If Lebron loses to Kobe in the finals. will people say Kobe is the best again

[kennethgriffin]

its a what have you done for me lately society.

remember when dirk beat lebron in the finals. he was a god until the mavs started to suck again


NBA finals mvp
NBA champion
1st team all nba
27-28ppg/5reb/5ast

:confusedshrug:



if you give kobe what lebron has. and kobe wins. that makes him better IMO

we all saw how the world/media did a 180 on kobe vs lebron the last 2 times kobe won the title

magic and west both saying "lebron passed kobe this year"

then after kobe won the title

magic and west "we spoke too soon. kobes the best again"

history repeats itself



so who here will say kobe is once again the best player if he takes home his 3rd finals mvp in 5 years?

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa280/cashforcards/refewqf.png

[PyrrhusX]

What is it with some people already chalking up who is going to be in the finals? For all we know its going to be Cleveland and Hornets.

Smh.

[plowking]

You have to be the best on your team first.

[kennethgriffin]

You have to be the best on your team first.

so you're saying a guy who quit because he cant lead a team and ran to kobe bryant is the best player on the lakers ?

dwights tallented. hes good for the future. but he has allot to learn

[Bandito]

If Kobe plays like the best could happen.

[GreatGreg]

He wouldn't lose to Kobe, he'd lose to Dwight.

[plowking]

so you're saying a guy who quit because he cant lead a team and ran to kobe bryant is the best player on the lakers ?

dwights tallented. hes good for the future. but he has allot to learn

Yes.

You do know its possible for a traded player to be the best on the team?

[kennethgriffin]

He wouldn't lose to Kobe, he'd lose to Dwight.

i'd be willing to bet 500$ american on paypal that kobe outperforms dwight and takes hom finals mvp if the lakers won the title

you down?

[keepinitreal]

If Lebron loses to Kobe in the finals. will people say Kobe is the best again

yes.

"It is the....... most....... example............ of society."

[kennethgriffin]

Yes.

You do know its possible for a traded player to be the best on the team?

not when the guy who was already there is named kobe bryant. top 6-7 all time nba player who is still 1st team all nba and took that traded player to school in the finals in a 4-1 beat down

lol prime or not. kobes the leader of LA and i doubt howard has any chance at finals mvp

[GreatGreg]

i'd be willing to bet 500$ american on paypal that kobe outperforms dwight and takes hom finals mvp if the lakers won the title

you down?
Good joke. An old balls Kobe Bryant won't be outperforming a prime Dwight. :roll:
On top of that I'd also do a 1-year avy bet.

[Dictator]

Good joke. An old balls Kobe Bryant won't be outperforming a prime Dwight. :roll:
On top of that I'd also do a 1-year avy bet.


My predictions:

Kobe: 25-28ppg 5 5 45%
Dwight: 19 13 1 2.5blks 58%

[red1]

The only way kobe will be considered the best in the league is if he plays as though he is the best. Winning another championship will be another feather in the ol' cap but it won't automatically give the status of best player in the nba, what kind of logic is that

[Rockets(T-mac)]

This forum is going to be nuts this season, with the Lakers and Miami fanboys busting a nut everytime they win a game or something....

[kennethgriffin]

Good joke. An old balls Kobe Bryant won't be outperforming a prime Dwight. :roll:
On top of that I'd also do a 1-year avy bet.


well... take the bet then. i could use an extra 500$

kobe was quoted saying "i'l retire the day i cant average his current 25-27 ppg anymore. he said he isnt hanging around like a bum who averages 18-19"


well guess what dwights been averaging every god damn year? 18-19

you think as the 1st option at 18ppg he will all of a sudden take over kobes role on LA and average MORE than he ever did on orlando?

good luck BRAH

:lol :oldlol: :roll:

[TheeBeast]

Good joke. An old balls Kobe Bryant won't be outperforming a prime Dwight. :roll:
On top of that I'd also do a 1-year avy bet.
Accept his bet then

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww46/JennyOwnsBrielle/Reaction%20images/689320-20anger_management20animated_gif20jack_nicholson20 reaction_image.gif

[kennethgriffin]

My predictions:

Kobe: 25-28ppg 5 5 45%
Dwight: 19 13 1 2.5blks 58%


seriously... dwight can rebound like wilt... it still wont be worth more to finals mvp voters than 10+ppg in kobes favor

parker won mvp over duncan by scoring more

billups won finals mvp over big ben by scoring more

and pierce won finals mvp over KG by scoring more


10 more points is worth more than 6-7 more rebounds

[LakersFan626]

You have to be the best on your team first.

He still is.

Kobe wouldn't be held to MULTIPLE single digit games against a top defender like Dwight did against Chandler, and Kobe has much more of a winning mentality and killer instinct than Dwight. Dwight's the more efficient player but that does not make him the better player. If FG% was the main thing to decide the best player than guys like Tyson Chandler and Nene would be in the top 10...

[TheBigVeto]

so who here will say kobe is once again the best player if he takes home his 3rd finals mvp in 5 years?



Only the 'tards will do that.

[tmacattack33]

If he plays like the best player in the league next year then sure why not.


That's very doubtful tho

[kennethgriffin]

Only the 'tards will do that.


so you'l say it?

[funnystuff]

its a what have you done for me lately society.

remember when dirk beat lebron in the finals. he was a god until the mavs started to suck again


NBA finals mvp
NBA champion
1st team all nba
27-28ppg/5reb/5ast

:confusedshrug:



if you give kobe what lebron has. and kobe wins. that makes him better IMO

we all saw how the world/media did a 180 on kobe vs lebron the last 2 times kobe won the title

magic and west both saying "lebron passed kobe this year"

then after kobe won the title

magic and west "we spoke too soon. kobes the best again"

history repeats itself



so who here will say kobe is once again the best player if he takes home his 3rd finals mvp in 5 years?

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa280/cashforcards/refewqf.png
Nope, remind me.

[swag2011]

Kennethgriffin, i'm a huge kobe/laker stan, but i hope for your sake that lakers win this chip this year. I can just imagine them bumping all these threads if lakers lose or kobe plays poorly.

that said, let's get ready for number 17th and 6th for kobe :cheers:

[StateOfMind12]

LBJ would lose to Dwight, not Kobe.

Why won't people understand that Kobe is not that great anymore? He is declining, it happens, it happens to every player.

The people who are still saying Kobe is the best player on the Lakers is just a good test to see who is a Kobe fan or a Lakers fan though.

[funnystuff]

LBJ would lose to Dwight, not Kobe.

Why won't people understand that Kobe is not that great anymore? He is declining, it happens, it happens to every player.

The people who are still saying Kobe is the best player on the Lakers is just a good test to see who is a Kobe fan or a Lakers fan though.
This.

[Heavincent]

So the Lakers won because of Pau in 09 and 10 (even though Kobe was obviously a much better player), but if the Lakers win this year it will be all because of Howard and Kobe will have nothing to do with it?

Hysterical.

[avonbarksdale]

kobe cannot lose to lebron he will not let it happen

[EnoughSaid]

Dwight will be guarded by Chris Bosh, Joel Anthony, Udonis Haslem while Kobe would be guarded by LeBron James, Shane Battier, Dwyane Wade and Ray Allen.. see the difference? :confusedshrug:

[avonbarksdale]

gawdbe is too mentally strong to lose to someone as mentally unstable as lebron, kobe would **** with lebron so bad a la this tweet:

@RealSkipBayless
Know what MJ would've done to LeBron in an NBA Finals? Terrorized him psychologically. Told him he would freeze up and choke and he would've

[DixieNourmous]

This thread is the hallmark of insanity.
http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/disgusted/grand/wb_disgust.gif

Gawd I want the season to start.

[BlackVVaves]

Griffey, Griffey, Griffey. god I hope you aren't like this in real life. Would be such a waste of space.

No Griffin, an aging Kobe would not suddenly resurrect the "best in the league" text with a Finals win over Bron in your hypothetical flawed world. What type of nonsense logic is that? Did any reasonable human being consider Dirk a better player than Lebron in 2011? How about in 2008, was Pierce suddenly the best player in the world after the Celtics eliminated the Lakers?

No. But because your Kobe print comforter hasn't been keeping you as warm as usual at night, you want to develop some farfetched concept that helps you sleep past midnight in mommy's house?

Like, grow up dude. You wear your age, or mental limitations, far too well around here. At least act like you've experienced some sort of adult-like progression in your thought processes. Kobe isn't even the best player on his team when all things are even - a healthy Dwight is. Now, Kobe might be the better scorer even still at his age, and if he found himself in a championship-clinching game, that scoring prowess would undoubtedly be rewarded with another FMVP for his collection. But, at this point of his career, it would take a nearly perfect...and, EFFICIENT....year from Kobe for him to have the impact a healthy Dwight would have. Both season, and off-season. And even then I still doubt he'll be a better player than Lebron.

In a hypothetical Finals match-up, it could be, albeit doubtful, possible that Kobe has a better series than Lebron. But in terms of his place in impact and production at this juncture of his career? Kobe will never again be the better player when comparing to Lebron.

All-Time? Yes. Current time? NO.

[RRR3]

Current Kobe isn't close to current LeBron so meh. Dwight is the best on the Lakers anyways.

[RRR3]

Griffey, Griffey, Griffey. god I hope you aren't like this in real life. Would be such a waste of space.

No Griffin, an aging Kobe would not suddenly resurrect the "best in the league" text with a Finals win over Bron in your hypothetical flawed world. What type of nonsense logic is that? Did any reasonable human being consider Dirk a better player than Lebron in 2011? How about in 2008, was Pierce suddenly the best player in the world after the Celtice eliminated the Lakers?

No. But because your Kobe print comforter hasn't been keeping you as warm as usual at night, you want to develop some farfetched concept that helps you sleep past midnight in mommy's house?

Like, grow up dude. You wear your age, or mental limitations, far too well around here. At least act like you've experienced some sort of adult-like progression in your thought processes. Kobe isn't even the best player on his team when all things are even - a healthy Dwight is. Now, Kobe might be the better scorer even still at his age, and if he found himself in a championship-clinching game, that scoring prowess would undoubtedly be rewarded with another FMVP for his collection. But, at this point of his career, it would take a nearly perfect...and, EFFICIENT....year from Kobe for him to have the impact a healthy Dwight would have. Both season, and off-season. And even then I still doubt he'll be a better player than Lebron.

In a hypothetical Finals match-up, it could be, albeit doubtful, possible that Kobe has a better series than Lebron. But in terms of his place in impact and production at this juncture of his career? Kobe will never again be the better player when comparing to Lebron.

All-Time? Yes. Current time? NO.

Griff logic:
LeBron averages 40-10-10 on 60% in finals.
Kobe averages 18-3-3 on 30% in finals.

Lakers beat Heat in 7 games.


"Gawdbe>LeBron :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: "

[Stern]

If Lakers end up winning the championship Dwight will most likely be F-MVP.

[TheBigVeto]

so you'l say it?

Hell no, I'm not a Laker fan.
Only Laker fans are retards.

[fpliii]

griff - if Kobe outplays LeBron while they are guarding each other, then yes

[longtime lurker]

Oh ISH. So if Kobe wins finals MVP he won't be the best player on his team? According to ISH logic.

[RRR3]

Oh ISH. So if Kobe wins finals MVP he won't be the best player on his team? According to ISH logic.
Cedric Maxwell best player on the 1981 Celtics :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

According to longtime lurker logic.

[kennethgriffin]

Griff logic:
LeBron averages 40-10-10 on 60% in finals.
Kobe averages 18-3-3 on 30% in finals.

Lakers beat Heat in 7 games.


"Gawdbe>LeBron :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: "


na... my logic is

lebron averages 27/7/7 on 50% on mostly drives

kobe averages 28/6/5 on 46% with allot of mid range shooting

lakers beat heat

kobe wins finals mvp


gawdbe>lebron in the publics eye

[fpliii]

Oh ISH. So if Kobe wins finals MVP he won't be the best player on his team? According to ISH logic.

08 Pierce, 07 Parker, 04 Billups, 89 Dumars, 88 Worthy, 81 Maxwell, weren't, and a few others are arguable (not talking about Kobe here though)

if they guard each other and while doing so one outperforms the other and his team wins the series, then yes it can be said

[longtime lurker]

Cedric Maxwell best player on the 1981 Celtics :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

According to longtime lurker logic.

