Better peak - Manu Ginobili vs. Ray Allen

[StateOfMind12]

Who do you guys think was better at their peaks/absolute best? I'm going with Manu but I want to see what you guys think.

[L.Kizzle]

:biggums:

[Noob Saibot]

bout to sleep, and I like both players. but I'll take Allen. That jumpshot is money.

[poido123]

Ginobili. Much more rounded player and super clutch.

[Killbot]

Ray Allen

[coin24]

Rayray:rockon:

[KG215]

This one is tough. Ginobili's numbers don't do him justice as a player. You almost have to look at his per-36 numbers to get a good gauge, because he is someone who is/was capable of handling that many minutes, but wasn't ever asked to do so due to his role and playing for Popovich who has always managed minutes more strictly than most coaches.

He was very good in the 2005 playoffs. I'd probably consider that his peak season although his regular season numbers were better in 2008. But in the 2005 playoffs he played at a very high level en route to a championship. Don't know if he's my answer, but I'm trying to put some food for thought out there for those that rush to to BBR to look at the stats and see Allen with the decisive advantage.

[Jacks3]

The guy who can play 40 MPG.

[TonyD]

Ray, hands down. I'll elaborate on this later when I have time, if this thread isn't dead.

[BlueandGold]

Obviously Allen..

[Gotterdammerung]

Ray Allen was awesome during the 2005 playoffs, but I'd pick Manu Ginobili every day of the week and twice on Sundays.
:kobe:
Allen's probably the greatest outside shooter in league history, but Ginobili is a proven champion who does everything at a high level.

Had Ginobili averaged 35-40 minutes per game, as well as sustained durability, he'd be one of the greatest guards in league history. Top 10 easily. As it is, his limited minutes curtail his total statistics, but he always produces on court in all categories, and best of all, in the clutch during the money season. :cheers:

[Haymaker]

Peak? Allen no doubt. Manu is still the better player though. :pimp:

[noosaman]

Ginobli by far. He's better at everything except 3 pt shooting

[SHAQisGOAT]

Ray-Ray but close. Ginobili's amazing throughout his career, but Ray had to be the main man.

[rmt]

Since the OP's question is better peak, the answer should be Manu, who is a better overall player.

If I had to choose 1 player for my team, I'd pick Ray hands down. Manu has played 10 years - 8 of them under 30 minutes/games (the other 2 were 30.3 and 31.1 mins/game). He is perfect as an energizer off the bench, but he cannot sustain it for long else the errors creep into his game (and he makes stupid, bone-headed mistakes like the foul on Dirk with 22 sec to go). He's also very fragile. Last year he played only 34 games. In 08-09, he played only 44. A player is not much good sitting on the bench. And it's not like Ray isn't clutch as hell too - that 3 pointer never gets old. Did I mention that Manu can't carry a team the way Ray did in SEA?

[noosaman]

Since the OP's question is better peak, the answer should be Manu, who is a better overall player.

If I had to choose 1 player for my team, I'd pick Ray hands down. Manu has played 10 years - 8 of them under 30 minutes/games (the other 2 were 30.3 and 31.1 mins/game). He is perfect as an energizer off the bench, but he cannot sustain it for long else the errors creep into his game (and he makes stupid, bone-headed mistakes like the foul on Dirk with 22 sec to go). He's also very fragile. Last year he played only 34 games. In 08-09, he played only 44. A player is not much good sitting on the bench. And it's not like Ray isn't clutch as hell too - that 3 pointer never gets old. Did I mention that Manu can't carry a team the way Ray did in SEA?

Thats simply not true. Manu blows up whenever Duncan misses a game. He would have easily put up the numbers ray Allen put up in Seattle. You're also forgetting that he came into the NBA as a 26 year old rookie so we never got to see him in the absolute athletic peak at his position.

[rmt]

Thats simply not true. Manu blows up whenever Duncan misses a game. He would have easily put up the numbers ray Allen put up in Seattle. You're also forgetting that he came into the NBA as a 26 year old rookie so we never got to see him in the absolute athletic peak at his position.

