Vote for the Top 10 Defensive Players in NBA History

[WillC]

Rank the top 10 defensive players in NBA history.

Short list:

Alonzo Mourning
Alvin Robertson
Andrei Kirilenko
Anthony Mason
Artis Gilmore
Ben Wallace
Bill Russell
Bill Sharman
Bill Walton
Bob Dandridge
Bob Pettit
Bobby Jones
Bobby Wanzer
Bruce Bowen
Buck Williams
Caldwell Jones
Charles Oakley
Chris Paul
Clyde Lovellette
Dan Roundfield
Dave Cowens
Dave Debusschere
David Robinson
Dennis Johnson
Dennis Rodman
Dick McGuire
Dikembe Mutombo
Dolph Schayes
Don Buse
Doug Christie
Dwight Howard
Dwyane Wade
Elgin Baylor
Fat Lever
Frank Ramsey
Gary Payton
George Yardley
Gerald Wallace
Gus Johnson
Hakeem Olajuwon
Hal Greer
Horace Grant
Jamaal Wilkes
Jason Kidd
Jerry Sloan
Jerry West
Joe Dumars
John Havlicek
John Stockton
K.C. Jones
Kareem Abdul-jabbar
Kevin Garnett
Kevin McHale
Kobe Bryant
Larry Bird
Latrell Sprewell
LeBron James
Lenny Wilkens
Manute Bol
Marcus Camby
Mark Eaton
Maurice Cheeks
Maurice Lucas
Maurice Stokes
Michael Cooper
Michael Jordan
Mookie Blaylock
Moses Malone
Nate McMillan
Nate Thurmond
Norm Van Lier
Oscar Robertson
Patrick Ewing
Paul Pressey
Paul Seymour
Paul Silas
Rajon Rondo
Ron Artest
Scottie Pippen
Serge Ibaka
Shane Battier
Shaquille O'Neal
Shawn Marion
Sidney Moncrief
Slater Martin
Theo Ratliff
Tim Duncan
Tom Gola
Tom Sanders
Tyson Chandler
Walt Frazier
Willis Reed
Wilt Chamberlain

[millwad]

1. Olajuwon

[WillC]

1. Olajuwon

I'd like to add up the votes, but need a top 10 to be able to do so.

[L.Kizzle]

Shawn Marion should at least be on the short list.


but my top ten would be:

by position, it's too hard just doing a ten. I can narrow it to ten latter.


Center
1 Bill Russell
2 Wilt Chamberlain
3 Nate Thurmond
4 Hakeem Olajuwon
5 Dikembe Mutombo
6 Lew Alcindor
7 Bill Walton
8 Ben Wallace
9 David Robinson
10 Alonzo Mourning



Forward
1 Dennis Rodman
2 Scottie Pippen
3 Kevin Garnett
4 Tim Duncan
5 Gus Johnson
6 Dave Debusschere
7 Michael Cooper
8 Ron Artest
9 Bobby Jones
10 Maurice Lucas


Guards
1 Walt Frazier
2 Sidney Moncrief
3 Gary Payton
4 Dennis Johnson
5 Michael Jordan
6 Norm Van Lier
7 Joe Dumars
8 K.C. Jones
9 Jerry West
10 Jason Kidd

[ThaRegul8r]

I'm not sure why some of these names are even on here when discussing "greatest defensive players in NBA history," specifically, top ten. Bob Cousy, for instance, being a nominee for one of the 10 greatest defensive players ever to play the game is utterly absurd. On some lists it seems that people just list names of every good player they can think of rather than players who actually qualify for whatever the given category is that's being discussed.

[I<3NBA]

Rodman, Ben Wallace, Pippen

[LA Lakers]

No love for Michael Cooper?

[RobertdeMeijer]

Okay, I'll do my best:

1. Bill Russell
2. Dennis Rodman
3. Hakeem Olajuwon
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Kevin Garnett
6. David Robinson
7. Tim Duncan
8. Scottie Pippen
9. Michael Jordan
10. Sidney Moncrief


Ugh, I wish I could add B. Wallace and D. Howard and Payton and Bowen and W. Frazier and Dennis Johnson and Horace Grant and Bobby Jones and T. R. Dunn and John Stockton and Dave DeBusschere and Michael Cooper and Mutombo and McHale and Van Lier...

[WillC]

Shawn Marion should at least be on the short list.

Added.

If you could narrow down your top 10 overall, that would be great. Thanks for the positional lists though.

[WillC]

I'm not sure why some of these names are even on here when discussing "greatest defensive players in NBA history," specifically, top ten. Bob Cousy, for instance, being a nominee for one of the 10 greatest defensive players ever to play the game is utterly absurd. On some lists it seems that people just list names of every good player they can think of rather than players who actually qualify for whatever the given category is that's being discussed.

Yeah, Cousy's name probably doesn't belong on the shortlist.

However, it certainly wasn't due to me simply selecting the best players ever; I tried to select players who had All-Defensive 1st or 2nd Team selections or, if they played prior to that accolade being given out, then those who were regarded as great defenders.

Cousy's name appeared on one of the All-Defensive 2nd Team's selected by GOAT in an excellent article he wrote a while back (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=190405), hence he made the list by default.

[Sarcastic]

Pat Ewing anchored one of the top defenses of all time, and no one has him on their list. You are all just haters or just dumb. Which is it?

Mourning ahead of Pat :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Walton ahead of Pat :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Sharmer]

Rodman is my top pick, mostly because he purely specialised in rebounding and play hard on the defensive end.

[RobertdeMeijer]

Ewing was indeed very good and in my book better than Walton and Mourning, even better than Mutombo. But he never had the presence of Olajuwon or Robinson.

[KOBE143]

1. Hakeem Olajuwon
2. Scottie Pippen
3. Dennis Rodman
4. Kevin Garnett
5. Kobe Bryant
6. Tim Duncan
7. Ben Wallace
8. David Robinson
9. Garry Payton
10. Michael Jordan

[WillC]

01 - Bill Russell
02 - Hakeem Olajuwon
03 - Scottie Pippen
04 - Kevin Garnett
05 - Dennis Rodman
06 - Michael Jordan
07 - Walt Frazier
08 - Wilt Chamberlain
09 - Jerry West
10 - David Robinson

[elementally morale]

I'm not going to post the names of guys whose prime was earlier than 1980, because I haven't seen them play. Footage won't do justice, you can put together a 3 minute clip of any average defender making him look great. With that said:

1. Hakeem
2. Rodman
3. Payton
4. Pippen
5. Garnett
6. Kidd
7. Jordan
8. Mourning
9. Artest
10. Mutombo

[ThaRegul8r]

I continue to find it sad the disrespect Nate Thurmond gets, when he was recognized during the time he actually played as second only to Russell, yet as time passes and you get people who don't know much about the era talking about all-time great defenders, Thurmond gets completely overlooked, as the people looking back now after the fact would only be aware of the big names, which were Russell and Chamberlain.

[WillC]

I continue to find it sad the disrespect Nate Thurmond gets, when he was recognized during the time he actually played as second only to Russell, yet as time passes and you get people who don't know much about the era talking about all-time great defenders, Thurmond gets completely overlooked, as the people looking back now after the fact would only be aware of the big names, which were Russell and Chamberlain.

Why are you so angry? That's your second negative post in this thread.

You talk as if you know everything and others know nothing.

I'm well aware of Thurmond's incredible defensive abilities. However, there are dozens of legendary defenders to choose from, so he's not a lock for the top 10.

There's nothing disrespectful about having Thurmond about 10th to 15th all-time amongst the best defenders in basketball history.

