Kawhi Leonard or Gordon Hayward

[veilside23]

Both turns out to be the future franchise player.. actually both stepped up for their teams respectively.

Defensively people might give the edge to leonard but hayward isnt a bad defender.

Offense i give the edge to Hayward. can create his own shot . can pass the ball better..

I also saw a post somewhere saying that hayward is actually their leader already.

If you are building a team who would you go for to potentially be the 1st or
2nd option for your team ?

[Sakkreth]

Both turns out to be the future franchise player.. actually both stepped up for their teams respectively.

Defensively people might give the edge to leonard but hayward isnt a bad defender.

Offense i give the edge to Hayward. can create his own shot . can pass the ball better..

I also saw a post somewhere saying that hayward is actually their leader already.

If you are building a team who would you go for to potentially be the 1st or
2nd option for your team ?

As first or second option those are pretty much needed, so easily Hayward.

[miles berg]

I'd be thrilled with either instead of Jae Crowder (whom I like alot as the backup SF long term, just not as Marion's replacement in 2014/15.

Both are nice #3 type players, need to be paired with two stars though.

[Xiao Yao You]

Both turns out to be the future franchise player.. actually both stepped up for their teams respectively.

Defensively people might give the edge to leonard but hayward isnt a bad defender.

Offense i give the edge to Hayward. can create his own shot . can pass the ball better..

I also saw a post somewhere saying that hayward is actually their leader already.

If you are building a team who would you go for to potentially be the 1st or
2nd option for your team ?

They told him after the year that they want him to step up as a vocal leader next year. Ideally they'll be running the offense through him more and he can shoot the ball consistently. Has yet to put it all together for a full season. Finished strong every year. Got to the line more last year.


I'd be thrilled with either instead of Jae Crowder (whom I like alot as the backup SF long term, just not as Marion's replacement in 2014/15.

That's the worry now. Getting him and Favors signed for a good price and not Batum/Hibbert type deals. I'd guess they'll get Hayward taking care of this season.


Both are nice #3 type players, need to be paired with two stars though.

As far as their young guys go I could see him being the #3 scorer behind Kanter and Burks. Hayward does a bit of everything.

[SCdac]

If my team had more of an offensive identity and needed a three guy, I might take Hayward.

If my team had more of a defensive identity and I needed a Shawn Marion type do-it-all player who can rebound well, I'd take Leonard.

I don't think either player will win a championship if they're a first or second option, but who knows. Would like to see Hayward be more consistent from game to game (sometimes he seems invisible), and I'd like to see Leonard continue to have more plays run for him and surpass Manu as a third option.

[veilside23]

i am happy to see that we dont have a homer pick yet ...

:)

both are equally good

to me i would pick hayward because i guess i can rely on him to take the last possession/shot

[RichieW]

Too early in either of thier careers to say whether they can or can't by a #1 option. Unlikely, but you never know.

[veilside23]

bump ...

[Done_And_Done]

The current finals MVP for me.

I really like what Hayward brings to the table but Kawhi is my dude...

[chocolatethunder]

Hayward took the most shots of his career this year and shot 41% over all and 30% from three. That's not a good sign. I like him but if he's gonna get paid he's going to need to shoot better like he was before. At this point I'd take Leonard although both are works in progress.

[Im so nba'd out]

the black one
but im not racist doe :pimp:

[veilside23]

The current finals MVP for me.

I really like what Hayward brings to the table but Kawhi is my dude...


so you think with hayward on the spurs team he cant score 20 ppg? and play good defense? just an honest question no BS

[KNOW1EDGE]

I prefer Leonard because I feel he is more well-rounded and has a greater impact on games.

Hayward is a decent offensive player but doesn't do much else to help his team win. He also plays for the Jazz, and his numbers are bloated due to this.

[SCdac]

If my team had more of an offensive identity and needed a three guy, I might take Hayward.

If my team had more of a defensive identity and I needed a Shawn Marion type do-it-all player who can rebound well, I'd take Leonard.

I don't think either player will win a championship if they're a first or second option, but who knows. Would like to see Hayward be more consistent from game to game (sometimes he seems invisible), and I'd like to see Leonard continue to have more plays run for him and surpass Manu as a third option.

After this last season, I'm leaning toward Kawhi even more

and it's not all about offense vs. offense (even though Kawhi is underrated in this respect)

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-f8ExQqwWwDo/U4qdtsS-rtI/AAAAAAAAHKc/nKeyNW-NUvQ/s1600/3.gif

How many players can do this, almost as an impulse? let alone with their off hand

[Rekindled]

leonard is more of a system player on offense.

hayward is much better on offense can create his own offense and play point forward.

leonard obviously much better on D.

