Ben Wallace vs Dwight Howard

[Ikill]

who was the better defender

[Clippersfan86]

Wallace no question. Equal shot blocker and protector of the rim but much better man defender who played the passing lanes and could guard 2-5 effectively, where as Howard is limited to 5's and SOME 4's. Ben Wallace averaged 3+ blocks, 2+ steals and could guard any position besides PG.

[Clippersfan86]

Im no saying anything... but keep in mind that Wallace could focus solely on Defense.... Imagine Howard forgetting his offensive duties and focusing on grabbing boards and blocking shots.

I agree that Howard is better overall and agree that if he wasn't a 20 ppg scorer things may change but the OP's question is who the better defender is and it's Wallace without question.

[b1imtf]

Wallace

[jjayfive]

dwight... ben had wallace and prince... dwight was also primary offense..

[LA Lakers]

Hold up Clippersfan86, Howard cant guard 2-5 effectively? Come on now...

[Clippersfan86]

Hold up Clippersfan86, Howard cant guard 2-5 effectively? Come on now...

Nope. You ever watch Ben Wallace in his prime? No issue shifting out to the perimeter and guarding a wing. Never seen Howard do that as well or nearly as often. There is nothing Howard is better at defensively, period.

Man defense= Wallace
Rim defense= Wallace
Passing lanes/off ball defense= Wallace
Help defense= Wallace
Defensive rebound= equal

Next to Pippen and Rodman I think Wallace is the least flawed, most complete and versatile defender of all time. Have you seen Howard effectively guard prime Kobe for possessions? Because I've seen Ben Wallace do that.

[Clippersfan86]

Well, if that is the case... then there is no much to talk about... Wallace..

You have a good point though as to WHY Wallace was so great. I agree that the fact that he didn't even have to worry about scoring made it much easier to expend that much effort and energy on the defensive end where as Dwight has to carry a much bigger overall load. Which is why in general Dwight>>>>Wallace but defensively Wallace>>>>Dwight.


Another thing is I don't know if I've seen a better player in NBA history at controlling the blocked shot. Watch his blocked shots and you'll see the usually go to a teammate. Far more intelligent and higher IQ than people knew.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzXzMW27MBg

An interesting comment on this video.

"1st player in NBA history to get 1000 reb 150 blocks & 100 steals in four straight seasons..4 time dpoty...champion..1st undrafted player to start in the all star game & most games played by an undrafted player"

I knew most of this but damn that's impressive.

Here are two clips of Ben's man D with the steal and fastbreak finish. Sad thing is Ben's prime was before the Youtube age so a lot of things are very hard to find.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXVylfVraBM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTFSHz86ZtM

[SHAQisGOAT]

Big Ben

[Rake2204]

Here are two clips of Ben's man D with the steal and fastbreak finish. Sad thing is Ben's prime was before the Youtube age so a lot of things are very hard to find.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXVylfVraBM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTFSHz86ZtM
On the topic of Ben Wallace defense leading to instant offense: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyTRToRIGBM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv5LJ6o9lO0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3guuPba-I0

The essence of Ben Wallace as a player: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJGF333658g

It's hard to sit here and say flatly that Ben Wallace was a better defender than Dwight Howard is, but that's my first instinct. It seemed as if Ben Wallace had every wrinkle of defense accounted for. Yes, he blocked shots, rebounded and picked pockets, but he also hedged screens wonderfully, drew charges, and bruised with players much larger than he.

[Clippersfan86]

On the topic of Ben Wallace defense leading to instant offense: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyTRToRIGBM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv5LJ6o9lO0

The essence of Ben Wallace as a player: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJGF333658g

Thank you! So hard to find Wallace clips outside of the blocks and dunks :applause: . These blocks show exactly what I mentioned earlier. Sure dude would spike a shot out of bounds a lot of times but he was the GOAT at controlling the block right into the hands of a teammate. I think he talked about how that was a learned skill in an interview at some point.

[KyrieTheFuture]

Big Ben Wallace

[Clippersfan86]

On the topic of Ben Wallace defense leading to instant offense: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyTRToRIGBM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv5LJ6o9lO0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3guuPba-I0

The essence of Ben Wallace as a player: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJGF333658g

It's hard to sit here and say flatly that Ben Wallace was a better defender that Dwight Howard is, but that's my first instinct. It seemed as if Ben Wallace had every wrinkle of defense accounted for. Yes, he blocked shots, rebounded and picked pockets, but he also hedged screens wonderfully, drew charges, and bruised with players much larger than he.

You're too modest. Ben was better than Dwight at his own biggest strength which was protecting the rim (blocks, altering shots, intimidation) and on TOP of that he was a more versatile defender, better man defender and equal defensive rebounder. Also as you said he was elite at taking charges too and unlike Dwight didn't have superior physical tools. Sure he was a freak specimen with his wingspan and strength but didn't have it as easy as Dwight.

[Dbrog]

I think Ben was the more consistent defender and it has to do with his defensive IQ. He was just plain smarter. Not many stupid frustration fouls or things of the sort and knew how to use his body better (although his timings on rebounds weren't quite as good as Dwight). I love Ben and think he should've been FMVP over Chauncey.

However, Dwight simply affects the game more than Ben ever did so idk who was the better overall defender. I think at times Dwight is better but if you measure by consistency, Ben's got him.

[Clippersfan86]

I think Ben was the more consistent defender and it has to do with his defensive IQ. He was just plain smarter. Not many stupid frustration fouls or things of the sort and knew how to use his body better (although his timings on rebounds weren't quite as good as Dwight). I love Ben and think he should've been FMVP over Chauncey.

However, Dwight simply affects the game more than Ben ever did. So idk who was the better overall defender. I think at times Dwight is better but if you measure by consistency, Ben's got him.

The topic is purely defense, nothing else. You'll be hard pressed to convince anybody who watched both players in their prime (I have) that Dwight has more impact on a defense. I agree with your first paragraph.

[IGOTGAME]

Dwight is a better defender. I have always thought Wallace was slightly overrated as a defender. Dwight is clearly a tier higher.

What he did in Orlando was AMAZING. he allowed them to get away with starting and playing some of the worst defenders in the league. he got them to the damn finals with Hedo/Lewis splitting time at pf and Jameer Nelson at pg.

Honestly, I don't know anything that Wallace was better at than Howard except possibly steals. Howard was a better man defender, Wallace wasn't particularly good. Howard is a better pick and roll defender as well. As a shot blocker I will take Dwight as well.

btw...who started the myth that Ben Wallace was some great man to man defender? As a 6"7 center he wasn't guarding quicker players and couldn't effect taller skilled players at all. On the other hand Howard seems to be able to shut down post players when/if asked to.

[Clippersfan86]

Dwight is a better defender. I have always thought Wallace was slightly overrated as a defender. Dwight is clearly a tier higher.

What he did in Orlando was AMAZING. he allowed them to get away with starting and playing some of the worst defenders in the league. he got them to the damn finals with Hedo/Lewis splitting time at pf and Jameer Nelson at pg.

Ben Wallace anchored arguably the best defense of all time. Sorry but nowhere near being a true statement that Howard is clearly a tier higher. I personally think the 04 Pistons are better defensively than the Pistons of the 80's who got away with a BUNCH of dirty, non basketball defensive plays and that was counted as "defense".

Only team in NBA history to hold 5 teams under 70 points in one season and post all star break had a RIDICULOUS stretch of holding like 20 straight opponents under 85 points or something silly like that (correct me Pistons fans if wrong).

In the finals the Pistons held one of the most loaded teams of all time (Lakers) to.... 82 ppg average. Take away the scoring explosion of the Lakers scoring 99 points in game two and they averaged around 74 ppg. Do you realize how dominant that is? That's just out of prime Shaq and Payton and just entering prime Kobe along with other good pieces against a defensive minded team.

Against another all time great defensive team in the 08 Celtics for example the Lakers (Lakers were worse in 08 than 04 IMO) managed to average 94 ppg.

[Dbrog]

The topic is purely defense, nothing else. You'll be hard pressed to convince anybody who watched both players in their prime (I have) that Dwight has more impact on a defense. I agree with your first paragraph.

I think it just depends on how you define defense. If it's blocks, steals, and man-to-man, then clearly Wallace wins. However, if you think its help-side, rebounding, and taking up floor space, I think Dwight has the edge on that. I personally would be more scared of Wallace though if I was the offensive player. He would just embarrass you and rub it in your face :pimp:

[IGOTGAME]

Ben Wallace anchored arguably the best defense of all time. Sorry but nowhere near being a true statement that Howard is clearly a tier higher. I personally think the 04 Pistons are better defensively than the Pistons of the 80's who got away with a BUNCH of dirty, non basketball defensive plays and that was counted as "defense".