I think you're the only one around here who is being disrespectful by assuming that others know less than you do.

[elementally morale]

I continue to find it sad the disrespect Nate Thurmond gets, when he was recognized during the time he actually played as second only to Russell, yet as time passes and you get people who don't know much about the era talking about all-time great defenders, Thurmond gets completely overlooked, as the people looking back now after the fact would only be aware of the big names, which were Russell and Chamberlain.

Talking about defensive impact based on stats is false on too many levels. Who here has seen Nate Thurmond play regularly? Not some games or some 5 minute long video clip but, say, a season?

It's sad enough to see 15 year old kids arguing Stockton vs. Isiah, when all they saw was a few games worth of footage (if that much). One should really refrain from posting on matters he has no clue about.

I'm almost 40. When it comes to Bill Russell, all I can say is 'I don't know' though. I have never seen the guy play, for crying out loud. Talking of Nate Thurmond's defensive impact... come on.

[Teanett]

bizmac biyombo!!!

[toxicxr6]

Here are the All time career defensive ratings


1. Gar Heard 95.3
2. Tim Duncan 95.39
3. Dave Cowens* 95.52
4. David Robinson* 95.65
5. Ben Wallace 95.76
6. Clifford Ray 96.26
7. Wes Unseld* 96.31
8. Sam Lacey 96.45
9. Jim Ard 96.53
10. George Johnson 96.67
11. Paul Silas 96.77
12. Elvin Hayes* 97.36
13. George McGinnis 97.61
14. Kim Hughes 97.66
15. Hakeem Olajuwon* 97.89
16. Dwight Howard 98.04
17. Connie Hawkins* 98.08
18. Bob Lanier* 98.40
19. Jim Brewer 98.51
20. Marcus Camby 98.51
21. Steve Mix 98.72
22. Mel Daniels* 98.91
23. Kevin Garnett 98.99
24. Patrick Ewing* 99.08
25. Yao Ming 99.10
26. Rich Kelley 99.18
27. Dikembe Mutombo 99.19
28. Bobby Jones 99.25
29. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 99.30
30. Len Elmore 99.33
31. Rick Barry* 99.44
32. Julius Erving* 99.53
33. Alonzo Mourning 99.57
34. Ted McClain 99.59
35. Manu Ginobili 99.67
36. Truck Robinson 99.74
37. Bob McAdoo* 99.75
38. Jermaine O'Neal 99.85
39. Marvin Webster 99.92
40. Alvan Adams 99.94
41. Shawn Kemp 100.14
42. Darryl Dawkins 100.25
43. Dennis Rodman* 100.26
44. Jim Chones 100.27
45. Tree Rollins 100.36
46. Mark Eaton 100.37
47. Bruce Seals 100.37
48. Darnell Hillman 100.43
49. Spencer Haywood 100.44
50. Bob Dandridge 100.48

[Miller for 3]

The fact that some people are putting Jordan ahead of Moncrief is just :facepalm. And if Drob is not in your top 3 I'm negging you

[PyrrhusX]

1. Hakeem Olajuwon
2. Bill Russell
3. Dennis Rodman
4. Scottie Pippen
5. David Robinson
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Walt Frazier
8. Kevin Garnett
9. Garry Payton
10. Tim Duncan

[Flamboyant]

Where the hell is Metta World Peace?? :facepalm

[COLOR="White"]White Text Entertainment

[L.Kizzle]

Pat Ewing anchored one of the top defenses of all time, and no one has him on their list. You are all just haters or just dumb. Which is it?

Mourning ahead of Pat :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Walton ahead of Pat :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
We're not gonna act like Oakley, Anthony Mason, Smith, Derek Harper, Starks didn't play for the Knicks, all good defenders, not like Zo in Miami or Deke in ATL where they basically were the defense (save Mookie and PJ Brown.)

[HardwoodLegend]

Pardon my ignorance (I don't know enough to compile a Top 10), but what is Kevin Love doing on the short list while Bryon "Jordan Stopper" Russell and Ruben "Kobe Stopper" Patterson are absent?

[Colbertnation64]

I'm not going to post the names of guys whose prime was earlier than 1980, because I haven't seen them play. Footage won't do justice, you can put together a 3 minute clip of any average defender making him look great. With that said:

1. Hakeem
2. Rodman
3. Payton
4. Pippen
5. Garnett
6. Kidd
7. Jordan
8. Mourning
9. Artest
10. Mutombo

If you don't feel you can make a judgment correctly, then why would you even make an "all time" list.

[Vertical-24]

Great topic, WillC! Can generate a lot of discussion and opinion

Short List:

1. Bill Russell
2. Dennis Rodman (gets severely underrated to me)
3. Hakeem Olajuwon
4. Scottie Pippen
5. Dikembe Mutombo
6. Kevin Garnett
7. Gary Payton
8. Michael Jordan
9. Dwight Howard (I actually believe he will climb the rankings a lot further when his career is over)
10. Ben Wallace

Honorable Mentions: Walt Frazier, Joe Dumars, Tim Duncan, Patrick Ewing, Sidney Moncrief

[pauk]

This is kindof impossible to rank for me because of the variety of defensive roles/experts... interior/perimeter/allround...

For interior you could rank only 10 guys like Russell, Hakeem etc. Guys that were experts on guarding the paint.

For perimeter you could rank only 10 guys like Payton, Jordan etc. Guys that had nasty lateral quickness, hands, peskyness to guard the perimeter.

For allround/versatility you could rank only 10 guys like Pippen, Rodman, Lebron etc. Guys that could do about everything & guard up to 5/all positions, but were not best ever at one thing.

I can give you my top 10 but it would be in no order and i most likely would leave out somebody who might deserve to be there even more.

There needs to be categories... not positional categories but expertise/role categories (interior/perimeter/allround).... and even then i find it extremly hard to rank everybody accurately & factually... Do i go by impact? Do i go by 1st all-defensive honors? Do i go by DPOYs? Do i go by stats and advanced stats like defensive ratings? Do i go by highlights? Do i go by biasness?
Do i ...........

[kennethgriffin]

you can't rank defensive guards with centers

people will just rank mostly centers over guards because they think rebounding is part of defense and it makes them a better defender than a guard

also with blocks. when its actually bad defense to try and block an outside shooter

and steals are from playing mostly passing lanes as a roamer

true defensive skills are measured by watching the games

and defensive teams should count

for instance. one person ranked kobe as not a top 10 defensive guard all time. and hes got the most all defensive 1st teams in nba history

:confusedshrug:

in his prime he was a lock down stopper. and its way harder to defend and score at the same time

guys who were great on both ends should get more credit than role players who used 100% energy on defense.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Best defensive players I saw:

Rodman
Moncrief
Hakeem
Duncan
Wallace (Ben)
Robinson
Mutombo
Payton
Pippen
Jordan

[JMT]

Bill Russell
Dikembe Mutombo
Wilt Chamberlain
Bobby Jones
Dennis Rodman
Kevin Garnett
Walt Frazier
Norm Van Lier
Gary Payton
Sidney Moncrief

Not really a 1 through 10 list. Tried to break up a bit by position.

[KG215]

you can't rank defensive guards with centers
In other words, you (kennethgriffin) don't think you can rank guards with centers on a list like this because it means your lord and savoir Kobe Bryant won't be ranked in anyone's top 10.

