A Comparison of Kobe and LeBron's Careers Without Superstar Help

[jzek]

Kobe:

* 2004-2005 | 34 - 48 record = missed the playoffs
* 2005-2006 | 45 - 37 record = lost in the first round
* 2006-2007 | 42 - 40 record = lost in the first round (after this season, Kobe publicly demanded to be traded (http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/3446/kobe-bryant-says-he-d-like-to-be-traded))


LeBron:

* 2003-2004 | 35 - 47 record = missed the playoffs
* 2004-2005 | 42 - 40 record = missed the playoffs
* 2005-2006 | 50 - 32 record = Lost NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals
* 2006-2007 | 50 - 32 record = Lost NBA Finals
* 2007-2008 | 45 - 37 record = Lost NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals
* 2008-2009 | 66 - 16 record = Lost NBA Eastern Conference Finals
* 2009-2010 | 61 - 21 record = Lost NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals


Conclusion: Without superstar help (i.e., Shaq or Gasol+Bynum [aka Twin Towers]), Kobe's career is nothing compared to LeBron's (LBJ won multiple MVP awards, too). Not to mention Kobe had Phil Jackson as a coach for many many many years whereas LeBron had Mike Brown in CLE.

[LongLiveTheKing]

Inb4 East sucked.

[KyleKong]

When Shaq got traded to the Heat Kobe went crazy selfish trying to justify the trade, winning 2 scoring titles but getting knocked off of the playoffs in the first round twice.

Kobe really wasted two prime years of his career trying to make himself the GOAT.

But once Gasol came around in 08 and the Lakers start being successful again people just praised Kobe and not Gasol.

[Ikill]

You can still have a good team without superstar help Lebron never had teams as bad the 05-07 Lakers.

[ripthekik]

East vs West?

Lebron gets to play raptors, bobcats, bucks etc 4 times a year. Not to mention the eastern playoffs is a joke. Even dwight was able to lead his team to the final from the east :facepalm

[fpliii]

Shouldn't you include 07-08 for Kobe? He only had Gasol for half the year, and Bynum for 35 (started 25, out for the playoffs).

[red1]

East vs West?

Lebron gets to play raptors, bobcats, bucks etc 4 times a year. Not to mention the eastern playoffs is a joke. Even dwight was able to lead his team to the final from the east :facepalm
2009 dwight would be the best player in the western conference this year. Rip, you are a bitter salty and retarded hoe

[TonyMontana]

East vs West?

Lebron gets to play raptors, bobcats, bucks etc 4 times a year. Not to mention the eastern playoffs is a joke. Even dwight was able to lead his team to the final from the east :facepalm

LeBron James splits vs East/West

http://oi42.tinypic.com/i1zfxu.jpg

Kobe Bryant splits vs East/West

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2s9ufd4.jpg

Both of these boys putting up HIGHER scoring on BETTER efficiency vs West teams as opposed to East teams. But wait we're not done yet.

LeBron James record vs West: 25-5(.833)
LeBron James record vs East: 41-11(.788)



LeBron with an even better winning percent vs the West?! This can't be with that stacked conference! But wait we're not done yet.

Beat Knicks in 5 games
Beat Pacers in 6 games
Beat Celtics in 7 games
Beat Thunder in 5 games

The Wests VERY BEST was good enough to take the Heat as far as their first round fodder oppenent did.

Now hurry up and make your post that consists of smileys and a one liner so everyone on the site can see how inept you are to argue basketball.

[jzek]

LeBron James splits vs East/West

http://oi42.tinypic.com/i1zfxu.jpg

Kobe Bryant splits vs East/West

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2s9ufd4.jpg

Both of these boys putting up HIGHER scoring on BETTER efficiency vs West teams as opposed to East teams. But wait we're not done yet.

LeBron James record vs West: 25-5(.833)
LeBron James record vs East: 41-11(.788)



LeBron with an even better winning percent vs the West?! This can't be with that stacked conference! But wait we're not done yet.

Beat Knicks in 5 games
Beat Pacers in 6 games
Beat Celtics in 7 games
Beat Thunder in 5 games

The Wests VERY BEST was good enough to take the Heat as far as their first round fodder oppenent did.

Now hurry up and make your post that consists of smileys and a one liner so everyone on the site can see how inept you are to argue basketball.

Damn, great post! I was about to type the same thing but thankfully hit 'Refresh' first and saw yours was better written!

Will rep when I can (I get "You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later."). :bowdown:

[LongLiveTheKing]

LeBron James splits vs East/West

http://oi42.tinypic.com/i1zfxu.jpg

Kobe Bryant splits vs East/West

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2s9ufd4.jpg

Both of these boys putting up HIGHER scoring on BETTER efficiency vs West teams as opposed to East teams. But wait we're not done yet.

LeBron James record vs West: 25-5(.833)
LeBron James record vs East: 41-11(.788)



LeBron with an even better winning percent vs the West?! This can't be with that stacked conference! But wait we're not done yet.

Beat Knicks in 5 games
Beat Pacers in 6 games
Beat Celtics in 7 games
Beat Thunder in 5 games

The Wests VERY BEST was good enough to take the Heat as far as their first round fodder oppenent did.

Now hurry up and make your post that consists of smileys and a one liner so everyone on the site can see how inept you are to argue basketball.
:applause:

[Nash]

ripthekik getting killed by some quality April 2013 posters these days.

[DonDadda59]

LeBron James splits vs East/West

http://oi42.tinypic.com/i1zfxu.jpg

Kobe Bryant splits vs East/West

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2s9ufd4.jpg

Both of these boys putting up HIGHER scoring on BETTER efficiency vs West teams as opposed to East teams. But wait we're not done yet.

LeBron James record vs West: 25-5(.833)
LeBron James record vs East: 41-11(.788)



LeBron with an even better winning percent vs the West?! This can't be with that stacked conference! But wait we're not done yet.

Beat Knicks in 5 games
Beat Pacers in 6 games
Beat Celtics in 7 games
Beat Thunder in 5 games

The Wests VERY BEST was good enough to take the Heat as far as their first round fodder oppenent did.

Now hurry up and make your post that consists of smileys and a one liner so everyone on the site can see how inept you are to argue basketball.

Facts are Bean stans' worst enemies. Repped :applause:

[alec613]

But but LeBron's team was built to compliment his skills, and they were playing in the east
Lakers just got scrubs for Kobe,

:confusedshrug:

[General]

The East is weak as fvck. You think the Heat would have survived in the West last year without Bosh for the second round? Hell nah, who you trying to fool with those cherry picked stats. They don't mean shit.

[fpliii]

Shouldn't you include 07-08 for Kobe? He only had Gasol for half the year, and Bynum for 35 (started 25, out for the playoffs).

I'm not one to quote myself, but how does this qualify as superstar help?

[longtime lurker]

LeBron James splits vs East/West

http://oi42.tinypic.com/i1zfxu.jpg

Kobe Bryant splits vs East/West

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2s9ufd4.jpg

Both of these boys putting up HIGHER scoring on BETTER efficiency vs West teams as opposed to East teams. But wait we're not done yet.

LeBron James record vs West: 25-5(.833)
LeBron James record vs East: 41-11(.788)



LeBron with an even better winning percent vs the West?! This can't be with that stacked conference! But wait we're not done yet.

Beat Knicks in 5 games
Beat Pacers in 6 games
Beat Celtics in 7 games
Beat Thunder in 5 games

The Wests VERY BEST was good enough to take the Heat as far as their first round fodder oppenent did.

Now hurry up and make your post that consists of smileys and a one liner so everyone on the site can see how inept you are to argue basketball.

Yawn

Still waiting for the Lakers to be better without Kobe ........

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Kobe won 5 rings with just one all star/HOF teammate per title team.

He hasn't had two all star teammates in 15 years. :confusedshrug:

[Magic 32]

LeBron James splits vs East/West

http://oi42.tinypic.com/i1zfxu.jpg

Kobe Bryant splits vs East/West

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2s9ufd4.jpg

Both of these boys putting up HIGHER scoring on BETTER efficiency vs West teams as opposed to East teams. But wait we're not done yet.

LeBron James record vs West: 25-5(.833)
LeBron James record vs East: 41-11(.788)



LeBron with an even better winning percent vs the West?! This can't be with that stacked conference! But wait we're not done yet.

Beat Knicks in 5 games
Beat Pacers in 6 games
Beat Celtics in 7 games
Beat Thunder in 5 games

The Wests VERY BEST was good enough to take the Heat as far as their first round fodder oppenent did.

Now hurry up and make your post that consists of smileys and a one liner so everyone on the site can see how inept you are to argue basketball.

We are talking about 05-07 for Kobe and 06-10 for Lebron.

YOU......I.....D......I.......O.......T.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

LeBron James splits vs East/West

http://oi42.tinypic.com/i1zfxu.jpg

Kobe Bryant splits vs East/West

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2s9ufd4.jpg

Both of these boys putting up HIGHER scoring on BETTER efficiency vs West teams as opposed to East teams. But wait we're not done yet.

LeBron James record vs West: 25-5(.833)
LeBron James record vs East: 41-11(.788)



LeBron with an even better winning percent vs the West?! This can't be with that stacked conference! But wait we're not done yet.

Beat Knicks in 5 games
Beat Pacers in 6 games
Beat Celtics in 7 games
Beat Thunder in 5 games

The Wests VERY BEST was good enough to take the Heat as far as their first round fodder oppenent did.

Now hurry up and make your post that consists of smileys and a one liner so everyone on the site can see how inept you are to argue basketball.

:applause:

[branslowski]

This makes sense because Gasol is definitely on Wades level, and Bosh could only dream of avg 18pts and 8reb...and Nvm that Big Z made an All-star game and has numbers close to Gasoft...:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[ShaqAttack3234]

I'm not one to quote myself, but how does this qualify as superstar help?

It doesn't, especially since Gasol back then was very good, but at best, top 15-20 range as a player to that point in his better seasons. Even Gasol at his absolute best in 2009 and 2010 is a stretch to call a superstar.

[KingBeasley08]

TonyMontana doing work again

[jzek]

This makes sense because Gasol is definitely on Wades level, and Bosh could only dream of avg 18pts and 8reb...and Nvm that Big Z made an All-star game and has numbers close to Gasoft...:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Gasol is considered a superstar when he joined Kobe and won a title. He was MEM's franchise player and one of the best international players at the time.

Nobody in LBJ's CLE days was considered a superstar. Big Z and Mo made one (or two) all-star appearances but they were never the franchise players like Gasol was in MEM.

[ripthekik]

LeBron James splits vs East/West

http://oi42.tinypic.com/i1zfxu.jpg

Kobe Bryant splits vs East/West

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2s9ufd4.jpg

Both of these boys putting up HIGHER scoring on BETTER efficiency vs West teams as opposed to East teams. But wait we're not done yet.

LeBron James record vs West: 25-5(.833)
LeBron James record vs East: 41-11(.788)



LeBron with an even better winning percent vs the West?! This can't be with that stacked conference! But wait we're not done yet.

Beat Knicks in 5 games
Beat Pacers in 6 games
Beat Celtics in 7 games
Beat Thunder in 5 games

The Wests VERY BEST was good enough to take the Heat as far as their first round fodder oppenent did.

Now hurry up and make your post that consists of smileys and a one liner so everyone on the site can see how inept you are to argue basketball.
LMAO, and all the heat fans that agree with this post are IDIOTS.

This is the record with Miami this year no?
With the help of Wade and Bosh and a stacked team no?

Is that what this topic is discussing?

and all the heat fans... wow.. the stupidity hahahahah
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Robalvarez2010]

Kobe:

* 2004-2005 | 34 - 48 record = missed the playoffs
* 2005-2006 | 45 - 37 record = lost in the first round
* 2006-2007 | 42 - 40 record = lost in the first round (after this season, Kobe publicly demanded to be traded (http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/3446/kobe-bryant-says-he-d-like-to-be-traded))


LeBron:

* 2003-2004 | 35 - 47 record = missed the playoffs
* 2004-2005 | 42 - 40 record = missed the playoffs
* 2005-2006 | 50 - 32 record = Lost NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals
* 2006-2007 | 50 - 32 record = Lost NBA Finals
* 2007-2008 | 45 - 37 record = Lost NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals
* 2008-2009 | 66 - 16 record = Lost NBA Eastern Conference Finals
* 2009-2010 | 61 - 21 record = Lost NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals


Conclusion: Without superstar help (i.e., Shaq or Gasol+Bynum [aka Twin Towers]), Kobe's career is nothing compared to LeBron's (LBJ won multiple MVP awards, too). Not to mention Kobe had Phil Jackson as a coach for many many many years whereas LeBron had Mike Brown in CLE.

I honestly couldn't have written this better myself. Great post!

[ripthekik]

i still can't believe how dumb the heat fans are agreeing with this montana guy :roll: :roll: :roll:

the title of the thread is lebron and kobe careers without superstar help, then this guy goes and quote the records of lebron's team with wade and bosh, and in the playoffs last year

:roll: :roll: :roll:

yo heat fans.. you all really dumb as rocks man :oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Gasol is considered a superstar when he joined Kobe and won a title. He was MEM's franchise player and one of the best international players at the time.

Nobody in LBJ's CLE days was considered a superstar. Big Z and Mo made one (or two) all-star appearances but they were never the franchise players like Gasol was in MEM.

:oldlol:

That's why he was on the trading block for years and had worn out his welcome in Memphis. If Gasol is a superstar, then so is Bosh and Wade AND Bosh > Gasol. :confusedshrug:

[KingBeasley08]

i still can't believe how dumb the heat fans are agreeing with this montana guy :roll: :roll: :roll:

the title of the thread is lebron and kobe careers without superstar help, then this guy goes and quote the records of lebron's team with wade and bosh, and in the playoffs last year

:roll: :roll: :roll:

yo heat fans.. you all really dumb as rocks man :oldlol:
No, he just denounced that whole west > east crap :lol

[ripthekik]

Damn, great post! I was about to type the same thing but thankfully hit 'Refresh' first and saw yours was better written!

Will rep when I can (I get "You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later."). :bowdown:

:applause:

ripthekik getting killed by some quality April 2013 posters these days.

Facts are Bean stans' worst enemies. Repped :applause:

:applause:

TonyMontana doing work again
and all these guys above are all dumbass sheeps that can't even read the thread title :roll: :roll: :roll:

this guy gets it:

We are talking about 05-07 for Kobe and 06-10 for Lebron.

YOU......I.....D......I.......O.......T.

[Heavincent]

Kobe didn't have superstar help in 09 and 10 :confusedshrug:

[ripthekik]

No, he just denounced that whole west > east crap :lol
we talking about this year? for what reason?
we talking about the past when lebron was on the cavs, how he got to the finals so easily

:roll: :roll: :roll:

heat fans continue to look like dumbass kids :oldlol:

[KingBeasley08]

we talking about this year? for what reason?
we talking about the past when lebron was on the cavs, how he got to the finals so easily

:roll: :roll: :roll:

heat fans continue to look like dumbass kids :oldlol:
No his response was to someone who was talking about the East and West without specification. chang's mad :lol

[ripthekik]

No his response was to someone who was talking about the East and West without specification. chang's mad :lol
lmao, it's all within the context of this thread. Saying west>east in this thread definitely is talking about the years Lebron didn't have star help. Heat fans just showed their stupidity in this entire thread. :applause: :applause:

well i'm not surprised since they're usually teenagers like you who aren't even done with high school.. but yall must be dumbest fan base... or bandwagoners

[Trollsmasher]

ripthekik is getting it hard:roll:

His meltdown is slow and tasteful:lol


08-09 for example

LeBron was 26-4 against the West. That is even better than this year:lol I really doubt Kobe ever had so good record against the East.

[KingBeasley08]

ripthekik is getting it hard:roll:

His meltdown is slow and tasteful:lol


08-09 for example

LeBron was 26-4 against the West. That is even better than this year:lol I really doubt Kobe ever had so good record against the East.
good find :applause:

[jzek]

If Gasol is a superstar, then so is Bosh and Wade AND Bosh > Gasol. :confusedshrug:

But this whole thread is not about LBJ with MIA. It's about LBJ having much more success without superstar help (like Bosh and Wade) than Kobe without any superstar teammate as well.

