The MYTH that Dirk had no help throughout his career

[IllegalD]

Quality players Dirk has played with throughout his career:

Future Hall of Famers:

Steve Nash
Jason Kidd

All-Star/ All-Star Level Players:

Steve Nash
Michael Finley
Antawn Jamison
Josh Howard
Tyson Chandler
Caron Butler
Shawn Marion
Jason Terry
Jason Kidd
Devin Harris
Antoine Walker
Lamar Odom
Jerry Stackhouse
Nick Van Exel
Juwan Howard

Seasons Dirk/Mavs could've won Championships but didn't:

These seasons Dirk and the Mavericks had legitimate chances to win it all but didn't for various reasons (bad luck, injuries, unlucky matchups, etc.)

2002-2003 Season: My favorite version of the Dirk-era Mavs. The "original" Big 3 for a generation of fans at their peak. Nash, Finley, Dirk. Nick Van Exel clutch off the bench. Rounded out with a solid bench of gritty and veteran players like Adrian Griffin, Walt "The Wizard" Williams, Najera, Raef LaFrentz. The team's chances fell apart when Dirk got injured in the playoffs.

2005-2006 Season: The season it all seemed to finally click for Dirk as far as him learning how to be "the man" and taking over in crunch-time. Mavs up 13, 6 minutes away from going up 3-0 in the NBA Finals against the Heat. An aggressive Wade, some generous whistles, and Dirk going back to settling for jumpers instead of taking hard to the rim like he had been, Mavs collapse, loose the series.

2006-2007 Season: Dirk's MVP Season. 67-Win Mavs. They draw the worst possible matchup they could've drawn in the first round. They're kryptonite, the Golden State Warriors. 8th seeded Warriors beat the 1st seeded Mavs in arguably the biggest upset in NBA playoffs history.

A lucky bounce here, a different playoff matchup there, and Dirk could potentially have up to 4 rings, and his legacy would be much different.

[wally_world]

Misleading title, i thought you were gonna bash on Dirk for not winning more titles.

The early 00s Mavs were a really talented and fun bunch to watch, but pure run and gun offense doesnt win championships. That team literally played no defense. It is easily one of my fav teams to watch tho.

The Finals vs the Heat was b/s, too many bad calls. They should've had a great shot to win if not for the refs.

The series against the Warriors is interesting. Granted GSW was their kryptonite, and they are a really talented team for an 8th seed, it was no excuse to lose. I expected it to be a tough 7 game series but Mavs wound up losing 4-2 with some blowouts. This hurts Dirk's legacy quite a bit.

The only team Dirk had that was STACKED was the early 00s with Nash/Finley/NVE etc IMO. Josh Howard was their 2nd best player in the finals vs the Heat, and he won the chip with a very mediocre bunch 2 seasons ago.

[IllegalD]

Misleading title, i thought you were gonna bash on Dirk for not winning more titles.

:confusedshrug:

How is the title misleading? The title states that its a myth that Dirk has had little-to-no help throughout his career and in it I list quality players that Dirk has played with throughout his career, and seasons where he had good enough casts/chances to win it all. That you expected me to bash Dirk in the thread has little to do with my thread title and more to do with your own assumptions.


The early 00s Mavs were a really talented and fun bunch to watch, but pure run and gun offense doesnt win championships. That team literally played no defense. It is easily one of my fav teams to watch tho.

Pure Run-&-Gun offense doesn't generally win NBA championships, but that doesn't mean it can't. Just because something isn't the "norm" doesn't mean it can't happen. The 2004 Pistons and the 2011 Mavs aren't the "norm" for teams that win championships, but they won. The 2003 Mavs had a legit shot at winning it all 'cause they were, as you said, stacked, until their best player (Dirk) got injured. Steve Nash's Suns, who were even more pure Run-&-Gun than his Mavs teams had legit shots to win it be it not for similar runs of "bad luck" (injuries to Joe Johnson, Amare. Robert Horry hip-checking Nash into the scorer's table, causing suspensions to Amare, etc.)


The Finals vs the Heat was b/s, too many bad calls. They should've had a great shot to win if not for the refs.

The refs gave the Heat/Wade many favorable calls, but Dirk's play dropped considerably in the Finals compared to how he had been playing leading up to them. He stopped doing what got him there, attacking the rim, and started settling for jumpers again.


The only team Dirk had that was STACKED was the early 00s with Nash/Finley/NVE etc IMO. Josh Howard was their 2nd best player in the finals vs the Heat, and he won the chip with a very mediocre bunch 2 seasons ago.

Josh Howard was an all-star the season after, and was a 17 and 7 player with good defense. That is comparable to what other good second bananas have given their championship teams. The 2011 Mavs were not a "mediocre bunch": Jason Kidd (future HOF, one year removed from being an All-star, still averaging 8 assists per game), Shawn Marion (multiple all-star, elite rebounder, defender), Jason Terry (all-star level, 18 PPG scorer, one of the best 6th men in the game), Tyson Chandler (DPOY winner, 2nd best defensive anchor in the league). One of the best passing teams of the last decade (up there with the 2002 Kings and the 2012 Spurs)

[Kblaze8855]

There are like 40 people on earth who ever said Dirk has had no help and all of them are from Texas or Germany.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Oh look another bashing Dirk thread, how original.

[IllegalD]

Oh look another bashing Dirk thread, how original.

Where do I bash Dirk?

:confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

There are like 40 people on earth who ever said Dirk has had no help and all of them are from Texas or Germany.

There is a huge difference between saying..."no help"...and not championship caliber help that many of the all time greats had.

Dirk played on at most 4 teams capable of winning a title. He won one. Made the finals another time. Got hurt in the WCF another. And he and his team choked / played horrible / played a nightmare matchup in the other.

And with all of that. Not once did Dirk have the best team in the league around him or another truly elite 2nd guy or coach.

People make the "help" comments when we have to hear about Dirk only having 1 ring. When really only maybe a handful of players in the history of the game could have won a title...or more than 1. How many does Duncan win? Maybe 2 or 3. Same with Shaq....at most. It's not like he had 10 plus championship teams the way a lot of other great players did that people often compare him to in ring count.

[noosaman]

If Dirk has had a lot of help then every great player to win a title played on an incredibly stacked team.

JJ freaking Barea was his 2nd/3rd option in several games, for crying out loud.

[Kblaze8855]

It's not like he had 10 plus championship teams the way a lot of other great players did that people often compare him to in ring count.

So...Larry Bird? who else could you possibly mean? I dont assume you mean shaq...nobody talks about Shaq vs dirk. Duncan has not had even one team that just...should have won off sheer talent. Cant be KG. Often compared to dirk...you wouldnt say hes had 10 teams that should have won.

Magic? who compares Magic to Dirk? Im guessing not him....

so...Bird vs dirk? That what youre getting at?

[Jacks3]

If his help was so great than why have they collapsed whenever hes on the bench for the last 12 seasons? Every single year. They're in the negative.

:confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

So...Larry Bird? who else could you possibly mean? I dont assume you mean shaq...nobody talks about Shaq vs dirk. Duncan has not had even one team that just...should have won off sheer talent. Cant be KG. Often compared to dirk...you wouldnt say hes had 10 teams that should have won.

Magic? who compares Magic to Dirk? Im guessing not him....

so...Bird vs dirk? That what youre getting at?

Every single other player that people rank over Dirk. The knock on him was that he couldn't win with these so called "great teams"...and it's of course a notion we've blown out of the water time and time again.

My point is that rarely...if ever do teams win with what Dirk has had throughout his career. Yes, Duncan did in some regards. But even then Duncan definitely had more help and far better coaching. No other player that I can really think of was rattling off titles with similar help to what Dirk had. That is the point.

So in a thread like this. Yes, it is a myth that dirk had "NO" help. He obviously had very good teams as his teams won over 50 11 straight years (been done 3 or 4 times in the history of the NBA), made the finals twice, the wcf 3 times, won a title, and won 67 games one year. You don't get those results by not having quality help.

But if the jump is from quality help to championship help....well then that is just wrong and the history of the league proves that quite clearly.

[Kblaze8855]

Well when you say:

"It's not like he had 10 plus championship teams the way a lot of other great players did that people often compare him to in ring count."

I assumed you meant someone who had...10 plus championship level teams who gets compared to Dirk. Not...everyone ranked over Dirk. There might be like....5 people ever....to have teams on the level you seem to mean and have them for that long. I assumed you meant one of them.

[Mr Know It All]

I posted this in another thread, so allow me to post it again. Dirk had quality teammates through many of his years, but he never had the help that other greats did during his era. That is, he never had another All-NBA teammate and very few All-star teammates after Nash left (and even Nash was not near the player in Dallas he became in Phoenix.

Let's see the past champions and finalists and see how All-NBAers correlate to success:

2012 Finals:

Heat: 2 All-NBAers (Lebron, Wade), 3 All-Stars (Lebron, Wade, Bosh)

Thunder: 2 All-NBAers (Durant, Westbrook), 2 All-Stars (Durant, Westbrook)

2011 Finals:

Heat: 2 All-NBAers (Lebron, Wade), 3 All-Stars (Lebron, Wade, Bosh)

Mavericks: 1 All-NBAer (Dirk), 1 All-star (Dirk)

2010 Finals:

Celtics: 0 All-NBAers, 3 All-Stars (Rondo, Pierce, Garnett)

Lakers: 2 All-NBAers (Kobe, Gasol), 2 All-Stars (Kobe, Gasol)

2009 Finals:

Magic: 1 All-NBAers (Dwight), 1 All-star (Dwight)

Lakers: 2 All-NBAers (Kobe, Gasol), 2 All-stars (Kobe, Gasol)

2008 Finals:

Celtics: 2 All-NBAers (Garnett, Pierce), 3 All-Stars (Garnett, Pierce, Allen)

Lakers: 1 All-NBAer (Kobe), 1 All-Star (Kobe)

2007 Finals:

Cavaliers: 1 All-NBAer (Lebron), 1 All-Star (Lebron)

Spurs: 1 All-NBAer (Duncan), 2 All-Stars (Duncan, Parker)

2006 Finals:

Heat: 2-All NBAers (Wade, Shaq), 2 All-Stars (Wade, Shaq)

Mavericks: 1 All-NBAer (Dirk), 1 All-Star (Dirk)

The only other two players to reach a finals being the only all-star and all-NBA player are Kobe, Dwight and Lebron, and they both lost (one was swept, other lost in 5 games). Pre-2006 the trend continues, and the 2011 Mavericks are the only championship team this decade to win with only 1 All NBA player (Dirk) and 1 All-Star (Dirk) other than the Pistons (whose remarkable team defense won them the ship, and they got recognition the next year by sending multiple all-stars that people overlooked).

Acting like Dirk has had terrible teammates would be a fallacy, but also acting like he has had the elite help that his other title winning peers have had (Kobe, Lebron, Duncan, Garnett/Pierce). So though Cuban and Nelson have always put talent around Dirk, in many cases they have let him down and not shown up during his 1st round problems (only in 2007 was the loss truly on Dirk).

As others have mentioned, the statistics also show how important Dirk is to his team's success. His +/- when in any given unit, and their record without him.

So it's not exactly a myth, but can be overstated by many individuals. Still, it's clear during his prime he had NO All-NBA help and minimal All-Star help (Howard in 2007 and Kidd in 2010, both replacements for injured players).