I've got news for you...Kobe would be borderline top 10 on a lot of people's list if they did rank guards and bigs separately.


people will just rank mostly centers over guards because they think rebounding is part of defense and it makes them a better defender than a guard
:facepalm


also with blocks. when its actually bad defense to try and block an outside shooter

and steals are from playing mostly passing lanes as a roamer

:facepalm


guys who were great on both ends should get more credit than role players who used 100% energy on defense.
:facepalm


in his prime he was a lock down stopper. and its way harder to defend and score at the same time
:facepalm


and defensive teams should count

for instance. one person ranked kobe as not a top 10 defensive guard all time. and hes got the most all defensive 1st teams in nba history
http://www.inthemomlight.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/cry-baby.jpg

[elementally morale]

If you don't feel you can make a judgment correctly, then why would you even make an "all time" list.

These players I saw playing, so I feel I can list them. I refrain listing players pre 1980. Therefore, my list is not an all-time list, just a post 1980 list. I know it's arbitrary, but 1980 is the year I started watching any NBA games.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

you can't rank defensive guards with centers

people will just rank mostly centers over guards because they think rebounding is part of defense and it makes them a better defender than a guard

also with blocks. when its actually bad defense to try and block an outside shooter

and steals are from playing mostly passing lanes as a roamer

true defensive skills are measured by watching the games

and defensive teams should count

for instance. one person ranked kobe as not a top 10 defensive guard all time. and hes got the most all defensive 1st teams in nba history

:confusedshrug:

in his prime he was a lock down stopper. and its way harder to defend and score at the same time

guys who were great on both ends should get more credit than role players who used 100% energy on defense.

I'm convinced this clown is a gimmick. There's no way he's not on Jeff's payroll. :roll:

[DatAsh]

In terms of impact

1. Bill Russell
2. Nate Thurmond
3. Hakeem Olajuwon
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. David Robinson
6. Ben Wallace
7. Tim Duncan
8. Kevin Garnett
9. Dennis Rodman
10. Dikembe Mutombo

I'm confident with the top 5, but not as much with 6-10.

I think it's very difficult for any perimeter defender to have the same defensive impact as big man who's protecting the paint. A perimeter defender would have to be comparatively much better by position to have equal impact. Taking that into consideration, I might say

1. Bill Russell
2. Dennis Rodman
3. Scottie Pippen
4. Nate Thurmond
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. Michael Jordan
7. Sidney Moncrief
8. Gary Payton
9. Wilt Chamberlain
10. Walt Frazier

I'd would much prefer the first list though; it's more true to what I believe really matters - a player's overall impact - and I'm much less confident with the ordering of the second list. It's difficult to rank guards with big men, even with a positional handicap.

[KG215]

I'm convinced this clown is a gimmick. There's no way he's not on Jeff's payroll. :roll:
Blocks and rebounds are actually bad. Everyone knows that.

[iggy>]

Shawn Marion should at least be on the short list.


but my top ten would be:

by position, it's too hard just doing a ten. I can narrow it to ten latter.


Center
1 Bill Russell
2 Wilt Chamberlain
3 Nate Thurmond
4 Hakeem Olajuwon
5 Dikembe Mutombo
6 Lew Alcindor
7 Bill Walton
8 Ben Wallace
9 David Robinson
10 Alonzo Mourning



Forward
1 Dennis Rodman
2 Scottie Pippen
3 Kevin Garnett
4 Tim Duncan
5 Gus Johnson
6 Dave Debusschere
7 Michael Cooper
8 Ron Artest
9 Bobby Jones
10 Maurice Lucas


Guards
1 Walt Frazier
2 Sidney Moncrief
3 Gary Payton
4 Dennis Johnson
5 Michael Jordan
6 Norm Van Lier
7 Joe Dumars
8 K.C. Jones
9 Jerry West
10 Jason Kidd
where the hell is mo cheeks????

[kennethgriffin]

Blocks and rebounds are actually bad. Everyone knows that.


rebounds are great. i'm just saying you get more when your a big man. and its totally different than offense or defense. its grabbing a basketball thats in the air. its niether stopping a guy from shooting or shooting over someone

its favored towards big men because theyre taller

so to just say someones a better defender because theyre taller and their position is beside the basket is kind of absurd


and blocks are verry usefull aswell. but its mainly a big mans game. you cant judge perimeter defense on blocks because coaches teach you not to try and block three point shooters or jump shooters because theyel bait you into the foul

contesting shots and staying infront of your defender is guard defense. and thats verry hard to measure in the box score other than the apposing team players points/fg%/turnovers

when it comes down to it you cannot compare big men to guards in terms of defense because its 2 completely different types of defense.

big men almost always win the DPOTY award because of this unfair advantage in recorded statistics and rebounding counting


when infact a guard who averages 6-7 rebounds is more impressive than a center who averages 9-10

and blocking a shot 2 times a game is not more valuable that stopping a great scorer from putting up 30 points


its actually harder to be a perimeter defender because the best scorers are guards/small forwards

[L.Kizzle]

where the hell is mo cheeks????
In the next group of guards with Alvin Robertson, Mookie Blaylock, Derek Harper, Jerry Sloan and Kobe.

[KG215]

its favored towards big men because theyre taller
And?


so to just say someones a better defender because theyre taller and their position is beside the basket is kind of absurd
:facepalm


and blocking a shot 2 times a game is not more valuable that stopping a great scorer from putting up 30 points
It's sad that you actually think the reason big men are considered better defenders is because of blocked shots.

You can't be a real person. Or, at the very least, this has to be some alternate internet persona of yours that you slip into from time to time to have some fun with morons like me who get sucked in by your stupidity.

Saying you're stupid would be a huge insult to stupid people.

[oolalaa]

rebounds are great. i'm just saying you get more when your a big man. and its totally different than offense or defense. its grabbing a basketball thats in the air. its niether stopping a guy from shooting or shooting over someone

its favored towards big men because theyre taller

so to just say someones a better defender because theyre taller and their position is beside the basket is kind of absurd


and blocks are verry usefull aswell. but its mainly a big mans game. you cant judge perimeter defense on blocks because coaches teach you not to try and block three point shooters or jump shooters because theyel bait you into the foul

contesting shots and staying infront of your defender is guard defense. and thats verry hard to measure in the box score other than the apposing team players points/fg%/turnovers

when it comes down to it you cannot compare big men to guards in terms of defense because its 2 completely different types of defense.

big men almost always win the DPOTY award because of this unfair advantage in recorded statistics and rebounding counting


when infact a guard who averages 6-7 rebounds is more impressive than a center who averages 9-10

and blocking a shot 2 times a game is not more valuable that stopping a great scorer from putting up 30 points


its actually harder to be a perimeter defender because the best scorers are guards/small forwards

What a clown :oldlol:

[DatAsh]

its favored towards big men because theyre taller


Not all things in life are fair. Height is a huge factor in why big men are usually better defenders than guards, but such is life.



when infact a guard who averages 6-7 rebounds is more impressive than a center who averages 9-10


You bring up an interesting point here. It's related to a question I've asked on here before, but for which I really didn't get a response. What helps a team more: a pg who grabs 7 rebounds a game, or a center who grabs 9 rebounds a game? Is the center even helping his team at all?

[Miller for 3]

Anyone that doesn't have David Robinson in their top 10 should be banned.

[ThaRegul8r]

Why are you so angry?

I'm not angry. If you would single me out, then apparently you don't read many threads on here.


That's your second negative post in this thread.

I haven't said anything negative, I've only stated fact. You actually acknowledged my first point, and somehow bringing attention to an overlooked NBA great is perceived as negative. Interesting. (Also interesting that you've chosen to comment on me rather than other posts in this very thread.) But that's why I rarely discuss NBA history here anymore.

It's also interesting in that my second post wasn't even in reply to anything you wrote, unlike me first post, yet you felt compelled to reply to it. The interesting question is why.


You talk as if you know everything and others know nothing.