FMVP are the end all and be all according to ISH :bowdown:

[longtime lurker]

08 Pierce, 07 Parker, 04 Billups, 89 Dumars, 88 Worthy, 81 Maxwell, weren't, and a few others are arguable (not talking about Kobe here though)

if they guard each other and while doing so one outperforms the other and his team wins the series, then yes it can be said

We're not talking about outperforming each other. We're talking about the best player on the winning team. Dwyane Wade could win finals MVP and according to ISH logic he'd be the best player in the league :confusedshrug:

[kennethgriffin]

If Lakers end up winning the championship Dwight will most likely be F-MVP.


regardless of the effectiveness either of kobe or howard have at their current age. we could argue all day

forget about rankings or worth

forget about anything anyone thinks or says and ask yourself this question

"do i -so and so- believe deap down in my heart that kobe bryant wont take enough shots to win finals mvp." he could shoot 40% and if they somehow found a way to win. kobe would still be at 27-30ppg in the finals. you know it.. i know it. and howard knows it


i might be wrong. maybe kobe will be too old. but that wont stop him from winning finals mvp lol

he'l win it or go down with the ship


"i eat first" - Kobe Bryant


he'l retire before becoming #2 again. why do you think hes retiring in 2-3 years? he knows itel be impossible to convince people that hes worthy of taking 20+ shots by the age of 37

not even he could convince himself of that

but for now... he can get away with it. and as long as he can. hes gonna do it


mark my god damn words. kobes taking home finals mvp if LA wins a title next year. i'd bet every person on this message board 100$ each of it happening

[BlackVVaves]

Oh ISH. So if Kobe wins finals MVP he won't be the best player on his team? According to ISH logic.

2008 - Pierce was the best player on the Celtics?

2007 - Parker was the best player on the Spurs?

[fpliii]

We're not talking about outperforming each other. We're talking about the best player on the winning team. Dwyane Wade could win finals MVP and according to ISH logic he'd be the best player in the league :confusedshrug:

well last season (10-11) he would've been considered the best player on the Heat had he won, since he and LeBron played about evenly in that year's playoffs; this season that just finished, no; if he bounces back from injury, he has a shot

[Yao Ming's Foot]

08 Pierce, 07 Parker, 04 Billups, 89 Dumars, 88 Worthy, 81 Maxwell, weren't, and a few others are arguable (not talking about Kobe here though)

if they guard each other and while doing so one outperforms the other and his team wins the series, then yes it can be said

Did LeBron outplay Durant (30.6 ppg 54.8%FG .394 3PT% ) in the Finals?

[kennethgriffin]

08 Pierce, 07 Parker, 04 Billups, 89 Dumars, 88 Worthy, 81 Maxwell, weren't, and a few others are arguable (not talking about Kobe here though)

if they guard each other and while doing so one outperforms the other and his team wins the series, then yes it can be said


well to be fair...


kobe bryant is ranked waaaaaaaaaaaaay ahead of howard all time


beat him in the finals before

and is a 1st team all nba player

none of those guys mentiond have any of this going for them

itel be hard to convince the public that dwight howard was the best player on a team that won the title with kobe as finals mvp

[fpliii]

Did LeBron outplay Durant (30.6 ppg 54.8%FG .394 3PT% ) in the Finals?

I don't know how they did while guarding one another, but PPG/shooting isn't everything. If you want to make it a stats debate, and can bring up the numbers for each guy and show that KD played LeBron better, then I'd have no problem saying he didn't.


well to be fair...


kobe bryant is ranked waaaaaaaaaaaaay ahead of howard all time

beat him in the finals before

and is a 1st team all nba player

none of those guys mentiond have any of this going for them

I don't care about all-NBA teams or any other media awards. Kobe was the best player that series, but teams beat teams. Kobe didn't guard Dwight and vice versa.

[tmacattack33]

regardless of the effectiveness either of kobe or howard have at their current age. we could argue all day

forget about rankings or worth

forget about anything anyone thinks or says and ask yourself this question

"do i -so and so- believe deap down in my heart that kobe bryant wont take enough shots to win finals mvp." he could shoot 40% and if they somehow found a way to win. kobe would still be at 27-30ppg in the finals. you know it.. i know it. and howard knows it


i might be wrong. maybe kobe will be too old. but that wont stop him from winning finals mvp lol

he'l win it or go down with the ship


"i eat first" - Kobe Bryant


he'l retire before becoming #2 again. why do you think hes retiring in 2-3 years? he knows itel be impossible to convince people that hes worthy of taking 20+ shots by the age of 37

not even he could convince himself of that

but for now... he can get away with it. and as long as he can. hes gonna do it


mark my god damn words. kobes taking home finals mvp if LA wins a title next year. i'd bet every person on this message board 100$ each of it happening

Just because he'll want the Finals MVP more than Dwight doesn't mean he will get it.

If he puts up 30 ppg on terrible efficiency while gunning for the MVP and ignoring teammates and breaking LA's offensive sets, then that means he didn't really play that great, and I think the voters will be smart enough not to vote for him.

[kennethgriffin]

I don't know how they did while guarding one another, but PPG/shooting isn't everything. If you want to make it a stats debate, and can bring up the numbers for each guy and show that KD played LeBron better, then I'd have no problem saying he didn't.



I don't care about all-NBA teams or any other media awards. Kobe was the best player that series, but teams beat teams. Kobe didn't guard Dwight and vice versa.

leaders at center have the same responsibility to carry teams to championships as the best player of their team just as much as the guy on the other team who plays a different position

it never is about a 1 on 1 matchup ... its about making others better by drawing double teams and leading by example..

dwight couldnt break the doubles and score or make the right passes when it mattered. kobe did

teams win titles. but whos leading them matters

dwights not a good leader. hes soft. hes a perfect #2 beside a guy whos proven



kobe beat dwight. not 1 on 1... but as a leader

[fpliii]

leaders at center have the same responsibility to carry teams to championships as the best player of their team just as much as the guy on the other team who plays a different position

no, not all positions are created equal

it never is about a 1 on 1 matchup ... its about making others better by drawing double teams or leading by example..

right, but the only way to determine who is definitively better (key word here is definitively) is by winning the series and outplaying the player in question while going up against him

dwight couldnt break the doubles and score or make the right passes when it mattered. kobe did

Kobe outplayed Dwight, but it wasn't that simple

teams win titles. but whos leading them matters

dwights not a good leader. hes soft. hes a perfect #2 beside a guy whos proven

with the teams he's had, hard to be a proven leader, isn't it? we certainly can't close the book on him being a #1 guy yet (though I'm not convinced that a center can be a #1 guy in today's game, tbh)

:pimp:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I don't know how they did while guarding one another, but PPG/shooting isn't everything. If you want to make it a stats debate, and can bring up the numbers for each guy and show that KD played LeBron better, then I'd have no problem saying he didn't.


Durant crushed him on efficiency, LeBron had about 4 more rebounds and 5 more assists per game. :confusedshrug: . My point is LeBron is given the nod over him because he won, not because he particularly outplayed him.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2012_finals.html

[kennethgriffin]

Just because he'll want the Finals MVP more than Dwight doesn't mean he will get it.

If he puts up 30 ppg on terrible efficiency while gunning for the MVP and ignoring teammates and breaking LA's offensive sets, then that means he didn't really play that great, and I think the voters will be smart enough not to vote for him.


http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa280/cashforcards/grfewg.jpg

you must be new to the sport of basketball


what kobe wants. kobe gets... or he dies/fails trying

only way kobe doesnt get finals mvp is if he somehow shoots 20% in the finals with his 25+ shots per game lol

[KG215]

na... my logic is

lebron averages 27/7/7 on 50% on mostly drives

kobe averages 28/6/5 on 46% with allot of mid range shooting

lakers beat heat

kobe wins finals mvp


gawdbe>lebron in the publics eye

What does how they get their points have to do with anything. Who cares if Kobe gets his mostly off jumpers and LeBron gets his in and around the paint? That doesn't make Kobe the better player. You don't even have to include that part of your post.

If Kobe averages 28/6/5 on 46% to LeBron's 27/7/7 on 50% shooting, and the Lakers win and he wins Finals MVP then, yes, it's possible he would've been better than LeBron in that series. (Although it's impossible to say since those raw numbers never tell the entire story, especially in a playoffs series.) However, it still wouldn't all of a sudden make Kobe the consensus best player in the NBA heading into 2013-2014.

I love your threads Griff. While they're almost always senseless, ignorant, and downright stupid, they're always very entertaining.

[fpliii]

Durant crushed him on efficiency, LeBron had about 4 more rebounds and 5 more assists per game. :confusedshrug: . My point is LeBron is given the nod over him because he won, not because he particularly outplayed him.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2012_finals.html

I don't have the numbers while guarding one another, so I can't make that judgement. Sefolosha guarded LeBron some possessions, Battier guarded Durant a bit. I actually like KD more than LeBron in general, so if the numbers back it up I'd have no problem agreeing with you.

[longtime lurker]

2008 - Pierce was the best player on the Celtics?

2007 - Parker was the best player on the Spurs?

I'm just using ISH logic when it comes to finals mvp's. Like lebron is=larry bird even with less titles because he has 2 finals mvp's. It's funny that according to ISH its impossible for Kobe to ever be the best player on a championship team no matter how he plays. Like they can't wrap their head around the fact that he could outplay Dwight Howard, yet after Dirk won he was proclaimed the best in the league despite not being a top 5 player in 2011.

[KG215]

Durant crushed him on efficiency, LeBron had about 4 more rebounds and 5 more assists per game. :confusedshrug: . My point is LeBron is given the nod over him because he won, not because he particularly outplayed him.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2012_finals.html

No, LeBron clearly outplayed Durant in the Finals and was already considered the better player (maybe by a small margin) going into the Finals. I mean do you even watch the games? Because you seem to be obsessed with stats and only stats.

Durant's my favorite player but even I'll admit LeBron outplayed Durant in the Finals. It wasn't as close as the numbers made it look, either. LeBron had a much more significant impact on the defensive end and it was his dribble penetration that opened up wide-open three after wide-open three for Battier, Chalmers, Miller, and Cole; which ultimately was the deciding factor in the series. If all the Heat role players don't get hot from three then they probably lose one or two more games, and they're in OKC for a game six or seven. And the reason they were able to get hot from three is because LeBron's penetration opened things up for them.

Now, I strongly disagree with any of the trolls that claim Durant is just a one-dimensional player (shooter/scorer) and is really overrated, but in that series he was outplayed by LeBron. And besides, LeBron was already considered the best player in the league before the Finals. I know there was some debate between he and Durant but anyone that watched the regular season and playoffs knew the "best player in the NBA" belonged to LeBron. He still is/was a better playmaker and defender.

[longtime lurker]

Just because he'll want the Finals MVP more than Dwight doesn't mean he will get it.

If he puts up 30 ppg on terrible efficiency while gunning for the MVP and ignoring teammates and breaking LA's offensive sets, then that means he didn't really play that great, and I think the voters will be smart enough not to vote for him.

Good thing the voters aren't retarded haters like you.

[BlackVVaves]

What does how they get their points have to do with anything. Who cares if Kobe gets his mostly off jumpers and LeBron gets his in and around the paint? That doesn't make Kobe the better player. You don't even have to include that part of your post.

If Kobe averages 28/6/5 on 46% to LeBron's 27/7/7 on 50% shooting, and the Lakers win and he wins Finals MVP then, yes, it's possible he would've been better than LeBron in that series. (Although it's impossible to say since those raw numbers never tell the entire story, especially in a playoffs series.) However, it still wouldn't all of a sudden make Kobe the consensus best player in the NBA heading into 2013-2014.



This.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

No, LeBron clearly outplayed Durant in the Finals and was already considered the better player (maybe by a small margin) going into the Finals.

Durant's my favorite player but even I'll admit LeBron outplayed Durant in the Finals. It wasn't as close as the numbers made it look, either. LeBron had a much more significant impact on the defensive end and it was his dribble penetration that opened up wide-open three after wide-open three for Battier, Chalmers, Miller, and Cole.