And how often does Duncan miss a game - talk about Mr. Consistency night in, night out, year after year. There is a reason why Pop restricts Manu's minutes even in his younger years. He played him less than 30 minutes even in his peak (04-05) year and one thing Pop isn't is stupid (not maximizing a player). Did you miss the stat that he's averaged more than 30 mins (30.3 and 31.1) only TWICE in his entire NBA career? Sorry but don't think that a player can carry a team (meaning being the man) putting up those kind of minutes - well, I guess, he could but the team wouldn't be winning many games. Manu can do it for short stretches but not game after game, season after season.

And what does athletic peak have to do with his best years? Manu was 28 and 31 in his best years (04-05, 07-08).

[Money 23]

How on earth could you take Ginobili over Ray Allen? Peak, prime, or career?

[IGOTGAME]

How on earth could you take Ginobili over Ray Allen? Peak, prime, or career?
I would take Peak Ginobili over Ray Allen. I've always though Ray Allen was overrated. I don't think he could have ever won a title as the second best player. He is too one dimensional and does not distort defenses like ginobili. Ginobili can create offense for himself and others better than ray and I value that. Plus he is a better competitor than Ray.

[Money 23]

I would take Peak Ginobili over Ray Allen. I've always though Ray Allen was overrated. I don't think he could have ever won a title as the second best player. He is too one dimensional and does not distort defenses like ginobili. Ginobili can create offense for himself and others better than ray and I value that. Plus he is a better competitor than Ray.
Negative on all that ...

Ray would've just as easily won a ring playing 3rd fiddle (Ginobili's actual role) to Tony Parker and TIM DUNCAN.

Ginobili is a baller, but lets not pretend he was ever a franchise guy like Ray Allen was for both the Bucks and Sonics.

[IGOTGAME]

Negative on all that ...

Ray would've just as easily won a ring playing 3rd fiddle (Ginobili's actual role) to Tony Parker and TIM DUNCAN.

Ginobili is a baller, but lets not pretend he was ever a franchise guy like Ray Allen was for both the Bucks and Sonics.

He was never a franchise guy by choice. He didn't leave to do it. But Ginobili was just as good as Parker and I think he has the skills to succeed as a number 1 or 2. Ray Allen just didn't do a lot of things well in his prime.

[Money 23]

But Ginobili was just as good as Parker and I think he has the skills to succeed as a number 1 or 2.
We'll never know ... Ray did it though.

[rmt]

How on earth could you take Ginobili over Ray Allen? Peak, prime, or career?

I can see an argument for peak - his 04-05 year was special. That Olympic gold performance was exceptional, and his 05 playoff run was superb. But not prime (especially where the regular season is concerned) and definitely not career. Pop maximizes (with the exception of Splitter) all his players and uses Manu perfectly off the bench. And Manu is a BIG time player on the big time stages - just not a franchise type guy. There are not many players I'd prefer if I needed a clutch basket or big play.

[rmt]

He was never a franchise guy by choice. He didn't leave to do it. But Ginobili was just as good as Parker and I think he has the skills to succeed as a number 1 or 2. Ray Allen just didn't do a lot of things well in his prime.

Ray Allen 20 pts / 3.6 asst / 4.2 reb in 36.9 mins - 18 years
Manu 15.2 pts / 3.9 asst / 4 reb in 27.9 mins - 10 years
Parker 16.8 pts / 5.9 asst / 3 reb in 32.9 mins - 11 years

Good luck with Manu as a franchise guy - Don't think a franchise guy can get by with less than 28 min/game over an entire career (unless you think Pop is not using him properly). This is my problem with a lot of posters on ISH - they look at a player's skill set and not what they actually accomplished on the court. That's a lot of what ifs and what could have beens but not what really happened.

Ray has a 20 pt average over 18 years. And that's without Tim Duncan drawing most of the defensive attention. He may not be as skilled as Manu, but what limited skill set he has still had better RESULTS.

[JohnnySic]

Ray Allen. Legit #1 option at his peak, although better suited as a #2.

Manu is a system player. Put him on a team as The Guy, and he's a glorified Hedo Turkoglu.

[tpols]

Ray Allen was awesome during the 2005 playoffs, but I'd pick Manu Ginobili every day of the week and twice on Sundays.
:kobe:
Allen's probably the greatest outside shooter in league history, but Ginobili is a proven champion who does everything at a high level.

