View Full Version : Gary Payton: LeBron wouldn't be as good in our era
kuniva_dAMiGhTy
03-01-2013, 08:03 PM
You can't guard him now because it seems like you can't put your hands on him. You know what I'm saying?" Payton said during the All-Star break. "With LeBron, if somebody can hand check him and muscle him, I still think it could be the same. It's a lot different when somebody can hand-check you and control you and be stronger than you on the block or whatever and not let you go anywhere.
"It's a little bit different, as being free and being a freak of nature and his body that he has right now, nobody can guard him, you know what I'm saying? So right now, if he could come back in our era and we could hand check him and guard him and bigger guys get on him and when he gets to the bucket we hit him and knock him like (Bill) Laimbeer, like the Boston Celtic days, it'd be a little bit different. I guarantee you it would be. But he's still great, he's still a great basketball player and like I said he's playing in a great era because he can get to the bucket whenever he feels like it.
http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2013/03/01/pulling-away-from-his-peers-lebron-james-competition-is-becoming-history/#ixzz2MO3ME5ut
kuniva_dAMiGhTy
03-01-2013, 08:07 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQAdKkh5CJo
Funny Bruceblitz video on the topic. :oldlol: He's right though.
Lebron23
03-01-2013, 08:08 PM
He would still be better than you Mr. Payton.
jimmy77x
03-01-2013, 08:11 PM
nb4 lebron nut huggers arrive ... too late
FireDavidKahn
03-01-2013, 08:12 PM
Gary Payton: "I'm really jealous at how good Lebron is"
unbreakable
03-01-2013, 08:13 PM
of course he wouldnt be as good.
brb NO FLOPPING
brb they actually call TRAVELING
brb he'd get murdered the second he tried to FLOP like he does sometimes
Orlando Magic
03-01-2013, 08:13 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQAdKkh5CJo
Funny Bruceblitz video on the topic. :oldlol: He's right though.
HAHAHAHA... WOW THE RAGE.
Regardless if Bruce is right or not, citing a former players' opinion as evidence that your viewpoint is correct is bullshit. I'm so sick of those types of arguments. IDGAF what former players have to say... just because they could kick my ass on the court doesn't mean they can out analyze me.
LeBron James is one of the best basketball players we have ever seen. If you transport current LeBron back in time to the 80s and early 90s, he is the best perimeter player in the league in terms of getting a team wins... as he would be in any area. Even with hand checking he would still blow by defenders.
Lebron23
03-01-2013, 08:16 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAiAzRSoq1w
inclinerator
03-01-2013, 08:20 PM
lebron could also use his hands to ward of defenders like mj use to do
gengiskhan
03-01-2013, 08:21 PM
Could'nt have said it better myself.
LBJ looks unstoppable. If LBJ looks like this. imagine how great SHAWN KEMP would've been. 'Nique would've been in today's era.
severe Hand checking + physical "CONTACT" D will limit LBJ, Wade, Kobe all of them.
Offense just DONT flow smoothly with those IMPEDIMENTS.
Kobe aint crossing 21 PPG at age 34 as fatigue, burn out kicks in much more quickly.
LBJ be missing more shots than not.
Wade's EURO STEP will be neutralized completely with hand on him.
Peyton is completely correct. No 2nd thoughts on this.
Every past player is always going to think their era was the best.
Wilt once said Magic wouldn't be as good in his era. :confusedshrug:
It's all a crock of shit. Franchise/Superstar level players are transcendent.
RoundMoundOfReb
03-01-2013, 08:23 PM
A great player is a great player in any era.
Lebron23
03-01-2013, 08:24 PM
lebron could also use his hands to ward of defenders like mj use to do
LeBron would be a much more dangerous defender without the hand check rule. I like Payton as a player, but LBJ would be an elite NBA player in any era from the 1950's up to the Present Era.
All Net
03-01-2013, 08:29 PM
A great player is a great player in any era.
Yep
Lebron would be an all-time great no matter what era he's in.
2010splash
03-01-2013, 08:29 PM
Clearly Payton has reached the age where delusion and senility sets in. :oldlol:
JellyBean
03-01-2013, 08:32 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2013/03/01/pulling-away-from-his-peers-lebron-james-competition-is-becoming-history/#ixzz2MO3ME5ut
:facepalm I am pretty sre Lebron would be able to hold is hi ow if he played in the lat 80s and 90s era
secund2nun
03-01-2013, 08:33 PM
Biased thinking. Payton is jealous. Lebron gets hacked all the time here and gets few foul calls these days. Imagine how good Lebron's defense would be if he could hand check. It all equals out. He is a lot stronger than most NBA players. His defense would be insane if he could be more physical.
tikay0
03-01-2013, 08:41 PM
Lebron stans: :cry: :rant :banghead:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQAdKkh5CJo
Funny Bruceblitz video on the topic. :oldlol: He's right though.
What happened to Bruce Blitz? He used to be the biggest Lebron fan?
http://i48.tinypic.com/29vx7wm.jpg
eurobum
03-02-2013, 10:45 AM
lebron could also use his hands to ward of defenders like mj use to do
This is such a bad counter-argument. Hand checking, constant elbow/lower arm on offensive player and physical defense were allowed, while this "MJ move" wasn't thus was done at not nearly the same rate, obviously. Homer argument.
Lebron stans arguing that MJ did this every time down the floor :oldlol:.
Accept that Lebron James is the greatest in this era and would be great in ANY era, but maybe, just maybe, he would have a tougher time in Payton's era.
eurobum
03-02-2013, 10:51 AM
Because of the rules, the defense of Payton's (or any) era is a constant while that MJ move is an anomaly, breaking of the rules. You can't seriously argue that the anomaly has equal bearing/weight as the constant. That's what you're doing when you say, "b-b-b-b-b-b-but if in that era he could thwart/manipulate defenses like MJ." Yeah, like once a game if even that.
Logically and rationally looking at it.
To be fair, he didn't say LeBron would be average or a scrub. Just wouldn't be as good.
What he said could be true based on how hardnose the league was when Payton was playing and seeing how players have gotten into LBJ's mind numerous times before, I say could see LeBron having a 2011 Finals moments if he was in the Jordan era.
Some people compared his strength and body to Karl Malone and look at how he shrunk when it mattered most.
lol @ all ******gers getting all defensive :lol
Bandito
03-02-2013, 10:56 AM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-XiHP8UE-958/TdO2TG58vDI/AAAAAAAAAHQ/arSYMcKa6Yc/s1600/Lebron-Cry-baby.jpg
STATUTORY
03-02-2013, 11:00 AM
we all saw what happened to Lebron when he went full speed driving entire court against Kobe's handcheck in the all star game
shot blocked
Eh, the same "soft, not as physical" complaints people have about the league now, people had back in the '90s. I saw old timers from the '70s on half time segments making fun of how you couldn't guard Jordan because of all the favorable rules for him (isolation, lack of physicality etc). I'll gladly upload video of couple of them talking about this because I think I saved it somewhere. And the same "hand-checking" complaints were going on in 1993, in fact here's an NY Times article:
Published: March 28, 1993
The increase of flagrant fouls and violence between players in today's National Basketball Association is a direct result of the elimination of the defensive hand check from games. Physical contact has always been a part of modern professional basketball. But when the N.B.A. abolished a defensive player's ability to use the hand check as a way of slowing down the offensive player he was guarding, players began finding new ways to keep their opponents from going to the hoop. As a result, the hip check has replaced the hand check, as frustrated players try to limit their opponents' scoring chances.
It is time for the N.B.A. to reinstate the use of the hand-check.
Haymaker
03-02-2013, 11:10 AM
Lebron wouldn't survive a playoffs series against the '88 Pistons or the '92 Knicks. He would fake another cramp just to get out of the game.
BlueandGold
03-02-2013, 11:12 AM
Lebron vs "the Jordan Rules" Pistons with Chuck Daly as their head coach?
Series already over (swept) ala Popovich's 07 Spurs vs Cavs
Segatti
03-02-2013, 11:13 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKNodRa71Cg
BlueandGold
03-02-2013, 11:14 AM
Eh, the same "soft, not as physical" complaints people have about the league now, people had back in the '90s. I saw old timers from the '70s on half time segments making fun of how you couldn't guard Jordan because of all the favorable rules for him (isolation, lack of physicality etc). I'll gladly upload video of couple of them talking about this because I think I saved it somewhere. And the same "hand-checking" complaints were going on in 1993, in fact here's an NY Times article:
Published: March 28, 1993
that's a good point, thanks for posting that quote.
Living Being
03-02-2013, 11:18 AM
Saying he wouldn't be as good in Payton's era is pointless, because EVERYONE wouldn't be/wasn't as good. He would still be better than everyone. He would just have a harder time moving around. It's all relative.
eurobum
03-02-2013, 11:19 AM
Eh, the same "soft, not as physical" complaints people have about the league now, people had back in the '90s. I saw old timers from the '70s on half time segments making fun of how you couldn't guard Jordan because of all the favorable rules for him (isolation, lack of physicality etc). I'll gladly upload video of couple of them talking about this because I think I saved it somewhere. And the same "hand-checking" complaints were going on in 1993, in fact here's an NY Times article:
Published: March 28, 1993
Maybe on paper, but what did it actually look like? How many times does it have to be reiterated; look at how Jordan was being guarded by late 1980s Pistons and early 1990s Knicks. The images don't lie. Imagine today's superstars (any, not just James) facing those defenses. From 2000s it's been too much pampering and softness. Too easily called flagrants, ejections, suspensions, etc.
ripthekik
03-02-2013, 11:20 AM
:applause: :applause: :applause:
gary payton spitting the truth.
eurobum
03-02-2013, 11:20 AM
Saying he wouldn't be as good in Payton's era is pointless, because EVERYONE wouldn't be/wasn't as good. He would still be better than everyone. He would just have a harder time moving around. It's all relative.
This. Except for one player, of course.
Haymaker
03-02-2013, 11:24 AM
Maybe on paper, but what did it actually look like? How many times does it have to be reiterated; look at how Jordan was being guarded by late 1980s Pistons and early 1990s Knicks. The images don't lie. Imagine today's superstars (any, not just James) facing those defenses. From 2000s it's been too much pampering and softness. Too easily called flagrants, ejections, suspensions, etc. This. They just have to WATCH the games, and picture James or Durant getting mauled by 12 angry men on every possession.
KingBeasley08
03-02-2013, 11:38 AM
Gary Payton's at the age where the only thing he can do is golf. Nostalgia is speaking for him
lebron would dominate in any era, even 50 years from now.
Segatti
03-02-2013, 11:44 AM
This. They just have to WATCH the games, and picture James or Durant getting mauled by 12 angry men on every possession.
For me both would do even better than now, and the funny thing is that my guess is as hypothetical (and worthless) as yours.
Living Being
03-02-2013, 11:44 AM
This. Except for one player, of course.