[ThatCoolKid]

I posted this in another thread, so allow me to post it again. Dirk had quality teammates through many of his years, but he never had the help that other greats did during his era. That is, he never had another All-NBA teammate and very few All-star teammates after Nash left (and even Nash was not near the player in Dallas he became in Phoenix.

Let's see the past champions and finalists and see how All-NBAers correlate to success:

2012 Finals:

Heat: 2 All-NBAers (Lebron, Wade), 3 All-Stars (Lebron, Wade, Bosh)

Thunder: 2 All-NBAers (Durant, Westbrook), 2 All-Stars (Durant, Westbrook)

2011 Finals:

Heat: 2 All-NBAers (Lebron, Wade), 3 All-Stars (Lebron, Wade, Bosh)

Mavericks: 1 All-NBAer (Dirk), 1 All-star (Dirk)

2010 Finals:

Celtics: 0 All-NBAers, 3 All-Stars (Rondo, Pierce, Garnett)

Lakers: 2 All-NBAers (Kobe, Gasol), 2 All-Stars (Kobe, Gasol)

2009 Finals:

Magic: 1 All-NBAers (Dwight), 1 All-star (Dwight)

Lakers: 2 All-NBAers (Kobe, Gasol), 2 All-stars (Kobe, Gasol)

2008 Finals:

Celtics: 2 All-NBAers (Garnett, Pierce), 3 All-Stars (Garnett, Pierce, Allen)

Lakers: 1 All-NBAer (Kobe), 1 All-Star (Kobe)

2007 Finals:

Cavaliers: 1 All-NBAer (Lebron), 1 All-Star (Lebron)

Spurs: 1 All-NBAer (Duncan), 2 All-Stars (Duncan, Parker)

2006 Finals:

Heat: 2-All NBAers (Wade, Shaq), 2 All-Stars (Wade, Shaq)

Mavericks: 1 All-NBAer (Dirk), 1 All-Star (Dirk)

The only other two players to reach a finals being the only all-star and all-NBA player are Kobe and Lebron, and they both lost (one was swept). Pre-2006 the trend continues, and the 2011 Mavericks are the only championship team this decade to win with only 1 All NBA player (Dirk) and 1 All-Star (Dirk) other than the Pistons (whose remarkable team defense won them the ship, and they got recognition the next year by sending multiple all-stars that people overlooked).

Acting like Dirk has had terrible teammates would be a fallacy, but also acting like he has had the elite help that his other title winning peers have had (Kobe, Lebron, Duncan, Garnett/Pierce). So though Cuban and Nelson have always put talent around Dirk, in many cases they have let him down and not shown up during his 1st round problems (only in 2007 was the loss truly on Dirk).

As others have mentioned, the statistics also show how important Dirk is to his team's success. His +/- when in any given unit, and their record without him.

So it's not exactly a myth, but can be overstated by many individuals. Still, it's clear during his prime he had NO All-NBA help and minimal All-Star help (Howard in 2007 and Kidd in 2010, both replacements for injured players).

From your list, Dwight also made the finals being the only All-NBA player or All-star.

[guy]

The idea that certain players won more just cause they had better teammates is such a black and white and flawed argument. It is not that simple at all and completely ignores how certain players are easier to build around. People have brought up Duncan and Bird. If Duncan or Bird started with the Mavs in 99 instead of Dirk, they most likely aren't playing on the exact same teams to present day. In fact, they are probably playing on better teams, because those two are easier to build around. And even if they were playing on the same teams, they are still probably more successful just cause they are better and more impactful players due to their more dominant play which is a combination of their greater all around play while basically being a slightly worse, equal, or better at everything Dirk is great at. Dirk in some ways is an easy and hard player to build around. He's easy because him flourishing doesn't really get in the way of his teammates and his durability/longevity which gives his team alot more chances and trial and error to get it "right", which IMO is what basically happened in 2011. He's hard because he's only a great scorer and rebounder (and he's really not that great of a rebounder), while not being much of a playmaker or defender at all. Duncan and Bird are just easier players to build around because they allow their teammates to flourish and don't get in the way, while basically being just as good or better then Dirk at pretty much everything.

[Mr Know It All]

The idea that certain players won more just cause they had better teammates is such a black and white and flawed argument. It is not that simple at all and completely ignores how certain players are easier to build around. People have brought up Duncan and Bird. If Duncan or Bird started with the Mavs in 99 instead of Dirk, they most likely aren't playing on the exact same teams to present day. In fact, they are probably playing on better teams, because those two are easier to build around. And even if they were playing on the same teams, they are still probably more successful just cause they are better and more impactful players due to their more dominant play which is a combination of their greater all around play while basically being a slightly worse, equal, or better at everything Dirk is great at. Dirk in some ways is an easy and hard player to build around. He's easy because him flourishing doesn't really get in the way of his teammates and his durability/longevity which gives his team alot more chances and trial and error to get it "right", which IMO is what basically happened in 2011. He's hard because he's only a great scorer and rebounder (and he's really not that great of a rebounder), while not being much of a playmaker or defender at all. Duncan and Bird are just easier players to build around because they allow their teammates to flourish and don't get in the way, while basically being just as good or better then Dirk at pretty much everything.

How was Dirk hard to build around? The best center he played with until Tyson was Erick Dampier. His first two coaches when he had success either paid no attention to defense (Don Nelson) or were completely inept when it came to adjustments and late game situations (Avery Johnson).

The Spurs have continued to have great success after Duncan has been past his prime (since about 2007) because of their superior coaching and because their management is the best in the league. Ginobli and Parker are quite clearly better than anyone Dirk has played with since 2003, it's not even an argument. Saying "well he's hard to build around" is complete bogus. He's led his teams to 10+ 50 win seasons and he's actually one of the premier players in the league when it comes to drawing attention and making teammates better. So I don't know what you're spewing when you act like he's a one dimensional scorer.

Even Cuban has admitted that they have no been able to put an elite player beside Dirk to give him some help. The fact that he has been through so much "trial and error" as you put it and still manages to pump out contenders only further speaks to his tremendous impact as a player. Problem is, in the playoffs, where it is all about matchups, being outclassed at every position other than PF can be a weakness during playoff runs.

As for more dominant play, Dirk has always been dominant statistically, so again you don't know what you are talking about. Consistently top 10 in PER (leading in 2006 and 2007 seasons, as well as win shares and wins produced), statistics that are exclusive to elite players in the past decade and beyond (Lebron, Chris Paul, Kevin Garnett, Shaquille O'Neal, etc.)

[dunksby]

Dirk> Garnett get over it.

[Mr Know It All]

Only on ISH do you lose a green bar for posting facts about a player.:roll:

[MiamiThrice]

Future Hall of Famers:

Steve Nash
Jason Kidd


So Kidd and Nash are going to the hall of fame based on what they did in Dallas? Take the Dallas stint out of both of their careers and their stlil hall of famers. Nash was a borderline all-star and Kidd was old as ****.


All-Star/ All-Star Level Players:

Steve Nash
Michael Finley
Antawn Jamison
Josh Howard
Tyson Chandler
Caron Butler
Shawn Marion
Jason Terry
Jason Kidd
Devin Harris
Antoine Walker
Lamar Odom
Jerry Stackhouse
Nick Van Exel
Juwan Howard


Which of these players actually made an all-star team since Dirk himself emerged as an all-star in 2002? Heres the list

Jason Kidd(2010)
Josh Howard(2007)
Nash(03,02)

Now throughout his decade of all-star play Dirk has played with just 4 combined all-stars during that entire decade. Josh Howard shouldn't even count really because he was included as an injury replacement just because of Dallas's record alone. He was a Mo Williams all-star.

Kidd was averaging 10.2 PPG on 9.1 APG while shooting 42% from the field. Far from an all-star player as well, he made it on name alone.

Nash was his best teammate, but he wasn't the MVP canditate people know him for today.

I dare you to find any all-time great player that played with just 4 all-stars during his time as an all-star and was able to lead a team to a championship. I'll wait.

[guy]

How was Dirk hard to build around? The best center he played with until Tyson was Erick Dampier. His first two coaches when he had success either paid no attention to defense (Don Nelson) or were completely inept when it came to adjustments and late game situations (Avery Johnson).

The Spurs have continued to have great success after Duncan has been past his prime (since about 2007) because of their superior coaching and because their management is the best in the league. Ginobli and Parker are quite clearly better than anyone Dirk has played with since 2003, it's not even an argument. Saying "well he's hard to build around" is complete bogus. He's led his teams to 10+ 50 win seasons and he's actually one of the premier players in the league when it comes to drawing attention and making teammates better. So I don't know what you're spewing when you act like he's a one dimensional scorer.

Even Cuban has admitted that they have no been able to put an elite player beside Dirk to give him some help. The fact that he has been through so much "trial and error" as you put it and still manages to pump out contenders only further speaks to his tremendous impact as a player. Problem is, in the playoffs, where it is all about matchups, being outclassed at every position other than PF can be a weakness during playoff runs.

As for more dominant play, Dirk has always been dominant statistically, so again you don't know what you are talking about. Consistently top 10 in PER (leading in 2006 and 2007 seasons, as well as win shares and wins produced), statistics that are exclusive to elite players in the past decade and beyond (Lebron, Chris Paul, Kevin Garnett, Shaquille O'Neal, etc.)

What do you expect Cuban to do? Blame it on Dirk?

I didn't mean he was hard to build around in an absolute sense. I meant relatively harder then other players that are ranked ahead of him such as Duncan and Bird and pretty much every other top 10 player of all-time and some others as well. Duncan was able to win titles as clearly his team's best scorer, rebounder, and defender, sometimes all at the same time. Bird was able to win as clearly his team's best scorer, rebounder, and passer/playmakers, sometimes all at the same time. Could Dirk do something like that? Doesn't seem so, which means he needs certain players around him that could plug more holes that he can't himself.

Obviously building around him results in a ton of success. Just not as much as certain other players. Its not a knock on him. That doesn't mean there's alot of better players to build around then him, cause the NBA is a league where each era's championships are dominated by like 1-2 superstar players (except the 70s). And my point wasn't supposed to be only directed at Dirk. A ton of other players get this same treatment such as Barkley, Malone, Drexler, Nique, Miller, Pierce, Carter, Iverson, Nash, etc where they act like the only difference in success between them and the greatest of the greats is their teams, ignoring that the type of team they have around them has alot to do with that specific centerpiece.

[Cone]

This guy actually put Lamar Odom on the list. That proves enough that OP is retarded.

[DMAVS41]

The idea that certain players won more just cause they had better teammates is such a black and white and flawed argument. It is not that simple at all and completely ignores how certain players are easier to build around. People have brought up Duncan and Bird. If Duncan or Bird started with the Mavs in 99 instead of Dirk, they most likely aren't playing on the exact same teams to present day. In fact, they are probably playing on better teams, because those two are easier to build around. And even if they were playing on the same teams, they are still probably more successful just cause they are better and more impactful players due to their more dominant play which is a combination of their greater all around play while basically being a slightly worse, equal, or better at everything Dirk is great at. Dirk in some ways is an easy and hard player to build around. He's easy because him flourishing doesn't really get in the way of his teammates and his durability/longevity which gives his team alot more chances and trial and error to get it "right", which IMO is what basically happened in 2011. He's hard because he's only a great scorer and rebounder (and he's really not that great of a rebounder), while not being much of a playmaker or defender at all. Duncan and Bird are just easier players to build around because they allow their teammates to flourish and don't get in the way, while basically being just as good or better then Dirk at pretty much everything.