[KingBeasley08]

lmao, it's all within the context of this thread. Saying west>east in this thread definitely is talking about the years Lebron didn't have star help. Heat fans just showed their stupidity in this entire thread. :applause: :applause:

well i'm not surprised since they're usually teenagers like you who aren't even done with high school.. but yall must be dumbest fan base... or bandwagoners
Chill out Chang. You argue with youngins on message board half your age and you act like you got a high ground :coleman:

[red1]

ripthekik getting absolutely ethered in this thread

[konex]

Kobe won 2 chips with Gasol and Odom as the next best players and they are hardly "superstars" (Bynum was not much of a factor in either of those title runs)

[ripthekik]

But this whole post is not about LBJ with MIA. It's about LBJ in CLE and Kobe without Shaq or Gasol+Bynum Towers
so why did you quote some guy and wanted to rep him for spewing out Lebron/Wade/Bosh's record against the West and their playoff run last year?
:oldlol:

[ripthekik]

ripthekik getting absolutely ethered in this thread
sad i didn't mention your name in the post above?
maybe if you learned to read.. oh why do i bother, you're just another dumbass sheep that agrees with the other lebron lovers :oldlol:

[Robalvarez2010]

i still can't believe how dumb the heat fans are agreeing with this montana guy :roll: :roll: :roll:

the title of the thread is lebron and kobe careers without superstar help, then this guy goes and quote the records of lebron's team with wade and bosh, and in the playoffs last year

:roll: :roll: :roll:

yo heat fans.. you all really dumb as rocks man :oldlol:

The only dumb ass here is you! You have your head so far up Kobe ass to realize that lebron has had a overall better career then your little precious Kobe!
K, let's forget about the years that lebron has played with the heat, and just focus his time with Cleveland. The stats don't lie.

[red1]

sad i didn't mention your name in the post above?
maybe if you learned to read.. oh why do i bother, you're just another dumbass sheep that agrees with the other lebron lovers :oldlol:
When are you ever not being humiliated? April 2013 spankin dat ass, almost starting to feel sorry for you

[ripthekik]

The only dumb ass here is you! You have your head so far up Kobe ass to realize that lebron has had a overall better career then your little precious Kobe!
K, let's forget about the years that lebron has played with the heat, and just focus his time with Cleveland. The stats don't lie.
Do you know what just happened there basically? :oldlol:

In a thread titled "A comparison of Kobe and Lebron without Superstar"

I said: "Lebron only had success because he was in the east. even dwight was able to take his team to the finals"

then montanaretard made a huge post thinking he hit a jackpot while quoting Heat's record with Wade/Bosh against the West, and putting in Bold Heat's playoff runs last year :oldlol:

then all the fellow retarded heat fans like red1 clapped like sheep
:roll: :roll: :roll:

this thread summed up heat fans perfectly.

[jzek]

so why did you quote some guy and wanted to rep him for spewing out Lebron/Wade/Bosh's record against the West and their playoff run last year?
:oldlol:

Then how do you explain these?:

* http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8505100&postcount=34
* http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8505160&postcount=44


That was LBJ beasting on the supposedly tougher Western conference teams... and those were without Wade+Bosh. :confusedshrug:

[Trollsmasher]

09-10
LeBron against the west - 22-7 (still good 76%, better than record against the East)

Damn West was and still is weak

I can see ripthekik screaming his little asian lungs out in anger right now:lol

[jzek]

Kobe won 2 chips with Gasol and Odom as the next best players and they are hardly "superstars" (Bynum was not much of a factor in either of those title runs)

Gasol is going to the Hall of Fame. That alone makes him a superstar.

Who in LBJ's CLE days is going to the HoF?

[red1]

Do you know what just happened there basically? :oldlol:

In a thread titled "A comparison of Kobe and Lebron without Superstar"

I said: "Lebron only had success because he was in the east. even dwight was able to take his team to the finals"

then montanaretard made a huge post thinking he hit a jackpot while quoting Heat's record with Wade/Bosh against the West, and putting in Bold Heat's playoff runs last year :oldlol:

then all the fellow retarded heat fans like red1 clapped like sheep
:roll: :roll: :roll:

this thread summed up heat fans perfectly.
LoL at this delusional dimwit. Everyone takes turns clowning this hoe

[razzredazzre]

Inb4 East sucked.

rep

[Heavincent]

Gasol is considered a superstar when he joined Kobe and won a title. He was MEM's franchise player and one of the best international players at the time.

Nobody in LBJ's CLE days was considered a superstar. Big Z and Mo made one (or two) all-star appearances but they were never the franchise players like Gasol was in MEM.

No...he wasn't a superstar. He was a great, borderline top 10 player at the time, but wasn't a superstar, unless you have an incredibly broad definition of the word "superstar".

And lol at people mentioning Byum as evidence for the Lakers being some super stacked team. He was nothing more than a decent role player in those years. What did he average, like 6/4 or something? :oldlol:

[jzek]

No...he wasn't a superstar. He was a great, borderline top 10 player at the time, but wasn't a superstar, unless you have an incredibly broad definition of the word "superstar".

Pau is going to the Hall of Fame. You can't be just a good player and go to the Hall of Fame. It's called Hall of FAME for a reason!

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Lebron is better than Kobe. What a revelation! :eek:

[STATUTORY]

Pau is going to the Hall of Fame. You can't be just a good player and go to the Hall of Fame. It's called Hall of FAME for a reason!
there's affirmative action in the basketball HOF for euro players, their international career embelish their candidacy

if Gasol was just ur regular brother he would be likely HOFer as zach randolph

[Heavincent]

Pau is going to the Hall of Fame. You can't be just a good player and go to the Hall of Fame. It's called Hall of FAME for a reason!

If Pau is a HOFer, than Bosh is too. So in that case...

Rings with just 1 superstar:

Kobe - 5
Lebron - 0

[Magic 32]

09-10
LeBron against the west - 22-7 (still good 76%, better than record against the East)

Damn West was and still is weak

now:lol

Yes. The Spurs lost to the Lakers a few days ago (in the regular season), so obviously the Lakers will beat them in the first round, right?

Could it be that the quality of a confrence is measured by the number of teams that can slow the game down in the playoffs, adjust "game to game" and wear you down with quality bigs?

Lebron had back-to-back 60 win seasons and then lost to the first "western conrefrenceesque" team he bumped in to.

But "stat" away stans.....:sleeping

[Yao Ming's Foot]

But this whole thread is not about LBJ with MIA. It's about LBJ having much more success without superstar help (like Bosh and Wade) than Kobe without any superstar teammate as well.

Gasol isn't a superstar. If he is, then so is Bosh. If that's the case Lebron actual accomplishments are asterixed by having two superstar teammates compared to Kobe having just one en route to 5 championships. :confusedshrug:

[jzek]

If Pau is a HOFer, than Bosh is too. So in that case...

Rings with just 1 superstar:

Kobe - 2
Lebron - 0

No, Bosh at this point isn't going to the HoF. I can't predict what will happen to his career but as of Apr 27, 2013, Bosh is not a HoF player. He might even be in the list of candidates if he were to retire today.

On the other hand, Pau could retire right now and he would still be in the HoF when his name comes up as a candidate.

And, again, you can't be in the HoF unless you're AT LEAST a superstar. Because otherwise that would defeat the very definiton of Hall of Fame. It would be called Hall of Mediocracy then.

[jzek]

Gasol isn't a superstar.

For the 11ty time, Gasol is going to the Hall of Fame. You can't be a mediocre player and go to the Hall of Fame. It's called Hall of Fame for a reason, not Hall of Mediocracy.

[Trollsmasher]

Yes. The Spurs lost to the Lakers a few days ago (in the regular season), so obviously the Lakers will beat them in the first round, right?

Could it be that the quality of a confrence is measured by the number of teams that can slow the game down in the playoffs, adjust "game to game" and wear you down with quality bigs?

Lebron had back-to-back 60 win season and then lost to the first "western conrefrenceesque" team he bumped in to.

But "stat" away stans.....:sleeping
None of your points make any kind of sense:lol It must be weird to think like a Lakers fan:hammerhead:

[jzek]

Gasol isn't a superstar. If he is, then so is Bosh. If that's the case Lebron actual accomplishments are asterixed by having two superstar teammates compared to Kobe having just one en route to 5 championships. :confusedshrug:

Also, again, we're not talking about LBJ with MIA. We're talking about LBJ in his CLE days and Kobe without HoF teammates.

Please stop bringing up Bosh or Wade because they were never with LBJ in CLE.

[Deuce Bigalow]

06 Suns = better than any team Lebron faced in 06
07 Suns = better than any team Lebron beat in 07

:sleeping

[Yao Ming's Foot]

For the 11ty time, Gasol is going to the Hall of Fame. You can't be a mediocre player and go to the Hall of Fame. It's called Hall of Fame, not Hall of Mediocracy.

There is quite a gap between mediocre and superstar. Its not called the Hall of Superstars either.


Bosh is a likely HOFer. 88% chance as of right now* That also doesn't factor in his quality contributions to the Redeem Team.
*
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob.html?redir

The likelihood of him making the HOF will only go up if the Heat win more titles. :confusedshrug:

[ripthekik]

For the 11ty time, Gasol is going to the Hall of Fame. You can't be a mediocre player and go to the Hall of Fame. It's called Hall of Fame for a reason, not Hall of Mediocracy.
Sorry, but Gasol being in the hall of fame is mostly based on his international play. Everything else, Bosh equals him. They've each led their own teams, but done jack until they found kobe/lebron.

Bosh definitely = Gasol.

[Heavincent]

No, Bosh at this point isn't going to the HoF. I can't predict what will happen to his career but as of Apr 27, 2013, Bosh is not a HoF player. He might even be in the list of candidates if he were to retire today.

On the other hand, Pau could retire right now and he would still be in the HoF when his name comes up as a candidate.

And, again, you can't be in the HoF unless you're AT LEAST a superstar. Because otherwise that would defeat the very definiton of Hall of Fame. It would be called Hall of Mediocracy then.

What makes Pau's career better than Bosh's?

[ripthekik]

None of your points make any kind of sense:lol It must be weird to think like a Lakers fan:hammerhead:
lol.. he put it quite clear and concise. Those "stats" don't mean jack. But not surprised a teenager heat fan like you can't read or comprehend a few sentences. Typical april 2013 trash.

[BBallZen83]

Gasol was without a doubt an superstar player during the 2-peat. He was the most skilled, finesse big man in the league. Much better help than lebron ever had at cleveland. Why is this a discussion? You gonna say gasol wasn't better than Z? Mo? Over the hill shaq? Lebron did more at cleveland with an all role player cast than Kobe ever sniffed at in his down years.

P.S. Where is Jabbar to go on about Kobe's sexual appeal as an argument to his greatness??

[jzek]

Bosh definitely = Gasol.

But we're not talking about MIA LBJ. The thread is about LBJ CLE (aka without HoF teammates) and Kobe from 04-07 (aka without HoF teammates).

Look at the original post. The years listed for LBJ are only during his CLE days so your point about Bosh is irrelevant to the discussion.

[TonyMontana]

http://oi39.tinypic.com/33jk5s1.jpg

Which Kobe stan do you guys think this is? Ripthekik? Dude rages hard and signs off as DonDadda who just so happened to rep me minutes earlier. :oldlol:


If Pau is a HOFer, than Bosh is too. So in that case...

Rings with just 1 superstar:

Kobe - 2
Lebron - 0

It's not about who is a "superstar" as it is the overall help. I would take Prime Shaq over 2012 Wade AND Bosh without hesitation and so would anyone with half a brain

When Kobe won his titles he had the best cast in the league and was the favorite in every playoff series. Kobe has never won a playoff series as an underdog so it's laughable to see his stans bitching that LeBron has more help than anyone. Kobe has lost every playoff series where he didn't have more help than the other team. :oldlol:

And I wouldn't call 2012 Wade OR Bosh superstars. None of those guys would be capable of leading a team on a deep playoff run so they hardly classify as superstars in my book. Not to mention LeBron had to win multiple playoff series WITHOUT Bosh and Wade was banged up for pretty much the entire playoffs. LeBrons 2012 playoff run was more impressive than any of Kobes and there is no denying this except for his most pathetic stans.

[ripthekik]

http://oi39.tinypic.com/33jk5s1.jpg

Which Kobe stan do you guys think this is? Ripthekik? Dude rages hard and signs off as DonDadda who just so happened to rep me minutes earlier. :oldlol:



It's not about who is a "superstar" as it is the overall help. I would take Prime Shaq over 2012 Wade AND Bosh without hesitation and so would anyone with half a brain

When Kobe won his titles he had the best cast in the league and was the favorite in every playoff series. Kobe has never won a playoff series as an underdog so it's laughable to see his stans bitching that LeBron has more help than anyone. Kobe has lost every playoff series where he didn't have more help than the other team. :oldlol:

And I wouldn't call 2012 Wade OR Bosh superstars. None of those guys would be capable of leading a team on a deep playoff run so they hardly classify as superstars in my book. Not to mention LeBron had to win multiple playoff series WITHOUT Bosh and Wade was banged up for pretty much the entire playoffs. LeBrons 2012 playoff run was more impressive than any of Kobes and there is no denying this except for his most pathetic stans.
Dumbass, I'm red, how am i supposed to neg you? :oldlol:

and no reply on why you quoted Heat's record against the west huh? dumbass. keep making long posts with so-called "Stats" that are totally irrelevant.

Next time, read the thread title. ISH 101 for april 2013's

[DonDadda59]

there's affirmative action in the basketball HOF for euro players, their international career embelish their candidacy

if Gasol was just ur regular brother he would be likely HOFer as zach randolph

It's called the BASKETBALL Hall of Fame, not the NBA hall of fame for a reason. Oscar Shmidt never played a minute in the NBA but he is as clear cut a HOFer as there is.

[Magic 32]

None of your points make any kind of sense:lol It must be weird to think like a Lakers fan:hammerhead:

Lebron fans can't understand basketball outside of stats, so that makes sense.

[Lebron23]

Who give a $hiT? LeBron is going to have the same Finals MVP as Kobe despite being almost 7 years younger.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

But we're not talking about MIA LBJ. The thread is about LBJ CLE and Kobe from 04-07 (aka without HoF teammates).

Look at the original post. The years listed for LBJ are only during his CLE days so your point about Bosh is irrelevant to the discussion.

We are just extending your logic to the present day.

We agree that Lebron's vast accomplishment of beating the following teams with the Cavs in the playoffs:

07 Pistons 53-29
09 Hawks 47-35
08 Wizards 43-39
06 Wizards 42-40
10 Bulls 41-41
07 Wizards 41-41
07 Nets 41-41
09 Pistons 39-43

is more impressive than Kobe's postseason win drought in between 5 rings and 7 conference championships

Now we just hope that Kobe can someday can have two all star teammates like Lebron right now. :confusedshrug:

[STATUTORY]

It's called the BASKETBALL Hall of Fame, not the NBA hall of fame for a reason. Oscar Shmidt never played a minute in the NBA but he is as clear cut a HOFer as there is.

That's exactly my point. I'm attacking the validity of using Gasol's HOFer status to justify his supposed NBA superstar play when he's getting HOF primarily because of something completely disconnected from his NBA career.

[DonDadda59]

http://oi39.tinypic.com/33jk5s1.jpg

Which Kobe stan do you guys think this is? Ripthekik? Dude rages hard and signs off as DonDadda who just so happened to rep me minutes earlier. :oldlol:


People using my name in vain SMH :facepalm

[TonyMontana]

Dumbass, I'm red, how am i supposed to neg you? :oldlol:

and no reply on why you quoted Heat's record against the west huh? dumbass. keep making long posts with so-called "Stats" that are totally irrelevant.

Next time, read the thread title. ISH 101 for april 2013's

Your posts arn't even worth replying to. You bring absolutely nothing to the table. I was spot on with my post about you responding with two sentences and some smileys.

If Kobes dick wasn't lodged so far in your mouth it wouldn't be effecting your ability to process information. I was dismantling your trash about the East being worse than the West. If I really want to, I can go to any year you want and find something similar, but I see some of my boys already showed that LeBrons record was even better vs the West during his Cavalier days as well. :oldlol:

[CanYouDigIt]

Kobe won 5 rings with just one all star/HOF teammate per title team.

He hasn't had two all star teammates in 15 years. :confusedshrug:
So you'd rather have a beaten up Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh over a prime Shaq? :wtf: :banghead: :biggums:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So you'd rather have a beaten up Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh over a prime Shaq? :wtf: :banghead: :biggums:

(Prime Shaq + Prime Gasol)/2 ....... yeah :confusedshrug:

[leMVP]

but..but..Mo williams was an all-star

[Magic 32]

Who give a $hiT? LeBron is going to have the same Finals MVP as Kobe despite being almost 7 years younger.

With Lebron's lack of fundamentals, his 30's will be a nightmare. Enjoy these "mercenary evil empire asterisk" rings while you can.

And if he loses this year, we will haunt you forever.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

(Prime Shaq + Prime Gasol)/2 ....... yeah :confusedshrug:

More accurately its

(60% Prime Shaq + 40% Pau Gasol) vs (100% Prime Wade AND 100% Prime Bosh)

[DonDadda59]

That's exactly my point. I'm attacking the validity of using Gasol's HOFer status to justify his supposed NBA superstar play when he's getting HOF primarily because of something completely disconnected from his NBA career.

The guy is a 18 PPG/9RPG career player who was a huge part of 2 championships (3 straight trips), 4x all star, Rookie of the year. How is that less of a case for the hall than say Kevin McHale? His NBA career alone is HOF worthy. The international play aspect just makes it 1st ballot/a no brainer.