Only team in NBA history to hold 5 teams under 70 points in one season and post all star break had a RIDICULOUS stretch of holding like 20 straight opponents under 85 points or something silly like that (correct me Pistons fans if wrong).


The Pistons had a good defensive team. But we are talking about Wallace who was just a part of that defense. As far as skill wise there are tiers of players above him. Wallace isn't even a top 10 defensive big ever imo. Let's stop talking like he some great man defender.

Btw....were you watching basketball, Big Ben, when he was in his prime? seems odd based on you characterization of his game.

[Dbrog]

btw...who started the myth that Ben Wallace was some great man to man defender? As a 6"7 center he wasn't guarding quicker players and couldn't effect taller skilled players at all. On the other hand Howard seems to be able to shut down post players when/if asked to.

How can you say that? Wallace was one of the few people who could "control" Shaq. He would usually hold him under 30 (better than the rest of the league) and would often outrebound and outblock him :bowdown:

2001 and onward you can see this.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=wallabe01&p2=onealsh01

[IGOTGAME]

How can you say that? Wallace was one of the few people who could "control" Shaq. He would usually hold him under 30 (better than the rest of the league) and would often outrebound and outblock him :bowdown:

Wallace did not control prime shaq. That is a joke. He got ample help defense or Kobe simply wouldn't give him the ball. Wallace had no real effect on shaqs game.

Pls...this is more of the Ben Wallace revisionist history I don't like.

Wallace couldn't stop or bother a ton of power forwards and centers. He was just too small.

tbf, prime Shaq ended in 2002-2003. From 2003-2004 onward he began to slow down drastically(well in 2003-2004 he was sharing the ball with 3 HOFers). He wasn't stopping the Shaq that was just running over people.

[Clippersfan86]

The Pistons had a good defensive team. But we are talking about Wallace who was just a part of that defense. As far as skill wise there are tiers of players above him. Wallace isn't even a top 10 defensive big ever imo. Let's stop talking like he some great man defender.

Btw....were you watching basketball, Big Ben, when he was in his prime? seems odd based on you characterization of his game.

I didn't say other good defenders didn't play on the Pistons. Tayshaun Prince was a great wing defender and Sheed was a great defender as well. That being said Wallace was CLEARLY the defensive anchor of that team and biggest impact player. This is an undrafted player that won 4 DPOY awards for Christ's sake.

LOL at Wallace not even being a top 10 defensive big all time.

[Clippersfan86]

How can you say that? Wallace was one of the few people who could "control" Shaq. He would usually hold him under 30 (better than the rest of the league) and would often outrebound and outblock him :bowdown:

2001 and onward you can see this.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=wallabe01&p2=onealsh01

People like this guy you're talking too may shrug that off but considering how Shaq is arguably the most DOMINANT player in NBA history holding him below his averages like that consistently post 2001 is impressive as HELL for a 6'8 center let alone ANY player. What's more eye opening is watching Wallace hold him to under 8 rebounds on many occasions.

[Dbrog]

People like this guy you're talking too may shrug that off but considering how Shaq is arguably the most DOMINANT player in NBA history holding him below his averages like that consistently post 2001 is impressive as HELL for a 6'8 center let alone ANY player. What's more eye opening is watching Wallace hold him to under 8 rebounds on many occasions.

Exactly. Shaq was still dropping these numbers on Dwight when he was all old and washed up. Dwight just doesn't really have anything that is much of an advantage vs Shaq. Their games are too similar but Shaq is just bigger and better. At least Wallace had quickness, timing, and intelligence on his side.

[Clippersfan86]

Exactly. Shaq was still dropping these numbers on Dwight when he was all old and washed up. Dwight just doesn't really have anything that is much of an advantage vs Shaq. Their games are too similar but Shaq is just bigger and better. At least Wallace had quickness, timing, and intelligence on his side.

Agree :cheers: . Dwight dominates same way Shaq did.... nobody is big enough or strong enough to body him up really. Ben Wallace on the other hand was deemed UNDERSIZED and still dominated and anchored one of the or the best defense of all time while matching up with a MUCH better crop of centers and prime Shaq.

[IGOTGAME]

I didn't say other good defenders didn't play on the Pistons. Tayshaun Prince was a great wing defender and Sheed was a great defender as well. That being said Wallace was CLEARLY the defensive anchor of that team and biggest impact player. This is an undrafted player that won 4 DPOY awards for Christ's sake.

LOL at Wallace not even being a top 10 defensive big all time.

I can name 10 defenders(in no order off the top of my head) that I'd rather have anchor my team.

Duncan
Garnett
Kareeem
Wilt
Russel
Howard
prime Walton
Hakeem
Ewing
Robinson

[Clippersfan86]

I can name 10 defenders(in no order off the top of my head) that I'd rather have anchor my team.

Duncan
Garnett
Kareeem
Wilt
Russel
Howard
prime Walton
Hakeem
Ewing
Robinson

The only players who impacted the defense more in all aspects were Hakeem and Russell. Garnett and Duncan just behind prime Wallace defensively. Better than Ewing, Robinson, Walton, Howard, Wilt and Kareem defensively IMO.

[IGOTGAME]

The only players who impacted the defense more in all aspects were Hakeem and Russell. Garnett and Duncan just behind prime Wallace defensively. Better than Ewing, Robinson, Walton, Howard, Wilt and Kareem defensively IMO.

we are just going to have to agree to disagree. We are WAY too far apart on this.

[Clippersfan86]

we are just going to have to agree to disagree. We are WAY too far apart on this.

You're listing a 4 time DPOY as being worse than guys like Ewing and Robinson who while they were very good defensively, didn't truly anchor a defense and weren't known to be elite defenders. Also Mutombo and Zo were better defensive players and anchors than much of your list.

[Dbrog]

I can name 10 defenders(in no order off the top of my head) that I'd rather have anchor my team.

Duncan
Garnett
Kareeem
Wilt
Russel
Howard
prime Walton
Hakeem
Ewing
Robinson

I actually agree with all these except Howard and maybe Ewing. I would probably put Mutombo in front of Big Ben too. Even so, Ben is very close top top 10 defensive anchors and definitely top 15.

edit: and Zo!

edit #2: and Thurmond!

[IGOTGAME]

You're listing a 4 time DPOY as being worse than guys like Ewing and Robinson who while they were very good defensively, didn't truly anchor a defense and weren't known to be elite defenders. Also Mutombo and Zo were better defensive players and anchors than much of your list.

you just said David Robinson wasn't known as an elite defensive player. We have nothing more to talk about on the subject of defensive big men.

definitely check out some of Robinson's games if you can find them. I think you will be surprised at how dominant a defender he was

[Clippersfan86]

1. Russell
2. Hakeem
3. Wallace
4. Duncan
5. KG
6. Zo
7. Robinson
8. Howard
9. Walton
10. Mutombo

Wilt and Kareem dominated defense at times due to their size but I don't think of either of those as a true defensive anchor by any stretch.

[Clippersfan86]

you just said David Robinson wasn't known as an elite defensive player. We have nothing more to talk about on the subject of defensive big men.

definitely check out some of Robinson's games if you can find them. I think you will be surprised at how dominant a defender he was

Naw you're right, I wasn't being fair about Robinson, similar to how you aren't about Ben.

[D.J.]

Ben easily. Dwight is a marginally better rebounder and Ben has a slight edge in shot blocking, but Ben is noticably better in just about every other aspect of defense. He's a better man defender, significantly better help defender, had the ability to play passing lanes like a perimeter player, and could guard just about any position. He wasn't limited to post defense, unlike Dwight. Ben anchored the best defense in modern basketball. He was a significant reason for the Pistons holding all those teams under 70 points.

[Dbrog]

Wilt and Kareem dominated defense at times due to their size but I don't think of either of those as a true defensive anchor by any stretch.

Wilt was known to have games where he blocked over 10 shots :eek:
Kareem ate shots like a beast too. Both of them were insane on the glass (although i'll admit lazy at times). Even so, how can you say that neither was a true defensive anchor? :confusedshrug:

[Clippersfan86]

Ben easily. Dwight is a marginally better rebounder and Ben has a slight edge in shot blocking, but Ben is noticably better in just about every other aspect of defense. He's a better man defender, significantly better help defender, had the ability to play passing lanes like a perimeter player, and could guard just about any position. He wasn't limited to post defense, unlike Dwight. Ben anchored the best defense in modern basketball. He was a significant reason for the Pistons holding all those teams under 70 points.