Kind of a flawed analysis in my opinion. Duncan and Bird were better players, but that really doesn't mean it is easier to put better players around them. Would Duncan have won more with the likes of what Dirk played with? Sure, but that has more to do with his style of play and him being better. Would Bird have? Not so sure about that at all.

Duncan being "easier to build around" did not make Parker and Manu better players than pretty much everyone Dirk has ever played with. Pop being a far better coach than any coach Dirk had had virtually nothing to do with Duncan. If the 06 Mavs had Pop instead of Avery...a title would have been a lock.

These are the exact comments I'm talking about. It would make a lot more sense if Dirk had the all nba type players pretty much needed for winning titles. But he didn't. He never got that...and saying that Dirk didn't have all nba help throughout his career was his fault is silly.

Here is an example. Shaq getting to play with Kobe and Wade. It had nothing to do with Shaq. It had everything to do with the situations he found himself in throughout his career. Dirk not getting to play with a Kobe or Wade or even a Ray Allen or Paul Pierce type player was not his fault. He found himself rebuilding one of the worst franchises in sports and for some reason his owner/gm could never get a 2nd star in during Dirk's prime. If Dirk happened to play on the Lakers....none of this would have been a problem and if you put a guy like KG or someone on the Mavs instead of Dirk...you'd be sitting here saying that Dirk was "easier to build around"...etc. Just not the way it went down at all.

[brain drain]

What do you expect Cuban to do? Blame it on Dirk?

I didn't mean he was hard to build around in an absolute sense. I meant relatively harder then other players that are ranked ahead of him such as Duncan and Bird and pretty much every other top 10 player of all-time and some others as well. Duncan was able to win titles as clearly his team's best scorer, rebounder, and defender, sometimes all at the same time. Bird was able to win as clearly his team's best scorer, rebounder, and passer/playmakers, sometimes all at the same time. Could Dirk do something like that? Doesn't seem so, which means he needs certain players around him that could plug more holes that he can't himself.

Dirk is far from one-dimensional. He used to be the leading rebounder and scorer for his teams (averaging something like 25 and 12 in the playoffs) for a damn long time. On top of that, he demanded tons of attention which lead to a lot ot open looks for his teammates which is the main reason why his teams had so much success.

I think one of the reasons why Dirk's often rated comparatively low and why people say he doesn't make his teammates better and stuff like that is that one of the main advantages he brings to the table - providing spacing for his team - doesn't show up in stat sheets.

If "spacing provided" was a statistical category, the whole discussion about Dirk would look different. Because it isn't (and because Dirk's other top aspect, total efficiency over 2s 3s and fts as measured in TS% is an advanced stat that most people don't care to look up) people compare him to guys like Garnett who are better at filling up the raw stat sheet and conclude that Garnett must be a much better player who has way more facets to his game, does more for his teammates (because of the assists) etc etc.
Which also leads them to the conclusion that the absolutely only reason why Dirk had as much or more success must have been better teammates.

And which is a completely myopic way of looking at Dirk. Just take a look at those 2005-06 and 2006-07 Dallas teams and ask yourself how on earth these teams were supposed to win 60 and 67 games and make it to the finals once. If Dirk were just another 25ppg scorer with not much more to his game, that simply doesn't happen.

[DMAVS41]

So Kidd and Nash are going to the hall of fame based on what they did in Dallas? Take the Dallas stint out of both of their careers and their stlil hall of famers. Nash was a borderline all-star and Kidd was old as ****.


Which of these players actually made an all-star team since Dirk himself emerged as an all-star in 2002? Heres the list

Jason Kidd(2010)
Josh Howard(2007)
Nash(03,02)

Now throughout his decade of all-star play Dirk has played with just 4 combined all-stars during that entire decade. Josh Howard shouldn't even count really because he was included as an injury replacement just because of Dallas's record alone. He was a Mo Williams all-star.

Kidd was averaging 10.2 PPG on 9.1 APG while shooting 42% from the field. Far from an all-star player as well, he made it on name alone.

Nash was his best teammate, but he wasn't the MVP canditate people know him for today.

I dare you to find any all-time great player that played with just 4 all-stars during his time as an all-star and was able to lead a team to a championship. I'll wait.


This. Hilarious. Josh Howard and old Kidd...LOL. And again, the 03 team was awesome. Easily could have won it all if Dirk didn't get hurt...and that really was the first year Nash was great.

[iamgine]

What do you expect Cuban to do? Blame it on Dirk?

I didn't mean he was hard to build around in an absolute sense. I meant relatively harder then other players that are ranked ahead of him such as Duncan and Bird and pretty much every other top 10 player of all-time and some others as well. Duncan was able to win titles as clearly his team's best scorer, rebounder, and defender, sometimes all at the same time. Bird was able to win as clearly his team's best scorer, rebounder, and passer/playmakers, sometimes all at the same time. Could Dirk do something like that? Doesn't seem so, which means he needs certain players around him that could plug more holes that he can't himself.

Obviously building around him results in a ton of success. Just not as much as certain other players. Its not a knock on him. That doesn't mean there's alot of better players to build around then him, cause the NBA is a league where each era's championships are dominated by like 1-2 superstar players (except the 70s). And my point wasn't supposed to be only directed at Dirk. A ton of other players get this same treatment such as Barkley, Malone, Drexler, Nique, Miller, Pierce, Carter, Iverson, Nash, etc where they act like the only difference in success between them and the greatest of the greats is their teams, ignoring that the type of team they have around them has alot to do with that specific centerpiece.
Eh? The type, sure. But the quality though? Shaq needed a swingman scorer, he had Kobe and Wade instead of...Michael Redd for example. In the meantime Dirk had Erick Dampier instead of...Ben Wallace.

[DMAVS41]

Eh? The type, sure. But the quality though? Shaq needed a swingman scorer, he had Kobe and Wade instead of...Michael Redd for example. In the meantime Dirk had Erick Dampier instead of...Ben Wallace.

Yep. He's missing the point. Nobody here is going to say Dirk was better than Shaq or Duncan or Bird or something like that. But could you imagine Dirk and Kobe playing together for 8 years....getting coached by Phil Jackson for 5? Or playing on a team with Bynum, a top 15 player instead of Gasol, prime Odom...coached by Phil Jackson...etc.

Faulting Dirk for not getting to play with a 2nd star for his entire career except for 03 really....it's just not fair. Dirk only helped the Mavs attract better players. It's not his fault that the Mavs couldn't get another elite player in. Just the nature of the league quite frankly...

Just look at Lebron. Could you imagine what a team would be like with prime Dirk, Wade, and a guy like Tyson Chandler instead of Bosh? How the **** are they losing given what we've seen out of Dirk led teams for the past 12 years or so. I can't even imagine what a team would be like with Dirk as the 2nd best player. It is just not a fair comparison.

[Dictator]

Dirk's '11 team definitely was championship caliber.

People need to stop going by statistics and titles and start watching the games.

[brain drain]

Dirk's '11 team definitely was championship caliber.

People need to stop going by statistics and titles and start watching the games.
Yeah, championship caliber in the sense that they won.
Definitely not championship caliber in the sense that anybody would have predicted a championship before the season (or even that a majority would've predicted 2nd, 3rd or 4th round success before the respective series). And not in the sense that they could've won it without Dirk going on string of epic 4th quarter playoff performances.

[spacebump]

Quality players Dirk has played with throughout his career:

Future Hall of Famers:

Steve Nash
Jason Kidd

[I]All-Star/ All-Star Level Players:

Lamar Odom



Neither of those point guards played at hall of fame level while playing with Dirk. (Nash wasn't really Nash until he went to Houston, Kidd was held together with bandaids and bubble gum.)

Lamar Odom was no where near All Star level last season, he was a below average players.

You should watch those seasons before just adding a bunch of players to a list.

[SCdac]

The idea that certain players won more just cause they had better teammates is such a black and white and flawed argument. It is not that simple at all and completely ignores how certain players are easier to build around. People have brought up Duncan and Bird. If Duncan or Bird started with the Mavs in 99 instead of Dirk, they most likely aren't playing on the exact same teams to present day. In fact, they are probably playing on better teams, because those two are easier to build around. And even if they were playing on the same teams, they are still probably more successful just cause they are better and more impactful players due to their more dominant play which is a combination of their greater all around play while basically being a slightly worse, equal, or better at everything Dirk is great at. Dirk in some ways is an easy and hard player to build around. He's easy because him flourishing doesn't really get in the way of his teammates and his durability/longevity which gives his team alot more chances and trial and error to get it "right", which IMO is what basically happened in 2011. He's hard because he's only a great scorer and rebounder (and he's really not that great of a rebounder), while not being much of a playmaker or defender at all. Duncan and Bird are just easier players to build around because they allow their teammates to flourish and don't get in the way, while basically being just as good or better then Dirk at pretty much everything.

this.

building around Dirk took more than a decade to finally get over the championship hump.

Duncan won playing next to centers like Rasho, Nazr Mohammed, Fabricio Oberto.... guys who definitely are not that much better Damp (if at all)

Dirk was pretty soft for much of his career, hovered around the perimeter alot, a jump shooter through and through.... no doubt building a championship team around him was not-as-easy than a more conventional big like Duncan or SF like Bird.

The Mavs becoming a defensive team required outside elements (Avery's influence in 05-06, Chandler joining the team, etc) that Dirk himself couldn't provide.

It's not that building around him was impossible (obviously) ... it just wasn't easy and required the perfect storm of depth, talent, and veteran experience.

[noosaman]

this.

building around Dirk took more than a decade to finally get over the championship hump.

Duncan won playing next to centers like Rasho, Nazr Mohammed, Fabricio Oberto.... guys who definitely are not that much better Damp (if at all)

Dirk was pretty soft for much of his career, hovered around the perimeter alot, a jump shooter through and through.... no doubt building a championship team around him was not-as-easy than a more conventional big like Duncan or SF like Bird.

The Mavs becoming a defensive team required outside elements (Avery's influence in 05-06, Chandler joining the team, etc) that Dirk himself couldn't provide.

It's not that building around him was impossible (obviously) ... it just wasn't easy and required the perfect storm of depth, talent, and veteran experience.

Your homerism knows no bounds. Amazing.

Give Dirk the league's 2nd best swingman, a top 7 pt guard and the best perimeter defender and he EASILY wins 2-4 rings.

[brain drain]

this.

building around Dirk took more than a decade to finally get over the championship hump.

Duncan won playing next to centers like Rasho, Nazr Mohammed, Fabricio Oberto.... guys who definitely are not that much better Damp (if at all)

Dirk was pretty soft for much of his career, hovered around the perimeter alot, a jump shooter through and through.... no doubt building a championship team around him was not-as-easy than a more conventional big like Duncan or SF like Bird.

The Mavs becoming a defensive team required outside elements (Avery's influence in 05-06, Chandler joining the team, etc) that Dirk himself couldn't provide.