Nice strawman. I said nothing of the sort. Other people's insecurities are none of my concern.


I'm well aware of Thurmond's incredible defensive abilities.

If you're not one of the people who's overlooked Thurmond, then what exactly is your point? You were one of the few in this thread who even mentioned him. As previously aforementioned, my second post wasn't either in reply to or directed at you, yet for some reason you felt the need to say you're aware of Thurmond's defensive abilities when you already had him on your "short list." So I'm failing to see the purpose of this statement.


I think you're the only one around here who is being disrespectful by assuming that others know less than you do.

I'm unsure why you feel so threatened or take so much offense to everything I say. Still, it's good to have where someone stands out in the open. Since my posts alone are unwelcome, if you wish me to discontinue posting in your thread, then I will oblige you. You shan't have to worry about seeing any more of my posts in any of your subjects.

[SCdac]

Any list without Duncan is wack.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2007/1029/nba_g_duncan_580.jpg

#1 in Blocks in the Playoffs. #9 in Blocks in the Regular season ... Anchored some of the best defenses of all time.

[oolalaa]

I'm not angry. If you would single me out, then apparently you don't read many threads on here.



I haven't said anything negative, I've only stated fact. You actually acknowledged my first point, and somehow bringing attention to an overlooked NBA great is perceived as negative. Interesting. (Also interesting that you've chosen to comment on me rather than other posts in this very thread.) But that's why I rarely discuss NBA history here anymore.

It's also interesting in that my second post wasn't even in reply to anything you wrote, unlike me first post, yet you felt compelled to reply to it. The interesting question is why.



Nice strawman. I said nothing of the sort. Other people's insecurities are none of my concern.



If you're not one of the people who's overlooked Thurmond, then what exactly is your point? You were one of the few in this thread who even mentioned him. As previously aforementioned, my second post wasn't either in reply to or directed at you, yet for some reason you felt the need to say you're aware of Thurmond's defensive abilities when you already had him on your "short list." So I'm failing to see the purpose of this statement.



I'm unsure why you feel so threatened or take so much offense to everything I say. Still, it's good to have where someone stands out in the open. Since my posts alone are unwelcome, if you wish me to discontinue posting in your thread, then I will oblige you. You shan't have to worry about seeing any more of my posts in any of your subjects.

Almost every single one of your posts on this board has a 'holier than thou' undertone to them. WillC isn't the only one to notice. You undoubtedly know more about the history of the NBA than the vast majority on here but your intillectual snobbery shines through like a Baboon's backside. It can be off-putting. Don't mean to gang up on you, although I have a feeling you don't care in the slightest what I think, anyway.

[WillC]

Pardon my ignorance (I don't know enough to compile a Top 10), but what is Kevin Love doing on the short list while Bryon "Jordan Stopper" Russell and Ruben "Kobe Stopper" Patterson are absent?

Honestly, I'm not quite sure how Kevin Love ended up on my shortlist.

I put the list together by just grabbing a list of players from an Excel spreadsheet that I've got with loads of players listed and their corresponding accolades. As such, the list generally features players with at least on All-Defensive Team selection. Therefore, how Kevin Love made the list I'm not sure. Well spotted.

[WillC]

I don't understand why people refuse to rank the best defenders without splitting them into different categories, and yet people are perfectly happy to rank the best players ever irrespective of position.

So what difference does it make if we're looking at just the defensive end?

[RRR3]

Kevin Love is an All-Time Great defender now? :wtf:

[WillC]

Kevin Love is an All-Time Great defender now? :wtf:

Please read two posts above yours.

[Big#50]

Duncan
Pippen
Robinson
Jordan
Hakeem
Bowen
Wallace
Dikembe
Payton
Derek Harper

[Sarcastic]

We're not gonna act like Oakley, Anthony Mason, Smith, Derek Harper, Starks didn't play for the Knicks, all good defenders, not like Zo in Miami or Deke in ATL where they basically were the defense (save Mookie and PJ Brown.)


Uh huh. That's why you put Oakley, Mason, Smith, Harper, and Starks on your list of other positions. :facepalm

[L.Kizzle]

Uh huh. That's why you put Oakley, Mason, Smith, Harper, and Starks on your list of other positions. :facepalm
I didn't just like I didn't put EWING . Ewing is next at number 11, though the bottom centers on my list could go either way.

[allball]

Walt Frazier
Michael Cooper
Don Chaney
Bill Russell
Hakeem Olajuwon
Bruce Bowen
Maurice Cheeks
Gary Payton
Scottie Pippen
Sidney Moncrief
David Robinson
Rick Fox
Kevin McHale
Kevin Garnett
Bobby Jones
Ben Wallace
Michael Ray Richardson
Michael Jordan
Pat Ewing
Tim Duncan

[allball]

Narrowing to 10:

Frazier
Hakeem
Bowen
Cooper
Wallace
Pippen
Moncrief
Robinson
Garnett
Duncan

[fpliii]

Just my opinion...

EDIT: need to reevaluate

I used ---'s to divide into tiers, though perhaps there should be an extra --- between Russell and the second group (hard to separate defensive impact from rebounding). Walton probably knocks Rodman out if he plays for a longer period of time IMO.

I'm not trying to knock perimeter players, but I really can't put guys who aren't the anchoring the paint in the top 10 (the only reason Pip/Worm make it in is because the latter captained an elite defense for six championship runs, and the latter though he wasn't an anchor was probably one of the top couple of perimeter man defenders in league history while with Detroit, and an elite post defender, possibly all-time great, later on) in his career.

[Clippersfan86]

Lol at Ben Wallace being left out by most people.

[fpliii]

Lol at Ben Wallace being left out by most people.

I actually might remove Rodman for him...

[oolalaa]

Just my opinion...

1)Russell
---
2) Thurmond
3) Wilt
4) Hakeem
---
5) Robinson
6) Duncan
7) Garnett
8) Pippen
---
9) Ewing
10) Rodman

I used ---'s to divide into tiers, though perhaps there should be an extra --- between Russell and the second group (hard to separate defensive impact from rebounding). Walton probably knocks Rodman out if he plays for a longer period of time IMO.

I'm not trying to knock perimeter players, but I really can't put guys who aren't the anchoring the paint in the top 10 (the only reason Pip/Worm make it in is because the latter captained an elite defense for six championship runs, and the latter though he wasn't an anchor was probably one of the top couple of perimeter man defenders in league history while with Detroit, and an elite post defender, possibly all-time great, later on) in his career.

Why Pippen over Ewing?

[jalbert009]

No love for Michael cooper?

5

[pauk]

These are the 10 best defenders ive seen based on 3 categories (interior, perimeter and allround/versatility)

Hakeem Olajuwon, Dikembe Mutombo and David Robinson (there is a couple of more equally good paint defenders i feel i could replace their names with) i have to include because thats the best interior defense ive seen...

Gary Payton, Michael Jordan, Ron Artest and Bruce Bowen i have to include because they are the best perimeter defenders ive seen (in their prime ofcourse), ridicilous lateral quickness, hands, anticipation, relentless... simple as that.

Scottie Pippen, Lebron James and Dennis Rodman i have to include because they are by far the most versatile defenders ive seen, sure they were not the best interior defenders or perimeter defenders (Scottie has a case on that end tho) but when you combine their perimeter/interior and any type of defense (insane versatility as a result) was there anybody better overall/allround defenders that way and was there anybody who could do the things they did defensively (like lets say, defend up to five/all positions)? Think about it.

[fpliii]

Why Pippen over Ewing?