Now, I strongly disagree with any of the trolls that claim Durant is just a one-dimensional player (shooter/scorer) and is really overrated, but in that series he was outplayed by LeBron. And besides, LeBron was already considered the best player in the league before the Finals. I know there was some debate between he and Durant but anyone that watched the regular season and playoffs knew the "best player in the NBA" belonged to LeBron. He still is/was a better playmaker and defender.

Battier, Chalmers, Miller and Cole have had wide open threes all season. They just happened to get hot. It happens. It had nothing to do with LeBron any more than all those misses by roleplayers against the Magic when he was with the Cavs were his fault. Ariza and Odom did it once upon a time for the Lakers as well.

Let's be serious here. No player has ever received the kind of defensive hype LeBron has when his counterpart across from him averaged nearly 30+ points a game on 55% shooting. LeBron is probably the biggest and strongest player on the team so sometimes they had him in the post. For that reason people like to pretend he is Dennis Rodman or something. It's silly. The Thunder had an offensive rating of 110 or better in 4 out of the 5 games. The one game they didn't Durant put up 25 on 58% shooting. I fail to see how defense specifically Lebron's defense was the difference in the series.

[kennethgriffin]

This.

what happend after the playoffs in 2009 and 2010?

lebron averaged slightly better numbers for a while now. probably since 2008

but that didnt stop kobe from being looked at as the best player in the world after he won finals mvp those 2 years

in the publics eye. a box office guy wins finals mvp. hes the best. period



















THIS

[Hands of Iron]

No, LeBron clearly outplayed Durant in the Finals and was already considered the better player (maybe by a small margin) going into the Finals. I mean do you even watch the games? Because you seem to be obsessed with stats and only stats.

Durant's my favorite player but even I'll admit LeBron outplayed Durant in the Finals. It wasn't as close as the numbers made it look, either. LeBron had a much more significant impact on the defensive end and it was his dribble penetration that opened up wide-open three after wide-open three for Battier, Chalmers, Miller, and Cole; which ultimately was the deciding factor in the series. If all the Heat role players don't get hot from three then they probably lose one or two more games, and they're in OKC for a game six or seven. And the reason they were able to get hot from three is because LeBron's penetration opened things up for them.

Now, I strongly disagree with any of the trolls that claim Durant is just a one-dimensional player (shooter/scorer) and is really overrated, but in that series he was outplayed by LeBron. And besides, LeBron was already considered the best player in the league before the Finals. I know there was some debate between he and Durant but anyone that watched the regular season and playoffs knew the "best player in the NBA" belonged to LeBron. He still is/was a better playmaker and defender.

Kind of reminds me of the 1995 Finals in a way.

[fpliii]

what happend after the playoffs in 2009 and 2010?

lebron averaged slightly better numbers for a while now. probably since 2008

but that didnt stop kobe from being looked at as the best player in the world after he won finals mvp those 2 years

in the publics eye. a box office guy wins finals mvp. hes the best. period



















THIS

you've sold me, preach on bro :cheers:

[Cali Syndicate]

na... my logic is

lebron averages 27/7/7 on 50% on mostly drives

kobe averages 28/6/5 on 46% with allot of mid range shooting

lakers beat heat

kobe wins finals mvp


gawdbe>lebron in the publics eye

Kobe's career average in the finals is like 40% and you think he's gonna score on 46% clip against the best perimeter defense in the league? Funny.

[BlackVVaves]

I'm just using ISH logic when it comes to finals mvp's. Like lebron is=larry bird even with less titles because he has 2 finals mvp's. It's funny that according to ISH its impossible for Kobe to ever be the best player on a championship team no matter how he plays. Like they can't wrap their head around the fact that he could outplay Dwight Howard, yet after Dirk won he was proclaimed the best in the league despite not being a top 5 player in 2011.

Outside of momentarily climactic Mavs fans, no reasonable person actually believed Dirk was the best player in the league in 2011.

Being the best player in the playoffs doesn't mean you are the best player in the NBA. Your performance is notable, but doesn't allow you to jump 4-6 players to #1.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Kobe's career average in the finals is like 40% and you think he's gonna score on 46% clip against the best perimeter defense in the league? Funny.

Kevin Durant put up 30 points on 55% shooting on the "best perimeter defense in the league". :roll:

[KyrieTheFuture]

Kevin Durant put up 30 points on 55% shooting on the "best perimeter defense in the league". :roll:
Kevin Durant is vastly more efficient than Kobe. So the point still stands.

[EnoughSaid]

Does anyone actually think Kobe will be able to put up 28/6/5 on 46% with LeBron, Battier, Allen and Wade guarding him? :wtf: Miami is arguably the best defensive team in the league... especially if they clamp down on someone.

[Nevaeh]

Kevin Durant put up 30 points on 55% shooting on the "best perimeter defense in the league". :roll:

Key words Dude.
:rolleyes:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Kevin Durant is vastly more efficient than Kobe. So the point still stands.

Not really. Durant in the Finals was more efficient than he was the rest of the playoffs. In what world is that the definition of a lock down defense. The Heat would challenge the Pacers for the worst Finals defense Kobe has ever faced.

[Round Mound]

Dwight Howard = The Best Center in the Game is the Reason Why the Lakers Will Win the 2013 Championship

Kobe`s Team is Stacked with the Best Center in the NBA, A Top 3-4 PF/CF in Gasol, a Top Defensive Player in Artest etc

Few Have Been as Lucky as Kobe Bryant In Terms of Talent in his Team

[Mr. Jabbar]

so you're saying a guy who quit because he cant lead a team and ran to kobe bryant is the best player on the lakers ?

dwights tallented. hes good for the future. but he has allot to learn

Kenneth, you are a wise man.

[Cali Syndicate]

Kevin Durant put up 30 points on 55% shooting on the "best perimeter defense in the league". :roll:

Durant is already a three time scoring champ and is 23 years old in his prime.

Kobe will be 34 and on the tail end of his prime.

You're funny too.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Durant is already a three time scoring champ and is 23 years old in his prime.

Kobe will be 34 and on the tail end of his prime.

You're funny too.


Yeah its not like he just dropped 33 points on them on 61% shooting a few months ago.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201203040LAL.html

[Cali Syndicate]

Yeah its not like he just dropped 33 points on them on 61% shooting a few months ago.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201203040LAL.html

And what did he shoot the other game?

What about the games from the season before?

1 game at 61%.

3 games at ~38%.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

And what did he shoot the other game?

What about the games from the season before?

1 game at 61%.

3 games at ~38%.

Averaged 28.5 ppg on 50% shooting last year when he was at his peak age and washedupness.

:confusedshrug:

[Cali Syndicate]

Averaged 28.5 ppg on 50% shooting last year when he was at his peak age and washedupness.

:confusedshrug:

Guess Lebron and Wade better watch out. :confusedshrug:

[KG215]

Battier, Chalmers, Miller and Cole have had wide open threes all season. They just happened to get hot. It happens. It had nothing to do with LeBron any more than all those misses by roleplayers against the Magic when he was with the Cavs were his fault. Ariza and Odom did it once upon a time for the Lakers as well.

Let's be serious here. No player has ever received the kind of defensive hype LeBron has when his counterpart across from him averaged nearly 30+ points a game on 55% shooting. LeBron is probably the biggest and strongest player on the team so sometimes they had him in the post. For that reason people like to pretend he is Dennis Rodman or something. It's silly. The Thunder had an offensive rating of 110 or better in 4 out of the 5 games. The one game they didn't Durant put up 25 on 58% shooting. I fail to see how defense specifically Lebron's defense was the difference in the series.

I'd have to see the exact %'s of who guarded Durant, but I thought Battier defended him as much or maybe just a little less than LeBron.

Anyway, your original question was did LeBron outplay Durant and all you did was post his scoring numbers and the efficiency. Anyone that watched that series will tell you that, yes, LeBron outplayed Durant.

And that series didn't make people consider LeBron better than Durant. LeBron's body of work in the regular season, playoffs, and the 2-3 seasons prior is what made people consider LeBron better than Durant.

Durant just finished his age 23 season. He's already an incredibly gifted and efficient scorer, but he can improve in other areas of his game. I'm not claiming LeBron is some all-time great Rodman level defender. I actually think that, after this season, his defense has become slightly overrated; but Durant is not close to LeBron's level as a defender.

Someone mentioned the '95 Finals. While Hakeem outscored Shaq, O'Neal averaged 28 ppg on 60% shooting (to Hakeem's 48%), averaged more rebounds, assists, and blocks than Hakeem, too. No one, though, was saying O'Neal is better than Hakeem after that series.

[KG215]

Kind of reminds me of the 1995 Finals in a way.

The more I've looked into the '95 Finals the last few weeks, the more parallels I've seen to it and this year's Finals.

While Hakeem was the best center and best player in the NBA at the time (I know Jordan was back in time for the '95 Finals, but at that point I'm taking Hakeem) at his peak going against a young center who was still "figuring it out" while still being supremely gifted and putting up good numbers on paper.

The only difference in LeBron and Durant is that, not only are they the two best players at their position, but they're arguably the two best players in the league. The 27 year old at his peak LeBron outplayed Durant, despite Durant putting up better scoring numbers on very good efficiency. But, like the '95 Finals, the box scores and stats don't come close to really telling the entire story of the series. And like the '95 Finals, Durant's/Shaq's team was just one or two fourth quarter buckets and/or fourth quarter stops from winning two more games and extending the series to 6 or 7 games.

The Nick Anderson four missed FT game one is an obvious one, but what game was it Robert Horry hit a backbreaking three to turn a tied or one point game into a 3-4 point lead for Houston in the final seconds? I mean that's two games that, if the Magic make one or two more FT's and/or get one or two more stops, they win and the series goes at least six games. Nevermind Harden being a no-show (I mean what happens if he has one of his patented 22-5-5 games where he makes 2-3 backbreaking threes in game 3 or 4?) what about the games where OKC, normally an exceptional FT shooting team - shoots better than 60-something percent?

[Hands of Iron]

I'd have to see the exact %'s of who guarded Durant, but I thought Battier defended him as much or maybe just a little less than LeBron.

Anyway, your original question was did LeBron outplay Durant and all you did was post his scoring numbers and the efficiency. Anyone that watched that series will tell you that, yes, LeBron outplayed Durant.

And that series didn't make people consider LeBron better than Durant. LeBron's body of work in the regular season, playoffs, and the 2-3 seasons prior is what made people consider LeBron better than Durant.

Durant just finished his age 23 season. He's already an incredibly gifted and efficient scorer, but he can improve in other areas of his game. I'm not claiming LeBron is some all-time great Rodman level defender. I actually think that, after this season, his defense has become slightly overrated; but Durant is not close to LeBron's level as a defender.

Someone mentioned the '95 Finals. While Hakeem outscored Shaq, O'Neal averaged 28 ppg on 60% shooting (to Hakeem's 48%), averaged more rebounds, assists, and blocks than Hakeem, too. No one, though, was saying O'Neal is better than Hakeem after that series.

Was I, of course. And nope, absolutely nobody. Olajuwon's offensive capability and versatility to get pretty much whatever/whenever shots he wanted was far greater than O'Neal's, particularly the '95 version. Olajuwon didn't thoroughly dominate against him as he did Robinson in the WCF just before that series and Ewing in the Finals the year prior, but the numbers were definitely a bit misleading.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I'd have to see the exact %'s of who guarded Durant, but I thought Battier defended him as much or maybe just a little less than LeBron.

Anyway, your original question was did LeBron outplay Durant and all you did was post his scoring numbers and the efficiency. Anyone that watched that series will tell you that, yes, LeBron outplayed Durant.

And that series didn't make people consider LeBron better than Durant. LeBron's body of work in the regular season, playoffs, and the 2-3 seasons prior is what made people consider LeBron better than Durant.

Durant just finished his age 23 season. He's already an incredibly gifted and efficient scorer, but he can improve in other areas of his game. I'm not claiming LeBron is some all-time great Rodman level defender. I actually think that, after this season, his defense has become slightly overrated; but Durant is not close to LeBron's level as a defender.

Someone mentioned the '95 Finals. While Hakeem outscored Shaq, O'Neal averaged 28 ppg on 60% shooting (to Hakeem's 48%), averaged more rebounds, assists, and blocks than Hakeem, too. No one, though, was saying O'Neal is better than Hakeem after that series.

