How great was peak Yao Ming?

[iamgine]

Well if you could pick him in a draft of all peak centers...no injury involved

Maybe not ahead of the Shaqs and Olajuwons but how about ahead the likes of...Alonzo Mourning or Dwight Howard. Does that sound about right?

[Bigsmoke]

that was only a few season ago.

u can't remember?

[Y2Gezee]

He was never Great, but became a very reliable scorer, with decent rebounding, and obviously could defend the rim. But I'd pick him behind all of those guys.

[Whoah10115]

Yao was not better than Dwight.


Was Yao ever a top 5 player in the league? Well how about Dwight?



Mourning was also better. But Yao was a great player. Great passer who knew how to pass and play. He had legit skill.

[AlphaWolf24]

A 3 year stretch of 23PPG 10REB and 2BLKS....:confusedshrug:

If Shaq's 3 year stretch of 28PPG 12REB and 2BLKS is considered the most Dominant ever...the Yao Ming's is pretty darn great also...
I would def take him over Mourning or Mutumbo.....not sure why but those get severly overratted here.

[ripthekik]

Yao at one season was MVP like, until he went down with an injury. Without injuries, I'd take him above Zo.

Dwight, it's hard to say. Yao always got the best of Dwight if I remembered. Dwight brings a better defensive and rebounding presence though. Yao's offense improved year after year, and he is very reliable with his FT. I think they're very close, you can't go wrong with either one.

[DuMa]

He used to dominate Dwight like he was his bitch.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=mingya01&p2=howardw01

[dgaras]

great. better than dwight will ever be but people have bad memories and tend to like the flashier players.

i think the old school minded fans appreciate yao. he might not have blocked as many shots or rebounded as well as dwight but his intimidating presence was as good or greater than dwight's.

[Whoah10115]

great. better than dwight will ever be but people have bad memories and tend to like the flashier players.

i think the old school minded fans appreciate yao. he might not have blocked as many shots or rebounded as well as dwight but his intimidating presence was as good or greater than dwight's.




You're insane. He was never as good as Dwight was 4 years ago.



Flashy players? Dwight Howard is the best defensive player in basketball. Get outta here with that shit lol.

[ChuckOakley]

Yao at one season was MVP like, until he went down with an injury. Without injuries, I'd take him above Zo.

Dwight, it's hard to say. Yao always got the best of Dwight if I remembered. Dwight brings a better defensive and rebounding presence though. Yao's offense improved year after year, and he is very reliable with his FT. I think they're very close, you can't go wrong with either one.
Why are you comparing the head to head of a veteran in his prime, to a very young and inexperienced Dwight?

And this healthy/injury free thing is nonsense.

Yao was as good as he was because of his height. However his body couldn't hold up over the course of a season. The only way he would have held up over the course of 82 games and the playoffs was if he had a smaller body, in which case you don't have the same player.

If you want to magically add extra strength, endurance and durability he never had, can we add extra skills and components to the players we are comparing him to? It's like saying what if Dwight was 6 inches taller or shot 40% from the arc.... makes no sense.

Yao was who he was and should be judged up on that, not what if he had extra abilities he didn't.

[Bigsmoke]

You're insane. He was never as good as Dwight was 4 years ago.


Flashy players? Dwight Howard is the best defensive player in basketball. Get outta here with that shit lol.

4 years ago?

Yao was always better than Dwight when he was healthy

[Bigsmoke]

Why are you comparing the head to head of a veteran in his prime, to a very young and inexperienced Dwight?

And this healthy/injury free thing is nonsense.

Yao was as good as he was because of his height. However his body couldn't hold up over the course of a season. The only way he would have held up over the course of 82 games and the playoffs was if he had a smaller body, in which case you don't have the same player.

If you want to magically add extra strength, endurance and durability he never had, can we add extra skills and components to the players we are comparing him to? It's like saying what if Dwight was 6 inches taller or shot 40% from the arc.... makes no sense.

Yao was who he was and should be judged up on that, not what if he had extra abilities he didn't.

Yao Ming was mad talented as well.

you didnt see Gheorghe Muresan do the shit Yao Ming did.

[alwaysunny]

Dwight was better individually, but Yao always got the better of him. At his peak I think he was good enough to be considered a superstar. He was a lot more talented than people give credit for.

[ChuckOakley]

Yao Ming was mad talented as well.

you didnt see Gheorghe Muresan do the shit Yao Ming did.
I never said he wasn't.
But he was as dominant as he was because of his height. If he was "only" 7 foot, he would have been a good center but more like Brook Lopez as in not a good rebounder or defender, but very good offensively.

[AlphaWolf24]

I never said he wasn't.
But he was as dominant as he was because of his height. If he was "only" 7 foot, he would have been a good center but more like Brook Lopez as in not a good rebounder or defender, but very good offensively.


WTF?....Yao was a very skilled big man..he could turn and shoot over both shoulders , he had great Footwork....and he was able to be a consistent FT shooter..

in fact it was skill that made him be so great...if he had no skill he would just be a Muresan or Bol....

Lopez does not have the skillset Ming had...

[ChuckOakley]

WTF?....Yao was a very skilled big man..he could turn and shoot over both shoulders , he had great Footwork....and he was able to be a consistent FT shooter..

in fact it was skill that made him be so great...if he had no skill he would just be a Muresan or Bol....