[Nash]

Lebron's cast the season after he left them = Longest losing streak in NBA history.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The guy is a 18 PPG/9RPG career player who was a huge part of 2 championships (3 straight trips), 4x all star, Rookie of the year. How is that less of a case for the hall than say Kevin McHale? His NBA career alone is HOF worthy. The international play aspect just makes it 1st ballot/a no brainer.


18/9 vs 19/9
2 rings vs 1 ring
3 conference titles vs 2 conference titles
4x all star vs 8x all star
ROY vs All rookie 1st team
Silver medal vs Gold medal

:confusedshrug:

[ShaqAttack3234]

06 Suns = better than any team Lebron faced in 06
07 Suns = better than any team Lebron beat in 07

:sleeping

Well, I'd take the 2006 Pistons who won 64 games over the Amare-less 2006 Suns, but it doesn't really matter since both Lebron and Kobe lost to those teams. '07 Suns>'07 Wizards(who didn't even have Arenas or Butler), '07 Nets, '07 Pistons, though and '06 Suns>'06 Wizards.


The guy is a 18 PPG/9RPG career player who was a huge part of 2 championships (3 straight trips), 4x all star, Rookie of the year. How is that less of a case for the hall than say Kevin McHale? His NBA career alone is HOF worthy. The international play aspect just makes it 1st ballot/a no brainer.

Well, McHale was a flat out better player in his prime, though I agree that Gasol is no less of a hall of famer than a number of guys who are in. The HOF is about accomplishments more than how great you actually were, so you can throw in the 2 all-nba 3rd teams and the all-nba 2nd team as well.

As for those saying Bosh is equal to what Gasol was on the '09 and '10 Lakers? That's a bad joke. I don't really care enough to compare Kobe and Lebron's cast, and try to pick a side or whatever, but that's just wrong. Anyone with eyes can see that '09 and '10 Pau was clearly better than Bosh is right now. It's not even debatable.

[STATUTORY]

The guy is a 18 PPG/9RPG career player who was a huge part of 2 championships (3 straight trips), 4x all star, Rookie of the year. How is that less of a case for the hall than say Kevin McHale? His NBA career alone is HOF worthy. The international play aspect just makes it 1st ballot/a no brainer.

so at which point did Gasol become a HOFer and superstar? the only aspect of his NBA career that elevates him above a guy like Zach Randolph is the rings he won cause of Kobe, he's 0-20 in playoffs without said man. So retrospectively we say Kobe had "superstar" help when the substantiation of Gasol's "superstar" status is because of something he would never have had without Kobe? that's poor identification right there.

No one regards Kevin Mchale as a superstar either.

[Lebron23]

With Lebron's lack of fundamentals, his 30's will be a nightmare. Enjoy these "mercenary evil empire asterisk" rings while you can.

And if he loses this year, we will haunt you forever.


What lack of fundamentals? Watch some games son!!!. LeBron has a higher basketball IQ than Kobe. And he's also a better team leader on and off the court.

Gasol is a first ballot Hall of famer. The guy led Team Spain in the 2006 FIBA World Championship.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Those Cleveland teams were really good, I remember Jamison, Varejao, Mo Williams, Big Z they just couldn't miss a shot and played elite defense, too bad lebron(*) quit on them routinely when they needed him the most.

They were a great eastern conference(*) team.

Meanwhile kobe was carrying dead-weight to the playoffs :bowdown: :bowdown: :applause:

[DonDadda59]

so at which point did Gasol become a HOFer and superstar? the only aspect of his NBA career that elevates him above a guy like Zach Randolph is the rings he won cause of Kobe, he's 0-20 in playoffs without said man. So retrospectively we say Kobe had "superstar" help when the substantiation of Gasol's "superstar" status is because of something he would never have had without Kobe? that's poor identification right there.

Kobe after Shaq w/o Gasol = a poor man's Iverson or TMac.

Basketball is a team sport and Gasol was a huge part of those championships with many arguing he should have 1 FMVP.


No one regards Kevin Mchale as a superstar either.

Surely you jest :confusedshrug:

[swag2011]

We are just extending your logic to the present day.

We agree that Lebron's vast accomplishment of beating the following teams with the Cavs in the playoffs:

07 Pistons 53-29
09 Hawks 47-35
08 Wizards 43-39
06 Wizards 42-40
10 Bulls 41-41
07 Wizards 41-41
07 Nets 41-41
09 Pistons 39-43

is more impressive than Kobe's postseason win drought in between 5 rings and 7 conference championships

Now we just hope that Kobe can someday can have two all star teammates like Lebron right now. :confusedshrug:

lmao :applause: Lebron is the GOAT for beating teams with a .500 record in the first 2 rounds of the playoffs when those teams wouldn't even SNIFF the playoffs in the West. Yet Kobe gets penalized for taking a 2 seed to 7 games. I wish Kobe got a chance to play teams with a .500 record in the playoffs then.

[longtime lurker]

Who give a $hiT? LeBron is going to have the same Finals MVP as Kobe despite being almost 7 years younger.

And 3 far less titles congrats.

[chosen_wun]

Kobe can't win this one. His crutch is having superstar help all 10+ years he's been on a contender.

[Heavincent]

Kobe after Shaq w/o Gasol = a poor man's Iverson or TMac.


Wrong.


Gasol was a huge part of those championships with many arguing he should have 1 FMVP.

Wrong.

[longtime lurker]

Kobe can't win this one. His crutch is having superstar help all 10+ years he's been on a contender.

LMAO @ calling Gasol a superstar. What does this really show both Lebron and Kobe need superstar help to win a championship. Wow what a revelation.

[chosen_wun]

LMAO @ calling Gasol a superstar. What does this really show both Lebron and Kobe need superstar help to win a championship. Wow what a revelation.
Also Kobe can't win without the best front court in the league. Unlike MJ and LeBron...you mad ?:(

[longtime lurker]

Also Kobe can't win without the best front court in the league. Unlike MJ and LeBron...you mad ?:(

Lebron can't win without another top 5 player and top 5 PF. You disappointed? Lol comparing MJ and Lebron. Even tha God thinks Kobe>>>than Lebron

5 beats 1 must burn your soul

[ShaqAttack3234]

so at which point did Gasol become a HOFer and superstar? the only aspect of his NBA career that elevates him above a guy like Zach Randolph is the rings he won cause of Kobe, he's 0-20 in playoffs without said man. So retrospectively we say Kobe had "superstar" help when the substantiation of Gasol's "superstar" status is because of something he would never have had without Kobe? that's poor identification right there.

No one regards Kevin Mchale as a superstar either.

No one regards McHale as a superstar because very few on this board seem to know how good he was. The guy was around a top 5 player in '86 and '87. He was truly unstoppable in the post, even when you doubled him, had a really good shooting touch, was a solid rebounder, had become a better passer than he was given credit for and he was not only a good shot blocker, but an excellent individual defender who could effectively guard the top small forwards of the era.

And the double standard in your post is ridiculous. Gasol won his rings because of Kobe, yet you throw a temper tantrum when people say Kobe won because of Shaq.

Kobe was better than Gasol and the Lakers MVP, but not giving his Gasol his credit just makes you come off as a fanboy with an agenda. Gasol joined a Bynum-less Laker team, which was essentially a .500, first round exit team at best, and they went 22-4 the rest of the regular season with Gasol and beat the defending champ Spurs in 5 to reach the finals. Pau was a significantly better player than 2009 and 2010 and played consistently excellent basketball in both the regular season and playoffs.

There have been better second options than Pau Gasol(2001 and 2002 Kobe for example) but Pau was as important to the Lakers success as any second option. It couldn't be any more obvious, Pau joins a lower tier playoff team and they instantly make the finals and dominate the West.

[fpliii]

Also Kobe can't win without the best front court in the league. Unlike MJ and LeBron...you mad ?:(

Those two are really anomalies in league history though. Both cases involved the winning team having the two best two-way wings in the league instead of a dominant big. Not sure who else compares (Baylor didn't play enough defense when he was alongside West, and Hill wasn't healthy with TMac, who also didn't play enough consistent defense).

[chosen_wun]

Lebron can't win without another top 5 player and top 5 PF. You disappointed? Lol comparing MJ and Lebron. Even tha God thinks Kobe>>>than Lebron

5 beats 1 must burn your soul
Not really.

I'm more into comparing FMVP, which is better context for head to head comparisons for titles than just "5 ringz > 1".

[longtime lurker]

Not really.

I'm more into comparing FMVP, which is better context for head to head comparisons for titles than just "5 ringz > 1".

Yeah finals MVP is a good comparison except no it's not! Even the great one says 5>1. Sorry to break your heart on this.

[chosen_wun]

Those two are really anomalies in league history though. Both cases involved the winning team having the two best two-way wings in the league instead of a dominant big. Not sure who else compares (Baylor didn't play enough defense when he was alongside West, and Hill wasn't healthy with TMac, who also didn't play enough consistent defense).
Hill and T-Mac could have been up there, it's sad to think about what could have been. ORL almost signed Duncan too I heard...twilight Patrick Ewing was there just a season before as well. Crazy.

[DonDadda59]

Yeah finals MVP is a good comparison except no it's not! Even the great one says 5>1. Sorry to break your heart on this.

So you agree with this statement then: John Havlicek > Kobe.

Right? :confusedshrug:

[STATUTORY]

No one regards McHale as a superstar because very few on this board seem to know how good he was. The guy was around a top 5 player in '86 and '87. He was truly unstoppable in the post, even when you doubled him, had a really good shooting touch, was a solid rebounder, had become a better passer than he was given credit for and he was not only a good shot blocker, but an excellent individual defender who could effectively guard the top small forwards of the era.

And the double standard in your post is ridiculous. Gasol won his rings because of Kobe, yet you throw a temper tantrum when people say Kobe won because of Shaq.

Kobe was better than Gasol and the Lakers MVP, but not giving his Gasol his credit just makes you come off as a fanboy with an agenda. Gasol joined a Bynum-less Laker team, which was essentially a .500, first round exit team at best, and they went 22-4 the rest of the regular season with Gasol and beat the defending champ Spurs in 5 to reach the finals. Pau was a significantly better player than 2009 and 2010 and played consistently excellent basketball in both the regular season and playoffs.

There have been better second options than Pau Gasol(2001 and 2002 Kobe for example) but Pau was as important to the Lakers success as any second option. It couldn't be any more obvious, Pau joins a lower tier playoff team and they instantly make the finals and dominate the West.

I actually think I'm pretty consistent in my evaluation of supporting talent. I try to assess how they have done away from the main star and ideally when leading their own team. That forms my basis for what type of supporting player they are, not what they do once they are part of the team. Or else our analysis is simply post hoc ergo propter hoc since if the team is succesful many supporting players will have their resume buoyed by championship and thus be viewed as superstar retroactively.

[longtime lurker]

So you agree with this statement then: John Havlicek > Kobe.

Right? :confusedshrug:

Yes of course. And he's also much better than Lebron. Your boy has a lot of catching up to do.

[branslowski]

Ironically this many ppl wasn't on Gasols *** while he was in Memphis...And if Gasol was a superstar, then Bosh and Zach Randolph should be..

[fpliii]

Hill and T-Mac could have been up there, it's sad to think about what could have been. ORL almost signed Duncan too I heard...twilight Patrick Ewing was there just a season before as well. Crazy.

No doubt. Orlando's had it rough over the years for sure.

[Legends66NBA7]

Ironically this many ppl wasn't on Gasols *** while he was in Memphis

Different markets.

[DonDadda59]

Yes of course. And he's also much better than Lebron. Your boy has a lot of catching up to do.

Who is 'my boy' exactly? :confusedshrug:

[DMV2]

LeBron James splits vs East/West

http://oi42.tinypic.com/i1zfxu.jpg

Kobe Bryant splits vs East/West

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2s9ufd4.jpg

Both of these boys putting up HIGHER scoring on BETTER efficiency vs West teams as opposed to East teams. But wait we're not done yet.

LeBron James record vs West: 25-5(.833)
LeBron James record vs East: 41-11(.788)



LeBron with an even better winning percent vs the West?! This can't be with that stacked conference! But wait we're not done yet.

Beat Knicks in 5 games
Beat Pacers in 6 games
Beat Celtics in 7 games
Beat Thunder in 5 games

The Wests VERY BEST was good enough to take the Heat as far as their first round fodder oppenent did.

Now hurry up and make your post that consists of smileys and a one liner so everyone on the site can see how inept you are to argue basketball.
Why did you bring in real statistics and facts into this? :facepalm

[secund2nun]

It just proves that Kobe is a massively overrated player that steals all of the credit from his elite best in the NBA front courts.

To top it all off, Lebron was not in his prime in Cleveland yet that was prime Kobe:roll:

[MAC system]

Kobe didn't have superstar help in 09 and 10 :confusedshrug: all depends on how you define superstar, if you don't consider the best big(top 3 at worst) in the game as a superstar then no he didn't. Moron.

[Legends66NBA7]

Lebron was not in his prime in Cleveland yet

This myth needs to stop.

From 07-08 to 09-10 he was in his prime. That's 3 seasons.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I actually think I'm pretty consistent in my evaluation of supporting talent. I try to assess how they have done away from the main star and ideally when leading their own team. That forms my basis for what type of supporting player they are, not what they do once they are part of the team. Or else our analysis is simply post hoc ergo propter hoc since if the team is succesful many supporting players will have their resume buoyed by championship and thus be viewed as superstar retroactively.

That's faulty for several reasons. one being it assumes that player remains exactly the same and doesn't improve, which is typically false. And that's also judging how good of a 2nd option someone is by how good of a first option they are, which is truly ridiculous. Gasol obviously wasn't a top 5 player, or a guy who you expect to lead a team to a title and dominate. He's the type of player who you can only imagine winning a title as the best player if the team was really stacked.

But he was a solid first option in Memphis, not great, or a true superstar, but a respectable first option who was about as good of a second option as you can ask for. He wasn't a dominate guy who would lead your team, but he was the most skilled big man in the league at one point who did pretty much everything you could ask for. There was no better post scorer in '09 than Gasol, no better passing big man, and he had also became a damn good rebounder, a solid defensive player and one of the smartest and most unselfish all-stars who happened to fit perfectly in the triangle and had more talent than most second options, but was perfectly content in the second option role.

Again, when you can add a guy to a .500, 1st round type team and they instantly become a finals team, that's an enormous impact.

Of course, judging supporting talent based solely on the second option is idiotic itself.


This myth needs to stop.

From 07-08 to 09-10 he was in his prime. That's 3 seasons.

I don't know about '08, but definitely '09 and '10.

[DonDadda59]

This myth needs to stop.

From 07-08 to 09-10 he was in his prime. That's 3 seasons.

Questionable. I think he's been considerably better the past 3 seasons. He can do everything he did then but his shot has improved dramatically, he has somewhat of a post game now, his defense is much better, and probably most importantly- he deals with pressure much better now, he clearly has a much better grasp of the mental aspect of the game.

[MAC system]

Ironically this many ppl wasn't on Gasols *** while he was in Memphis...And if Gasol was a superstar, then Bosh and Zach Randolph should be..
You are so god damn dumb and insecure when it comes to basketball and kobe.

Gasol was rookie of the year and led his team in the West to 50 49 and 45 wins, with no other allstar(and if youre keeping track that's better than what kobe led his team to without another allstar). The year he was injured they put up 20 wins, the year after he was traded they put up another 20 wins.

Gasol is the most underrated player I've ever seen by kobefans.

Now stop acting like you know anything more about basketball than what kobes dick looks like you degenerate.

[gengiskhan]

Kobe:

* 2004-2005 | 34 - 48 record = missed the playoffs
* 2005-2006 | 45 - 37 record = lost in the first round
* 2006-2007 | 42 - 40 record = lost in the first round (after this season, Kobe publicly demanded to be traded (http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/3446/kobe-bryant-says-he-d-like-to-be-traded))


LeBron:

* 2003-2004 | 35 - 47 record = missed the playoffs
* 2004-2005 | 42 - 40 record = missed the playoffs
* 2005-2006 | 50 - 32 record = Lost NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals
* 2006-2007 | 50 - 32 record = Lost NBA Finals
* 2007-2008 | 45 - 37 record = Lost NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals
* 2008-2009 | 66 - 16 record = Lost NBA Eastern Conference Finals
* 2009-2010 | 61 - 21 record = Lost NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals


Conclusion: Without superstar help (i.e., Shaq or Gasol+Bynum [aka Twin Towers]), Kobe's career is nothing compared to LeBron's (LBJ won multiple MVP awards, too). Not to mention Kobe had Phil Jackson as a coach for many many many years whereas LeBron had Mike Brown in CLE.

agreed.

Kobe as LONE superstar is First rounder @ Best & Lottery team @ worse.