It's not that building around him was impossible (obviously) ... it just wasn't easy and required the perfect storm of depth, talent, and veteran experience.
On the other hand, Duncan played for an absolute top coach (Pop) from day 1, played with DRob from Day one and later had the luck to that his organization was able to draft two players (Parker and Ginobili) who absolutely should've been top 5 picks in their drafts with very low picks. Plus very good role players like Bruce Bowen, Horry, Kerr etc.

Dirk had Don Nelson (who wasn't interested in D at all) and Avery (who was completely unable to make any adjustments whatsoever) as his first two coaches.
And he had an organization that was willing to spend money and made some nice moves but was never as good and / or lucky personnel-wise (see: letting Steve Nash go, letting Chandler go, picking up disaster Odom). For how long did Dirk have #2 and #3 options as good as DRob, Parker or Ginobili?

And Dirk still got close to championships (2003, 2006), in spite of that.

Can't say he's that hard to build around.

[noosaman]

On the other hand, Duncan played for an absolute top coach (Pop) from day 1, played with DRob from Day one and later had the luck to that his organization was able to draft two players (Parker and Ginobili) who absolutely should've been top 5 picks in their drafts with very low picks. Plus very good role players like Bruce Bowen, Horry, Kerr etc.

Dirk had Don Nelson (who wasn't interested in D at all) and Avery (who was completely unable to make any adjustments whatsoever) as his first two coaches.
And he had an organization that was willing to spend money and made some nice moves but was never as good and / or lucky personnel-wise (see: letting Steve Nash go, letting Chandler go, picking up disaster Odom). For how long did Dirk have #2 and #3 options as good as DRob, Parker or Ginobili?

And Dirk still got close to championships (2003, 2006), in spite of that.

Can't say he's that hard to build around.

We're talking about a guy who won 55 games and made the WCF semis with a starting 5 of 36 year old jason kidd, antoine freaaking wright, erick dampier, and josh howard.

Yeah, he's EXTREMELY difficult to build around!

[SCdac]

On the other hand, Duncan played for an absolute top coach (Pop) from day 1, played with DRob from Day one and later had the luck to that his organization was able to draft two players (Parker and Ginobili) who absolutely should've been top 5 picks in their drafts with very low picks. Plus very good role players like Bruce Bowen, Horry, Kerr etc.

Should have been top 5 picks?

Parker and Ginobili averaged 9 ppg and 8 ppg in their rookie seasons, neither of them made an AS game till at least their third season (Parker in his fifth season). Many people here think Ginobili isn't close to being a Top 100 player.

When Duncan won his second championship, Parker had a unreliable jumper (was getting benched for Speedy Claxton at the end of games late in the playoffs), and Ginobili was a rookie, still adjusting to the game, playing a limited role.

Not saying they're not great players, but lets put it in context.


Can't say he's that hard to build around.

If making the playoffs is the objective, and on average the second round, sure, I'd agree with you.

Considering a team that won it's sole championship in pretty convincing fashion was preceded and followed by equally convincing first round exits, I'd say Dirk is hard to build around. from what I can tell it's been a tedious, unending process for Cuban and Nelson of rotating star talent/up and coming players/veterans around Dirk. Cuban has gone over the salary cap multiple times in seasons in which they didn't make the WCF... I think Dirk has had plenty of talent, it just took a perfect combination of things for the Mavs to win it all - Dirk matured his game and played desperate to win, had a really deep team, DPOY type center, catching the opponents at the right time, lebron historically choking, TD/Shaq/KG almost or already retired.

[noosaman]

Should have been top 5 picks?

Parker and Ginobili averaged 9 ppg and 8 ppg in their rookie seasons, neither of them made an AS game till at least their third season (Parker in his fifth season). Many people here think Ginobili isn't close to being a Top 100 player.

When Duncan won his second championship, Parker had a unreliable jumper (was getting benched for Speedy Claxton at the end of games late in the playoffs), and Ginobili was a rookie, still adjusting to the game, playing a limited role.

Not saying they're not great players, but lets put it in context.



If making the playoffs is the objective, and on average the second round, sure, I'd agree with you.

Considering a team that won it's sole championship in pretty convincing fashion was preceded and followed by equally convincing first round exits, I'd say Dirk is hard to build around. from what I can tell it's been a tedious, unending process for Cuban and Nelson of rotating star talent/up and coming players/veterans around Dirk. Cuban has gone over the salary cap multiple times in seasons in which they didn't make the WCF... I think Dirk has had plenty of talent, it just took a perfect combination of things for the Mavs to win it all - Dirk matured his game and played desperate to win, had a really deep team, DPOY type center, catching the opponents at the right time, lebron historically choking, TD/Shaq/KG almost or already retired.

Your trolling got exposed badly in this post.

Duncan only won in 02-03 because Dirk got hurt, by the way.

[Cone]

We're talking about a guy who won 55 games and made the WCF semis with a starting 5 of 36 year old jason kidd, antoine freaaking wright, erick dampier, and josh howard.

Yeah, he's EXTREMELY difficult to build around!

Unreal.

KG wouldn't have even made the playoffs with that squad.

[Alan Shore]

dirk took a looong time to develop. the key flaw was that he never developed a game that made others around him better. and the reason for that was he didn't develop a legitimate post game, drawing double teams, and making the correct pass out of double teams. this lack of development caused him to be labeled soft. charles barkley knocked him for years for this, and i agreed with him. frankly this deprived him of another title.

can you imagine if dirk developed a post game by his third or fourth season? in a very odd way there are echoes of patrick ewing in dirk's career: not really great teammates during their tenure with the mavs but then he was not a complete player-- until the last two years ago, that is. and that is what distinguishes him from ewing, that and the obvious inferiority on the defensive end.

[guy]

Kind of a flawed analysis in my opinion. Duncan and Bird were better players, but that really doesn't mean it is easier to put better players around them. Would Duncan have won more with the likes of what Dirk played with? Sure, but that has more to do with his style of play and him being better. Would Bird have? Not so sure about that at all.

Duncan being "easier to build around" did not make Parker and Manu better players than pretty much everyone Dirk has ever played with. Pop being a far better coach than any coach Dirk had had virtually nothing to do with Duncan. If the 06 Mavs had Pop instead of Avery...a title would have been a lock.

These are the exact comments I'm talking about. It would make a lot more sense if Dirk had the all nba type players pretty much needed for winning titles. But he didn't. He never got that...and saying that Dirk didn't have all nba help throughout his career was his fault is silly.

Here is an example. Shaq getting to play with Kobe and Wade. It had nothing to do with Shaq. It had everything to do with the situations he found himself in throughout his career. Dirk not getting to play with a Kobe or Wade or even a Ray Allen or Paul Pierce type player was not his fault. He found himself rebuilding one of the worst franchises in sports and for some reason his owner/gm could never get a 2nd star in during Dirk's prime. If Dirk happened to play on the Lakers....none of this would have been a problem and if you put a guy like KG or someone on the Mavs instead of Dirk...you'd be sitting here saying that Dirk was "easier to build around"...etc. Just not the way it went down at all.

Duncan being better then Dirk means he's easier to build around. The fact that you can acknowledge that he'd be more successful with Dirk's teams despite the fact that those were built with Dirk in mind and they both are significantly different players further proves my point. And I think Bird would've done better. Not necessarily more championships, but at least more successful. The fact is he can basically do everything Dirk can do at pretty much the same level or better, while being a much better passer/playmaker. He just simply adds more to the team.

I'm not saying its his fault. Its ultimately a GM/owner's responsibility and I'm not saying it has 100% to do with the quality of the star player. Of course it has alot to do with the organization and some luck. But certain star players do make it easier then others.

Ginobili and Parker's standing has become overrated due to the fact that they are on the Spurs winning championships. They're great players, but if they were on the Bucks the whole time, they wouldn't be anywhere near as regarded. They were not significantly better players then Nash, Finley, Jamison, Terry, Howard and maybe even Kidd were in certain years they played with Dirk. Arguably not even better then Nash at all.

You're right about the luck factor, but that doesn't mean its just as easy to build around Dirk then it is to build around Shaq. I'm not strictly going off what actually happened. Clearly its easier to build around Shaq.

[guy]

Dirk is far from one-dimensional. He used to be the leading rebounder and scorer for his teams (averaging something like 25 and 12 in the playoffs) for a damn long time. On top of that, he demanded tons of attention which lead to a lot ot open looks for his teammates which is the main reason why his teams had so much success.

I think one of the reasons why Dirk's often rated comparatively low and why people say he doesn't make his teammates better and stuff like that is that one of the main advantages he brings to the table - providing spacing for his team - doesn't show up in stat sheets.

If "spacing provided" was a statistical category, the whole discussion about Dirk would look different. Because it isn't (and because Dirk's other top aspect, total efficiency over 2s 3s and fts as measured in TS% is an advanced stat that most people don't care to look up) people compare him to guys like Garnett who are better at filling up the raw stat sheet and conclude that Garnett must be a much better player who has way more facets to his game, does more for his teammates (because of the assists) etc etc.
Which also leads them to the conclusion that the absolutely only reason why Dirk had as much or more success must have been better teammates.

And which is a completely myopic way of looking at Dirk. Just take a look at those 2005-06 and 2006-07 Dallas teams and ask yourself how on earth these teams were supposed to win 60 and 67 games and make it to the finals once. If Dirk were just another 25ppg scorer with not much more to his game, that simply doesn't happen.

Didn't say he couldn't be built around. Just that its easier with some other players.

[guy]

this.

building around Dirk took more than a decade to finally get over the championship hump.

Duncan won playing next to centers like Rasho, Nazr Mohammed, Fabricio Oberto.... guys who definitely are not that much better Damp (if at all)

Dirk was pretty soft for much of his career, hovered around the perimeter alot, a jump shooter through and through.... no doubt building a championship team around him was not-as-easy than a more conventional big like Duncan or SF like Bird.

The Mavs becoming a defensive team required outside elements (Avery's influence in 05-06, Chandler joining the team, etc) that Dirk himself couldn't provide.

It's not that building around him was impossible (obviously) ... it just wasn't easy and required the perfect storm of depth, talent, and veteran experience.

This. I have huge doubts that if Dirk and Duncan switched places that the Spurs would've won any titles. Dirk/Ginobili/Parker would've been a great offensive trio, but lacking so much defensively. In fact, they probably resemble the Spurs of the last 2 years alot that have had a lot of defensive issues.

[brain drain]

This. I have huge doubts that if Dirk and Duncan switched places that the Spurs would've won any titles. Dirk/Ginobili/Parker would've been a great offensive trio, but lacking so much defensively. In fact, they probably resemble the Spurs of the last 2 years alot that have had a lot of defensive issues.

Oh man, of course you'd build slightly differently around Duncan than around Dirk, after all those two have different playing styles and different strengths.
But finding a decent defensive big like Dampier or Chandler isn't any harder than finding players of Ginobili's and Parker's caliber (which IS hard, especially if you're already a playoff team and don't get lottery picks).

[DMAVS41]

Should have been top 5 picks?

Parker and Ginobili averaged 9 ppg and 8 ppg in their rookie seasons, neither of them made an AS game till at least their third season (Parker in his fifth season). Many people here think Ginobili isn't close to being a Top 100 player.

When Duncan won his second championship, Parker had a unreliable jumper (was getting benched for Speedy Claxton at the end of games late in the playoffs), and Ginobili was a rookie, still adjusting to the game, playing a limited role.

Not saying they're not great players, but lets put it in context.