Had Ginobili averaged 35-40 minutes per game, as well as sustained durability, he'd be one of the greatest guards in league history. Top 10 easily. As it is, his limited minutes curtail his total statistics, but he always produces on court in all categories, and best of all, in the clutch during the money season. :cheers:
But manu couldn't do that... We saw him get injured constantly without ever having to bear a real load.

This is like the cweb vs pau thread. Cwebb and ray are obviously better while pau and manu get by on hypothetical of what they could have but never did do.

[IGOTGAME]

Ray Allen 20 pts / 3.6 asst / 4.2 reb in 36.9 mins - 18 years
Manu 15.2 pts / 3.9 asst / 4 reb in 27.9 mins - 10 years
Parker 16.8 pts / 5.9 asst / 3 reb in 32.9 mins - 11 years

Good luck with Manu as a franchise guy - Don't think a franchise guy can get by with less than 28 min/game over an entire career (unless you think Pop is not using him properly). This is my problem with a lot of posters on ISH - they look at a player's skill set and not what they actually accomplished on the court. That's a lot of what ifs and what could have beens but not what really happened.

Ray has a 20 pt average over 18 years. And that's without Tim Duncan drawing most of the defensive attention. He may not be as skilled as Manu, but what limited skill set he has still had better RESULTS.

Because Ginobili was all about winning championships. He wasn't worried at all about his indivdual legact. Just because you are the best player on your team doesn't make you a franchise guy. I watched Ray Allen's career. He didn't impact basketball games as much as Ginobili because he can't create his own offense and he was a subpar defender for many years.

ginobili won 3 titles. You think he couldn't have put up 20 ppg game seasons in Seattle or on the Bucks...he didn't care about that, he was more worried about doing what it took to win games. When they moved Ray Allen to the bench in the playoffs he cried like a baby. When Ray Allen was stuck in Seattle(where he signed the K knowing they were gonna be bad) he did nothing but act jealous towards players who were winning. Guy played on bad teams by choice the majority of his career and then when he was finally asked to sacrifice for the good of the team he cried like a baby. Guy didn't care enough about winning to play defense or to expand expand his game. There is a reason why Ginobili is known as one of the fiercest competitors to ever play in the NBA. He does whatever it take to win games, even if that means taking a step back at times.

Give me Ginobili over Ray Allen any day of the week.

[tpols]

Plus he is a better competitor than Ray.
:roll:

[WockaVodka]

Manu, more clutch, better all-around, the only issue with him is his stamina.

Also, as a 3rd and 2nd option, Ray was clearly worse than Manu. Ray was really not that good with his tenure in Boston at least in the post-season.

[Money 23]

When did Ginobili become more skilled than Ray as well?

This comparison is remedial. Manu was a 6th man his entire career with good reason.

Ray Allen was a franchise guy for the majority of his career w/ good reason. And still won a ring in the Ginobili role (3rd option)

[EricForman]

How on earth could you take Ginobili over Ray Allen? Peak, prime, or career?

I understand that, for career, Ray Allen wins because of longevity, but there is definitely an argument for PEAK VS PEAK.

[Money 23]

I understand that, for career, Ray Allen wins because of longevity, but there is definitely an argument for PEAK VS PEAK.
No, there really isn't. One was a 6th man, the other a FRANCHISE player.

[EricForman]

Negative on all that ...

Ray would've just as easily won a ring playing 3rd fiddle (Ginobili's actual role) to Tony Parker and TIM DUNCAN.

Ginobili is a baller, but lets not pretend he was ever a franchise guy like Ray Allen was for both the Bucks and Sonics.

Ginobili was better than Tony Parker every year of their career until maybe 2011.

I've watched their entire run, once the game gets close in the 4th quarter, it's MANU who handles the ball and runs the point, when it's the final 10 seconds of a half or 4th quarter, it's Manu with the ball at the top of the key, his decision to make on whether to drive, diss, or pull up J.

(Actually, even in 2012 that is still the case.)

Manu was arguably the real Finals MVP in 2005 too.

Manu was never greater than Duncan but you're wrong if you think he was a third fiddle.

Also, Ray Allen as the man was never good enough to do much. I think, give Manu his own team for 7 years, he could manage a bunch of .500 seasons and one or two minor playoff run.

[Money 23]

Also, Ray Allen as the man was never good enough to do much. I think, give Manu his own team for 7 years, he could manage a bunch of .500 seasons and one or two minor playoff run.
That's a lot of "I think" and hypothetical.