:cheers:
Maybe on paper, but what did it actually look like? How many times does it have to be reiterated; look at how Jordan was being guarded by late 1980s Pistons and early 1990s Knicks. The images don't lie. Imagine today's superstars (any, not just James) facing those defenses. From 2000s it's been too much pampering and softness. Too easily called flagrants, ejections, suspensions, etc.
:oldlol: It's hilarious that some people will look at a few cherry picked/selective clips on YouTube and then come to the conclusion that the league was no blood, no foul straight up prison ball in the 80s and 90s. Seriously, anyone can dig up random pictures/YouTube clips. Just watch the games man, these nostalgic 90s kids wearing rose-tinted glasses point to specific edited sequences they've spotted and act like every possession was like that. They don't even help their case at this point, people are so sick of hearing these myths.
http://kandjsports.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/kobe-raja.jpg
http://www.thefeinline.com/photos/Hard%20Foul.jpg
http://www3.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Denver+Nuggets+v+Los+Angeles+Lakers+Game+5+75jblqU cD3Gl.jpg
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0609/nba_g_kobe2_576.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_zxsbVMrOUNw/Son-8X5U-CI/AAAAAAAACkQ/L89dACcghDY/s400/kobe-bleeding-warriors.jpg
^ People will be using pictures like that to manipulate kids who watch ball in 2020's. Yeah, the late 80s Pistons were dirty/scrappy as hell but lets not act like the whole era was like that.
kaiteng
03-02-2013, 11:46 AM
I believe if they are talented enough they would adapt in any situations like the era Glove talked about.
eurobum
03-02-2013, 11:48 AM
C'mon, those are outstanding events. Kobe Bryant hasn't faced a defense that REGULARLY guarded him with these tactics. These tactics don't exist in modern times, they did in previous eras.
kNicKz
03-02-2013, 11:54 AM
Gary Payton said he would still be a good player, but he wouldn't be as unstoppable because of different rules and a lot more bigs in the league....not a stretch at all
C'mon, those are outstanding events. Kobe Bryant hasn't faced a defense that REGULARLY guarded him with these tactics. These tactics don't exist in modern times, they did in previous eras.
Actually Kobe (who drives a LOT less than Jordan mind you) was played just as physically in some games during the Nuggets Conference Finals series in 2009 as MJ was in any of those Pistons series (tripped by players grabbing his feet, clotheslined a couple of times as he drove, whacked in the face regularly etc etc).
Haymaker
03-02-2013, 11:58 AM
:oldlol: It's hilarious that some people will look at a few cherry picked/selective clips on YouTube and then come to the conclusion that the league was no blood, no foul straight up prison ball in the 80s and 90s. Seriously, anyone can dig up random pictures/YouTube clips. Just watch the games man, these nostalgic 90s kids wearing rose-tinted glasses point to specific edited sequences they've spotted and act like every possession was like that. They don't even help their case at this point, people are so sick of hearing these myths.
http://kandjsports.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/kobe-raja.jpg
http://www.thefeinline.com/photos/Hard%20Foul.jpg
http://www3.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Denver+Nuggets+v+Los+Angeles+Lakers+Game+5+75jblqU cD3Gl.jpg
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0609/nba_g_kobe2_576.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_zxsbVMrOUNw/Son-8X5U-CI/AAAAAAAACkQ/L89dACcghDY/s400/kobe-bleeding-warriors.jpg
^ People will be using pictures like that to manipulate kids who watch ball in 2020's. Yeah, the late 80s Pistons were dirty/scrappy as hell but lets not act like the whole era was like that.
Just watch the kind of fouls that Charles Oakley committed against the Bulls in the playoffs. Those kind of fouls will get you a flagrant or an ejection in today's game. And he had the freedom of giving 6 of those on any given night.
LikeABosh
03-02-2013, 12:00 PM
http://gifwall.net/gif/gw-close20door.gif
2010splash
03-02-2013, 12:03 PM
Anyone who seriously believes this has a few screws loose in their heads. Here's a simple fact - If LeBron played in the 90's, the rankings would look like this:
1. Jordan/LeBron
2. LeBron/Jordan
----ENORMOUS GAP----
The rest.
Jordan and LeBron would be in a league of their own, far greater than the next best player.
/thread.
Just watch the kind of fouls that Charles Oakley committed against the Bulls in the playoffs. Those kind of fouls will get you a flagrant or an ejection in today's game. And he had the freedom of giving 6 of those on any given night.
Were defenses more physical as a whole in the 80s/early 90s? Yes, but that doesn't necessarily make them better. If physicality and hand-checking is everything then the 70s are the GOAT defensive era.
But it doesn't take much thinking to realize that 90s defense > 70s defense because the players overall are much quicker, cover the floor better, better team defense, the game is more half court oriented so less easy shots. Just like it doesn't take much to realize that 00s defense > early 90s and 80s for those same exact reasons.
Living Being
03-02-2013, 12:07 PM
Gary Payton said he would still be a good player, but he wouldn't be as unstoppable because of different rules and a lot more bigs in the league....not a stretch at all
I'm not a LeBron fan, but I have no doubt he would still be unstoppable. He's still a freight train.
Just imagine how LeBron would fair against Charles Oakley, and you would get an idea of how he could handle that era. What we don't know is how he would handle it mentally. Maybe he would be more of a beast with the right buttons pushed.
CavaliersFTW
03-02-2013, 12:11 PM
Clearly Payton has reached the age where delusion and senility sets in. :oldlol:
how old were you when you first reached this stage?
MaxFly
03-02-2013, 12:31 PM
This is ridiculous. LeBron would be just as good.
But let's say that he wouldn't be as good... Let's say that defenses were actually better in the 90s because players could get away with more... wouldn't that make LeBron a better defensive player? Wouldn't he be able to use his strength, speed and size to bully and hack other players? If people want to pretend that players could get away with almost anything in the 90s and LeBron was allowed to play under those imaginary conditions, who other than Jordan would he not be able to shut down?
Ultimately, by saying that the 90s were a much tougher era to play in, you're saying that LeBron wouldn't be as great a scorer, but he'd be just as good a passer and rebounder, and that he'd be an out of the world defensive player able to shut down virtually any guard and small forward in the league. Pick your poison. :rolleyes:
Pointguard
03-02-2013, 12:41 PM
Payton seems to be talking about putting a bigger defender on Lebron. He is totally putting Lebron in as a power forward by the words chosen. Lebron is a lot faster than AC Green (even Clyde Drexler) so it does create other problems in his perspective. Lebron's three point range now would be among the best in the league easily. What guard would be as fast as Lebron at that time?
The hitting him when he comes down the middle would definitely slow down the forays to the hoop. It was brutal then. But Lebron's game right now has a little bit of everything. I recall Lebron spending a whole year of not driving and was still dominant so, he isn't really dependent on it.
Nothing new here...
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8256186&postcount=1
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8256227&postcount=10
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8259066&postcount=20
wakencdukest
03-02-2013, 01:09 PM
He'd be just as good in the 90's. Players can adapt. Just like superstars from the past would adapt to todays game. And, the whole thing about putting a bigger player player on LeBron? He'd abuse them with his speed, kinda like Worthy used to do to Rodman.
Clifton
03-02-2013, 01:12 PM
Every past player is always going to think their era was the best.
I dunno, man. I really don't see Vince Carter at 50 saying that whoever the best swingman is in 2025 couldn't have scored 30ppg in "his era". Everyone knows that 2000-2007 was an extremely easy era for swingmen, and that 2008-now is harder than that, but still easier than the 90s.
I grew up as a fan in 2002-2008, and it will probably always be my favorite era looking back. But I'll never say stuff like, "man, defenses were way tougher then." "It was so much harder to get your 30."
That said, if Lebron played in the 90s, he'd be the second best player. I don't think there can be any doubt about that. I think he's more likely to be first than third. Hakeem better than Lebron? Don't see it sorry. Not even then.
Pointguard
03-02-2013, 01:17 PM
Can somebody please show me a video where handchecking slowed Barkley or Malone down? When you are big, explosive and quick, hand checking works against the defender. The defender has to plant themself to get any leverage against a bigger player. The offensive player uses the leverage to spin off of him, and when he spins, his elbow knocks the defenders hand off of him, as his left leg (his more explosive leg) gets a full step ahead of the defender's weak leg.
Can somebody please show me the video of handchecking slowing down George Gervin? Lebron has range. Lebron plays primarily a face up game. He will more than likely make more 3 pointers than Gervin ever did and at a higher rate. Lebron is shooting the three at a clip of Reggie Miller did in his best years, and making one per game.
Can somebody please show me a video of handchecking slowing down James Worthy? Rodman couldn't do anything with James Worthy but nobody could. James biggest attribute was his burst of speed/quickness.
Lebron is more explosive than any of them and its not really close. He's faster than them all and quicker too.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=290786
kNicKz
03-02-2013, 01:29 PM
http://www.footbasket.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/LeBron-James.png
O hai guyz! Lets have the whole league be friends and cry 2 refs together!!
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_madazwj9Ty1qkeg17o1_500.jpg
http://g.cdn.mersap.com/basquetbol/files/2011/11/nba-fights2.jpg
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ma3xqpMegV1redybyo1_500.jpg
http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/lebron-james-to-the-wnba.jpg
Kingwillball
03-02-2013, 01:31 PM
Could'nt have said it better myself.
LBJ looks unstoppable. If LBJ looks like this. imagine how great SHAWN KEMP would've been. 'Nique would've been in today's era.
severe Hand checking + physical "CONTACT" D will limit LBJ, Wade, Kobe all of them.
Offense just DONT flow smoothly with those IMPEDIMENTS.
Kobe aint crossing 21 PPG at age 34 as fatigue, burn out kicks in much more quickly.
LBJ be missing more shots than not.
Wade's EURO STEP will be neutralized completely with hand on him.
Peyton is completely correct. No 2nd thoughts on this.
So basically your saying all old school players are better and players from this era wouldn't adapt to that eras style of play? Ok got it.. What I see is bigger stronger faster more athletic players now than even 20 years ago. The only position that has not evolved is the center position.
DJ Leon Smith
03-02-2013, 01:32 PM
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0609/nba_g_kobe2_576.jpg
LOL at this pic being used to highlight how this era is similar to the 80s/90s.
SilkkTheShocker
03-02-2013, 01:46 PM
Payton was my favorite player of the 90s. But these legends are coming off as really bitter
tmacattack33
03-02-2013, 01:48 PM
Every perimeter player's offensive game would go down relatively, and all the big men's game would go up.
And if u give it some thought and realize that the whole league would get hand checked, and not just the player you are speaking about, you'll have a much better argument. And if we do that with Lebron, we'd see that a hand check would effect him much less than it would a 6'9 210 lb Durant or 6'1 190 lb Derrick Rose or Russell Westbrook.
iamgine
03-02-2013, 01:50 PM
Payton's theory seems to make sense but the reality seems to contradict him. Nique, Malone, King, English scored a ton of points with great efficiency in that supposed handcheck era. Do we think Lebron is a worse scorer than them?
ripthekik
03-02-2013, 01:54 PM
there must be a reason that all these NBA legends (Jordan, Magic, Barkley, Payton) have all come out and criticized Lebron at one point.:applause: :applause: :applause:
the only guy who continuously stood him for him is the beta who rode on Jordan's back for 6 rings, same way Lebron is getting his rings.
neilio23
03-02-2013, 02:07 PM
Every past player is always going to think their era was the best.