Hmmm, upon further thought perhaps I should swap them...here are the z-scores for their teams' DRtgs (relative to the league each season):

Pippen:

87-88: -1.0
88-89: -0.9
89-90: +0.3
90-91: -1.0
91-92: -1.5
92-93: -0.7
93-94: -1.0
94-95: -1.4
95-96: -1.9
97-97: -1.2
97-98: -1.4
98-99: +0.2
99-00: -1.0
00-01: -0.4
01-02: -0.2
02-03: -0.4
03-04: +0.6

Ewing:

85-86: -0.7
86-87: +1.1
87-88: -0.6
88-89: -0.1
89-90: -0.0
90-91: -0.2
91-92: -1.6
92-93: -2.9
93-94: -2.3
94-95: -1.6
95-96: -1.3
96-97: -1.5
97-98: -1.3
98-99: -1.2
99-00: -1.0
00-01: +0.9
01-02: +0.3

offhand I figured the difference was a lot closer, and planned to give it to Pip on the basis of versatility, but I think I need to switch them on my list. The only question is whether I need to bump Pippen down a tier (joining Rodman), or whether he can remain there.

[Smoke117]

Anyone that doesn't have David Robinson in their top 10 should be banned.

No shit. I saw Mutombo at 5th on someone's list and they even had honorable mentions and Robinson was nowhere to be seen. David Robinson shits all over Mutombo as a defensive player. It isn't even relatively close.

[DatAsh]

Hmmm, upon further thought perhaps I should swap them...here are the z-scores for their teams' DRtgs (relative to the league each season):

Pippen:

87-88: -1.0
88-89: -0.9
89-90: +0.3
90-91: -1.0
91-92: -1.5
92-93: -0.7
93-94: -1.0
94-95: -1.4
95-96: -1.9
97-97: -1.2
97-98: -1.4
98-99: +0.2
99-00: -1.0
00-01: -0.4
01-02: -0.2
02-03: -0.4
03-04: +0.6

Ewing:

85-86: -0.7
86-87: +1.1
87-88: -0.6
88-89: -0.1
89-90: -0.0
90-91: -0.2
91-92: -1.6
92-93: -2.9
93-94: -2.3
94-95: -1.6
95-96: -1.3
96-97: -1.5
97-98: -1.3
98-99: -1.2
99-00: -1.0
00-01: +0.9
01-02: +0.3

offhand I figured the difference was a lot closer, and planned to give it to Pip on the basis of versatility, but I think I need to switch them on my list. The only question is whether I need to bump Pippen down a tier (joining Rodman), or whether he can remain there.


88-92' probably had more to do with Jordan's defense than it did Pippen's - especially 88'. He was the defensive floor general and the team's best defender up until that point. 94' and 95' are arguably the two most impressive defensive seasons by a perimeter player ever though.

We also need to take into account the help that each player had. Pippen certainly had a lot of help early on with Jordan/Grant, and then later on with Jordan/Rodman/Harper, but Ewing probably still had the better end of that deal. Some of those Knicks teams had solid to great defenders at virtually every position.

[fpliii]

88-92' probably had more to do with Jordan's defense than it did Pippen's - especially 88'. He was the defensive floor general and the team's best defender up until that point. 94' and 95' are arguably the two most impressive defensive seasons by a perimeter player ever though.

Agreed on all counts.

We also need to take into account the help that each player had. Pippen certainly had a lot of help early on with Jordan/Grant, and then later on with Jordan/Rodman/Harper, but Ewing probably still had the better end of that deal. Some of those Knicks teams had solid to great defenders at virtually every position.

Also true.

So given my criteria then, perhaps I should bump him down into the final tier. I also need to reevaluate Ben Wallace's impact, and decide what to do about Rodman.

BTW what are your thoughts on Kareem/Walton?

[Money 23]

That I've seen since 1990:

Jordan
Pippen
Payton
Garnett
Hakeem
Rodman
Dumars
Duncan
Mutombo
D Robinson

[TheCorporation]

1. Hakeem Olajuwon
2. Scottie Pippen
3. Dennis Rodman
4. Kevin Garnett
5. LeBron James
6. Tim Duncan
7. Ben Wallace
8. David Robinson
9. Dwight Howard
10. Michael Jordan

(Not in order)

[Micku]

I don't understand why people refuse to rank the best defenders without splitting them into different categories, and yet people are perfectly happy to rank the best players ever irrespective of position.

So what difference does it make if we're looking at just the defensive end?

That's a good question.

I think it just depends on the player.

Players like Magic Johnson and Larry Bird impact the offense very differently than Michael Jordan, Kobe, Iverson and Lebron. And Shaq, Kareem, Wilt, Hakeem, and Ewing impact the game differently than those guys too.

It's something that does not get talked about much. My guess is that defense is easier to separate than offense. Offense is more how many points can you score and defense is easier to see the different valuables in how it impacts the game.

[Odinn]

At their best days(ordered by alphabetically);
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Tim Duncan
Patrick Ewing
Dikembe Mutombo
Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Dennis Rodman
Bill Russell
Nate Thurmond
Ben Wallace
Bill Walton

The closest guard to make an impact of big man; Walt Frazier.

[Doranku]

:roll: @ multiple people picking LeBron when he was a defensive liability for the first half of his career.

This forum sucks.

[funnystuff]

:roll: @ multiple people picking LeBron when he was a defensive liability for the first half of his career.

This forum sucks.
:biggums:

[selrahc]

Kobe is top 10

[LA Lakers]

Bigs: Rodman, Dream, Admiral, Duncan

Perimeter: Coop, Payton, Pippen

[Money 23]

:roll: @ multiple people picking LeBron when he was a defensive liability for the first half of his career.
Totally agree.

He was "meh" until the 2008 Olympics, and the following 2009 season.

He's a versatile defender, but his actual "lock down" man defense skills are horrendously overrated. Specifically since 2011.



Perimeter: Coop, Payton, Pippen
No Jordan? LOL ... right.

[LA Lakers]

Nah, Definitely MJ too. oops

[LA Lakers]

Everyone forgetting about Dennis Johnson as well Michael Cooper

[DatAsh]

So given my criteria then, perhaps I should bump him down into the final tier. I also need to reevaluate Ben Wallace's impact, and decide what to do about Rodman.

BTW what are your thoughts on Kareem/Walton?

I haven't entirely made up my mind on the Kareem/Walton debate. Walton sweeping Kareem doesn't mean as much to me as it seems to mean to others. Walton had the better team, and by a substantial margin. When you pile the Laker injuries on top of that, the sweep isn't all that surprising. I do think Walton was the slightly better player, but it's like splitting hairs to me.

As for their defense: both were excellent, Walton was slightly better, but not by much. I'm not sure I'd have either in my top 10. Walton would be there with better longevity, but top 10's always come with such stiff competition.

[Whoah10115]

What I hate about these lists is that it will be flooded with big men, just because they're big. And that means I'm gonna see Kareem and even Shaq on lists, which is where the problem lies.

Tho I will say, making a list of the best defenders is not like making an all-time list, where you factor in the full career. A list like this has room for "He's the best I ever saw" and the like.

I don't know that I'd truly try to rank, so...

Russell, Hakeem, Robinson, Walton, Howard, Wilt, Thurmond, Garnett, Pippen, Jordan.


I think that's my 10.

[NumberSix]

Jason Terry

[fpliii]

What I hate about these lists is that it will be flooded with big men, just because they're big. And that means I'm gonna see Kareem and even Shaq on lists...and that's atrocious.

Russell, Hakeem, Robinson, Walton, Howard, Wilt, Thurmond, Garnett, Pippen, Jordan.


I think that's my 10.