I said this exact thing in different words and people think I'm crazy :confusedshrug: . When does Dwight step out and rotate onto wing players and get stops? Play the passing lanes and get steals for easy fastbreak dunks?

[Clippersfan86]

Wilt was known to have games where he blocked over 10 shots :eek:
Kareem ate shots like a beast too. Both of them were insane on the glass (although i'll admit lazy at times). Even so, how can you say that neither is a true defensive anchor? :confusedshrug:

As I said.. hate to say it and know I'll get a Lauber essay but I think it was MUCH easier to dominate as a big back then. Which is clear based on the massively inflated stats of the earlier basketball eras. Besides blocking shots doesn't make a defender.

[Dbrog]

As I said.. hate to say it and know I'll get a Lauber essay but I think it was MUCH easier to dominate as a big back then. Which is clear based on the massively inflated stats of the earlier basketball eras. Besides blocking shots doesn't make a defender. I've watched the Wilt/Kareem footage on tapes and what's been posted online and nothing screamed one of the most dominant defensive anchors ever. I didn't say they weren't great defensively but defensive anchors? They were more known for their scoring, rebounding etc.

:oldlol: "Big Black" haha got a kick outa that.

Well, I'm not gonna argue the era point cause I'm clearly not going to convince you to change your views on that. However, Jabbar was the Lakers defense in the 80s. Surely that's not too long ago for you. Big is big, and those two were fcking huge!

[D.J.]

I said this exact thing in different words and people think I'm crazy :confusedshrug: . When does Dwight step out and rotate onto wing players and get stops? Play the passing lanes and get steals for easy fastbreak dunks?


On top of that, Ben has a lower career defensive rating(95.8 compared to Dwight's 98.0). That's a pretty significant difference.

[Rake2204]

Dwight is a better defender. I have always thought Wallace was slightly overrated as a defender. Dwight is clearly a tier higher.

What he did in Orlando was AMAZING. he allowed them to get away with starting and playing some of the worst defenders in the league. he got them to the damn finals with Hedo/Lewis splitting time at pf and Jameer Nelson at pg.

Honestly, I don't know anything that Wallace was better at than Howard except possibly steals. Howard was a better man defender, Wallace wasn't particularly good. Howard is a better pick and roll defender as well. As a shot blocker I will take Dwight as well.

btw...who started the myth that Ben Wallace was some great man to man defender? As a 6"7 center he wasn't guarding quicker players and couldn't effect taller skilled players at all. On the other hand Howard seems to be able to shut down post players when/if asked to.I do not believe Ben Wallace is in a tier below Dwight Howard defensively. The Orlando Magic earning a trip to the Finals was very admirable, but I would stop short of saying their success was merely a direct result of Dwight Howard's higher-tier-than-Wallace defense. A lot of things were working for Orlando that year, even with their role players.

I personally believe it's a little bit of a disservice to so readily dismiss Ben Wallace's defensive abilities in comparison to Dwight Howard's. I think we could debate each player's specific shot blocking skills, but there's no getting around the fact Howard's never even eclipsed the 3bpg mark in a single season of his career, whereas Wallace has done so thrice (peaking at 3.5bpg in '02). In fact, even including Wallace's first years of his career on the bench and his last years as a mentor, his career blocks per game average is still only .2 below where a prime Dwight Howard falls as we speak.

Secondly, and I suppose this one is more or less just going to be up to personal opinion (as there's not many statistics to support this point), but I do not believe Dwight Howard is a superior pick-and-roll defender than Ben Wallace. Of all the things Ben Wallace contributed on the defensive end, I often viewed his decisive ability to hedge or trap, then recover to be one of the finest examples of big man pick-and-roll play I've ever watched in my young life.

Third, I do think Wallace played excellent man-to-man defense, but I am most understanding of this being one of his primary defensive criticisms. I did not visit the link provided in this thread supposedly showing that Shaquille O'Neal's numbers dropped against the Pistons, but even if that were true, I'm not convinced it was due to Ben Wallace's stopping power. Instead, going off memory (and repeated views of the '04 Finals and '06 Eastern Conference Finals), Shaquille O'Neal walked all over Wallace (and everyone else, really).

In '04 specifically, the Pistons were content upon not doubling Shaquille O'Neal in the post, a rarity out of the Laker's opposition those days. As a result, O'Neal feasted on Ben Wallace early and through the flow of the game (or O'Neal's fatigue), he just stopped seeing the ball.

Even with all that in mind, I think a 6'8'' Wallace attempting to guard 7'1'' 325lbs. Shaquille O'Neal and coming up short doesn't necessarily mean too much to me in terms of his defensive ability. I recall Wallace performing very well against nearly every other big man he faced over the years (Yao is another one I seem to recall giving him trouble). Outside of Yao and O'Neal though, to suggest Wallace did not affect taller skilled players seems off base if nothing else.

I also cannot speak much upon Wallace's ability to guard positions 2-5. I don't remember him matching up with players in the backcourt very often, though I do know on switches and situational plays, he more than held his own. If nothing else, I think Wallace was much more comfortable with switching out on "non-bigs" than Dwight would ever be. The ideal situation is obviously not to have either of these guys matching up with a guard, but I'd venture to say the Pistons were more comfortable with a Wallce-guard switch than the Magic ever would have been with Howard leaving the post area to switch onto a guard himself.

While we seem to agree on Ben's advantage over Dwight as a pick-pocket, I also believe Wallace gives Howard a run for his money in the help-defense department. On top of Wallace's shot blocking advantage, I think there's at least a case to be made that Wallace was quite exceptional in his defensive help positioning (like Howard), even if it just meant being at the right spot and not blocking a shot. I also feel Wallace's willingness and ability to draw charges vastly outweighs Howard's own ability.

Lastly, I think there's something to be said for Ben Wallace's ability to play such stellar defense while committing such a low number of fouls. Howard is much more susceptible to foul trouble for his defensive efforts (Howard has averaged a full foul more in his prime than Wallace).

In whole, Ben Wallace was an undersized anchoring defender who could not handle Shaquille O'Neal, but could block shots, hedge and defend pick-and-rolls like a guard, play passing lanes, pick pockets, clog the lane, provide exceptional helpside defense, defend players much larger than he with great ability, draw charges, chase down offensive players on fast breaks, tie up players for jump balls, and bring maximum energy to the defensive end of the court every single night. The comparison between his ability and Howard's is obviously up for debate, but to so readily place Howard in a higher defensive tier seems short sighted.

[Clippersfan86]

On top of that, Ben has a lower career defensive rating(95.8 compared to Dwight's 98.0). That's a pretty significant difference.

People constantly talk about how Howard made the Magic defense (I agree) and act like Wallace didn't turn the Pistons around similarly??? Pistons just by adding Wallace pretty much went from the 21st overall defense to the 8th overall defense in one year. Both the 00 and 01 Pistons rosters outside of Stackhouse were bad and the only change really worth noting was Ben. Sure Corliss Williamson and Joe Smith were solid vets but nothing special at all.

[josh99]

I said this exact thing in different words and people think I'm crazy :confusedshrug: . When does Dwight step out and rotate onto wing players and get stops? Play the passing lanes and get steals for easy fastbreak dunks?
:facepalm do you even watch games?

[Clippersfan86]

BTW Rake exactly what you said. When you say he didn't regularly guard wings but when he had to switch more than held his own is exactly what I meant. Not saying he was matched up with wings or anything but rather if he had to switch onto one he did a great job and COULD in those situations guard any position outside of PG pretty much. Let's see Dwight switch out on Kobe, Lebron, Durant etc... he will get clowned.

[ashlar]

Are we gonna act like Ben Wallace didn't play with a PRIME Sheed, Prince, Billups and Rip? All above good to GREAT defenders. Give Dwight those 4 guys in their prime and you would see the the best defense the nba has ever seen.

[josh99]

I do not believe Ben Wallace is in a tier below Dwight Howard defensively. The Orlando Magic earning a trip to the Finals was very admirable, but I would stop short of saying their success was merely a direct result of Dwight Howard's higher-tier-than-Wallace defense. A lot of things were working for Orlando that year, even with their role players.