Wilt once said Magic wouldn't be as good in his era. :confusedshrug:
It's all a crock of shit. Franchise/Superstar level players are transcendent.
This.
imnew09
03-02-2013, 02:11 PM
He will choke against good Defense. Gary Payton is right.
hitmanyr2k
03-02-2013, 02:18 PM
Payton was my favorite player of the 90s. But these legends are coming off as really bitter
What's Payton supposed to say? He sees the same shit as the rest of us. Scoring in this era isn't as tough as it used to be. Getting into the paint has never been easier. There are no more enforcers. The bigs are mediocre and then there's that stupid 3 second defensive rule to clear driving lanes on top of that. I think Payton and maybe some of the other legends are a little bitter that they didn't have it as easy as the current players in the league now.
TheMan
03-02-2013, 02:18 PM
So basically your saying all old school players are better and players from this era wouldn't adapt to that eras style of play? Ok got it.. What I see is bigger stronger faster more athletic players now than even 20 years ago. The only position that has not evolved is the center position.
I'm calling this bullshit...name me these bigger, stronger and faster players. All I see is LeBron as the exception. Name me ten players of today's era who are bigger, stronger and faster than the top ten of the 90s, this should be easy, right? Plenty of bigger, stronger and faster players nowadays...you got LeBron, I'll hit you with 90s Shaq, he was just as impressive athletic wise as LBJ, Shaq would often go coast to coast after a defensive rebound and dunk on the other end, and this is a center we talking about. I'll raise you a prime Shawn Kemp and Kevin Garnett.
Match those two with players drafted in 2000 or later...
imnew09
03-02-2013, 02:22 PM
So basically your saying all old school players are better and players from this era wouldn't adapt to that eras style of play? Ok got it.. What I see is bigger stronger faster more athletic players now than even 20 years ago. The only position that has not evolved is the center position.
Our top leading scorer for the past seasons is Durant. That guy is a STICK!
yeaaaman
03-02-2013, 02:29 PM
I don't get it - what's crazy about saying a player facing more impediments wouldn't play the same as they would without those impediments?
Kingwillball
03-02-2013, 02:30 PM
Our top leading scorer for the past seasons is Durant. That guy is a STICK!
He is ALso a 6"11 Shooting Guard.. Durant would be tough in any Era but he would have more problems than Lebron cause Teams would be allowed to muscle him and push him around alot more without Durant getting to the Line on TOUCH fouls.
TheMan
03-02-2013, 02:30 PM
Our top leading scorer for the past seasons is Durant. That guy is a STICK!
He's bigger but no way would I consider him stronger and faster:oldlol:
He's tall for a SF but the 80s had a point guard who was 6 ft 9 and I don't see a bunch of those going around. In fact, the guy most consider the best PG today is barely 6 ft...:oldlol:
imnew09
03-02-2013, 02:33 PM
He is ALso a 6"11 Shooting Guard.. Durant would be tough in any Era but he would have more problems than Lebron cause Teams would be allowed to muscle him and push him around alot more without Durant getting to the Line on TOUCH fouls.
Lol Durant will be tough to guard in any Era? LOL. He will get rape on a daily basis without the help of the refs, and his stupid swing his arms around the defender move. Best he will average is 15ppg.
wakencdukest
03-02-2013, 02:35 PM
I'm calling this bullshit...name me these bigger, stronger and faster players. All I see is LeBron as the exception. Name me ten players of today's era who are bigger, stronger and faster than the top ten of the 90s, this should be easy, right? Plenty of bigger, stronger and faster players nowadays...you got LeBron, I'll hit you with 90s Shaq, he was just as impressive athletic wise as LBJ, Shaq would often go coast to coast after a defensive rebound and dunk on the other end, and this is a center we talking about. I'll raise you a prime Shawn Kemp and Kevin Garnett.
Match those two with players drafted in 2000 or later...
That's a good point. LeBron is a pretty solid guy for a small forward, and while I think he would be able to play in any era, I don't think that players are any bigger or stronger today than they were thirty years ago. I think that alot of bigger players nowadays are becoming perimeter players, which make it look like they are getting bigger. Look at the 2 guards and small forwards today, they tend to be bigger than they used to be, whereas point guards, power forwards and centers seem to be about the same as they always have been. 20 to 30 years ago, someone LeBrons size would have gone to college and been groomed to play power forward.
TheMan
03-02-2013, 02:36 PM
KingWillBall, go ahead and name these "bigger, stronger and faster" players that are so common nowadays, I'm waiting...
I wanna end this bullshit myth right here and right now. If the league is bigger, stronger and faster, how are the Chris Pauls and Tony Parkers of the NBA doing so much damage? :confusedshrug:
TheMan
03-02-2013, 02:42 PM
That's a good point. LeBron is a pretty solid guy for a small forward, and while I think he would be able to play in any era, I don't think that players are any bigger or stronger today than they were thirty years ago. I think that alot of bigger players nowadays are becoming perimeter players, which make it look like they are getting bigger. Look at the 2 guards and small forwards today, they tend to be bigger than they used to be, whereas point guards, power forwards and centers seem to be about the same as they always have been. 20 to 30 years ago, someone LeBrons size would have gone to college and been groomed to play power forward.
I agree with you, SGs are a bit bigger but that doesn't mean they are better overall players. After Kobe, Wade, Harden and maybe Ginobilli, there's a lot of crap after those. Joe Johnson?:oldlol:
Cali Syndicate
03-02-2013, 02:45 PM
So basically your saying all old school players are better and players from this era wouldn't adapt to that eras style of play? Ok got it.. What I see is bigger stronger faster more athletic players now than even 20 years ago. The only position that has not evolved is the center position.
And the paint is really the only area where the game hasn't been altering or reinterpreting rules to favor offensive scoring.
Its not a coincidence that talent among perimeter players have exploded over the past ten years but hasn't among big men.
I do agree the league as a whole has become more athletic due to modern sports nutrition but the game is still dependent on skills and ball IQ. I'd take mark price over the likes of Eric bledsoe any day in today's era.
tmacattack33
03-02-2013, 02:47 PM
I don't get it - what's crazy about saying a player facing more impediments wouldn't play the same as they would without those impediments?
1. Not recognizing that Lebron is 260 lbs and so he may actually thrive more in a more physical league.
Hand checking 210 lb Penny Hardaway would be a lot different than hand checking 260 lb Lebron.
2. Not recognizing that there would be another side to this.
Lebron wouldn't only just get hand-checked on offense. Defensively, he would be allowed to hand check too.
So maybe his offense would go down some, but his defense would go up.
I<3NBA
03-02-2013, 02:49 PM
Lebron facing Jordan rules defense every night would fail. his team would still beat all those other teams that can't play defense like that. and let's not forget if he played in Payton's era, that means Jordan. no way in hell Lebron beats Jordan.
Derka
03-02-2013, 03:00 PM
A great player is a great player in any era.
This.
Cali Syndicate
03-02-2013, 03:03 PM
Were defenses more physical as a whole in the 80s/early 90s? Yes, but that doesn't necessarily make them better. If physicality and hand-checking is everything then the 70s are the GOAT defensive era.
But it doesn't take much thinking to realize that 90s defense > 70s defense because the players overall are much quicker, cover the floor better, better team defense, the game is more half court oriented so less easy shots. Just like it doesn't take much to realize that 00s defense > early 90s and 80s for those same exact reasons.
Physical defense doesn't make it better. I agree but it does provide a different dynamic. Back then a player wouldnt automatically get ejectedfor a hard foul just cause it wasnt a play on the ball. Meaning teams could send messages to warn players that if they keep trying to attack the basket that there might be consequences. Thatcan really take a toll on a players mentality. Also overall physicality wears down stamina faster.
Today's defenses are called advanced because they allow to defend off the ball and better cover spacing. Obviously this has pros and cons but zone defense is typically played to disrupt an offenses rhythm or because of a mismatch for momenets at a time. Almost never is a zone used as a main focus for defense. And remember They removed it cause it was hard to officiate. Just because it was illegal didn't mean teams didn't defend certain players with it. They just had to scheme it under the radar.
Blue&Orange
03-02-2013, 03:14 PM
Would Lebron still be allowed to use his off arm to push the defenders out of the way? Serious question.
The league was in hurry to outlaw the Durant rip move, but apparently they have no problem with Lebron pushing people away with his off arm.
Clifton
03-02-2013, 03:25 PM
We should read Payton's comments as more subtle than we are.
I don't think anyone thinks that Lebron wouldn't be able to score 25-30 in any era.
But I also don't think he'd be able to go ten straight games scoring 30 on 60% without breaking a sweat. He'd have to work harder for it. Nowadays you breathe on a guy wrong, it's a flagrant. I've seen footage of Larry Bird being positively brutalized in a way that Lebron just never has to deal with.
And it's far from clear to me, that as the second-best player, he would be able to develop an air of such invincibility around himself in a league with so many comparable talents when he was getting roughed up all the time. Right now the only guy who is CLOSE to Lebron is a stick-figure. There are no good, never mind great, big men today. The other two guys who are closest to Lebron are 6'5 and old, and Chris Paul, a PG. Next best player is Wade, who is on his team for chrissakes. He doesn't have to go against a guy as good and tough as Nique, never mind Bird, Jordan, Pippen. And who are this era's shutdown defenders? I don't see him going against Rodman, Bowen. His era's best wing defender, too, is on his own friggin' team.
ClutchOver9000
03-02-2013, 03:29 PM
All the stans talking about Payton being delusional and such when everything the guy said was absolute truth.
Lebron is great and would be great in any era but he would not be as great in the 80s/90s as he is now.
Stop getting angry that your god was "dissed", when its just a fair observation by a great who played in an era where defenders/defenses had MUCH more leeway in containing offensive players than is the case today.
BoutPractice
03-02-2013, 03:34 PM
Payton played until 2007... So in Payton's "era", LeBron didn't hypothetically, but actually, do such things as average 31, 7 and 6 and take a mediocre team to the Finals pretty much by himself...
I get that he means the 90s (an implicit admission that he was irrelevant by the 00s)... Still, is it just me or is he a bit young for "back in the day" speeches?
tmacattack33
03-02-2013, 03:36 PM
Another major point, that Gary Payton just conveniently glanced over...
Lebron was one of the two best players on our team in the 2008 Olympics (hand checking is allowed in international play).
And he was unquestionably the best on our team in 2012.
Hand checking didn't seem to bother him there now did it.
imnew09
03-02-2013, 03:43 PM
Another major point, that Gary Payton just conveniently glanced over...
Lebron was one of the two best players on our team in the 2008 Olympics (hand checking is allowed in international play).