[chocolatethunder]

I prefer Leonard because I feel he is more well-rounded and has a greater impact on games.

Hayward is a decent offensive player but doesn't do much else to help his team win. He also plays for the Jazz, and his numbers are bloated due to this.
Bloated? The Jazz had six dudes averaging double figures. Hayward led them with 16ppg but only averaged 2pts more than Burks. So no, his numbers aren't inflated.

[Done_And_Done]

so you think with hayward on the spurs team he cant score 20 ppg? and play good defense? just an honest question no BS

Over the course of a 7 game series, I think Hayward could certainly put up considerable numbers. Additionally, Im certain the Spurs system compliments his style of play quite well and vice versa.

But at this precise moment in time, Kawhi is just the better all around player and easily the more athletic of the two. Once again, not a knock against Gordan, because he's an excellent talent in his own right. I just don't see how anyone would possibly consider thinking he's the superior basketball player at this point.

[Done_And_Done]

After this last season, I'm leaning toward Kawhi even more

and it's not all about offense vs. offense (even though Kawhi is underrated in this respect)

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-f8ExQqwWwDo/U4qdtsS-rtI/AAAAAAAAHKc/nKeyNW-NUvQ/s1600/3.gif

How many players can do this, almost as an impulse? let alone with their off hand

And that's just one of maaaaany throughout the course of last season. The guy makes a tangible difference on the defensive end...

[bizil]

If I had to draw a parallel to past players, I think Kawhi is more in that potential Shawn Marion mode while Babyface is more in that Mike Miller or potential smaller version of Detlef mode. So if I was to pick between a Shawn Marion or Detlef Schrempf, I think Detlef peaked higher. Mainly due to having point forward skills and being very good all around in general. But defensively and rebounding wise Leonard has the edge and is one of the most freakish athletes in the L. I think scoring wise Hayward has the more complete scoring skillset. But like Marion, I think Leonard can get to 22 points a night just by hitting the glass, transition, cutting to the rack, and hitting open jumpers.

It might actually depend on what the team needs. Both are very good all around players, but in different ways. Hayward can play SG or SF and fufill point forward kind of duties. Leonard can play SF or PF as well as defend four positions. Bron, Durant, Melo, and George are clearly the top SF's in the world. And Pierce is of course a legend and I still feel capable of huge shit at times. But after that, u could rank Hayward, Leonard, Iggy, Gay, Parsons, and Deng in various way.

[KNOW1EDGE]

Bloated? The Jazz had six dudes averaging double figures. Hayward led them with 16ppg but only averaged 2pts more than Burks. So no, his numbers aren't inflated.

Bloated. Hayward was the number 1 option on a very bad Jazz team that gave him the green light to shoot it and be very agressive offensively.

Put him on a contending team where he is the 3rd or 4th option as he should be, and he is most certainly not putting up the same numbers.

Now, if you wanna trade him to another horrible team and make him the focal point of your offense and your #1 option im sure he would put up similar numbers but what is the point? Theres lots of role players in the NBA who if made a number 1 option and given the green light could put up very similar numbers to Gordan Hayward.

[r0drig0lac]

clearly Kawhi, unless your name is LeBron or Durant

[chocolatethunder]

Bloated. Hayward was the number 1 option on a very bad Jazz team that gave him the green light to shoot it and be very agressive offensively.

Put him on a contending team where he is the 3rd or 4th option as he should be, and he is most certainly not putting up the same numbers.

Now, if you wanna trade him to another horrible team and make him the focal point of your offense and your #1 option im sure he would put up similar numbers but what is the point? Theres lots of role players in the NBA who if made a number 1 option and given the green light could put up very similar numbers to Gordan Hayward.
Actually he'd put up similar numbers if his shooting was as good as previous years.

[Meticode]

Why is this even a thread? :oldlol:

Leonard just one FMVP with Tim Duncan, Tony Parker and Manu Ginobli on his team. He's a great system player on offense, and is an awesome defensive player with great instincts.

Gordon Hayward is at best a second option on a good team, probably more like a third option.

[TheGreatDeraj]

Leonard by far. Leonard is very skilled offensively and one of the best defensive players in the NBA.

[KNOW1EDGE]

Actually he'd put up similar numbers if his shooting was as good as previous years.

I wouldnt imagine him getting worse as a player if he was on another team.