I personally believe it's a little bit of a disservice to so readily dismiss Ben Wallace's defensive abilities in comparison to Dwight Howard's. I think we could debate each player's specific shot blocking skills, but there's no getting around the fact Howard's never even eclipsed the 3bpg mark in a single season of his career, whereas Wallace has done so thrice (peaking at 3.5bpg in '02). In fact, even including Wallace's first years of his career on the bench and his last years as a mentor, his career blocks per game average is still only .2 below where a prime Dwight Howard falls as we speak.

Secondly, and I suppose this one is more or less just going to be up to personal opinion (as there's not many statistics to support this point), but I do not believe Dwight Howard is a superior pick-and-roll defender than Ben Wallace. Of all the things Ben Wallace contributed on the defensive end, I often viewed his decisive ability to hedge or trap, then recover to be one of the finest examples of big man pick-and-roll play I've ever watched in my young life.

Third, I do think Wallace played excellent man-to-man defense, but I am most understanding of this being one of his primary defensive criticisms. I did not visit the link provided in this thread supposedly showing that Shaquille O'Neal's numbers dropped against the Pistons, but even if that were true, I'm not convinced it was due to Ben Wallace's stopping power. Instead, going off memory (and repeated views of the '04 Finals and '06 Eastern Conference Finals), Shaquille O'Neal walked all over Wallace (and everyone else, really).

In '04 specifically, the Pistons were content upon not doubling Shaquille O'Neal in the post, a rarity out of the Laker's opposition those days. As a result, O'Neal feasted on Ben Wallace early and through the flow of the game (or O'Neal's fatigue), he just stopped seeing the ball.

Even with all that in mind, I think a 6'8'' Wallace attempting to guard 7'1'' 325lbs. Shaquille O'Neal and coming up short doesn't necessarily mean too much to me in terms of his defensive ability. I recall Wallace performing very well against nearly every other big man he faced over the years (Yao is another one I seem to recall giving him trouble). Outside of Yao and O'Neal though, to suggest Wallace did not affect taller skilled players seems off base if nothing else.

I also cannot speak much upon Wallace's ability to guard positions 2-5. I don't remember him matching up with players in the backcourt very often, though I do know on switches and situational plays, he more than held his own.

While we seem to agree on Ben's advantage over Dwight as a pick-pocket, I also believe Wallace gives Howard a run for his money in the help-defense department. On top of Wallace's shot blocking advantage, I think there's at least a case to be made that Wallace was quite exceptional in his defensive help positioning (like Howard), even if it just meant being at the right spot and not blocking a shot. I also feel Wallace's willingness and ability to draw charges vastly outweighs Howard's own ability.

Lastly, I think there's something to be said for Ben Wallace's ability to play such stellar defense while committing such a low number of fouls. Howard is much more susceptible to foul trouble for his defensive efforts (Howard has averaged a full foul more in his prime than Wallace).

In whole, Ben Wallace was an undersized anchoring defender who could not handle Shaquille O'Neal, but could block shots, hedge and defend pick-and-rolls like a guard, play passing lanes, pick pockets, clog the lane, provide exceptional helpside defense, defend players much larger than he with great ability, draw charges, chase down offensive players on fast breaks, tie up players for jump balls, and bring maximum energy to the defensive end of the court every single night. The comparison between his ability and Howard's is obviously up for debate, but to so readily place Howard in a higher defensive tier seems short sighted.
Good post :cheers: .

[Clippersfan86]

:facepalm do you even watch games?

ONLY player in NBA history to get 1000 reb 150 blocks & 100 steals in four straight seasons

Ben Wallace had superior man defense and off ball D.

[Clippersfan86]

Are we gonna act like Ben Wallace didn't play with a PRIME Sheed, Prince, Billups and Rip? All above good to GREAT defenders. Give Dwight those 4 guys in their prime and you would see the the best defense the nba has ever seen.

We gonna act like all of those players were there the whole time? Ben got the Pistons into the top 5 overall defense BEFORE Wallace, Billups and Prince. Btw Rip was an average defender, nothing worth noting.

[D.J.]

Are we gonna act like Ben Wallace didn't play with a PRIME Sheed, Prince, Billups and Rip? All above good to GREAT defenders. Give Dwight those 4 guys in their prime and you would see the the best defense the nba has ever seen.


Ben averaged 13.2 RPG/1.3 SPG/2.3 BPG in '01 with the best players after Stackhouse being Joe Smith and Chucky Atkins. They were also 8th in defensive rating from 21st the year before.

Ben averaged 13.0 RPG/1.7 SPG/3.5 BPG in '02 with a fairly similar team. The only differences being Clifford Robinson and a healthy Williamson. Jon Barry also joined, but he didn't provide anything significant.

Ben averaged 15.4 RPG/1.4 SPG/3.2 BPG in '03 with the additions of Hamilton and Billups.


The other 4 helped tremendously, but to discredit Ben and say that Dwight would automatically succeed with those 4 is absurd.

[D.J.]

Ben got the Pistons into the top 5 overall defense BEFORE Wallace, Billups and Prince. Btw Rip was an average defender, nothing worth noting.


They were 4th in '03, but they had Billups and Prince was a bench player playing only 10 MPG. He did get significant playing time in the playoffs for his good D.

[Clippersfan86]

Ben averaged 13.2 RPG/1.3 SPG/2.3 BPG in '01 with the best players after Stackhouse being Joe Smith and Chucky Atkins. They were also 8th in defensive rating from 21st the year before.

Ben averaged 13.0 RPG/1.7 SPG/3.5 BPG in '02 with a fairly similar team. The only differences being Clifford Robinson and a healthy Williamson. Jon Barry also joined, but he didn't provide anything significant.

Ben averaged 15.4 RPG/1.4 SPG/3.2 BPG in '03 with the additions of Hamilton and Billups.


The other 4 helped tremendously, but to discredit Ben and say that Dwight would automatically succeed with those 4 is absurd.

:applause: :applause:

LOL at people trying to list Hamilton as a defensive boost when the guy was considered a defensive LIABILITY for much of his career. Not strong enough to guard SG's or SF's is what people labeled.

[D.J.]

:applause: :applause:

Also in 02 the Pistons went up to the 4th ranked defense BEFORE all of those additions. LOL at people trying to list Hamilton as a defensive boost when the guy was considered a defensive LIABILITY for much of his career. Not strong enough to guard SG's or SF's is what people labeled.


They were 8th in 2002.

[IGOTGAME]

I do not believe Ben Wallace is in a tier below Dwight Howard defensively. The Orlando Magic earning a trip to the Finals was very admirable, but I would stop short of saying their success was merely a direct result of Dwight Howard's higher-tier-than-Wallace defense. A lot of things were working for Orlando that year, even with their role players.

I personally believe it's a little bit of a disservice to so readily dismiss Ben Wallace's defensive abilities in comparison to Dwight Howard's. I think we could debate each player's specific shot blocking skills, but there's no getting around the fact Howard's never even eclipsed the 3bpg mark in a single season of his career, whereas Wallace has done so thrice (peaking at 3.5bpg in '02). In fact, even including Wallace's first years of his career on the bench and his last years as a mentor, his career blocks per game average is still only .2 below where a prime Dwight Howard falls as we speak.

Secondly, and I suppose this one is more or less just going to be up to personal opinion (as there's not many statistics to support this point), but I do not believe Dwight Howard is a superior pick-and-roll defender than Ben Wallace. Of all the things Ben Wallace contributed on the defensive end, I often viewed his decisive ability to hedge or trap, then recover to be one of the finest examples of big man pick-and-roll play I've ever watched in my young life.

Third, I do think Wallace played excellent man-to-man defense, but I am most understanding of this being one of his primary defensive criticisms. I did not visit the link provided in this thread supposedly showing that Shaquille O'Neal's numbers dropped against the Pistons, but even if that were true, I'm not convinced it was due to Ben Wallace's stopping power. Instead, going off memory (and repeated views of the '04 Finals and '06 Eastern Conference Finals), Shaquille O'Neal walked all over Wallace (and everyone else, really).

In '04 specifically, the Pistons were content upon not doubling Shaquille O'Neal in the post, a rarity out of the Laker's opposition those days. As a result, O'Neal feasted on Ben Wallace early and through the flow of the game (or O'Neal's fatigue), he just stopped seeing the ball.

Even with all that in mind, I think a 6'8'' Wallace attempting to guard 7'1'' 325lbs. Shaquille O'Neal and coming up short doesn't necessarily mean too much to me in terms of his defensive ability. I recall Wallace performing very well against nearly every other big man he faced over the years (Yao is another one I seem to recall giving him trouble). Outside of Yao and O'Neal though, to suggest Wallace did not affect taller skilled players seems off base if nothing else.