If making the playoffs is the objective, and on average the second round, sure, I'd agree with you.

Considering a team that won it's sole championship in pretty convincing fashion was preceded and followed by equally convincing first round exits, I'd say Dirk is hard to build around. from what I can tell it's been a tedious, unending process for Cuban and Nelson of rotating star talent/up and coming players/veterans around Dirk. Cuban has gone over the salary cap multiple times in seasons in which they didn't make the WCF... I think Dirk has had plenty of talent, it just took a perfect combination of things for the Mavs to win it all - Dirk matured his game and played desperate to win, had a really deep team, DPOY type center, catching the opponents at the right time, lebron historically choking, TD/Shaq/KG almost or already retired.

You keep confusing things. Duncan is better than Dirk!!!!!!!!!!!! No shit. That doesn't mean it was easier to put better players and a better coach around him. The truth is that both Parker and Manu are better than any player Dirk has played with since Nash left. And Pop is a far better coach than anyone that has ever coached Dirk. That matters. Doesn't mean Dirk is as good as Duncan, but this notion that Duncan made it easier for the Spurs to get good players than Dirk did for the Mavs is absurd. In fact, the Duncan Spurs are really the point. A lot of what leads to success in the NBA is luck. If both Parker and Manu had turned into busts, people would be sitting here saying that Duncan was hard to build around or some nonsense like that.

Duncan had more success than Dirk and won with a weak roster in 03 because he's one of the best players ever and a better player than Dirk. That is a valid point. Saying that the Spurs had an easier time getting a top notch coach and better players because of Duncan is not true. They essentially lucked into Manu and Parker....and really actually lucked into Duncan because of the Robinson injury.

And acting like Parker and Manu haven't been elite players since 05 is silly. Again...both Parker and Manu are better than any player Dirk has played with since Nash left. And honestly...I'm not sure 02 and 03 Nash was better than Parker since 05...etc.

There have been 3 years that Dirk had legit championship caliber help in the playoffs. 03...made the WCF and got hurt. Would have been a 50/50 series. 06...made the finals after upsetting the title favored Spurs. 11...won it all.

The problem was not Dirk. It was the Mavs inability to give Dirk the necessary help that is almost always required to win a NBA title.

[Dasher]

I dare you to find any all-time great player that played with just 4 all-stars during his time as an all-star and was able to lead a team to a championship. I'll wait.

Rick Barry

[DMAVS41]

Duncan being better then Dirk means he's easier to build around. The fact that you can acknowledge that he'd be more successful with Dirk's teams despite the fact that those were built with Dirk in mind and they both are significantly different players further proves my point. And I think Bird would've done better. Not necessarily more championships, but at least more successful. The fact is he can basically do everything Dirk can do at pretty much the same level or better, while being a much better passer/playmaker. He just simply adds more to the team.

I'm not saying its his fault. Its ultimately a GM/owner's responsibility and I'm not saying it has 100% to do with the quality of the star player. Of course it has alot to do with the organization and some luck. But certain star players do make it easier then others.

Ginobili and Parker's standing has become overrated due to the fact that they are on the Spurs winning championships. They're great players, but if they were on the Bucks the whole time, they wouldn't be anywhere near as regarded. They were not significantly better players then Nash, Finley, Jamison, Terry, Howard and maybe even Kidd were in certain years they played with Dirk. Arguably not even better then Nash at all.

You're right about the luck factor, but that doesn't mean its just as easy to build around Dirk then it is to build around Shaq. I'm not strictly going off what actually happened. Clearly its easier to build around Shaq.

That is basically just saying that any non pf/c position is harder to build around. Which is fine...even though I don't agree really.

Just be consistent and say that the likes of guys like Bird, Kobe, Magic...any great non pf/c that isn't also an elite defender is hard to build around.

You also seem to be confused on how long Dirk had Nash, Finley...etc. Dirk became an elite player in 02 really. Dirk had Nash for 02, 03, and 04. In 02 the Mavs lost to the Kings....a team that should have won the title. In 03 Dirk got hurt in the WCF. In 04 Nash was hurt of and on all year and Finley had declined. You are honestly looking at a 1 year sample size with a legit chance to win with finley/nash...etc. And Dirk suffered his only injury of his career in the WCF.

If Dirk had played with prime Nash an Finley for years and had no success...then I'd agree. But he didn't even come close to that. He played with worse teams in his prime than most great players do. He's never really had a 2nd guy his entire career.

But these comparisons with Duncan are silly because Duncan is really the only player in history to have the kind of success he did without all nba help year in year out.

But it doesn't mean it was easier to give Duncan better players. It means a team with Duncan is more likely to win because he's better than Dirk. You would think that was just obvious to everyone here.

That would be like saying Shaq is harder to build around because he only won playing with all time great shooting guards in Wade and Kobe. Imagine Dirk getting to play with the caliber of players like that for a decade of his career...etc. It's just different.

And the hard to build around thing is kind of silly honestly. Dirk consistently led teams to 50 plus wins and playoff success for 12 years while doing it with totally different coaches and players. Reality is that...give Dirk a decent squad and you are winning 50 plus no matter what if he's healthy. Give him a really good team and you are going to the WCF, Finals, or winning it all.

And even with all that...we still never got to see prime Dirk play on a team with the likes of a prime Parker or prime Manu. We saw him beat those guys...but not play with players as good.

[guy]

Oh man, of course you'd build slightly differently around Duncan than around Dirk, after all those two have different playing styles and different strengths.
But finding a decent defensive big like Dampier or Chandler isn't any harder than finding players of Ginobili's and Parker's caliber (which IS hard, especially if you're already a playoff team and don't get lottery picks).

Chandler is more then decent. Dampier isn't. And by bringing up this comparison, you illustrate my point. When you have Tim Duncan, how necessary is someone like Tyson Chandler? When you have Dirk, you do need someone like Tyson Chandler. And then in both cases, you still need 2nd option wing scorers like Ginobili, Parker, Terry, etc.

[DMAVS41]

Chandler is more then decent. Dampier isn't. And by bringing up this comparison, you illustrate my point. When you have Tim Duncan, how necessary is someone like Tyson Chandler? When you have Dirk, you do need someone like Tyson Chandler. And then in both cases, you still need 2nd option wing scorers like Ginobili, Parker, Terry, etc.

Now Terry is some star player?

With Dirk you need a decent defensive minded center and an above average wing scorer like Terry.

That is nothing. Absolutely nothing compared to the loaded championship teams that have won titles throughout NBA history.

That is like saying that Kobe needed an elite pf or c. The greatest coach of all time...and a veteran laden cast to win his titles. So do you feel the same way about Kobe as you do Dirk?

And you really don't need Chandler with Dirk...not that a 9/8 center that also plays good defense is all that much anyway. Dirk almost won with Diop and Damp at center. The truth is no different with Dirk than it is with most players. You need a legit all nba type 2nd star player, quality coaching, and a decent big to rebound/defend. Diop/Damp, Dirk, and Paul Pierce with a good coach and solid team...something like that from 04 to 11 would have been great. That is just not asking for much at all considering what normally wins.

[Kblaze8855]

What Jason Terrys name is doesnt mean he wasnt playing like a star when they won. Especially if guys like young Parker and Manu are being propped up as special. Terry is never going to be a real star....but hes a big reason they beat the Heat. 18 a game on 48% shooting in only 33 minutes in the playoffs from your....2nd-5th best player(depending on how you value defense)? Thats pretty pretty pretty good.

That said...im not sure why anyone feels Dirk is hard to build around. Id say Dirk wouldnt prevent you from playing any particular style. He can be placed virtually anywhere, doesnt need the ball more than a couple seconds, doesnt seem to have much of an ego, and has played well with every variety of teammate. All hes never had is a low post scorer and I see no reason to assume he wouldnt do well.

He doesnt hold down a defense but on offense...he can play with anyone.

[SCdac]

If both Parker and Manu had turned into busts, people would be sitting here saying that Duncan was hard to build around or some nonsense like that.

Except for the fact that Duncan won a championship before TP and Ginobili were even in the NBA.

Did something in his second season that it took Dirk 13 seasons to do.

When TD won his second one, Parker and Manu were both strictly role players, nothing close to All Stars.

Even if they didn't work out, Duncan's career is just fine.

[guy]

That is basically just saying that any non pf/c position is harder to build around. Which is fine...even though I don't agree really.

Just be consistent and say that the likes of guys like Bird, Kobe, Magic...any great non pf/c that isn't also an elite defender is hard to build around.


No, thats not what I said and I'm not being inconsistent at all. Magic and Bird are arguably just as easy as Duncan to build around because of their elite passing/playmaking plus certain intangible factors i.e. being able to play more positions, the fact that they don't take up a position that is arguably the most important defensively (PF/C), Magic considered easily one of the greatest leaders in NBA history, etc. They aren't elite defenders like Duncan but outside of that, they still provide more then Dirk. I'm saying players like Bird, Magic, Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe are easier to build around because they have an impact on more aspects of the game while still having around the same impact or better on the aspects Dirk impacts.



You also seem to be confused on how long Dirk had Nash, Finley...etc. Dirk became an elite player in 02 really. Dirk had Nash for 02, 03, and 04. In 02 the Mavs lost to the Kings....a team that should have won the title. In 03 Dirk got hurt in the WCF. In 04 Nash was hurt of and on all year and Finley had declined. You are honestly looking at a 1 year sample size with a legit chance to win with finley/nash...etc. And Dirk suffered his only injury of his career in the WCF.

If Dirk had played with prime Nash an Finley for years and had no success...then I'd agree. But he didn't even come close to that. He played with worse teams in his prime than most great players do. He's never really had a 2nd guy his entire career.

Well it seems like we are just comparing them to Duncan and his teammates right? So whether they were in their prime or declined doesn't matter much. Dirk had Finley and Nash from 01-04 where they were putting up similar production to what Ginobili and Parker provide.



But these comparisons with Duncan are silly because Duncan is really the only player in history to have the kind of success he did without all nba help year in year out.

But it doesn't mean it was easier to give Duncan better players. It means a team with Duncan is more likely to win because he's better than Dirk. You would think that was just obvious to everyone here.

In certain ways it is, but I'm not sure it applies to Duncan's case, and anyway, I'm not just talking about the 2nd or 3rd best player on a team. In Duncan's case, he's easier to build around because he fills more holes that doesn't require other players to fill. And his teammates are considered significantly better then others because of the success they've attained that was largely due to Duncan.



That would be like saying Shaq is harder to build around because he only won playing with all time great shooting guards in Wade and Kobe. Imagine Dirk getting to play with the caliber of players like that for a decade of his career...etc. It's just different.

And the hard to build around thing is kind of silly honestly. Dirk consistently led teams to 50 plus wins and playoff success for 12 years while doing it with totally different coaches and players. Reality is that...give Dirk a decent squad and you are winning 50 plus no matter what if he's healthy. Give him a really good team and you are going to the WCF, Finals, or winning it all.

And even with all that...we still never got to see prime Dirk play on a team with the likes of a prime Parker or prime Manu. We saw him beat those guys...but not play with players as good.

I've clarified myself multiple times now that I didn't mean he's absolutely hard to build around, but that there's like 10-20 players in history that are easier to build around. That shouldn't be degrading or insulting.