We'll never know how he would've adjuster to alpha dog minutes, season rigors, defenses being dedicated to stopping him first for entire seasons.

The context makes them apples and oranges

[EricForman]

No, there really isn't. One was a 6th man, the other a FRANCHISE player.

Yes because Ginobili is a mere sixth man, like a CJ Watson right? Because every coach don't gush about the greatness of Ginobili, and because Ginobili didn't have ridiculous explosion games every time Duncan sits from 2004 to 2008, and because Manu doesn't almost always step up his game in big playoff games right?

And because Manu didn't whup Team USA's ass twice in 02 and 04, right?

[rmt]

All the things that make Manu great - the unpredictability, the spectacular play, the pizazz, the frenetic, all-out style just can't be sustained long enough to be a franchise player. It's great in big games because I don't think even he knows what he's going to do next - much less his opponent. But there is something to be said about consistent, night in, night out, season after season play. Not only is he injured a lot because of his style of play, but he takes a helluva long time to come back from injury and get into a rhythm to reach that level.

Pop gives him just enough space to create and do his "magic" and then reigns him in when he gets wild and crazy. Sometimes it seems that for every spectacular play he makes, he turns around and does a bone-headed one on the other end. But he is definitely the little "extra" that charges up the otherwise boring, predictable, system-oriented Spurs and energizes them.

[Money 23]

All the things that make Manu great - the unpredictability, the spectacular play, the pizazz, the frenetic, all-out style just can't be sustained long enough to be a franchise player. It's great in big games because I don't think even he knows what he's going to do next - much less his opponent. But there is something to be said about consistent, night in, night out, season after season play. Not only is he injured a lot because of his style of play, but he takes a helluva long time to come back from injury and get into a rhythm to reach that level.

Pop gives him just enough space to create and do his "magic" and then reigns him in when he gets wild and crazy. Sometimes it seems that for every spectacular play he makes, he turns around and does a bone-headed one on the other end. But he is definitely the little "extra" that charges up the otherwise boring, predictable, system-oriented Spurs and energizes them.
Someone who gets it.

If he was the dude people in here are claiming.

He wouldn't be a career guy coming off the bench.

[bizil]

I gotta take Ray over Manu. In the all around sense, Manu is one of the best SG's of all time. Manu is very versatile as well capable of playing PG, SG, and SF. But Ray is damn skilled all around himself and is arguably the greatest shooter ever. U gotta remember Ray in his Milwaukee and Seattle days to really get a gauge of how great he was. Ray is one of the few pure shooters (Price, Nash, Bird, and West as well) that were also very skilled in the all around sense. Plus Ray had athletic ability and handles that complemented his sharpshooting. Ray was very adept at slashing to the rack, finishing in the open court, and the midrange game.

[Bigsmoke]

Ray Allen

[IGOTGAME]

I gotta take Ray over Manu. In the all around sense, Manu is one of the best SG's of all time. Manu is very versatile as well capable of playing PG, SG, and SF. But Ray is damn skilled all around himself and is arguably the greatest shooter ever. U gotta remember Ray in his Milwaukee and Seattle days to really get a gauge of how great he was. Ray is one of the few pure shooters (Price, Nash, Bird, and West as well) that were also very skilled in the all around sense. Plus Ray had athletic ability and handles that complemented his sharpshooting. Ray was very adept at slashing to the rack, finishing in the open court, and the midrange game.
But Ray wasn't very good at those other things.

[rmt]

Here are the playoff minutes/game of franchise players:

Ray Allen 38.8
Pierce 39.6
KG 38.6
Duncan 39
Dwight Howard 39.4
Kobe 39.3
Kidd 40
Dirk 41.2
CP 40
Rose 41.8
Wade 40.3
Deron 40.4
Lebron 43.4

All of the franchise players play over 38 mins. Even players a tier lower:

Deng 39.7
Pau 38.7
Marion 37.7
Joe Johnson 38.7
Baron Davis 37

Manu 31

So, even when it counts the most, Pop, one of the smartest coaches around, only plays him 31 minutes in the playoffs. He's just not capable of producing at a very high level for long minutes.

[WockaVodka]

Ray was a franchise player but he was never good at it so that point is invalid.