I also cannot speak much upon Wallace's ability to guard positions 2-5. I don't remember him matching up with players in the backcourt very often, though I do know on switches and situational plays, he more than held his own. If nothing else, I think Wallace was much more comfortable with switching out on "non-bigs" than Dwight would ever be. The ideal situation is obviously not to have either of these guys matching up with a guard, but I'd venture to say the Pistons were more comfortable with a Wallce-guard switch than the Magic ever would have been with Howard leaving the post area to switch onto a guard himself.

While we seem to agree on Ben's advantage over Dwight as a pick-pocket, I also believe Wallace gives Howard a run for his money in the help-defense department. On top of Wallace's shot blocking advantage, I think there's at least a case to be made that Wallace was quite exceptional in his defensive help positioning (like Howard), even if it just meant being at the right spot and not blocking a shot. I also feel Wallace's willingness and ability to draw charges vastly outweighs Howard's own ability.

Lastly, I think there's something to be said for Ben Wallace's ability to play such stellar defense while committing such a low number of fouls. Howard is much more susceptible to foul trouble for his defensive efforts (Howard has averaged a full foul more in his prime than Wallace).

In whole, Ben Wallace was an undersized anchoring defender who could not handle Shaquille O'Neal, but could block shots, hedge and defend pick-and-rolls like a guard, play passing lanes, pick pockets, clog the lane, provide exceptional helpside defense, defend players much larger than he with great ability, draw charges, chase down offensive players on fast breaks, tie up players for jump balls, and bring maximum energy to the defensive end of the court every single night. The comparison between his ability and Howard's is obviously up for debate, but to so readily place Howard in a higher defensive tier seems short sighted.

I didn't "readily" place Howard a tier above Wallace. I watched Wallace's whole career and have always thought he was overrated as a defender. He should get into the HOF as a defender. But, playing a 6"7 center does have it's drawback. You need a very particular power forward around him. You couldn't start Hedo or Rashard Lewis or Ryan Anderson next Ben Wallace and not get destroyed.

As to your points, I disagree on quite a few. I think Howard was at least Wallace's equal on the pick and roll. He covered more ground and did it quicker than Wallace. He also alters more shots than Wallace due to superior athletism.

Second, Howard imo was a vastly superior man defender. Wallace was not even close to a shut down defender. You weren't putting him on KG, Duncan, Dirk, Shaq, Webber, Yao and he would not shut them down. Currently, Dwight just dominates other centers Defensively while shutting down the pick and roll. Dwight is the only person I have seen do that since Tim Duncan and Hakeem. This is huge and one of the most important aspects of being a post defender.

I would take Howard defensively over Wallace easily. Same way I would take what Duncan. Yes, I think Dwight has the potential to get into that Duncan class very soon.

[Clippersfan86]

They were 4th in '03, but they had Billups and Prince was a bench player playing only 10 MPG. He did get significant playing time in the playoffs for his good D.

Billups was a very underrated defender back then no doubt. As you said Prince who was a VERY good defender on the perimeter barely played. As you said anybody who's trying to take credit away from Ben as being the undisputed best defender and anchor of the Pistons D is smoking crack.

[Clippersfan86]

They were 8th in 2002.

Had the years wrong and edited it out.

[Clippersfan86]

I didn't "readily" place Howard a tier above Wallace. I watched Wallace's whole career and have always thought he was overrated as a defender.

As to your points, I disagree on quite a few. I think Howard was at least Wallace's equal on the pick and roll. He covered more ground and did it quicker than Wallace. He also alters more shots than Wallace due to superior athletism.

Second, Howard imo was a vastly superior man defender. Wallace was not even close to a shut down defender. You weren't putting him on KG, Duncan, Dirk, Shaq, Webber, Yao and he would not shut them down. Currently, Dwight just dominates other centers Defensively while shutting down the pick and roll. Dwight is the only person I have seen do that since Tim Duncan and Hakeem. This is huge and one of the most important aspects of being a post defender.

I would take Howard defensively over Wallace easily. Same way I would take what Duncan. Yes, I think Dwight has the potential to get into that Duncan class very soon.

:roll: :hammerhead: :hammerhead: Wallace had guard like lateral speed on defense so to say Howard was easily quicker is a joke from somebody who supposedly claims he watched both primes. Wallace was more agile than Howard and it's not even a debate. Howard is a better leaper and is bigger but Wallace was a freak athlete and specimen for his size.

Also one of the top 5 shot blockers in NBA history who altered more shots than anybody outside of Hakeem and Russell quite possibly and he's worse at altering shots than Howard :biggums:? So Dwight's supposed superior athleticism= more altered shots, yet averages a full block less than prime Wallace? Keep dropping that knowledge son!

Also "Howard is a vastly superior man defender" made me laugh outloud.

[josh99]

ONLY player in NBA history to get 1000 reb 150 blocks & 100 steals in four straight seasons

Ben Wallace had superior man defense and off ball D.
Exactly what I mean, looks up stats and doesn't watch games. And just before you were saying blocked shots don't make a good defender :facepalm . Tell me is there a stat for guarding someone well in the post? or guarding a pick n roll well? or altering shots? rotating at the right time? hedging? trapping? taking up space in the lane and making slashers change direction?

[DetroitPiston]

I know people like to list Ben's teammates from the 04 season, but don't forget there were seasons when he was playing alongside guys like Zeljko Rebraca, Damon Jones, an old Clifford Robinson, and Jerry Stackhouse. Pistons looked better on defense when he was on there.

[Clippersfan86]

Exactly what I mean, looks up stats and doesn't watch games. And just before you were saying blocked shots don't make a good defender :facepalm . Tell me is there a stat for guarding someone well in the post? or guarding a pick n roll well? or altering shots? rotating at the right time? hedging? trapping? taking up space in the lane and making slashers change direction?

Huh? I watched Wallace when he was on the freaking Wizards. I'm not stat watching although in this context we must also include stats to help further the discussion. Blocking shots doesn't make a defender which is a great point you've brought me back to. Take away blocked shots from both players (where Wallace was superior) and that's where it really stands out that Wallace was more complete/better defensively.

[josh99]

Huh? I watched Wallace when he was on the freaking Wizards. I'm not stat watching although in this context we must also include stats to help further the discussion. Blocking shots doesn't make a defender which is a great point you've brought me back to. Take away blocked shots from both players (where Wallace was superior) and that's where it really stands out that Wallace was more complete/better defensively.
Wait so steals and rebounds make a good defender?

[Clippersfan86]

Wait so steals and rebounds make a good defender?

Steals, taking charges, defensive rebounds, man defense, off the ball defense (in general your awareness in the passing lanes and on players you're not guarding), PNR defense are all things Wallace was better at than Howard. You could say rebounding is on par just by raw stats but look at the more in depth numbers.

Ben Wallace in 2002-2003 grabbed literally 35 percent of his teams TOTAL defensive rebounds and 23+ percent overall which is downright INCREDIBLE. Dwight's career best defensive rebounding percentage is 31.5 percent and total rebound percentage of 21.7.

Bottom line is... Wallace was a better rebounder who played in a much tougher, more physical era with more physically intimidating bigs.

[IGOTGAME]

:roll: :hammerhead: :hammerhead: Wallace had guard like lateral speed on defense so to say Howard was easily quicker is a joke from somebody who supposedly claims he watched both primes. Wallace was more agile than Howard and it's not even a debate. Howard is a better leaper and is bigger but Wallace was a freak athlete and specimen for his size.

Also one of the top 5 shot blockers in NBA history who altered more shots than anybody outside of Hakeem and Russell quite possibly and he's worse at altering shots than Howard :biggums:? So Dwight's supposed superior athleticism= more altered shots, yet averages a full block less than prime Wallace? Keep dropping that knowledge son!

Also "Howard is a vastly superior man defender" made me laugh outloud.

They way they get their blocks wasn't the same. Wallace wasn't meeting shots at 4 inches above the top of the box. Howard was. One does more to alter shots than the other.

I wouldn respond to the rest but you think Zo is a better defender than David Robinson. Furthermore, you honestly have Wallace ranked above Robinson and Duncan. There is no reasoning with someone like this.

[Clippersfan86]

They way they get their blocks wasn't the same. Wallace wasn't meeting shots at 4 inches above the top of the box. Howard was. One does more to alter shots than the other.