[Legends66NBA7]

I think it has to do more with the fact that Dirk didn't have another legit superstar develop on a consistent basis for a number of seasons with Dirk. He had some very talented teams and some mediocre ones.

Nevertheless, his team success is a testament to his greatness. Sure he's had help, but he's been the best player on his team for well over a decade and one of the best player performers, when given the chance to player (and I reward things like that highly).

I did this back in another thread, just incase more wanted to know about Dirk's playoffs before 2011:


Let's check out Dirk since 2001:

2001
RS: 22/9/2/1/1 on 47/39/84 (82 games)
PO: 23/8/1/1/1 on 42/28/88 (10 games)

*Dirk's first playoff run wasn't that eventful, but there are some games to talk about. His team faced elimination 5 times. Here was his production in those games:

Game 3 vs Jazz: 33/10/2/1blk on 9-19fg 2-7(3pt) 13-14ft
Game 4 vs Jazz: 33/8/2 on 10-19fg 5-10(3pt) 8-9ft
Game 5 vs Jazz: 18/4/1/1stl on 3-11fg 2-4(3pt) 10-10ft
Game 4 vs Spurs: 30/9/1/1stl on 11-18fg 0-1(3pt) 8-8ft
Game 5 vs Spurs: 42/18/6stl/2ast/1blk on 14-24fg 0-1(3pt) 14-18ft

Now granted, Dirk didn't play well earlier in those series, but in 4 of 5 elimination games he did raise his game in "tense situations". And it was just his first playoff run and for the Dallas Mavericks, who were in their first playoffs since 1990... also won their first playoff series since 1988.

2002
RS: 23/10/2/1/1 on 48/40/85 (76 games)
PO: 28/13/2/2/1 on 45/57/88 (8 games)

*Dirk's first all-star year and he raises his game in the playoffs. He had a great first round but a much better Kings team beats the Mavs in 5. Dirk also struggles. 1 elimination game:

Game 5 vs Kings: 33/12/3/1/1 on 13-25fg 3-5(3pt) 3-4ft

2003
RS: 25/10/3/1/1 on 46/38/88 (80 games)
PO: 25/11/2/1/1 on 48/44/91 (17 games)

*Mavs make it to the WCF for the first time since 1988. Dirk Raises his game in the playoffs. Unfortunately for Dirk, he gets an injury during Game 3 and is unable to play the rest of the series. The big "what if ?" is, what happens if Dirk rides out the rest of that series ? Are the Mavs going to the Finals ? If so, they probably win their first title back in 2003. 2 Elimination games:

Game 7 vs Blazers: 31/11/1/2/3blk on 12-21fg 1-4(3pt) 6-6ft (this after coming of one of his worst games as a pro.)
Game 7 vs Kings: 30/19/2/1/1 in 12-20fg 3-4(3pt) 3-4ft (granted, C-Webb wasn't play after Game 2 of this series, so yes, this series could have also gone both ways.)

2004
RS: 22/9/3/1/1 on 46/34/88 (77 games)
PO: 27/12/3blk/1/1 on 45/47/86 (5 games)

*Dirk raises his game in the playoffs. Mavs, however, are eliminated from the first round in the "Dirk era". 1 elimination game:

Game 5 vs Kings: 31/14/4blk/1stl on 11-23fg 2-2(3pt) 7-7ft

2005:
RS: 26/10/3/2blk/1stl on 46/40/87 (78 games)
PO: 24/10/3/2blk 1stl on 40/33/83 (13 games)

*Dirk had a great regular season but didn't increase his play in the playoffs and was inconsistent. His scoring and efficiency is down across the board. Mavs lose to the favourite Suns. Also, didn't play up to par in his past elimination game performances:

Game 7 vs Rockets: 14/14/3blk/2ast/1stl on 5-14fg 0-1(3pt) 4-6ft
Game 6 vs Suns: 28/13/6 on 9-25fg 2-5 (3pt) 8-10ft

2006
RS: 27/9/3/1/1 on 48/41/90 (81 games)
PO: 27/11/3/1/1 on 47/34/90 (23 games)

*Mavs as a team overachieved and reach the Finals for the first time in franchise history. However, there are two sides to this season and people remember the Mavs blowing a 2-0 series lead and the series. Dirk, yes choked, on the free throw line, and Game 4 to follow. If he doesn't choke and the Mavs win the title, then it's clearly his best season. 2 elimination games:

Game 7 vs Spurs: 37/15/3/1/1 on 11-20fg 0-1(3pt) 15-16ft
Game 6 vs Heat: 29/15/2/2blk on 10-22fg 1-2(3pt) 8-8ft

2007
RS: 25/9/3/1/1 on 50/42/90 (78 games)
PO: 20/11/2/2/1 on 38/21/84 (6 games)

*Dirk's MVP RS, but we all know what happens in the playoffs. No excuses here, Dirk was terrible for his standards and the Mavs were upset big time (though looking back, the Warriors matched this Mavs team great). 2 elimination games:

Game 5 vs Warriors: 30/12/3/1blk on 7-15fg 2-3(3pt) 14-15ft
Game 6 vs Warriors: 8/10/2/1stl on 2-13fg 0-6(3pt) 4-4ft

2008
RS: 24/9/4/1/1 on 48/36/88 (77 games)
PO: 27/12/4/1blk on 47/33/81 (5 games)

*Dirk has a rebound year from his playoff production, but his Mavs are beaten by the favourite Hornets. Elimination game:

Game 5 vs Hornets: 22/13/6/2blk on 8-21fg 1-5(3pt) 5-7ft

2009
RS: 26/8/2/1/1 on 48/36/89 (81 games)
PO: 27/10/3/1/1 on 52/29/93 (10 games)

*Dirk raises his play in the playoffs and the Mavs upset the #2 ranked Spurs, before losing to the more talented and favourite Nuggets in 5. Elimination games:

Game 4 vs Nuggets: 44/13/3/2/1 on 14-25fg 16-17ft
Game 5 vs Nuggets: 32/10/7/1blk on 9-17fg 2-5(3pt) 12-12ft

2010
RS: 25/8/3/1/1 on 48/42/92 (81 games)
PO: 27/8/3/1/1 on 55/57/95 (5 games)

*Mavs gets upset again by a lower seed, but not because of Dirk's play. Unlike the Warriors series, this isn't Dirk choking. More like a roster of players not synching well enough for a short period of time. 2 elimination games:

Game 5 vs Spurs: 15/9/2/2/3 on 7-14fg 1-1ft
Game 6 vs Spurs: 33/5/4 on 13-21fg 2-4ft 5-6ft


So, as you can see, Dirk had a lot more moments of overachieving and playing great in most elimination games (tense situations). Yes, there were moments he choked, but I think everyone gets the "choking" label, until they get their first title.

[DMAVS41]

What Jason Terrys name is doesnt mean he wasnt playing like a star when they won. Especially if guys like young Parker and Manu are being propped up as special. Terry is never going to be a real star....but hes a big reason they beat the Heat. 18 a game on 48% shooting in only 33 minutes in the playoffs from your....2nd-5th best player(depending on how you value defense)? Thats pretty pretty pretty good.

That said...im not sure why anyone feels Dirk is hard to build around. Id say Dirk wouldnt prevent you from playing any particular style. He can be placed virtually anywhere, doesnt need the ball more than a couple seconds, doesnt seem to have much of an ego, and has played well with every variety of teammate. All hes never had is a low post scorer and I see no reason to assume he wouldnt do well.

He doesnt hold down a defense but on offense...he can play with anyone.

that is the point. when Terry played like a star...or at least well. the Mavs had great success. the two years that Terry actually played like a borderline all star in the playoffs the Mavs upset the Spurs in 06 and made the finals...and then won it all in 11.

that is the point.

[DMAVS41]

Except for the fact that Duncan won a championship before TP and Ginobili were even in the NBA.

Did something in his second season that it took Dirk 13 seasons to do.

When TD won his second one, Parker and Manu were both strictly role players, nothing close to All Stars.

Even if they didn't work out, Duncan's career is just fine.

You seem to be trying to make the point that Duncan is better than Dirk. Is anyone arguing with you?

My point was that Duncan did not make it easier for the Spurs to get good players. They drafted Parker and Manu and they turned into very good players. They could have been busts and the Spurs would have been much worse for the last 8 years or so. Had nothing to do with anything Duncan did.

Duncan is easier to build around for the sole fact that he's better. If that is your only point then I don't see the relevance of the statement that made earlier.

[DMAVS41]

No, thats not what I said and I'm not being inconsistent at all. Magic and Bird are arguably just as easy as Duncan to build around because of their elite passing/playmaking plus certain intangible factors i.e. being able to play more positions, the fact that they don't take up a position that is arguably the most important defensively (PF/C), Magic considered easily one of the greatest leaders in NBA history, etc. They aren't elite defenders like Duncan but outside of that, they still provide more then Dirk. I'm saying players like Bird, Magic, Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe are easier to build around because they have an impact on more aspects of the game while still having around the same impact or better on the aspects Dirk impacts.



Well it seems like we are just comparing them to Duncan and his teammates right? So whether they were in their prime or declined doesn't matter much. Dirk had Finley and Nash from 01-04 where they were putting up similar production to what Ginobili and Parker provide.



In certain ways it is, but I'm not sure it applies to Duncan's case, and anyway, I'm not just talking about the 2nd or 3rd best player on a team. In Duncan's case, he's easier to build around because he fills more holes that doesn't require other players to fill. And his teammates are considered significantly better then others because of the success they've attained that was largely due to Duncan.



I've clarified myself multiple times now that I didn't mean he's absolutely hard to build around, but that there's like 10-20 players in history that are easier to build around. That shouldn't be degrading or insulting.

If there are only 15 or so players in the history of NBA basketball easier to build around then the statement that it is hard to build around Dirk is idiotic.

Also, please name me the players you think it was easier to build around then Dirk.

[Balla_Status]

Except for the fact that Duncan won a championship before TP and Ginobili were even in the NBA.

Did something in his second season that it took Dirk 13 seasons to do.

When TD won his second one, Parker and Manu were both strictly role players, nothing close to All Stars.

Even if they didn't work out, Duncan's career is just fine.

Yeah, must've been nice to play with David Robinson.

[guy]

If there are only 15 or so players in the history of NBA basketball easier to build around then the statement that it is hard to build around Dirk is idiotic.

Also, please name me the players you think it was easier to build around then Dirk.

Right. Like I said, I've clarified what I've meant multiple times now, this being another time. I didn't mean he was hard to build around, but that there are other players that have been brought up in this thread that are easier to build around. Not sure why you still bring this up.

Jordan
Magic
Bird
Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Kobe
Lebron
KG
Moses
West
Oscar

Some of it is arguable so I wouldn't argue if you thought otherwise. And obviously some of them I haven't seen enough of, so I'm just going by what I know.

[Balla_Status]

Right. Like I said, I've clarified what I've meant multiple times now, this being another time. I didn't mean he was hard to build around, but that there are other players that have been brought up in this thread that are easier to build around. Not sure why you still bring this up.

Jordan
Magic
Bird
Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Kobe
Lebron
KG
Moses
West
Oscar

Some of it is arguable so I wouldn't argue if you thought otherwise. And obviously some of them I haven't seen enough of, so I'm just going by what I know.
No justification for KG.

Could say the same for Lebron and Kobe too. Have always needed stacked teams to win ships. Dirk's never had the kind of talent those two have had.