I linked to the finals composite numbers. They don't support the idea that LeBron outplayed Durant. He had more rebounds and assists but Durant was much more efficient. At worst, it was a wash. By pointing out these numbers it doesn't mean I didn't "watch the games".

If somebody else was guarding Durant then who was LeBron guarding? Why was Lebron guarding somebody other than the Thunder's best player? In what games would you say the Heat shut down the Thunder offense? Where can I view Lebron's superior defensive impact in this series compared to Kevin Durant?

Perhaps I didn't word it clearly enough but if we assign LeBron credit for the Heat roleplayers making threepointers doesn't that mean we should assign blame to LeBron for the Cavs roleplayers for missing threepointers in the playoffs as well?

People think Hakeem outplayed Shaq because they were swept. The same is the reason why most people think LeBron outplayed Durant. Prior to that Durant had less playoff success than Lebron so there was nothing to challenge the "pecking order". To the victor go the spoils. If the Mike Miller and Shane Battier don't hit 60% of their 3 pters and the Thunder take the series plenty of people would consider Durant the best player in the league.

[BlackVVaves]

what happend after the playoffs in 2009 and 2010?

lebron averaged slightly better numbers for a while now. probably since 2008

but that didnt stop kobe from being looked at as the best player in the world after he won finals mvp those 2 years

in the publics eye. a box office guy wins finals mvp. hes the best. period

















THIS


What are you rambling about?

Bron has, without a doubt, been better than Kobe since 2010, at least. And, probably since 2009, but that's arguable at least.

2010 - Bron was better.
2011 - Bron was better.
2012 - Bron was better.

[KG215]

Was I, of course. And nope, absolutely nobody. Olajuwon's offensive capability and versatility to get pretty much whatever/whenever shots he wanted was far greater than O'Neal's, particularly the '95 version. Olajuwon didn't thoroughly dominate against him as he did Robinson in the WCF just before that series and Ewing in the Finals the year prior, but the numbers were definitely a bit misleading.

Exactly. The "Hakeem obliterated Shaq" myth has gotten a little too out of hand over the years. Yes, if you watch the games, like the '12 Finals, Hakeem outplayed Shaq, but not probably not the same mythical proportions some of have built up in their heads. It was just a young Shaq, who was having commitment and discipline problems on defense, while just out-athleting you on offense. He was still a little too young and hadn't learned, just yet, how to win.

jlauber made a thread a while back pointing out how so many all-time greats reached their statistical peaks in their early and mid-20s. Of course he was using that to claim it was the actual peak of the players, but it did open my eyes to something. Other posters pointed out that those players didn't reach their true peak until age 27 (give or take a year) when they put everything together and learned how to win.

[creepingdeath]

Just lock this thread.

http://ww2.sinaimg.cn/bmiddle/82246ea6gw1dwj98l5404g.gif

[KG215]

I linked to the finals composite numbers. They don't support the idea that LeBron outplayed Durant. He had more rebounds and assists but Durant was much more efficient. At worst, it was a wash. By pointing out these numbers it doesn't mean I didn't "watch the games".

If somebody else was guarding Durant then who was LeBron guarding? Why was Lebron guarding somebody other than the Thunder's best player? In what games would you say the Heat shut down the Thunder offense? Where can I view Lebron's superior defensive impact in this series compared to Kevin Durant?

Perhaps I didn't word it clearly enough but if we assign LeBron credit for the Heat roleplayers making threepointers doesn't that mean we should assign blame to LeBron for the Cavs roleplayers for missing threepointers in the playoffs as well?

People think Hakeem outplayed Shaq because they were swept. The same is the reason why most people think LeBron outplayed Durant. Prior to that Durant had less playoff success than Lebron so there was nothing to challenge the "pecking order". To the victor go the spoils. If the Mike Miller and Shane Battier don't hit 60% of their 3 pters and the Thunder take the series plenty of people would consider Durant the best player in the league.

Battier, I though, guarded Durant plenty. LeBron, especially in some fourth quarters, made Durant work his ass off just to get open. I don't need all your stats to tell me Durant didn't have much of a defensive impact. He just didn't. He was constantly in foul trouble and jsut struggled defensively all together in the series.

And no, it wasn't a wash between he and LeBron. LeBron outplayed Durant. Period.

I'm not saying LeBron deserves the credit or getting those guys open looks from three. What I am saying is that due to his ability to get to the hole, he sucked the defense in leaving those guys open. LeBron made the right choice plenty of times to kick the ball out, and his teammates made the wide-open shot.

I agree with the rest of your post, although I'm not sure how long the "Durant is the best player in the league" talk would've lasted several months into the season when the Heat are 15-20 games above .500 and LeBron is posting another 28-7-7 50% season. Given how well he perfromed all season and postseason, even if OKC beat Miami in the Finals, I still would be hesitant to call LeBron the best player in the league.

And unless Kobe just goes bonkers he's not going to be considered the best or even second best player in the league heading into the following season.

[kennethgriffin]

What are you rambling about?

Bron has, without a doubt, been better than Kobe since 2010, at least. And, probably since 2009, but that's arguable at least.

2010 - Bron was better.
2011 - Bron was better.
2012 - Bron was better.


the world majority wise accepted kobe as the best player in basketball after the 2010 title.. you're a re*tard if you think otherwise. every poll i ever saw had kobe by a landslide during his 3 year run in the finals

lebron hasnt had a majority ruling until he proved himself in this years run

[fpliii]

the world majority wise accepted kobe as the best player in basketball after the 2010 title.. you're a re*tard if you think otherwise. every poll i ever saw had kobe by a landslide during his 3 year run in the finals

lebron hasnt had a majority ruling until he proved himself in this years run

griff - Why do you keep citing popularity and polls? Not that I have a huge problem with the bolded claim, but I know you can think for yourself, so no need to bring that up. Also, can you provide some links, if you want to discuss those polls?

[9erempiree]

Griff got some good points considering that people are all over the Finals MVP.

People thought of Dirk as a career loser and suddenly he wins and people said he was the best.

Lebron is the flavor of the month right now because he won, so it's not far fetch to say Kobe would be considered the best again with the public if he wins another Finals MVP. 6 rings would definitely be legitimate.

Lebron is on the same level as Dirk right now, as far as I'm concerned.

[BlackVVaves]

the world majority wise accepted kobe as the best player in basketball after the 2010 title.. you're a re*tard if you think otherwise. every poll i ever saw had kobe by a landslide during his 3 year run in the finals

lebron hasnt had a majority ruling until he proved himself in this years run

I'm a retard for not sharing the opinion of polls voted on by casual ESPN addicts who spend most their time being given opinions instead of formulating their own by actually watching NBA games and players every night of the season?

Interesting. So, polls by the media are acceptable now, huh lil Griffey? But wait, didn't you say two weeks ago to fpliii that awards based on popularity or media member's perceptions like the MVP are baseless? When you were discrediting Lebron's 3 MVPs?

So, first it's, "Bron's MVPs don't count, look at the people who vote for it, it's a joke!" and now its "Kobe was the best player in the league in 2010 and 2011, look at the popular polls that fans voted on!"

You might want to retract that retard statement. Seems you'll be needing to use that title the next time you run into the guy on the other end of your mom's bathroom mirror :roll:

[BlackVVaves]

Griff got some good points considering that people are all over the Finals MVP.

People thought of Dirk as a career loser and suddenly he wins and people said he was the best.

Lebron is the flavor of the month right now because he won, so it's not far fetch to say Kobe would be considered the best again with the public if he wins another Finals MVP. 6 rings would definitely be legitimate.

Lebron is on the same level as Dirk right now, as far as I'm concerned.

There is a reason why you and Griffey agree. Similar to the reason why you both share multiple negs on your account.

Do you want to know why you do?


?



..



Because you're both ****ing idiots.



Dirk on the same level as Bron? Cotdamn you two are slow :roll:

[coin24]

Lebron was a laughing stock until he teamed up and finally won a title:lol
Since when was he the best since 09??:roll:

How 1 title changes retards minds, just like dirk was the goat last yr, now he's a bum:facepalm

[BlackVVaves]

Lebron was a laughing stock until he teamed up and finally won a title:lol
Since when was he the best since 09??:roll:

How 1 title changes retards minds, just like dirk was the goat last yr, now he's a bum:facepalm

Can't believe I'm saying this :facepalm but...

Where's pauk when you actually need him? :oldlol:


2008-2009
Kobe --> 27 PPG | 5 RPG | 5 APG | 2 SPG | 47% FG, 56% TS
Lebron --> 28 PPG | 8 RPG | 7 APG | 2 SPG | 1 BPG | 49% FG, 59% TS


I originally said 2009 was arguable, and that solely was because Kobe had the most efficient year of his prime while leading his team to a championship, with stellar performances in the playoffs (such as the WCF against Denver). However, Lebron has him beat in literally every statistical facet of the game, to a laughable extent when I consider stans like you think Kobe was the best player in the league, "and it's not even close." :oldlol: I've maintained over the years that 2009 was a toss-up between Kobe, LeBron, and Wade, with Kobe obviously having the best year due to his championship. But again, for you simple-minded ****s out there, having the more successful year ("successful" by the means of a championship) doesn't mean that player was the best player in the league.

So, for 2009 I'll just say it's a reasonable tie. Now, on to 2010.


2009-2010
Kobe --> 27 PPG | 5 RPG | 5 APG | 2 SPG | 46% FG, 55% TS
Lebron --> 30 PPG | 9 RPG | 7 APG | 2 SPG | 1 BPG | 50% FG, 60% TS


No explanation needed. If you think Kobe was a better overall player than LeBron this year, then you really do see things out of the ****-molded shades you made out of Kobe's exfoliated skin.

Next, 2011.


2010-2011
Kobe --> 25 PPG | 5 RPG | 5 APG | 1 SPG | 45% FG, 55% TS
Lebron --> 27 PPG | 8 RPG | 7 APG | 2 SPG | 51% FG, 61% TS


Again, no explaination needed. Though, I would like to note that Kobe was having a very efficient season before the finger and other injuries began nagging him. His FG% for the second half of the seaon reflected this - I think he shot something like 48% before January, and 42% after January. I could be wrong though, going off of memory.

Anyway. LeBron was the better player this year as well. And I'm sure I don't have to bring up this past season for you to see that LeBron was the better player.

Now, go drink some milk and take your ass to bed.

[coin24]

Can't believe I'm saying this :facepalm but...

Where's pauk when you actually need him? :oldlol:


2008-2009
Kobe --> 27 PPG | 5 RPG | 5 APG | 2 SPG | 47% FG, 56% TS
Lebron --> 28 PPG | 8 RPG | 7 APG | 2 SPG | 1 BPG | 49% FG, 59% TS


I originally said 2009 was arguable, and that solely was because Kobe had the most efficient year of his prime while leading his team to a championship, with stellar performances in the playoffs (such as the WCF against Denver). However, Lebron has him beat in literally every statistical facet of the game, to a laughable extent when I consider stans like you think Kobe was the best player in the league, "and it's not even close." :oldlol: I've maintained over the years that 2009 was a toss-up between Kobe, LeBron, and Wade, with Kobe obviously having the best year due to his championship. But again, for you simple-minded ****s out there, having the more successful year ("successful" by the means of a championship) doesn't mean that player was the best player in the league.

So, for 2009 I'll just say it's a reasonable tie. Now, on to 2010.


2009-2010
Kobe --> 27 PPG | 5 RPG | 5 APG | 2 SPG | 46% FG, 55% TS
Lebron --> 30 PPG | 9 RPG | 7 APG | 2 SPG | 1 BPG | 50% FG, 60% TS


No explanation needed. If you think Kobe was a better overall player than LeBron this year, then you really do see things out of the ****-molded shades you made out of Kobe's exfoliated skin.

Next, 2011.


2010-2011
Kobe --> 25 PPG | 5 RPG | 5 APG | 1 SPG | 45% FG, 55% TS
Lebron --> 27 PPG | 8 RPG | 7 APG | 2 SPG | 51% FG, 61% TS


Again, no explaination needed. Though, I would like to note that Kobe was having a very efficient season before the finger and other injuries began nagging him. His FG% for the second half of the seaon reflected this - I think he shot something like 48% before January, and 42% after January. I could be wrong though, going off of memory.