I wouldn respond to the rest but you think Zo is a better defender than David Robinson. Furthermore, you honestly have Wallace ranked above Robinson and Duncan. There is no reasoning with someone like this.

My ranking was a quick put together and the 4-10 spots are EXTREMELY close and debatable IMO.

WTF? Most of Wallace's blocks were well above the rim and at the box bro, you must be thinking of another player.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK8ya2zof9Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iLSXvCfslg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fegi_jQyexM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUClkPeEy-k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgP2MyeLeyA

This guy had more pin blocks than I've seen and more spikes and you think dude is barely getting air? :biggums:

[IGOTGAME]

My ranking was a quick put together and the 4-10 spots are EXTREMELY close and debatable IMO.

WTF? Most of Wallace's blocks were well above the rim and at the box bro, you must be thinking of another player.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK8ya2zof9Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iLSXvCfslg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fegi_jQyexM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUClkPeEy-k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgP2MyeLeyA

This guy had more pin blocks than I've seen and more spikes and you think dude is barely getting air? :biggums:

didn't say he didn't get air. But, Dwight Howard gets up about 6 inches higher above the rim and is an insanely quick and agile leaper(this while starting at 6"9 or 6"10). That is a big difference.

[Clippersfan86]

didn't say he didn't get air. But, Dwight Howard gets up about 6 inches higher above the rim. That is a big difference.

Yea so did Ben. Many of these blocks his hand is mid-top box just like Dwight. In general Dwight is the better leaper but when it comes to blocking shots Dwight doesn't get any higher than Ben IMO. Ben was a much quicker leaper who could get off his feet multiple times to get rebounds, tips and blocks.

The only reason Wallace was able to handle much bigger players in his career was DUE to that great athleticism and strength (also had a good wingspan). Also people don't realize Ben admitted he's closer to 6'7 than 6'9 so his strength and athleticism becomes even more impressive.

[D.J.]

Ben Wallace in 2002-2003 grabbed literally 35 percent of his teams TOTAL defensive rebounds and 23+ percent overall which is downright INCREDIBLE. Dwight's career best defensive rebounding percentage is 31.5 percent and total rebound percentage of 21.7.

Bottom line is... Wallace was a better rebounder who played in a much tougher, more physical era with more physically intimidating bigs.


Percentages can be misleading. Look who Ben played with. Dwight's teammates in Orlando(though not the best) were still better than Ben's pre-2004. Their rebounding is very close, but I'd give the slight edge to Dwight.

[IGOTGAME]

Yea so did Ben. Many of these blocks his hand is mid-top box just like Dwight. In general Dwight is the better leaper but when it comes to blocking shots Dwight doesn't get any higher than Ben IMO. Ben was a much quicker leaper who could get off his feet multiple times to get rebounds, tips and blocks.

The only reason Wallace was able to handle much bigger players in his career was DUE to that great athleticism and strength (also had a good wingspan). Also people don't realize Ben admitted he's closer to 6'7 than 6'9 so his strength and athleticism becomes even more impressive.

and apparently, Howard doesn't do this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cxCfBs0yZo

:50 and 1:46. Wallace wasn't getting up for blocks like that. The threat of that imo alters more shots when combined with how agile he is.

[Clippersfan86]

Percentages can be misleading. Look who Ben played with. Dwight's teammates in Orlando(though not the best) were still better than Ben's pre-2004. Their rebounding is very close, but I'd give the slight edge to Dwight.

Yea that is a fair thing to weigh into this but furthest I'm willing to go is that they were equal defensive rebounders. The rest of what I said though isn't as debatable on where Ben is better.

[Clippersfan86]

and apparently, Howard doesn't do this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cxCfBs0yZo

:50 and 1:46. Wallace wasn't getting up for blocks like that. The threat of that imo alters more shots when combined with how agile he is.

It just doesn't make sense to me that one player can alter more shots in the paint yet block quite a bit less. They usually go hand in hand.

[Whoah10115]

Honestly, I think it's clear. Howard's greatness on defense is under-appreciated.



This guy's impact on defense is astonishing. He's the purest anchor I've seen, at least, since David Robinson. If he didn't scare so many people, he'd have 2 more blocks a game. If his perimeter players played any defense he might get 2 more blocks a game.


It's Dwight Howard.

[lilgodfather1]

For defense I take Ben Wallace, but i'm not going to pretend it's not a hairs difference between them. I'm slightly partial to Ben though because he played for the Cavs, but imho Ben is a slightly better defender than Dwight is.

[Rake2204]

and apparently, Howard doesn't do this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cxCfBs0yZo

:50 and 1:46. Wallace wasn't getting up for blocks like that. The threat of that imo alters more shots when combined with how agile he is.Just merely my opinion, but I don't think jumping higher is always directly correlated to number of shots altered or threat delivered. If we were comparing Chris Paul's shot-blocking presence versus Dwight Howard's, I believe I would agree in terms of the additional intimidation and alteration that'd take place. However, when we're looking at two great shot blockers, both of whom went high above the rim for rejections... only one goes slightly more higher, I don't think it's as simple as assuming your claim to be true.

Of course, arguing that Wallace provided more intimidation and/or shot alteration is just as difficult to prove. My point is just, when players drove to the lane and saw Ben Wallace stepping up, they had to be cognizant of his presence. The same goes for Dwight Howard's defense. I just don't think it was ever a player thinking, "Oh noes, I'm even more scared and thus must further alter my shot more than if I were playing Ben Wallace because Dwight Howard can reach 13 feet instead of 12'6''."

They both intimidated and altered more shots than they actually blocked. I think the better argument for amount of shots altered would have more to do with each player's respective foot speed, defensive positioning, recovery, and timing... not so much the difference in maximum reach. If max reach was that big of a difference, I'd think Dwight Howard's block numbers would approach those of Ben Wallace's, but they do not, and I don't think it's because players were just less afraid of Wallace's jumping ability.

[Clippersfan86]

Honestly, I think it's clear. Howard's greatness on defense is under-appreciated.



This guy's impact on defense is astonishing. He's the purest anchor I've seen, at least, since David Robinson. If he didn't scare so many people, he'd have 2 more blocks a game. If his perimeter players played any defense he might get 2 more blocks a game.


It's Dwight Howard.

Um part of the reason he averaged that many blocks to begin with was crappy perimeter defenders letting players slash in to meet Howard in the paint. With better defenders on the perimeter there wouldn't be as big of a demand for him to block or alter shots.

[Whoah10115]

Um part of the reason he averaged that many blocks to begin with was crappy perimeter defenders letting players slash in to meet Howard in the paint. With better defenders on the perimeter there wouldn't be as big of a demand for him to block or alter shots.



No, because a lot of those guys just pull up or restart their offense. Howard has never averaged 3 BPG, because even tho they get past their man they never go at him. When players go at him, they get swatted.


I think Howard is clearly better, but I'll give Wallace credit for versatility, playing passing lanes, and maybe pure help defense, as in doubling in the corner and all that.


But for all the talk of Howard being a great athlete, Howard's positional sense is terrific. His pacing and reading on defense are also all-time.

[Clippersfan86]

No, because a lot of those guys just pull up or restart their offense. Howard has never averaged 3 BPG, because even tho they get past their man they never go at him. When players go at him, they get swatted.


I think Howard is clearly better, but I'll give Wallace credit for man defense, versatility, playing passing lanes, and maybe pure help defense, as in doubling in the corner and all that.


But for all the talk of Howard being a great athlete, Howard's positional sense is terrific. His pacing and reading on defense are also all-time.

Well duh.. of course you'll give a 4 time DPOY winner and 5 time Defensive first team player credit but to act like teams feared attacking the paint a lot more with Howard than Wallace is completely false. Wallace is arguably the most feared shot blocker in NBA history.

[Rake2204]

Well duh.. of course you'll give a 4 time DPOY winner and 5 time Defensive first team player credit but to act like teams feared attacking the paint a lot more with Howard than Wallace is completely false. Wallace is arguably the most feared shot blocker in NBA history.I definitely think, in terms of defensive ability, there's a great argument for Ben Wallace in comparison to Dwight Howard. However, with respect, I personally would not suggest Wallace to be arguably the most feared shot blocker in NBA history. Such suggestions, in my opinion, undermine a lot of the more feasible points that are to be made.

[Whoah10115]

The only players who impacted the defense more in all aspects were Hakeem and Russell. Garnett and Duncan just behind prime Wallace defensively. Better than Ewing, Robinson, Walton, Howard, Wilt and Kareem defensively IMO.