And he was unquestionably the best on our team in 2012.
Hand checking didn't seem to bother him there now did it.
Comparing international players vs NBA players? :facepalm
By the way, Kobe bailed him out in 2008 Olympics.
ripthekik
03-02-2013, 03:45 PM
Another major point, that Gary Payton just conveniently glanced over...
Lebron was one of the two best players on our team in the 2008 Olympics (hand checking is allowed in international play).
And he was unquestionably the best on our team in 2012.
Hand checking didn't seem to bother him there now did it.
Lebron, when backed by All star teammates will flourish.. I thought we all knew this already :rolleyes:
DonDadda59
03-02-2013, 03:51 PM
I don't get it - what's crazy about saying a player facing more impediments wouldn't play the same as they would without those impediments?
Nothing. Some guys are just catching feelings because someone is somewhat critiquing their deity. It's not like Gary's saying Bron would be Kendrick Perkins in the 90s. He's just pointing out that he wouldn't have a red carpet rolled out for him every time he decided to drive the ball. And he's right. Take this for example:
Old man Kobe handchecks Lebron full court (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUA5jgR8ubU)
Now if 34 year old Kobe who has played subpar defense all year can impede Lebron so effectively by simply handchecking him (good on the refs for letting them play) and forcing him left, just imagine what a prime Scottie Pippen, or Dennis Rodman, or Anthony Mason could do if they were allowed to get physical with Lebron. Teams like the Bulls, Knicks, Pistons, used to love applying full court pressure like that.
Lebron would be great in any era, but life would be much harder on him if he played during the early-late 90s (I think he would thrive in the 80s with the more uptempo style).
Pointguard
03-02-2013, 03:51 PM
Lebron is the games most versatile player ever - no exceptions. There's nobody really close. Pippen, who was a top three player for a good part of the mid 90's was probably the closest. Lebron is Pippen in Karl Malone's body, cept that he is faster, quicker, and his touch from 3 point land is a little better than Reggie Miller's average for the 90's, and he's making as many a game as Chris Mullin averaged. Who is faster than Lebron in that era? Jordan is the only better penetrator and the only player better than him in the 90's because Lebron is like a composite sketch of the best otherwise.
He would be the games most adaptable player because he is the most versatile ever. He's unusally strong in any era, he is unusually fast in any era, he unusually explosive in any era, he unsually skilled in any era, he is unusually quick in any era, and has top level instincts, he has a great touch, and his IQ is great as well. Lebron has less limits than any other player. If he can't succeed in another era its because its an era where nobody else benefits from these qualities. Otherwords, it would have to be another sport.
Joey3000
03-02-2013, 04:02 PM
Yeah because Hand checking is the key to stoping a player who's main strenghts are being strong, fast and bigger then his opponants.
Joey3000
03-02-2013, 04:04 PM
Lebron is the games most versatile player ever - no exceptions. There's nobody really close. Pippen, who was a top three player for a good part of the mid 90's was probably the closest. Lebron is Pippen in Karl Malone's body, cept that he is faster, quicker, and his touch from 3 point land is a little better than Reggie Miller's average for the 90's, and he's making as many a game as Chris Mullin averaged. Who is faster than Lebron in that era? Jordan is the only better penetrator and the only player better than him in the 90's because Lebron is like a composite sketch of the best otherwise.
He would be the games most adaptable player because he is the most versatile ever. He's unusally strong in any era, he is unusually fast in any era, he unusually explosive in any era, he unsually skilled in any era, he is unusually quick in any era, and has top level instincts, he has a great touch, and his IQ is great as well. Lebron has less limits than any other player. If he can't succeed in another era its because its an era where nobody else benefits from these qualities. Otherwords, it would have to be another sport.
Hater voice: "Well I guess you done told us" :coleman:
Dbrog
03-02-2013, 04:08 PM
Lets be honest, Laimbeer was a big dude, but he would bounce off Lebron coming at him full force. Also, GP was certainly a very strong guard but his hand checks would do almost nothing to Lebron. He might be able to get a few reach-in steals though. Btw, lol @ 90s being the most physical era. This has been disproved many times.
Clifton
03-02-2013, 04:10 PM
Nothing. Some guys are just catching feelings because someone is somewhat critiquing their deity. It's not like Gary's saying Bron would be Kendrick Perkins in the 90s. He's just pointing out that he wouldn't have a red carpet rolled out for him every time he decided to drive the ball. And he's right. Take this for example:
Old man Kobe handchecks Lebron full court (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUA5jgR8ubU)
Now if 34 year old Kobe who has played subpar defense all year can impede Lebron so effectively by simply handchecking him (good on the refs for letting them play) and forcing him left, just imagine what a prime Scottie Pippen, or Dennis Rodman, or Anthony Mason could do if they were allowed to get physical with Lebron. Teams like the Bulls, Knicks, Pistons, used to love applying full court pressure like that.
Lebron would be great in any era, but life would be much harder on him if he played during the early-late 90s (I think he would thrive in the 80s with the more uptempo style).
Great f*cking post.
And I agree with your observations on the 80s. The 80s are overrated - not for the greatness of its players, but for how tough the defense was. It was really the 90s that stick out as a tough era. When I watch 80s ball there are some tough hits, but the ball moves up and down real quick, shots go up very early in the clock, guys let layups go all the time so they can go score on the other end.
DonDadda59
03-02-2013, 04:14 PM
Lets be honest, Laimbeer was a big dude, but he would bounce off Lebron coming at him full force. Also, GP was certainly a very strong guard but his hand checks would do almost nothing to Lebron. He might be able to get a few reach-in steals though. Btw, lol @ 90s being the most physical era. This has been disproved many times.
:oldlol:
When the hell did that happen? The whole point of the no touching, 3 sec in the paint, etc rules was to counteract the physicality in the game that was bringing games to a grind by the late 90s. The NBA brass has made no secret about that. Plus anyone who watched ball during that time and still watches now knows the truth.
Great f*cking post.
And I agree with your observations on the 80s. The 80s are overrated - not for the greatness of its players, but for how tough the defense was. It was really the 90s that stick out as a tough era. When I watch 80s ball there are some tough hits, but the ball moves up and down real quick, shots go up very early in the clock, guys let layups go all the time so they can go score on the other end.
Yeah for the most part the 80s was all about uptempo, fastbreak ball. Then the Bad Boy Pistons came around and instituted the Jordan rules. Other teams saw that it was a great way to make life more difficult for an offensive juggernaut like MJ and also win, so they adopted the philosophy (most notably Riley's Knicks). Then the league shifted from the uptempo style to more half court, grind it out physical, defensive, post-oriented play.
ProfessorMurder
03-02-2013, 04:16 PM
Yeah because Hand checking is the key to stoping a player who's main strenghts are being strong, fast and bigger then his opponants.
Speed is neutralized when you can actually touch and get in the way of a defender. Plus he's a poor free throw shooter for a perimeter star. Defenses would pack the paint and foul hard, Jordan Rules style.
IGOTGAME
03-02-2013, 04:19 PM
I've been saying this for years. Everytime someone can level him up he struggles. It's a lot easier to that with handchecking.
Pointguard
03-02-2013, 04:28 PM
Nothing. Some guys are just catching feelings because someone is somewhat critiquing their deity. It's not like Gary's saying Bron would be Kendrick Perkins in the 90s. He's just pointing out that he wouldn't have a red carpet rolled out for him every time he decided to drive the ball. And he's right. Take this for example:
Old man Kobe handchecks Lebron full court (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUA5jgR8ubU)
Now if 34 year old Kobe who has played subpar defense all year can impede Lebron so effectively by simply handchecking him (good on the refs for letting them play) and forcing him left, just imagine what a prime Scottie Pippen, or Dennis Rodman, or Anthony Mason could do if they were allowed to get physical with Lebron. Teams like the Bulls, Knicks, Pistons, used to love applying full court pressure like that.
Lebron would be great in any era, but life would be much harder on him if he played during the early-late 90s (I think he would thrive in the 80s with the more uptempo style).
If you play against hand checks you adapt. If you are not used to it, it catches you off guard. Show me a film clip of it working on guys who have only an aspect of Lebron's game but similar speed/quickness like Worthy, strength and power like Barkley/K Malone, skill and first step Gervin/Dantley. Lebron had a much better combination of qualities than any of these guys. Those guys are a study of exploiting it.
Joey3000
03-02-2013, 04:36 PM
Ok, so does that mean that prime payton would not be as good in this era cuz he cant hand check? :biggums:
tmacattack33
03-02-2013, 04:44 PM
Ok, so does that mean that prime payton would not be as good in this era cuz he cant hand check? :biggums:
:oldlol:
Finally, someone who thought about what this would mean in more ways than when Lebron James has the ball and a defender is hand checking him
And this would also mean that Lebron would be a better defender back then than he is now.
And to go even further, if perimeter players back then had such big problems attacking the rim, this means that having a Lebron who can stand at the top of the key and pick apart the defense with his elite vision becomes even more important.
CP3 and all the small 6'1 PG's can't just stand there like that with defenders in their way and pick a defense apart using their vision like that. Lebron at 6'8 can.
Floppy
03-02-2013, 04:48 PM
lebron could also use his hands to ward of defenders like mj use to do
:coleman:
ProfessorMurder
03-02-2013, 04:48 PM
Ok, so does that mean that prime payton would not be as good in this era cuz he cant hand check? :biggums:
His defense would be worse, but his offense would be 10x better.
And to go even further, if perimeter players back then had such big problems attacking the rim, this means that having a Lebron who can stand at the top of the key and pick apart the defense with his elite vision becomes even more important.
He won't pick apart defenses when they can contain him one on one easier. Don't act like he's making insane passes, he just traditionally throws it to the open man 90% of the time. Those people won't be open as often if they double less.
Nothing. Some guys are just catching feelings because someone is somewhat critiquing their deity. It's not like Gary's saying Bron would be Kendrick Perkins in the 90s. He's just pointing out that he wouldn't have a red carpet rolled out for him every time he decided to drive the ball. And he's right. Take this for example:
Old man Kobe handchecks Lebron full court (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUA5jgR8ubU)
Now if 34 year old Kobe who has played subpar defense all year can impede Lebron so effectively by simply handchecking him (good on the refs for letting them play) and forcing him left, just imagine what a prime Scottie Pippen, or Dennis Rodman, or Anthony Mason could do if they were allowed to get physical with Lebron. Teams like the Bulls, Knicks, Pistons, used to love applying full court pressure like that.
Lebron would be great in any era, but life would be much harder on him if he played during the early-late 90s (I think he would thrive in the 80s with the more uptempo style).
Why can't Bean guard LeBron in games that count? :confusedshrug:
tmacattack33
03-02-2013, 05:05 PM
His defense would be worse, but his offense would be 10x better.
He won't pick apart defenses when they can contain him one on one easier. Don't act like he's making insane passes, he just traditionally throws it to the open man 90% of the time. Those people won't be open as often if they double less.