That's not a bad list (I'm not sure what my order would be, but there's a very good chance those ten comprise a good deal of the ten most impactful; from my understanding Thurmond should be ahead of Wilt, possibly second overall). I think I'd sub in either Duncan, Ewing, or Wallace for Jordan (where do you have those three, btw?) but it's not a deal breaker.

[Whoah10115]

That's not a bad list (I'm not sure what my order would be, but there's a very good chance those ten comprise a good deal of the ten most impactful; from my understanding Thurmond should be ahead of Wilt, possibly second overall). I think I'd sub in either Duncan, Ewing, or Wallace for Jordan (where do you have those three, btw?) but it's not a deal breaker.



Not sure...I think Oakley is forgotten about. He was usually considered a top 5 defender in the game, tho he has only two All-Defensive selections (one 1st Team) to show for it. Wallace is the best defender of those 3. I think Ewing is abetter defender than Duncan. He was a better shot-blocker and he really deterred guys from driving to the lane. He guarded that rim so well, guarded the post so well, was such a smart help defender (like Duncan). He was physically limited after 1992 but he was still elite. Prior to that he was so much better.

They may be in the top 15 but there could be guys I'm forgetting. I've seen enough of Moncrief to know he's great but maybe not enough to rank him. I'd have to include Dennis Rodman. I think Gary Payton deserves placement. And, I forgot, Mutombo was better than the 3 you listed...at least for me he was.

[fpliii]

Not sure...I think Oakley is forgotten about. He was usually considered a top 5 defender in the game, tho he has only two All-Defensive selections (one 1st Team) to show for it. Wallace is the best defender of those 3. I think Ewing is abetter defender than Duncan. He was a better shot-blocker and he really deterred guys from driving to the lane. He guarded that rim so well, guarded the post so well, was such a smart help defender (like Duncan). He was physically limited after 1992 but he was still elite. Prior to that he was so much better.

They may be in the top 15 but there could be guys I'm forgetting. I've seen enough of Moncrief to know he's great but maybe not enough to rank him. I'd have to include Dennis Rodman. I think Gary Payton deserves placement. And, I forgot, Mutombo was better than the 3 you listed...at least for me he was.

Hm I think we differ on Deke (we'll have to agree to disagree, since from the last thread we were both firmly entrenched in our stances), but I agree about everything else.

Let me also throw Bobby Jones' name out there.

[The_Yearning]

Duncan
KG
Pippen
Bowen
Payton

Ain't nobody scoring on this team.

[cltcfn2924]

Shawn Marion should at least be on the short list.


but my top ten would be:

by position, it's too hard just doing a ten. I can narrow it to ten latter.


Center
1 Bill Russell
2 Wilt Chamberlain
3 Nate Thurmond
4 Hakeem Olajuwon
5 Dikembe Mutombo
6 Lew Alcindor
7 Bill Walton
8 Ben Wallace
9 David Robinson
10 Alonzo Mourning



Forward
1 Dennis Rodman
2 Scottie Pippen
3 Kevin Garnett
4 Tim Duncan
5 Gus Johnson
6 Dave Debusschere
7 Michael Cooper
8 Ron Artest
9 Bobby Jones
10 Maurice Lucas


Guards
1 Walt Frazier
2 Sidney Moncrief
3 Gary Payton
4 Dennis Johnson
5 Michael Jordan
6 Norm Van Lier
7 Joe Dumars
8 K.C. Jones
9 Jerry West
10 Jason Kidd


You can't possibly leave McHale off your forward list.

[Whoah10115]

Didn't see this post.


Hm I think we differ on Deke (we'll have to agree to disagree, since from the last thread we were both firmly entrenched in our stances), but I agree about everything else.

Let me also throw Bobby Jones' name out there.


I don't remember having a discussion Mutombo...what were you feelings there?

Bobby Jones is a good addition...as is Kevin McHale...in fact, remembering him is gonna make this tough on me.

I forgot Alonzo. I think he's also better than any of those 3. I saw someone put Kareem on the list, but listed him as Lew Alcindor. I don't know if he was implying anything, but that would be one way I could consider Kareem for the list...tho I still wouldn't put him in the top 20.

[Whoah10115]

Pat Ewing anchored one of the top defenses of all time, and no one has him on their list. You are all just haters or just dumb. Which is it?

Mourning ahead of Pat :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Walton ahead of Pat :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


In a list more specific than a GOAT list, leeway is given for actual games played...to a point. I think Walton does enough to qualify and it's legitimate to suggest he's the best defender to play, after Bill Russell. Thurmond and Wilt would be up for discussion and I think Hakeem and Robinson are clearly ahead of them both. And while people won't acknowledge it, Dwight Howard deserves a ton of mention. He's as good as I've seen since I've been watching.


When he was healthy Walton was better than Pat. Alonzo and Dikembe are closer. I have too much of a memory of post 92 Ewing, who was all-time but not nearly as good a defender as he was before. I think Alonzo could very well be in front of him. Tho I would take Ewing over Duncan.

[pauk]

10 best defensive bigs i have seen (PF/C):

Hakeem Olajuwon (He is my #1, the rest is in no order)
Dennis Rodman
Dikembe Mutombo
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
David Robinson
Alonzo Mourning
Kevin Garnett
Ben Wallace
Dwight Howard
Tim Duncan

10 best defensive perimeter guys i have seen (PG/SG/SF):

Scottie Pippen (He is my #1, the rest is in no order)
Bobby Jones
Sidney Moncrief
Lebron James
Gary Payton
Dennis Johnson
Michael Jordan
Joe Dumars
Michael Cooper
Ron Artest

PS: Shame on you for disregarding Lebron, he is as versatile of a defender as anybody was in NBA history, infact only one guy was that versatile defensively and his name was Scottie Pippen...

[dh144498]

10 best defensive bigs i have seen (PF/C):

Hakeem Olajuwon (He is my #1, the rest is in no order)
Dennis Rodman
Dikembe Mutombo
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
David Robinson
Alonzo Mourning
Kevin Garnett
Ben Wallace
Dwight Howard
Tim Duncan

10 best defensive perimeter guys i have seen (PG/SG/SF):

Scottie Pippen (He is my #1, the rest is in no order)
Bobby Jones
Sidney Moncrief
Lebron James
Gary Payton
Dennis Johnson
Michael Jordan
Joe Dumars
Michael Cooper
Ron Artest


:roll: :lol :oldlol:

[pauk]

:roll: :lol :oldlol:

Lebron is a soon 7 x 1st all-defensive team player who was a runner-up for defensive player of the year and in talks for that award ever since, a guy who last year had the most 1st all-defensive team votes (even more than the guy who won the DPOY that year).... a guy who defends PG-SG-SF-PF-C like nobody else could, his defensive versatility can only be matched by Scottie Pippen in NBA history...... speaking of Pippen, he said that Lebron is the best defensive player in the NBA.... im sure what is the best defensive perimeter guy i ever seen knows slightly what he is talking about better than at least you?

No, the only one that needs to be laughed at is yourself dh11414444343439434989849888

[10x91= 5 Rings]

Lebron is a soon 7 x 1st all-defensive team player who was a runner-up for defensive player of the year and in talks for that award ever since, a guy who last year had the most 1st all-defensive team votes (even more than the guy who won the DPOY that year).... a guy who defends PG-SG-SF-PF-C like nobody else could, his defensive versatility can only be matched by Scottie Pippen in NBA history...... speaking of Pippen, he said that Lebron is the best defensive player in the NBA.... im sure what is the best defensive perimeter guy i ever seen knows slightly what he is talking about better than at least you?