There is absolutely 0 chance that Wallace is as good a defender as David Robinson.


KG is a better defender. Walton, in his prime, was epic. Those guys are easily ahead of Wallace. Kareem is absolutely below all these guys, even in his defensive prime in Milwaukee.

[Clippersfan86]

I definitely think, in terms of defensive ability, there's a great argument for Ben Wallace in comparison to Dwight Howard. However, with respect, I personally would not suggest Wallace to be arguably the most feared shot blocker in NBA history. Such suggestions, in my opinion, undermine a lot of the more feasible points that are to be made.

Well that's just my opinion. There is no way to definitively state one way or another when making a statement like "most feared". I just feel he was a more intimidating shotblocker than Dwight and most other players in NBA history.

[Clippersfan86]

There is absolutely 0 chance that Wallace is as good a defender as David Robinson.


KG is a better defender. Walton, in his prime, was epic. Those guys are easily ahead of Wallace. Kareem is absolutely below all these guys, even in his defensive prime in Milwaukee.

0 chance? Pistons were a significantly more dominant defensive team than the Spurs anchored by Wallace who put up pretty identical steals+blocks+defensive rebounding numbers to Robinson. Defensive resumes.

Robinson:

NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1992)
4

[Whoah10115]

Well duh.. of course you'll give a 4 time DPOY winner and 5 time Defensive first team player credit but to act like teams feared attacking the paint a lot more with Howard than Wallace is completely false. Wallace is arguably the most feared shot blocker in NBA history.



Wallace is not arguably the most feared shot-blocker in NBA history. He's not as good as good or as feared as Mount Mutombo (at least not as far as shot-blocking goes), David Robinson, Bill Russell, Wilt, or even Hakeem.


Hakeem was kind of all over the place with the way he played defense, and he literally contested every shot ever put up (which says a lot about how great a rebounder he was), so his shot-blocking maybe wasn't as feared, as they came from every angle.


Howard eats up floor space like no player I've ever seen.

[Rake2204]

Well that's just my opinion. There is no way to definitively state one way or another when making a statement like "most feared". I just feel he was a more intimidating shotblocker than Dwight and most other players in NBA history.Fair enough. I just figure there's enough substance for this discussion (a lot of which you've alluded) to leave out some opinions like that. It seems to leave the door open for folks to overlook facts and discount your good points due to your hypothetical opinions.

[Clippersfan86]

Fair enough. I just figure there's enough substance for this discussion (a lot of which you've alluded) to leave out some opinions like that. It seems to leave the door open for folks to overlook facts and discount your good points due to your hypothetical opinions.

Thanks for the advice and I do see how it could be a problem. I often times throw in personal opinions with the facts and instead of people seeing the facts they run with my personal opinions they disagree with and derail a thread. Which we don't need :cheers:

[IGOTGAME]

Just merely my opinion, but I don't think jumping higher is always directly correlated to number of shots altered or threat delivered. If we were comparing Chris Paul's shot-blocking presence versus Dwight Howard's, I believe I would agree in terms of the additional intimidation and alteration that'd take place. However, when we're looking at two great shot blockers, both of whom went high above the rim for rejections... only one goes slightly more higher, I don't think it's as simple as assuming your claim to be true.

Of course, arguing that Wallace provided more intimidation and/or shot alteration is just as difficult to prove. My point is just, when players drove to the lane and saw Ben Wallace stepping up, they had to be cognizant of his presence. The same goes for Dwight Howard's defense. I just don't think it was ever a player thinking, "Oh noes, I'm even more scared and thus must further alter my shot more than if I were playing Ben Wallace because Dwight Howard can reach 13 feet instead of 12'6''."

They both intimidated and altered more shots than they actually blocked. I think the better argument for amount of shots altered would have more to do with each player's respective foot speed, defensive positioning, recovery, and timing... not so much the difference in maximum reach. If max reach was that big of a difference, I'd think Dwight Howard's block numbers would approach those of Ben Wallace's, but they do not, and I don't think it's because players were just less afraid of Wallace's jumping ability.

well when someone chooses to go over a shot blocker they have measure him up. There is a big difference shooting a floater over a guy with range like Howard as compared to a guy with range like Wallace.

second bolded. never said that. I simply stated that I believe that he altered more shots.


So Wallace has the more impressive defensive resume, equal or slightly better blocks+d rebounding+steals numbers AND was the anchor of arguably the greatest defense in NBA history. Wallace was also the more versatile defender IMO. You used to be more logical and reasonable but lately you're out of it.

please explain this.

[Whoah10115]

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]0 chance? Pistons were a significantly more dominant defensive team than the Spurs anchored by Wallace who put up pretty identical steals+blocks+defensive rebounding numbers to Robinson. Defensive resumes.

Robinson:

NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1992)
4

[Rubio2Gasol]

Wallace with breathing room.

[Clippersfan86]

Robinson has also led the league in blocks.


And let's not act like Wallace had Hakeem Olajuwon to deal with. Then add Ewing, Mourning, Dikembe, all in their primes.



David Robinson is nearly as good as Hakeem. David Robinson is, for me, the best shot-blocker of the modern era. Some would say Hakeem or Dikembe. Some would say Eaton or even Bol, but neither of those guys dissuaded drivers to the lane like Robinson.

If you want to argue that you feel Robinson is better that's your choice. I don't agree but it's obviously not farfetched. What IS out of line and farfetched is to say Wallace has absolutely NO case at all in a comparison with Robinson defensively. Also Robinson was a 7'0 tall center with great athleticism. Sure the competition was a bit better but Wallace had to contend with prime shaq who was far more difficult to match up with than Hakeem. Wallace did more, with less advantages and that counts for something. Besides nobody with a brain says Wallace>Robinson as a player it's purely defense we are talking about here.

Besides outside of more personal opinions you still didn't explain how a player can have a better defensive resume, put up equal or better defensive numbers AND anchor arguably the greatest defense of all time and have ZERO case against your player. It's beyond illogical to make that statement.

[IGOTGAME]

If you want to argue that you feel Robinson is better that's your choice. I don't agree but it's obviously not farfetched. What IS out of line and farfetched is to say Wallace has absolutely NO case at all in a comparison with Robinson. Also Robinson was a 7'0 tall center with great athleticism. Sure the competition was a bit better but Wallace had to contend with prime shaq who was far more difficult to match up with than Hakeem. Wallace did more, with less advantages and that counts for something.

Besides outside of more personal opinions you still didn't explain how a player can have a better defensive resume, put up equal or better defensive numbers AND anchor arguably the greatest defense of all time and have ZERO case against your player. It's beyond illogical to make that statement.

wth, defensive resume? That has everything to do with who else is in the league at the time. Plus, the DPOY is voted on by the media so it loses weight their as well. The fact that he played on the Pistons doesn't make him better than someone who didn't. Robinson makes those Pistons teams better defensively.

Lastly, you said that Wallace was an equal or better shotblocker. Robinson averaged 3 blocks per game over his career. Wallace got over 3 blocks 3 times. Robinson has a season at 4.5, 2 seasons at 3.9 and several over 3. He was a freak athlete on the pick and roll and was feared by the entire league.

Robinson was a 7 foot athletic freak on defense. He had the speed of a guard and great leaping ability and timing. Just by his height and length he was able to do things Wallace couldn't. And this is disregarding his all time instincts and timing.

[Clippersfan86]

I never flat out called Wallace a better shotblocker than Robinson and if I did, It was a mistake. What I do remember saying is that he was a better shotblocker than Howard and on nearly identical to Robinson when you combine defensive rebounds, blocks and steals prime vs prime.

I agree that most of the times awards are a popularity contest but an unknown, undrafted player winning as many DPOY awards as anybody else in NBA history and racking up these first teams as a player who's not a superstar or a big scorer is even MORE impressive IMO. It means despite not being as well known or valued league wide he STILL got this recognition.

BTW people need to stop acting like the early-mid 00's had a bunch of scrub centers.

Prime Shaq
Yao Ming
Tim Duncan (played his entire prime at center in the 00's)
Marcus Camby
Vlade
Sabonis
Big Z
Brad Miller
Jermaine O'Neil (Don't forget he was a 20, 10 and 2.5 blocks player with great D for two years).
D12


Prime Shaq, Yao and Duncan would dominate any era and two of these guys are top 15 players all time. Yao at his peak was one of the best all around centers ever and had it not been for injuries would have dominated for a long time. Camby won DPOY and was a fantastic defensive center. Jermaine O'Neil was an all star and 20 and 10 player for a couple seasons AND a great defender. Brad Miller, Big Z and Sabonis were all older vets but were still very solid and competitive centers who all made all star teams after 00'.