Anyway. LeBron was the better player this year as well. And I'm sure I don't have to bring up this past season for you to see that LeBron was the better player.

Now, go drink some milk and take your ass to bed.



Cool stats essay:applause: Are you related to Pauk??

You can compare stats all you like, Kobe was in 3 straight finals and playing amazing ball... LeBron was choking and quitting on his team in Cleveland.

I rate on the court performances higher than stats, because I, unlike half the retards on here, actually watch the games...

Last season LeBron finally got over his mental issues and had a great year. Not sure how that all of a sudden makes him the games greatest for the past 4 years:facepalm


And to answer the original question of course. Its ISH. Home of what have you done for me lately:oldlol:

[BlackVVaves]

So to be clear, you think Kobe was the best player in the league until this past 2011-2012 season?

[9erempiree]

Cool stats essay:applause: Are you related to Pauk??

You can compare stats all you like, Kobe was in 3 straight finals and playing amazing ball... LeBron was choking and quitting on his team in Cleveland.

I rate on the court performances higher than stats, because I, unlike half the retards on here, actually watch the games...

Last season LeBron finally got over his mental issues and had a great year. Not sure how that all of a sudden makes him the games greatest for the past 4 years:facepalm


And to answer the original question of course. Its ISH. Home of what have you done for me lately:oldlol:

I agree with everything.

Like you, I also, watch the game with my eyes. It's just ironic how Kobe was dominating those 3 years and going to the Finals while Lebron was choking.

Suddenly, Lebron wins a ring and it's suppose to elevate his past years or even erase the memory of him choking? What a joke of logic that is from the Lebron fans. It's like we should pretend he won rings and how his stats were great with Cleveland but at the time, he was labeled a choker.

Only on ISH where one ring can validate for many years of choking. Let's also forget he teamed up with Wade and Bosh too.:facepalm

[coin24]

So to be clear, you think Kobe was the best player in the league until this past 2011-2012 season?

So to be clear, you cant read... Go and interpret it however you please, but the facts are Kobe was in the finals, LeBron was choking away series he should have been winning.

When did being a basketball fan become only about stats and ranking players:facepalm Try watching some games..

You really think LeBron finally winning a ring last year makes all his previous embarassments go away?

[All Net]

No because lakers overall better balance would be the reason lakers would beat Miami.

Lebron is the best in the game him losing wont change that

[KOBE143]

When was LeBron became the best player? :confusedshrug: I think Kobe is better than him and still the best in the league just like Shaq and Jordan in 1998.. Shaq has the better stats but people still choose Mike as the best and better player.. For me LeBron and Kobe are the same as Shaq and MJ in 1998..

LeBron = better stats
Kobe = better player

therefore Kobe >> LeBron

[guy]

Lets be honest. The Heat could push the Lakers to 7 games, with Lebron averaging 34/10/8 on 54% with Wade out injured, Bosh only averaging 14/6 getting destroyed by Howard and Gasol inside, and Ray/Shard/Battier having a horrible shooting series, and with Kobe averaging 25/5/4 on 40% with Howard averaging 21/17 on 60%, Gasol averaging 19/11 on 60%, and Nash averaging 15/10 on 60/50/100, and you will have a large group of people saying Kobe is better then Lebron.

To add to that, Kobe could then have a similar series the year after to win his 7th title, and a large group of people will say he's better then Jordan.

Sad and pathetic, but unfortunately we all know its true.

[scm5]

Depends on how Kobe wins.

If he's putting up 30/6/6 on 46% FG while Lebron puts up something like 24/7/7 on 48% in what would be normally a great performance for most players, but not for the likes of superstars.

Then, yes. Kobe would be considered the best player again wouldn't he?

It's all in the how he did it, not in the fact that his team just beat Lebron in the Finals.

[Hands of Iron]

Lets be honest. The Heat could push the Lakers to 7 games, with Lebron averaging 34/10/8 on 54% with Wade out injured, Bosh only averaging 14/6 getting destroyed by Howard and Gasol inside, and Ray/Shard/Battier having a horrible shooting series, and with Kobe averaging 25/5/4 on 40% with Howard averaging 21/17 on 60%, Gasol averaging 19/11 on 60%, and Nash averaging 15/10 on 60/50/100, and you will have a large group of people saying Kobe is better then Lebron.

To add to that, Kobe could then have a similar series the year after to win his 7th title, and a large group of people will say he's better then Jordan.

Sad and pathetic, but unfortunately we all know its true.

Not out of the question. They'll likely win the Finals this season.

[G-Funk]

:oldlol: @ the stat whores!

Kobe was best player till 2010-2011. Only PPl who say otherwise, Are Bron, Wade, Celtic, Bulls, OKC. fans. All of whom have shyt against Kobe/Lakers. But the NBA world(players, GM's, Anaylst & Logical fans said Kobe)

[G-Funk]

I know 2 things 4 sure:

Dwight is the 3rd option on this team, So no shot @ F-MVP. 2nd, If Kobe Wins FMVP he would rank top 6 in the All-time list.

Like Mitch said, Dwight is the future, Kobe, Nash & Pau are the present.

[G-Funk]

No because lakers overall better balance would be the reason lakers would beat Miami.

Lebron is the best in the game him losing wont change that

unless Lebron lays an egg in the 4th once again! :oldlol:

[b1imtf]

Did LeBron outplay Durant (30.6 ppg 54.8%FG .394 3PT% ) in the Finals?
Umm... Yes

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Umm... Yes

Its funny how Lebron>Kobe while Kobe was stacking rings due to stats yet LeBron>Durant due to :confusedshrug:

[Hands of Iron]

:oldlol: @ the stat whores!

Kobe was best player till 2010-2011.

Kobe was pretty exceptional in leading the Lakers to the Finals from 2008-10. Enough to make a pretty damn good claim. I remember considering him the best without question in the 2008 playoffs, doing enough to maintain it through 09 despite Lebron's eruption and without a doubt in 2010 after the Game 5 debacle especially. Then Kobe went and had one of his best series ever against the Suns. I know I wasn't thinking about his shooting percentage in the Game 6 close out. However, for the series: 34/7/8 on 52%.

[guy]

:oldlol: @ the stat whores!

Kobe was best player till 2010-2011. Only PPl who say otherwise, Are Bron, Wade, Celtic, Bulls, OKC. fans. All of whom have shyt against Kobe/Lakers. But the NBA world(players, GM's, Anaylst & Logical fans said Kobe)

Kobe has absolutely no case as the best player or better then Lebron in 2011. Absolutely none. And the only reason he's arguably better then Lebron in 2010 was cause of the egg Lebron dropped in that Celtics series.

[guy]

Its funny how Lebron>Kobe while Kobe was stacking rings due to stats yet LeBron>Durant due to :confusedshrug:

Durant isn't better then Lebron statistically??:confusedshrug:

[b1imtf]

Its funny how Lebron>Kobe while Kobe was stacking rings due to stats yet LeBron>Durant due to :confusedshrug:
LeBron .472/.188/.826 44.0 28.6/10.2/7.4/1.6/0.4

Durant .548/.394/.839 42.6 30.6/6.0/2.2/1.4/1.0

Durant scored better but that was it... And LeBron played better defense

[longhornfan1234]

I think Howard will outplay Kobe in the finals. Heat have no one to guard Howard. Wade and LeBron can take turns guarding Kobe.

[greymatter]

i'd be willing to bet 500$ american on paypal that kobe outperforms dwight and takes hom finals mvp if the lakers won the title

you down?

Everyone already knows a bet with you is useless and that you'd never pony up. You'd be looking to add more stipulations not 5 minutes later if anyone took you up on that bet.

[Mr Exlax]

My question is what the hell do people look at when comparing two players over the course of a season? I mean, that's what stats are for right? They're gonna be 75% of the conversation. That's the only way to measure.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

LeBron .472/.188/.826 44.0 28.6/10.2/7.4/1.6/0.4

Durant .548/.394/.839 42.6 30.6/6.0/2.2/1.4/1.0

Durant scored better but that was it... And LeBron played better defense

Scored more, more efficient, more blocks, didn't allow LeBron to make 55% of his shots :confusedshrug:

[Mr Exlax]

Scored more, more efficient, more blocks, didn't allow LeBron to make 55% of his shots :confusedshrug:

Didn't they have the witness protection program for Durant in the 4th quarter of every game that series? :no:

[KG215]

Scored more, more efficient, more blocks, didn't allow LeBron to make 55% of his shots :confusedshrug:
Dude, just stop. Stop being a stats whore. LeBron outplayed Durant and LeBron is the unquestioned best player in the league.

[guy]

Scored more, more efficient, more blocks, didn't allow LeBron to make 55% of his shots :confusedshrug:

Wow did you just do that? So you bring up the .6 more blocks Durant had, but ignore +5 apg and +4 rpg that Lebron had?

Anyway, its not just about the matchup. When Lebron and Kobe are compared statistically, its overall since they never faced each other, and Lebron was better in almost every single category. For the season, playoffs, and Finals this year, Lebron AT WORST was equal to Durant statistically, probably better in most cases. I don't think stats tell the whole story in any comparison, but thats a stupid argument you brought up. The Lebron/Kobe comparisons and the Lebron/Durant comparisons are completely different.

[Hands of Iron]

Exactly. The "Hakeem obliterated Shaq" myth has gotten a little too out of hand over the years. Yes, if you watch the games, like the '12 Finals, Hakeem outplayed Shaq, but not probably not the same mythical proportions some of have built up in their heads. It was just a young Shaq, who was having commitment and discipline problems on defense, while just out-athleting you on offense. He was still a little too young and hadn't learned, just yet, how to win.

jlauber made a thread a while back pointing out how so many all-time greats reached their statistical peaks in their early and mid-20s. Of course he was using that to claim it was the actual peak of the players, but it did open my eyes to something. Other posters pointed out that those players didn't reach their true peak until age 27 (give or take a year) when they put everything together and learned how to win.

Yeah, I've probably spent more time defending Shaq on the topic on here than the opposite. It seems people will either go with one extreme or the other with neither being all that close to accurate. The Nick Anderson incident I don't think can be downplayed; It was damning, especially to such a young team's psyche. The Rockets had 'been there, done that' multiple times over, almost to a surreal extent over 1993-95 before even getting to the '95 Finals.

They went (and won) a deciding Game 5 against the Clippers in the '93 first round, fell 3-2 to the Sonics in the semis, winning Game 6 and likely robbed out of Game 7 in a raucous atmosphere on the road; Fell 0-2 to the Suns in the '94 semis before winning the next two on Phoenix's home floor and taking Game 7, fell 3-2 against the Knicks in the Finals before taking the series in Game 7; fell 2-1 in the first round against Utah in 1995 before taking Games 4 and 5 (on the road); fell 3-1 to the Suns the very next series before winning three straight (two on the road) including Game 7 in Phoenix. All in all, faced elimination 11 times over a three-year span and won 10 of them and really probably should've been 11-for-11. Orlando wasn't in any type of shape to even 'dream' about dealing with Houston from a mentality and experience perspective. You give those Rockets any chance of life or wiggle room and they will absolutely slit your throat and bury you, without question. After they came back from a 3-1 series deficit without HCA... Spurs and Magic were already toast.

[Hands of Iron]

^^^ Olajuwon's numbers over those elimination games if anybody was curious: 29.3 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 4.9 apg, 3.1 bpg on 52.0% FG

[crisoner]

The only man who can stop Kobe is Kobe

http://www.slamonline.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/126kobe_0409.jpg

:hammerhead: :hammerhead: :hammerhead: :hammerhead: :hammerhead:

The only man who can stop LeBron is Dirk

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3368/5817561349_049dca1620.jpg

[tmacattack33]

I have no clue what is happening in this thread, but briefly read the last page, and LOL at the person trying to say Lebron did not outplay Durant in the Finals.

1. When Durant was guarding Lebron, Lebron straight up roasted Durant from what I remember (i may be slightly wrong because i don't have a photographic memory, but for the most part i believe i am correct).

I can specifically remember Lebron blowing by Durant very easily on two or three straight iso possessions in game 2 I think. After that, Scottie brooks had seen enough... I don't think Durant guarded Lebron again in that game

2. Sure, Durant may have scored more and done so more efficiently. That's one aspect of the game. And one that we already know Durant the best in the league in.

