball more often than not in the finals.

This thread is April 2013 worthy. :facepalm

[Byobob]

As mentioned already, the team who JUST won the title last year played small ball more often than not in the finals.

This thread is April 2013 worthy. :facepalm


This. They've beaten Indy in 6 without Bosh!!
Their tallest player in that series was Joel friggin' Anthony at 6 foot 9 FFS! :lol

[longtime lurker]

As mentioned already, the team who JUST won the title last year played small ball more often than not in the finals.

This thread is April 2013 worthy. :facepalm

This. OP might as well just say not having 3 superstars doesn't win,

[Teanett]

small ball works fine but hero ball will fukk you in the ass hard sooner or later.

[Zodiac]

The only reason this conversation is remotely relevant is the lack of true and good 5s in the NBA.

Small ball would get it's ass kicked against the Dikembe Mutombos, Ewings, Shaqs, and Yao Mings of the NBA

[chips93]

I think any offensive style can win.

The point is that you have to be able to defend well in the half court to win in the playoffs. A lot of times that means having at least 1 big that can protect the paint and play great help side defense and still rebound.

But the Heat definitely play "small ball"...they just also play great defense mainly due to Wade and Lebron....and effort from role players.

this

also, durant played a lot of power forward for the thunder last year, and that worked great, got them to the finals

[Zodiac]

If the Heat get it this year, they prove that small ball wins.

They gotta beat Indy, which is relatively a bully team. Then SA/Memphis... the latter being more of a bully, but SA has some size, too.

You can't say "This is true... LeBron exception." What you're saying is... you can win with small ball if your players are good enough. The Knicks, however, were not a small ball team. They started Tyson Chandler.

Melo is a legit 4.

-Smak
No they don't, and Lebron at PF is not ****ing small ball, the man is 6'9 255.

He is a PF measurable wise. Bosh is a little undersized at C but it doesn't matter since the best East Cs aside from Noah are Al Horford and Greg Monroe, two PFs playing Cs.

Yes I get they beat the Pacers without Bosh, but that is disregarding the fact that Roy Hibbert is basically a decent version of Thabeet.

[LikeABosh]

Any team can win with the right personnel. The Heat won the 2nd round and ECF without Bosh and even he is no where near a traditional "big".

[KG215]

Ummm...there's a pretty good chance that two teams who play a lot of smallball would've met in the Finals for the second straight year if Westbrook doesn't get hurt. Well, I take that back, I wouldn't say OKC plays a lot of smallball (although Brooks was finally playing Perkins less this year), but their best lineups are with Durant at PF and Ibaka or Collison at C.

[Doranku]

No they don't, and Lebron at PF is not ****ing small ball, the man is 6'9 255.

He is a PF measurable wise. Bosh is a little undersized at C but it doesn't matter since the best East Cs aside from Noah are Al Horford and Greg Monroe, two PFs playing Cs.

Yes I get they beat the Pacers without Bosh, but that is disregarding the fact that Roy Hibbert is basically a decent version of Thabeet.
LeBron James was a wing player playing the 4 spot.


That's small ball.

[Zodiac]

LeBron James was a wing player playing the 4 spot.


That's small ball.
Small Ball would imply he's undersized but using superior athleticism to win at the 4

and 255 is not undersized at the four

[jzek]

one only has to look at the best small ball team of all time - pho suns. how many titles did they win?

[G-Funk]

Fixed that for you
what he said

[ralph_i_el]

It's better to play small ball than to play scrub big men instead.

[JtotheIzzo]

Ummm...there's a pretty good chance that two teams who play a lot of smallball would've met in the Finals for the second straight year if Westbrook doesn't get hurt. Well, I take that back, I wouldn't say OKC plays a lot of smallball (although Brooks was finally playing Perkins less this year), but their best lineups are with Durant at PF and Ibaka or Collison at C.

Yeah, because an Ibaka, Perkins and Durant front line is tiny...:rolleyes:

[chips93]

Yeah, because an Ibaka, Perkins and Durant front line is tiny...:rolleyes:

he means durant at the 4, with ibaka OR collison at the 5

which is a small line-up, and one which was really effective for the thunder last year

[IGOTGAME]

he means durant at the 4, with ibaka OR collison at the 5

which is a small line-up, and one which was really effective for the thunder last year
Durant is almost 7 feet tall...

[kurple]

small ball works fine but hero ball will fukk you in the ass hard sooner or later.
this

[All Net]

Miami won playing small ball last year and can do so again but least now they have other options on how to play due to healthly bosh/birdman

[andremiller07]

It's better to play small ball than to play scrub big men instead.
Yeah pretty much this, team's would not ever play small ball if they had big men who could actually do something impactful.

[DMAVS41]

The reason why small ball generally doesn't win is because of lack of defense. But the Heat manage to play great defense despite playing small ball...that is the big difference here.

Any style can work as long as you play quality defense.

[Rose'sACL]

The reason why small ball generally doesn't win is because of lack of defense. But the Heat manage to play great defense despite playing small ball...that is the big difference here.

Any style can work as long as you play quality defense.
this is the only correct answer.

[Collie]

Miami would have won irregardless of whatever style they used.

[Byobob]

The reason why small ball generally doesn't win is because of lack of defense. But the Heat manage to play great defense despite playing small ball...that is the big difference here.

Any style can work as long as you play quality defense.


I would have to agree.

I'm not sure if I've watched enough Heat games to state this assessment, but,
It's not so hard to score against Miami once the opposing team managed to get the ball down low. The thing is, it's so hard to get the ball down low against Miami. Their help defense is superb. Lebron and Wade covers so much ground that their room for mistakes in helping others is big and Battier/Haslem/Bron almost always "front" against a taller post player with a help defense from the weak side if you throw the ball over the "fronting" defender.

I think one of the key things that Celtics were able to push the series into 7 games last year was mainly because of this play. When they front KG in the post, Rondo would throw a perfect lob or he would pass it on the top of the key and then a quick lob to KG. They were able to abuse Miami down low just because of this single play. Having Joel Anthony as your tallest player didn't help either.
IIRC, this particular play was a little bit minimize to say the least when Bosh came back.

[Djahjaga]

I think any offensive style can win.

The point is that you have to be able to defend well in the half court to win in the playoffs. A lot of times that means having at least 1 big that can protect the paint and play great help side defense and still rebound.

But the Heat definitely play "small ball"...they just also play great defense mainly due to Wade and Lebron....and effort from role players.

This. People really get "didn't work" confused with "doesn't work." A lot of things can make or break a championship season.

A similar attitude is held for players around here. Do you really think a Charles Barkley led team can't ever win a title? Or Karl Malone for that matter? It's just circumstantial to say, "They didn't so they couldn't ever, under any circumstances."

Also, Miami won last year playing small-ball.