[brain drain]

No justification for KG.

Could say the same for Lebron and Kobe too. Have always needed stacked teams to win ships. Dirk's never had the kind of talent those two have had.
Same goes for Moses (1 championship, w/ Dr J), West (1 championship, w/ Wilt) and Oscar (No championship).

[SCdac]

My point was that Duncan did not make it easier for the Spurs to get good players. They drafted Parker and Manu and they turned into very good players. They could have been busts and the Spurs would have been much worse for the last 8 years or so. Had nothing to do with anything Duncan did.

You don't think Parker and Manu's development, and the Spurs collective development, has anything to do with playing next to one of the most sturdy, consistent, complete, even keeled players ever?

When those two came into the league, Duncan was getting double and triple teamed by opponents, and when they started becoming elite players Duncan was willing to defer.

We gonna act like Duncan was "just there" now? I don't think it's difficult to grasp the direct and indirect influence he's had in SA.

Hell, one of the Mavs best players jumped ship and joined the Spurs. (Van Exel too for that matter)


"To be a part of a championship team, I'm excited," Michael Finley said. "This is the closest I've ever been to a championship. I'm looking forward to the challenge of helping this team repeat."

Asked why he picked the Spurs, Finley said: "In a nutshell, they're already a championship team but they have room for improvement. And I feel my game can help them in the areas where they need improvement."

[Legends66NBA7]

Same goes for Moses (1 championship, w/ Dr J), West (1 championship, w/ Wilt) and Oscar (No championship).

Oscar has a chip, with Kareem.

[brain drain]

Oscar has a chip, with Kareem.
OK, that puts him in the same category as West and Moses.

[guy]

No justification for KG.

Could say the same for Lebron and Kobe too. Have always needed stacked teams to win ships. Dirk's never had the kind of talent those two have had.

KG is clearly better then Dirk at everything but scoring, while being a really good scorer himself. Of course its arguable. Dirk has a case cause of his superior scoring and ability to close games. Either way, its arguable.

Just because Lebron and Kobe won a certain way doesn't mean thats absolutely what they needed to win and was the only way they could win. Its such a flawed way of thinking here.

[brain drain]

You don't think Parker and Manu's development, and the Spurs collective development, has anything to do with playing next to one of the most sturdy, consistent, complete, even keeled players ever?

When those two came into the league, Duncan was getting double and triple teamed by opponents, and when they started becoming elite players Duncan was willing to defer.

We gonna act like Duncan was "just there" now? I don't think it's difficult to grasp the direct and indirect influence he's had in SA.

Hell, one of the Mavs best players jumped ship and joined the Spurs. (Van Exel too for that matter)
Please don't pretend that Duncan magically turned Parker and Ginobili into stars.

[guy]

We gonna act like Duncan was "just there" now? I don't think it's difficult to grasp the direct and indirect influence he's had in SA.


This is exactly what I'm talking about. People act like Duncan, Shaq, Jordan, Magic just sat around, tweedled their thumbs and watched as their teammates did all the work, while they did nothing on or off the court to influence almost everything on their team.

[DMAVS41]

You don't think Parker and Manu's development, and the Spurs collective development, has anything to do with playing next to one of the most sturdy, consistent, complete, even keeled players ever?

When those two came into the league, Duncan was getting double and triple teamed by opponents, and when they started becoming elite players Duncan was willing to defer.

We gonna act like Duncan was "just there" now? I don't think it's difficult to grasp the direct and indirect influence he's had in SA.

Hell, one of the Mavs best players jumped ship and joined the Spurs. (Van Exel too for that matter)

You are getting into a very subjective area that has nothing to do with this conversation quite honestly. Getting good players has far more to do with front office / team location / owner than it does with superstars.

Do you honestly think that if Dirk was drafted by the Lakers that the best player he'd play with for his entire prime would be Terry? LOL

And I will ask again. Why are we comparing Dirk to a player that has probably won the most with the least in NBA history. It makes no sense. Duncan has 4 rings without an all nba teammate. To my recollection nobody is even close to that. Just seems silly.

[Money 23]

Do you honestly think that if Dirk was drafted by the Lakers that the best player he'd play with for his entire prime would be Terry? LOL
Terry isn't better than Nash or Michael Finley. He's another form of Nick Van Excel's days in Dallas. Dirk may not have played with a fellow superstar at their peak, but his supporting casts have been very talented top to bottom, and fit his talents perfectly.

[DMAVS41]

KG is clearly better then Dirk at everything but scoring, while being a really good scorer himself. Of course its arguable. Dirk has a case cause of his superior scoring and ability to close games. Either way, its arguable.

Just because Lebron and Kobe won a certain way doesn't mean thats absolutely what they needed to win and was the only way they could win. Its such a flawed way of thinking here.

KG never won or really had any success outside of 04 without stacked teams. No evidence whatsoever that KG is easier to build around. Absolutely can't list him...along with a number of other players you listed.

[DMAVS41]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. People act like Duncan, Shaq, Jordan, Magic just sat around, tweedled their thumbs and watched as their teammates did all the work, while they did nothing on or off the court to influence almost everything on their team.

Shaq did not make Kobe. Shaq had the great fortune of playing with one of the best players ever. Same goes with his time for Wade.

Magic played with ****ing Kareem and Worthy and a bunch of other great players.

Duncan has won the most with the least, but using Magic or Shaq as examples of being easy to build around is silly given the fact that especially Shaq only won with a top 5 player in the league on his team and all time great coaching.

Dirk has never even had a top 10 player on his team at any point in his career. Shaq and Magic had top 10 players of all time on their teams...ROFL

[b1imtf]

KG never won or really had any success outside of 04 without stacked teams. No evidence whatsoever that KG is easier to build around. Absolutely can't list him...along with a number of other players you listed.
Hard to build around both Dirk and Garnett, they're very unique

[SCdac]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. People act like Duncan, Shaq, Jordan, Magic just sat around, tweedled their thumbs and watched as their teammates did all the work, while they did nothing on or off the court to influence almost everything on their team.

Yeah, it's a pretty naive outlook. Funny thing is, the same people saying this stuff are the same people quick to prop up Dirk for making his teammates better, making the game easier, etc. Which there is truth to that too, just like Duncan, Jordan, Kareem, etc, all influenced their team positively.

But yeah, I'm sure when Parker and Manu are asked about Duncan and how he's helped, they're probably just like "Eh, he was ok. Set a good screen every now and then, but nothing too amazing. I just stayed in SA because of the great weather and Pop is so lovable".... :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

Yeah, it's a pretty naive outlook. Funny thing is, the same people saying this stuff are the same people quick to prop up Dirk for making his teammates better, making the game easier, etc. Which there is truth to that too, just like Duncan, Jordan, Kareem, etc, all influenced their team positively.

But yeah, I'm sure when Parker and Manu are asked about Duncan and how he's helped, they're probably just like "Eh, he was ok. Set a good screen every now and then, but nothing too amazing. I just stayed in SA because of the great weather and Pop is so lovable".... :oldlol:

What relevance to this discussion is that? This is about the help that Dirk had. Do you think that Dirk had a Manu or Parker on his team and they just didn't happen because of a fault of Dirk?

If anything, it is on Cuban for trading away Nash. Not sure how that was Dirk's fault.

[SCdac]

What relevance to this discussion is that? This is about the help that Dirk had. Do you think that Dirk had a Manu or Parker on his team and they just didn't happen because of a fault of Dirk?

If anything, it is on Cuban for trading away Nash. Not sure how that was Dirk's fault.

Cuban is a part of it, management, the lack of going all the way, guys wanting to go teams with a better chance, guys wanting a bigger role, the team having no defensive direction, etc, etc... I'm sure there's a variety of reasons players left Dallas - or didn't choose Dallas; Deron Williams is a good example, citing the Nets as a team with a better chance of going all the way.

I was just responding to your comment of Parker and Manu turning out the way they did has "nothing to do with anything Duncan did"... I disagree... He's been one of the best team captains a team can ask for, and being offensively elite, he demanded a great deal of the defense' attention. Not to mention cleaning up around the basket on defense when perimeter players blow past Parker or Manu.

[SHAQisGOAT]

One thing people also forget to mention when they talk about someone's teammates/help is - competition faced.

[Legends66NBA7]

One thing people also forget to mention when they talk about someone's teammates/help is - competition faced.

This is true as well. I covered that in my first post in the thread.

It also makes Dirk's 2011 run very impressive to me. I don't they were even favoured THAT much to get out of the first round vs Portland. Then beat 3 teams that were obviously more talented then the Mavs.

In comparison to the rosters... the 2011 Mavs were true underdogs that year and it' was funny to see Dirk/Mavs detractors try to prop that 2011 team during the playoffs/finals run (when I used to lurk on ISH).

[brain drain]

Cuban is a part of it, management, the lack of going all the way, guys wanting to go teams with a better chance, guys wanting a bigger role, the team having no defensive direction, etc, etc... I'm sure there's a variety of reasons players left Dallas - or didn't choose Dallas; Deron Williams is a good example, citing the Nets as a team with a better chance of going all the way.

Nash left, because Cuban didn't match the Suns' offer. Chandler left because Cuban didn't match the Knicks' offer. Those were the two leavings that mattered.
None of that had to do with roles, defense or chances to win a title.

Btw, while Deron also got a bigger contract from the Nets than he could've gotten from the Mavs (IIRC 15 million $ bigger).


I was just responding to your comment of Parker and Manu turning out the way they did has "nothing to do with anything Duncan did"... I disagree... He's been one of the best team captains a team can ask for, and being offensively elite, he demanded a great deal of the defense' attention. Not to mention cleaning up around the basket on defense when perimeter players blow past Parker or Manu.
That's dramatically overplaying Duncan's influence. Yeah, playing with great players helps everybody. But there's no reason to believe that Parker and Ginobili wouldn't have become good players on any other team. It's not Duncan's doing that the Spur's talent evaluators managed to find diamonds on the scrap heap.

[noosaman]

Nash left, because Cuban didn't match the Suns' offer. Chandler left because Cuban didn't match the Knicks' offer. Those were the two leavings that mattered.
None of that had to do with roles, defense or chances to win a title.

Btw, while Deron also got a bigger contract from the Nets than he could've gotten from the Mavs (IIRC 15 million $ bigger).


That's dramatically overplaying Duncan's influence. Yeah, playing with great players helps everybody. But there's no reason to believe that Parker and Ginobili wouldn't have become good players on any other team. It's not Duncan's doing that the Spur's talent evaluators managed to find diamonds on the scrap heap.

Dude you have to keep in mind that ScDac is a huge Spurs homer and detracts Dirk at every turn.

Ginobli raped Team USA before every putting on a Spurs uniform. He was obviously great without Duncan.

[guy]

KG never won or really had any success outside of 04 without stacked teams. No evidence whatsoever that KG is easier to build around. Absolutely can't list him...along with a number of other players you listed.

Is skillset/impact/playing style/leadership/work ethic/durability not considered evidence? There's no concrete evidence of anything cause we can't replay a player's career under a million different scenarios, so if you want to say that, you can say something similar about many players. You can say Jordan wasn't easier to build around then Dirk.