You clearly haven't been watching Lebron as of late.
The "give the ball to a stationary Lebron at the top of the key with everyone else cutting and setting picks to confuse the defense and take advantage of Lebron's vision" play has been ran to success like 50 times over the past few weeks.
tmacattack33
03-02-2013, 05:13 PM
Comparing international players vs NBA players? :facepalm
By the way, Kobe bailed him out in 2008 Olympics.
I wasn't comparing him to international players, I was comparing him to Wade, Chris Paul, Deron, Kobe, Durant, Carmelo, Bosh, Dwight, Westbrook, etc.
He was the best or second best in 2008, and the best in 2012. So the hand checking apparently bothered him a lot less than everyone else.
LOL at this pic being used to highlight how this era is similar to the 80s/90s.
Team defenses now > Back then, especially with the illegal defense rules restricting them (there's a reason the best defensive teams of the era tried to play and get away with a lot of illegal D, when will people understand TEAM DEFENSE is the most important thing in assessing quality of defense)
'
Average athlete now > Back then (watching a typical game, there is a visible difference in lateral quickness/ability to cover floor/recover+contest shots etc etc, the court is and feels a lot smaller now that's why you get a lot of talk of people wanting NBA to expand the sidelines)
Another thing people complain about is stars getting fouls on offensive flops (ticky tack fouls). That has always been the case. Offensive floppers get free throws, it's that simple. That's a reason why Reggie Miller in '90 and '91 averaged more free throws than Jordan did in '92 and '93 (not to mention Mike taking way more shots than him too). You rip through defenders arms, kick out your legs, jump into players, you're going to get the call. You avoid defenders in the air like a D-Rose or MJ (at times)? You're not getting the call. It's just a shame that there's a lot more of that in the game now.
Westbrook and Rose are two of the quickest players I've ever seen, they should be basically unstoppable due to no handchecking/no touch rules right? (especially with respectable mid-range jumpers behind them)? But their scoring efficiency is quite mediocre, what gives?
Handchecking is nowhere as physical as it is made out to be. It DOES make it easier to stay in front of your man, but you could NEVER alter the course of the player through handchecking, or they would call a foul. In the 80s they would let that go but for some reason the 80s physical play is assigned to all of the 90s (and then magically after 1998 the defenses all went weak :oldlol:). Most of the hand-checking was done in the backcourt anyways. People act as if this handcheck was some giant wall players had to work around. A hand check is exactly what it says it is, a "check". Helps track the player. You could not interfere with the players movement or push on it. Like today, it is a foul. Was back then, is now.
It's funny because if your handcheck in any way obstructed the player from getting to the basket (ie. too physical, nearing a push) you would instantly be whistled for a foul. The handcheck was more physical in the 70s than 80s/early 90s. But still, to be honesst I'm not even sure the 80s were even more physical than today. You see the same number of ridiculous calls (players bitched and flopped less often though) back then as now. The posters making these wild allegations wouldn't know though, they've seen a couple of selected YouTube clips and doubt many have even sat through a single average 80s regular season game. 60+ FTA games were the average back then (look it up). For all the moaning about free throw attempts after 2005, teams on average shot less than 1 extra FT the following year.
taucesays
03-02-2013, 05:26 PM
Team defenses now > Back then, especially with the illegal defense rules restricting them (there's a reason the best defensive teams of the era tried to play and get away with a lot of illegal D, when will people understand TEAM DEFENSE is the most important thing in assessing quality of defense)
'
Average athlete now > Back then (watching a typical game, there is a visible difference in lateral quickness/ability to cover floor/recover+contest shots etc etc, the court is and feels a lot smaller now that's why you get a lot of talk of people wanting NBA to expand the sidelines)
Another thing people complain about is stars getting fouls on offensive flops (ticky tack fouls). That has always been the case. Offensive floppers get free throws, it's that simple. That's a reason why Reggie Miller in '90 and '91 averaged more free throws than Jordan did in '92 and '93 (not to mention Mike taking way more shots than him too). You rip through defenders arms, kick out your legs, jump into players, you're going to get the call. You avoid defenders in the air like a D-Rose or MJ (at times)? You're not getting the call. It's just a shame that there's a lot more of that in the game now.
Westbrook and Rose are two of the quickest players I've ever seen, they should be basically unstoppable due to no handchecking/no touch rules right? (especially with respectable mid-range jumpers behind them)? But their scoring efficiency is quite mediocre, what gives?
Handchecking is nowhere as physical as it is made out to be. It DOES make it easier to stay in front of your man, but you could NEVER alter the course of the player through handchecking, or they would call a foul. In the 80s they would let that go but for some reason the 80s physical play is assigned to all of the 90s (and then magically after 1998 the defenses all went weak :oldlol:). Most of the hand-checking was done in the backcourt anyways. People act as if this handcheck was some giant wall players had to work around. A hand check is exactly what it says it is, a "check". Helps track the player. You could not interfere with the players movement or push on it. Like today, it is a foul. Was back then, is now.
It's funny because if your handcheck in any way obstructed the player from getting to the basket (ie. too physical, nearing a push) you would instantly be whistled for a foul. The handcheck was more physical in the 70s than 80s/early 90s. But still, to be honesst I'm not even sure the 80s were even more physical than today. You see the same number of ridiculous calls (players bitched and flopped less often though) back then as now. The posters making these wild allegations wouldn't know though, they've seen a couple of selected YouTube clips and doubt many have even sat through a single average 80s regular season game. 60+ FTA games were the average back then (look it up). For all the moaning about free throw attempts after 2005, teams on average shot less than 1 extra FT the following year.
Don't come around here with this logical shit. This isn't the place for that.
clayton
03-02-2013, 05:29 PM
LeBron would destroy that weak era, where Jordan was only able to get rings due to decline of Bird, Celtics, and other Jordan ring blockers from the 80's. These old fools need to stop living in the past though. Welcome to 2013.
305Baller
03-02-2013, 05:32 PM
Of course Payton would say this.
Heat legacies.
tontoz
03-02-2013, 05:40 PM
Lebron would be a great player in any era. And he is a big guy, so handchecking him wouldn't be that easy anyway.
I think the more important issue is that big men were much better in Payton's time. There were bigs like Zo/Deke/Ewing/DRob/Dream etc who would make it tougher for Lebron to finish inside.
However Lebron is a good passer so he would have probably looked to pass more against those bigs. There really isn't an answer to Lebron the way he is playing now other than the double him and get the ball out of his hands. That isn't easy to do given the caliber of his teamates.
arifgokcen
03-02-2013, 05:42 PM
Team defenses now > Back then, especially with the illegal defense rules restricting them (there's a reason the best defensive teams of the era tried to play and get away with a lot of illegal D, when will people understand TEAM DEFENSE is the most important thing in assessing quality of defense)
'
Average athlete now > Back then (watching a typical game, there is a visible difference in lateral quickness/ability to cover floor/recover+contest shots etc etc, the court is and feels a lot smaller now that's why you get a lot of talk of people wanting NBA to expand the sidelines)
Another thing people complain about is stars getting fouls on offensive flops (ticky tack fouls). That has always been the case. Offensive floppers get free throws, it's that simple. That's a reason why Reggie Miller in '90 and '91 averaged more free throws than Jordan did in '92 and '93 (not to mention Mike taking way more shots than him too). You rip through defenders arms, kick out your legs, jump into players, you're going to get the call. You avoid defenders in the air like a D-Rose or MJ (at times)? You're not getting the call. It's just a shame that there's a lot more of that in the game now.
Westbrook and Rose are two of the quickest players I've ever seen, they should be basically unstoppable due to no handchecking/no touch rules right? (especially with respectable mid-range jumpers behind them)? But their scoring efficiency is quite mediocre, what gives?
Handchecking is nowhere as physical as it is made out to be. It DOES make it easier to stay in front of your man, but you could NEVER alter the course of the player through handchecking, or they would call a foul. In the 80s they would let that go but for some reason the 80s physical play is assigned to all of the 90s (and then magically after 1998 the defenses all went weak :oldlol:). Most of the hand-checking was done in the backcourt anyways. People act as if this handcheck was some giant wall players had to work around. A hand check is exactly what it says it is, a "check". Helps track the player. You could not interfere with the players movement or push on it. Like today, it is a foul. Was back then, is now.
It's funny because if your handcheck in any way obstructed the player from getting to the basket (ie. too physical, nearing a push) you would instantly be whistled for a foul. The handcheck was more physical in the 70s than 80s/early 90s. But still, to be honesst I'm not even sure the 80s were even more physical than today. You see the same number of ridiculous calls (players bitched and flopped less often though) back then as now. The posters making these wild allegations wouldn't know though, they've seen a couple of selected YouTube clips and doubt many have even sat through a single average 80s regular season game. 60+ FTA games were the average back then (look it up). For all the moaning about free throw attempts after 2005, teams on average shot less than 1 extra FT the following year.
Dude one of the best posts i have seen but you are gonna get creamed especially by the likes of kennethgriffin................
bukowski81
03-02-2013, 05:55 PM
Team defenses now > Back then, especially with the illegal defense rules restricting them (there's a reason the best defensive teams of the era tried to play and get away with a lot of illegal D, when will people understand TEAM DEFENSE is the most important thing in assessing quality of defense)
'
Average athlete now > Back then (watching a typical game, there is a visible difference in lateral quickness/ability to cover floor/recover+contest shots etc etc, the court is and feels a lot smaller now that's why you get a lot of talk of people wanting NBA to expand the sidelines)
Another thing people complain about is stars getting fouls on offensive flops (ticky tack fouls). That has always been the case. Offensive floppers get free throws, it's that simple. That's a reason why Reggie Miller in '90 and '91 averaged more free throws than Jordan did in '92 and '93 (not to mention Mike taking way more shots than him too). You rip through defenders arms, kick out your legs, jump into players, you're going to get the call. You avoid defenders in the air like a D-Rose or MJ (at times)? You're not getting the call. It's just a shame that there's a lot more of that in the game now.
Westbrook and Rose are two of the quickest players I've ever seen, they should be basically unstoppable due to no handchecking/no touch rules right? (especially with respectable mid-range jumpers behind them)? But their scoring efficiency is quite mediocre, what gives?
Handchecking is nowhere as physical as it is made out to be. It DOES make it easier to stay in front of your man, but you could NEVER alter the course of the player through handchecking, or they would call a foul. In the 80s they would let that go but for some reason the 80s physical play is assigned to all of the 90s (and then magically after 1998 the defenses all went weak :oldlol:). Most of the hand-checking was done in the backcourt anyways. People act as if this handcheck was some giant wall players had to work around. A hand check is exactly what it says it is, a "check". Helps track the player. You could not interfere with the players movement or push on it. Like today, it is a foul. Was back then, is now.