But if hes a 3rd or 4th option compared to a number 1 option he is going to get less opportunities which equals a reduction in numbers without question.

Hes not going to get as many shot attempts being a 4th option, therefore he is not going to score as many points. It just depends on how a team wants to use him. IMO he is best suited as a 3rd or 4th option on a championship caliber team. Nothing wrong with that, it just is what it is

[chocolatethunder]

I wouldnt imagine him getting worse as a player if he was on another team.

But if hes a 3rd or 4th option compared to a number 1 option he is going to get less opportunities which equals a reduction in numbers without question.

Hes not going to get as many shot attempts being a 4th option, therefore he is not going to score as many points. It just depends on how a team wants to use him. IMO he is best suited as a 3rd or 4th option on a championship caliber team. Nothing wrong with that, it just is what it is
I agree. That dude's not a first option on any team which would explain his poor shooting this year. He's shooting 13.4 shots a game and Trey Burke is shooting 12.8, I don't think that his numbers are inflated because he's just barely shooting the most on his team by less than one shot a game. If he went to a better team he'd be shooting less maybe but getting better shots so he would be averaging close to the same.

[steve]

Bloated. Hayward was the number 1 option on a very bad Jazz team that gave him the green light to shoot it and be very agressive offensively.

They gave him the green light because he was literally the only Jazz player who could create anything.

People make these arguments under such specious reasoning. Personally I'd take Leonard going forward but to dismiss Hayward as anything but a potentially great player is just ignorance.

They aren't even in remotely the same positions. To highlight those differences would just be a fool's errand for anyone even vaguely paying attention.

If you want to compare these to, you have to remove yourself from the context of team because that greatly encapsulates both players to a significant degree.

[KNOW1EDGE]

I agree. That dude's not a first option on any team which would explain his poor shooting this year. He's shooting 13.4 shots a game and Trey Burke is shooting 12.8, I don't think that his numbers are inflated because he's just barely shooting the most on his team by less than one shot a game. If he went to a better team he'd be shooting less maybe but getting better shots so he would be averaging close to the same.


Both very good points that i did not take into consideration. Very true :cheers:

[Xiao Yao You]

After this last season, I'm leaning toward Kawhi even more

and it's not all about offense vs. offense (even though Kawhi is underrated in this respect)

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-f8ExQqwWwDo/U4qdtsS-rtI/AAAAAAAAHKc/nKeyNW-NUvQ/s1600/3.gif

How many players can do this, almost as an impulse? let alone with their off hand

Hayward has chased many guys down for blocks.

[chocolatethunder]

[/B]

Both very good points that i did not take into consideration. Very true :cheers:
Cheers.

[turnaroundJ]

He's black so he's more athletic, right...

Hayward is clearly more athletic. But Leonard doesn't need as much athleticism as him because of his INSANE length and hands.

Anyway, I think Kawaii has a slightly higher peak but I don't think he can stuff the stat sheet as much as Hayward could. Unless he's finally given the keys to the Spurs.

[hawksdogsbraves]

I've talked shit about Leonard in the past but I'd absolutely take him over Hayward.

Hayward can be a point forward better than Kawhi, but he's still not all that good at that. Kawhi is a better defender, better shooter.

Hayward hasn't proven anything and hasn't done anything in his career to deserve the hype he gets.

[SCdac]

Hayward has chased many guys down for blocks.

In the WCF against westbrook in overtime though? lol

While I don't deny that Hayward has blocked shots in transition, can we really question the defensive disparity between the two .. and also can we really call that kawhi block a "chase down" block in the vain of tayshaun on reggie miller? we're talking semantics, but it's much different than kawhi's imo. Kawhi's guarding jackson in transition, with his great defensive instincts spins in a split second to guard westbrook and manages to get all ball, AND the ball back . Beast of a defensive move and clutch

[blacknapalm]

shooting/scoring - kawhi (might not see it now but i think he can create for himself slightly better. he's also more than a full year younger and i see his peak being better. hayward is still wildy inconsistent shooting wise)

rebounding - kawhi

passing - hayward (he's simply one of the best passing SF's in the league, prob in my top 3)

defense - kawhi (not much of an argument here)

overall, it's rather easily kawhi. i see kawhi being a multiple time all star and hayward might sniff it once

[unbreakable]

WOW someone compared Kawhi to Marion??...