Lopez does not have the skillset Ming had...
Was the closest comparison I could think of. Don't forget Lopez has been a 20ppg scorer and shot 80% from the line. Both have finesse games and are not that very good rebounders. Yao the better defender, mainly because of his height. Ilguaskas, Smits are some others that come to mind.

Anyway my point was simply this.. Yao only would have been durable with a more "normal" sized body say 7 foot for a center. However, he would not have been nearly as dominant.

[ripthekik]

Why are you comparing the head to head of a veteran in his prime, to a very young and inexperienced Dwight?

And this healthy/injury free thing is nonsense.

Yao was as good as he was because of his height. However his body couldn't hold up over the course of a season. The only way he would have held up over the course of 82 games and the playoffs was if he had a smaller body, in which case you don't have the same player.

If you want to magically add extra strength, endurance and durability he never had, can we add extra skills and components to the players we are comparing him to? It's like saying what if Dwight was 6 inches taller or shot 40% from the arc.... makes no sense.

Yao was who he was and should be judged up on that, not what if he had extra abilities he didn't.
:facepalm Read the OP, he asked who you'd take if they were injury free.

And you're really underrating Yao. When they were both in the league, Yao definitely had the edge, although they were really close. Like I said, you can't go wrong with both.

And Yao is not just some tall guy. You've obviously never watched him, and don't know much about the NBA. He plays not with power but with skill- his footwork, shooting is better than 80% of the league, his fakes, etc.

We never really saw his prime. He was becoming MVP like, avging something like 25 points, 10+ rebounds etc but injuries took him out. Sad day for me when he retired.:(

[Bigsmoke]

Was the closest comparison I could think of. Don't forget Lopez has been a 20ppg scorer and shot 80% from the line. Both have finesse games and are not that very good rebounders. Yao the better defender, mainly because of his height. Ilguaskas, Smits are some others that come to mind.

Anyway my point was simply this.. Yao only would have been durable with a more "normal" sized body say 7 foot for a center. However, he would not have been nearly as dominant.

we can say that about many players.

would Shaq be dominate if he wasn't 7'1 325?

I can see Yao Ming being as good as he was as 6'11 to be honest. Maybe even better because he might have more speed. His rebounding and shot blocking numbers might not be as high tho

[ChuckOakley]

:facepalm Read the OP, he asked who you'd take if they were injury free.

And you're really underrating Yao. When they were both in the league, Yao definitely had the edge, although they were really close. Like I said, you can't go wrong with both.

And Yao is not just some tall guy. You've obviously never watched him, and don't know much about the NBA. He plays not with power but with skill- his footwork, shooting is better than 80% of the league, his fakes, etc.

We never really saw his prime. He was becoming MVP like, avging something like 25 points, 10+ rebounds etc but injuries took him out. Sad day for me when he retired.:(
I did read the OP and saw plenty of Yao.. how could you not.

Again of course a season vet like Yao in his "prime" would outperform a young and raw Dwight Howard. Dwight is 5x the player he was then.

And apparently you didn't read my post.

It's not a matter of being injury free, it was a matter of his being more proportionality sized, stronger, more durable. His size made him as good as he was but his body also limited how long he could last of the course of a season.

You had to take the good with the bad with Yao. To imply he would have held up over 82 games and the playoffs would imply he had a different sized body or strengh/durability he never had. So again, can we give Dwight Howard 6 more inches, or the ability to shoot 3s at 40%?


This is why Yao threads are ridiculous. Always based upon what ifs that didn't happened nor could they have. How about we judge the guy for who he was and what he did? Oh yeah.... because he disappointed the fans who wished he could have been so much more and won more. I don't get it. I'm sure he's happy with his career, why can't his fans be?

[ChuckOakley]

we can say that about many players.

would Shaq be dominate if he wasn't 7'1 325?

I can see Yao Ming being as good as he was as 6'11 to be honest. Maybe even better because he might have more speed. His rebounding and shot blocking numbers might not be as high tho
We're not making excuses for Shaq as he was durable and could handle his height and his frame. Yao's body did not allow him to.

[ripthekik]

It's not a matter of being injury free, it was a matter of his being more proportionality sized, stronger, more durable. His size made him as good as he was but his body also limited how long he could last of the course of a season.

You had to take the good with the bad with Yao. To imply he would have held up over 82 games and the playoffs would imply he had a different sized body or strengh/durability he never had. So again, can we give Dwight Howard 6 more inches, or the ability to shoot 3s at 40%?

You started off by thinking his height gave him advantages and is his main weapon. Have you ever thought about how hard it is to control such a huge body? Look at everyone else that is over 7 foot 4. Do any of them have the maneuverability, footsteps like Yao?

Since this is all talk, if he was shorter he'd probably be even better, instead of being worse.

End of the day, it's useless to discuss it. OP asked which center you would take disregarding injury.

[Clippersfan86]

I think peak Yao was one of the best centers of all time. Sure it was extremely short lived but he had no glaring weakness. Could hit jumpers, dominate in the paint, play defense, pass out of doubles and rebound the ball. I remember how massive his presence on the court was on both ends. Surprisingly good agility and balance for his size.

[ChuckOakley]

You started off by thinking his height gave him advantages and is his main weapon. Have you ever thought about how hard it is to control such a huge body? Look at everyone else that is over 7 foot 4. Do any of them have the maneuverability, footsteps like Yao?

Since this is all talk, if he was shorter he'd probably be even better, instead of being worse.