No, the only one that needs to be laughed at is yourself dh11414444343439434989849888

:lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOMKqwsEm8g

never forget,baby

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0WVneiYHjM

[HPye7]

pip rodman and jordan have to be serious candidates

[pauk]

:lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOMKqwsEm8g

never forget,baby

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0WVneiYHjM

Rodman didnt & couldnt guard PGs/SGs.... especially not shut down speedy gonzaleses like Derrick Rose... Pippen & Lebron could...

My point is simply that i think its not ludicrous to mention Lebron when talking about the best perimeter playing defenders of all time, Lebron isnt/wasnt the best guy to defend the perimeter nor the best guy to defend the interior, he isnt the best guy to defend strictly PGs or SGs or SFs or PFs or Cs..... but he can do what neither of those guys could, which is to defend them ALL, any player..... its the overall/allround defense in its entirety, the versatility, being able to defend almost all positions/players (except for the likes of Shaq) which makes him a great overall defender and one of the greatest overall/allround defenders of all time... because of this it makes Lebron probably the greatest team / help defender you can have today, he can ballhawk and help cover any man on the floor, interior or perimeter or hunt down any speed demon in the open court and he has great IQ/leadership (extremly vocal) on the defensive end....

[DatAsh]

Rodman didnt & couldnt guard PGs/SGs.... especially not shut down speedy gonzaleses like Derrick Rose... Pippen & Lebron could...


:facepalm

Maybe that's the case with 90's Rodamn, but 80's Rodman was every bit - and then some - the perimeter defender that Lebron is. Rodman is easily the most versatile defender I've seen in my lifetime, and I say that with very little hesitation.

[10x91= 5 Rings]

Rodman didnt & couldnt guard PGs/SGs.... especially not shut down speedy gonzaleses like Derrick Rose... Pippen could...

You must be a little kid . You didn`t see Rodman with the Bad Boys. He could make every players life miserable. And he would make even your favorite player`s life miserable. No matter if he is a pg,sg or c.

Here is just a little new york times article i found from 1990.

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/05/08/sports/rodman-is-the-key-to-piston-defense.html



Rodman will inevitably be a pivotal player in the four-of-seven-game Eastern Conference playoff series between the Pistons and the Knicks, which begins here Tuesday night. On a team that prides itself on defense, Rodman is the master. Standing 6 feet 8 inches tall, with a wiry but deceptively strong 210-pound build, Rodman has the lateral movement to defend quick players, the strength to defend physical players and the leaping ability to defend taller players. He is also one of the league's most tenacious rebounders, a player capable of grabbing 20 or more rebounds in a game....

Don`t make me embarrass you,son.

[DatAsh]

What I hate about these lists is that it will be flooded with big men, just because they're big. And that means I'm gonna see Kareem and even Shaq on lists, which is where the problem lies.


I don't really see the problem with that. Big men are almost always your most impactful defensive players, just like guards are almost always your most impactful offensive players.

My list of "top" offensive players would be mostly guards and forwards

Magic, Bird, Jordan, Oscar, Lebron, Nash, ect.

[rmt]

I don't really see the problem with that. Big men are almost always your most impactful defensive players, just like guards are almost always your most impactful offensive players.

My list of "top" offensive players would be mostly guards and forwards

Magic, Bird, Jordan, Oscar, Lebron, Nash, ect.

Have you conveniently forgotten KAJ, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan? If not, then you should probably qualify your statement with "in (very) recent years."

[DatAsh]

Have you conveniently forgotten KAJ, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan? If not, then you should probably qualify your statement with "in (very) recent years."

I have not.

Based on heavy statistical research into this exact subject, Shaq is the only player from that list that's in the same category as the guys I mentioned, and he'd be at the bottom of that pack.

[Djahjaga]

rebounds are great. i'm just saying you get more when your a big man. and its totally different than offense or defense. its grabbing a basketball thats in the air. its niether stopping a guy from shooting or shooting over someone

its favored towards big men because theyre taller

so to just say someones a better defender because theyre taller and their position is beside the basket is kind of absurd


and blocks are verry usefull aswell. but its mainly a big mans game. you cant judge perimeter defense on blocks because coaches teach you not to try and block three point shooters or jump shooters because theyel bait you into the foul

contesting shots and staying infront of your defender is guard defense. and thats verry hard to measure in the box score other than the apposing team players points/fg%/turnovers

when it comes down to it you cannot compare big men to guards in terms of defense because its 2 completely different types of defense.

big men almost always win the DPOTY award because of this unfair advantage in recorded statistics and rebounding counting


when infact a guard who averages 6-7 rebounds is more impressive than a center who averages 9-10

and blocking a shot 2 times a game is not more valuable that stopping a great scorer from putting up 30 points


its actually harder to be a perimeter defender because the best scorers are guards/small forwards

It's not about what's more impressive. It never has been. This is something you clearly don't get.

If you have two players, one who averages 10 rebounds and one who averages 7, the first player has more of an impact on the boards, regardless of anything else. It's more impressive when Rondo averages 5.6 boards than when Lopez averages 7, but Lopez has more of an impact on the boards.

This goes for all areas of basketball. A 20-foot fadeaway is WAY more impressive than a layup 3 point play, but the layup is more effective.

Yeah, big men have an unfair advantage when it comes to DPOY awards and defensive all-time rankings, but that doesn't mean we have to adjust by putting players up there who don't have as big of an impact simply because "it's more impressive" what they do with less.

Even in today's NBA, a dominant defensive big can impact the game more than a perimeter defender. You can isolate the great perimeter defender on the weakside and keep him out of the play, but any path to an easy shot in the paint has to go through a your dominant defensive big (assuming you have one).

Edit: Didn't see that someone had brought this up.


You bring up an interesting point here. It's related to a question I've asked on here before, but for which I really didn't get a response. What helps a team more: a pg who grabs 7 rebounds a game, or a center who grabs 9 rebounds a game? Is the center even helping his team at all?

I think it's clearly the center, ceteris parabis.

[TheBigVeto]

How the hell is Kobe nominated. His defense is the worst among those listed.

[DatAsh]

It's not about what's more impressive. It never has been. This is something you clearly don't get.

If you have two players, one who averages 10 rebounds and one who averages 7, the first player has more of an impact on the boards, regardless of anything else. It's more impressive when Rondo averages 5.6 boards than when Lopez averages 7, but Lopez has more of an impact on the boards.

This goes for all areas of basketball. A 20-foot fadeaway is WAY more impressive than a layup 3 point play, but the layup is more effective.

Yeah, big men have an unfair advantage when it comes to DPOY awards and defensive all-time rankings, but that doesn't mean we have to adjust by putting players up there who don't have as big of an impact simply because "it's more impressive" what they do with less.

Even in today's NBA, a dominant defensive big can impact the game more than a perimeter defender. You can isolate the great perimeter defender on the weakside and keep him out of the play, but any path to an easy shot in the paint has to go through a your dominant defensive big (assuming you have one).

Edit: Didn't see that someone had brought this up.



I think it's clearly the center, ceteris parabis.

So a center that makes the average team worse at rebounding is better than a guard who improve's the average team's rebounding?

Is the purpose of a great rebounder to put up good stats or is it to help his team?

[fpliii]

Didn't see this post.




I don't remember having a discussion Mutombo...what were you feelings there?

Bobby Jones is a good addition...as is Kevin McHale...in fact, remembering him is gonna make this tough on me.

I forgot Alonzo. I think he's also better than any of those 3. I saw someone put Kareem on the list, but listed him as Lew Alcindor. I don't know if he was implying anything, but that would be one way I could consider Kareem for the list...tho I still wouldn't put him in the top 20.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=283177

McHale was great.