It's funny because if your handcheck in any way obstructed the player from getting to the basket (ie. too physical, nearing a push) you would instantly be whistled for a foul. The handcheck was more physical in the 70s than 80s/early 90s. But still, to be honesst I'm not even sure the 80s were even more physical than today. You see the same number of ridiculous calls (players bitched and flopped less often though) back then as now. The posters making these wild allegations wouldn't know though, they've seen a couple of selected YouTube clips and doubt many have even sat through a single average 80s regular season game. 60+ FTA games were the average back then (look it up). For all the moaning about free throw attempts after 2005, teams on average shot less than 1 extra FT the following year.
So why did the NBA explicitly changed the rules to make the game more offensive oriented and to help perimeter players?
madmax
03-02-2013, 06:38 PM
So why did the NBA explicitly changed the rules to make the game more offensive oriented and to help perimeter players?
because the game was getting WAY too physical and brute by the late 90's. Knicks - Heat battles was some of the most unwatchable garbage basketball ever produced on NBA courts. That shit was barely watchable. No wonder the rules were changed a bit, simply because NBA was losing casual viewers and had to do something to sell the product to masses better
BlackVVaves
03-02-2013, 06:40 PM
Hand checking would only inhibit players with no outside shooting skills at all. Kobe would still be an impossible to stop player, and this version of Bron would still be a dominant player.
Now, pre-2011 Bron would have had a little bit of a problem, I agree. But, still be a very productive player and still impact the game in dominant fashion.
But Wade? Yeah, Wade would likely be the one player who would see the most significant drop off in offensive production.
Asukal
03-02-2013, 06:40 PM
Team defenses now > Back then, especially with the illegal defense rules restricting them (there's a reason the best defensive teams of the era tried to play and get away with a lot of illegal D, when will people understand TEAM DEFENSE is the most important thing in assessing quality of defense)
'
Average athlete now > Back then (watching a typical game, there is a visible difference in lateral quickness/ability to cover floor/recover+contest shots etc etc, the court is and feels a lot smaller now that's why you get a lot of talk of people wanting NBA to expand the sidelines)
Another thing people complain about is stars getting fouls on offensive flops (ticky tack fouls). That has always been the case. Offensive floppers get free throws, it's that simple. That's a reason why Reggie Miller in '90 and '91 averaged more free throws than Jordan did in '92 and '93 (not to mention Mike taking way more shots than him too). You rip through defenders arms, kick out your legs, jump into players, you're going to get the call. You avoid defenders in the air like a D-Rose or MJ (at times)? You're not getting the call. It's just a shame that there's a lot more of that in the game now.
Westbrook and Rose are two of the quickest players I've ever seen, they should be basically unstoppable due to no handchecking/no touch rules right? (especially with respectable mid-range jumpers behind them)? But their scoring efficiency is quite mediocre, what gives?
Handchecking is nowhere as physical as it is made out to be. It DOES make it easier to stay in front of your man, but you could NEVER alter the course of the player through handchecking, or they would call a foul. In the 80s they would let that go but for some reason the 80s physical play is assigned to all of the 90s (and then magically after 1998 the defenses all went weak :oldlol:). Most of the hand-checking was done in the backcourt anyways. People act as if this handcheck was some giant wall players had to work around. A hand check is exactly what it says it is, a "check". Helps track the player. You could not interfere with the players movement or push on it. Like today, it is a foul. Was back then, is now.
It's funny because if your handcheck in any way obstructed the player from getting to the basket (ie. too physical, nearing a push) you would instantly be whistled for a foul. The handcheck was more physical in the 70s than 80s/early 90s. But still, to be honesst I'm not even sure the 80s were even more physical than today. You see the same number of ridiculous calls (players bitched and flopped less often though) back then as now. The posters making these wild allegations wouldn't know though, they've seen a couple of selected YouTube clips and doubt many have even sat through a single average 80s regular season game. 60+ FTA games were the average back then (look it up). For all the moaning about free throw attempts after 2005, teams on average shot less than 1 extra FT the following year.
:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:
:roll: :roll: :roll:
Lebron23
03-02-2013, 06:43 PM
http://www.lowertherim.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/AAGC014.jpg
jstern
03-02-2013, 07:04 PM
It really is just common sense, but of course Gary is going to be thought as an old man who thinks his era is better. It doesn't mean that Lebron still wouldn't be one of the best ever. But it just really common sense especially when you start looking at the production of players after the changes.
He'd also be allowed to push and body any slow and weak defenders of that era.
LBJFTW
03-02-2013, 07:11 PM
LeBron would be a much more dangerous defender without the hand check rule. I like Payton as a player, but LBJ would be an elite NBA player in any era from the 1950's up to the Present Era.
That's what I was thinking when I read this. Funny thing is that what Payton is saying applies to ALL great players in this era. Sure you can hand check LeBron back then, but he would do the same thing on defense, so it's a wash. The whole point is moot.
jstern
03-02-2013, 07:11 PM
Eh, the same "soft, not as physical" complaints people have about the league now, people had back in the '90s. I saw old timers from the '70s on half time segments making fun of how you couldn't guard Jordan because of all the favorable rules for him (isolation, lack of physicality etc). I'll gladly upload video of couple of them talking about this because I think I saved it somewhere. And the same "hand-checking" complaints were going on in 1993, in fact here's an NY Times article:
Published: March 28, 1993
It still doesn't make the points irrelevant. If the rules were harder for perimeter players in the 70s, then common sense tells a person that it wouldn't be as easy for Jordan. He still wouldn't be a scrub, just like Lebron wouldn't be a scrub, and probably a top 2 player still in the league if he played in the 90s
bdreason
03-02-2013, 07:16 PM
Hand checking would do little or nothing to LeBron's game. The guys that would be most effected are the small PG's who run around the court, getting to wherever they want, because nobody can touch them.
Tking714
03-02-2013, 07:50 PM
Haters gon hate
raprap
03-02-2013, 07:59 PM
Lebron is the games most versatile player ever - no exceptions. There's nobody really close. Pippen, who was a top three player for a good part of the mid 90's was probably the closest. Lebron is Pippen in Karl Malone's body, cept that he is faster, quicker, and his touch from 3 point land is a little better than Reggie Miller's average for the 90's, and he's making as many a game as Chris Mullin averaged. Who is faster than Lebron in that era? Jordan is the only better penetrator and the only player better than him in the 90's because Lebron is like a composite sketch of the best otherwise.
He would be the games most adaptable player because he is the most versatile ever. He's unusally strong in any era, he is unusually fast in any era, he unusually explosive in any era, he unsually skilled in any era, he is unusually quick in any era, and has top level instincts, he has a great touch, and his IQ is great as well. Lebron has less limits than any other player. If he can't succeed in another era its because its an era where nobody else benefits from these qualities. Otherwords, it would have to be another sport.
:applause:
The Mamba
03-02-2013, 09:50 PM
Bottom line, most of you don't understand the visible difference in the physicality the game had pre 2005. It was significant. Hell, modern Euroleage and FIBA basketball is known to be the more physically grueling brand of basketball compared to the modern product the league puts out.
And no, hand check wouldn't reduce LeBron, who along with Kobe and Wade are arguably the greatest perimeter talents of all-time this side of Jordan, to mere role player status. GP didn't say that either, so check yourselves from saying he's a bitter old man, making "in my day" type nostalgia arguments.
Hand check would absolutely lessen LeBron's statistical impact. From FG percentage on to volume scoring, or potential play making that would produce assist numbers. Have any of you ever actually played when someone is allowed to body you in your square and physically stay attached to your hip as a defender? It bothers you. It limits you.
If you acknowledge LeBron's weaknesses as a player, hand checking and more physical play would absolutely hinder is perimeter game. LeBron has a slow first step. He's a great penetrator with a head of steam. Thus the use of picks, and with modern no touch rules he can get a head of steam and not have to worry about being touched or bumped by the defender, thus becoming an unstoppable penetrator to the rim.
As we saw when Kobe bodied him in the All Star Game, his perimeter game doesn't translate well to more physical rules on the perimeter. He can't shoot going right off the dribble, and he can't explode going left. Thus, flaws become magnified with more physical defense. Payton's ultimate point.
There are holes in LeBron's game. It isn't flawless. In this current rule setting, he almost is flawless though. That's why he's putting up absurd numbers, on ridiculous efficiency. But right now the NBA is about entertainment, and selling a product. That was the reason for the rule changes on the perimeter. Find the next MJ quickly, big scoring numbers, more highlights, equates to more fans and higher dollar amounts coming into the league. Plus, the league got so physical by the late 90's, the games were brutal and boring to watch.
And LOL @ the hyperbole and agendas in this thread. Pre-2005 was absolutely a more physical brand of basketball, even more so pre 1999 with tougher man defensive rules.
The Iron Fist
03-02-2013, 09:51 PM
Its funny, because people say that Kobe wouldn't last back then because of hand checking, but somehow, lebron would. GP just became a bum in certain peoples eyes.
knicksman
03-02-2013, 09:54 PM
Payton's theory seems to make sense but the reality seems to contradict him. Nique, Malone, King, English scored a ton of points with great efficiency in that supposed handcheck era. Do we think Lebron is a worse scorer than them?
I think hes referring to the 90's and you would see that only jordan averaged above 50%
Poetry
03-02-2013, 11:03 PM
in fact here's an NY Times article:
Published: March 28, 1993
It's not an article, it was a letter to the Sports Editor.
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/03/28/sports/l-hand-check-nba-violence-793393.html
Joshumitsu
03-02-2013, 11:11 PM
Did anyone actually read this article?
Payton never said Lebron wouldn't have been as good. He said it'd be different for Lebron because the defenses would be different and much rougher.
The OP and the journalist changed Payton's word to fit a specific agenda.
IGOTGAME
03-02-2013, 11:23 PM
Its funny, because people say that Kobe wouldn't last back then because of hand checking, but somehow, lebron would. GP just became a bum in certain peoples eyes.
above is a guy who has no idea when the handchecking rules went into effect.
I think hes referring to the 90's and you would see that only jordan averaged above 50%
Huh? In the 1980s and 1990s, everyone shot a higher FG%
Since Chris Mullin in the early 90s, LeBron James was the first perimeter player to average 25+ ppg on 50+%
Reggie Miller who was a jump shoter 98% of the time had 4 seasons shooting 50 FG%.
Drazen Petrovic had 2 seasons.
Jeff Hornacek had 5 seasons.
Even Ricky Pierce had 6 seasons shooting over 50 FG% from the field in the 80's/90s.
Those type of seasons in the mid 80s to early 90s happened all the time. List of other guys who accomplished that feat: Kiki Vandeweghe, Dantley, Mark Aguirre, Dale Ellis, Clyde Drexler, Chris Mullin, Alex English, Bernard King, Jordan, Bird, Gervin, Worthy, Stockton, Johnson, Dr. J, Thompson, Kelly Tripucka and a couple of others came close and I'm sure I am forgetting some names too (stopped happening around mid-late 90s when help defense improved, overall commitment to defense by teams was greater and also perimeter talent was crap) Now if you compare that to the last 15 years, it has been a rarity for a high scoring perimeter player to shoot 50+%. This isn't meant to belittle Jordan or any of the other players I named at all, but it was a different era and the fact of that matter is that the 80s/early 90s was a more wide open game with a lot less defense.