End of the day, it's useless to discuss it. OP asked which center you would take disregarding injury.
Of course it gave him advantages on offense and defense.
Believe what you want.

And again... yes every Yao thread has to say "injury free". Of so if we are making up things, why can't we give some sort of advantage to Dwight or another Center? How about.. what if Manute Bol add 100 pounds of muscle?

How about this.. live in reality.
Yao was a great player, but he never held up over the course of an entire season or playoffs because of his incredible height, but without his incredible height do you really think he would have been the player he was?
Gotta take the good with the bad.

[ChuckOakley]

I think peak Yao was one of the best centers of all time. Sure it was extremely short lived but he had no glaring weakness. Could hit jumpers, dominate in the paint, play defense, pass out of doubles and rebound the ball. I remember how massive his presence on the court was on both ends. Surprisingly good agility and balance for his size.
Who is peak Yao? Yao's brother?

What did you think of Yao Ming the actual player?

[ripthekik]

Of course it gave him advantages on offense and defense.
Believe what you want.

And again... yes every Yao thread has to say "injury free". Of so if we are making up things, why can't we give some sort of advantage to Dwight or another Center? How about.. what if Manute Bol add 100 pounds of muscle?

How about this.. live in reality.
Yao was a great player, but he never held up over the course of an entire season or playoffs because of his incredible height, but without his incredible height do you really think he would have been the player he was?
Gotta take the good with the bad.
The thread made nothing up. It asked for him in his peak. We added nothing to his game. Nothing else. You compared it to adding 3pointer game to Dwight or 6 inches to another center :facepalm

You are talking apple to oranges :facepalm

In the GOAT threads a lot of times there's discussion about who had the most dominant peak. Shaq and Lebron benefited a lot. There is nothing unusual about it. We aren't making up any scenario. We are looking at 1 point in time. His peak. Get that straight.

[ChuckOakley]

The thread made nothing up. It asked for him in his peak. We added nothing to his game. Nothing else. You compared it to adding 3pointer game to Dwight or 6 inches to another center :facepalm

You are talking apple to oranges :facepalm

In the GOAT threads a lot of times there's discussion about who had the most dominant peak. Shaq and Lebron benefited a lot. There is nothing unusual about it. We aren't making up any scenario. We are looking at 1 point in time. His peak. Get that straight.
What is a peak?
1 game?
1 season?
5 season?

And when was it?

... very curious to hear this.



Most players have a peak that lasts a couple years and generally it includes most of the games played in a regular season and playoffs. Seems we have to limit Yao's to an isolated period of time to prop him up.

[iamgine]

I meant peak season

[ripthekik]

What is a peak?
1 game?
1 season?
5 season?

And when was it?

... very curious to hear this.



Most players have a peak that lasts a couple years and generally it includes most of the games played in a regular season and playoffs. Seems we have to limit Yao's to an isolated period of time to prop him up.
My original point was that people do compare only player's peaks and get rid of the other factors. We're not adding anything or taking away anything from their game. We just want to focus on them in their top form.

As for what is a peak, like you said, it varies and is different between various players. As long as we're not using an extremely small sample, and that player has obviously kept up that level for a while, I would say that is fine.

Yao has not fluctuated as a player. He has been consistent, and it's not hard to figure out where his peak is.


In 25 games after the All-Star break, Yao averaged 25.7 points and 11.6 rebounds per game, while shooting 53.7% from the field and 87.8% at the free-throw line.[62] His final averages in 57 games were 22.3 points and 10.2 rebounds per game.[43] It was the first time that he ended the season with a so-called "20/10" average.


Early into his fifth season, he had been averaging 26.8 points, 9.7 rebounds and 2.3 blocks per game, and had been mentioned as an MVP candidate

It's not like we're talking about Jeremy Lin and using his 20 games as his peak to prop him up as an all time great PG. Yao averaged those numbers and played for a high level over many seasons.

[ChuckOakley]

I meant peak season
Which was when?
It included how many regular season games and post season games?

[MiamiThrice]

Yao was ok, but he was never able to combine dominance(averaging 20-10+) along with staying healthy. In the years he did stay healthy his production wasn't much better than a guy like Rik Smits. In his best years he always got injured for the year because he couldn't handle playing that aggressive night after night.

People weren't meant to be 7'6 let alone professional athletes, which is why the dude always got hurt. His bones and muscle tendons were too abnormal.

[Whoah10115]

4 years ago?

Yao was always better than Dwight when he was healthy



Remind me when Yao was a top 5 player in the NBA.



And don't say 2006, 2007, or 2008.

[AK47DR91]

Yao was never the type of player that can go full 82 game + playoffs, healthy or not. He had stamina issues due to his size.

You wouldn't pick him over the likes of Dwight, Ewing or Zo, or other second-third-tier level (in terms of All-Time lists of centers) centers.

But if we're talking about 1 series match or 1 playoff run. I'd take Yao over Ewing and Zo even if Yao had way less playoff experiences than them. Hell, I'd probably take Yao over David Robinson in a playoff series. Not sure about Dwight because DH is still in his prime.

[Whoah10115]

But if we're talking about 1 series match or 1 playoff run. I'd take Yao over Ewing and Zo even if Yao had way less playoff experiences than them. Hell, I'd probably take Yao over David Robinson in a playoff series. Not sure about Dwight because DH is still in his prime.