Yea maybe if Marion had a shot like LARRY BIRD and strength/tenacity of RON ARTEST

Kawhis shot is beautiful and clutch... been trained by MASTER SHOOTING COACH Chip from the Spurs,,kawhi shot 60% from FG and 50% from 3pt in the FINALS! against the best defender in the league!!

kawhi is a hybrid of scottie pippen and larry bird without the amazing passing (tho kawhi is an above average passer)

ill take kawhi over paul george, lance stephenson, and even durant, depending on the build of the team.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

WOW someone compared Kawhi to Marion??...

Yea maybe if Marion had a shot like LARRY BIRD...

Kawhis shot is beautiful and clutch... been trained by MASTER SHOOTING COACH Chip from the Spurs,,kawhi shot 60% from FG and 50% from 3pt in the FINALS! against the best defender in the league!!

kawhi is a hybrid of scottie pippen and larry bird without the amazing passing (tho kawhi is a above average passer)
:biggums:


Anyways, it's Kawhi by a mile.

[Im so nba'd out]

Anyone who picks hayward just wants to argue.No sane person would pick someone who looked lost as a 1st option over a finals mvp

[Anaximandro1]

Kawhi is the difference between a first-round exit and a championship.

the system didn't work in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 .... the system still doesn't work without Kawhi.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-VuBTqZBtRg0/U7aH9DjU9iI/AAAAAAAADL0/Bz2Et69rCh8/s1600/1.jpg

Kawhi wasn't ready in 2011 ... the Spurs have have been incredibly fortunate to find a stoic gym rat who absorbs things very quickly.

[masonanddixon]

Amazing how overrated Leonard has become--dude would be absolute trash on Utah.

[Lebron23]

Amazing how overrated Leonard has become--dude would be absolute trash on Utah.


I think he's overrated, but he's better than Gordon Hayward.

[ILLsmak]

Why is this even a thread? :oldlol:

Leonard just one FMVP with Tim Duncan, Tony Parker and Manu Ginobli on his team. He's a great system player on offense, and is an awesome defensive player with great instincts.

Gordon Hayward is at best a second option on a good team, probably more like a third option.

While Hayward once again failed to bring a championship to Utah lol.

-Smak

[masonanddixon]

I think he's overrated, but he's better than Gordon Hayward.

No he's not. Hayward is better than him at everything in the game of basketball. Leonard is like a Trevor Ariza level player who would be massively exposed if he ever left San Antonio.

[JohnMax]

Kawhi is the reason Bran is holding Miami hostage in free agency

[Lebron23]

Kawhi is the reason Bran is holding Miami hostage in free agency


17.8 ppg. I think he's the lowest scoring finals MVP in the modern era.

Lebron averaged 28.6 ppg in the nba finals. Leonard is a solid role player for the spurs, but it was the spurs defense and balance scoring that prevailed against the Heat.

PS

and please stop trolling, I know it hurts that he destroyed your Bulls in the playoffs since 2009.

[veilside23]

i cant believe how winning a finals mvp simply puts a player clearly over 1 player.

I wont be surprised if people would actually put leonard over Paul george simply because he is the FVMP.

I know leonard performed well ...

Am just wondering though if leonard is on utah and hayward is on the spurs .. do you seriously think leonard can carry that team ?

[Lebron23]

i cant believe how winning a finals mvp simply puts a player clearly over 1 player.

I wont be surprised if people would actually put leonard over Paul george simply because he is the FVMP.

I know leonard performed well ...

Am just wondering though if leonard is on utah and hayward is on the spurs .. do you seriously think leonard can carry that team ?


Hell No.

Kawhi Leonard is like an NBA version of Mark Pingris. Both are solid role players who greatly benefited while playing under a great system.

[Artillery]

Am just wondering though if leonard is on utah and hayward is on the spurs .. do you seriously think leonard can carry that team ?

Spurs aren't winning a championship if you replace Leonard with Hayward though. Gordon's defense isn't very good.

[KNOW1EDGE]

What is Hayward better than Leonard at? Nothing.

Finals MVP or number one option on one of the worst teams in the NBA?

It doesn't matter what the names are, I will always choose a guy who was the finals MVP over a guy who couldn't get his team into the playoffs

[yeaaaman]

What is Hayward better than Leonard at? Nothing.

Finals MVP or number one option on one of the worst teams in the NBA?

It doesn't matter what the names are, I will always choose a guy who was the finals MVP over a guy who couldn't get his team into the playoffs

Do you choose Leonard over Kevin Love and Carmelo Anthony?

[Done_And_Done]

Amazing how overrated Leonard has become--dude would be absolute trash on Utah.

So do snort or inject?