[bizil]

But Ray wasn't very good at those other things.

But Ray didn't suck either. Ray played a lot of PG in his Seattle days. George Karl even had him doing it in Milwaukee. Which means Ray is an above average passer and ball handler for a SG. Does that mean he was a great passer at SG like MJ or West. Maybe not but Ray was a very good passer at his peak. In terms of scoring skillset, he had everything a PURE shooter could ask for OTHER than a postup game. Of that great era of SG's that included these two, Kobe, Vince, AI, TMac, Wade, Bron when he ran SG, and Pierce when he ran SG, Ray was the ONLY pure shooter of the bunch. Which means u gotta defend him in a different manner than the other guys.

[fsvr54]

In what world is Ray Allen more skilled than Manu? He can shoot better, but he is not a better passer, slasher, thinker etc

[TheBigVeto]

Who do you guys think was better at their peaks/absolute best? I'm going with Manu but I want to see what you guys think.

You are correct sir. Manu is 2nd GOAT SG, of course he's better than Ray Allen.
Not hating on Ray, he's great and a top 10 GOAT SG. But he's not better than Manu.

[upside24]

I'd rather have Manu on my team. The fact that he is a 6th man and Allen has better numbers doesn't matter to me. Allen was the main guy on his team while Manu was a complementary player to Duncan so obviously numbers wise Allen will best him.

When I watch Manu play I see a crafty slasher who can defend and set up his teammates and is not afraid to take and make big shots. With Allen I just see one of the best shooters ever. IMO Manu has a bigger impact on the game.

[WockaVodka]

People must have forgot how many times Ray would miss the playoffs when he was on his own.

[LBJFTW]

Pointless argument for career unless you value hypothetical results.

Peak for Peak (which is what this thread should be about) Manu > Allen.

He simply was just better at more facets of the game when he was playing. It's not about how many minutes you play, it's about how much of an impact you have during those minutes.

[Boston C's]

only on ish would a guy who is a career 30 minute per game guy in the season and playoffs better then a guy who was the face of his team for a decade...ray was drafted to be the man despite what some ppl may think and it irks the hell out of me that ppl say "all ray could do was shoot" those ppl are probably the ones who have been watching basketball from 2008 and on...when ray was the man he had to do it all and could do it all for his team...ray was an ALL AROUND scorer/player and legit played the point for both milwaukee in seattle...hell in 2004 ray ran point all season long...ginobli is a great player but he is absolutely not on ray rays level simply because he could not carry a team...ppl say he wanted to win and thats great but manu was smart...if he was a true competitor he would have shown that he wanted to win with his own team but he wasn't dumb he knew he couldnt do it and pop knew manu couldnt sustain franchise player minutes...if manu knew he could have done it then he would have went elsewhere to do so so that alone makes manu not on rays level for peak, prime, longevity, everything...the amount of disrespect ray gets from some ppl on ish disgusts me..."all he could do was shoot and he sucked at everything else" dont make me laugh seriously

[SCdac]

Pointless argument for career unless you value hypothetical results.

Peak for Peak (which is what this thread should be about) Manu > Allen.

He simply was just better at more facets of the game when he was playing. It's not about how many minutes you play, it's about how much of an impact you have during those minutes.

this

[L.Kizzle]

I'll take the starter of the bench player.

[Boston C's]

[QUOTE=Jacks3]The guy who can play 40 MPG.[/QUOT

this pretty much sums it up

[WockaVodka]

It's kind of funny considering how Ray came off teh bench last year.

[RaininTwos]

It's kind of funny considering how Ray came off teh bench last year.

Kind of funny considering how last year wasn't his peak.

I can't believe this is even a real question. You guys are crazy.

[WockaVodka]

Kind of funny considering how last year wasn't his peak.

I can't believe this is even a real question. You guys are crazy.
Manu wasn't coming off the bench at his peak either.

[bizil]

Many people confuse the better all around player with the better player. Manu in the all around sense is indeed one of the best SG's of his era, possibly of all time. But u have a guy like Sidney Moncrief who all around wise is EASILY a top 10 SG ever. But answer this for me, is Moncrief better than George Gervin? I would take Ice over Moncrief all day. For one durability wise. And for two, Gervin could CONSISTENTLY DOMINATE a game scoring like no other SG arguably EVER until MJ came around. A dominant scorer like that can be the better player than a guy who is the better all around player. For me to take a SG over Gervin, u gotta be a guy like MJ, Kobe, West, Wade, Drexler, or a prime T Mac. Which is a SG capable of dominating scoring just as good AND have a great all around game to go with it.