:roll:

[tikay0]

I love how people totally forget how much more dominated the paint on defense than Howard. He was a 7'5 freak that altered shots just by being in the game.

[greymatter]

Yao's peak vs every other great center's peak?

Uh....somewhere in the 20-25 range (of all time centers). Right around Ben Wallace, Dikembe range, just behind Alonzo and Dwight Howard.

[ChuckOakley]

Yao was never the type of player that can go full 82 game + playoffs, healthy or not. He had stamina issues due to his size.

You wouldn't pick him over the likes of Dwight, Ewing or Zo, or other second-third-tier level (in terms of All-Time lists of centers) centers.

But if we're talking about 1 series match or 1 playoff run. I'd take Yao over Ewing and Zo even if Yao had way less playoff experiences than them. Hell, I'd probably take Yao over David Robinson in a playoff series. Not sure about Dwight because DH is still in his prime.
Good luck hoping he's healthy and fit by the playoffs.
I suppose you would rest him for the regular season and assume you would still make the playoffs without him?


This is bordering on absurd.
If there was a draft of big name center of recent memory it would go something like this...

Shaq
Hakeem
D.Rob
Ewing
Howard
Mourning
Mutumbo
Yao/Bynum

Assuming the owner GM cared about winning esp. in the post-season. If they cared about the revenue he would pull in, maybe he goes higher.

[lilgodfather1]

The for sure C's I would take over Yao are Shaq, Wilt, Russ, KAJ, Dream, Moses, Mikan, DRob, Duncan (if you consider him a C, I do).

The players I would have to think about Parish, Dwight, healthy Oden, Mourning, BEN WALLACE (one of my favs).

I'd easily take Yao in the top 15 though for sure. Not a historically great center like the first 9 are, but i'd likely take him over Oden, Mourning, and Wallace and a toss up with Dwight.

If we knew only what we knew at the time these players were actually drafted the list gets cut down substantially though. The first 9 are still pretty much above him (don't know much about how Russell was rated when he was drafted though so maybe not...), and Ben Wallace, Parish, Dwight, and Mourning are out of the picture leaving Yao as a top 11 prospect.

*I know i'm likely missing some great historical players. I didn't want to google anything atm, and that's all I can think of off of the top of my head.

Edit: Can't believe I forgot Ewing :( . I would also like to add that I don't know much about Mikan when he was drafted.

[StateOfMind12]

Remind me when Yao was a top 5 player in the NBA.



And don't say 2006, 2007, or 2008.
Ok, 2009. 2007 was his peak season but due to his lack of health and 2007 having more stacked talent he wasn't top 5 then. He was top 5 in 2009 though after Wade, Kobe, Lebron, and Paul.

Yao was better than Dwight was in 2009 and any season before 2009 but Dwight in 2011 was better than Yao ever was.

Yao at his peak was better than Zo though.

[lilgodfather1]

Remind me when Yao was a top 5 player in the NBA.



And don't say 2006, 2007, or 2008.
He was never a top 5 player because of the injuries, but he did have some very good seasons. He was just someone who could not be counted on to be healthy, and like it or not durability is definately a huge part of player rankings. If LeBron only plays 50 games a year he has no MVP's right now even if he was putting up the same stats.

[BlueandGold]

I never said he wasn't.
But he was as dominant as he was because of his height. If he was "only" 7 foot, he would have been a good center but more like Brook Lopez as in not a good rebounder or defender, but very good offensively.
You did conveniently leave that part out. People don't realize how talented Yao was for someone his size. Yao was a legit 7'1 center who was nearly 7'2 and was a 78% FT shooter.. for his career.

Yao also lasted much longer than Ralph Sampson, who had the luxury of playing on stellar teams led by Hakeem yet he didn't last as long as Yao. The hype/potential around Sampson was also considerably bigger than that of Yao. Yao height ultimately was his fatal witness because over time he just didn't have the knee/calf strength to support his huge frame, even with the amount of hours he put into the weight room... looking back maybe if he would have stayed thin his legs would still be more intact.

[StateOfMind12]

I think peak Yao was one of the best centers of all time. Sure it was extremely short lived but he had no glaring weakness. Could hit jumpers, dominate in the paint, play defense, pass out of doubles and rebound the ball. I remember how massive his presence on the court was on both ends. Surprisingly good agility and balance for his size.
Pick and roll defense, mobility.

His defense was very similar to Shaq's. You could expose him from the perimeter but he would shut down your team's best post player and alter plenty of shots in the paint.

[StateOfMind12]

Yao was as good as he was because of his height..
You could say that for just about every NBA player especially Centers, genius.

[ChuckOakley]

Ok, 2009. 2007 was his peak season but due to his lack of health and 2007 having more stacked talent he wasn't top 5 then. He was top 5 in 2009 though after Wade, Kobe, Lebron, and Paul.

Yao was better than Dwight was in 2009 and any season before 2009 but Dwight in 2011 was better than Yao ever was.

Yao at his peak was better than Zo though.
So his peak was 2009?
I guess.. in that he played 77 games and then 9 games in the playoffs before breaking his ankle.
He averaged 20/10/2/2 that year.
Doesn't seem that impressive.... 5th seed, 2nd round loss.

[ChuckOakley]

You did conveniently leave that part out. People don't realize how talented Yao was for someone his size. Yao was a legit 7'1 center who was nearly 7'2 and was a 78% FT shooter.. for his career.