KG is one of those few players that I would say actually does have a case for his situations in Minnesota being so poor being out of his hands and attributed moreso to bad luck and management, and that his team success is not a very good gauge to reflect really how great he is. It was a bad mix of poor ownership, management, weak market, the Joe Smith situation, the CBA changing after he got that humongous contract, etc. If it wasn't for that, maybe he has that 04 quality team for his whole career and we're speaking entirely different about him. Of course his own flaw of being a reluctanct closer, which is really the thing that doesn't put him up there with the greatest players ever, attributes to it as well. And his flaw of being blindingly loyal, hurt him individually.

I can list him. Its either foolish and/or biased to suggest its not arguable, which is what I implied by saying 10-20 players. These two are clearly on par with each other and its stupid to suggest otherwise.



Shaq did not make Kobe. Shaq had the great fortune of playing with one of the best players ever. Same goes with his time for Wade.

Magic played with ****ing Kareem and Worthy and a bunch of other great players.

Duncan has won the most with the least, but using Magic or Shaq as examples of being easy to build around is silly given the fact that especially Shaq only won with a top 5 player in the league on his team and all time great coaching.

Dirk has never even had a top 10 player on his team at any point in his career. Shaq and Magic had top 10 players of all time on their teams...ROFL

So you're going to ROFL at the idea that Shaq and Magic are easier to build around then Dirk? Really? Are you serious?

[DMAVS41]

Is skillset/impact/playing style/leadership/work ethic/durability not considered evidence? There's no concrete evidence of anything cause we can't replay a player's career under a million different scenarios, so if you want to say that, you can say something similar about many players. You can say Jordan wasn't easier to build around then Dirk.

KG is one of those few players that I would say actually does have a case for his situations in Minnesota being so poor being out of his hands and attributed moreso to bad luck and management, and that his team success is not a very good gauge to reflect really how great he is. It was a bad mix of poor ownership, management, weak market, the Joe Smith situation, the CBA changing after he got that humongous contract, etc. If it wasn't for that, maybe he has that 04 quality team for his whole career and we're speaking entirely different about him. Of course his own flaw of being a reluctanct closer, which is really the thing that doesn't put him up there with the greatest players ever, attributes to it as well. And his flaw of being blindingly loyal, hurt him individually.

I can list him. Its either foolish and/or biased to suggest its not arguable, which is what I implied by saying 10-20 players. These two are clearly on par with each other and its stupid to suggest otherwise.



So you're going to ROFL at the idea that Shaq and Magic are easier to build around then Dirk? Really? Are you serious?

I'm saying that the evidence we actually have is being ignored. How many superstars in NBA history have won a title without an all nba or even all star teammate? How many superstars have led a team to 67 wins with a roster similar to that of the 07 Mavs. How many superstars have led 11 different teams to over 50 wins in a row with the kind of help Dirk has had?

All I know is that guys like Shaq, Magic, and Duncan are better players. That is all I know.

I just find discussions like this comical because I think Dirk is actually one of the easiest players of all time to build around. You actually do as well...which is also funny. Dirk has been remarkably durable throughout his career. He has virtually no ego. He doesn't dominate the ball. He's got ice water in his veins at the end of games. He's one of the most unique matchups in NBA history...etc. I can think of maybe like 10 to 12 guys in the history of the game that you would rather build around.

And this all started with you implying that the reason the Mavs didn't win more or had to bring in new players all the time was because of Dirk. Which couldn't be more off in terms of analysis.

People saying things like "it took Dirk 13 years to figure it out"...nonsense. Dirk had it figured out really from 02 on and definitely had it figured out in 06. But when you rely on help from Terry or Josh Howard and the coaching of Avery Johnson instead of the likes of a Pat Riley and a Wade or Shaq....you most likely are going to lose. Just the way the NBA works...always has and always will..with rare exceptions like Dirk in 11 or Duncan in 03.

I just guess I don't see what you guys are talking about. Replace Jason Terry from 06 to 12 on the Mavs with Ray Allen or Paul Pierce and who knows what would have happened. I'd bet my life on a title in 06 for sure. Replace Avery with a great coach? Maybe the 07 Warriors series doesn't happen. It's not random that great coaches and teams with more than 1 great player usually win.


And I never said Dirk vs KG wasn't debatable. I just said it seems silly to say that Dirk was harder to build around given the evidence. KG didn't have near the success Dirk did when he was the man in Minny. But my guess is that you will blame management completely for that...which just seems a little hypocritical.

[mehyaM24]

Quality players Dirk has played with throughout his career:

Future Hall of Famers:

Steve Nash
Jason Kidd

All-Star/ All-Star Level Players:

Steve Nash
Michael Finley
Antawn Jamison
Josh Howard
Tyson Chandler
Caron Butler
Shawn Marion
Jason Terry
Jason Kidd
Devin Harris
Antoine Walker
Lamar Odom
Jerry Stackhouse
Nick Van Exel
Juwan Howard

Seasons Dirk/Mavs could've won Championships but didn't:

good post. guys like kobe, kg, and duncan would have AT LEAST 3-4 championships (each) with that kind of help.

the reason its difficult to build around dirk is because he's a jumpshooter...that plays no defense and is...more or less....one-dimensional. i mean, think about what he NEEDED in order to win. tyson chandler, a dpoy candidate and GREAT rebounder; shawn marion, one of the better perimeter defenders in the game; jason terry/barera, instant offense; jason kidd, one of the GOAT's at his position; peja/stevenson, solid 3PT shooters.

dirk needed ALL those guys to win a ring. :oldlol: could you imagine a prime kg or duncan with that kinda help? :eek:

[Mr Know It All]

good post. guys like kobe, kg, and duncan would have AT LEAST 3-4 championships (each) with that kind of help.

the reason its difficult to build around dirk is because he's a jumpshooter...that plays no defense and is...more or less....one-dimensional. i mean, think about what he NEEDED in order to win. tyson chandler, a dpoy candidate and GREAT rebounder; shawn marion, one of the better perimeter defenders in the game; jason terry/barera, instant offense; jason kidd, one of the GOAT's at his position; peja/stevenson, solid 3PT shooters.

dirk needed ALL those guys to win a ring. :oldlol: could you imagine a prime kg or duncan with that kinda help? :eek:

...when your post is so retarded it sounds sarcastic.:facepalm

[mehyaM24]

...when your post is so retarded it sounds sarcastic.:facepalm

its just the truth. fact is dirk has been playing for a contender as early as 2002.

kobe/kg/duncan/shaq would be lucky to have a consistent contender with a roster (top-to-bottom) better than 90% of the league. replace dirk, and here are the years kg & duncan win it all : 2003/2006/2007/2012

[brain drain]

its just the truth. fact is dirk has been playing for a contender as early as 2002.

kobe/kg/duncan/shaq would be lucky to have a consistent contender with a roster (top-to-bottom) better than 90% of the league. replace dirk, and here are the years kg & duncan win it all : 2003/2006/2007/2012

That's ridiculous.
- 2012 neither KG nor Ducan would've been able to generate enough offense especially in the 4th.
- In 2006, Duncan had at least as good a supporting cast, but lost - to Dirk.
- Both 2006 and 2007 teams were very dependent offensively on Dirk. Don't think KG or Duncan could've replaced his offense.
- In 2003, the Mavs were taking it to the Spurs but Dirk went down. If you replace an injured Dirk with a healthy Duncan or KG, they probably would've won. But if you'd replace an injured Dirk with a healthy Dirk, they probably would've won, too, so I don't know how it's reasonable to fault Dirk for that, especially since Dirk's generally not injury prone at all.

[2LeTTeRS]

Hard to build around both Dirk and Garnett, they're very unique

Its kind of hard to tell how easy it was was to build around KG. The Wolves cost themselves multiple draft picks with the Joe Smith deal and given Minnesota's market size and amount of money given to KG, the team wasn't willing/able to spend what other contenders did on his supporting cast.

Give peak/prime KG a team with the elite spending capacity and drafting ability that the Mavs have for the last decade, and you could expect that he would have had a lot more success than he experienced. He's basically the prototypical 4.

[spacebump]

Its kind of hard to tell how easy it was was to build around KG. The Wolves cost themselves multiple draft picks with the Joe Smith deal and given Minnesota's market size and amount of money given to KG, the team wasn't willing/able to spend what other contenders did on his supporting cast.

Give peak/prime KG a team with the elite spending capacity and drafting ability that the Mavs have for the last decade, and you could expect that he would have had a lot more success than he experienced. He's basically the prototypical 4.

You can say that all day but it doesn't make it true.

[MiamiThrice]

Its kind of hard to tell how easy it was was to build around KG. The Wolves cost themselves multiple draft picks with the Joe Smith deal and given Minnesota's market size and amount of money given to KG, the team wasn't willing/able to spend what other contenders did on his supporting cast.

Give peak/prime KG a team with the elite spending capacity and drafting ability that the Mavs have for the last decade, and you could expect that he would have had a lot more success than he experienced. He's basically the prototypical 4.

Dirk had just 4 all-stars on his team once he emerged as a franchise player and none of them were impressive all-stars. Josh Howard, Jason Kidd, Nash(2)

I'm not going to fault KG for not winning a title in Minnesota. What I will fault him for is two consecutive years missing the playoffs in his absolute peak. The difference between 2004 WCF and 2005 missing the playoffs was that Sam Cassell was no longer an elite player, and that was pretty much it. Cassell was a guy that could get you buckets when it mattered and a solid go-to scorer, something KG never was. It was a similar situation with Pierce in Boston which again is why KG was successfull.

He also got past the first round exactly one year there which is pretty pathetic as well.

The main difference between Dirk and KG is that Dirk can carry a team offensively and is pretty much unguardable while KG is not nearly as deadly in that regard and cannot carry a team. The team records support this statement. With franchise players dominating the game by putting it into the hoop is the most important thing, NOT THE ONLY THING, but the most important thing. There's a reason guys like Rodman and Bowen arn't argued as good as guys like Bird or Magic.

[2LeTTeRS]

Dirk had just 4 all-stars on his team once he emerged as a franchise player and none of them were impressive all-stars. Josh Howard, Jason Kidd, Nash(2)

I'm not going to fault KG for not winning a title in Minnesota. What I will fault him for is two consecutive years missing the playoffs in his absolute peak. The difference between 2004 WCF and 2005 missing the playoffs was that Sam Cassell was no longer an elite player, and that was pretty much it. Cassell was a guy that could get you buckets when it mattered and a solid go-to scorer, something KG never was. It was a similar situation with Pierce in Boston which again is why KG was successfull.

He also got past the first round exactly one year there which is pretty pathetic as well.

Don't give me this bull about all-star teammates when the Mavs have probably been a top 3 team in payroll over the last 10 years. Why does it matter if you do not have a star #2 option, when you have consistently had probably the best cast of 3rd-8th men in the entire league?

The main difference between Dirk and KG is that Dirk can carry a team offensively and is pretty much unguardable while KG is not nearly as deadly in that regard and cannot carry a team. The team records support this statement. With franchise players dominating the game by putting it into the hoop is the most important thing, NOT THE ONLY THING, but the most important thing. There's a reason guys like Rodman and Bowen arn't argued as good as guys like Bird or Magic.

If you are trying to prove scoring is the supposed "most important thing" then why did you choose probably the 2 most well-rounded players in Magic and Bird as your examples? I'd say KG has more in common with those 2 than Dirk (a pure scorer) ever did.