[lakerspng]

Ben Wallace's ability to guard Shaq effectively by himself in the '04 Finals, is what allowed the rest of the Pistons to key in so much on Kobe, and ultimately was one of the main contributing factors to them winning the championship. No one else could have done what he did defensively and on the boards in that series against Shaq. My vote goes to Big Ben.

[Whoah10115]

If you want to argue that you feel Robinson is better that's your choice. I don't agree but it's obviously not farfetched. What IS out of line and farfetched is to say Wallace has absolutely NO case at all in a comparison with Robinson defensively. Also Robinson was a 7'0 tall center with great athleticism. Sure the competition was a bit better but Wallace had to contend with prime shaq who was far more difficult to match up with than Hakeem. Wallace did more, with less advantages and that counts for something. Besides nobody with a brain says Wallace>Robinson as a player it's purely defense we are talking about here.

Besides outside of more personal opinions you still didn't explain how a player can have a better defensive resume, put up equal or better defensive numbers AND anchor arguably the greatest defense of all time and have ZERO case against your player. It's beyond illogical to make that statement.




I'm not gonna let Ben's height have any effect on his ranking.


But it is far-fetched. Robinson is the best shot-blocker of his era. Wallace's career high is equal to Robinson's career average before the back injury. As was just said, Robinson was an incredible defender on the pick n' roll. He anchored much more than Wallace. Robinson is one of the great examples of what an anchor is. He was a better man defender and more versatile than Wallace. He was quicker, faster, more athletic, had better instincts, played better help-side defense.


Robinson could switch onto a guard much better than Wallace could. Wallace was a true zone defender, who had great footwork, instincts, and whose greatest quality was his hustle nature. You said Wallace averaged 2 steals a game. He did not, but Robinson averaged 2.3 one year, tho I think Wallace had like 1.7 or 1.8 a couple times.


Those Pistons are amongst the greatest defenses ever. Are they as good as the 99 Spurs? Up for debate, tho I would take the Spurs. And even tho that David Robinson (even as a defender) wasn't as great as the younger one, he led them and was the best defender on the team (ahead of Duncan). If we're talking primes, then Robinson's defensive prime is greater.

[Clippersfan86]

I'm not gonna let Ben's height have any effect on his ranking.


But it is far-fetched. Robinson is the best shot-blocker of his era. Wallace's career high is equal to Robinson's career average before the back injury. As was just said, Robinson was an incredible defender on the pick n' roll. He anchored much more than Wallace. Robinson is one of the great examples of what an anchor is. He was a better man defender and more versatile than Wallace. He was quicker, faster, more athletic, had better instincts, played better help-side defense.


Robinson could switch onto a guard much better than Wallace could. Wallace was a true zone defender, who had great footwork, instincts, and whose greatest quality was his hustle nature. You said Wallace averaged 2 steals a game. He did not, but Robinson averaged 2.3 one year, tho I think Wallace had like 1.7 or 1.8 a couple times.


Those Pistons are amongst the greatest defenses ever. Are they as good as the 99 Spurs? Up for debate, tho I would take the Spurs. And even tho that David Robinson (even as a defender) wasn't as great as the younger one, he led them and was the best defender on the team (ahead of Duncan). If we're talking primes, then Robinson's defensive prime is greater.

:facepalm :roll: . So yet another ridiculous claim. You feel the 99 Spurs who had a pretty light ride to the finals in the lockout year vs the undersized Knicks were a better defensive team than the freaking 04 Pistons!?:biggums: :banghead:.

[Bigsmoke]

Hard to say.

Dwight himself made the Magic into a defensive powerhouse so i might go with him.

[Whoah10115]

:facepalm :roll: . So yet another ridiculous claim. You feel the 99 Spurs who had a pretty light ride to the finals in the lockout year vs the undersized Knicks were a better defensive team than the freaking 04 Pistons!?:biggums: :banghead:.



Hmmm, you're talking about making personal opinions. I didn't know the 99 Spurs were understood to be so far below, defensively, than the 2004 Pistons.



I did know that Ben Wallace was clearly not as good a defender as David Robinson tho.

[Clippersfan86]

Hmmm, you're talking about making personal opinions. I didn't know the 99 Spurs were understood to be so far below, defensively, than the 2004 Pistons.



I did know that Ben Wallace was clearly not as good a defender as David Robinson tho.

Okay.... well it IS farfetched to claim that the 99 Spurs were on par or better than the 04 Pistons defensively and that's not an opinion because the gap is pretty huge.

[Whoah10115]

Okay.... well it IS farfetched to claim that the 99 Spurs were on par or better than the 04 Pistons defensively and that's not an opinion because the gap is pretty huge.



But based on what? What makes the gap huge? Even if Wallace was a better defender than that version of Robinson, who is as good a defender as Tim Duncan? Those two were monstrous. The gap is a lot closer than the one between Robinson and Wallace.

[Clippersfan86]

But based on what? What makes the gap huge? Even if Wallace was a better defender than that version of Robinson, who is as good a defender as Tim Duncan? Those two were monstrous. The gap is a lot closer than the one between Robinson and Wallace.

Well... would you argue that the 99 Spurs could be the GOAT all time defense? Because many have made the case for the 04 Pistons. The big gap is the Pistons perimeter defense with Prince+Billups and the COMBINATION of Wallace+Wallace>>>>>Robinson+Duncan at that time both synergy wise and production wise. Both Wallace's were elite post defenders, Robinson was no longer an elite defender and Duncan while a great defender wasn't in his prime or anything yet.

[Whoah10115]

Well... would you argue that the 99 Spurs could be the GOAT all time defense? Because many have made the case for the 04 Pistons. The big gap is the Pistons perimeter defense with Prince+Billups and the COMBINATION of Wallace+Wallace>>>>>Robinson+Duncan at that time both synergy wise and production wise. Both Wallace's were elite post defenders, Robinson was no longer an elite defender and Duncan while a great defender wasn't in his prime or anything yet.



Duncan was close, but I hear what you're saying. And maybe I'm overstating the Spurs defense a bit. But while I do like that Pistons team, I think they get a bit overrated. I don't think they're the best defense ever. I think the recent Celtics are better. I don't think that the Pistons are as good as the Bulls in the 90's or the Knicks in the 90's. And while the older Pistons were filthy, I do think they had better defenders.

[Clippersfan86]

Duncan was close, but I hear what you're saying. And maybe I'm overstating the Spurs defense a bit. But while I do like that Pistons team, I think they get a bit overrated. I don't think they're the best defense ever. I think the recent Celtics are better. I don't think that the Pistons are as good as the Bulls in the 90's or the Knicks in the 90's. And while the older Pistons were filthy, I do think they had better defenders.

08 Celtics are also an all time great defense as are some of the Knicks teams. Just saying the Spurs of 99 were very good but not an all time great defensive team such as Bulls, Pistons, Celtics.

[chazzy]

The 99 Spurs were the #1 defensive team that year and had a higher DRTG than the 04 Pistons, for what it's worth. The DRTG number is a little misleading because offenses weren't as sharp after the lockout.

[Rake2204]

well when someone chooses to go over a shot blocker they have measure him up. There is a big difference shooting a floater over a guy with range like Howard as compared to a guy with range like Wallace.
I'd actually dispute how big of a difference there would be between the two in terms of shot alterations based on max reach (as opposed to aforementioned shot alterations based on positioning, footwork, awareness, etc.). I'd venture to say they both elevate high enough to eliminate normal shots and layups if they're in position while also disrupting or altering many other shots.

The only difference I'd really see would occur on floaters and in that case, I'm not sure how often it plays a role. Even then, I'm not sure I'd alter my floater over Howard anymore than I would over Wallace. I'd just have the knowledge knowing that Howard might be able to get mine a little bit of a higher peak than Ben might. Otherwise, again, max reach is but a small portion of disrupting or altering shots.

[Clippersfan86]

The 99 Spurs were the #1 defensive team that year and had a higher DRTG than the 04 Pistons, for what it's worth. The DRTG number is a little misleading because offenses weren't as sharp after the lockout.

I watched them and they weren't as dominant but that IS something interesting that I didn't know (the DRTG number they had). Great D, not all time great is what I think when talking about the Spurs. Regardless though this Robinson vs Wallace thing has derailed the main topic a bit.