Yao also lasted much longer than Ralph Sampson, who had the luxury of playing on stellar teams led by Hakeem yet he didn't last as long as Yao. The hype/potential around Sampson was also considerably bigger than that of Yao. Yao height ultimately was his fatal witness because over time he just didn't have the knee/calf strength to support his huge frame, even with the amount of hours he put into the weight room... looking back maybe if he would have stayed thin his legs would still be more intact.
Huh?
He was 7'5"/7'6"

[StateOfMind12]

So his peak was 2009?
His peak was in 2007 but like I said he wasn't considered top 5 in 2007 because there was more top heavy talent then.


I guess.. in that he played 77 games and then 9 games in the playoffs before breaking his ankle.
He averaged 20/10/2/2 that year.
Doesn't seem that impressive.... 5th seed, 2nd round loss.
I didn't know 20/10/2 with like 60+% TS% wasn't impressive.

Of course, one player is responsible for how far a team goes. Role players and the other players on the roster don't matter, just one guy. Yup. :rolleyes:

[ChuckOakley]

You could say that for just about every NBA player especially Centers, genius.
OK... so once you realize his extreme height is what led to his dominant play, but also was the reason he was physical unable to hold up through and entire season and playoffs, you realize why you can't just say.. IF he was never injured and always healthy.

[ChuckOakley]

His peak was in 2007 but like I said he wasn't considered top 5 in 2007 because there was more top heavy talent then.


I didn't know 20/10/2 with like 60+% TS% wasn't impressive.

Of course, one player is responsible for how far a team goes. Role players and the other players on the roster don't matter, just one guy. Yup. :rolleyes:
His peak was a 48 game season?

No thanks, I want a player that can play closer to 80 and all the playoffs.
Don't get why you would want that.


Again.. everyone is missing the point. Yao didn't have a sustainable peak. The closest he game was early in his career when he wasn't as good, or the 2009 season because he was actually able to play almost all of it.. before getting injured.

This whole adding a qualifier and adding abilities he never had is absurd.

[StateOfMind12]

His peak was a 48 game season?
In terms of ability, production, and so fourth, yes.

Like I said, peak was slightly worse than 2011 Howard but better than any other version of Howard and better than Zo.

That's all I have to say.

[ChuckOakley]

In terms of ability, production, and so fourth, yes.

Like I said, peak was slightly worse than 2011 Howard but better than any other version of Howard and better than Zo.

That's all I have to say.
So, am I allowed to find a 48 game sample of Dwight Howard's or Zo's stats/play that outdid Yao?

Even if I did, I wouldn't care. Without a sustainable peak it doesn't matter.

[StateOfMind12]

So, am I allowed to find a 48 game sample of Dwight Howard's or Zo's stats/play that outdid Yao?

Even if I did, I wouldn't care. Without a sustainable peak it doesn't matter.
Ok.

The OP asked how great Yao was at his peak and I'm telling him he was a little worse than Dwight at his but better than Zo at his. That is the benchmark.

[tmacattack33]

That wasn't even that long ago...wtf.

[ChuckOakley]

Ok.

The OP asked how great Yao was at his peak and I'm telling him he was a little worse than Dwight at his but better than Zo at his. That is the benchmark.
I just find it hard to call 48 games a peak.
You get into very murky territory.

I think a peak has to be at least a 1 or 2 year period of play. Everyone else's peak is generally 3-4 years and most players play a majority of the season and playoffs if they make it. Not sure why we need to make an exception for him.

[redhonda76]

Leaving out the injuries, during those 3 years, Yao was a monster. There was really no weakness in his offensive game. He was one of few players who are actually very reliable and is a go-to guy during clutch moments. You can't say that about Dwight.
Yao, just like Shaq, were often get the bad ends of the stick of the calls from the refs. Yao , like Shaq, often gets mugged and flopped from smaller players.
Yao was underrated defensively because people thinks Yao is so tall that he should like averaging 5 blocks a game. People forgot he's 7'6 300+ pounds and people body size aren't design to be athletic. Too bad that is no stats for altering shots.
We really never saw Yao peaked but I would put Yao ( based on no injuries) below Ewing/Robinson and above Dwight/Zo

[ripthekik]

I just find it hard to call 48 games a peak.
You get into very murky territory.

I think a peak has to be at least a 1 or 2 year period of play. Everyone else's peak is generally 3-4 years and most players play a majority of the season and playoffs if they make it. Not sure why we need to make an exception for him.
Why does a peak has to be certain amount of games played, or seasons anyway? Trying to look at a player's peak is to get rid of all the technical terms. Otherwise we would just compare the best 1 year, best 3 years, etc becoming another stats fest.

To me it's a level. If a player reaches that level, and he sustains it sufficiently, obvious to everyone (in this case, we all know Yao can be 24pts 10rb) that is the peak. I don't care how much games he played each season. He was able to play at that level around 4 years. That level of gameplay was his peak.

[greymatter]

I love how people totally forget how much more dominated the paint on defense than Howard.

Only retards believe this.


He was a 7'5 freak that altered shots just by being in the game.

How many all defensive squads has Yao ever made? He's had as many votes as guys like Joel Prybilla and Jason Collins. That's about it.

[ChuckOakley]

Why does a peak has to be certain amount of games played, or seasons anyway? Trying to look at a player's peak is to get rid of all the technical terms. Otherwise we would just compare the best 1 year, best 3 years, etc becoming another stats fest.