LBJ as LONE superstar is NBA Finalist @ Best & 3 MVPs @ best.

Kobe is just plain pathetic.

[PickernRoller]

Lol at this thread. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Quality vs. quantity folks - the trolling is old.

[willds09]

Lebron fails at this miserably, cleveland days he gaved up everytime in tha playoffs when it mattered most.

[eliteballer]

Smush Parker Kwame Brown in the Western conference is equal to Mo Williams, Larry Hughes, Vareajo, Illgauskus etc. in the Least?

[ShaqAttack3234]

Smush Parker Kwame Brown in the Western conference is equal to Mo Williams, Larry Hughes, Vareajo, Illgauskus etc. in the Least?

I agree that Lebron was in a better position to advance further than Kobe was from 2005-2007, but why exactly is Lamar Odom ALWAYS left out of these comparisons when he was the second best player on those Lakers BY FAR? :facepalm

[Legends66NBA7]

I agree that Lebron was in a better position to advance further than Kobe was from 2005-2007, but why exactly is Lamar Odom ALWAYS left out of these comparisons when he was the second best player on those Lakers BY FAR? :facepalm

Doesn't fit the agenda. Or as DonDadda put it "It goes against the Tao of Bean". :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

I agree that Lebron was in a better position to advance further than Kobe was from 2005-2007, but why exactly is Lamar Odom ALWAYS left out of these comparisons when he was the second best player on those Lakers BY FAR? :facepalm

Yep.

And Odom produced in the playoffs those two years as well.

19/11/5
19/13/2

What did Mo Williams do in 09 and 10 in the playoffs?

16/3/4
14/3/5

Both years shot 41% from the field...but somehow he's used as an example quality help? Never have understood the propping up of a one dimensional player that sucks at defense and underperforms in the playoffs under pressure.

He was average Jason Terry at his best...and a poor man's Jason Terry at his worst.

[secund2nun]

This myth needs to stop.

From 07-08 to 09-10 he was in his prime. That's 3 seasons.

No he wasn't. His prime is right now or in the near future. He is way better now than in his Cleveland days.

[secund2nun]

Smush Parker Kwame Brown in the Western conference is equal to Mo Williams, Larry Hughes, Vareajo, Illgauskus etc. in the Least?

Ignoring Lamar Odom who is way better than any Cleveland player you listed? :roll:

[ShaqAttack3234]

Doesn't fit the agenda. Or as DonDadda put it "It goes against the Tao of Bean". :oldlol:

Yeah, I knew why he didn't include Odom and why other Kobe fanboys often don't, I was just seeing how he was going to answer. I suspected he wouldn't own up to it, though. Do they really think they're not going to get called on it? Everyone knows Kobe had bad teams during that time, but that's not good enough for some, they have to try to make Kobe's casts out to be even worse than they were.

Not to mention that he included Mo Williams and Larry Hughes when they were never on the Cavs at the same time.

[Legends66NBA7]

No he wasn't. His prime is right now or in the near future.

Yes he was. He cleary hit his prime in Cleveland, whether it's 07-08 or 08-09 season, it's right there. LeBron's play backs that up in his jump shot and defensive improvements, so are his all-around numbers.

And I'm not arguing about how he's better in Miami than in Cleveland. He is better from Miami, but his prime didn't start from 11-12, I would rather call this his peak years.

[DatAsh]

The guy is a 18 PPG/9RPG career player who was a huge part of 2 championships (3 straight trips), 4x all star, Rookie of the year. How is that less of a case for the hall than say Kevin McHale? His NBA career alone is HOF worthy. The international play aspect just makes it 1st ballot/a no brainer.

I see McHale as a tier above Gasol in terms of level of play. Not to downplay Gasol, but prime McHale would probably be a top 3-5 player in this current league.

[DatAsh]

No one regards Kevin Mchale as a superstar either.

How many on this board have actually seen McHale play?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

People don't include Odom because hes never been anything more than a role player. He's never been an all star in his career, nor was he ever close. His defense against the Suns was as useless as everybody else's on the Lakers. Contrastingly, the little playoff success that the Cavs actually had was fueled by actual elite defensive play from Lebron's teammates .

[eliteballer]

Odom played 64 games in 05, 80 in 06, and 56 in 07

Kobe played 66 in 05.

LeBron beat ONE 50 win team in his ENTIRE CAREER in Cleveland.

ISHiots.

[Legends66NBA7]

Yeah, I knew why he didn't include Odom and why other Kobe fanboys often don't, I was just seeing how he was going to answer. I suspected he wouldn't own up to it, though. Do they really think they're not going to get called on it? Everyone knows Kobe had bad teams during that time, but that's not good enough for some, they have to try to make Kobe's casts out to be even worse than they were.

Not to mention that he included Mo Williams and Larry Hughes when they were never on the Cavs at the same time.

Pretty much.

I can understand that Odom could be an inconsistent player at times on both offense and defense, but to act like he wasn't even on the roster is lame. The 06-07 season is a perfect example about how valuable of a second option Odom was at the time. The Lakers stumbled at the second half of the season with Odom's injuries and ultimately lost in 5 to the Suns with Amare in the lineup.

And yeah, the inaccuracies on LeBron's teammates isn't surprising either since they didn't even know Odom was the 2nd best player for the Lakers at that same period.

[ShaqAttack3234]

People don't include Odom because hes never been anything more than a role player. He's never been an all star in his career, nor was he ever close. His defense against the Suns was as useless as everybody else's on the Lakers. Contrastingly, the little playoff success that the Cavs actually had was fueled by actual elite defensive play from Lebron's teammates .

So you don't include Odom because he's never been more than a role player yet you do include Kwame Brown and Smush Parker? You really think anyone is stupid enough to accept that answer?

By the way, either your memory is faulty, or you just showed that your posts are an indication of how long you've been watching the NBA because you said Odom has never been close to being an all-star while many thought he deserved to be one in 2004 during his season in Miami. Hell, a number of people thought he deserved to be one in 2011, and he was being talked about as having an all-star start before his injury in December of the '06-'07 season. So yes, he has been close.


Odom played 64 games in 05, 80 in 06, and 56 in 07

Kobe played 66 in 05.

LeBron beat ONE 50 win team in his ENTIRE CAREER in Cleveland.

ISHiots.

Yes, and Kwame and Smush weren't there for '05, plus Kwame missed 10 games in '06 and 41 games in '07. Yet you include him and not Odom.

[Legends66NBA7]

Odom played 64 games in 05, 80 in 06, and 56 in 07


Which doesn't change the fact that he was the second best player on that team.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The only remotely impressive series victory by Lebron without superstar help...

2007 Cavs vs 2007 Pistons

Game 1 Detroit held to 97.9 off rating
Game 2 Detroit held to 94.5 off rating
Game 3 Detroit held to 102.0 off rating
Game 4 Detroit held to 98.5 off rating
Game 5 Detroit held to 113.7 off rating
Game 6 Detroit held to 92.9 off rating

Years before Lebron had any sort of defensive reputation his teammates held the opposition to under 98.5 points per possession 4 times in a series.

Meanwhile in LA

Game 1 Suns held to 105.0 off rating
Game 2 Suns held to 135.2 off rating
Game 3 Suns held to 104.1 off rating
Game 4 Suns held to 112.0 off rating
Game 5 Suns held to 118.9 off rating

:facepalm

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So you don't include Odom because he's never been more than a role player yet you do include Kwame Brown and Smush Parker? You really think anyone is stupid enough to accept that answer?

By the way, either your memory is faulty, or you just showed that your posts are an indication of how long you've been watching the NBA because you said Odom has never been close to being an all-star while many thought he deserved to be one in 2004 during his season in Miami. Hell, a number of people thought he deserved to be one in 2011, and he was being talked about as having an all-star start before his injury in December of the '06-'07 season. So yes, he has been close.



Yes, and Kwame and Smush weren't there for '05, plus Kwame missed 10 games in '06 and 41 games in '07. Yet you include him and not Odom.

Many idiots think a lot of things. Many think Kobe is GOAT. Is that a convincing argument?

Smush Parker and Kwame Brown are go to names because they are comically bad. Lamar Odom wasn't. He just was never an all star level player, just like Pau Gasol was never a superstar. Apparently when Kobe "stans" stick to reality it ruffles some feathers.

In 04 the Heat were 21-27 and Odom had a 41%FG. In 11 there was tons of injuries and he was still clearly behind Love and Aldridge in the pecking order. He wasn't close.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Many idiots think a lot of things. Many think Kobe is GOAT. Is that a convincing argument?

So are you admitting that you're trying to deceive idiots?


Smush Parker and Kwame Brown are go to names because they are comically bad. Lamar Odom wasn't. He just was never an all star level player, just like Pau Gasol was never a superstar. Apparently when Kobe "stans" stick to reality it ruffles some feathers.

So wait, you only compare Kobe's "comically bad" teammates to Lebron's best teammates? And Odom isn't included because he isn't "comically bad?" That's what I thought, the difference looks greater than it even was when you exclude Odom and that's the sole reason it's done. To distort reality and mislead people.


In 04 the Heat were 21-27 and Odom had a 41%FG. In 11 there was tons of injuries and he was still clearly behind Love and Aldridge in the pecking order. He wasn't close.

Doesn't matter if you think he was close, a lot of people were talking about him as an all-star those 2 years. If we're just talking about level of play and not was he actually close to making it then you have to at least acknowledge 2004 because by the end of that year, Miami's record was a hell of a lot better.

[DatAsh]

Many idiots think a lot of things. Many think Kobe is GOAT. Is that a convincing argument?

Smush Parker and Kwame Brown are go to names because they are comically bad. Lamar Odom wasn't. He just was never an all star level player, just like Pau Gasol was never a superstar. Apparently when Kobe "stans" stick to reality it ruffles some feathers.

In 04 the Heat were 21-27 and Odom had a 41%FG. In 11 there was tons of injuries and he was still clearly behind Love and Aldridge in the pecking order. He wasn't close.

You're missing the point. In a comparison of Kobe's best teammates to Lebron's best teammates, why would you ever leave off Kobe's best teammate? That's like saying Westbrook and Martin are better than Bosh and Battier, therefore Durant has more help than Lebron.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So are you admitting that you're trying to deceive idiots?



So wait, you only compare Kobe's "comically bad" teammates to Lebron's best teammates?



Doesn't matter if you think he was close, a lot of people were talking about him as an all-star those 2 years. If we're just talking about level of play and not was he actually close to making it then you have to at least acknowledge 2004 because by the end of that year, Miami's record was a hell of a lot better.

I compare the collective teammates of both. I have no need to single out players. It doesn't make a difference. I just think its funny how convenient it is that everybody forgets why the Cavs won so many games in the first place. They played elite level defense (avg def rank of 6 from 07-11), were great rebounders and three point shooters. The 05-07 Kobettes on the other hand were defensive liabilities (avg rank 23)

Who are a lot of people? His teammates? His coach? Some local reporter who needs something new to write about every day? Was there nationwide uproar that a player with decent numbers on a bad team in a weak conference didn't make the all star team as a reserve? What relevance is the Heat's record after the all star break? Its completely irrelevant.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You're missing the point. In a comparison of Kobe's best teammates to Lebron's best teammates, why would you ever leave off Kobe's best teammate? That's like saying Westbrook and Martin are better than Bosh and Battier, therefore Durant has more help than Lebron.

I didn't make the initial comparison. I never left him out in the first place. My question is what does it matter? Is Lamar Odom a game changer? Does it change the fact that Lebron's postseason success with the Cavs was fueled by weak competition and elite team defensive play?

[DMAVS41]

Many idiots think a lot of things. Many think Kobe is GOAT. Is that a convincing argument?

Smush Parker and Kwame Brown are go to names because they are comically bad. Lamar Odom wasn't. He just was never an all star level player, just like Pau Gasol was never a superstar. Apparently when Kobe "stans" stick to reality it ruffles some feathers.

In 04 the Heat were 21-27 and Odom had a 41%FG. In 11 there was tons of injuries and he was still clearly behind Love and Aldridge in the pecking order. He wasn't close.

Odom isn't talked about because he was really good and played very well in the playoffs.

In 04, Odom averaged 17/10/4...while his efficiency wasn't great...he was still a very very good player. And he only improved from then on through his time on the Lakers. He's literally a perfect third guy to have. He is so versatile, can be effective with or without the ball, plays solid defense in a variety of ways...and is a great rebounder.

People just forget what he actually was like on the Lakers because of the bad taste everyone as in their mouth over the Lakers disastrous 11 playoffs and then odom's season in Dallas and then doing nothing of note this season really.

That doesn't change the fact that he was a really good player...and a player that played really well in the playoffs in the two years in question in 06 and 07.

Yet somehow guys like Mo (horrible in the playoffs on both ends), Hughes and Big Z...like they were somehow something other than average at best.

06 playoffs?

Hughes - 11/3/4 32%fg
Z - 10/6/1 45% fg

07 playoffs?

Hughes - 11/4/2 35% fg (hurt for the finals)
Z - 13/10/1 49%fg

And they made the finals. Have you actually really looked at that 07 roster? I don't care who they played...that is garbage. And yes, I know they played great defense...doesn't matter...and that is hardly separate from Lebron.

And if defensive help is that important. Kwame plays really good defense...:confusedshrug:

[DatAsh]

I didn't make the initial comparison. I never left him out in the first place.

I realize that, and that's why I simply said you were missing ShaqAttack3234's point. It didn't seem like you were purposefully trying to deceive there - like the other guy obviously was.

[DMAVS41]

I compare the collective teammates of both. I have no need to single out players. It doesn't make a difference. I just think its funny how convenient it is that everybody forgets why the Cavs won so many games in the first place. They played elite level defense (avg def rank of 6 from 07-11), were great rebounders and three point shooters. The 05-07 Kobettes on the other hand were defensive liabilities (avg rank 23)

Who are a lot of people? His teammates? His coach? Some local reporter who needs something new to write about every day? Was there nationwide uproar that a player with decent numbers on a bad team in a weak conference didn't make the all star team as a reserve? What relevance is the Heat's record after the all star break? Its completely irrelevant.

The Cavs won 50 games in 06 and 07. The Lakers won 45 and 42 respectively. And the Cavs played in the weaker conference. How many games is that worth? I'd say at minimum 3 wins.

We all know the Lebron had more help those years...but it isn't this night and day difference. Not to mention Lebron had a ton more success those years. He actually got out of the first round and then made the finals the next year.

We can sit here and talk about how bad Kobe's help was in 06...and it was bad, but the big ****ing elephant in the room was Kobe's pedestrian playoff performance against the Suns -- a weak ass defensive team. That little nugget is conveniently swept under the rug by the..."OMG...Kwame, Smush..etc." talk.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Odom isn't talked about because he was really good and played very well in the playoffs.

In 04, Odom averaged 17/10/4...while his efficiency wasn't great...he was still a very very good player. And he only improved from then on through his time on the Lakers. He's literally a perfect third guy to have. He is so versatile, can be effective with or without the ball, plays solid defense in a variety of ways...and is a great rebounder.

People just forget what he actually was like on the Lakers because of the bad taste everyone as in their mouth over the Lakers disastrous 11 playoffs and then odom's season in Dallas and then doing nothing of note this season really.

That doesn't change the fact that he was a really good player...and a player that played really well in the playoffs in the two years in question in 06 and 07.

Yet somehow guys like Mo (horrible in the playoffs on both ends), Hughes and Big Z...like they were somehow something other than average at best.

06 playoffs?

Hughes - 11/3/4 32%fg
Z - 10/6/1 54% fg

07 playoffs?

Hughes - 11/4/2 35% fg (hurt for the finals)
Z - 13/10/1 49%fg

And they made the finals. Have you actually really looked at that 07 roster? I don't care who they played...that is garbage. And yes, I know they played great defense...doesn't matter...and that is hardly separate from Lebron.

And if defensive help is that important. Kwame plays really good defense...:confusedshrug:

Yeah I looked at 07 Cavs roster. It shows me that 07 Cavs were a top 4 defensive team. It shows me that they beat two .500 clubs, upset the Pistons and then were swept in the Finals. Digging a little deeper it shows me the Cavs dominated the Pistons defensively 4 out 6 games. It shows me Boobie Gibson dropping 31 points on 7-9 shooting in the final game. Am I supposed to believe that is all trumped by the fact that Lamar Odom was "productive" in a couple series in which the other team scored efficiently and quickly at will. :confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The Cavs won 50 games in 06 and 07. The Lakers won 45 and 42 respectively. And the Cavs played in the weaker conference. How many games is that worth? I'd say at minimum 3 wins.

We all know the Lebron had more help those years...but it isn't this night and day difference. Not to mention Lebron had a ton more success those years. He actually got out of the first round and then made the finals the next year.

We can sit here and talk about how bad Kobe's help was in 06...and it was bad, but the big ****ing elephant in the room was Kobe's pedestrian playoff performance against the Suns -- a weak ass defensive team. That little nugget is conveniently swept under the rug by the..."OMG...Kwame, Smush..etc." talk.