Durant had 11 assists...no, not in game 1 or game 2, I'm talking about the whole series.

3. Lebron's all around game was magnificent.





Lebron played better than Durant. Anyone who says otherwise is straight up delusional.

[RRR3]

Durant is an odd player. Once he has the ball, pretty much no one can block him, but he has trouble getting open a lot of the time. During the finals, there were stretches I almost forgot about Durant, and then he'd score about 10 points in 2 minutes. Honestly, it seemed like Durant would have 3 or so spurts during each game he'd score 8-12 points, but otherwise he'd be quiet. This wasn't true so much against the Lakers or Mavericks from what I saw, but Durant's scoring is often "quiet", if you can believe that. I still think he's a top 3 player in the NBA, and the best scorer in the world, but Westbrook scares me a lot more when he has the ball for the most part. Durant annoys me when I'm cheering against the Thunder in that he makes crazy shots, but he only truly scares me in close games in the 4th quarter, because when it comes to down one or two shots, he's your man. IDK Durant puzzles me, he needs to further improve on some other aspects of his game.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I don't know why you guys are upset.

Two pages ago you were talking about Lebron being better than Kobe while he was stacking MVP, Finals MVPs and rings because CHECK THE STATS and now I am "delusional" for pointing out the stats of Durant vs LeBron in the Finals.

It's take some balls to be the that transparent and naive. The hyperbole surrounding this man knows no limit. Nobody can tell me who he guarded (frankly the Thunders on offense did more than enough to win 4 out of the 5 games) and his 7.4 assists a game (with his role players being on fire) are hardly "magnificent".

:applause:

[Smoke117]

Again he wouldn't lose to Kobe, he'd lose to Dwight. Realistically though, The Miami Heat would lose to the Lakers, thus making the Lakers the best team in the sport. I know this is hard for you to get choking on Kobe's phallus at the same time, but this is team sport kenneth.

[tmacattack33]

I don't know why you guys are upset.

Two pages ago you were talking about Lebron being better than Kobe while he was stacking MVP, Finals MVPs and rings because CHECK THE STATS and now I am "delusional" for pointing out the stats of Durant vs LeBron in the Finals.

It's take some balls to be the that transparent and naive. The hyperbole surrounding this man knows no limit. Nobody can tell me who he guarded (frankly the Thunders on offense did more than enough to win 4 out of the 5 games) and his 7.4 assists a game (with his role players being on fire) are hardly "magnificent".

:applause:

They don't call an assist and assist unless the player has a clear advantage at the time he catches the ball.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOausr_ja1k

I tracked all 12 Assists (more than Durant had in the whole series...lol):

-CB open off screen movement
-CB cuttin...open layup
-mario open for 3
-coles open for 3
-outlet to wade...WIDE open layup
-j jones WIDE open for 3
-mario WIDE open
-CB does some pump fake work for layup (this is the only shot here where the receiver deserves as much or more credit as the passer..and still though, as i said, it would not have been counted as an assist if CB didn't have an advantage when he caught the ball)
- ridiculous touch pass to Wade..open 3 foot banker under rim
- pass to open mario..no one near mario...open lane to basket
-WIDE open mario for 3


It would not take a Ray Allen to make those shots. Some were layups first of all, and all the threes were wide open.

Also, this does not mean Lebron only had 12 good passes the whole game. An assist leading to FTs does not get counted as an assist...an assist leading to an assist is not counted as an assist (as it is in hockey)...an assist leading to a missed shot does not get counted, etc.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

They don't call an assist and assist unless the player has a clear advantage at the time he catches the ball.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOausr_ja1k

I tracked all 12 Assists (more than Durant had in the whole series...lol):

-CB open off screen movement
-CB cuttin...open layup
-mario open for 3
-coles open for 3
-outlet to wade...WIDE open layup
-j jones WIDE open for 3
-mario WIDE open
-CB does some pump fake work for layup (this is the only shot here where the receiver deserves as much or more credit as the passer..and still though, as i said, it would not have been counted as an assist if CB didn't have an advantage when he caught the ball)
- ridiculous touch pass to Wade..open 3 foot banker under rim
- pass to open mario..no one near mario...open lane to basket
-WIDE open mario for 3


It would not take a Ray Allen to make those shots. Some were layups first of all, and all the threes were wide open.

Also, this does not mean Lebron only had 12 good passes the whole game. An assist leading to FTs does not get counted as an assist...an assist leading to an assist is not counted as an assist (as it is in hockey)...an assist leading to a missed shot does not get counted, etc.

He didn't average 12 assists a game. :confusedshrug:

[tmacattack33]

He didn't average 12 assists a game. :confusedshrug:

Yes, I know.

If we were going to discuss his assists, i'd rather show you one of the videos that includes the highest amount of them.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Yes, I know.

If we were going to discuss his assists, i'd rather show you the video that includes the highest amount of them.

Well you didn't even get that right. He had 13 the following game and averaged just 4 the first 3 games. :confusedshrug:

[tmacattack33]

Well you didn't even get that right. He had 13 the following game and averaged just 4 the first 3 games. :confusedshrug:

If pointing that out is seriously your response, i guess i won the argument.

[KG215]

I don't know why you guys are upset.

Two pages ago you were talking about Lebron being better than Kobe while he was stacking MVP, Finals MVPs and rings because CHECK THE STATS and now I am "delusional" for pointing out the stats of Durant vs LeBron in the Finals.

It's take some balls to be the that transparent and naive. The hyperbole surrounding this man knows no limit. Nobody can tell me who he guarded (frankly the Thunders on offense did more than enough to win 4 out of the 5 games) and his 7.4 assists a game (with his role players being on fire) are hardly "magnificent".

:applause:

Who was the best player in the league last season and who was the best player in the Finals in your opinion?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

If pointing that out is seriously your response, i guess i won the argument.

What is there to argue? You are impressed easily. 7.4 assists per game is good to great ...... its just not "magnificent" by any reasonable use of the word.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Who was the best player in the league last season and who was the best player in the Finals in your opinion?

Probably LeBron for both. But, he didn't outplay Durant in the Finals. :confusedshrug:

[tmacattack33]

What is there to argue? You are impressed easily. 7.4 assists per game is good to great ...... its just not "magnificent" by any reasonable use of the word.

I said his all-around game was magnificent.

27 pts, 11.5 reb, 7.4 assists, on good efficiency and good clutch play is certainly magnificent.

[KG215]

Probably LeBron for both. But, he didn't outplay Durant in the Finals. :confusedshrug:

There's no probably about it. And yes, LeVrob outplayed Durant. You either didn't watch the series or you're blinded by your Kobe love to give LeBron the credit he deserves.

[tmacattack33]

Here's a well written article about the subject.

And its argument is a lot better than YaoMingsFoot's, which thus far seems to be:

1. Kevin Durant scored better than Lebron.

2. Eh, Lebron's 7.4 assists were not too impressive since his teammates were on fire ( a point which i already disproved, with actual evidence that shows that Lebron's teammates were given very easy looks from Lebron's passes...Foot's only response to my video was "Why did you choose that game (game 4)?" ..."Oh, it was his highest assist total game you say? Nope, you're wrong, Game 5 beats it by 1 assist").





http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1228835-2012-nba-finals-lebron-james-is-proving-he-is-better-than-kevin-durant

"Three-time MVP vs three-time league scoring champion.

It was David Stern's dream scenario, the two premier players going head to head in the NBA Finals. Throughout the year and throughout the playoffs, the discussion of best player in the world has centered around James and Durant.

Plenty of people picked James and some took Durant, and the general consensus was whoever won the matchup between these two superstars would also walk away with this year's Larry O'Brien trophy.

With four games over, it looks like the winner of this matchup is going to win it all, as LeBron James has thoroughly dominated Kevin Durant so far.

With the exception of Game 1 when the Heat walked into the Chesapeake Arena woefully unprepared, LeBron has made Durant look very much like the inferior player. While the stats may show something different, watching the way LeBron controls the game has exposed the holes in Durant's game.

Durant has scored more than LeBron, but he has done little to anything else in this series. This all came to the forefront in Tuesday night's pivotal Game 4. While both players got their points, LeBron was in charge of the game from the start while Durant seemed to go minutes at a time without making any impact.

Perhaps the most telling stat in the game was that the 6'11'' Durant, complete with great hops and a 7'4'' wingspan, could only manage two rebounds, none of which came until the 11:26 mark of the fourth quarter. LeBron, on the other hand, has dominated the boards, averaging over 10 per game in the Finals.

146490152_crop_exact LeBron has always looked to involve his teammates
Ronald Martinez/Getty Images

Another aspect of the game in which Durant is failing to make an impact is getting his teammates involved. While Durant has never been the greatest of passers, he showed great potential in the final few games of the San Antonio series, repeatedly setting up Serge Ibaka, Thabo Sefolosha and others for easy, wide-open shots. Unfortunately for him and the Thunder, his ability to make decisive passes has been missing in the Finals, averaging just two assists per game including an 0-fer in Game 3. James, meanwhile, has continually involved his teammate,s culminating in a virtuoso 12-assist performance in Game 4.

Game 4 was a perfect example of how Durant has struggled to be effective when he isn't shooting the basketball and how LeBron can be. With Ibaka and James Harden struggling, Durant failed to provide them with easy looks while LeBron served up gimme's to struggling guards Mario Chalmers and Norris Cole.

Rebounding, getting teammates involved and defense are all important facets of the game in which Durant isn't contributing well enough for the Thunder, while James has been a complete player throughout the Finals. And with Durant barely outscoring James through four games, the matchup which so many thought would be even has turned dramatically in LeBron's favor.

What separated the great players like Jordan, Magic, Duncan and Bird was their ability to affect games in multiple ways. Whether it was through scoring, rebounding, passing or lockdown defense, they did multiple things to ensure victory. LeBron's ability to switch between MJ mode and Magic mode—to be a scorer one quarter and a facilitator the next—is what makes him one of the greatest to lace 'em up. If Durant wants to eventually be in this class, he will have to learn to dominate without scoring all the time.

Durant is only in his fifth year, so it will take him time to fully develop his skill set like LeBron, so it may be unfair to judge him so harshly. But just like any superstar, the spotlight and adulation of being one of the best in the game comes with expectations, expectations that Kevin Durant is not living up to.

I believe that Kevin Durant will someday become the best player in the league, but for the time being, the debate over who is the best player in the world starts at LeBron James.

And it ends there as well. "

[DatAsh]

I don't know why you guys are upset.

Two pages ago you were talking about Lebron being better than Kobe while he was stacking MVP, Finals MVPs and rings because CHECK THE STATS and now I am "delusional" for pointing out the stats of Durant vs LeBron in the Finals.

It's take some balls to be the that transparent and naive. The hyperbole surrounding this man knows no limit. Nobody can tell me who he guarded (frankly the Thunders on offense did more than enough to win 4 out of the 5 games) and his 7.4 assists a game (with his role players being on fire) are hardly "magnificent".

:applause:

It's a bit different though since Lebron actually had better stats than Durant. 2 more ppg on 7% better efficiency does not make up for 5+ assists and 4+rebounds and much better defense.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

There's no probably about it. And yes, LeVrob outplayed Durant. You either didn't watch the series or you're blinded by your Kobe love to give LeBron the credit he deserves.

Kobe wasn't playing in the Finals. But I wonder how much traction I could get out of the idea that Kobe's superiority was based on defense if Wade put up 30 points on 55% shooting against him in a hypothetical Heat-Lakers finals.

No matter how many times you repeat that line you and I both know that just saying you watched the games and know LeBron outplayed Durant isn't presenting any sort of coherent argument.

[tmacattack33]

More video evidence to dispute the weak claim that Lebron's assists weren't so great because his teammates were on fire:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAqLNo_sJ68

That quick video shows 4 or 5 of Lebron's assists. All are to three pointers. In only one was the shot semi contested...Miller's over Fisher's...and I'm being generous, Miller had good space there and he's 8 inches taller than Fisher.

Eh, upon second look Battier's was semi contested...and the Miller one was pretty much wide open.

[DatAsh]

No matter how many times you repeat that line you and I both know that just saying you watched the games and know LeBron outplayed Durant isn't presenting any sort of coherent argument.

It's true though. Anyone who watched that series knows that Lebron outplayed Durant. I've never really seen anyone say otherwise until now.

[KyrieTheFuture]

I wasn't aware that a player being talented enough to draw a double team makes their assist to the open man worthless. That's great logic.

[Lebron23]

I wasn't aware that a player being talented enough to draw a double team makes their assist to the open man worthless. That's great logic.


Some of these trolls didn't play organized basketball.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

More video evidence to dispute the weak claim that Lebron's assists weren't so great because his teammates were on fire:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAqLNo_sJ68

That quick video shows 4 or 5 of Lebron's assists. All are to three pointers. In only one was the shot semi contested...Miller's over Fisher's...and I'm being generous, Miller had good space there and he's 8 inches taller than Fisher.

Eh, upon second look Battier's was semi contested...and the Miller one was pretty much wide open.

I never said Lebron's assists weren't great. I said that even with teammates hitting more 3 pointers than normal he still averaged about 7 a game. If Battier isn't shooting like Kerr that 7 turns to 6 pretty easily. :confusedshrug:

[KG215]

Kobe wasn't playing in the Finals. But I wonder how much traction I could get out of the idea that Kobe's superiority was based on defense if Wade put up 30 points on 55% shooting against him in a hypothetical Heat-Lakers finals.
That's not all I or others can use to get traction for the argument. All you're wanting to do is look at the stats, yet you continue to ignore the assists and rebounds and, when someone brings it up, you try to poke holes in why his 10+ rpg and 7+ apg weren't really that impressive due to his role on the team.


No matter how many times you repeat that line you and I both know that just saying you watched the games and know LeBron outplayed Durant isn't presenting any sort of coherent argument.
You're right. And you can keep acting like you're argument is superior (as you always do) because you're backing yours up with stats. I guess there's never been a playoff series or Finals where the numbers, box scores, etc. don't tell the whole story. We can get all we need from going to basketball-reference.

God man, you really can't be that ignorant can you? There's countless examples where you can say the best player on one team outplayed the best player on the other team despite similar or nearly identical stats.

[KG215]

I never said Lebron's assists weren't great. I said that even with teammates hitting more 3 pointers than normal he still averaged about 7 a game. If Battier isn't shooting like Kerr that 7 turns to 6 pretty easily. :confusedshrug:

Which is still 4 more per game than Durant.

And if John Paxson doesn't shoot some ridiculous percentage on jumpers in the NBA Finals, Jordan's APG go from 11 to 9 or 10 pretty easily. The player shouldn't be discredited because his teammates were hitting wide-open jumpers he created with penetration and being a big scoring threat. You know the saying "We'll let everyone but _____(insert name of best player on the team) beat us"? Well, that's pretty much what this is. The Lakers were collapsing and helping on Jordan when he penetrated, giving Paxson wide-open jumpers and he hit them. Same thing with LeBron and Battier.

[DatAsh]

God man, you really can't be that ignorant can you? There's countless examples where you can say the best player on one team outplayed the best player on the other team despite similar or nearly identical stats.

If stats were all that mattered, no one would give two licks about Bill Russell.

[tmacattack33]

I never said Lebron's assists weren't great. I said that even with teammates hitting more 3 pointers than normal he still averaged about 7 a game. If Battier isn't shooting like Kerr that 7 turns to 6 pretty easily. :confusedshrug:

Battier hits open shots, that's what he does on offense.

And that's what Mike Miller does too. It's about time he started hitting them in the Finals...though he does have a good excuse (his injuries).

[KG215]

It's true though. Anyone who watched that series knows that Lebron outplayed Durant. I've never really seen anyone say otherwise until now.

It's pointless. He's got his mind made up and, because he's using stats, he thinks his argument is bulletproof. It's the same song different verse than the many DRtg arguments he's been in.

This feels weird, too. If anything, I'm a Durant fanboy. OKC is my favorite team and Durant is my favorite player. But now I'm having to defend the player who beat them in the Finals to some moron who is too dense to understand the stats don't always tell the whole story.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Battier hits open shots, that's what he does on offense.

And that's what Mike Miller does too. It's about time he started hitting them in the Finals...though he does have a good excuse (his injuries).

Battier and Mike Miller have had similar scoring opportunities (wide open) the entire season.

[tmacattack33]

Some more video evidence...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2U9x2d8D94


Probably Durant's best quarter in the series ...Lebron wasn't even in the game during a third of it and when he was he wasn't on Durant.

So, if YaoMingFoot's argument consists of Durant shooting well over Lebron (which i can't really tell, Foot's argument doesn't seem to consist of much of anything really), this video takes away 16 or so points away from contention in that regard.

I'll be leaving now, but I'll be back and may post some more evidence...not really for Foot, because i don't even know what his argument is, but just for future reference.

[tmacattack33]

Battier and Mike Miller have had similar scoring opportunities (wide open) the entire season.

Yes, thank you for pointing out how they did not live up to their shooting standards until the Finals.

Miller was paid a lot of money and was kept on the team (he could have been amnestied last year) to hit open shots. In the Finals, he finally did that.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

It's pointless. He's got his mind made up and, because he's using stats, he thinks his argument is bulletproof. It's the same song different verse than the many DRtg arguments he's been in.

This feels weird, too. If anything, I'm a Durant fanboy. OKC is my favorite team and Durant is my favorite player. But now I'm having to defend the player who beat them in the Finals to some moron who is too dense to understand the stats don't always tell the whole story.

Tell the whole story then. Describe Lebron James' impact on defense. IN what games did the Thunder struggle? Who was he guarding and why?

We are not getting anywhere because as soon I ask for details you revert back to the standby "you didn't watch the games" nonsense. I'm asking you for more information that is not within the box scores and you have given me nothing.

[KG215]

Tell the whole story then. Describe Lebron James' impact on defense. IN what games did the Thunder struggle? Who was he guarding and why?

We are not getting anywhere because as soon I ask for details you revert back to the standby "you didn't watch the games" nonsense.

I'm not saying defense is the only reason LeBron outplayed Durant dumbass. I've said that several times. Try to find anyone that will tell you LeBron didn't outplay Durant in the Finals.

We're not getting anywhere because you're too ignorant to understand that, yes, the "you didn't watch the games" nonsense applies here as it has many times in NBA Finals/playoffs history.

You're the epitome of a stats whore. You want to believe only what they tell you and nothing else. That's not how basketball (or sports for that matter) works. You've got this air of superiority about you because you think all of your stats based arguments are flawless, and that's just not the case.

You can keep calling what I'm saying is "nonsense" and belittling me by saying we can't get anywhere because of it, but I'm not changing my stance because it applies here.

Not to mention the only thing Durant did in the boxscore better than LeBron was score on better efficiency. I don't even understand how this is an argument. Like DatAsh said, you're the first person I've seen try and argue this.

[Hands of Iron]

I don't think he's even arguing it. He's pointing out what he views as hypocrisy in regards to Kobe and Lebron for 2009/2010.

[kNicKz]

i'd be willing to bet 500$ american on paypal that kobe outperforms dwight and takes hom finals mvp if the lakers won the title

you down?

let's be honest, neither of u are shipping off that 500 :coleman:

[Hands of Iron]

I'm not saying defense is the only reason LeBron outplayed Durant dumbass. I've said that several times. Try to find anyone that will tell you LeBron didn't outplay Durant in the Finals.

We're not getting anywhere because you're too ignorant to understand that, yes, the "you didn't watch the games" nonsense applies here as it has many times in NBA Finals/playoffs history.

You're the epitome of a stats whore. You want to believe only what they tell you and nothing else. That's not how basketball (or sports for that matter) works. You've got this air of superiority about you because you think all of your stats based arguments are flawless, and that's just not the case.

You can keep calling what I'm saying is "nonsense" and belittling me by saying we can't get anywhere because of it, but I'm not changing my stance because it applies here.

Not to mention the only thing Durant did in the boxscore better than LeBron was score on better efficiency. I don't even understand how this is an argument. Like DatAsh said, you're the first person I've seen try and argue this.

That's because SKILLS PAY THE BILLS.

Throw out all the stats. Olajuwon Best Center Ever. :bowdown: :D

You couldn't pretend to mark down a flaw if you had a white board and Three XL Permanent Red Markers.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I'm not saying defense is the only reason LeBron outplayed Durant dumbass. I've said that several times. Try to find anyone that will tell you LeBron didn't outplay Durant in the Finals.

Assists and rebounds are in the box scores. Only defense is not. I ask for an expansion of LeBron's defensive impact and get nothing in return. I don't know what else to do. :confusedshrug:


We're not getting anywhere because you're too ignorant to understand that, yes, the "you didn't watch the games" nonsense applies here as it has many times in NBA Finals/playoffs history.

It doesn't apply because I did watch the games. :confusedshrug:


You're the epitome of a stats whore. You want to believe only what they tell you and nothing else. That's not how basketball (or sports for that matter) works. You've got this air of superiority about you because you think all of your stats based arguments are flawless, and that's just not the case.

I've asked for more information other than the stats numerous times including the post you just quoted while ignoring the request. :oldlol:



You can keep calling what I'm saying is "nonsense" and belittling me by saying we can't get anywhere because of it, but I'm not changing my stance because it applies here.

Its nonsense to claim I didn't watch the games. I did. :confusedshrug:


Not to mention the only thing Durant did in the boxscore better than LeBron was score on better efficiency. I don't even understand how this is an argument. Like DatAsh said, you're the first person I've seen try and argue this.[

Look up "Argumentum ad Populum". By stating that other people share your argument doesn't make it a valid one. As an example the argument for Kobe as the GOAT remains the same if one person believes it or 10 million.

[tmacattack33]

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=320617014

"LeBron James was the primary defender on Kevin Durant in Game 3 after Shane Battier filled the role the first two games. James struggled to contain Durant in the first three quarters, but held him to 1-of-5 shooting in the fourth. Shane Battier guarded Durant on just one shot attempt (0-1) in Game 3. In the first two games of the series, Battier guarded Durant on 17 field goal attempts, the most by any Heat defender. However, Durant was 11-of-17 against Battier, scoring 30 points (including free throws)"

Game 3 was Durant's worst game...25 points on 19 shots, 0 assists, and 5 turnovers.

0 assists. Yup, you ready that correctly. 5 turnovers too.

Good job Lebron.

And as u can see, he was 1-5 when it mattered most.

[Nevaeh]

Durant is an odd player. Once he has the ball, pretty much no one can block him, but he has trouble getting open a lot of the time. During the finals, there were stretches I almost forgot about Durant, and then he'd score about 10 points in 2 minutes. Honestly, it seemed like Durant would have 3 or so spurts during each game he'd score 8-12 points, but otherwise he'd be quiet. This wasn't true so much against the Lakers or Mavericks from what I saw, but Durant's scoring is often "quiet", if you can believe that. I still think he's a top 3 player in the NBA, and the best scorer in the world, but Westbrook scares me a lot more when he has the ball for the most part. Durant annoys me when I'm cheering against the Thunder in that he makes crazy shots, but he only truly scares me in close games in the 4th quarter, because when it comes to down one or two shots, he's your man. IDK Durant puzzles me, he needs to further improve on some other aspects of his game.

You hit the nail on the head, right here. People tend to forget that Durant is a young player who's still "finding his game", but it's also on the coach to best utilize his abilities as well. You say that he plays a "quiet" game and I agree. But there were times in the Finals where Durant would have a couple of "Blow-By" dunks with ease, where I'd be thinking " Why don't OKC go to that more often"?

The plus side is that he still has a lot of time to improve and enhance his game. He still bites on pump-fakes, which is strange given his size and arm length, but I'm sure he'll begin to master his timing defensively. Crazy as it sounds, I don't think we've come close to seeing "Beast Mode" Durant yet.

[KG215]

Assists and rebounds are in the box scores. Only defense is not. I ask for an expansion of LeBron's defensive impact and get nothing in return. I don't know what else to do. :confusedshrug:



It doesn't apply because I did watch the games. :confusedshrug:



I've asked for more information other than the stats numerous times including the post you just quoted while ignoring the request. :oldlol:



Its nonsense to claim I didn't watch the games. I did. :confusedshrug:



Look up "Argumentum ad Populum". By stating that other people share your argument doesn't make it a valid one. As an example the argument for Kobe as the GOAT remains the same if one person believes it or 10 million.

Look, I don't have a cut-and-dry black-and-white answer for you. I don't know what you want me to say. We both watched the games and, after that, if you still felt Durant played as well as LeBron or even outplayed LeBron, then I can't help you. He didn't. Period.

And you're right, people agreeing with me doesn't make my argument valid. I didn't say it was "valid" or right. However, it should say soething about your arguments that, more times than not, no one agrees with you.

And thank you tmacattack. I knew I wasn't crazy. I couldn't remember what games or quarters Battier guarded Durant, but knew he spent enough time defending him. Game 3 certainly helps LeBron's case. Primary defender on Durant in his worst game of the series. He did get a respectable 25 points on 11/19 shooting (and I'm sure Yao Ming's Foot will harp on that) but that was the game I remember Durant's impact being minimal.

[tmacattack33]

Some more evidence: https://twitter.com/tom/status/212910484876300289

A tweet from ESPN's tom haberstroh on june 12...

"ESPN tracking: Durant scored just 2 pts on 0/2 shooting when guarded by LeBron. Everyone else? 34 pts on 12/18 shooting. "


I watched the games myself and i didn't take notes or anything, but overall i believe Lebron did a decent job on Durant and did the best job on him. So any quotes I find like the above are not surprising to me.

[Nevaeh]

Some more evidence: https://twitter.com/tom/status/212910484876300289

A tweet from ESPN's tom haberstroh on june 12...

"ESPN tracking: Durant scored just 2 pts on 0/2 shooting when guarded by LeBron. Everyone else? 34 pts on 12/18 shooting. "


I watched the games myself and i didn't take notes or anything, but overall i believe Lebron did a decent job on Durant and did the best job on him. So any quotes I find like the above are not surprising to me.

YMF is acting like Lebron guarded Durant during the whole series, which is simply not the case. That's why his argument is coming off so flawed. LBJ guarded Durant in spurts, because the Heat needed his point production, assists and rebounding if they had a chance at winning, which is exactly what he provided.

He's trying to sell his argument as if they went One-on- One the entire series, with Durant burning LBJ play after play, making LBJ a defensive liability or something. Now, had he said the HEAT allowed Durant to go off offensively, he'd have a point. But like always, he simply believes his own nonsense, even if evidence shoots holes in his arguments thread after thread.

[BrickingStar]

The only man who can stop Kobe is Kobe

http://www.slamonline.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/126kobe_0409.jpg

:hammerhead: :hammerhead: :hammerhead: :hammerhead: :hammerhead:

The only man who can stop LeBron is Dirk

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3368/5817561349_049dca1620.jpg
of course kobe can stop kobe he choked his team out of the OKC series remember?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Look, I don't have a cut-and-dry black-and-white answer for you. I don't know what you want me to say. We both watched the games and, after that, if you still felt Durant played as well as LeBron or even outplayed LeBron, then I can't help you. He didn't. Period.

And you're right, people agreeing with me doesn't make my argument valid. I didn't say it was "valid" or right. However, it should say soething about your arguments that, more times than not, no one agrees with you.

And thank you tmacattack. I knew I wasn't crazy. I couldn't remember what games or quarters Battier guarded Durant, but knew he spent enough time defending him. Game 3 certainly helps LeBron's case. Primary defender on Durant in his worst game of the series. He did get a respectable 25 points on 11/19 shooting (and I'm sure Yao Ming's Foot will harp on that) but that was the game I remember Durant's impact being minimal.

I genuinely couldn't care less if people agree with me or not. Most people on this board are illiterate children. I care about the strength of my argument.

My point is if Lebron wasn't guarding Durant because he was needed to do other things and that's perfectly fine. But then don't later tell me that LeBron outplayed Durant based on defense. It doesn't add up. Game 3 was the only game the Thunder failed to score near their playoff/regular season offensive efficiency averages. The Heat defense was unremarkable.

[KG215]

I genuinely couldn't care less if people agree with me or not. Most people on this board are illiterate children. I care about the strength of my argument.

My point is if Lebron wasn't guarding Durant because he was needed to do other things and that's perfectly fine. But then don't later tell me that LeBron outplayed Durant based on defense. It doesn't add up. Game 3 was the only game the Thunder failed to score near their playoff/regular season offensive efficiency averages. The Heat defense was unremarkable.

And for like the 30th time, I wasn't basing my argument solely on LeBron playing better defense than Durant. He did, but that wasn't the sole basis for my argument.

And what does that game 3 say about LeBron's impact? Since he was the primary defender of Durant who had 25 points and 0 assists and, like you said, the Thunder failed tos core near their playoff/regular season offensive efficiency?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

And for like the 30th time, I wasn't basing my argument solely on LeBron playing better defense than Durant. He did, but that wasn't the sole basis for my argument.

And what does that game 3 say about LeBron's impact? Since he was the primary defender of Durant who had 25 points and 0 assists and, like you said, the Thunder failed tos core near their playoff/regular season offensive efficiency?

It says he wasn't responsible for Durant's teammates shooting 22 for 58 (38% FG) for the game. :confusedshrug:

Am I supposed to attribute the misses of players LeBron explicitly didn't guard to him because he was too busy "shutting down" Durant to 25 points on 58% shooting?

[guy]

I don't think he's even arguing it. He's pointing out what he views as hypocrisy in regards to Kobe and Lebron for 2009/2010.

And thats completely stupid of him to think that way since its not exactly a black and white argument. Its especially stupid since Lebron was arguably, and most likely, statistically superior in the Finals and playoffs and clearly statistically superior in the regular season to Durant while also having more team success. Completely different from the Kobe comparison where Lebron was clearly statistically superior at all points but had less team success.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

And thats completely stupid of him to think that way since its not exactly a black and white argument. Its especially stupid since Lebron was arguably, and most likely, statistically superior in the Finals and playoffs and clearly statistically superior in the regular season to Durant while also having more team success. Completely different from the Kobe comparison where Lebron was clearly statistically superior at all points but had less team success.

I never said Durant was better than LeBron. I said had the Thunder won it would have been an opinion of many people. I simply said LeBron did not outplay Durant in the Finals.

[HardwoodLegend]

of course kobe can stop kobe he choked his team out of the OKC series remember?
:roll:

[Smoke117]

:roll:


Kobe stopping Kobe since 1997 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXOOSOuatwM) :roll:

[Cali Syndicate]

A question for Yao Ming's foot, has Lebron outplayed Kobe throughout his career head to head?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

A question for Yao Ming's foot, has Lebron outplayed Kobe throughout his career head to head?

Probably has better numbers and more wins, though none were in the playoffs of course.

[KG215]

It says he wasn't responsible for Durant's teammates shooting 22 for 58 (38% FG) for the game. :confusedshrug:

Am I supposed to attribute the misses of players LeBron explicitly didn't guard to him because he was too busy "shutting down" Durant to 25 points on 58% shooting?

Yes, because it was an empty 25 points and he had zero assists, which means he wasn't providing many opportunities for his teammates. Obviously he passed the ball some, and his teammates didn't didn't make the shots.

I'm trying to figure out if you're finding all these flimsy work-around arguments because you truly belive Durant played as well (or did he outplay?) as LeBron in the Finals, or if you are doing so because your Kobe love keeps you from wanting to give LeBron his proper credit.

[juju151111]

Lebron James was better then Kobe in 09,11, and 12

[Cali Syndicate]

Probably has better numbers and more wins, though none were in the playoffs of course.

So that's a yes? Lebron has outplayed Kobe through their careers?

And yes, none were in the playoffs. All regular season. But then why do you use regular season stats to prove playoff statistics?

Every team steps their game up during the playoffs. What happens during the regular season does not necessarily predict or correlate to what will or has happened in the playoffs.

[KG215]

I never said Durant was better than LeBron. I said had the Thunder won it would have been an opinion of many people. I simply said LeBron did not outplay Durant in the Finals.

Part of this post I can actually agree with. Durant was starting to get "better than LeBron' hype heading into the Finals. Of course it was mostly due to some of his spectacular fourth quarter play in the previous rounds (go-ahead/game winners, the 16 or 17 point 4th quarter in the WCF) while LeBron was still trying to shake the "he doesn't show-up during crunch time" stigmata; not necessarily because he was putting up better numbers or was actually a better two-way player. LeBron would still be considered the better all-around and two-way player because Durant has a lot of work to do on his defense.

Had the Thunder beat the Heat, though, there would've been some people saying he's the best player in the league. But it wouldn't be a consensus and definitely wouldn't be clear-cut. Now, though, since LeBron and the Heat won, there's really no argument; LeBron is the best player in the NBA. Durant is probably second, but there's a gap. I personally feel the gap between he and LeBron (between #1 and #2) is bigger than the gap between Durant and #3. That's highly subjective, though.

[Rysio]

if the lakers are wining the title, its pretty much a fact that kobe will be the one to get the fmvp. and kobe always has been better than lebrick and will be till the day he retires.

[arifgokcen]

if the lakers are wining the title, its pretty much a fact that kobe will be the one to get the fmvp. and kobe always has been better than lebrick and will be till the day he retires.

Dude he will be better than LEBRICK!!! after he retires.

No no no

Actually he will be better than lebron even if he dies!!!!!!!!!

[Fatstogie]

LOL huh? Id think kobe should say "thanks for another ring dwight."

however i dont think they can beat them. Lebron is just too beast. If lebron wants it i think theyre gonna take it again.

[guy]

I never said Durant was better than LeBron. I said had the Thunder won it would have been an opinion of many people. I simply said LeBron did not outplay Durant in the Finals.

It was pretty clear to anyone that was watching the series that Lebron played better, meaning he outplayed him. For the Thunder to have won, it probably would've meant Durant would've had to play better, so your point isn't that irrelevant.

Lebron was a much better rebounder and playmaker, a comparable scorer, attacked the basket and drew more fouls specifically on Durant who was plagued by foul trouble for the majority of the series, played better defense, was a better closer, and was a threat throughout games unlike Durant who had periods where he disappeared.

You bring up Durant's superior scoring numbers specifically by bringing up his 55% vs 47% FG% advantage. However, for such a small sample size that doesn't mean much. For FG/FGA, Lebron averaged about 10/22 and Durant averaged about 11/21, which doesn't mean much over a small sample size. That's not a significant advantage ESPECIALLY when the other player pretty much destroys him in every other aspect of the game.

Also, I don't think Lebron's defense was spectacular or anything, but it was effective and better then Durant's. One thing that doesn't get caught in FG% is the shots that a player does not take. Durant to only take 21 shots per game and 6 FTs per game in 43 mpg in the NBA Finals, while basically not being effective in any other aspect, is a big negative. A big reason for that was cause of Lebron's defense and because sometimes getting open is one of Durant's biggest flaws. And its a big reason it felt like he was totally invisible at times in the Finals and why Westbrook had to take over for them, game 4 especially.

[tpols]

I never said Durant was better than LeBron. I said had the Thunder won it would have been an opinion of many people. I simply said LeBron did not outplay Durant in the Finals.
Yea he did dude.. Durant MERKED Bron in the first game and everyone thought it was over.. bronnie was now KD's bitch... but then Lebron surged back and shit on Durant the last 4 games with a vengeance. KD tried playing D with his long arms instead of his feet and he kept getting punked time and time again.

Meaningless 3s at random points in the game dont dictate games. Scoring/playmaking at WILL is the most important facet of basketball and Bron is great at that. Durant is not. It's like Shawn Marion posting 20ppg lines but never being able to take over a game at once and turn the tide of momentum. Durant CAN do that but he doesnt do it nearly as often as Bron.

[tmacattack33]

I don't know why I can't find these stats for the whole series. I just keep finding them for one game or one quarter or whatever. Wtf.

But here's a tweet from ESPN Stats and Info, apparently made during game 2 right before the second quarter started...

"Lebron James 10-16 (62.5 percent) when guarded by Kevin Durant, just 3-11 (27.2 percent) when guarded by Thabo Sefolosha."

https://twitter.com/ESPNStatsInfo/status/213448492495011840



Again, this is no surprise to me. From what I remember, Lebron generally got his very easily against Durant and Scottie Brooks was forced to use Thabo a little more than usual.

[BabyBull]

I'm a Kobe fan and Kobe's reign is done. He is all-time and he is also old.