To me it's a level. If a player reaches that level, and he sustains it sufficiently, obvious to everyone (in this case, we all know Yao can be 24pts 10rb) that is the peak. I don't care how much games he played each season. He was able to play at that level around 4 years. That level of gameplay was his peak.
How can you say he sustained a peak when he clearly didn't?
His body could NOT hold up for the regular season or the playoffs.. period.
The NBA game is 82 games and then the playoffs. This isn't college or D.league.

I don't care how great his play or numbers are.. if he can't stay on the court, he can't win you games and his team has to adjust.

And you don't care how many games he played each season?!
WTH?!?!


I really think Yao fans are some of the most delusional fans I've ever talked to on the internet... the proof? They don't live in reality and when they talk about Yao, it's not about reality it's about a what if that didn't happen, nor was it possible.... as he proved.

[ripthekik]

How can you say he sustained a peak when he clearly didn't?
His body could NOT hold up for the regular season or the playoffs.. period.

I don't care how great his play or numbers are.. if he can't stay on the court, he can't win you games and his team has to adjust.

And you don't care how many games he played each season?!
WTH?!?!


I really think Yao fans are some of the most delusional fans I've ever talked to on the internet... the proof? They don't live in reality and when they talk about Yao, it's not about reality it's about a what if that didn't happen, nor was it possible.... as he proved.
I said I don't care about the games, because this thread clearly asks to ignore injury :facepalm
He DID sustained the level of his GAMEPLAY, and that level is quite high.

If you don't want to talk about this topic, why'd you come in here and answer? It is simply to ignore his injuries and focus on his level of gameplay. If you can't do that, or can't even picture it in your head, cool, just go to another thread.

It's not like we're debating a realistic scenario here. We aren't asked to play GM and pick one center for a serious team. If you want to argue realistically, then fine, you get to take into account injuries and such.

However, this topic only asks you to pick based on peaks of players. I don't understand why that is so hard to understand for you. We're talking about the level of gameplay, and nothing else.

[Amare4lyfe]

How can you say he sustained a peak when he clearly didn't?
His body could NOT hold up for the regular season or the playoffs.. period.
The NBA game is 82 games and then the playoffs. This isn't college or D.league.

I don't care how great his play or numbers are.. if he can't stay on the court, he can't win you games and his team has to adjust.

And you don't care how many games he played each season?!
WTH?!?!


I really think Yao fans are some of the most delusional fans I've ever talked to on the internet... the proof? They don't live in reality and when they talk about Yao, it's not about reality it's about a what if that didn't happen, nor was it possible.... as he proved.

Learn to read. How hard is it to understand?? The OP was asking with no injuries. Jesus Christ, it's like talking to the wall.
I'm an Amare fan and happy that he won rookie of the yr over Yao. During the time Yao was on the floor, he was unstoppable. We like to play against Dwight because he was much easier to defend and lacked post game. You can't say that with Yao.

[BoutPractice]

I don't think we ever witnessed the peak Yao Ming (though I guess he came close in his 25 PPG season).
Had Yao Ming been healthy, he would've been the best center in the league from Shaq's decline until Dwight's emergence into a real MVP worthy player.

[BoutPractice]

I don't think we ever witnessed the peak Yao Ming (though I guess he came close in his 25 PPG season).
Had Yao Ming been healthy, he would've been the best center in the league from Shaq's decline until Dwight's emergence into a real MVP worthy player.

[hon]

http://ww1.prweb.com/prfiles/2005/11/22/314304/NBACentersUniteforMLKMemorial.jpg

At the same level as these legends... maybe even surpassing them during his prime with TMac

[spiegel]

Without Injuries top 15 Center of alltime. Maybe even top 10.

[Xover]

we miss you big fella

[riseagainst]

career 83.3% freethrow shooter in regular season and playoffs. Very reliable in the fourth quarter.
:applause:

[Horde of Temujin]

Yao > Dwight

[sc19]

Peak Yao Ming is a communist.
/thread

[ILLsmak]

How can you say he sustained a peak when he clearly didn't?
His body could NOT hold up for the regular season or the playoffs.. period.
The NBA game is 82 games and then the playoffs. This isn't college or D.league.

I don't care how great his play or numbers are.. if he can't stay on the court, he can't win you games and his team has to adjust.

And you don't care how many games he played each season?!
WTH?!?!


I really think Yao fans are some of the most delusional fans I've ever talked to on the internet... the proof? They don't live in reality and when they talk about Yao, it's not about reality it's about a what if that didn't happen, nor was it possible.... as he proved.

Yao was good. We'll never know exactly how good because he wasn't on a contender. Generally, all of the players you want to rank above him were doing something great deep in the playoffs.

In terms of a C who was a scoring option, he's one of the only ones of "this era." He's one of those guys you could put in the game now and he'd get 20+.

When people say if Yao was shorter, the thing is, if he was 7'2 or 7', he might have been an even better skill player. The fact that he was 7'5 and as skilled was amazing. Manute Bol has some skills, too, but he was a rail.

-Smak

[sundizz]

Yao Ming < Dikembe Mutombo

Deke averaged 11, 12 and 4.5 blocks per game one year. He is one of the most underrated defenders ever. People dismiss him because he was DPOY and Shaq ate him alive in the 2k1 finals. However, no one in the history of basketball could of done anything to Shaq at that time. That shouldn't be counted against him. He did as much as anyone in the history of the game could have.