In the case of Ray vs. Manu, Ray was an above average all around player like Manu. But I will give Manu the nod. But Ray could dominate a game scoring CONSISTENTLY year in and year out in a manner that Manu never really showed. So considering these factors, I gotta go with Ray. In Ray's last season in Seattle he put up 26.4 points, 4 boards, and 4 dimes. His career high in boards is 5.6 and in dimes 5.9 Those numbers PROVE Ray was a very good all around player. U are basically looking at a guy who can get u 26 points, 6 boards, and 6 dimes from the SG in a year peak value wise. But Manu was indeed a part of that golden era of SG's. These guys should all get in the HOF at some point:

Kobe
AI
Vince
Ray
Wade
Manu

T-Mac might even sneak in as well. He has 7 All NBA Teams as well as 7 All Star games. And u can't forget Bron and Pierce, but they will go in as SF's. But both played plenty of SG and were listed as SG a lot of the time in the 2000s.

[RaininTwos]

Manu wasn't coming off the bench at his peak either.
Yes he was.

[WockaVodka]

Yes he was.
His peak was in 2005 and he started in every game, so no.

[Boston C's]

His peak was in 2005 and he started in every game, so no.

whew man I'll surely take the guy whose peak was 16,4, and 4 and not play more then 30 minutes over the guy who could put up 26,5,5 and be the franchise guy for a whole decade :rolleyes:

[L.Kizzle]

It's kind of funny considering how Ray came off teh bench last year.
Like the last few games ... of his 16th season, lol.

[WockaVodka]

whew man I'll surely take the guy whose peak was 16,4, and 4 and not play more then 30 minutes over the guy who could put up 26,5,5 and be the franchise guy for a whole decade :rolleyes:
If you adjust Manu's stats to per 36, they were pretty much 20/5/5 under terrific efficiency. In the 2005 playoffs, Manu averaged 20/5/5 with 33 mpg.

Again, his numbers weren't high because he wasn't the #1 option, he was the 2nd option behind Tim Duncan. Ray would play behind Duncan too.

Also, I wouldn't call Ray a legitimate franchise guy. He was the franchise player for the Sonics and the Bucks but he wasn't very good at it. How many times did he miss the playoffs? If I had to take a guess, it was about as many times as he made the playoffs as the leader.

[RaininTwos]

His peak was in 2005 and he started in every game, so no.
That was his peak season?:lol

You sure brah?

[Boston C's]

If you adjust Manu's stats to per 36, they were pretty much 20/5/5 under terrific efficiency. In the 2005 playoffs, Manu averaged 20/5/5 with 33 mpg.

Again, his numbers weren't high because he wasn't the #1 option, he was the 2nd option behind Tim Duncan. Ray would play behind Duncan too.

Also, I wouldn't call Ray a legitimate franchise guy. He was the franchise player for the Sonics and the Bucks but he wasn't very good at it. How many times did he miss the playoffs? If I had to take a guess, it was about as many times as he made the playoffs as the leader.

Well for one the fact that the sonics were able to push the spurs to six games and in the final seconds is beyond me because that playoff team was horrible...plus we had no rashard lewis for half the series and our 3rd leading scorer radmonovic was out too...yea radman was our 3rd leading scorer :rolleyes:

in milwaukee they went to 7 games with the sixers in 01 and that series is still talked about as being rigged in favor of philly because they were a better marquee matchup against the lakers...and i hate this per 36 bullcrap...manu couldnt play franchise player minutes PERIOD...if he knew he could he woulda left and done it because when you feel you can do that you want to prove your the best and can and clearly he knew he couldnt carry a team night in and night out like ray did for the majority of his career...answer me this as well...is manu better then guys like tracy mcgrady who never made it out the first round? how about paul pierce who shared pretty much the exact same success as ray allen before they came together...hes certainly not better then any of those guys

[WockaVodka]

.is manu better then guys like tracy mcgrady who never made it out the first round? how about paul pierce who shared pretty much the exact same success as ray allen before they came together...hes certainly not better then any of those guys
peaks? No, because those two were better as individual players than Manu were. Manu on the other hand was better as an individual player than Ray was.