Damn you know you are a legend when dropping 28/6/5 on .50/40/.77 is a "pedestrian" playoff performance. :oldlol:

[ShaqAttack3234]

I compare the collective teammates of both. I have no need to single out players. It doesn't make a difference. I just think its funny how convenient it is that everybody forgets why the Cavs won so many games in the first place. They played elite level defense (avg def rank of 6 from 07-11), were great rebounders and three point shooters. The 05-07 Kobettes on the other hand were defensive liabilities (avg rank 23)

I've acknowledged Cleveland's defense numerous times, as well as their rebounding. I'm not arguing that Kobe had as much help as Lebron from '05-'07 or was in as good of a position to win, especially considering conferences. I've stated the exact opposite in this thread. We're actually in agreement over this. My only problem is with Eliteballer intentionally excluding Odom and including Lebron's best teammates(including 2 who never played together) for no other purpose other than deceiving and now you somehow trying to justify it.


Who are a lot of people? His teammates? His coach? Some local reporter who needs something new to write about every day? Was there nationwide uproar that a player with decent numbers on a bad team in a weak conference didn't make the all star team as a reserve? What relevance is the Heat's record after the all star break? Its completely irrelevant.

Anyone who watched the NBA closely in 2004 will remember Odom being mentioned as a an all-star candidate.

I shouldn't waste time doing this, but I'll dig up numerous mentions of it.


Among the developments that have pleased Riley this season, aside from Dwyane Wade: ``Lamar Odom has had an All-Star caliber year. 1/14/04 Miami Herald


Two weeks ago, Stan Van Gundy said he believed Lamar Odom should be considered for the Eastern Conference All-Star team. aturday, the Heat coach had a slightly stronger opinion on the matter. ``To me, it's unexplainable why he would not be on the All-Star team in the Eastern Conference as a power forward,'' Van Gundy said. 2/1/04 Miami Herald


The NBA will announce All-Star Game reserves this afternoon, and there is a decent chance Heat forward Lamar Odom will be on the Eastern Conference team. 2/3/04 Miami Herald


Other players having outstanding seasons that were overlooked include Zach Randolph of the Portland Trail Blazers, Mike Bibby of the Sacramento Kings, Lamar Odom of the Miami Heat, Erick Dampier of the Golden State Warriors, Shawn Marion of the Phoenix Suns and another rookie, Carmelo Anthony of the Denver Nuggets. 2/3/04 USA Today http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/allstar/2004-02-03-reserves_x.htm


Miami's Lamar Odom, who deserves consideration for an All-Star spot, scored 17 points in the first half and outplayed Martin, who managed just six points. 2/4/04 NBA.com


I would have preferred seeing Lamar Odom in the game instead of those two, simply because I believe he's had a much better season 2/4/04 San Antonio Express-News


Lamar Odom. who was not selected for the all- star game despite averaging 16.9 points and rebounds, had 27 points and 12 rebounds in showing what fans in Los Angeles will miss at the midseason showcase of the NBA's top talent 2/5/04 Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Is that enough for you?

And as far as your comment about why would Miami's record after the all-star break be relevant? I'm pretty sure you're intentionally making me dumb it down for you. You couldn't possibly be this stupid and manage to turn on a computer. But anyway, I'll play along. I have this long, so what's one more time? It's relevant because I mentioned that Odom was in fact close, which I backed up. Your opinion on whether his level of play prior to the all-star break(which is based solely off numbers since you clearly don't remember that season, or didn't follow the entire league) is irrelevant to whether he was close.

However if we want to talk about all-star caliber and use that as a way to judge Odom's worth as a player, then why would we only judge him based on what happened before the all-star break? Why not look at his entire season and judge whether it was all-star caliber? Of course the reason is because it doesn't fit your agenda. By the way, Odom was the Eastern Conference Player Of The Month for March.

Just admit you're wrong with what you're arguing about and move on. It will save us both time and save you further embarrassment.

[DMAVS41]

Damn you know you are a legend when dropping 28/6/5 on .50/40/.77 is a "pedestrian". :oldlol:

It is when you have games of 7 of 21 and 6 of 18....and then quit in the 2nd half of a game 7.

I should say pedestrian for an elite player. The point being simple. If Kobe had played great...they would have won.

[DMAVS41]

Yeah I looked at 07 Cavs roster. It shows me that 07 Cavs were a top 4 defensive team. It shows me that they beat two .500 clubs, upset the Pistons and then were swept in the Finals. Digging a little deeper it shows me the Cavs dominated the Pistons defensively 4 out 6 games. It shows me Boobie Gibson dropping 31 points on 7-9 shooting in the final game. Am I supposed to believe that is all trumped by the fact that Lamar Odom was "productive" in a couple series in which the other team scored efficiently and quickly at will. :confusedshrug:

Wait. Who is saying that Kobe had as much help as Lebron those years? I certainly haven't.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I've acknowledged Cleveland's defense numerous times, as well as their rebounding. I'm not arguing that Kobe had as much help as Lebron from '05-'07 or was in as good of a position to win, especially considering conferences. I've stated the exact opposite in this thread. We're actually in agreement over this. My only problem is with Eliteballer intentionally excluding Odom and including Lebron's best teammates(including 2 who never played together) for no other purpose other than deceiving and now you somehow trying to justify it.



Anyone who watched the NBA closely in 2004 will remember Odom being mentioned as a an all-star candidate.

I shouldn't waste time doing this, but I'll dig up numerous mentions of it.

1/14/04 Miami Herald

2/1/04 Miami Herald

2/3/04 Miami Herald

2/3/04 USA Today http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/allstar/2004-02-03-reserves_x.htm

2/4/04 NBA.com

2/4/04 San Antonio Express-News

2/5/04 Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Is that enough for you?

And as far as your comment about why would Miami's record after the all-star break be relevant? I'm pretty sure you're intentionally making me dumb it down for you. You couldn't possibly be this stupid and manage to turn on a computer. But anyway, I'll play along. I have this long, so what's one more time? It's relevant because I mentioned that Odom was in fact close, which I backed up. Your opinion on whether his level of play prior to the all-star break(which is based solely off numbers since you clearly don't remember that season, or didn't follow the entire league) is irrelevant to whether he was close.

However if we want to talk about all-star caliber and use that as a way to judge Odom's worth as a player, then why would we only judge him based on what happened before the all-star break? Why not look at his entire season and judge whether it was all-star caliber? Of course the reason is because it doesn't fit your agenda. By the way, Odom was the Eastern Conference Player Of The Month for March.

Just admit you're wrong with what you're arguing about and move on. It will save us both time and save you further embarrassment.

I deeply apologize. Rookie Dwayne Wade thought he had an all star caliber season so did his coach. The Miami herald even put their neck on the line and said he had a "decent chance". Clearly that proves that Lamar Odom beyond a reasonable doubt was close to making an all star team. :roll:

[ShaqAttack3234]

I deeply apologize. Rookie Dwayne Wade thought he had an all star caliber season so did his coach. The Miami herald even put their neck on the line and said he had a "decent chance". Clearly that proves that Lamar Odom beyond a reasonable doubt was close to making an all star team. :roll:

This is really the best you can come up with? I pulled that up in a few minutes and prior to that was going off memory. I remembered him being mentioned quite a bit as having an all-star caliber season in 2004 with some saying he was snubbed, and pulled up 7 articles rather quickly. I told you, I'll find more if it's really necessary. It's probably pointless for me to waste time with you, but it's funny watching you dig yourself an even deeper hole and get weaker and weaker with your responses.

But why am I arguing with you? You clearly didn't follow the NBA closely in 2004, assuming you even watched basketball at all back then.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

It is when you have games of 7 of 21 and 6 of 18....and then quit in the 2nd half of a game 7.

I should say pedestrian for an elite player. The point being simple. If Kobe had played great...they would have won.

Game 1 vs DET 5-15
Game 2 vs DET 7-19
Game 7 vs DET 3-11

:confusedshrug:

The Suns had a 132.2 offensive rating in Game 7 vs the Lakers. I would be surprised if the Lakers have ever won a playoff game while getting that destroyed defensively. I don't see why Kobe being more aggressive offensively in the second half would have changed that. :confusedshrug:

[TonyMontana]

I've acknowledged Cleveland's defense numerous times, as well as their rebounding. I'm not arguing that Kobe had as much help as Lebron from '05-'07 or was in as good of a position to win, especially considering conferences. I've stated the exact opposite in this thread. We're actually in agreement over this. My only problem is with Eliteballer intentionally excluding Odom and including Lebron's best teammates(including 2 who never played together) for no other purpose other than deceiving and now you somehow trying to justify it.



Anyone who watched the NBA closely in 2004 will remember Odom being mentioned as a an all-star candidate.

I shouldn't waste time doing this, but I'll dig up numerous mentions of it.

1/14/04 Miami Herald

2/1/04 Miami Herald

2/3/04 Miami Herald

2/3/04 USA Today http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/allstar/2004-02-03-reserves_x.htm

2/4/04 NBA.com

2/4/04 San Antonio Express-News

2/5/04 Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Is that enough for you?

And as far as your comment about why would Miami's record after the all-star break be relevant? I'm pretty sure you're intentionally making me dumb it down for you. You couldn't possibly be this stupid and manage to turn on a computer. But anyway, I'll play along. I have this long, so what's one more time? It's relevant because I mentioned that Odom was in fact close, which I backed up. Your opinion on whether his level of play prior to the all-star break(which is based solely off numbers since you clearly don't remember that season, or didn't follow the entire league) is irrelevant to whether he was close.

However if we want to talk about all-star caliber and use that as a way to judge Odom's worth as a player, then why would we only judge him based on what happened before the all-star break? Why not look at his entire season and judge whether it was all-star caliber? Of course the reason is because it doesn't fit your agenda. By the way, Odom was the Eastern Conference Player Of The Month for March.

Just admit you're wrong with what you're arguing about and move on. It will save us both time and save you further embarrassment.

:applause: :applause:

Great post dude, but I wouldn't waste your time with these guys. The dude was playing with power rangers in 2004, you think he would know which players were being talked about as all-stars? He probably doesn't even know that Pat Riley was messing around with the Clippers that year flip flopping offers between Elton Brand and Lamar Odom forcing the Clippers to put all their money in one of them while he snagged the other.

Lol @ the dude still trying to deny after you destroyed him with the links/quotes from 2004. Typical teenage Kobe stan.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

This is really the best you can come up with? I pulled that up in a few minutes and prior to that was going off memory. I remembered him being mentioned quite a bit as having an all-star caliber season in 2004 with some saying he was snubbed, and pulled up 7 articles rather quickly. I told you, I'll find more if it's really necessary. It's probably pointless for me to waste time with you, but it's funny watching you dig yourself an even deeper hole and get weaker and weaker with your responses.

But why am I arguing with you? You clearly didn't follow the NBA closely in 2004, assuming you even watched basketball at all back then.

You are absolutely right. I didn't follow the 21-27 Miami Heat in 2004. Busted. I was focused on the Shaq-Kobe-Malone-Payton circus, I'll try to memorize the local beat news storylines from irrelevant teams ten years ago more closely from now on.

[DMAVS41]

Game 1 vs DET 5-15
Game 2 vs DET 7-19
Game 7 vs DET 3-11

:confusedshrug:

The Suns had a 132.2 offensive rating in Game 7 vs the Lakers. I would be surprised if the Lakers have ever won a playoff game while getting that destroyed defensively. I don't see why Kobe being more aggressive offensively in the second half would have changed that. :confusedshrug:

And? Lebron had more help. And Kobe was a better player in 06...LOL

That doesn't do anything for you. Still the fact remains that Kobe wasn't great in that 06 series...and doesn't change the fact that you always conviently ignore Odom.

I'll ask again. Who here has said that Lebron didn't have more help? Because Shaq and I certainly haven't.

You just happen to ignore Odom and not focus on the shortcomings of Kobe.

[ShaqAttack3234]

:applause: :applause:

Great post dude, but I wouldn't waste your time with these guys. The dude was playing with power rangers in 2004, you think he would know which players were being talked about as all-stars? He probably doesn't even know that Pat Riley was messing around with the Clippers that year flip flopping offers between Elton Brand and Lamar Odom forcing the Clippers to put all their money in one of them while he snagged the other.

Lol @ the dude still trying to deny after you destroyed him with the links/quotes from 2004. Typical teenage Kobe stan.

:oldlol: Look at his last rebuttal. As I said, they get weaker and weaker each time he tried to respond.


You are absolutely right. I didn't follow the 21-27 Miami Heat in 2004. Busted. I was focused on the Shaq-Kobe-Malone-Payton circus, I'll try to memorize the local beat news storylines from irrelevant teams ten years ago more closely from now on.

43-39 Heat who had a really nice playoff run and a talented young team.

But you just admitted you didn't watch Odom and Miami in 2004, so why would you try to talk about his season? If you didn't follow them, then how could you possibly be qualified to speak on the subject?

Funny thing is, I followed both LA and Miami enough to at least have an idea with what was going on, despite not living in either team's market. I didn't get my information from Miami papers, he was talked about as a candidate, and at times, a snub after the fact on sports shows. Unfortunately, I can't go back in time 9 years and show you that, so I did the next best thing which is searching through newspaper articles from 2004.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

2009 dwight would be the best player in the western conference this year. Rip, you are a bitter salty and retarded hoe
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

And? Lebron had more help. And Kobe was a better player in 06...LOL

That doesn't do anything for you. Still the fact remains that Kobe wasn't great in that 06 series...and doesn't change the fact that you always conviently ignore Odom.

I'll ask again. Who here has said that Lebron didn't have more help? Because Shaq and I certainly haven't.

You just happen to ignore Odom and not focus on the shortcomings of Kobe.

I recognized Odom's production, just pointed out that his defensive impact wasn't much since the Lakers were creamed defensively. That's not ignoring him. I don't have the slightest idea of how gaga you expect me to get about Odom's stat line if Kobe's was "pedestrian".

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:oldlol: Look at his last rebuttal. As I said, they get weaker and weaker each time he tried to respond.



43-39 Heat who had a really nice playoff run and a talented young team.

But you just admitted you didn't watch Odom and Miami in 2004, so why would you try to talk about his season? If you didn't follow them, then how could you possibly be qualified to speak on the subject?

Funny thing is, I followed both LA and Miami enough to at least have an idea with what was going on, despite not living in either team's market. I didn't get my information from Miami papers, he was talked about as a candidate, and at times, a snub after the fact on sports shows. Unfortunately, I can't go back in time 9 years and show you that, so I did the next best thing which is searching through newspaper articles from 2004.

Oh snap 43-39. :bowdown: :bowdown: I'm just surprised your plethora of articles are mostly based in Miami or quote his coach and teammates. I'm sure Odom missing the all star team in 04 must have made national news. :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

I recognized Odom's production, just pointed out that his defensive impact wasn't much since the Lakers were creamed defensively. That's not ignoring him. I don't have the slightest idea of how gaga you expect me to get about Odom's stat line if Kobe's was "pedestrian".

Are you really this dense.

When you talk about a players help...you list the key players first. With Kobe fans like you...it's literally the opposite.

Nobody is asking you to do anything other than just list Odom...a 19/11/5 player in the 06 playoffs...when you talk about Kobe's help. Rather than immediately going to lesser players. It would literally be like talking about the Heat this year without mentioning Bosh. Just wouldn't make sense.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

http://i.imgur.com/LLenowz.png

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Are you really this dense.

When you talk about a players help...you list the key players first. With Kobe fans like you...it's literally the opposite.

Nobody is asking you to do anything other than just list Odom...a 19/11/5 player in the 06 playoffs...when you talk about Kobe's help. Rather than immediately going to lesser players. It would literally be like talking about the Heat this year without mentioning Bosh. Just wouldn't make sense.

Of course that wouldn't make sense. Bosh is an 8 time all star. Odom had a "decent chance"* to make an all star team in 04 once.

*per the Miami Herald

[ShaqAttack3234]

Oh snap 43-39. :bowdown: :bowdown: I'm just surprised your plethora of articles are mostly based in Miami or quote his coach and teammates. I'm sure Odom missing the all star team in 04 must have made national news. :oldlol:

If you follow the NBA, there are a number of players you're aware of being talked about as possible all-stars. Of course, not all make the team, but it's never national news. Only reason I brought up the talk about Odom being talked about as an all-star that year is because you said he was never close.

Of course, the majority of the articles are from the Miami area. It's usually the case that the majority of articles focusing on a player(unless it's a superstar like Lebron or Kobe) are written around the area they play in. Though not all the links were from Miami area publications. In fact, 4 out of the 7 weren't.

It's funny when someone who isn't particularly intelligent just can't admit their wrong, especially since the topic really isn't a big deal, and in reality, doesn't hurt your agenda to prop up Kobe much. Though you're so paranoid about anything threatening your agenda that you'll refuse to acknowledge anything that doesn't fall perfectly inline with it.