In that 2000-2001 playoffs he averaged 13.9 ppg, 13.7 rpg, 3.1 bpg!

He won 4 defensive players of the year, 3 in a row, led the NBA in blocks 5 seasons in a row. He was top 6 in blocks for 11 years!

In my opinion he is the greatest defender the league has ever had. No disrespect to Bill Russell but i never saw him play so I can't really relate what him or Chamberlain or Kareem did. However, either Hakeem or Deke is the greatest anchor the modern league has ever seen. They absolutely changed the way teams had to attack.

[FKAri]

Dwight in 2009 was on a team that was basically tailor made for him to succeed. Dwight got all the touches and was surrounded by 3 point shooters. He was not a go-to player at all just a glorified garbage man on O. On D he was certainly better than Yao even tho Yao gets underrated on that end. Peak Yao > that Dwight. Dwight did/does not have the mentality and overall package to lead a team anywhere.


I never said he wasn't.
But he was as dominant as he was because of his height. If he was "only" 7 foot, he would have been a good center but more like Brook Lopez as in not a good rebounder or defender, but very good offensively.

If Lebron had a 20 inch vertical he'd be outta the NBA. So Lebron is only good cuz he can jump. dat logic.

[tmacattack33]

No, i'd never pick Yao Ming before Alonzo Mourning or Dwight Howard.

[Optimus Prime]

Ah ... all the fun that was had arguing with delusional Tmac and Yao fanbois. Memories ... :kobe:

[TheFan]

Healthy Yao was pretty much unstoppable, remember a game where he went head to head against Shaq with little problems... He was very Strong, people forget how strong he was, because he looked skinny, but he had HUGE legs.

Yao was a stronger, taller Andrew Bogut with a Jumpshot.

The problem is that a healthy yao was as frequent as omnies.

[jlip]

While I understand the effectiveness of height in basketball, especially on the defensive end, what truly makes prime Yao better than prime Amare who was basically a center with the Suns (even though he's a natural pf)?

[mateoboz]

I try not to talk about Yao too much because a lot of people, even fellow Rocket fans, get upset when I say this, but Yao sucked. I don't care what the numbers say. He was soft and had terrible hands. I've never seen a player who could put up such big numbers, while having such a negative impact on the game. If you didn't watch the game and just saw the box score, you would say, "Wow! Yao had 25 points and 11 rebounds and the Rockets won!" But what you didn't see was the crucial rebound he got outhustled for. Or the simple entry pass he fumbled away out of bounds. Many times we won the game not because of Yao, but in spite of Yao. There were things in his game he was good at. And I'll never fault him for Game 1 of the 2009 Semi-Finals when our trainer had him in the tunnel waving him toward the locker room, and he stopped and shook his head no, came back out and led us to victory over the Lakers, no doubt his finest moment as a Rocket. But I don't miss him and I'm so glad that era of Rockets basketball is behind us.

[brain drain]

I try not to talk about Yao too much because a lot of people, even fellow Rocket fans, get upset when I say this, but Yao sucked. I don't care what the numbers say. He was soft and had terrible hands. I've never seen a player who could put up such big numbers, while having such a negative impact on the game. If you didn't watch the game and just saw the box score, you would say, "Wow! Yao had 25 points and 11 rebounds and the Rockets won!" But what you didn't see was the crucial rebound he got outhustled for. Or the simple entry pass he fumbled away out of bounds. Many times we won the game not because of Yao, but in spite of Yao. There were things in his game he was good at. And I'll never fault him for Game 1 of the 2009 Semi-Finals when our trainer had him in the tunnel waving him toward the locker room, and he stopped and shook his head no, came back out and led us to victory over the Lakers, no doubt his finest moment as a Rocket. But I don't miss him and I'm so glad that era of Rockets basketball is behind us.


No, just no. Yao definitely didn't suck. He was actually very good. The only problem (besides the injuries of course) was he wasn't quick, so teams could give the Rockets serious problems by pushing the tempo on O and swarming and fronting him on D.

[selrahc]

yao ming sucks. only reason why people think he was good was because he was chinese. just like jeremy lin. if yao had been black or white he basically wouldve just been another shawn bradley.

[TheFan]

No, just no. Yao definitely didn't suck. He was actually very good. The only problem (besides the injuries of course) was he wasn't quick, so teams could give the Rockets serious problems by pushing the tempo on O and swarming and fronting him on D.

this... also his other weakness was that the rockets could play small ball and were good at it...Yao used to slow them down.

[Nastradamus]

I try not to talk about Yao too much because a lot of people, even fellow Rocket fans, get upset when I say this, but Yao sucked. I don't care what the numbers say. He was soft and had terrible hands. I've never seen a player who could put up such big numbers, while having such a negative impact on the game. If you didn't watch the game and just saw the box score, you would say, "Wow! Yao had 25 points and 11 rebounds and the Rockets won!" But what you didn't see was the crucial rebound he got outhustled for. Or the simple entry pass he fumbled away out of bounds. Many times we won the game not because of Yao, but in spite of Yao. There were things in his game he was good at. And I'll never fault him for Game 1 of the 2009 Semi-Finals when our trainer had him in the tunnel waving him toward the locker room, and he stopped and shook his head no, came back out and led us to victory over the Lakers, no doubt his finest moment as a Rocket. But I don't miss him and I'm so glad that era of Rockets basketball is behind us.