Purvis Short was putting up 26 ppg on near 50%, and I'm to think LeBron James or Kobe Bryant is going to have problems shooting a higher percentage in that era? Especially with Kobe getting a million semi-transition looks all game long, with horrible help defense (which didn't improve until the Pistons showed how), amongst several other factors.
Pointguard
03-03-2013, 01:07 AM
Huh? In the 1980s and 1990s, everyone shot a higher FG%
Since Chris Mullin in the early 90s, LeBron James was the first perimeter player to average 25+ ppg on 50+%
Reggie Miller who was a jump shoter 98% of the time had 4 seasons shooting 50 FG%.
Drazen Petrovic had 2 seasons.
Jeff Hornacek had 5 seasons.
Even Ricky Pierce had 6 seasons shooting over 50 FG% from the field in the 80's/90s.
Those type of seasons in the mid 80s to early 90s happened all the time. List of other guys who accomplished that feat: Kiki Vandeweghe, Dantley, Mark Aguirre, Dale Ellis, Clyde Drexler, Chris Mullin, Alex English, Bernard King, Jordan, Bird, Gervin, Worthy, Stockton, Johnson, Dr. J, Thompson, Kelly Tripucka and a couple of others came close and I'm sure I am forgetting some names too (stopped happening around mid-late 90s when help defense improved, overall commitment to defense by teams was greater and also perimeter talent was crap) Now if you compare that to the last 15 years, it has been a rarity for a high scoring perimeter player to shoot 50+%. This isn't meant to belittle Jordan or any of the other players I named at all, but it was a different era and the fact of that matter is that the 80s/early 90s was a more wide open game with a lot less defense.
Purvis Short was putting up 26 ppg on near 50%, and I'm to think LeBron James or Kobe Bryant is going to have problems shooting a higher percentage in that era? Especially with Kobe getting a million semi-transition looks all game long, with horrible help defense (which didn't improve until the Pistons showed how), amongst several other factors.
:applause: :applause: :applause:
Lebron gets hacked and pushed all day anyway...
jstern
03-03-2013, 05:53 AM
Huh? In the 1980s and 1990s, everyone shot a higher FG%
Since Chris Mullin in the early 90s, LeBron James was the first perimeter player to average 25+ ppg on 50+%
Reggie Miller who was a jump shoter 98% of the time had 4 seasons shooting 50 FG%.
Drazen Petrovic had 2 seasons.
Jeff Hornacek had 5 seasons.
Even Ricky Pierce had 6 seasons shooting over 50 FG% from the field in the 80's/90s.
Those type of seasons in the mid 80s to early 90s happened all the time. List of other guys who accomplished that feat: Kiki Vandeweghe, Dantley, Mark Aguirre, Dale Ellis, Clyde Drexler, Chris Mullin, Alex English, Bernard King, Jordan, Bird, Gervin, Worthy, Stockton, Johnson, Dr. J, Thompson, Kelly Tripucka and a couple of others came close and I'm sure I am forgetting some names too (stopped happening around mid-late 90s when help defense improved, overall commitment to defense by teams was greater and also perimeter talent was crap) Now if you compare that to the last 15 years, it has been a rarity for a high scoring perimeter player to shoot 50+%. This isn't meant to belittle Jordan or any of the other players I named at all, but it was a different era and the fact of that matter is that the 80s/early 90s was a more wide open game with a lot less defense.
Purvis Short was putting up 26 ppg on near 50%, and I'm to think LeBron James or Kobe Bryant is going to have problems shooting a higher percentage in that era? Especially with Kobe getting a million semi-transition looks all game long, with horrible help defense (which didn't improve until the Pistons showed how), amongst several other factors.
I quickly checked the last seasons when they shot 50% for Miller and Mullin and like always it seems that you always try to mislead people by not putting the season into context. Mullin seemed to only take shots when he had one, because he didn't score as much, and Reggie Miller took a lot less 3 pointers than today's players while shooting .42% from downtown. Obviously their FG% is going to be higher. If you look at the league from the 80s and compare them to the league a couple of years ago, even though they had more centers then, they still bot shot 48% for two. League wide.
Edit: Checked Jeff Hornacek's last season shooting 50%, took a lot less 3 pointers compared to today's players while shooting 46% for 3 because of the shorter line.
DJ Leon Smith
03-03-2013, 06:12 AM
Team defenses now > Back then, especially with the illegal defense rules restricting them (there's a reason the best defensive teams of the era tried to play and get away with a lot of illegal D, when will people understand TEAM DEFENSE is the most important thing in assessing quality of defense)
'
Average athlete now > Back then (watching a typical game, there is a visible difference in lateral quickness/ability to cover floor/recover+contest shots etc etc, the court is and feels a lot smaller now that's why you get a lot of talk of people wanting NBA to expand the sidelines)
Another thing people complain about is stars getting fouls on offensive flops (ticky tack fouls). That has always been the case. Offensive floppers get free throws, it's that simple. That's a reason why Reggie Miller in '90 and '91 averaged more free throws than Jordan did in '92 and '93 (not to mention Mike taking way more shots than him too). You rip through defenders arms, kick out your legs, jump into players, you're going to get the call. You avoid defenders in the air like a D-Rose or MJ (at times)? You're not getting the call. It's just a shame that there's a lot more of that in the game now.
Westbrook and Rose are two of the quickest players I've ever seen, they should be basically unstoppable due to no handchecking/no touch rules right? (especially with respectable mid-range jumpers behind them)? But their scoring efficiency is quite mediocre, what gives?
Handchecking is nowhere as physical as it is made out to be. It DOES make it easier to stay in front of your man, but you could NEVER alter the course of the player through handchecking, or they would call a foul. In the 80s they would let that go but for some reason the 80s physical play is assigned to all of the 90s (and then magically after 1998 the defenses all went weak :oldlol:). Most of the hand-checking was done in the backcourt anyways. People act as if this handcheck was some giant wall players had to work around. A hand check is exactly what it says it is, a "check". Helps track the player. You could not interfere with the players movement or push on it. Like today, it is a foul. Was back then, is now.
It's funny because if your handcheck in any way obstructed the player from getting to the basket (ie. too physical, nearing a push) you would instantly be whistled for a foul. The handcheck was more physical in the 70s than 80s/early 90s. But still, to be honesst I'm not even sure the 80s were even more physical than today. You see the same number of ridiculous calls (players bitched and flopped less often though) back then as now. The posters making these wild allegations wouldn't know though, they've seen a couple of selected YouTube clips and doubt many have even sat through a single average 80s regular season game. 60+ FTA games were the average back then (look it up). For all the moaning about free throw attempts after 2005, teams on average shot less than 1 extra FT the following year.
Sorry you had to waste all those words because the pic of yours I was clowning shows none of that happening. It's a standard double team.
LOL at this pic being used to highlight how this era is similar to the 80s/90s.
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0609/nba_g_kobe2_576.jpg
Good effort but your arms are too short to box with the wordcount god pauk.
So then I guess Gary Payton wouldn't be as good of a defender in this era is a fair assessment?
andgar923
03-03-2013, 06:27 AM
GP played in both eras.
He's played vs Bron, played with Kobe and Wade, or are people forgetting that he won a ring in this era?
Idiots that haven't experienced physical basketball arguing as tho they have, cute.
Tking714
03-03-2013, 06:41 AM
So then I guess Gary Payton wouldn't be as good of a defender in this era is a fair assessment?
:lol haha, but try telling him that
jstern
03-03-2013, 06:48 AM
So then I guess Gary Payton wouldn't be as good of a defender in this era is a fair assessment?
He wouldn't, and I think he would agree, same way others agree that they wouldn't be as effective. What he's saying is not out there, even Kobe has said that the league is less physical.
WillC
03-03-2013, 06:53 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQAdKkh5CJo
Funny Bruceblitz video on the topic. :oldlol: He's right though.
What a self-righteous ass. Anger management problems? No doubt about it.
ILLsmak
03-03-2013, 07:02 AM
Yeah, of course it would affect him. How can anyone say more leeway for the defender wouldn't make a difference? his statement is true, it wouldn't be as easy for Lebron.
Dude probably wouldn't be shooting 56%.
Defenders now have to play D as well as trying not to foul. Someone driving on you, putting your hand on them allows you to balance and kind of sync with them. Of course, they can spin off you, too. But playing defense with only your chest is amazingly hard. Each time someone hand checks you, it slows you down. You may be able to get through it, but the fact that they are applying force, even a tiny bit, on your body affects your movement. It's amazing people want to believe that doesn't happen.
-Smak
plowking
03-03-2013, 07:05 AM
I've played tough, physical basketball in streetball, and I've played organized ball that's far more strict in terms of officiating, which has zone.
It's always been harder to score against the zone with players packing the paint than it was against a physical defender who you get to isolate though. Just my opinion.
Breezy
03-03-2013, 07:31 AM
First and foremost Gary Payton is wrong. Lebron would dominate the 80's and 90's just as well as he is now for a lot of reasons that I am prepared to defend.
HOWEVER!!!! The bigger issue is people quoting Players as though that lends ANY CREDIBILITY AT ALL to their argument.
Payton, just like a bunch of other players all seem to think whatever their "era" was was the best and players from different eras couldnt hang. It's a pride issue more than anything else.
Shaq's expert advice is for every big man to average 28points and 15 rebounds. Who knew it was that simple?
Bill Russel thinks than no championship team since he retired could beat his celtics.
Wilt Chamberlain thought that he could average 60-70 points ppg in the 90's
Jordan had a Brilliant insight. "5 is more than 1"....Math genius!!!!! He also was only willing to admit that kobe was a top 10 guard of all time.
Mark Jackson said in 2006 that Kobe was the best ever... :hammerhead:
Charles barkley thought that yao ming would never score 20 points in a game.
...The list goes on and on.
This isn't brain surgery it's Basketball. It's not that complicated, because if it was most of them wouldn't be doing it.
dunksby
03-03-2013, 07:35 AM
Huh? In the 1980s and 1990s, everyone shot a higher FG%
Since Chris Mullin in the early 90s, LeBron James was the first perimeter player to average 25+ ppg on 50+%
Reggie Miller who was a jump shoter 98% of the time had 4 seasons shooting 50 FG%.
Drazen Petrovic had 2 seasons.
Jeff Hornacek had 5 seasons.
Even Ricky Pierce had 6 seasons shooting over 50 FG% from the field in the 80's/90s.
Those type of seasons in the mid 80s to early 90s happened all the time. List of other guys who accomplished that feat: Kiki Vandeweghe, Dantley, Mark Aguirre, Dale Ellis, Clyde Drexler, Chris Mullin, Alex English, Bernard King, Jordan, Bird, Gervin, Worthy, Stockton, Johnson, Dr. J, Thompson, Kelly Tripucka and a couple of others came close and I'm sure I am forgetting some names too (stopped happening around mid-late 90s when help defense improved, overall commitment to defense by teams was greater and also perimeter talent was crap) Now if you compare that to the last 15 years, it has been a rarity for a high scoring perimeter player to shoot 50+%. This isn't meant to belittle Jordan or any of the other players I named at all, but it was a different era and the fact of that matter is that the 80s/early 90s was a more wide open game with a lot less defense.