Ray is only better than Manu at shooting, that's not to say Ray can only shoot and do nothing else. It's just that Manu was better than Ray at everything else.

Every time Ray went deep in the post-season or in the post-season at all, his team was very good and pretty close to stacked.

[L.Kizzle]

peaks? No, because those two were better as individual players than Manu were. Manu on the other hand was better as an individual player than Ray was.

Ray is only better than Manu at shooting, that's not to say Ray can only shoot and do nothing else. It's just that Manu was better than Ray at everything else.

Every time Ray went deep in the post-season or in the post-season at all, his team was very good and pretty close to stacked.
YEah, because Rashard Lewis, Danny Fortson, Glenn Robinson and Sam Cassell and Tim Thomas mean you have a stacked team.

[Boston C's]

peaks? No, because those two were better as individual players than Manu were. Manu on the other hand was better as an individual player than Ray was.

Ray is only better than Manu at shooting, that's not to say Ray can only shoot and do nothing else. It's just that Manu was better than Ray at everything else.

Every time Ray went deep in the post-season or in the post-season at all, his team was very good and pretty close to stacked.

I still disagree that manu was a better individual player then ray...hell in terms of passing manu is better then ray, pierce and mcgrady but that doesnt make him a better player then them...ray to me is just flat out better...and rays playoff teams werent good at all that sonics team was absolute shit...look who we had at our frontline that yr...jerome james, vivaly potapenko, etc...just pure garbage...our point guard situation was decent at best with ridnour basically a rookie at the time and we all know hes a decent pg at best and daniels as our backup...ray was the guy and he had a nice second option in lewis but the team was utter garbage...i remember everyone picking them to finish last in the west that yr which says a lot...also the 2001 bucks team had himself glenn and cassell but again ray never played with a good frontline...i always wondered how much he could have accomplished if he played with a decent pf/c before boston i mean seriously his best player was arguably nick collison at pf...that shit is just not cutting it

[WockaVodka]

YEah, because Rashard Lewis, Danny Fortson, Glenn Robinson and Sam Cassell and Tim Thomas mean you have a stacked team.
The teams he had in the 2005 Sonics and 2001 Bucks had more than those guys.

Sonics especially. They let go of Antonio Daniels, Jerome James, Vlad Rad misses about half of the season, and lose their head coach in Nate McMillian, and all of a sudden they go from a 3rd seeded playoff team out West to missing the playoffs? 50 win team to a 30 win team. That makes no sense to me.

Ray is far more dependent on help than most people realize.

[L.Kizzle]

The teams he had in the 2005 Sonics and 2001 Bucks had more than those guys.

Sonics especially. They let go of Antonio Daniels, Jerome James, Vlad Rad misses about half of the season, and lose their head coach in Nate McMillian, and all of a sudden they go from a 3rd seeded playoff team out West to missing the playoffs? 50 win team to a 30 win team. That makes no sense to me.

Ray is far more dependent on help than most people realize.
I think that goes for everyone.

[MiamiThrice]

wockavodka Can You Please Let Me Know If The Broncos Won Monday Night Football This Week! My Tv Was Out.

[Nero Tulip]

Big Ray Allen fan but I think Manu had a better peak.

Hard to compare though, very different kind of player. Depending on the team I would chose a different one if I had to pick.

[Whoah10115]

Manu may arguably not have had a season as good as Ray's in either 04/05 or 05/06 (tho you can argue otherwise)...and Ray's series vs. Sacramento is one of the best this decade.



But I think Manu does more in the big moments and only doesn't stand out as much because Pop likes to contain his players, individually...but I certainly think Manu at his best over Ray at his best...but not necessarily the same as a true peak.

[Anaximandro1]

Ray is great,but I'd take 2005 Manu



But I think Manu does more in the big moments and only doesn't stand out as much because Pop likes to contain his players, individually

Pop routinely kills the stats of our best players,but it always works in the long run.

[Boston C's]

The teams he had in the 2005 Sonics and 2001 Bucks had more than those guys.