This is like saying Shaq sucked because he wasn't a good FT shooter or elite shot blocker. Players typically have a flaw or two, but overall, Yao was a stud, period. On both ends of the floor. Plus scorer,rebounder,passer and defender. He was worth between 7.4 and 11.4 win shares every year of his career besides the last one, where he didn't play much at all.

[Nastradamus]

yao ming sucks. only reason why people think he was good was because he was chinese. just like jeremy lin. if yao had been black or white he basically wouldve just been another shawn bradley.

Yah, because Bradley gave you 20,10 and 2 per 36 after all..........

[mateoboz]

This is like saying Shaq sucked because he wasn't a good FT shooter or elite shot blocker. Players typically have a flaw or two, but overall, Yao was a stud, period. On both ends of the floor. Plus scorer,rebounder,passer and defender. He was worth between 7.4 and 11.4 win shares every year of his career besides the last one, where he didn't play much at all.

Yeah, like I said, I don't care what the numbers say. There is no clearer case of numbers not telling the whole story than there is with Yao. He just had a knack for making mistakes at the worst time, or on the simplest plays. But yeah...what can I say? I knew I would get eaten alive for that post, but that's just how I see it. I'm a lifelong Rockets fan, watched the guys whole career. Hell, I was watching the draft lottery when Steve Francis represented us and we won the #1 pick. I don't know what to say. He was so frustrating to watch. And, honestly, as much as I watched him and as passionately as I feel about him, it is SHOCKING to me to see how many people defend him. I always get shit on this subject. It's all good though. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[brantonli]

I try not to talk about Yao too much because a lot of people, even fellow Rocket fans, get upset when I say this, but Yao sucked. I don't care what the numbers say. He was soft and had terrible hands. I've never seen a player who could put up such big numbers, while having such a negative impact on the game. If you didn't watch the game and just saw the box score, you would say, "Wow! Yao had 25 points and 11 rebounds and the Rockets won!" But what you didn't see was the crucial rebound he got outhustled for. Or the simple entry pass he fumbled away out of bounds. Many times we won the game not because of Yao, but in spite of Yao. There were things in his game he was good at. And I'll never fault him for Game 1 of the 2009 Semi-Finals when our trainer had him in the tunnel waving him toward the locker room, and he stopped and shook his head no, came back out and led us to victory over the Lakers, no doubt his finest moment as a Rocket. But I don't miss him and I'm so glad that era of Rockets basketball is behind us.


Lol. Well. At least you know you are wrong.



I think you're severely underrating the fact, or even forgetting, that having Yao anchored our entire defence. We got lucky that we had Dikembe to come in when Yao was resting, but without either, our whole defence just crumbled. Also, where else are you going to get that 20 and 9 from? Juwan Howard sure as heck wasn't going to get that for us.

[mateoboz]

Lol. Well. At least you know you are wrong.



I think you're severely underrating the fact, or even forgetting, that having Yao anchored our entire defence. We got lucky that we had Dikembe to come in when Yao was resting, but without either, our whole defence just crumbled. Also, where else are you going to get that 20 and 9 from? Juwan Howard sure as heck wasn't going to get that for us.

I'll give you that. And Deke? Wow. The way he played for us completely changed the way I look at him and gave me a newfound respect for him as a player.

[unbreakable]

Yao was a beast .. Ill take him over Dwight hands down 7 days a week

[Mayweather]

I try not to talk about Yao too much because a lot of people, even fellow Rocket fans, get upset when I say this, but Yao sucked. I don't care what the numbers say. He was soft and had terrible hands. I've never seen a player who could put up such big numbers, while having such a negative impact on the game. If you didn't watch the game and just saw the box score, you would say, "Wow! Yao had 25 points and 11 rebounds and the Rockets won!" But what you didn't see was the crucial rebound he got outhustled for. Or the simple entry pass he fumbled away out of bounds. Many times we won the game not because of Yao, but in spite of Yao. There were things in his game he was good at. And I'll never fault him for Game 1 of the 2009 Semi-Finals when our trainer had him in the tunnel waving him toward the locker room, and he stopped and shook his head no, came back out and led us to victory over the Lakers, no doubt his finest moment as a Rocket. But I don't miss him and I'm so glad that era of Rockets basketball is behind us.

The Rockets missed playoffs 3 straight years under Francis. After getting Yao, they at least made postseason 5 out of 7 years (6 if you don't count his rookie year). Yes lets throw out all of his production because he fumbles the ball at times. He sucks.

Houston became a top defensive league when Yao was on the team, lost that claim the minute Yao stopped playing. I'm sure soft Yao had nothing to do with this.

I guess you don't remember him getting hacked on the head by Shaq and still dunking the ball on him. That oozed "soft" for sure. Let me know if you did forget, I'll find that vid for you.

I've seen Kobe/Dwight/KD/Lebron put up big numbers but create big TOs late game. I guess they suck in your view too.

Ultimately Yao had his weaknesses, stamina, bad hands, and terrible lateral movements. But non of those can/should wipe away his strengths as a defensive anchor and of course put up buckets on offense. For you to discount all the positives and put up blanket "he sucked" is SHOCKING.

[DCL]

i hated his hype during in his rookie year, even called him overrated, thought he was just another rik smits, but then he just kept on getting better and better every year. all gradual improvements.

can't knock on his hard work ethic. he shut me up by his peak, dropping 25 and 10 night in and night out.