Purvis Short was putting up 26 ppg on near 50%, and I'm to think LeBron James or Kobe Bryant is going to have problems shooting a higher percentage in that era? Especially with Kobe getting a million semi-transition looks all game long, with horrible help defense (which didn't improve until the Pistons showed how), amongst several other factors.
You are a great poster, I hope you don't get discouraged by trolls and alt accounts dissing anyone with a good head on his shoulders. :cheers: :applause:
arifgokcen
03-03-2013, 08:02 AM
First and foremost Gary Payton is wrong. Lebron would dominate the 80's and 90's just as well as he is now for a lot of reasons that I am prepared to defend.
HOWEVER!!!! The bigger issue is people quoting Players as though that lends ANY CREDIBILITY AT ALL to their argument.
Payton, just like a bunch of other players all seem to think whatever their "era" was was the best and players from different eras couldnt hang. It's a pride issue more than anything else.
Shaq's expert advice is for every big man to average 28points and 15 rebounds. Who knew it was that simple?
Bill Russel thinks than no championship team since he retired could beat his celtics.
Wilt Chamberlain thought that he could average 60-70 points ppg in the 90's
Jordan had a Brilliant insight. "5 is more than 1"....Math genius!!!!! He also was only willing to admit that kobe was a top 10 guard of all time.
Mark Jackson said in 2006 that Kobe was the best ever... :hammerhead:
Charles barkley thought that yao ming would never score 20 points in a game.
...The list goes on and on.
This isn't brain surgery it's Basketball. It's not that complicated, because if it was most of them wouldn't be doing it.
+111111111111111111
jstern
03-03-2013, 08:13 AM
First and foremost Gary Payton is wrong. Lebron would dominate the 80's and 90's just as well as he is now for a lot of reasons that I am prepared to defend.
HOWEVER!!!! The bigger issue is people quoting Players as though that lends ANY CREDIBILITY AT ALL to their argument.
Payton, just like a bunch of other players all seem to think whatever their "era" was was the best and players from different eras couldnt hang. It's a pride issue more than anything else.
Shaq's expert advice is for every big man to average 28points and 15 rebounds. Who knew it was that simple?
Bill Russel thinks than no championship team since he retired could beat his celtics.
Wilt Chamberlain thought that he could average 60-70 points ppg in the 90's
Jordan had a Brilliant insight. "5 is more than 1"....Math genius!!!!! He also was only willing to admit that kobe was a top 10 guard of all time.
Mark Jackson said in 2006 that Kobe was the best ever... :hammerhead:
Charles barkley thought that yao ming would never score 20 points in a game.
...The list goes on and on.
This isn't brain surgery it's Basketball. It's not that complicated, because if it was most of them wouldn't be doing it.
Haven't read the rest, I first just wanted to respond to the bolded area by saying that he didn't say Lebron wouldn't dominate.
I think Lebron would still be a top 2 player, and I think Payton would think something similar.
I've played tough, physical basketball in streetball, and I've played organized ball that's far more strict in terms of officiating, which has zone.
It's always been harder to score against the zone with players packing the paint than it was against a physical defender who you get to isolate though. Just my opinion.
3 second rule in today's league.
And I would imagine that packing the paint for the average person would be harder than physical defense because they have no jump shot. Unless the physical defense was from a really good defensive player, which would also be rare.
comerb
03-03-2013, 08:43 AM
Wait wait wait...
So Scottie Pippin... Who is one of the best defenders of all time... His opinion is shit. But Gary Payton's opinion is gold because... He's one of the best defenders of all time.
:wtf:
Tking714
03-03-2013, 09:17 AM
I've played tough, physical basketball in streetball, and I've played organized ball that's far more strict in terms of officiating, which has zone.
It's always been harder to score against the zone with players packing the paint than it was against a physical defender who you get to isolate though. Just my opinion.
This.
Running into 3 players taller than me standing with their arms up is much harder to score on than some scrub who is my height trying to grab my arm.
willds09
03-03-2013, 09:59 AM
He would still be better than you Mr. Payton.
are u mad?:biggums: :kobe: :lebroncry:
Just2McFly
03-03-2013, 10:13 AM
Would Lebron still be allowed to use his off arm to push the defenders out of the way? Serious question.
The league was in hurry to outlaw the Durant rip move, but apparently they have no problem with Lebron pushing people away with his off arm.
You are pitiful. A knicks fan complaining about LeBron's push offs like he's world renowned for that when your division rival has a guy who's been doing for over a decade.
chips93
03-03-2013, 10:27 AM
So then I guess Gary Payton wouldn't be as good of a defender in this era is a fair assessment?
apparently so
DatAsh
03-03-2013, 12:10 PM
Eh, the same "soft, not as physical" complaints people have about the league now, people had back in the '90s. I saw old timers from the '70s on half time segments making fun of how you couldn't guard Jordan because of all the favorable rules for him (isolation, lack of physicality etc). I'll gladly upload video of couple of them talking about this because I think I saved it somewhere. And the same "hand-checking" complaints were going on in 1993, in fact here's an NY Times article:
Published: March 28, 1993
Great post. The hand-checking rule changes aren't exclusive to the most recent era. Arguably the most significant hand check change came in 1994, which was before the majority of Payton's career, and even that change wasn't the first. The league has been making it harder on the big man, easier on the guard for quite some time now; so while Lebron may have a slightly easier time getting to the pasket than Payton did, Payton probably had an easier time than Jordan did in the 80s, and Jordan had an easier time getting there in the 80s than Erving did in the 70s.
Here are some of the rules that have been enforced on hand checking as an attempt to make it easier for perimeter players to get to the basket.
1978-79
La Frescobaldi
03-03-2013, 12:16 PM
This is why the media is and always was utterly worthless as a method to select anything in sports.
Does anyone , anywhere , at any time, disagree with these simple truths?
Fact: People tend to believe what they read.
Fact: techniques of propaganda are well-advanced.
Fact: sportswriters have a fundamental requirement of livelihood to create newsworthy articles.
Fact: the accolades commonly used to "evaluate" players, are given by the same sportswriters who are forced to live and function according to the very same facts of nature just listed.
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The very same media figures who created a false god 10 years ago by proclaiming that Michael Jordan was the greatest basketball player of all-time - are now proclaiming the next generation's greatest player is better than the last.
And the very same TYPE OF PEOPLE who were swayed by these sportswriters and their propaganda, are going to be swayed by them now. Very soon people will be proclaiming James is the GOAT - not just morons on InsideHoops, but supposedly impartial, knowledgeable figures in sports.
************************************************** *****
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For all these years and decades, Oscar Robertson has wisely ignored the stupid & vapid question "who is the greatest of all time." The Big O was probably the first significant figure in basketball to proclaim that LeBron James was at least as good as Jordan and quite probably better.
And those who had drunk of the Jordan propaganda... who drank the vampire's blood and became mindless disciples of the media's darling...... they were then forced to smear Oscar because their world view couldn't possibly support such a claim.
When Kareem Abdul-Jabbar wrote an open letter on the subject to Scottie Pippen, the vampires leapt from every casket, teeth glittering and clutching hands groping for #33's throat.
Just like vampire ghouls in the movies, these so-called defenders of the GOAT know full well they must protect the vampire leader AT ALL COSTS or their whole world will vanish in smoke.
Thus has it always been.
Poor Shaquille O'Neal!! Poor Kobe Bryant!! They appeared on the scene too soon!! The propaganda machine had already been used to the fullest, it was out of gas, exhausted, needed time to replenish before being used like that again.
Even the mindless vampire ghouls couldn't be moved to a new source of blood so soon!!
Where's Van Helsing? He's got a lot of work to do around here
BlackVVaves
03-03-2013, 01:13 PM
Bottom line, most of you don't understand the visible difference in the physicality the game had pre 2005. It was significant. Hell, modern Euroleage and FIBA basketball is known to be the more physically grueling brand of basketball compared to the modern product the league puts out.
And no, hand check wouldn't reduce LeBron, who along with Kobe and Wade are arguably the greatest perimeter talents of all-time this side of Jordan, to mere role player status. GP didn't say that either, so check yourselves from saying he's a bitter old man, making "in my day" type nostalgia arguments.
Hand check would absolutely lessen LeBron's statistical impact. From FG percentage on to volume scoring, or potential play making that would produce assist numbers. Have any of you ever actually played when someone is allowed to body you in your square and physically stay attached to your hip as a defender? It bothers you. It limits you.
If you acknowledge LeBron's weaknesses as a player, hand checking and more physical play would absolutely hinder is perimeter game. LeBron has a slow first step. He's a great penetrator with a head of steam. Thus the use of picks, and with modern no touch rules he can get a head of steam and not have to worry about being touched or bumped by the defender, thus becoming an unstoppable penetrator to the rim.
As we saw when Kobe bodied him in the All Star Game, his perimeter game doesn't translate well to more physical rules on the perimeter. He can't shoot going right off the dribble, and he can't explode going left. Thus, flaws become magnified with more physical defense. Payton's ultimate point.
There are holes in LeBron's game. It isn't flawless. In this current rule setting, he almost is flawless though. That's why he's putting up absurd numbers, on ridiculous efficiency. But right now the NBA is about entertainment, and selling a product. That was the reason for the rule changes on the perimeter. Find the next MJ quickly, big scoring numbers, more highlights, equates to more fans and higher dollar amounts coming into the league. Plus, the league got so physical by the late 90's, the games were brutal and boring to watch.
And LOL @ the hyperbole and agendas in this thread. Pre-2005 was absolutely a more physical brand of basketball, even more so pre 1999 with tougher man defensive rules.
Most formidable and accurate post based on esteemed observation and assessment - NOT fanboy opinion - in the entire thread. Future rep.
Rysio
03-03-2013, 02:19 PM
i dont think there is an era that can stop him from stat padding so he'd always fool the dumb uneducated fans into thinking he's best player in the league as he has done today when in reality he's just barley top 5.
CavaliersFTW
03-03-2013, 02:28 PM
i dont think there is an era that can stop him from stat padding so he'd always fool the dumb uneducated fans into thinking he's best player in the league as he has done today when in reality he's just barley top 5.
http://fall11ethnobotany.providence.wikispaces.net/file/view/barley.JPG/279994840/barley.JPG
andgar923
03-04-2013, 03:02 PM
These are just some clips
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WpkXlrJxtw
This is what Mj had to go through. As I mentioned, these are some clips, he was facing this type of defense on damn near every single play, whether he had the ball or not, whether he was on offense or defense he was getting held, he was getting bumped. Look at how crowded the lanes are, look how Shrempf a slow big man can stay in front of MJ by using angles and hand checking along with a crowded paint.
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