My goal here is not to diminish Kobe, I haven't done that once in this thread. I've always said Kobe was better than Lebron in '06 and '07 as well. My only goal here is to expose people who are lying/misleading or speaking about things they simply know nothing about.

You fall into the latter category since by your own admission, you know nothing about the '04 Heat.

[kamil]

Kobe:

* 2004-2005 | 34 - 48 record = missed the playoffs
* 2005-2006 | 45 - 37 record = lost in the first round
* 2006-2007 | 42 - 40 record = lost in the first round (after this season, Kobe publicly demanded to be traded (http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/3446/kobe-bryant-says-he-d-like-to-be-traded))

I think this season should be added to your list for comedic value;

* 2012-2013 | 45-37 = first round exit (swept)

Hilarious to see Godbe put up those kind of numbers WITH superstars and potentially 3 other hall of famers.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

If you follow the NBA, there are a number of players you're aware of being talked about as possible all-stars. Of course, not all make the team, but it's never national news. Only reason I brought up the talk about Odom being talked about as an all-star that year is because you said he was never close.

Of course, the majority of the articles are from the Miami area. It's usually the case that the majority of articles focusing on a player(unless it's a superstar like Lebron or Kobe) are written around the area they play in. Though not all the links were from Miami area publications. In fact, 4 out of the 7 weren't.

It's funny when someone who isn't particularly intelligent just can't admit their wrong, especially since the topic really isn't a big deal, and in reality, doesn't hurt your agenda to prop up Kobe much. Though you're so paranoid about anything threatening your agenda that you'll refuse to acknowledge anything that doesn't fall perfectly inline with it.

My goal here is not to diminish Kobe, I haven't done that once in this thread. I've always said Kobe was better than Lebron in '06 and '07 as well. My only goal here is to expose people who are lying/misleading or speaking about things they simply know nothing about.

You fall into the latter category since by your own admission, you know nothing about the '04 Heat.

You do realize that there is a different between a "decent chance" and "being considered" and "close" right. Ron Paul was being considered as a Presidential candidate. Mitt Romney had a decent chance. Neither of them were close. Show me the reserve all star vote counts and show Odom on deck. That's close. :facepalm

[ShaqAttack3234]

You do realize that there is a different between a "decent chance" and "being considered" and "close" right. Ron Paul was being considered as a Presidential candidate. Mitt Romney had a decent chance. Neither of them were close. Show me the reserve all star vote counts and show Odom on deck. That's close. :facepalm

When a number of people talk about you as a candidate and then after it, a snub, I'd call that close.

What do you mean voting? The coaches pick the reserves, remember?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

When a number of people talk about you as a candidate and then after it, a snub, I'd call that close.

What do you mean voting? The coaches pick the reserves, remember?

I don't. I don't know where you are from but the word "candidate" is thrown around in American media the most every 4 years when a handful of clowns with no chance to win the presidency pretend otherwise.

Lebron James was the national snub. Lamar Odom and others were just additional filler to finish out the articles. Who should have Lamar Odom replaced on the all star team?

Well how do the coaches pick? Do they vote or just stand around and look at each other? :facepalm

[ShaqAttack3234]

I don't. I don't know where you are from but the word "candidate" is thrown around in American media the most every 4 years when a handful of clowns with no chance to win the presidency pretend otherwise.

Lebron James was the national snub. Lamar Odom and others were just additional filler to finish out the articles. Who should have Lamar Odom replaced on the all star team?

Well how do the coaches pick? Do they vote or just stand around and look at each other? :facepalm

If you have access to the coaches votes then be my guest, post them. I wouldn't know where to find those or if they're available.

As far as players in the East I thought Odom was more deserving then? Definitely Jamaal Magloire, and right there with Michael Redd and Kenyon Martin.

[DMAVS41]

Do we really have to play this game. Anyone that has followed the NBA closely at all knows what Odom was and how he was thought of around the league since 04.

A super talented borderline all-star type player that was incredibly versatile, but a little inconsistent.

A player that is an ideal 3rd option on a title contending team.

Labeling in a certain way is pointless...almost as pointless as worrying about whether or not he almost made the all star team one year.

And I find it funny that just because Bosh made the all star team in the past..he warrants mentioning, but because Odom didn't. He isn't worth mentioning.

When in reality, Bosh and Odom play very similar roles in terms of impact as 3rd options.

Which really just plays into the whole BS thing about worrying about things like all star games to begin with.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Do we really have to play this game. Anyone that has followed the NBA closely at all knows what Odom was and how he was thought of around the league since 04.

A super talented borderline all-star type player that was incredibly versatile, but a little inconsistent.

A player that is an ideal 3rd option on a title contending team.

Labeling in a certain way is pointless...almost as pointless as worrying about whether or not he almost made the all star team one year.

And I find it funny that just because Bosh made the all star team in the past..he warrants mentioning, but because Odom didn't. He isn't worth mentioning.

When in reality, Bosh and Odom play very similar roles in terms of impact as 3rd options.

Which really just plays into the whole BS thing about worrying about things like all star games to begin with.

The typical ideal 3rd option on a title winning team is a HOFer and an all star. Lamar Odom was fine roleplayer but in the context of championship winning 3rd options he is well below average.

[DMAVS41]

The typical ideal 3rd option on a title winning team is a HOFer and an all star. Lamar Odom was fine roleplayer but in the context of championship winning 3rd options he is well below average.

Below average if he had to be the franchise player on a team? Or below average in his actual play and production in his role as a 3rd option?

Because I actually think Odom's versatility on both ends and his rebounding was equally as impactful as what Bosh brings to Miami in his limited role as 3rd option.

And Shaq said it earlier and I totally agree with it. Why judge players outside of the role they play? Who cares what Gasol did as a franchise player? Even though he did pretty damn well considering his circumstances. He's a 2nd banana...and a great one at that. You might rather have current James Harden as your franchise player over 10 Gasol or something...but I know I'd much rather have Gasol as my 2nd option.

Do you really not follow that line of thinking?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Below average if he had to be the franchise player on a team? Or below average in his actual play and production in his role as a 3rd option?

Because I actually think Odom's versatility on both ends and his rebounding was equally as impactful as what Bosh brings to Miami in his limited role as 3rd option.

And Shaq said it earlier and I totally agree with it. Why judge players outside of the role they play? Who cares what Gasol did as a franchise player? Even though he did pretty damn well considering his circumstances. He's a 2nd banana...and a great one at that. You might rather have current James Harden as your franchise player over 10 Gasol or something...but I know I'd much rather have Gasol as my 2nd option.

Do you really not follow that line of thinking?

He averaged 11/9 for those championship runs. Ran hot from the 3 in 09. Thats not ideal as a franchise player, 2nd option or typical 3rd option on a championship winning teams in NBA history. That's a fine role player though.

[Svendiggity]

Below average if he had to be the franchise player on a team? Or below average in his actual play and production in his role as a 3rd option?

Because I actually think Odom's versatility on both ends and his rebounding was equally as impactful as what Bosh brings to Miami in his limited role as 3rd option.

And Shaq said it earlier and I totally agree with it. Why judge players outside of the role they play? Who cares what Gasol did as a franchise player? Even though he did pretty damn well considering his circumstances. He's a 2nd banana...and a great one at that. You might rather have current James Harden as your franchise player over 10 Gasol or something...but I know I'd much rather have Gasol as my 2nd option.

Do you really not follow that line of thinking?

Agree.

It's all about understanding the emotions of a team. Just becase Harden is a better first option, it doesn't make him a better player. Gasol falls into his role on a whatever team you throw him on. Harden, Dwight, and other guys with egos are a different story. An ego is fine if you can back it up. Kobe, Lebron, Jordan, Shaq, etc, can be Alpha on any team. The other guys just need to accept their role. Bosh and Gasol understand this, many other players of their calibur do not.

[DMAVS41]

He averaged 11/9 for those championship runs. Ran hot from the 3 in 09. Thats not ideal as a franchise player, 2nd option or typical 3rd option on a championship winning teams in NBA history. That's a fine role player though.

What?

Bosh averaged 14/8/1 last year

Odom averaged 11/9/2 over the two titles

Odom is certainly the more versatile and impactful defender as well. So somehow Bosh is completely different because he had previously made all star teams? Non sense garbage...

[Svendiggity]

Bosh and Odom have the same amount of impact on a Championship team, it just depends on what the team needs. Lakers needed a physical presence on the boards and a versatile player on offense and defense. Heat need a clutch mid-range shooter, capable defener and high IQ offensive player.

As a GM I'd have to look at my team before I picked one over the other.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What?

Bosh averaged 14/8/1 last year

Odom averaged 11/9/2 over the two titles

Odom is certainly the more versatile and impactful defender as well. So somehow Bosh is completely different because he had previously made all star teams? Non sense garbage...

Not because he previously made all star teams but because he continues to make them. Not almost make them. Not being considered to possibly make them. Not a candidate to make them. Not has a decent chance to make them. He's actually selected to them. 8 times now. He's a future HOFer. Lamar Odom is Mr. Kardashian. The fat one.

[DMAVS41]

Not because he previously made all star teams but because he continues to make them. Not almost make them. Not being considered to possibly make them. Not a candidate to make them. Not has a decent chance to make them. He's actually selected to them. 8 times now. He's a future HOFer. Lamar Odom is Mr. Kardashian. The fat one.

So what?

Do you not see the double standard? You judge players on impact and what they do on the basketball court.

You listed Odom's stats 11/9/2 and made no mention of his superior defense...say he's just a role player.

Then you list a player that gives you 14/8/1 and plays worse defense and say he's different.

It is a huge double standard and exemplifies the exact problem with all these "labels" and people talking about what a team would be like led by Odom or Gasol. When that has no relevance when discussing them in the roles they played on title teams.

You really think Bosh has that much bigger of an impact than Odom? How? Why?

They could not be more similar in terms of impact the last 2 years in the playoffs. Yet we have to all pretend otherwise because Bosh makes the all star game every February?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So what?

Do you not see the double standard? You judge players on impact and what they do on the basketball court.

You listed Odom's stats 11/9/2 and made no mention of his superior defense...say he's just a role player.

Then you list a player that gives you 14/8/1 and plays worse defense and say he's different.

It is a huge double standard and exemplifies the exact problem with all these "labels" and people talking about what a team would be like led by Odom or Gasol. When that has no relevance when discussing them in the roles they played on title teams.

You really think Bosh has that much bigger of an impact than Odom? How? Why?

They could not be more similar in terms of impact the last 2 years in the playoffs. Yet we have to all pretend otherwise because Bosh makes the all star game every February?

Role players play defense. Why is it disrespectful to focus on offense when you are the one who brought up third options (aka offense) in the first place? Do you mean 3rd best player? Odom wasn't a better player than Bosh.

[DMAVS41]

Role players play defense. Why is it disrespectful to focus on offense when you are the one who brought up third options (aka offense) in the first place? Do you mean 3rd best player? Odom wasn't a better player than Bosh.

3rd option implies 3rd best player.

I'm asking you why a player that averages 14/8/1 is worth mentioning and you seem to have a very high affinity for because he makes all star teams...

While a player that averages 11/9/2 and plays better defense isn't worth mentioning and is simply just a role player.

Do you really not see the double standard? You defined Odom by his stats...and talked highly of Bosh. Do you just assume Bosh had better stats? What point are you trying to make? Are you trying to say that there is a noticeable difference in impact between Bosh on the Heat in the playoffs these last 2 years than what Odom did in the title runs?

[PickernRoller]

Lol at Odom = Bosh. How f'cking stupid can you be to even suggest his impact is anywhere near that of Bosh. Or that it's somehow comparable. Throw context out the window....purposefully.

There is a difference between being the franchise player of your team, carrying all the attention, carrying the load vs. freeloading off superstar in Kobe Bryant and Dwayne Wade. How does anyone take Gino aka DMavs seriously is beyond me. There is no comparison as to the difference in the level of play that a proven star in Bosh brings in comparison to a role player like Odom.

But but but but the stats say...:roll: :roll: :roll:

lol at the third option discussion as if it matters - equating a players value by bringing down the "ceiling of play".....meaning third option. Bottomline Bosh can lead Miami with both Wade and Lebron out....just like he did with the Raptors, whether to the same record or not that's not of importance. Odom can not and would not lead a team in the NBA to 10 wins in a season if that depended on his play - when he was at his best - if as a first option. But but but the role - third option....:oldlol: :oldlol:

So Wade = Pau, KG = Kareem, Terry = Robinson.

Keep on.....

[DMAVS41]

Lol at Odom = Bosh. How f'cking stupid can you be to even suggest his impact is anywhere near that of Bosh. Or that it's somehow comparable. Throw context out the window....purposefully.

There is a difference between being the franchise player of your team, carrying all the attention, carrying the load vs. freeloading off superstar in Kobe Bryant and Dwayne Wade. How does anyone take Gino aka DMavs seriously is beyond me. There is no comparison as to the difference in the level of play that a proven star in Bosh brings in comparison to a role player like Odom.

But but but but the stats say...:roll: :roll: :roll:

lol at the third option discussion as if it matters - equating a players value by bringing down the "ceiling of play".....meaning third option. Bottomline Bosh can lead Miami with both Wade and Lebron out....just like he did with the Raptors, whether to the same record or not that's not of importance. Odom can not and would not lead a team in the NBA to 10 wins in a season if that depended on his play - when he was at his best - if as a first option. But but but the role - third option....:oldlol: :oldlol:

So Wade = Pau, KG = Kareem, Terry = Robinson.

Keep on.....

What on earth are you talking about?

It doesn't matter what these guys can do in other roles...it matters what they do in their role they play. Bosh's impact is somewhat marginalized playing 3rd option on a team. It just is...especially because he isn't a very good rebounder or defender...although he's improving.

Stats? I responded to Yao saying Odom was merely a 11/9/2 player. Well, Bosh is a 14/8/1 player last year in the playoffs. And is a 14/9/1 player so far this year. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Bosh is having a much different kind of impact than Odom did during the two title runs. They are playing similar minutes and producing very similarly on the court. Both have a number of WTF games in which they don't do much...etc.

This is my exact problem with how stupid people are. Who cares what Odom would do as the franchise guy. He's playing 3rd option on a team...that is what we care about. Not to mention...Odom as the franchise guy on a bad team in Toronto playing 35 plus minutes and taking more shots etc....would have roughly been a 18/11/5 type player. As good as Bosh in that role? No, but you people are nuts to not understand what Odom could do.

[Doranku]

What?

Bosh averaged 14/8/1 last year

Odom averaged 11/9/2 over the two titles

Odom is certainly the more versatile and impactful defender as well. So somehow Bosh is completely different because he had previously made all star teams? Non sense garbage...

Defensive versatility might be the most overrated aspect of basketball on this forum. Name me one way in which this defensive versatility was utilized in either of the Lakers championship runs.

Sure, Odom could probably guard multiple positions, but why does this matter when other Laker players who play those other positions could do it better?

[DMAVS41]

Defensive versatility might be the most overrated aspect of basketball on this forum. Name me one way in which this defensive versatility was utilized in either of the Lakers championship runs.

Sure, Odom could probably guard multiple positions, but why does this matter when other Laker players who play those other positions could do it better?

It is interesting to me that everyone just imagines defense to be solely about 1 on 1 matchups. That isn't the case...at all really. Odom could do a lot within a defensive scheme that Bosh can't do. And yes...some of that means being able to switch on to smaller players while being able to guard the post as well.

Other things like trapping ball handlers, hedging screens, recovering help side.

But lets not play semantics. Odom was the superior defensive player...and the impact of that is worth mentioning in a comparison of the two.

So I'm trying to figure out why someone here can say that Odom is merely a 11/9/2 role player. But Bosh is a 14/8/1 superstar. Makes no sense and shows you how idiotic labeling of players are.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

It is interesting to me that everyone just imagines defense to be solely about 1 on 1 matchups. That isn't the case...at all really. Odom could do a lot within a defensive scheme that Bosh can't do. And yes...some of that means being able to switch on to smaller players while being able to guard the post as well.

Other things like trapping ball handlers, hedging screens, recovering help side.

But lets not play semantics. Odom was the superior defensive player...and the impact of that is worth mentioning in a comparison of the two.

So I'm trying to figure out why someone here can say that Odom is merely a 11/9/2 role player. But Bosh is a 14/8/1 superstar. Makes no sense and shows you how idiotic labeling of players are.

This is how...

1. Gasol is not a superstar
2. Well he is a HOFer that means he is a superstar
3. Bosh is a HOFer too that must mean he is a superstar also
4. Well Odom had a "decent chance" to make an all star team once in 04
5. That doesn't make him a superstar
6. Well he put 11/9
7. That's a great roleplayer
8. Well he plays defense
9. Still a roleplayer

:confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

This is how...