I think Zo has a solid case for a top 10 spot as well. Kareem 70-74 from what I understand was great defensively, but as I said in the Magic thread 75-78 seems to have been subpar.

[DatAsh]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=283177

McHale was great.

I think Zo has a solid case for a top 10 spot as well. Kareem 70-74 from what I understand was great defensively, but as I said in the Magic thread 75-78 seems to have been subpar.

77' Kareem was a very good defender.

[Whoah10115]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=283177

McHale was great.

I think Zo has a solid case for a top 10 spot as well. Kareem 70-74 from what I understand was great defensively, but as I said in the Magic thread 75-78 seems to have been subpar.



Oh that was you who created that thread :oldlol:


I wonder if there is an argument to be made for evaluating Kareem, the Alcindor days.

[fpliii]

77' Kareem was a very good defender.

I think so, but based on what I've seen/read about his time in Milwaukee (through the 74 Finals) he was much more of a dominant presence.


Oh that was you who created that thread :oldlol:


I wonder if there is an argument to be made for evaluating Kareem, the Alcindor days.

:cheers:

[Djahjaga]

So a center that makes the average team worse at rebounding is better than a guard who improve's the average team's rebounding?

Is the purpose of a great rebounder to put up good stats or is it to help his team?

Having an above average rebounding PG is only worth it if you have at least average rebounding at every other position. The problem is, having a great rebounding PG doesn't say anything about the rebounding of the rest of the players on your team. You can have the best rebounding PG of all time, but if you have anemic rebounders at every other position, it won't make you a good rebounding team.

Good rebounding guards are such a commodity because even average rebounding bigs can be relied upon to grab like 7 boards, so this offers you a huge advantage, assuming you can get average rebounding bigs. You're definitely right on this point. Practically, you would want someone like Rondo over a 7-boards-per-game big because you can just sign an average center to grab 7 boards, but you won't find a guard like Rondo on the waiver wire.

But that's not the argument we're having. We're asking, is a below average rebounding big more impactful on the boards than an above average rebounding small?

If you make no other assumptions about the rest of the team, the big is more impactful on the boards.

Yeah, sure, maybe Rondo has more talent for boarding than Lopez does, and the only reason Brook gets more boards is because he's a foot taller, but the fact remains that he gets more boards. It doesn't matter why. You said it well in your other post, "such is life."




Anyway, the original point stemmed from Kennethgriffin's continuous "this is more impressive, so it's better" argument. Bigs are almost always more impactful on D than smalls. Yes, they have a huge, unfair advantage. Yes, I'm frankly way more impressed when someone like MJ or GP or Bowen can dominate a game defensively than when Roy Hibbert or even Mutombo do it. But that doesn't make them better defenders than the bigs (though, I'm not sure MJ and GP aren't better than Hibbert lol I'm just saying, more impressive doesn't necessarily mean better/more impactful).

[dh144498]

Lebron is a soon 7 x 1st all-defensive team player who was a runner-up for defensive player of the year and in talks for that award ever since, a guy who last year had the most 1st all-defensive team votes (even more than the guy who won the DPOY that year).... a guy who defends PG-SG-SF-PF-C like nobody else could, his defensive versatility can only be matched by Scottie Pippen in NBA history...... speaking of Pippen, he said that Lebron is the best defensive player in the NBA.... im sure what is the best defensive perimeter guy i ever seen knows slightly what he is talking about better than at least you?

No, the only one that needs to be laughed at is yourself dh11414444343439434989849888

why you neg me? :(
I'm only simply stating something that is potentially laughable, his defense is slightly overrated. especially that part about him defending every position...

[riseagainst]

why you neg me? :(
I'm only simply stating something that is potentially laughable, his defense is slightly overrated. especially that part about him defending every position...

negged.

[Rocketswin2013]

I'm skipping Wilt and Russell so I can give more players shine for once.
1. Olajuwon
2. David Robinson
3. Gary Payton
4. Scottie Pippen
5. Tim Duncan
6. Patrick Ewing
7. Ben Wallace
8. Dennis Rodman
9. Michael Jordan
10. Dikembe Mutumbo

HM: Dwight Howard, Prime Kobe, Mark Eaton, Metta World Peace, Kevin Garnett, S. Moncrief, McHale, Prime Shaq,Kareem, Bruce Bowen, Marcus Camby.

[feyki]

1 - Bill Russell
2 - Ben Wallace
3 - Nate Thurmond
4 - Hakeem Olajuwon
5 - Tim Duncan
6 - Bill Walton
7 - Wilt Chamberlain
8 - David Robinson
9 - Dwight Howard
10 - Patrick Ewing

[ImKobe]

Kobe

[HoopSuperstar]

Dennis Rodman. Not to many nba players took on the challenge on guarding Shaq and having success add it. Playing defense for almost all 48min.

[wally_world]

1. Bill Russell
2. Dennis Rodman
3. Hakeem Olajuwon
4. Gary Payton
5. Ben Wallace
6. Kevin Garnett
7. Tim Duncan
8. Mookie Blaylock
9. Bill Walton
10. Scottie Pippen

next in line:
Kawhi Leonard
Kareem Abdul Jabbar

I think perimeter defense is greatly underrated. It's easy for big guys to send shots back and tower over people, how GP and Blaylock lock down and hound ball-handlers are the best i've seen, so special mention to them.

wtf is Moses doing on that list?

[feyki]

1. Bill Russell
2. Dennis Rodman
3. Hakeem Olajuwon
4. Gary Payton
5. Ben Wallace
6. Kevin Garnett
7. Tim Duncan
8. Mookie Blaylock
9. Bill Walton
10. Scottie Pippen

next in line:
Kawhi Leonard
Kareem Abdul Jabbar

I think perimeter defense is greatly underrated. It's easy for big guys to send shots back and tower over people, how GP and Blaylock lock down and hound ball-handlers are the best i've seen, so special mention to them.

wtf is Moses doing on that list?

Your point like thinking Centers underrated on passing/playmaking . It's nature of the game , bigs always has more impact on defensive side . Rim protection is main reason of that .

[wally_world]

Your point like thinking Centers underrated on passing/playmaking . It's nature of the game , bigs always has more impact on defensive side . Rim protection is main reason of that .

They do have bigger impact on the defensive end, but that doesn't mean they're the better defender ;) which is why i have a few guards/wings in there

[feyki]

They do have bigger impact on the defensive end, but that doesn't mean they're the better defender ;) which is why i have a few guards/wings in there

I agree with that . Gary Payton,Pippen,Rodman were one of the greatest man to man defenders .

:cheers:

[colts19]

Shawn Marion should at least be on the short list.


but my top ten would be:

by position, it's too hard just doing a ten. I can narrow it to ten latter.


Center
1 Bill Russell
2 Wilt Chamberlain
3 Nate Thurmond
4 Hakeem Olajuwon
5 Dikembe Mutombo
6 Lew Alcindor
7 Bill Walton
8 Ben Wallace
9 David Robinson
10 Alonzo Mourning



Forward
1 Dennis Rodman
2 Scottie Pippen
3 Kevin Garnett
4 Tim Duncan
5 Gus Johnson
6 Dave Debusschere
7 Michael Cooper
8 Ron Artest
9 Bobby Jones
10 Maurice Lucas


Guards
1 Walt Frazier
2 Sidney Moncrief
3 Gary Payton
4 Dennis Johnson
5 Michael Jordan
6 Norm Van Lier
7 Joe Dumars
8 K.C. Jones
9 Jerry West
10 Jason Kidd

This is a really good list. I would put the Big O on ahead of Jason Kidd.