Sonics especially. They let go of Antonio Daniels, Jerome James, Vlad Rad misses about half of the season, and lose their head coach in Nate McMillian, and all of a sudden they go from a 3rd seeded playoff team out West to missing the playoffs? 50 win team to a 30 win team. That makes no sense to me.

Ray is far more dependent on help than most people realize.

look at those names real closely again...how is that "help" for christ sake you just named jerome freakin james who was the epitome of garbage, vlad rad was our 3rd best player...when vlad is anyones 3rd best player thats not exactly a good thing for your team...antonio daniels was a serviceable backup at best...we went to 30 wins the next yr because that team overachieved period...go look at the preseason predictions for that 04-05 sonics team...everyone picked them to finish dead last in the division and in the west...that sonics team was nowhere near loaded and the fact that ray led that team to 50 plus wins and a near upset of san antonio without two of his best players is a ridiculous accomplishment

rays peak is far greater than manus and its not close because manu's peak was limited...manu couldnt sustain the minutes for a franchise player otherwise he would have so this thread is absolute nonsense

[Whoah10115]

look at those names real closely again...how is that "help" for christ sake you just named jerome freakin james who was the epitome of garbage, vlad rad was our 3rd best player...when vlad is anyones 3rd best player thats not exactly a good thing for your team...antonio daniels was a serviceable backup at best...we went to 30 wins the next yr because that team overachieved period...go look at the preseason predictions for that 04-05 sonics team...everyone picked them to finish dead last in the division and in the west...that sonics team was nowhere near loaded and the fact that ray led that team to 50 plus wins and a near upset of san antonio without two of his best players is a ridiculous accomplishment

rays peak is far greater than manus and its not close because manu's peak was limited...manu couldnt sustain the minutes for a franchise player otherwise he would have so this thread is absolute nonsense



Jerome James was great in that Sacramento series tho. He looked capable of being an all-star. Fat man had some serious post moves. I was just hoping that the Knicks would not sign him...and of course...

[Boston C's]

Jerome James was great in that Sacramento series tho. He looked capable of being an all-star. Fat man had some serious post moves. I was just hoping that the Knicks would not sign him...and of course...

jerome looked great in that series and it kinda offset rashard lewis playing ridiculously awful...but at the same time if you really watched that series jerome was getting easy dunks off pick and rolls from ray allen and luke ridnour...rays assists went up significantly because sacremento was doubling him and tripling him so ray most of the time found jerome james for an open dunk...against san antonio though it was pretty much back to reality :lol

[Boston C's]

I would take Peak Ginobili over Ray Allen. I've always though Ray Allen was overrated. I don't think he could have ever won a title as the second best player. He is too one dimensional and does not distort defenses like ginobili. Ginobili can create offense for himself and others better than ray and I value that. Plus he is a better competitor than Ray.

totally disagree...hell i think ray could have one as the number 1 option if he had a decent big man in his prime to play with

[Whoah10115]

I don't remember Ray playing PG in Seattle. At least not in those two great years. Ridnour was playing very well.



jerome looked great in that series and it kinda offset rashard lewis playing ridiculously awful...but at the same time if you really watched that series jerome was getting easy dunks off pick and rolls from ray allen and luke ridnour...rays assists went up significantly because sacremento was doubling him and tripling him so ray most of the time found jerome james for an open dunk...against san antonio though it was pretty much back to reality :lol



This is true, but James did have post moves. He even played defesne in that series. And I'd never heard of him...he was straight up playing for a contract and the greatest example in sports history of someone playing for a contract. Allen was remarkable in that series. That was one of my favorite teams of the whole decade.

[Boston C's]

I don't remember Ray playing PG in Seattle. At least not in those two great years. Ridnour was playing very well.






This is true, but James did have post moves. He even played defesne in that series. And I'd never heard of him...he was straight up playing for a contract and the greatest example in sports history of someone playing for a contract. Allen was remarkable in that series. That was one of my favorite teams of the whole decade.

Don't get me wrong jerome was fantastic against the kings but besides game 3 against the spurs he was pretty much a no show again... against the kings he feasted on the pick and roll, the kings keying in on allen as well as their weak frontcourt...in the regular season he was awful i think put up 4 and 3...so its remarkable that we were able to win 52 games that yr...the knicks basically paid jerome for one series...literally...he did nothing the entire season then in a first round series he absolutely torched it and the knicks gave him that contract