1. Gasol is not a superstar
2. Well he is a HOFer that means he is a superstar
3. Bosh is a HOFer too that must mean he is a superstar also
4. Well Odom had a "decent chance" to make an all star team once in 04
5. That doesn't make him a superstar
6. Well he put 11/9
7. That's a great roleplayer
8. Well he plays defense
9. Still a roleplayer

:confusedshrug:

What did Bosh do last year in the playoffs and this year in the playoffs so far to separate himself from Odom during the back to back title runs for the Lakers? That is all that matters.

And the answer, of course, is very little to nothing...

I truly hope you actually don't think that what Bosh did in Toronto means anything for this conversation.

[Bandito]

It is interesting to me that everyone just imagines defense to be solely about 1 on 1 matchups. That isn't the case...at all really. Odom could do a lot within a defensive scheme that Bosh can't do. And yes...some of that means being able to switch on to smaller players while being able to guard the post as well.

Other things like trapping ball handlers, hedging screens, recovering help side.

But lets not play semantics. Odom was the superior defensive player...and the impact of that is worth mentioning in a comparison of the two.

So I'm trying to figure out why someone here can say that Odom is merely a 11/9/2 role player. But Bosh is a 14/8/1 superstar. Makes no sense and shows you how idiotic labeling of players are.It is because of his Raptor days when he was averaging stats like 26 and 9?

Also are we going to pretend he might not average better stats (more ppg) if he was not playing with 20+ shooters in dwyane and Lebron?

[DMAVS41]

It is because of his Raptor days when he was averaging stats like 26 and 9?

Also are we going to pretend he might not average better stats (more ppg) if he was not playing with 20+ shooters in dwyane and Lebron?

And what relevance does that have when evaluating him as a 3rd option? None.

In Toronto he was playing 40 mpg. Now he plays 31. In Toronto he was the first option taking 18 shots a game. Now he takes 11.

He is playing a 3rd option role...and it matters what he brings to the table in that role for this discussion. Not what he's capable of as a franchise player.

Do you guys realize that a prime Odom as the best player on a bad team...would have been putting up 18/11/5 with ease most likely. Hell, he averaged 19/12/4 over a two year period in the playoffs for the Lakers playing with Kobe.

I'm not saying Odom is as good as Bosh as a first or 2nd option. But in the role of third best player with limited shots and minutes...their impact is very similar.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What did Bosh do last year in the playoffs and this year in the playoffs so far to separate himself from Odom during the back to back title runs for the Lakers? That is all that matters.

And the answer, of course, is very little to nothing...

I truly hope you actually don't think that what Bosh did in Toronto means anything for this conversation.

Of course it does. The entire conversation is based on the convoluted idea that Gasol's superstar status is justified by virtue of being a future HOFer. Bosh spent the majority of his career in Toronto amassing HOF credentials. That's what we are talking about. Nobody was claiming Bosh had superstar production in the playoffs as the 3rd option but rather by using the definition of superstar provided to us by you clowns that Bosh is Lebron's 2nd superstar. Now you guys don't want to use that definition anymore? :oldlol:

[Bandito]

And what relevance does that have when evaluating him as a 3rd option? None.

In Toronto he was playing 40 mpg. Now he plays 31. In Toronto he was the first option taking 18 shots a game. Now he takes 11.

He is playing a 3rd option role...and it matters what he brings to the table in that role for this discussion. Not what he's capable of as a franchise player.

Do you guys realize that a prime Odom as the best player on a bad team...would have been putting up 18/11/5 with ease most likely. Hell, he averaged 19/12/4 over a two year period in the playoffs for the Lakers playing with Kobe.

I'm not saying Odom is as good as Bosh as a first or 2nd option. But in the role of third best player with limited shots and minutes...their impact is very similar.Oh I misinterpret what you meant. You are right in that context then.

[DMAVS41]

Of course it does. The entire conversation is based on the convoluted idea that Gasol's superstar status is justified by virtue of being a future HOFer. Bosh spent the majority of his career in Toronto amassing HOF credentials. That's what we are talking about. Nobody was claiming Bosh had superstar production in the playoffs as the 3rd option but rather by using the definition of superstar provided to us by you clowns that Bosh is Lebron's 2nd superstar. Now you guys don't want to use that definition anymore? :oldlol:

That isn't the conversation we've been having at all. And you know it.

I don't care how you label these guys...could care less. But I do know acting like Odom is some throw away player is just not accurate. And you know that as well. Yet you do it all the time. Why? Because it doesn't fit the agenda that Kobe had a 19/12/4 player next to him in the playoffs for two years in 06 and 07.

What did Bosh do in the playoffs in 07? 18/9/3 on sub 40% shooting...and that was him in a first option role. Granted, he did produce much better in 08.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

That isn't the conversation we've been having at all. And you know it.

I don't care how you label these guys...could care less. But I do know acting like Odom is some throw away player is just not accurate. And you know that as well. Yet you do it all the time. Why? Because it doesn't fit the agenda that Kobe had a 19/12/4 player next to him in the playoffs for two years in 06 and 07.

What did Bosh do in the playoffs in 07? 18/9/3 on sub 40% shooting...and that was him in a first option role. Granted, he did produce much better in 08.

If you don't care about labels then why are you consistently whining about it. You obviously care that I label Odom a roleplayer. Which he was. :confusedshrug:

[KingBeasley08]

DMAVS41 tearing shit up :cheers:

[Chrono90]

5>1

[DMAVS41]

If you don't care about labels then why are you consistently whining about it. You obviously care that I label Odom a roleplayer. Which he was. :confusedshrug:

I care when you call Odom essentially a throw away player not worth mentioning...and then refer to Bosh as a superstar. When, in the role he's playing, Bosh is literally 5% better than Odom at best.

Just isn't consistent or honest. You know this...we know this. You've been called out on it...and just refuse to stop.

And we all know why.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I care when you call Odom essentially a throw away player not worth mentioning...and then refer to Bosh as a superstar. When, in the role he's playing, Bosh is literally 5% better than Odom at best.

Just isn't consistent or honest. You know this...we know this. You've been called out on it...and just refuse to stop.

And we all know why.

I never called him a throw away player. I called him a role player. And once again for a man above labels I don't know why the LABEL I place on Odom bothers you. But right I'm the one lacking consistency due to personal grudges. :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

I never called him a throw away player. I called him a role player. And once again for a man above labels I don't know why the LABEL I place on Odom bothers you. But right I'm the one lacking consistency due to personal grudges. :oldlol:

No. It's that you don't mention Odom...and then refer to Bosh as a superstar. When they are essentially the same player in their roles. And even in the 07 year with Odom as the 2nd option and Bosh as the first option...Odom outproduced Bosh in the playoffs.

Do you not see this?

[KingBeasley08]

I don't know why Yao Ming's foot is here. Nikka's getting killed

[Yao Ming's Foot]

No. It's that you don't mention Odom...and then refer to Bosh as a superstar. When they are essentially the same player.

Do you not see this/

You are missing half of the conversation.

Gasol was labeled a superstar and the reasoning provided to us is that he was a future HOFer.
We pointed out that with that definition Bosh is also a "superstar".

Why would I mention Odom in that specific conversation? He doesn't have a chance of making the HOF thus earning "superstar" status.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

And no they are not the same player. :roll:

[DMAVS41]

You are missing half of the conversation.

Gasol was labeled a superstar and the reasoning provided to us is that he was a future HOFer.
We pointed out that with that definition Bosh is also a "superstar".

Why would I mention Odom in that specific conversation? He doesn't have a chance of making the HOF thus earning "superstar" status.

We were talking about your failure to mention Odom when talking about the Lakers in 06 and 07...only mentioning Kwame and Smush...etc.

You got called out on it and ran from it...talking about how Odom isn't worth mentioning because he isn't an all star or some nonsense.

And comparing Bosh to Gasol on the Heat in the playoffs so far? Gasol is easily much more impactful in his role. Not even comparable actually. And that is what should matter. What they are doing to impact the team. And Gasol was vitally more important and impactful in the title runs than Bosh has been this year and last year.

Do you not concede that?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

We were talking about your failure to mention Odom when talking about the Lakers in 06 and 07...only mentioning Kwame and Smush...etc.

You got called out on it and ran from it...talking about how Odom isn't worth mentioning because he isn't an all star or some nonsense.

And comparing Bosh to Gasol on the Heat in the playoffs so far? Gasol is easily much more impactful in his role. Not even comparable actually. And that is what should matter. What they are doing to impact the team. And Gasol was vitally more important and impactful in the title runs than Bosh has been this year and last year.

Do you not concede that?

No I don't conede that. It wasn't me who failed to mention the powerhouse that is Lamar Odom. Check the tapes. :confusedshrug:

[Unbiased_one]

.

:

f

.

They were a great eastern conference(*) team.
:



East vs West?

. Not to mention the eastern playoffs is a joke.

You guys claim that the west is way better than the east right?

Time for some truth...as can be seen in this link: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0ByzBw_2U4WaPX0t3SWpKRzZHQWM/edit?usp=sharing.

If you observe the linearised statistic (I'm using a conservative quadratic measure as opposed to arguable exponents of 2.5-3), then you will see that the west is a couple of wins better per team over the last 4 years, and in 08-09 the east was actually slightly better. That's not significant.

I'm not a lebron fan, but you guys are obsessed with him, so as you can see here (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0ByzBw_2U4WaPWkN2OFUybTV3Q3c/edit?usp=sharing), lebron has been roughly the same against the east and west in his playoff years, which debunks to a large extent the theory that he only made the finals cause he was in the east.

Please don't make any comments which contain the phrase "APR 2013" as arguing that I don't know what I'm talking about based on the fact that I just joined this forum is stupid and juvenile.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You guys claim that the west is way better than the east right?

Time for some truth...as can be seen in this link: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0ByzBw_2U4WaPX0t3SWpKRzZHQWM/edit?usp=sharing.

If you observe the linearised statistic (I'm using a conservative quadratic measure as opposed to arguable exponents of 2.5-3), then you will see that the west is a couple of wins better per team over the last 4 years, and in 08-09 the east was actually slightly better. That's not significant.

I'm not a lebron fan, but you guys are obsessed with him, so as you can see here (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0ByzBw_2U4WaPWkN2OFUybTV3Q3c/edit?usp=sharing), lebron has been roughly the same against the east and west in his playoff years, which debunks to a large extent the theory that he only made the finals cause he was in the east.

PLease don't make any comments which contain the phrase "APR 2013" as arguing that I don't know what I'm talking about based on the fact that I just joined this forum is stupid and juvenile.

The teams that Lebron specifically beat in the playoffs in the Eastern Conference with the Cavs were collectively mediocre.

The notion that Lebron played well against Western teams in the regular season statswise does nothing to disprove that previous statement of fact.

[Unbiased_one]

The teams that Lebron specifically beat in the playoffs in the Eastern Conference with the Cavs were collectively mediocre.

The notion that Lebron played well against Western teams in the regular season statswise does nothing to disprove that previous statement of fact.

Yes they were mediocre but the lower seeds are by definition mediocre and in the nba in particular the regular season correlates in a significant manner with the playoffs...strong favourites infrequently lose. Assuming that the seeding is relatively representative strength-wise of the conference that it is in (which seems obvious but has to be stated), it seems clear that based on the cavs' regular season splits their probability distributions would be the same (roughly) in the east and the west.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Yes they were mediocre but in the nba in particular the regular season correlates in a significant manner with the playoffs...strong favourites infrequently lose. Assuming that the seeding is relatively representative strength-wise of the conference that it is in (which seems obvious but has to be stated), it seems clear that based on the cavs' regular season splits their probability distributions would be the same (roughly) in the east and the west.

I'm not interested in probability distributions. I'm interested in what actually happened. Who did he actually beat? How good was that team? You are trying to argue vague theory when we are dealing with reality.

[ripthekik]

Yes they were mediocre but the lower seeds are by definition mediocre and in the nba in particular the regular season correlates in a significant manner with the playoffs...strong favourites infrequently lose. Assuming that the seeding is relatively representative strength-wise of the conference that it is in (which seems obvious but has to be stated), it seems clear that based on the cavs' regular season splits their probability distributions would be the same (roughly) in the east and the west.
we should give one single shiiit what one april 2013 poster who got perm banned and now re-registered had to say?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/member.php?u=278120

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Unbiased_one]

I'm not interested in probability distributions. I'm interested in what actually happened. Who did he actually face? How good was that team? You are trying to argue vague theory when we are dealing with reality.

You clearly don't understand what probability is. We can only predict the future and make hypothetical judgements on the past based on what could happen or could have happened. Whenever you ask questions like "Who is the best team in the NBA?" you are making a conditional judgement on the likelihood of that team winning a championship. The fact is that the cavs are likely to have gone just as far in the west as they did in the east each year based on what we can infer from the regular season.

[Unbiased_one]

we should give one single shiiit what one april 2013 poster who got perm banned and now re-registered had to say?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/member.php?u=278120

:roll: :roll: :roll:

I only encountered this forum for the first time this morning. Like I said I'm not interested in you commenting on when I joined: it has no bearing on the stats that I presented to you.

[ripthekik]

I only encountered this forum for the first time this morning. Like I said I'm not interested in you commenting on when I joined: it has no bearing on the stats that I presented to you.
all full of lies :roll: :roll:

i remember with that account on the first day you tried to act all serious and stuff.. then went on a trolling adventure.. once you tried to pull up some stats which no one gave a fuuuck about also :roll: :roll:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You clearly don't understand what probability is. We can only predict the future and make hypothetical judgements on the past based on what could happen or could have happened. Whenever you ask questions like "Who is the best team in the NBA?" you are making a conditional judgement on the likelihood of that team winning a championship. The fact is that the cavs are likely to have gone just as far in the west as they did in the east each year based on what we can infer from the regular season.

Spare me your 2nd grade statistics prowess and you try too hard verbiage.

:oldlol:

[Unbiased_one]

all full of lies :roll: :roll:

i remember with that account on the first day you tried to act all serious and stuff.. then went on a trolling adventure.. once you tried to pull up some stats which no one gave a fuuuck about also :roll: :roll:

I've never been on here before this morning.

Facts are the foundations of any argument (except yours obviously).

[Unbiased_one]

Spare me your 2nd grade statistics prowess and you try too hard verbiage.

:oldlol:

I have a phd in statistical modelling, which was analysing how hodge theory can be used to predict preferences. I work for a professional sports team (not basketball) as a trend analyst.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I have a phd in statistical modelling, which was analysing how hodge theory can be used to predict preferences. I work for a professional sports team (not basketball) as a trend analyst.

Do you have Aspergers syndrome?

[Unbiased_one]

Do you have Aspergers syndrome?

No why? Do you? Not everyone who does maths has asperger's y'know...I'm pretty much as normal as they come (actually based on the level of reasoning that most people on this forum appear to possess, I'm probably a lot more normal than average for here ;))

[Unbiased_one]

ain't you a G

What cause I do math? Probably one of the only things that sets me apart from the rest of the people on here who try to argue stats. I'll bet that the fact I played professional (team) sport is another thing that means I have a more valid opinion than most others.

[avonbarksdale]

kobe - 5 rings
lebron - 1 ring


all that really matters

[Unbiased_one]

The fact that you feel the need to brag about your position is the worst part of you. You may have a point in your stats, to be fair I haven't read it, it's just funny that you brag about your life to justify your claims

He claimed that I had 2nd grade stats skills...I corrected him. Then you tried to insult me, so I tried to show you that I'm not just a math geek. The validity of an argument is not affected by who you are, but it's kind of weird that people wear their join date as some sort of badge and try to dismiss what I say based on the fact that I joined today...


Anyway bragging is pretty much a compulsory requirement to belong to an internet forum dude.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What cause I do math? Probably one of the only things that sets me apart from the rest of the people on here who try to argue stats. I'll bet that the fact I played professional (team) sport is another thing that means I have a more valid opinion than most others.

No one is intimidated by your credentials. It's just not relevant to the current conversation. The thread is now stalled because nobody knows what you are talking about because you in your mind statistically proved a question that nobody asked. That's why I asked if you have some sort of inability to notice social cues.

[Unbiased_one]

kobe - 5 rings
lebron - 1 ring


all that really matters

horry 7 rings
kobe 5 rings

so is it really your opinion that horry is better than kobe?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

He claimed that I had 2nd grade stats skills...I corrected him. Then you tried to insult me, so I tried to show you that I'm not just a math geek. The validity of an argument is not affected by who you are, but it's kind of weird that people wear their join date as some sort of badge and try to dismiss what I say based on the fact that I joined today...


Anyway bragging is pretty much a compulsory requirement to belong to an internet forum dude.

Probability is a second grade math topic. :facepalm

[Unbiased_one]

No one is intimidated by your credentials. It's just not relevant to the current conversation. The thread is now stalled because nobody knows what you are talking about because you in your mind statistically proved a question that nobody asked. That's why I asked if you have some sort of inability to notice social cues.

Every single person who I quoted had at some point in this thread said that the east was shit...so yes it was a question asked. And I didn't prove anything: you can't prove anything that's hypothetical. I only stated my credentials because you said I had second grade stats abilities. Logic is not about intimidation (it's pretty much the opposite really).

[Unbiased_one]

Probability is a second grade math topic. :facepalm

Are you seriously saying that all probability is second grade? Including linearisation and exponential measures? Wow the education system is in way better shape than I thought.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Every single person who I quoted had at some point in this thread said that the east was shit...so yes it was a question asked. And I didn't prove anything: you can't prove anything that's hypothetical. I only stated my credentials because you said I had second grade stats abilities. Logic is not about intimidation (it's pretty much the opposite really).

Is the East shit is a different question that are the teams that Lebron beat in the playoffs shit. :roll:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Are you seriously saying that all probability is second grade? Including linearisation and exponential measures? Wow the education system is in way better shape than I thought.

Yes clearly that's what I said. For such a logical genius you sure are a master at strawman fallacies.

[Unbiased_one]

Is the East shit is a different question that are the teams that Lebron beat in the playoffs shit. :roll:

last time I checked the same teams play in the playoffs. It's not like teams send out totally different players in the playoffs. And if you had bothered to read the link, you would have seen that I was analysing playoff teams. smh

[Unbiased_one]

Yes clearly that's what I said. For such a logical genius you sure are a master at strawman fallacies.

I was just checking. After all you did say that what was in my link was second grade math (earlier on).

[Yao Ming's Foot]

last time I checked the same teams play in the playoffs. It's not like teams send out totally different players in the playoffs. And if you had bothered to read the link, you would have seen that I was analysing playoff teams. smh

Nobody cares how "good" teams are Lebron didn't beat let alone play in the playoffs.

[Unbiased_one]

Nobody cares how "good" teams are Lebron didn't beat let alone play in the playoffs.

Look, obviously some people do care because it seems like on pretty much every thread someone says "Lebron would never have made the finals on the cavs in the west".

Clearly I'm never going to convince you though.

[dh144498]

who cares, Kobe's got 5 rings, Lebron's got 1 so far. Cut the hypothetical crap out.

[Unbiased_one]

who cares, Kobe's got 5 rings, Lebron's got 1 so far. Cut the hypothetical crap out.

Just for the record, I never mentioned kobe at all. IMHO Kobe has had a greater career than lebron so far. I was clearing up one misconception.

BTW the 'rings only' argument is a bad one. It puts horry above kobe, magic, bird etc. If you want a very rough and ready ranking 'mvps + fmvps' tends to work well.

[HeatFanSince88]

who cares, Kobe's got 5 rings, Lebron's got 1 so far. Cut the hypothetical crap out.

http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_assets/190471/rhory_adb_627_070614.jpg

[dh144498]

http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_assets/190471/rhory_adb_627_070614.jpg

he was coming off the bench.... April 2013 know nothing about basketball. :oldlol:

[Chrono90]

Kobe peak is GOD at scoring while very good in other areas of his game.
Lebron peak is very very good in all aspect of his game.

Kobe the better scorer
Lebron the better all around player

Who's better? Not clear cut as of now.
Who wins more title? It all depends on what type of teammates they have. Both are legendary players.

[dh144498]

Just for the record, I never mentioned kobe at all. IMHO Kobe has had a greater career than lebron so far. I was clearing up one misconception.

BTW the 'rings only' argument is a bad one. It puts horry above kobe, magic, bird etc. If you want a very rough and ready ranking 'mvps + fmvps' tends to work well.

if you actually have good arguments, then you'd drop the Horry argument whenever people compare Kobe and Lebron with ring counts. Notice no one ever compares Horry to any other all time greats, why? Ring counts are brought for players near the top. What's Horry's rank? like top 200? :facepalm

[HeatFanSince88]

he was coming off the bench.... April 2013 know nothing about basketball. :oldlol:

7 rings > 5 rings

If you value other things than rings alone, say it next time.

[Himan12]

In terms of accomplishments

kobe > lebron for now

In terms of basketball ability

lebron > kobe

The masses will eventually come to think this way soon enough. When its all said and done both will be top 10 all time but lebron will be looked at as the better player by a fair margin.

[DMAVS41]

7 rings > 5 rings

If you value other things than rings alone, say it next time.

April 2013

Well this thread was hijacked by morons....

[Unbiased_one]

April 2013

Well this thread was hijacked by morons....

you guys are the ones who are saying things like rings are the only things that matter. Even if you go for 'rings as a superstar' you're ranking russell, sharman, havlicek and cousy above anyone else. Do you regard bill russell as indisputably the best player ever?

Also, does my opinion become more valid after a year just cause I happened to join now?

[avonbarksdale]

In terms of accomplishments

kobe > lebron for now

In terms of basketball ability

lebron > kobe

The masses will eventually come to think this way soon enough. When its all said and done both will be top 10 all time but lebron will be looked at as the better player by a fair margin.


kk what are the winning lottery numbers a year from now???

[Bandito]

you guys are the ones who are saying things like rings are the only things that matter. Even if you go for 'rings as a superstar' you're ranking russell, sharman, havlicek and cousy above anyone else. Do you regard bill russell as indisputably the best player ever?

Also, does my opinion become more valid after a year just cause I happened to join now?
No it doesn't. It is because April 2013 members have been proven to be idiots, you are living proof of that.

Of course rings are important but they have to be taken in context.

[DMAVS41]

you guys are the ones who are saying things like rings are the only things that matter. Even if you go for 'rings as a superstar' you're ranking russell, sharman, havlicek and cousy above anyone else. Do you regard bill russell as indisputably the best player ever?

Also, does my opinion become more valid after a year just cause I happened to join now?

I have never said rings are the only thing that matters. Far from it...lol

Just not going to get into the tired talk of Horry bs. It's just stupid.

No. I have MJ as the GOAT. Russell 2nd. I'm not a rings guy at all. But certainly you can understand the difference between comparing Kobe to Lebron using rings...and Kobe to Horry using rings.

It's not about rings...it's the fact that Lebron choked like few superstar players ever have in 11. And while that is conveniently forgotten often here because of last year and this year so far...it should absolutely impact his legacy. Same with a number of Kobe's bad moments for him as well.

But, honestly, we have to see Lebron lead this Heat team to more titles before we really start to place him in certain groups all time.

For example...if he plays great and the Heat win this year...I'm ready to put him in that bottom top 10 group. But if they lose...and Lebron chokes or doesn't play well...it's another huge black mark on his legacy...and rightfully so.

He's got a loaded team playing against relatively weak competition. He has to rattle off titles like Kobe/Shaq did, Bird did, Duncan did, MJ did, Magic did...etc.

That matters. It's about the circumstances each player is given and how they take advantage of those. Nobody should be using the rings argument unless you put it into context. If, for some reason, the Heat dont' win this year. That will only be 1 ring in 3 years on the Heat for Lebron...and that would be a complete failure given the nature of his help and the rest of the league over those 3 years.

Think about it the other way. Imagine what Kobe's legacy would be like if he had lost the finals in 2010. Or he and Shaq lost to Iverson in 01. He'd still be legendary and great...but it would change how we viewed him...and rightfully so.

So it's a valid argument for now in my opinion...especially because Lebron has absolutely no excuses if he doesn't win this year and at least 1 more on this Heat team.

[Himan12]

kk what are the winning lottery numbers a year from now???

Its my opinion based on what I see when I watch them play. This is obviously barring major injury to lebron. So I don't see whats wrong with what I said.

Unless you can specify.

[Unbiased_one]

I have never said rings are the only thing that matters. Far from it...lol

Just not going to get into the tired talk of Horry bs. It's just stupid.

No. I have MJ as the GOAT. Russell 2nd. I'm not a rings guy at all. But certainly you can understand the difference between comparing Kobe to Lebron using rings...and Kobe to Horry using rings.

It's not about rings...it's the fact that Lebron choked like few superstar players ever have in 11. And while that is conveniently forgotten often here because of last year and this year so far...it should absolutely impact his legacy. Same with a number of Kobe's bad moments for him as well.

But, honestly, we have to see Lebron lead this Heat team to more titles before we really start to place him in certain groups all time.

For example...if he plays great and the Heat win this year...I'm ready to put him in that bottom top 10 group. But if they lose...and Lebron chokes or doesn't play well...it's another huge black mark on his legacy...and rightfully so.

He's got a loaded team playing against relatively weak competition. He has to rattle off titles like Kobe/Shaq did, Bird did, Duncan did, MJ did, Magic did...etc.

That matters. It's about the circumstances each player is given and how they take advantage of those. Nobody should be using the rings argument unless you put it into context. If, for some reason, the Heat dont' win this year. That will only be 1 ring in 3 years on the Heat for Lebron...and that would be a complete failure given the nature of his help and the rest of the league over those 3 years.

Think about it the other way. Imagine what Kobe's legacy would be like if he had lost the finals in 2010. Or he and Shaq lost to Iverson in 01. He'd still be legendary and great...but it would change how we viewed him...and rightfully so.

So it's a valid argument for now in my opinion...especially because Lebron has absolutely no excuses if he doesn't win this year and at least 1 more on this Heat team.

Well of course you have a valid opinion, and of course comparing kobe to horry is different to comparing kobe and lebron. However it really annoys me when people write "5>1" as if that is the be-all and end-all of it. Kobe has had a greater career than lebron so far. However it is often swept under the carpet that kobe has had equally poor if not worse failures in the finals than lebron has, and he has been bailed out by his team-mates. Likewise jordan for all his great highs had a number of failures in earlier playoff rounds (and every other player).

But I agree that lebron has no excuse this year, even though wade is not the player that he was on a consistent basis. The heat are a settled team and have been together for years, long enough to play with each other rather than take turns like they were in 10-11. I still think that lebron going to the finals in 06-07 is probably the most impressive basketball achievement I've ever seen (considering that a similar team to that went 19-63 without lebron), but in the end no-one remembers who comes second. Lebron has got to win rings to move up the all-time ladder.

[Unbiased_one]

No it doesn't. It is because April 2013 members have been proven to be idiots, you are living proof of that.

Of course rings are important but they have to be taken in context.

Whatever you might think of me, I am not an idiot. Just cause I don't subscribe to the '5>1' argument (I have slightly more sophisticated ways to judge between players), does not make me an idiot. Of course I don't think that those 50s celtics are all the greatest players of all time, but you can't say that a ring is tarnished...winning is winning.

[DMAVS41]

Well of course you have a valid opinion, and of course comparing kobe to horry is different to comparing kobe and lebron. However it really annoys me when people write "5>1" as if that is the be-all and end-all of it. Kobe has had a greater career than lebron so far. However it is often swept under the carpet that kobe has had equally poor if not worse failures in the finals than lebron has, and he has been bailed out by his team-mates. Likewise jordan for all his great highs had a number of failures in earlier playoff rounds (and every other player).

But I agree that lebron has no excuse this year, even though wade is not the player that he was on a consistent basis. The heat are a settled team and have been together for years, long enough to play with each other rather than take turns like they were in 10-11. I still think that lebron going to the finals in 06-07 is probably the most impressive basketball achievement I've ever seen (considering that a similar team to that went 19-63 without lebron), but in the end no-one remembers who comes second. Lebron has got to win rings to move up the all-time ladder.

Lebron validated all of that 5>1 stuff after his epic collapse and chokejob in 11. Before then...nobody had a good reason to ever say that because his teams just weren't very good. Certainly not good enough to hate on him for not winning it.

Lebron's first 7 years on the Cavs were amazing...even with the weird game 5 in 2010...it is really hard to find much fault in anything that happened. But 11 changed everything. You had an all time great player without a title playing on a stacked team against one of the weaker championship teams in NBA history...and he wet the bed in the biggest moment of his career.

And it validated all the ring stuff...and until he rattles off multiple titles with these amazing circumstances he has now...it will be valid.

[Unbiased_one]

Lebron validated all of that 5>1 stuff after his epic collapse and chokejob in 11. Before then...nobody had a good reason to ever say that because his teams just weren't very good. Certainly not good enough to hate on him for not winning it.

Lebron's first 7 years on the Cavs were amazing...even with the weird game 5 in 2010...it is really hard to find much fault in anything that happened. But 11 changed everything. You had an all time great player without a title playing on a stacked team against one of the weaker championship teams in NBA history...and he wet the bed in the biggest moment of his career.

And it validated all the ring stuff...and until he rattles off multiple titles with these amazing circumstances he has now...it will be valid.

I agree with all of this. If he wins the next 2 titles with fmvps then he passes kobe in my books, and goes up into the top 5. If that happens, you can't really make an argument for anyone over him except jabbar and jordan. But it has to happen first.

[DMAVS41]

I agree with all of this. If he wins the next 2 titles with fmvps then he passes kobe in my books, and goes up into the top 5. If that happens, you can't really make an argument for anyone over him except jabbar and jordan. But it has to happen first.

Lebron with 3 titles and 3 fmvps' and 4 mvps would rank in my top 5. But you could definitely still make arguments for MJ, Russell, Magic, Kareem, Duncan, and Hakeem in my opinion. But that is just my opinion.

[Unbiased_one]

Magic and bird would still be ahead, Kobe probably too. Duncan and hakeem are a maybe.

He needs at least 7 titles to catch up to russell, MJ, kareem given the weak era

I really don't get the weak era argument...how can you possibly determine whether a particular era is weak...based on some preconceived notion of how many superstars are playing? You could easily argue that the nba is the deepest it's ever been since the league got 20+ teams as there are so many international players and the population has gone up. You could also argue that any modern player's stats are deflated beacuse of the low pace in the league (not that this affect rings just accumulators).

If you want to argue anyone besides kaj and mj over lebron after 2 rings more, go look at their advanced stats...win shares, PER, playoff win shares, playoff PER etc. and imagine 2 more good years for lebron. Kobe is ridiculous...he's just about ahead of Lebron at the moment, but you could easily argue the other way. Just for your info...Kobe has never led the league OR the playoffs in any of the following: PER, WS, WS/48, pm, net pm, adj pm, even if you impose quite strict minimum limits on minutes played, shots taken etc. Kobe has rings over lebron, but if (!) he gets 2 more there isn't much of an argument really.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I really don't get the weak era argument...how can you possibly determine whether a particular era is weak...based on some preconceived notion of how many superstars are playing? You could easily argue that the nba is the deepest it's ever been since the league got 20+ teams as there are so many international players and the population has gone up. You could also argue that any modern player's stats are deflated beacuse of the low pace in the league (not that this affect rings just accumulators).

If you want to argue anyone besides kaj and mj over lebron after 2 rings more, go look at their advanced stats...win shares, PER, playoff win shares, playoff PER etc. and imagine 2 more good years for lebron. Kobe is ridiculous...he's just about ahead of Lebron at the moment, but you could easily argue the other way. Just for your info...Kobe has never led the league OR the playoffs in any of the following: PER, WS, WS/48, pm, net pm, adj pm, even if you impose quite strict minimum limits on minutes played, shots taken etc. Kobe has rings over lebron, but if (!) he gets 2 more there isn't much of an argument really.

You are missing the first step. You have to establish that any of those "advanced stats" actually matter in ranking players. Somehow people have been ranking players without them for 60+ years.

[Unbiased_one]

Yet none of those matter.

pm is a measure of many points more your team scored than the other team...that is literally the point of basketball so how can you possibly say it doesn't matter? PER isn't great but at least it's better than ppg, WS is better but again it's not great, that I agree with. They still matter a lot more than something like a scoring title.

To continue the tiresome lebron kobe debate, did you know that the supposedly amazing bench of the miami heat gets outscored by opponents when he's not on the floor?


You are missing the first step. You have to establish that any of those "advanced stats" actually matter in ranking players. Somehow people have been ranking players without them for 60+ years.

True but you'd like to think that we've got somewhat better at it over that time huh? I'm not entirely convinced by advanced stats, but I am convinced that they are a lot better for evaluating players that traditional stats like points rebounds and assists.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

pm is a measure of many points more your team scored than the other team...that is literally the point of basketball so how can you possibly say it doesn't matter? PER isn't great but at least it's better than ppg, WS is better but again it's not great, that I agree with. They still matter a lot more than something like a scoring title.

To continue the tiresome lebron kobe debate, did you know that the supposedly amazing bench of the miami heat gets outscored by opponents when he's not on the floor?



True but you'd like to think that we've got somewhat better at it over that time huh? I'm not entirely convinced by advanced stats, but I am convinced that they are a lot better for evaluating players that traditional stats like points rebounds and assists.

I'll stick with points, rebounds and assists. You can keep PM. Shoutout to Thabo Sefolosha as a top 5 player in the league though.

[Himan12]

Imo what it basically comes down too is time, if he grabs 2 more titles with fmvps I dont see an argument for kobe being ranked ahead of him on the all time lists. As he already is a better player than kobe was in his prime.