[Posterized]

Kawhi (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gptiz36HLlQ&list=LLnHl1d_Z3HLqODeun1fFYXQ&index=2)

[Sakkreth]

Switch teams for them... yes Hayward is better.

[Im so nba'd out]

No he's not. Hayward is better than him at everything in the game of basketball. Leonard is like a Trevor Ariza level player who would be massively exposed if he ever left San Antonio.
Pass the needle bro i want to shoot up too

[KNOW1EDGE]

Do you choose Leonard over Kevin Love and Carmelo Anthony?

Heading into next season I would rather have the Finals MVP over any player from any non-playoff team.

[Artillery]

Switch teams for them... yes Hayward is better.

Here's what happens when they switch teams:

Utah is still a lottery team with Leonard.

SA doesn't win the championship with Hayward.

[SCdac]

Kawhi is the difference between a first-round exit and a championship.

the system didn't work in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 .... the system still doesn't work without Kawhi.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-VuBTqZBtRg0/U7aH9DjU9iI/AAAAAAAADL0/Bz2Et69rCh8/s1600/1.jpg

Kawhi wasn't ready in 2011 ... the Spurs have have been incredibly fortunate to find a stoic gym rat who absorbs things very quickly.

This.

Spurs for a minute were trying to win with Richard Jefferson, but he disappeared in the playoffs and was not an elite defensive player. In the losses to the Suns (10) and Memphis (11), RJ was just horrible.

Kawhi has the exact opposite effect. When he came back from injury last season, Spurs went on a 19 game win streak. When he plays like a #1 or #2 option, whether it's for a single quarter or a stretch of games, the Spurs seem to be unbeatable the last 2-3 years.

and his defense has players shook :lol

http://tuesdayswithhorry.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/lebronkawhi.gif

[Im so nba'd out]

Well since i know one of them cant lead a team to even a 500 record ill take kawhi.I seen one as the man and its awful mine as well go with the one i never seen as the #1 option

[mrpibb]

Well since i know one of them cant lead a team to even a 500 record ill take kawhi.I seen one as the man and its awful mine as well go with the one i never seen as the #1 option

What a terrible bump.

[masonanddixon]

Hayward is the better player. Leonard has the better team.

[Bigsmoke]

Kawhi.

U can argue about Gordon Hayward being a better #1 option all u want your team is a lottery team if that's the case:oldlol:

[bizil]

I would say Leonard as of now. Leonard is STILL playing with three HOFers. Scoring wise, u can tell he's still deferring to those guys. Looking at Leonard's game, will he be in the Shawn Marion-Billy Cunnigham kind of mode. U know good for 23 a night, 9-10 boards, and epic defensive versatility from the SF spot. Or will his offensive game evolve more into an alpha dog to go with his great rebounding and defensive versatility? Billy C is in the HOF and I think Marion could eventually get in. But if he turns into an alpha once the time in needed, Leonard is the easy choice.

But as of now, Babyface is the better scorer and has a very good scoring skillset. He also has point forward kind of ability too. But Babyface isn't DOMINANT SCORING ENOUGH for me to take him ahead of Leonard. Each of these guys are clearly among the top 10 SF's in the world. Their games are totally different, but yet they are versatile in their own ways. Hayward as the offensive versatility edge in terms of fundamentals. But Leonard is a freak athlete from the SF spot who has tremendous two way potential.

[Bless Mathews]

the black one
but im not racist doe :pimp:
:applause:

[Paul George 24]

I would say Leonard as of now. Leonard is STILL playing with three HOFers. Scoring wise, u can tell he's still deferring to those guys. Looking at Leonard's game, will he be in the Shawn Marion-Billy Cunnigham kind of mode. U know good for 23 a night, 9-10 boards, and epic defensive versatility from the SF spot. Or will his offensive game evolve more into an alpha dog to go with his great rebounding and defensive versatility? Billy C is in the HOF and I think Marion could eventually get in. But if he turns into an alpha once the time in needed, Leonard is the easy choice.

But as of now, Babyface is the better scorer and has a very good scoring skillset. He also has point forward kind of ability too. But Babyface isn't DOMINANT SCORING ENOUGH for me to take him ahead of Leonard. Each of these guys are clearly among the top 10 SF's in the world. Their games are totally different, but yet they are versatile in their own ways. Hayward as the offensive versatility edge in terms of fundamentals. But Leonard is a freak athlete from the SF spot who has tremendous two way potential.

leonard is pippen in the making without playmarking :applause:

[Tycriss]

Hayward is the better player. Leonard has the better team.

Really ? :roll: :roll: :roll: